5w4: what does it mean to you?

[charred_heart]

I've realised I'm a 5w4, after some consideration. I always had the impression 5w4's are over emotional and self-pitying, so I wanted to know from those who have met any 5w4's: what's your impression of them?

For reference:

Five With a 4 Wing:
The difference between the 4 wing and the 6 wing in Fives is like the difference between Art and Science. 4 wing brings an abstract, intuitive cast of thought, as though the Five were thinking in geometric shapes instead of words or realistic images. May be talented artistically and inhabit moods like Fours do. Combine intellectual and emotional imagination. Enjoy the realm of philosophy and beautiful constructs of thought. The marriage of mental perspective and aesthetics is the best of life for them.

When more defensive may seem a little ghostly, have a whisper in their voice. Fluctuate between impersonal withdrawal and bursts of friendly caring. Can get floaty and abstract. Act like they're inside a bubble, sometimes with an air of implicit superiority. Cliché of the "absentminded professor" applies especially to Fives with this wing.

Environmentally sensitive and subject at times to total overwhelm. Touchy about criticism. Can be slow to recover from traumatic events. Melancholy isolation and bleak existential depression are possible pitfalls.

Five With a 6 Wing

The 6 wing brings an orientation to detail and technical knowledge, along with the tendency to think in logical sequence. Especially intellectual, far more analytical than Fives with a 4 wing. Can be loyal friends, offering strong behind-the-scenes support. Kind, patient teachers, skillful experts. May have a sense of mission and work hard.

Sometimes project an aura of sensitive nerdiness and have clumsy social skills. When defensive, they can be unnerved by the expectations of others. May like people more but avoid them more. Especially sensitive to social indebtedness. Could have trouble saying "thank you." Fear of taking action, develop "information addiction" instead. Ask lots of questions but don't get around to the decision at hand.

When more entranced, they develop a suspicious scrutiny of other people's motives but can also be blind followers. Misanthropic and Scrooge-like when defensive. More able to keep their feelings cut off in a constant way. Can be cold, skeptical, ironic, and disassociated.

A Five's 6 wing can be phobic or counterphobic. Counterphobic 6 wing brings courage and antiauthoritarian attitudes. When defensive they may mock authority, or angrily tell others off. Tend to "push the envelope," experiment, find what the limits are.

[charred_heart]

I may be moody sometimes, but I would hardly call it self-pity. It's more like I get overwhelmed by too much thought and/or a kind of disdain for human beings in general.

The 4 wing leads to a lot of new projects all the time and what can only be described as creative living.

I suspect that a majority of INTP's are 5w4.it's the constant worrying that might appear as self-pity. It's pretty bad to be thought of that way considering I hate the "why me?" types. I jus realiesd I've been either depressed or restless most of my life, starting from the first desert storm so since I was 8. How about you ?

[CosmicDust]

I'm a 5w6 and quite emotional and self-pitying. I initially thought I was a 5w4, partly because of this. I also experience things like shame and envy that can sound superficially Fourish. But real 4-wingers tend to be more pro-subjectivity (whereas I tend to find subjectivity unreliable and frustrating) and have fourish qualities I don't relate to much like elitist disdain and sometimes even the 4's need for a rich and somehow extraordinary emotional life (although, unlike 4s, they tend to have a limited tolerance for the emotions). They also tend to come off as more integrated with their emotions than 5w6s, but less so than, say, 4s or 6s.

[charred_heart]

They also tend to come off as more integrated with their emotions than 5w6s, but less so than, say, 4s or 6s.I think that's what convinced me I'm not a 5w6. I am not as 'sensetive' as 4's but feelings don't freak me out (most of the time). I'm not shy or awkward around strangers. On the other hand, I'm not as dedicated to research as 5w6's are when interested in a project. They are natural inventors because of their ability to work with huge amounts of data. I like to think up concepts but when it comes to working, I am tireles and focussed until a certain point where my mind raises an alarm that says 'this is getting unhealthy'. 5w6's seem to go on regardless of mental or physical health which is amazing.

[CosmicDust]

I think that's what convinced me I'm not a 5w6. I am not as 'sensetive' as 4's but feelings don't freak me out (most of the time). I'm not shy or awkward around strangers.
I don't think shyness or awkwardness has much of a correlation with wing. I was bold as a young child. Nowadays I'm maybe somewhat shy, or at least clearly introverted in most offline situations, but not painfully shy/socially anxious.

My relationship with feelings is kind of strange. They seem to occur in pretty much a normal human way from what I've read about normal human emotions, yet due to the contexts in which they show and my way of talking about them rather than from them, I manage to come across as robotic or Vulcanlike at times. This is what it is to not be integrated with emotions. My mind can treat them almost like an external object sometimes, even though I can't seem to keep them from showing up in situations where I don't want them to.

[ApeTheDog]

I'm pretty good at self-sacrificial stuff that is to the benefit of a goal I've set. I don't consider myself as the most important thing in most equasions. I think that's where the 5w6 unhealthy thing comes from - the simple ability to think of ourselves as just 'a person' and treat ourselves as that. I think that if anyone can do/withstand it, then so must I - regardless of whether or not I feel like it. I'm often very harsh on myself because of that.

[charred_heart]

My relationship with feelings is kind of strange. They seem to occur in pretty much a normal human way from what I've read about normal human emotions, yet due to the contexts in which they show and my way of talking about them rather than from them, I manage to come across as robotic or Vulcanlike at times. This is what it is to not be integrated with emotions. My mind can treat them almost like an external object sometimes, even though I can't seem to keep them from showing up in situations where I don't want them to. when a situation arises where you have strong emotions and you want to express them clearly, do you find yourself at a loss for words?

[charred_heart]

I'm pretty good at self-sacrificial stuff that is to the benefit of a goal I've set. I don't consider myself as the most important thing in most equasions. I think that's where the 5w6 unhealthy thing comes from - the simple ability to think of ourselves as just 'a person' and treat ourselves as that. I think that if anyone can do/withstand it, then so must I - regardless of whether or not I feel like it. I'm often very harsh on myself because of that.That's why 5w6's are a sort of mental super athletes. I hit the brakes because I ask this question to myself "Is this the purpose of your life?". I have this mentality where I am saving my last push, that last effort beyond reasonable means, for my real purpose in life. Everything else I treat as a side project.

[CosmicDust]

when a situation arises where you have strong emotions and you want to express them clearly, do you find yourself at a loss for words?
Not necessarily. I will be less likely to speak if I am emoting in-person and all choked up. But if I get over the initial physical emoting, or decide to work through it, or am online (emotions rarely interfere with my ability to write), the words I do choose might end up being unnecessarily convoluted, analytical, and distant, unless I make a deliberate effort to be more direct.

I can feel and I can articulate, but bringing these two together to articulate with emotional twinge is very difficult for me.

[charred_heart]

Not necessarily. I will be less likely to speak if I am emoting in-person and all choked up. But if I get over the initial physical emoting, or decide to work through it, or am online (emotions rarely interfere with my ability to write), the words I do choose might end up being unnecessarily convoluted, analytical, and distant, unless I make a deliberate effort to be more direct.That's the difference! See how I write in the forums? That's exactly how I talk in real life. Which is why I couldn't relate to this tendency of the 5w6's to rely on emails/forums for communication - in awkward situations.

[CosmicDust]

I actually don't read the forums all that much, so don't have much of a feel for your writing style.

I tend to be a little less convoluted when I talk in person, but still pretty dry and distant. Even in person I've come across robotic or Spockish sometimes, if I'm not smiling, laughing, crying, or close enough to crying to be choked up. The internet magnifies the robot factor by hiding the physical emoting when it does occur.

