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Melody
25 Oct 2004, 10:52 AM
i found a book in a nearby library that pointed out that general relativity did not take something into account and einstein recognized it as a trouble

ima havfta look for that book again it was interesting because it seemed to meld quantum physics and general relativity via fractal geometry (all three of which i am interested in)

and it used a particular value related to the properties of scale
The book is Fractal Space-Time and Microphysics: Towards a Theory of Scale Relativity by Laurent Nottale.

From section 2.1
At small scales, the "standard model" of elementary particles, based on quantum chromodynamics and electroweakdynamics, is able to include in its framework the observed structure of elementary particles and coupling constants (i.e., charges). But it seems, up to now, unable to predict on purely theoretical grounds either the number of elementary particles, or their masses, nor the values of the fundamental couplings. This failure is certainly related to the main failure of electrodynamics (classical and quantum): the divergence of self-energy and charge at infinite energy. Renormalization was only a partial solution to the problem. By replacing in calculations the theoretical infinite charges and masses by the observed ones, it allowed physicists to predict with high precision all the other physical quatities of interest. But the problem of masses and charges was left open.

At the other end, that of very large scales, even though the current cosmological theory has known great successes, one must not forget that general relativity, being a purely local theory (its fundamental tool, the metrics element, is differential), tells us nothing about the global topology of the Universe. This is, with the problem of sources of gravitation (why does inertia curve space-time?), one of the limiting domains where general relativity is an incomplete theory, as recognized by Einstein himself: an indication of this incompleteness may be its inability to include Mach's principle, except in some particular models, while observations seem to imply that it is effectively achieved by Nature.
From section 1
Then the introduction of a Lorentz-like renormalization group, in conjunction with the breaking of the scale relativity symmetry at the de Broglie scale (transition from scale-dependence to scale-independence), leads to a demonstration of the existence of a universal, lower, limiting scale in Nature, that is invariant under dilations and plays the same role for scale as that played by the velocity of light c for motion. It is identified with the Planck scale (Λ = (ħG/c^3)^1/2 ~ 1.6 x 10^-35 m; T = Λ/c = (ħG/c^3)^1/2 ~ 5.4 x 10^-44 s), which, in such a new framework, owns all the properties of the previous perfect zero point. The de Broglie and Heisenberg relations are generalized: energy-momentum now tends to infinity when the length-time scale tends to the Planck scale. Although the largest effects of such a new structure are expected at the Planck scale, at which space-time would become totally degenerated, it also has observable consequences in the domain of energy presently accessible to experiment.
It seems good to me for various reasons, one of which is that I do not believe in "dimensions," and fractal geometry does not limit itself by integral dimensions. For example, it is possible for a fractal construct to have a dimension of 1.4. Also, I have been looking into fractal geometry since I was a twig. In addition to being pretty, it is natural.

The book covers the basics of fractal geometry, so the prerequisites are a good knowledge of quantum physics and relativity.

It seems significant to me, but I have heard nothing about this idea anywhere else. I wonder why. It could be I'm just out of the loop.

Melody
25 Oct 2004, 01:37 PM
i recognize this topic is not as accessible as has been the case with most other topics

that is fine ^_^

this is a science forum and i dont want to play around on a level which is more like observational philosophy than science

i.e. bring on the details, motherfuckers! [whilst chucking a grenade]

[this grenade kills most others]
[d'oh, lonely...]
[oh well ^_^]

Star Cannon
31 Oct 2004, 01:42 AM
Doesn't that support the idea of an upper third and fourth dimension mentioned in meta-physics?

Claverhouse
31 Oct 2004, 03:07 AM
[this grenade kills most others]


Stunned.


Claverhouse :ph34r:


[ Go on, admit it: this guy was inspired by Lovecraftian physics ].

