Second undergrad degree?? (28 y/o)

[Geoduke]

I guess this is a little more than the standard "should I go back to school?" question. The underlying question for me is, "will my life be any different if I go back to school?"

I just started looking into these personality type descriptions last night with some amount of detail. It makes me feel a lot better about myself and the actions/decisions that I have made in the past. I end up changing my mind about things and have always chalked it up to a "lack of discipline" on my part or "not looking into things enough".

I'll try and give as quick as possible of a rundown of my career and educational history. Go ahead and skip to the next paragraph if you don't care. I enjoyed school and excelled when young, started rebelling at around 6th grade and did nothing from that point on until dropping out senior year of high school (I did well in shop class, drafting, and geometry) with just a few credits left. I bummed around with really no direction for a few years and took a few photography at the community college (I later got a job as a photographer at a local newspaper that I really enjoyed). Working other crappy jobs, I realized that I was going to get nowhere without a formal education. I focused more on college and ended up with an AS in Science. I transferred to a 4 year school for a BS in Geology (I think I was attracted to the exotic, far away travel rather than the nature of work), decided that the program at that school wasn't worth my time and transferred to a different school to finish up my BS, loved the program and the major (although I started having doubts about my choice senior year). Got a job as a geophysicist after graduation and hated pretty much every aspect of it (grunt work, mindless data collection...), quit after 6 months of work and applied to graduate schools for an MS in Geology. Got into my last choice school with a free ride and stayed for a year all the while not enjoying the curriculum. Came back to where I grew up and got a job as a "geologist" at a civil consulting firm (I don't do anything related to real geology, nor do I want to at this point). I honestly can't see myself here for more than a year. Within the past 3 years, my interest in engineering (I liked physics in college more than my geology classes) and mechanical design has been growing steadily. ***After proofreading this paragraph, I sound like a jerk, I'm not really like this, just trying to condense everything and still get the idea across.***

So here I am. I'm 28. I just got engaged to a great girl. I've been accepted to the 15th ranked school in the country for mechanical engineering. I've saved up 12k in the past year for initial school costs. Something feels different about this time and what I'm going to be studying. I really want a chance to be creative and do design work. I want to be able to influence the outcome rather than just be a mindless data collector. I'm a hands on, visual guy.

Am I just fooling myself thinking that I will enjoy mechanical engineering more? Is this just a trait of INTP's to just try and keep going with other things and never be happy with where they are? Or is it possible that have I actually found something that I will really be passionate about for the remainder of my life and enjoy doing as a career?

I'd really appreciate some insight into this one. Also, great website! It's amazing to be able to find these places on the internet. Thanks again.

[mr. treat]

i'm still in college and i have the same problem. i was even thinking about switching from chemistry to a geology major.

[Nighthawk]

I'd say give it a shot if it is what you really want and you haven't gotten used to your present income yet. I went back for a masters at age 30 and have not regretted it. I had much more drive and ambition the second time around and did much better in my classes. I wish I could go back now for a PhD, but have gotten used to my income and do not want to give it up. Maybe next year ;)

One caveat ... do not expect any degree or field to be the magic ticket away from tedious grunt work in the corporate world. From my experience, the SJ grunt work pays better than exciting research or development. I cruel irony for our type. Starting your own buiness might work out better for you, but ... depending upon how big an introvert you are ... it will involve dealing with needy, clueless, irritable customers on a regular basis. At any rate, school is fun if you can stomach the pay cut. Not a bad deal either to stay in academia and teach afterwards.

Best of luck.

[Snowflake]

Not a bad deal either to stay in academia and teach afterwards.I absolutely would not want to put up with the shit that comes with having to teach, heh.
I really want a chance to be creative and do design work. I want to be able to influence the outcome rather than just be a mindless data collector. I'm a hands on, visual guy.Certain people around here will try and convince you that engineering is not a major which will bring out your creativity. Please make sure to bash them on the head.

[Geoduke]

I'm just a little worried that after 3 or 4 years out with a BS in ME I'm going to start thinking, damn this really sucks...why didn't I look into this further...how did I not see this coming...

Mr. Treat, if you are interested in geology and want any more info about the major or careers give me a PM and I'll send you some contact info for me.

Thanks for the info guys.

[Geoduke]

I absolutely would not want to put up with the shit that comes with having to teach, heh.

I agree. After teaching geology 101 lab, I will never, ever teach intro classes ever again. Although the senior level classes I TA'ed were pretty rewarding.

[lbloom]

Provided you stick to the top 20-25 schools, relative ranking doesn't matter much. Make sure the school is good at what you want to do, within the department.