[charred_heart]

I actually don't read the forums all that much, so don't have much of a feel for your writing style.

I tend to be a little less convoluted when I talk in person, but still pretty dry and distant. Even in person I've come across robotic or Spockish sometimes, if I'm not smiling, laughing, crying, or close enough to crying to be choked up. The internet magnifies the robot factor by hiding the physical emoting when it does occur.strangely enough, that makes 5w6 easier to get a long with I would think. Everyone sees this aloof exterior so they think you're always cool.

[CosmicDust]

strangely enough, that makes 5w6 easier to get a long with I would think. Everyone sees this aloof exterior so they think you're always cool.
That may be true. I'm rarely at odds with, say, my family members, despite the fact that they're often at odds with each other. I just kind of keep that cool distance, and it's not a rejecting snooty distance like you can get from some 5w4s, it's more of a harmless and uninvested distance. The 5w4s I've talked to are much more likely than myself to have serious, lasting conflicts with people close to them - to anger and to be angered. (I remember one 5w6 mentioning anger, but it was usually a short-lived indignance at an injustice, and he felt very calm when it was gone.) When I do upset people, I'm quick to feel remorse if I feel I've made a bad move socially, and can pretty easily be convinced of this as well.

[phenol]

I've realised I'm a 5w4, after some consideration. I
Five With a 4 Wing:
The difference between the 4 wing and the 6 wing in Fives is like the difference between Art and Science. 4 wing brings an abstract, intuitive cast of thought, as though the Five were thinking in geometric shapes instead of words or realistic images. May be talented artistically and inhabit moods like Fours do. Combine intellectual and emotional imagination. Enjoy the realm of philosophy and beautiful constructs of thought. The marriage of mental perspective and aesthetics is the best of life for them.

When more defensive may seem a little ghostly, have a whisper in their voice. Fluctuate between impersonal withdrawal and bursts of friendly caring. Can get floaty and abstract. Act like they're inside a bubble, sometimes with an air of implicit superiority. Clich? of the "absentminded professor" applies especially to Fives with this wing.

Environmentally sensitive and subject at times to total overwhelm. Touchy about criticism. Can be slow to recover from traumatic events. Melancholy isolation and bleak existential depression are possible pitfalls.


ding.

that describes the core of my issues quite accurately.

[Fierys]

Even i have to say that bottom part clicks with me fairly well. I have had some fairly traumatic experiences in my life, and while in comparison to others may be nothing, still very much carries with me. I havent had a fruitful relationship since i lived in maryland, which was a few years ago. That move sort of debilitated my ease in social situations. I dont know if it was my bleak outlook that caused that or actual emotions twords this girl i had, but it definantly put me a few steps back on the dating game.

[AcidGoethe]

I love 5's. 5w4's have that whole outcast thing going about them that I really enjoy... kind of "wtf I don't give a shit about whatever exists, I'm off to create my own reality". I can definitely relate to that. I think they may come off more often like 8's than 5w6's.

[coffeezombie]

I suspect that a majority of INTP's are 5w4.
I don't. There are more 6w5 and 5w6 INTPs here than 5w4s.

[Ryuko]

Bleh, I've been looking into the Enneagram lately, and I highly suspect I am a 5w4. The kind of statements that truly make me say this are ones like... "Environmentally sensitive and subject at times to total overwhelm. Touchy about criticism. Can be slow to recover from traumatic events. Melancholy isolation and bleak existential depression are possible pitfalls." I don't really think I'm self-pitying. I just constantly feel sad, and what's worse is because I'm such an introverted person is I have a hard time talking about it, even if my friends do pick up that something's wrong.

[coffeezombie]

Okay. I'm kind of new to this enneagram thing. I'll take your word for it.
Yeah, typing others online takes some skill, let alone typing them in real life.

[Eileen]

"Environmentally sensitive and subject at times to total overwhelm. Touchy about criticism. Can be slow to recover from traumatic events. Melancholy isolation and bleak existential depression are possible pitfalls."


Yes, this sounds like my boyfriend. I think he's 5w4 (interesting--I'm 4w5). He is really surprisingly emotional for an INTP and very prone to depression. He's very energized by his "investigations" but he's also easily depressed and discouraged about them. I wonder if that's a 5w4 thing?

[lbloom]

On the other hand, I'm not as dedicated to research as 5w6's are when interested in a project. They are natural inventors because of their ability to work with huge amounts of data. I like to think up concepts but when it comes to working, I am tireles and focussed until a certain point where my mind raises an alarm that says 'this is getting unhealthy'. 5w6's seem to go on regardless of mental or physical health which is amazing.

I'm a 5w4, and I can work seemingly endlessly if a problem intrigues me enough. Provided I'm working on my own terms and it's exciting to me, I'm all of the above. So I don't think that it's a 6-wing thing. You just have to find something that you personally care about to work on.

[fripping]

i think i'm a 5w4 and although i'm still a drooling undergrad it seems like we're the most eminently unemployable of all intp types.

that is, for a lack of that technical edge which can do so well for IT or science careers.

[rivercrow]

i think i'm a 5w4 and although i'm still a drooling undergrad it seems like we're the most eminently unemployable of all intp types.

that is, for a lack of that technical edge which can do so well for IT or science careers.

"most eminently unemployable of all intp types"

Yup. I would agree with you there. :mellow:

[aether]

I thought 5w4 were usually INTJ's. *shrugs*

[rivercrow]

I thought 5w4 were usually INTJ's. *shrugs*

It's not a 1:1 correlation. Enneagram deals with a different aspect of personality, namely motivation.

Also, it's not static, just like the MBTI preferences aren't static. You move around the Enneagram. You also can sink and rise in functionality in your "preferred" style.

Enneagram style is more of a verb, too. At least, that's how it makes sense to me. For instance, if my feeling side emerges, I tend to act more 4ish.

[charred_heart]

Yes, this sounds like my boyfriend. I think he's 5w4 (interesting--I'm 4w5). He is really surprisingly emotional for an INTP and very prone to depression. He's very energized by his "investigations" but he's also easily depressed and discouraged about them. I wonder if that's a 5w4 thing?
What do you mean by 'investigations'? research into historical or political subjects?

If I don't finish something I started I lose self-confidence. Letting those I have given a promise to down is a big fear of mine, it comes to a point where I stop enjoying projects because of this. I don't know if that's how it is with anyone else.

[charred_heart]

I love 5's. 5w4's have that whole outcast thing going about them that I really enjoy... kind of "wtf I don't give a shit about whatever exists, I'm off to create my own reality". I can definitely relate to that. I think they may come off more often like 8's than 5w6's.you enjoy that? great, now I know that not everyone hates me :D

[Vagabond]

If I don't finish something I started I lose self-confidence. Letting those I have given a promise to down is a big fear of mine, it comes to a point where I stop enjoying projects because of this. I don't know if that's how it is with anyone else.
Not quite for me. When I work on something I enjoy, it just me and it in my own little world - until I get bored of it. As for promises - I avoid giving them because they restrict me, but if I do, they are only on the "I will do what I can" level, not on the "I will absolutely do this for you" one. Unless I am 100% sure I can and will do it easily. Therefore, not finishing a promised project is no big deal for me, as long as I know I tried. I don't like people depending on me entirely, and I try to make it clear that they should not do this.

I saw on the variants thread you are considering sp or sx for yourself - I would look into soc as well if I were you; I think that is where our different approach on letting down people and finishing projects relies on. Just a thought.