;P

Melody
31 Oct 2004, 04:34 AM
i dunno what lovecraftian could mean... :P

Melody
31 Oct 2004, 04:48 AM
Doesn't that support the idea of an upper third and fourth dimension mentioned in meta-physics?

im confused...probably not the same...ish....

well, spacetime is a four-dimensional manifold... so its considered four dimensional in regular physics

what i mean by the dimension stuff is that i do not believe there are such things as 'dimensions'


say you have a piece of paper that is perfectly flat

so like, you could say the paper's surface is two-dimensional

but then say you draw a circle on the paper

is that circle two-dimensional?

what about a squiggly line?


what if you crumple up the paper so that it is no longer perfectly flat

is its surface still 2 dimensional?


because of these questions and the resulting thoughts, i think dimension is quite meaningless to the real world

flan2dave
31 Oct 2004, 05:45 AM
The paper is not really 2D to begin with. Kind of like how space is not really three if you demonstrate spacetime "crumpling."

That book sounds interesting, I'll get to topics like that eventually, though I'm still covering the basics. I'm not exactly as up to speed as the average physics student in their third year of college. Time to learn what inductance is, yeah? I'm familiar with quantum physics and special relativity from non-rigorous casual reads and some analysis sprinkled here and there where the mathematics isn't dificult. Would you still recommend it?

Melody
31 Oct 2004, 06:22 AM
The paper is not really 2D to begin with. Kind of like how space is not really three if you demonstrate spacetime "crumpling."

yeppers, taht's why i wroted 'perfectly flat' :D


That book sounds interesting, I'll get to topics like that eventually, though I'm still covering the basics. I'm not exactly as up to speed as the average physics student in their third year of college. Time to learn what inductance is, yeah? I'm familiar with quantum physics and special relativity from non-rigorous casual reads and some analysis sprinkled here and there where the mathematics isn't dificult. Would you still recommend it?

well... i dont understand the math ^0^

and like i've just read the introduction ^0^ cuz thats all i understand

so yeah, definitely not a 'casual' type of thingie


i just understand the general idea of it because i happen to know the general ideas of the various subjects it uses

in a lot of 'advanced' books the math is often too formal for me

because the bastards use set theory and stuff

and im like

wtf do u mean!!1

even though they usually mean the simplest things

but cuz i don't know the notation

i can't really understand without difficulty

that is why i am excited now that i have decided to get a physics phd

cuz ill learn the math

and so many more pretty books will make sense to me!!

!!!

Melody
31 Oct 2004, 06:23 AM
if you havent already, look at some books on fractal geometry

it is quite the pretty thing

Melody
31 Oct 2004, 06:24 AM
That book sounds interesting, I'll get to topics like that eventually, though I'm still covering the basics. I'm not exactly as up to speed as the average physics student in their third year of college. Time to learn what inductance is, yeah? I'm familiar with quantum physics and special relativity from non-rigorous casual reads and some analysis sprinkled here and there where the mathematics isn't dificult. Would you still recommend it?

wait...so ur a physics student? ;P

flan2dave
31 Oct 2004, 07:44 AM
Yes indeedy.

I plan on studying as many geometrically pretty branches of math as possible. I agree with you on the point physics allows you to stay close to the math if you are so inclined.

Did you change your mind about majoring in electrical engineering?

Melody
31 Oct 2004, 09:35 AM
I've been majorin' in electronics engineering... im gonna get my diploma by the end of next year

im 21

then i will start on the phys phd
of course that will probably entail getting a phys b.s.

>_>

<_<

i dunno if i posted this before, but im happy i am in electronics engineering cuz now i can like

put a bunch of inventions in my car
and stuff

and also
electronics engineering has shown me a good portion of physics from a practical angle, in particular signals and systems including application of stuff like the laplace and fourier transforms
the practical aspects of it are not what interest me, it is simply that i understand more concretely what these abstract concepts are

anyway, u would probably understand the book better than me

....

one thing that i have found peculiar is that relativity is not taught early O_O

special relativity requires nothing more than algebra

in my opinion it should be taught in high school

although they probably think it wouldnt work cuz most teachers use the

spoonfeeding method

instead of the much more powerful

socratic method

to teach >;(

flan2dave
31 Oct 2004, 06:57 PM
You're going along pretty well then. I'm on the fence about electrical engineering and physics. I'm inclined to physics because it's my fav. class this semester. I wouldn't mind playing around with cool devices either. I don't blame myself for being indecisive, the concept of a major is inherently annoying to any curious fellow.