An undergrad degree won't give you too much space to get creative with design. Finish the undergrad and go find a good professor to work with at Ann Arbor or MIT (good examples for design/product development).

Among the most brilliant professors I've ever met got his masters in Sociology before even beginning his engineering studies.

Be prepared for possible hostility from the kids if you decide to focus and crack each exam. :)

[Justin05]

Why are you getting a second undergraduate degree if you already have one. Couldn't you just find a masters program and not have to take all the nonsense prequesites?

I think your job would be a lot of fun if you went for it. Its a dream job. You get to visualize and think abstractly all day. You get to work with ideas. That would rock. The design aspect just rocks.

[Snowflake]

If design is what you're into, you might like industrial design or industrial engineering instead.

[Justin05]

Can anyone answer my previous question? I am curious for myself. I am thinking that he has to get another undergraduate degree because its an engineering degree and requires more credits. So one can transfer in all of their prereqs and just take strictly physics and engineering courses. That would be great if that is the case. I might do it. Someone let me know if you can. Thanks guys.

[last_caress]

I absolutely would not want to put up with the shit that comes with having to teach, heh.Certain people around here will try and convince you that engineering is not a major which will bring out your creativity. Please make sure to bash them on the head.

It isn't that engineering isn't creative, it's the reality of 9-5 risk averse, overly cost conscious corporate structures that many will be forced to work within.
Maybe you will be a lucky one and end up in R&D or something, but many I have seen spend months analyzing reams of data trying to figure out why X disposable consumer widget is cracking in a certain place, and or how to shave $.02 off of the cost all while contending with inflexible, incompetent administrations, overly complex protocols, lots of overtime without pay and substandard base pay.
Not very exciting, rewarding or innovative if you ask me.

[Edmond Zedo]

I'd say if want to design, get a design degree. But I'll have the market cornered on that, you know. If I become self-employed, I'll be able to do my own intuitive engineering. Professionals make mistakes that kill people, but if something looks and feels solid, it usually is. Like the aqueducts of Rome.

[Snowflake]

but if something looks and feels solid, it usually is. Like the aqueducts of Rome.Pretty much. But modern engineering, as mentioned, has a large focus on efficiency. Sure, we can design structures to incredible requirements. But the minute they are faced with something we didn't factor into the design, say bye-bye. Case in point: World Trade Center towers.
Not very exciting, rewarding or innovative if you ask me.Sure, there's a lot of grunt work, but no more so than just about any other job on the planet, so your point is kind of weak.

[abathur]

Hell, you could even go back for an undergrad degree and take the core courses and then start applying to masters programs and see if you can't get in. If they don't require the undergrad degree you could get out of the undergrad work a lot quicker and cheaper (I think you can even sign up to survey the course for cheaper than taking it regularly in most places). I don't know if you can count on a life-long career out of anything. I'd be weary of living through too much hell "to be happy later" so I'd make sure you also WANT to be back in school.

A bit of an RE: to snowflake: I thought the same way all the way up to the past 6 months or so (I'm nearing 22) despite being told by some of those closest to me that they could see me as a professor. Up until recently, though, I hadn't really considered teaching creative writing, nor had I spent all that much time in CW classrooms. Since then I've been seriously thinking about it. Granted, I wouldn't really care to spend a long time teaching intro courses, but I might not mind teaching an elective at the HS level before I'm teaching at a University, as long as I have a few interested students, a good mix compared to those who are just there for some credit. So, perhaps you think not, I was as sure as anyone that I wouldn't. I always said I hated kids way too much to teach.

That all changed when I found somewhere on campus that felt like home.

[s0978]

Am I just fooling myself thinking that I will enjoy mechanical engineering more? Is this just a trait of INTP's to just try and keep going with other things and never be happy with where they are? Or is it possible that have I actually found something that I will really be passionate about for the remainder of my life and enjoy doing as a career?Does it matter? No one can tell you what will happen. So your interests may evolve, so? Why not pursue something you seem very excited about?

[Stillwater]

I have seriously considered design- furniture or lighting especially. I've heard the schooling at a top ID program is a real nutcracker- it's been described as med school without the blood. Very competitive field, but if your going for the more creative end, it just might work for ya.

I'm not an engineer, but I have worked at a private geo/enviro engineering firm, government civil eng dept, and corporate manufacturing eng depts. I have worked with all kinds of engineers- mechanical, electrical, chemical, civil, environmental, and yes geologists too. I saw a bit of the same sort of disillusionment across the board. Doesn't necessarily mean one type isn't a better fit for you personally. I think there is a noticable distinction between civil/enviro, which tends to be glorified technician type work and other engineering fields. If I were you I'd try to talk to some working mech eng's (not students or professors) to see what their reality is like.