[charred_heart]

Not quite for me. When I work on something I enjoy, it just me and it in my own little world - until I get bored of it. As for promises - I avoid giving them because they restrict me, but if I do, they are only on the "I will do what I can" level, not on the "I will absolutely do this for you" one. Unless I am 100% sure I can and will do it easily. Therefore, not finishing a promised project is no big deal for me, as long as I know I tried. I don't like people depending on me entirely, and I try to make it clear that they should not do this.

I saw on the variants thread you are considering sp or sx for yourself - I would look into soc as well if I were you; I think that is where our different approach on letting down people and finishing projects relies on. Just a thought.I think it might be related to what I'm dealing with in life right now. I've only been finding jobs with struggling companies so the atmosphere is charged, overtime is a normality and 'orientation' at the start of each job involves showing me my desk and piling on left over work from the last guy. In these jobs quality in work is a theoretical concept, I had to get my work done and fast no questions asked. When I get a chance to work on a concept that hasn't been explored properly by anyone in the company I ask for more time to research and come up with something new. An example: adding realtime animated 3D cross sections of gas turbines in PDF files for a training manual project. That would solve the problem one lecturer explained to me of the old diagrams being black and white copies which the trainees couldn't understand. The low confidence comes from the managers assuming that I'm asking for time because I'm not very good.

I used to be able to totally focus on learning something new in computers or if I'm on a project before I started working but now I'm not the same.

[Eileen]

What do you mean by 'investigations'? research into historical or political subjects?

If I don't finish something I started I lose self-confidence. Letting those I have given a promise to down is a big fear of mine, it comes to a point where I stop enjoying projects because of this. I don't know if that's how it is with anyone else.

Yeah, research in general, whatever he's working on at the time.

I think he would relate a lot to what you say about losing self confidence... and it's not even just letting down people he's promised, but letting down anyone who has expectations of him or may possibly judge him. It paralyzes him sometimes.

[charred_heart]

Yeah, research in general, whatever he's working on at the time.

I think he would relate a lot to what you say about losing self confidence... and it's not even just letting down people he's promised, but letting down anyone who has expectations of him or may possibly judge him. It paralyzes him sometimes.Intersting. Do you find that exasperating?

[Eileen]

Intersting. Do you find that exasperating?

Sometimes, but I can relate to an extent. That fear just doesn't paralyze me--it actually drives me. My best work is borne from fear of being a disappointment...

[charred_heart]

Sometimes, but I can relate to an extent. That fear just doesn't paralyze me--it actually drives me. My best work is borne from fear of being a disappointment...so how do you deal with him when he's like that?

[Eileen]

so how do you deal with him when he's like that?

Love and care and encouragement, naturally. :)

[charred_heart]

Love and care and encouragement, naturally. :)lucky guy

[Ryuko]

When I'm in a depressive mood like that, I usually like when people will sit down with me and help me work through my problems. (Like I mentioned about music on another thread... I can't try to improve my mood, I have to feel through it.) For instance, my friends the other day found out I was feeling depressed and found out the best way to remedy this would be to take me out and go eat cake or something. That's not my type of improvement. It doesn't help the fact that I feel so very isolated from people. I'd much prefer a one on one conversation where I feel that people are actually talking to me because they actually care. So, if your boyfriend is that type of person, and if you give him 'love and care and encouragement' I'm sure it works. ^^;

[phenol]

Yes, this sounds like my boyfriend. I think he's 5w4 (interesting--I'm 4w5). He is really surprisingly emotional for an INTP and very prone to depression. He's very energized by his "investigations" but he's also easily depressed and discouraged about them. I wonder if that's a 5w4 thing?

I know exactly what you mean by that, and I have the same thing happen quite often.

I'm an emotional INTP too... I don't let my emotions make my decisions, but I am very sensitive to my feelings. Sometimes I feel like I can't handle my feelings because they're too overwhelming, and I get depressed about it. For example, an emotional blow like unrequited love devestates me for way longer than I feel is normal and healthy. I tend to dwell on things that couldn't be "completed" and therefore hurt me for a long time.

[aether]

It's not a 1:1 correlation. Enneagram deals with a different aspect of personality, namely motivation.

Also, it's not static, just like the MBTI preferences aren't static. You move around the Enneagram. You also can sink and rise in functionality in your "preferred" style.

Enneagram style is more of a verb, too. At least, that's how it makes sense to me. For instance, if my feeling side emerges, I tend to act more 4ish.

This is where I got it from.


Dave Kelly - PTypes (The Inventive and Artistic styles were created by Kelly, not Oldham.)

Oldham's Style Myers-Briggs Type Enneagram Type
Conscientious ENFJ 1
Sensitive INFJ 4w5
Vigilant ENFP 6w5
Dramatic INFP 4w3
Aggressive ENTJ 8
Idiosyncratic INTJ 5w4
Inventive ENTP 3w4
Solitary INTP 5w6
Leisurely ESTJ 9w8
Serious ISTJ 9w1
Self-Sacrificing ESFJ 2
Devoted ISFJ 6w7
Self-Confident ESTP 3w2
Adventurous ISTP 7w8
Mercurial ESFP 7w6
Artistic ISFP 7w6.

source (http://www.geocities.com/lifexplore/typecorr.htm)

[rivercrow]

This is where I got it from.
source (http://www.geocities.com/lifexplore/typecorr.htm)

I've seen this too. The more I read about Enneagram and MBTI, the more I believed the correlation was simplistic and misleading.

Enneagram has to do with motivation and buffers. MBTI doesn't tell you about buffers and beliefs--it tells you about how you interact with the world.

If you are an Introvert, you probably have a tendancy to use withdrawing buffers as coping mechanisms. E9, E5, and E4 all tend to withdraw in some way.

For example, I know a solid INTJ who is absolutely a 9. When faced with conflict, he withdraws to the point of disappearing. My husband, ISFJ, is also an E9 (mostly). I am reliably an INTP and am generally a 5w4; when I feel I am getting overwhelmed with sensation (not specifically conflict), I withdraw (conflict is not a problem for me). The motivations we have for withdrawing are different.

It's bad for either the INTJ or ISFJ to assume that all three of us share the same motivations for withdrawing. If an E9 assumes that I'm withdrawing b/c of conflict (sort of a passive aggressive response), then he may assume there is a conflict somewhere--the E9 may seek to repair a non-existent conflict.

If I assume the E9 is withdrawing b/c he is just sensually overloaded, then I will not understand there is a conflict somewhere. Or, b/c I do not withdraw from conflict, I may blunder in without respecting/understanding the E9's use of withdrawing from conflict as a buffer.

How can I use these tools together? I know that my ISFJ chooses a path of action quickly; I tend to weigh all my options. If I am troubled with something, I will weigh all options, mull it over (you as an INTP understand). This drives the ISFJ nuts; he may see my constant list of options as an attempt to argue. Conflict! So, rather than go along with me, he digs in his heels (J) and pulls back (E9). You get the idea.

You also use Enneagram to understand why you are doing something and free yourself from mindless reactions. When I feel the urge to withdraw (5), to exhibit romantic avoidance/attachment (w4), to make all things appear excellent (7), I need to be attuned to what is evoking these responses. If I move to 8, then I need to be aware that 8ing with a 9 may backfire badly (been there, done that, ate the fish).

Enough of that. PM me if you want more! I'm not an expert in it.

[rivercrow]

I think any hard & fast correlations are suspect.

If we exclude wings, then there are 9 E types and 16 MBTI types. That's not an even correlation.

