the environment - lefties vs. righties

[SerenusZ]

All name calling aside, does anyone have any thoughts on the ideological disconnect between liberals and conservatives with regards to the environment? 50% of the country (sorry, the U.S.) can't be morons - without a doubt it's closer to 99%. So what are people REALLY thinking? I don't see how it's possible to feel that we can continue to consume as we do especially when the world's population is expected to double within my lifetime. I guess I gave my position way... but really, why isn't a pending global natural catastrophe on the minds of U.S. leadership? Or am I missing something?

[Claverhouse]

I agree with you about... most everything. Anyway, it's simple enough, people don't think about things that are disagreeable to them. That way nothing bad can happen.

Neither leftie or rightie, though...


Claverhouse :ph34r:

[kuranes]

In a "market" based system, a lot of priority is on satisfying quarterly stockholder expectations vs. long term thinking, though sometimes the one can fortuitously turn out to be supportive of the other.

[songbird36]

All name calling aside, does anyone have any thoughts on the ideological disconnect between liberals and conservatives with regards to the environment? 50% of the country (sorry, the U.S.) can't be morons - without a doubt it's closer to 99%. So what are people REALLY thinking? I don't see how it's possible to feel that we can continue to consume as we do especially when the world's population is expected to double within my lifetime. I guess I gave my position way... but really, why isn't a pending global natural catastrophe on the minds of U.S. leadership? Or am I missing something?

*People* as such aren't thinking anything. Your current administration is imagining it can hold out on the Kyoto Protocol endlessly while it happily accepts funding from Big Business. Go figure...

[INThoughtPolice]

I don't see how it's possible to feel that we can continue to consume as we do especially when the world's population is expected to double within my lifetime. Yeah but we'll be dead by then. Deep down we all know that's why we don't do anything.

[SerenusZ]

Can it really be as simple as ignoring the problem and hoping it goes away? Or the old frog in a boiling pot anecdote? It's not like we don't know the heat is being turned up. Many U.S. cities are accepting the Kyoto Protocol without federal mandate, they're taking things in their own hands at the local level - which is perhaps the best place for them. But still, when you have a government that hates the poor such a this current administration, you leave a large part of the population out of the dialogue as they're to busy worrying about basic survival to take part. And as far as markets, it seems to me that sustainable practices have proven over and over again to also be profitable - after all, money is also a resource. I just can't help thinking that there is something else going on that we're not talking about.

[No Blunts]

There are a lot more EPA controls and environmental protections now then there have ever been. To say that the US is poluting more now is ridiculous. China and the 3rd world are fucking us up. Look at the used electronics dumps in china where chemicals run into the groundwater and they burn the pcbs away to get at the copper. That is where the real problem is. I'm just gonna say it outright, I really don't care because I'll be dead before we feel any of the effects. I doubt I'm having kids so I really have nothing to worry about. Consume, consume consume!

[ptGatsby]

Can it really be as simple as ignoring the problem and hoping it goes away? Or the old frog in a boiling pot anecdote? It's not like we don't know the heat is being turned up. Many U.S. cities are accepting the Kyoto Protocol without federal mandate, they're taking things in their own hands at the local level - which is perhaps the best place for them. But still, when you have a government that hates the poor such a this current administration, you leave a large part of the population out of the dialogue as they're to busy worrying about basic survival to take part. And as far as markets, it seems to me that sustainable practices have proven over and over again to also be profitable - after all, money is also a resource. I just can't help thinking that there is something else going on that we're not talking about.



Its relatively simple, as a whole. Democracies (republics) are a political body that are concerned with politics. The more control the government has over information (note the amount of censoring done in the states as far as 'science' goes and the number of think tanks dedicated to such things), the more they will use it for political reasons.

Evidence, science, measurement, ethics, morality...? They have nothing to do with it. Your expectation that government is good is not the case. They are acting out their nature and they will continue to do so. The only reason there are two sides is because the other sides wants votes.

That is why everything is so polarized and you couldn't get a clear fact if your life depended on it. Political bodies don't use facts, the use one liners to get you to vote to them. They will never change their tune; again, its about voters... and voters vote with emotions.

It is very much a tragedy of the commons issue. Each individual actor has a lot to gain from exploiting the environment; the cost borne by the environment is slight. However, given enough time, the equilibrium where the environment no longer offers a return is below an... ideal... level.

[SerenusZ]

There are a lot more EPA controls and environmental protections now then there have ever been. To say that the US is poluting more now is ridiculous. China and the 3rd world are fucking us up. Look at the used electronics dumps in china where chemicals run into the groundwater and they burn the pcbs away to get at the copper. That is where the real problem is. I'm just gonna say it outright, I really don't care because I'll be dead before we feel any of the effects. I doubt I'm having kids so I really have nothing to worry about. Consume, consume consume!


I think it's difficult to say whether we are polluting more now than ever, we may not be. However, we are consuming more than ever. China is going to be a huge problem. They have the unique opportunity to bypass an American style industrial machine, but show little signs of trying to do so.
Much of the electronics dumping in China and India is shipped from the U.S. and Europe in an effort to protect our own evironments. Poor nations are allowing us to cheaply dump our shit everywhere. I think the REAL problem is social equity. But I often think like you do - I'll be dead before I see any terrible repercussions, and when I'm dead I'll cease to care.