Myself, I sort of fell into GIS work from a love of maps, but I'd much rather do something more creative/artistic. Now I realize it was the graphic component I really liked. Dig photography too.

[Geoduke]

I'll look into some more design programs and see what they have to offer. I think also one of the concerns of mine is my fiance's parents and what they will think when they hear this news. They have already labeled me "the professional student."


Can anyone answer my previous question? I am curious for myself. I am thinking that he has to get another undergraduate degree because its an engineering degree and requires more credits. So one can transfer in all of their prereqs and just take strictly physics and engineering courses. That would be great if that is the case. I might do it. Someone let me know if you can. Thanks guys.

Yeah thats what I plan on doing. All the gen-ed classes should transfer leaving me with thermodynamics, statics, etc...Unfortunately the physics I took was non-calc based. The program at best will take 3 years for a BS and 4 for a masters (there is an option to take grad classes senior year provided your GPA is 3.5 or above). Going straight into grad school again would be nice but most, if not all, require you to take some kind of core undergrad curriculum before starting grad classes. This turns a 2 year MS into a 3 year. I guess I figure, what the hell? Why not make it 4 and get a much better base to start from. Plus I find my odds pretty low trying to get into a fairly ranked masters program for engineering since I had such a hard time getting into a good grad school for something that I actually studied.

[Nighthawk]

I absolutely would not want to put up with the shit that comes with having to teach, heh.


I agree. After teaching geology 101 lab, I will never, ever teach intro classes ever again. Although the senior level classes I TA'ed were pretty rewarding.

I taught intro courses for a few years at the uni. After 10 years of dealing with and working for corporate morons, I would love the opportunity to teach again.

[eyebyte_atWork]

Engineering.

Here is my take on it.

After getting a BS in engineering you will do grunt work until you get your PE license (four years later)- and then you have some freedom. This grunt work will have good moments as you will learn how to turn you knowledge into something usable. I was split between mechanical and civil because of how much freedom you could get from either. As a civil - I would recomend going to get a MS in a specialized field (I was considering structural) because thats where your brain will thrive. Iin mechanical - I am not sure...but I do think any area in mechanical would allow your brain some candy. THe redeeming quality of engineering (true engineering as recognized by licensing authorities) is that after you have a license you have some freedom and can fill a business need.

I stopped short of getting my BSCE (BS civil) and have regretted not finishing. I currently work as a software engineer (not a true engineering profession as of yet). As software developers we are in constant fear of being outsourced. With licensed engineering you are required to be there, in the state you are licensed which helps with the whole outsourcing thing. And the BIG PLUS is you can use your brain and solve problems. I make "web-sheets" and feel retarded.

I have considered going back myself... ofcourse having written software for the past ten years I would most likely mix the two disciplines.

[last_caress]

Sure, there's a lot of grunt work, but no more so than just about any other job on the planet, so your point is kind of weak.

The point was and still is, that I have found that ostensibly more so than other professions, engineering tends to embrace cumbersome and stifling formalities.
Perhaps it is also exacerbated by the fact that I work at a german company, but I have found, to a lesser but still significant extent, similar propensities in american firms.
An adjacent colleague expressed extreme frustration with the same thing just before I left for lunch.
Finally, again I wouldn't recommend it as a career path for someone who places high value on unfettered creative expression, unless they planned on self-employment.

Feel free to contrast your extensive experience with 10 years of mine.

[Geoduke]

It isn't that engineering isn't creative, it's the reality of 9-5 risk averse, overly cost conscious corporate structures that many will be forced to work within.
Maybe you will be a lucky one and end up in R&D or something, but many I have seen spend months analyzing reams of data trying to figure out why X disposable consumer widget is cracking in a certain place, and or how to shave $.02 off of the cost all while contending with inflexible, incompetent administrations, overly complex protocols, lots of overtime without pay and substandard base pay.
Not very exciting, rewarding or innovative if you ask me.

That paints a pretty dismal picture. What type of engineering are you doing? When I read about the profession it brings to my mind images of designing, running equations, possibly machining, and testing.

[eyebyte_atWork]

The point was and still is, that I have found that ostensibly more so than other professions, engineering tends to embrace cumbersome and stifling formalities.
Perhaps it is also exacerbated by the fact that I work at a german company, but I have found, to a lesser but still significant extent, similar propensities in american firms.
An adjacent colleague expressed extreme frustration with the same thing just before I left for lunch.
Finally, again I wouldn't recommend it as a career path for someone who places high value on unfettered creative expression, unless they planned on self-employment.