Include wings, and we have 27 E types. Include variants, and you have 81 possible E types.

That doesn't consider that any E type may be operating anywhere on the healthiness spectrum.

My $.02.

[Slider]

I don't. There are more 6w5 and 5w6 INTPs here than 5w4s.

and 9s. and entp 7s who think they're intps. and social firsts.

[Serotonin]

Somehow I think the 5w4s will more readily put the fact that they are in their signature, wanting other people to know that they have that 'specialness' factor. Now that it's been ascertained that we are a dime a dozen here, I'm now going to be so non-conformist that I'm going to conform, and now say that I'm actually a 6w7soc, the most common type. Fuck you all, you pretentious wankers! Why can't you all just be normal like everyone else?

[CosmicDust]

Somehow I think the 5w4s will more readily put the fact that they are in their signature, wanting other people to know that they have that 'specialness' factor. Now that it's been ascertained that we are a dime a dozen here, I'm now going to be so non-conformist that I'm going to conform, and now say that I'm actually a 6w7soc, the most common type. Fuck you all, you pretentious wankers! Why can't you all just be normal like everyone else?

The fact that you see 5w4 in so many signatures only means that the people who *think* they're 5w4s are more likely to put their Enneagram type in their signatures. There also aren't enough "out" soc's around here. Your post inspired me to put my extended Enneagram type in my signature just to raise the count for genuine non-5w4s and soc's.

We do have some 9s who admit it...

And it's also expected that there are 6w5s. One strange phenomenon I've found is that there seem to be more self-typed INTJ 6w5s than INTP 6w5s online. Songbird has got to be an INTJ 6w5. Could Zedo be an INTP 6w5? He's quite a good flamer, as many 6w5s are...

[rivercrow]

I have it in my sig as a reminder to myself.

Living as 5w4 creates some uncomfortable tensions. At best, I can be very creative and thoughtful. At worse, I can sabotage (or feel the urge to sabotage) personal relationships in ways best left undescribed.

When I feel 5w4 urges emerging, it's a wake-up call for me to pay attention. Sometimes I have troubles recognizing and dealing with my own emotions. Having a big road bump like "I need to withdraw, there's too much noise here" can sometimes refocus my awareness of what is bothering me just under my awareness level.

It's just a tool, really. Like a pressure gauge.

[random speck]

I imagine typing someone IRL would be easier, because you have more information to work with.

Oddly enough, if I'm too close to someone... I have a harder time seeing their underlying patterns and motivation... thus figuring out their type

But once I step back and see them from a distance, I see much more clearly

Online, I don't have this problem

[Ryuko]

I often feel the need to 'type' people... well, more like, analyze them. I have never really coined people as "This one is an INTP," etc... and I prefer not to, so I try to stop myself from analyzing people. Afterall, they're my friends. x.x;

I put my type in my signature not to say "Look at me, I'm rare!" I didn't even know the rarity of it when I did. I put it on the same level as when people put their Jung type in their signature... It's just another part of how my mind works. As far as the three defining factors go, I'd have to go with sx. I'm such a hopeless romantic. x.x;

[illusivemind]

I don't like pigeonholing but I do find analyzing friends in the context of MBTI or Enneagram can actually help me relate to them better. By seeing how the world might appear to them I can stop myself from thinking only in terms of how the world appears to me.

For example, understanding that whilst I intensely dislike over effusive people, I know that sometimes this is their genuine way of being friendly and not superficial and pretentious, as my cynical bent will conclude.

[wildcat]

I don't. There are more 6w5 and 5w6 INTPs here than 5w4s.
It does not seem that way for me.

[Jennywocky]

My relationship with feelings is kind of strange. They seem to occur in pretty much a normal human way from what I've read about normal human emotions, yet due to the contexts in which they show and my way of talking about them rather than from them, I manage to come across as robotic or Vulcanlike at times. This is what it is to not be integrated with emotions. My mind can treat them almost like an external object sometimes, even though I can't seem to keep them from showing up in situations where I don't want them to.

That's been my experience, especially when I talk with xxFx types.

I feel like I am very "emotionally aware" for being an INTP and even a general "Thinking" type, but at core but I still don't "express" my feelings.

Instead, I describe them, analyze them, critique them, and explain why they are working the way they are -- just as we're doing here.

They are still 'detached' from me in a sense, like a separate object I can turn around in my hands and examine.

I don't know if that will ever go away. Maybe it shouldn't. Everyone is different, and weaknesses are also strengths (and vice versa).

[Jennywocky]

Oddly enough, if I'm too close to someone... I have a harder time seeing their underlying patterns and motivation... thus figuring out their type

But once I step back and see them from a distance, I see much more clearly

Online, I don't have this problem


Hmmm. Online isn't awful as far as typing people -- but you're only getting one sort of information, and the fact that some people cannot articulate themselves accurate or well when they write sometimes leads to false readings. I take more time to type most people online, if I can type them accurately at all.

In RL, I don't have an issue. I've been able to accurately "type" the majority of people (verified by spending some more time with them and "checking my prediction") in the space of 15 seconds to about 1-2 minutes of conversation.

I have a LOT more data to go off in RL -- presence, appearance, confidence level, what they say, how they say it, what they focus on, etc. It's the context of how they present themselves, what sort of world they perceive, and how they judge it that tells me what I need to know.

[Note: The sense is probably stronger in me because I grew up in an emotionally dangerous situation and became hypervigilant and withdrawn. So the only information I got was what I could figure out myself, based on context clues, and observing people at great length. This wasn't very good for my relationships but it's still useful, I guess.]

[Jennywocky]

I don't like pigeonholing but I do find analyzing friends in the context of MBTI or Enneagram can actually help me relate to them better. By seeing how the world might appear to them I can stop myself from thinking only in terms of how the world appears to me.

For example, understanding that whilst I intensely dislike over effusive people, I know that sometimes this is their genuine way of being friendly and not superficial and pretentious, as my cynical bent will conclude.

That's the same progression I've made over the years. People like Nancy Grace or Patsy Ramsey (ESFJ's, I think) were the epitome of evil to me for a LONG time.

But as I got older, I realized that -- although if I behaved that way, I would be playing a role -- they are actually sincere and that's how they express themselves and where their focus is.

So it's really helped me to accept others and see things from different eyes. I still don't get along well with some types, but now at least I can value and respect them as long as they're "healthy" overall.

[Jennywocky]

I've realised I'm a 5w4, after some consideration. I always had the impression 5w4's are over emotional and self-pitying, so I wanted to know from those who have met any 5w4's: what's your impression of them?

The deal with me, at least:

The emotional state (artistic/human element of things) is very important to me. While my ultimate focus as an INTP or Five is on "how things work," I am also very much focused on "What is the MEANING of this world and my life?"

Not just HOW, but WHY.

I've been called moody sometimes, especially because I do not express my emotions externally often (except when I get really, really angry) -- I just experience them intensely inside and explore them as a way to discover truth.

So when I'm in an emotional state, I don't WANT to get out of it because that feels untruthful to me. Instead, I want to explore why I feel something so deeply, understand why, and determine what that means about myself and about humanity. I have to basically intensify the feeling and immerse myself in it, in order to examine it more closely.

This can come off as self-absorbed, self-pitying, etc. But it's not, in one sense; I'm not focused on bemoaning my fate, except perhaps as an exercise of what that means and why someone might do it. Again, it's partly a controlled experiment even though I am actually feeling these strong emotions; the end result is still focused on "discovery" rather than on self-pampering or self-coddling.

I don't want special treatment or people "walking on eggshells" around me, although the behavior might resemble other self-absorbed folks (and I get angry when I realize people ARE tiptoeing around or trying to placate my emotions).

I just want to the freedom to explore what these internal states means.

The differences were more apparent with my 4w5 friend, who did drop more into self-pitying mode. She loves to learn and is quite intelligent, and we could have some very wonderful conversations; but she was more prone to running off her emotions and creating quiet drama around her, using her observations and thoughts to guide her, while I was observing and using drama/art to explore ideas.

There's some overlap, sure. It's not as clear-cut as I make it sound. I'm merely reducing things to the very basic components of motivation.

[Oculus Sinister]

I think I am a hybrid of INFJ and INTP. My mom was INTP and my dad is INFJ. I experience a wide range of moods that I enjoy experiencing. Also, I see everything and I mean everything as a connected whole. From the scratched off sticker that resembles a lizard on parking sign to the license plate numbers I take notice of day to day. All of this is connected and uncannilly directed or related to me. Also, musical songs and anything else I experience.

Also, I have a very strong leaning toward aesthetic appreciation. I am just now starting to appreciate and explore this. Every single item and image I see has the possibility of being changed into something different. Why just today driving by a tractor, I saw a part of it that resembled the beaks of a duck. Pattern recognition is something I experience daily and at times when I draw something it will appear to me in reality. Logically, b/c I subconcsiously programmed it into my head but nonetheless.

Also, I feel and I think a lot. I am sensitive, admittedly, though I am able to utilize my INTP/type 5 to shut this up. Also, by sensitive I mean senstive to others moods and senstive to presence/arrangement of organic life. And I can see beauty in a burnt up crack house, in fact I will look through the rubble and find the projection of a hand shaking another or something like that. When my type 5/intp side holds in emotion it In turn causes my INFJ/ type 4 side to become very melancholly to a dangerous level. Manic states are possible and have been experienced in the past.

The need to express and design is a dominating theme in my life. Not so much as a type 5 who becomes an information junkie but I am a 5x4 who will work hours on hours on end neglecting alll other things to express that which lies w/ in. Also, I experience a great deal of perceptual nuances that are uncanny in nature. A previous post where I saw my soul was not a joke and perhaps it was the imagination and intellect having their kicks.

Also, I am very sensitive to my environment, to sound, to furniture arrangement, to the amount of light which in my house is extremely depressing because of the lack thereof. Also, I am sensitive to a point of eyes watering when I am creating certain things. They are felt deeply through the work and bizarrely release from me. In other words, I am INTPclueness why they flood out of me. I feel like I am a sponge that absorbs all that I experience in life type 5 style in order to release it into aesthetic creations type 4 style. When I say absorb, I have noticed that I put ohters at ease, a lot of perceptive girls have commented and one guy told me that my 3rd eye was visible. He was in some odd religion, very eastern combining God, hindu and buddhism. But, like I said I am a sponge that goes out into the world and absorbs the pain of others or the feelilngs and I knowt his is really subjective but it holds a truth. It is that sensitivity that someone previously mentioned and it is very type 4 to absorb others emotions/sensations and very type 5 to absorb facts/details/ideas.

One last thing, my imagination is capable of extraordinary things. Lately, everythingg in reality is looked upon beyond what lies there. Anything and everything is linked into this playground where projection occurs in ever situation you can imagine. It has become so strong that when I take a piss sometimes, I can hear the projected sound of some other deep meaning.

I just thought of a possible explanation as to why it is possible that I am hybrid INFJ/INTP. Perhaps, my subconscious operates in the domain of the INFJ. I have in the past and do still experience a great deal of introverted intuition. Also, perhaps consciously I interact w/ the world as a type 5 INTP.

Recently, I had a friend(possibly ESTP because of his ability to size me up) that I am so pent up inside that whatever work I do the feelings that lay therein are going to cause it to peak to new levels. I am hoping this is true because now more than ever I have been exploring myself artistically.

[Jennywocky]

I just thought of a possible explanation as to why it is possible that I am hybrid INFJ/INTP. Perhaps, my subconscious operates in the domain of the INFJ. I have in the past and do still experience a great deal of introverted intuition. Also, perhaps consciously I interact w/ the world as a type 5 INTP.

I found your description very detailed and appreciated you sharing it, since it really conveys your personal experience. It's interesting you discuss this hybrid.

Being a 5w4 INTP, I've found that INFJ's are the most "attractive" type to me. The women who have spontaneously intrigued me the most and who I felt immediately close to and communicate very very well with have all been INFJ.

So I was recently pondering whether there's an innate kinship there between the aesthetically minded INTP and the INFJ (or even perhaps a more scientific INFJ and the average INTP).

In terms of distinguishing between INTP and INFJ, a main difference is the perceiving/judging thing.

The INFJ operates from Ni and then tries to structure the outer world according (which is the artistic bent manifest). The INTP structures the inner thoughts with Ti and simply perceives the outer world through Ne.

So an INFJ will usually try to impose more structure externally than an INTP cares to. That's one large observable difference.

However, both INTPs and INFJs extravert Feeling and introvert Thinking. Depending on how well the two types have developed their lesser functions, these are big points of overlap/connection.

There's an author by the name of Stephen R. Donaldson ("The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant") who writes with the philosophical intensity and broadness of an INTP, but when I actually saw the guy in a video, I recognized him as an INFJ type simply by his demeanor and carefully listening to his approach to art and life.

What this says to me is that, depending on how they develop, the INFJ and INTP can have much in common.

[Arfael]

I have it in my sig as a reminder to myself.

Living as 5w4 creates some uncomfortable tensions. At best, I can be very creative and thoughtful. At worse, I can sabotage (or feel the urge to sabotage) personal relationships in ways best left undescribed.

When I feel 5w4 urges emerging, it's a wake-up call for me to pay attention. Sometimes I have troubles recognizing and dealing with my own emotions. Having a big road bump like "I need to withdraw, there's too much noise here" can sometimes refocus my awareness of what is bothering me just under my awareness level.

It's just a tool, really. Like a pressure gauge.

Yeah, this also happens to me in many cases. I sometimes wish I'm more normal... :huh:

[Macrophage]

Errr...

I'm afraid that all it means to me is my mom.

[Tonks]

I've realised I'm a 5w4, after some consideration. I always had the impression 5w4's are over emotional and self-pitying, so I wanted to know from those who have met any 5w4's: what's your impression of them?

For reference:

Five With a 4 Wing:
The difference between the 4 wing and the 6 wing in Fives is like the difference between Art and Science. 4 wing brings an abstract, intuitive cast of thought, as though the Five were thinking in geometric shapes instead of words or realistic images. May be talented artistically and inhabit moods like Fours do. Combine intellectual and emotional imagination. Enjoy the realm of philosophy and beautiful constructs of thought. The marriage of mental perspective and aesthetics is the best of life for them.

When more defensive may seem a little ghostly, have a whisper in their voice. Fluctuate between impersonal withdrawal and bursts of friendly caring. Can get floaty and abstract. Act like they're inside a bubble, sometimes with an air of implicit superiority. Clich? of the "absentminded professor" applies especially to Fives with this wing.

Environmentally sensitive and subject at times to total overwhelm. Touchy about criticism. Can be slow to recover from traumatic events. Melancholy isolation and bleak existential depression are possible pitfalls.