Feel free to contrast your extensive experience with 10 years of mine.


Yes - I agree. I do think that engineering will have it's share of grunt work - but like you said - if you plan to be self employed it has alot of good to offer. The problem is as it is anywhere - you do what others need done and not what would interest you.

[eyebyte_atWork]

That paints a pretty dismal picture. What type of engineering are you doing? When I read about the profession it brings to my mind images of designing, running equations, possibly machining, and testing.


I did a 2 years of interning in civil. I was amazed at how little engineering I had to do... I did mosty CAD work and grunt detail work... orcourse I had the opportunity to design some stuff (a neighborhood, a few streets, a couple of structures, etc) but that was usually outweighed by the CAD drawing I ended up doing. I still think it would be more fun than many other occupations - and like Last_Caress stated - if you become self employed you can work the kind of projects you like.

ofcourse I am software "engineer" now - so its all from memory.

[last_caress]

Please note, that what I am expressing is an opinion.
There's no method as far as I know for definitively quantifying creative lattitude in a job.
I happen to regard anal statistical micro-focus on insignificant widgets, form requisition form protocol, and extreme silk noose corporate risk aversion to novelty as tedious and antithetical to free flowing creativity (seems to happen more often in engineering in my experience), YOU MAY NOT. I'm sure this also varies with the type, but I'm talking mechanical.
Plus the statistics that I have seen regarding personality type distribution in engineering has been from students. Test people that have made it 5 years into a career and I bet you will get significantly different results. Anecdotally most of the engineers here seem decidedly J.
As always with the subjective, YMMV.

[distraction tactics]

Mr. Treat, if you are interested in geology and want any more info about the major or careers give me a PM and I'll send you some contact info for me.

My goal is to get into geophysics. The nature of the work doesn't concern me as it cannot be worse than what I'm currently doing, but I am curious to hear how you found the process of finding a job with your B.Sc. Was it difficult? Moderate? A relative snap? Does an honours or masters make much of a difference opportunity-wise?

[eyebyte_atWork]

My goal is to get into geophysics. The nature of the work doesn't concern me as it cannot be worse than what I'm currently doing, but I am curious to hear how you found the process of finding a job with your B.Sc. Was it difficult? Moderate? A relative snap? Does an honours or masters make much of a difference opportunity-wise?


Just an FYI - There is a sub-specialty in civil engineering - geotechnical engineering... it it is very much in demand. It's kinda like practical geophysics. Again - just an FYI.

[distraction tactics]

Just an FYI - There is a sub-specialty in civil engineering - geotechnical engineering... it it is very much in demand. It's kinda like practical geophysics. Again - just an FYI.

Very good to know!

[th!nkstyle]

in terms of optimization; (this goes for those of you just getting into university) its all about getting a degree in whatever type of engineering, then afterwords you can get into just about anything else by doing a year or so of courses then a masters in whatever.

In other words, if you dont know exactly what you want to do, do engineering (if you dont mind your ass being kicked for a while), then opt out (because it sort of sucks, but the education you get from it is the best).

[Nighthawk]

in terms of optimization; (this goes for those of you just getting into university) its all about getting a degree in whatever type of engineering, then afterwords you can get into just about anything else by doing a year or so of courses then a masters in whatever.

In other words, if you dont know exactly what you want to do, do engineering (if you dont mind your ass being kicked for a while), then opt out (because it sort of sucks, but the education you get from it is the best).

I concur. My undergrad major was in general engineering. I was accepted into grad schools for both international relations and computer science based on that degree. I doubt that I would have gotten into the CS program with an undergrad in international relations. An engineering undergrad offers much flexibility later in life.

[Geoduke]

My goal is to get into geophysics. The nature of the work doesn't concern me as it cannot be worse than what I'm currently doing, but I am curious to hear how you found the process of finding a job with your B.Sc. Was it difficult? Moderate? A relative snap? Does an honours or masters make much of a difference opportunity-wise?

That all really depends on what type of geophysics you want to get into. If you want to do big scale petroleum exploration type stuff then definitely you should get a masters in geophysics, and make sure you go to a good school. Keep in mind that since you are working for petroleum companies you will be in certain pockets of the country, TX, OK, Denver, CO. and a few other places.

A geophysics professor (he did a lot of resistivity) told me one time while I was still in school: Geophysics is all about carrying heavy loads for long hours over rough terrain for very low pay. I laughed at his joke while in school, after graduating I wasn't laughing when I was working 50hr/week for 24k/year (no-overtime) traversing abandoned artillery ranges mapping the locations of UXO (un-exploded ordinance).