Five With a 6 Wing

The 6 wing brings an orientation to detail and technical knowledge, along with the tendency to think in logical sequence. Especially intellectual, far more analytical than Fives with a 4 wing. Can be loyal friends, offering strong behind-the-scenes support. Kind, patient teachers, skillful experts. May have a sense of mission and work hard.

Sometimes project an aura of sensitive nerdiness and have clumsy social skills. When defensive, they can be unnerved by the expectations of others. May like people more but avoid them more. Especially sensitive to social indebtedness. Could have trouble saying "thank you." Fear of taking action, develop "information addiction" instead. Ask lots of questions but don't get around to the decision at hand.

When more entranced, they develop a suspicious scrutiny of other people's motives but can also be blind followers. Misanthropic and Scrooge-like when defensive. More able to keep their feelings cut off in a constant way. Can be cold, skeptical, ironic, and disassociated.

A Five's 6 wing can be phobic or counterphobic. Counterphobic 6 wing brings courage and antiauthoritarian attitudes. When defensive they may mock authority, or angrily tell others off. Tend to "push the envelope," experiment, find what the limits are.

I'm an INTP and 5w4, but borderliny close to INFP and 4w5. This description really describes me well.

The 5w6 description sounds more like an ST to me. I knew one ISTJ who was addicted to data of human population numbers. At first he appeared to be INTJ, when I got more - ahem- intimately involved with him he even looked like an INTP for a while, untill I realised he was neither. Strange. This happened to me before. I guess it was 'the aura of nerdiness' that got me fooled twice.

[Camelopardalis]

I think I am a hybrid of INFJ and INTP. My mom was INTP and my dad is INFJ. I experience a wide range of moods that I enjoy experiencing. Also, I see everything and I mean everything as a connected whole. From the scratched off sticker that resembles a lizard on parking sign to the license plate numbers I take notice of day to day. All of this is connected and uncannilly directed or related to me. Also, musical songs and anything else I experience.

Is personality traits hereditary? My mother's ISFJ and my father is ENTP, and I share two preferences with both of them. I was actually an outward ISFJ when I was young, but it was sort of expected by social norm, almost. I'm also 5w4 and it's quite accurate. I used to have the 'eccentric genius' image ;D But I've become much more 'human'.

[Jennywocky]

Is personality traits hereditary? My mother's ISFJ and my father is ENTP, and I share two preferences with both of them. I was actually an outward ISFJ when I was young, but it was sort of expected by social norm, almost. I'm also 5w4 and it's quite accurate. I used to have the 'eccentric genius' image ;D But I've become much more 'human'.

They don't seem to be hereditary (you can't predict the children's types based on the parents' types).

However, children model themselves after their parents... so your parents' types will have a profound impact upon your development depending on how involved with you they are. Sometimes this impact is positive, sometimes it is negative... but it's still there. It could involve mirroring some of their "other type" traits, or it could involve more mature use of your own main functions or even early development of some of your lesser-preferred functions.

[StarNips]

I find these parts surprisingly accurate:

"4 wing brings an abstract, intuitive cast of thought, as though the Five were thinking in geometric shapes instead of words or realistic images...
Fluctuate between impersonal withdrawal and bursts of friendly caring. Can get floaty and abstract. Act like they're inside a bubble, sometimes with an air of implicit superiority. Clich[e]? of the "absentminded professor" applies especially to Fives with this wing.

Environmentally sensitive and subject at times to total overwhelm. Touchy about criticism. Can be slow to recover from traumatic events. Melancholy isolation and bleak existential depression are possible pitfalls."

[indigo]

i think i'm a 5w4 and although i'm still a drooling undergrad it seems like we're the most eminently unemployable of all intp types.

that is, for a lack of that technical edge which can do so well for IT or science careers.

I consider myself as a 5w4 intp.
I think computer science(programming,IT) is so dry & I'd rather psychology than
neuroscience for the same reason.(I prefer behavioral neuroscience)

[fripping]

I consider myself as a 5w4 intp.
I think computer science(programming,IT) is so dry & I'd rather psychology than
neuroscience for the same reason.(I prefer behavioral neuroscience)

you got a job, fella? i would have been fired a long time ago if not for corruption. i'm sure, you know, if i got a higher degree in psychology i could be a professor. . . part time. . . at a community college. . . in china.

[1198]

(... what does 5w6 mean? I mean, what personality test is this?)

[indigo]

you got a job, fella? i would have been fired a long time ago if not for corruption. i'm sure, you know, if i got a higher degree in psychology i could be a professor. . . part time. . . at a community college. . . in china.
ya,I did but I don't like it!
why in china? you're underestimating fripping!

[indigo]

(... what does 5w6 mean? I mean, what personality test is this?)
:shock:

[mal12345]

Scoring (being?) 5w4 means I am more interested in personality crap than most people. I mean, intellectually interested not so much practically. You won't find very many if any estp's, for ex., even thinking about this stuff. Yes I have found ways to apply personality typology to my own life, but only very rarely.

I found this site through googling for "ansir" some months or maybe years ago. From the thread I found on the subject I didn't think some posters here gave it enough of a chance. Ansir meshes well with my intuition that people evince different personalities in different settings, such as my boss who has two personalities, one suitable for his home life and one for the workplace where he is owner/manager. I typed him as a working Idealist using ansir, it fits him like a glove. But I don't consider that applied typology, only if I somehow applied the thought of him as a working Idealist. But how does one do this? By adjusting one's responses to the other person, I suppose, as I have done in the past using typology results. Or figuring out what someone needs, and providing it, before they can communicate it to you.

At the very least, typology taught me that everybody is different, that no two people are alike, and probably most importantly, that most other people think differently from me. And I tend to carry some disdain for people I consider bright and yet who make the mistake of thinking everybody is basically the same. They are not, I learned this at a young age.

I am probably more interested in applying this stuff because I am an IS/NTP and not just a pure theoretician or system builder. But 5/4 fits well, it is just so limiting. The levels of disintegration bring a little more to the Enneagram than the mbti provides, but the self-comparison to some ideal at level 1 - who may not even exist in the universe - is frustrating. Or thinking I'm at least better than the poor devil at level 9, assuming such a person even exists.

And what about the person who scored evenly high on types 7 and 9? That to me cries out for an Ansir. It could be that this person is emotionally a 9 but also a working 7, or a thinking 7. Who knows?

But those commenters on the Ansir thread who think Ansir needs to be correlated with the Enneagram or something else are mistaken. This mistake was influenced by Don Riso, who engaged endlessly in such correlations and who borrowed heavily from mbti as well as the DSM. This strongly encourages his readers to think that drawing such correlations is necessary. Or that we should do as he did and reduce all other systems to the Enneagram (even if this requires forcing a round peg into a square hole just to prove that the Enneagram is "right"). In fact, there is not enough redundancy between different personalities to make such correlations even feasible in the long run, and there is no "correct" system that would make reduction to its form possible. Many times I have seen that typologists cannot even separate personality structure from cognitive style. At least the Ansir makes the effort but even then (I did read her book) you can see where they get mixed up in the type descriptions. Plus, the official Ansir book is... a little weird, but that's going way off-topic for this thread.

~~

Newbie! no picture yet...

[indigo]

Scoring (being?) 5w4 means I am more interested in personality crap than most people. I mean, intellectually interested not so much practically. You won't find very many if any estp's, for ex., even thinking about this stuff. Yes I have found ways to apply personality typology to my own life, but only very rarely.

I found this site through googling for "ansir" some months or maybe years ago. From the thread I found on the subject I didn't think some posters here gave it enough of a chance. Ansir meshes well with my intuition that people evince different personalities in different settings, ...

tnx. I should check it out.

[mal12345]

tnx. I should check it out.

The Ansir thread? or the official Ansir website which was shut down a couple years ago? The Ansir personality test was available there for free but now I see they charge for it on another site.

I see one copy of the Ansir book Three Sides of You is still available on Amazon.

This book includes the spiffy test, of course.

Some reviewers at Amazon claim that the test was hard but I've taken harder psyche evaluations than this by far.

[indigo]

or the official Ansir website which was shut down a couple years ago? The Ansir personality test was available there for free but now I see they charge for it on another site.



Just my luck!

[mal12345]

Update - I just looked in the book "3 Sides of You" and it indicates that the test is only found online.

Bummer.

However, that is not precisely true. I printed the test off the website years ago and still have it.

[indigo]

Update - I just looked in the book "3 Sides of You" and it indicates that the test is only found online.

Bummer.

However, that is not precisely true. I printed the test off the website years ago and still have it.

I'd like to take the test but it will end up no results!
anyway,still curious about it!
plz send me a copy of it if possible.

[mal12345]

Ok. By the way, the site had printing disabled for obvious reasons, but someone forgot to disable screen capture. So it came out as pictures not as text. However, the good news is that I found a way to pinpoint each question's category. So next to each question I have written things like "Sen" and "Kin."

This gave me the ability to question and correct the accuracy of the test key. For example, I have written "realist not eccentric" next to one question because the key scored the question as "eccentric" but to me the category that obviously fit the question best was "realist."

[Sizzaxe]

I'm a 5w4. At least that's what I test every time i take an ennie test. And the best way i've heard 5w4 described is 'science expressed artistically'. But most of the time the examples i find of this are somewhat lame. To me it's more about loving the beauty in science--particularly evident in math and sometimes physics. But truth to tell, other than in my angst ridden moments, intp is a more helpful pigeonhole for me than 5w4.

The enneagram construct seems more based on dysfunction and the mbti on high functionality. But then I've never liked the idea of "integrating" as expressed in the enneagram philosophy.

from my current pespec anyway

[mal12345]

I'm a 5w4. At least that's what I test every time i take an ennie test. And the best way i've heard 5w4 described is 'science expressed artistically'. But most of the time the examples i find of this are somewhat lame. To me it's more about loving the beauty in science--particularly evident in math and sometimes physics. But truth to tell, other than in my angst ridden moments, intp is a more helpful pigeonhole for me than 5w4.

The enneagram construct seems more based on dysfunction and the mbti on high functionality. But then I've never liked the idea of "integrating" as expressed in the enneagram philosophy.

from my current pespec anyway

I wrote a longish reply and then clicked the wrong button and lost it all. I backed up the browser to try finding it but found that the forum software does not save edit-box text.

[mal12345]

I'm a 5w4. At least that's what I test every time i take an ennie test. And the best way i've heard 5w4 described is 'science expressed artistically'. But most of the time the examples i find of this are somewhat lame. To me it's more about loving the beauty in science--particularly evident in math and sometimes physics. But truth to tell, other than in my angst ridden moments, intp is a more helpful pigeonhole for me than 5w4.

The enneagram construct seems more based on dysfunction and the mbti on high functionality. But then I've never liked the idea of "integrating" as expressed in the enneagram philosophy.

from my current pespec anyway

I haven't lost a forum reply in a long time, it would have to happen in one using software novel to me. I'll just answer more briefly in the general direction of your post. The Riso Enneagram is not more based on dysfunction, it is based on integration/disintegration. It is unique to other Enneagram systems in this way. The MBTI is based on average to dysfunctional levels. The Riso Enneagram is the only one I know of that focuses on levels. Anybody at level 1 (if this person exists) may at any time experience the stress point for his type. I don't think it's even correct for me to say that a level 1 person may exist, more likely there is going to be up and down motion along the levels as there is movement back and forth around the Enneagram.

[mal12345]

I'd like to take the test but it will end up no results!
anyway,still curious about it!
plz send me a copy of it if possible.

If you give me your email I will scan and send you the "Working" category of the Ansir test, comprising 6 pages and 56 questions. I have a working test key to score it with. I'll clean up the margin notes so the test will be easier to read.

Then email the results back to me in a form that's easy to score.

[INaTeePee]

I've tested 5w4 on several different tests and it describes me well, so I think it's my Enneagram type. To me, it says that I'm mainly INTP but with an ISFP aspect. I recently tested ISTP, but I think it's just a mesh of my INTP and ISFP. People have called me things like "in a cloud", "spaced out" or aspergers.

[Lux]

The more I read the descriptions, the more I realize I'm 5w4. The thing about Enneagram is that you are completely transparent before it. Its like someone can read your mind, and being INTJ, I really dislike that, not to mention my 4 wing wants to be "unique".

The search for beauty definitely dominates a large part of my life. When I mention I want to major in physics, people are often perplexed because they don't see me as "that type". It's hard to explain that I want to study physics only for its philosophical beauty; I hate labs and don't enjoy experimentation. I just want to know, and I don't plan on becoming a research scientist. My whole life can be summed up in the pursuit of a perfect personal vision of the world, which is why people find that I have so many interests, ranging from math to Econ to sociology and music, because they are all essential building blocks to a coherent worldview.

I definitely value beauty over logic. I tried to deny it when I had been a hardcore atheist, but it's hard to hide the fact that I much prefer the intuitive personal religion than the cold, inhuman logic of atheists like Richard Dawkins, I find that he has fundamentally misunderstood religion. He's only concerned about the empirical claims religions are making, and ignoring the spiritual dimension and implies that people who believe are dumb, instead of looking for existential and spiritual reasons for belief. I have a finely tuned sense of aesthetics and would often refuse to be in a room with terrible decor or loud music. Last time I was at karaoke with my friends, a combination of loud volume and terrible music overwhelmed me and I developed a headache, even to the point of dozing off in that racket.

I'm also concerned about being an individual, which is why I'm so resistant to the idea of being "common". I would frequently count the ways I differ from others, and would often be relieved that my typology/gender combination is among the most rare. I'm also concerned with my right to privacy and to disappear, and it would often bother me if I can be found easily when I want to be hidden. This would lead me to ignore phone calls, or sabotaging my relationships. In my unhealthy states, I seek to annihilate all social connections.

In my depressive states, I am likely to view everything as hideous (therefore contrary to my ideal of beauty) and meaningless. I would wish for the world to disappear and want to destroy it, but knowing I can't, I would like to destroy myself instead, anything but to live here any longer. I would find all sorts of reasons of why I shouldn't have been born, and would be prone to bliss-and-horror mood swings. I would curse my mind, but it would not stop mocking me.

[fripping]

The more I read the descriptions, the more I realize I'm 5w4. The thing about Enneagram is that you are completely transparent before it. Its like someone can read your mind, and being INTJ, I really dislike that, not to mention my 4 wing wants to be "unique".

The search for beauty definitely dominates a large part of my life. When I mention I want to major in physics, people are often perplexed because they don't see me as "that type". It's hard to explain that I want to study physics only for its philosophical beauty; I hate labs and don't enjoy experimentation. I just want to know, and I don't plan on becoming a research scientist. My whole life can be summed up in the pursuit of a perfect personal vision of the world, which is why people find that I have so many interests, ranging from math to Econ to sociology and music, because they are all essential building blocks to a coherent worldview.