As eyebyte mentioned Geotech people use geophysics as well. And it's much easier to get a job doing that. I work for a geotech consulting firm and do most of the geophysics work that comes in. There is a little seismic stuff that geotech people get info from (refraction-microtremor or depth to bedrock surveys) and there is also PDA (pile driving analysis) which civil's call "geophysics" but as a geologist I don't consider it to be so.

All in all it brings me back to square one. As a non-engineer, I collect data for an engineer to use.

[mr. treat]

That all really depends on what type of geophysics you want to get into. If you want to do big scale petroleum exploration type stuff then definitely you should get a masters in geophysics, and make sure you go to a good school. Keep in mind that since you are working for petroleum companies you will be in certain pockets of the country, TX, OK, Denver, CO. and a few other places.

i've been thinking along the lines of natural resource exploration - oil, gas, minerals, maybe water. but i don't want to be just stuck indoors all day pouring over pages and pages of data, i'd like to spend time out collecting the information too.

[distraction tactics]

That all really depends on what type of geophysics you want to get into. If you want to do big scale petroleum exploration type stuff then definitely you should get a masters in geophysics, and make sure you go to a good school. Keep in mind that since you are working for petroleum companies you will be in certain pockets of the country, TX, OK, Denver, CO. and a few other places.

I'd probably stick to Canada, assuming the Alberta oil boom doesn't bust within 4 years. Also, I do know there is some Shield mineral exploration going on in Manitoba, Ontario and NWT (a lot of kimberlite diamond crap up there).


A geophysics professor (he did a lot of resistivity) told me one time while I was still in school: Geophysics is all about carrying heavy loads for long hours over rough terrain for very low pay. I laughed at his joke while in school, after graduating I wasn't laughing when I was working 50hr/week for 24k/year (no-overtime) traversing abandoned artillery ranges mapping the locations of UXO (un-exploded ordinance).

See, aside from the low wage, the kind of stuff appeals to me. I'd probably join the combat engineers in the military if I could handle being yelled at all the time.

[th!nkstyle]

I'd probably stick to Canada, assuming the Alberta oil boom doesn't bust within 4 years. Also, I do know there is some Shield mineral exploration going on in Manitoba, Ontario and NWT (a lot of kimberlite diamond crap up there).


Its also about ethics though. As far as engineering goes, engineers involved with oil companies make the most (into the 100K range on average with expierence).

A person might ask you: How much money is required to buy you out? Yes, i know someone has gotta do it, but it definitly does not have to be you in particular.

"minimizing" environmental damage, or helping rape the planet is not the type of thing I'd like to look back at when im old and say "oh ya, I'm glad i did that".... To truely enjoy the positive aspects of oil and mining related jobs, one must really ignore several points of view completly. The oil industry is very interesting per se, but as soon as you look beyond the per se, things arent as dandy. Unfortunatly (or fortunatly, depending how you look at it), im about the bigger picture, so although I technically could, in reality I really cant.

[jread]

I concur. My undergrad major was in general engineering. I was accepted into grad schools for both international relations and computer science based on that degree. I doubt that I would have gotten into the CS program with an undergrad in international relations. An engineering undergrad offers much flexibility later in life.

That and it's impossible to get into an engineering or computer science master's when you don't have an engineering-type undergrad degree. I would have to take 40 hours of undergrad classes ON TOP of my bachelor's degree (public administration) to even qualify for entrance into the master's in computer science. I could go the CIS route instead (much less background work) but I'm not sure if CIS is going to get me where I want to be. There's a certain level of prestige that CS folks have as opposed to CIS folks who are considered "CS dropouts" :(

[distraction tactics]

...

That doesn't really register on my moral radar at all, just like I don't think selling drugs is unethical.

[th!nkstyle]

That doesn't really register on my moral radar at all, just like I don't think selling drugs is unethical.


differences in human perception is what makes the world an interesting place...sooo many possiblities

[Architectonic]

An engineering undergrad offers much flexibility later in life.

How would that compare to say, a physics major?

[Nighthawk]

How would that compare to say, a physics major?

I'm not sure ... just speaking from my own personal esperience. I've seen a few physics majors break into other fields without much trouble however. I'd say it is a comparable foundation.

[airjaw]

Does it matter? No one can tell you what will happen. So your interests may evolve, so? Why not pursue something you seem very excited about?

ideally/theoretically no
realistically yes

because it costs time and money , its an investment in a future that he could potentially ditch once he gets bored of it.