I definitely value beauty over logic. I tried to deny it when I had been a hardcore atheist, but it's hard to hide the fact that I much prefer the intuitive personal religion than the cold, inhuman logic of atheists like Richard Dawkins, I find that he has fundamentally misunderstood religion. He's only concerned about the empirical claims religions are making, and ignoring the spiritual dimension and implies that people who believe are dumb, instead of looking for existential and spiritual reasons for belief. I have a finely tuned sense of aesthetics and would often refuse to be in a room with terrible decor or loud music. Last time I was at karaoke with my friends, a combination of loud volume and terrible music overwhelmed me and I developed a headache, even to the point of dozing off in that racket.

I'm also concerned about being an individual, which is why I'm so resistant to the idea of being "common". I would frequently count the ways I differ from others, and would often be relieved that my typology/gender combination is among the most rare. I'm also concerned with my right to privacy and to disappear, and it would often bother me if I can be found easily when I want to be hidden. This would lead me to ignore phone calls, or sabotaging my relationships. In my unhealthy states, I seek to annihilate all social connections.

In my depressive states, I am likely to view everything as hideous (therefore contrary to my ideal of beauty) and meaningless. I would wish for the world to disappear and want to destroy it, but knowing I can't, I would like to destroy myself instead, anything but to live here any longer. I would find all sorts of reasons of why I shouldn't have been born, and would be prone to bliss-and-horror mood swings. I would curse my mind, but it would not stop mocking me.

very nice. i like.

[god and friends]

The more I read the descriptions, the more I realize I'm 5w4. The thing about Enneagram is that you are completely transparent before it. Its like someone can read your mind, and being INTJ, I really dislike that, not to mention my 4 wing wants to be "unique".

The search for beauty definitely dominates a large part of my life. When I mention I want to major in physics, people are often perplexed because they don't see me as "that type". It's hard to explain that I want to study physics only for its philosophical beauty; I hate labs and don't enjoy experimentation. I just want to know, and I don't plan on becoming a research scientist. My whole life can be summed up in the pursuit of a perfect personal vision of the world, which is why people find that I have so many interests, ranging from math to Econ to sociology and music, because they are all essential building blocks to a coherent worldview.

I definitely value beauty over logic. I tried to deny it when I had been a hardcore atheist, but it's hard to hide the fact that I much prefer the intuitive personal religion than the cold, inhuman logic of atheists like Richard Dawkins, I find that he has fundamentally misunderstood religion. He's only concerned about the empirical claims religions are making, and ignoring the spiritual dimension and implies that people who believe are dumb, instead of looking for existential and spiritual reasons for belief. I have a finely tuned sense of aesthetics and would often refuse to be in a room with terrible decor or loud music. Last time I was at karaoke with my friends, a combination of loud volume and terrible music overwhelmed me and I developed a headache, even to the point of dozing off in that racket.

I'm also concerned about being an individual, which is why I'm so resistant to the idea of being "common". I would frequently count the ways I differ from others, and would often be relieved that my typology/gender combination is among the most rare. I'm also concerned with my right to privacy and to disappear, and it would often bother me if I can be found easily when I want to be hidden. This would lead me to ignore phone calls, or sabotaging my relationships. In my unhealthy states, I seek to annihilate all social connections.

In my depressive states, I am likely to view everything as hideous (therefore contrary to my ideal of beauty) and meaningless. I would wish for the world to disappear and want to destroy it, but knowing I can't, I would like to destroy myself instead, anything but to live here any longer. I would find all sorts of reasons of why I shouldn't have been born, and would be prone to bliss-and-horror mood swings. I would curse my mind, but it would not stop mocking me.

welcome to 4w5


very nice. i like.
.

[LivingFlow]

I would guess that I am 5 with 4 wing. I've recently discovered the enneagram test and was shocked how true 5 was to me. And how it describes so much that has been such a mysterious to me I have not been able to relate or explain to other people. My aloofness and preoccupation, why I "forget" to socialize with my friends regularly and need to have periodically breaks from interacting with friends and loved ones. 5 fits me to a 'T' in so many ways, expect for the many insinuations that I continue to read that 5s are drawn to scientific data and academics. I was born with Dyslexia, Dyscalculia (math learning disorder), and Attention Deficit Disorder. So needless to say, I didn't spend my time as a child with a book in hand or working out math problems. Luckily, I've been very blessed creatively, like 4. And many of my internalized questions I pondered on and tried to understand were relationship and philosophical oriented- more like 4. But there are definitely fundamental differences between 4 and myself, such as 4 longing to dwell on negative experiences and emotions. I don't want to do that, I find that draining and only want to think of positive things. I'd rather distract myself with enjoyable activities or retreat to happier world in my mind. Also it appears paradoxically, 4s establish themselves as unique individuals but that makes them feel misunderstood from some articles I read. Which being misunderstood, isn't a concept I think about nor care about. I relish in my uniqueness and its one the major pillars of my self-esteem, even when it makes others raise a brow. ;) Also I don't have that fear of abandonment or any other of those desperate and dark emotions from 4. Admittedly, I do make up continuous romantic fantasies in my head, but people who act desperate or very needy to be in romantic intimate relationships at all times annoy me. I believe very strongly that you should not be completely dependent on another human being to the "savior" of your emotional dissatisfaction, unhappiness, emptiness, lack of purpose, etc. I have never hastily sought out a date or companionship, and any weakness *urging* me to be in a romantic relationship when I am currently not already in one, I solved in my own mind and stayed independent. So for the most part, its the interests of 4 that is the same as me, but not really any of the underlying base emotions. The emotions, thinking, responses of 5 all ring more true for me expect for the one idea of intense academia interests, specifically sciences.

[D33P7HR047]

http://www.eclecticenergies.com/enneagram/type4.php


Intellectual Fours tend to mistakenly type themselves as Fives, and a heavy wing can certainly exacerbate this tendency. Fours however, unlike Fives, tend to be self-revealing and comfortable with emotional expression

Do you perhaps view this is the case?

Even then much of the criteria can wane.

Even if you had the opportunity to be professionally diagnosed with what you claim to have, many of the factors can sometimes depend upon environment and predisposition to certain approaches to thinking, that sometimes exhibit themselves characteristically with the diagnosis. Not saying that certain so-called disability don't exist, or what would characterize them. I wouldn't call such diagnosis anything that should question the approaches and interest of the human mind to find interest in the 5 enneagram traits, and many would beg to question whether the tendency to exhibit diagnosis would necessarily be considered disability, but rather a different approach to thinking that is at a disadvantage within curricula.

[ObtainGnosis]

I think for myself the difference is not being as comfortable with living in complete intellectual abstraction. I want to explore the universe with my rational mind, but feel that this must be incorporated with feeling, passion, imagination, and style. A 5w4, drawing from the subjective preoccupation of the 4, in some sense, has a desire to unify their personal feelings and day to day reality with the universe of realization they've discovered with a typically 5 approach. It's not enough just to know and analyze intellectually, but one has to unify ones reality and personality with the collective implications of that knowing down to the emotional core and fiber of ones being, their essential identity. And since quite often, this takes expression in an artistic, unorthodox, and unusual reality, 5w4 tends to be especially eccentric and individualistic, dwelling in vivid alternative realities both cerebrally and emotionally. I suppose this really expresses a failure to achieve true actualization though. The ideal is to actually be the real instrument of ones created vision, but more often this is substituted for just privately dwelling in a world of visionary fantasy and taking no action.

Essentially what I'm saying is that it seems like the T and F functions are more integrated than in 5 or 5wOtherWings, but both are directed toward the cultivation of internal realities. 5w4s take thought-scapes very personally and are seeking to unify the 5's quest for knowledge (however that may take expression) with our essential character.