My views in point form.

[KoDeN]

In no particular order....


We exist.
The world exists.
Something metaphysical must have set existance into motion.
Created existance must have a purpose.
Something metaphysical must maintain this motion.
The metaphysical must have a mind in order to have purpose for existance.


A couple thoughts.

[int]

Are those points supposed to form an arguement of some sort?

[jimkopelli]

In no particular order....


We exist.
The world exists.
Something metaphysical must have set existance into motion.
Created existance must have a purpose.
Something metaphysical must maintain this motion.
The metaphysical must have a mind in order to have purpose for existance.


A couple thoughts.

Ya lost me around #3... ever heard the phrase... "Sometimes, things just happen."? Also, who says existance has to have a purpose? What if the purpose is simply that existing is easier than any alternative?

[KoDeN]

If existance was set into motion by a metaphysical force, well use the term creation just because its the most accurate. If existance at one point did not exist... I think that if something is created, that there needs to be a purpose for its creation.

To an INTP isnt everything an argument in some way or another? I have found that when discussing religion it is best to start at the most basic concepts of logic and existance and work from there.

[Almaviva]

In no particular order....


We exist.


Agreed.



The world exists.


Agreed.



Something metaphysical must have set existance into motion.


Here's where it isn't obvious to me.

Possibilities:

1. The universe just is.
2. The universe was created by God (meaning some external metaphysical thing). God just is.
(3. The universe was created by God, Who was created by some other metaphysical process, which just is...)

In some ways, 1 is pretty elegant already.

Anyway, you use the past tense "set". What does that mean? Given that, under relativity, the order in which things happen isn't even absolute, depending on the observer.



Created existance must have a purpose.


Not obvious to me. Must it have a purpose we could possibly understand?



Something metaphysical must maintain this motion.


Who maintains the metaphysical that is maintaining this motion?



The metaphysical must have a mind in order to have purpose for existance.


What do you mean by a "mind"? Something like a human being's mind?

[Johnny]

Words like "must" and "should" are difficult words for philosophical discourse. Try using the words "therefore" or "become" instead and have some real fun!

:sombrero:

[Birdsnest]

Yes, and where does the metaphysical force come from? I believe the answer could be from Polarity, from opposites, from good, bad, up, down, gravity, weightlessness, life/death etc.

I think life is like a wheel, or a yin/yang symbol, you have black and white, good and bad, creation and destruction, heaven and hell, up and down, and each work to propel each other into motion, almost like polar opposite forces working to gain momentum, and once the momentum is started, the opposites propel each other into infinity/eternity.

I think we are all part of the eternal, its not really the end when we die, our souls become part of something eternal.

Yes, there is good and bad in the world, but each has a purpose and if viewed from a "holistic" perspective, each will happen to make room for the other, to set the cycle in motion, as do seasons, tides, planets, time, life, everything is in this cycle.

There is empty space and filled space, and when its empty, you can fill it with whatever truth you like, because the truth will empty itself out, and wait to be filled again, every day you must refill with your or any truth, and its always changing. Fill it with the moment, empty it again and fill it again. Its a cycle.

[KoDeN]

I think the metaphysical being is first of all omnipotent. Maintaining the universe, moving and affecting matter down to its most infinitesimal degrees to follow its function. I think that it is impossible for the physical to function of its own accord.

If this being is omnipotence then that means this being must be eternal. An omnipotent being can not be bound by anything, including time.

If this being has always existed, how could it be created? Unless of course there is some supermetaphysical existance. But seeing is how it is nigh impossible to delve into the metaphysical, lets just leave that idea alone.

I dont know, I guess I put out too any ideas in the beginning. I usually argue with non-INTP's. In fact I don't think I've ever met another INTP before now.

[KoDeN]

Wouldnt a universe with exact polarity cancel itself out? If both sides are exactly opposite and of the exact same power, nothing would ever happen.

[jimkopelli]

Almaviva... Good show.
I don't think the universe is polarized... maybe more like a lumpy uneven gray, with light spots and dark spots.

[Aryan]

I exist
We exist
I floccinaucinihilipilificate ( this is actually a word)
We floccinaucinihilipilificate
Questions and answers ?
The ones that dont have an answer makes us anxious.
This is called metaphysical anxiety

There are many things we cannot ever know

[Mysticforce]

It is theoretically possible that I exist.
It is theoretically possible that we exist.
Objectivity cannot be perceived.
All entities are therefore subjective.
As a result, logic is not definite.
Metaphysics is thus an excuse to rationalise the subjective concept of God.
Faith is the easiest delusion.
I know where my towel is.

[jimkopelli]

Faith is the easiest delusion.

That's a good one... believe what they say because it's easier than coming to grips with something else...



I know where my towel is.
Good for you. I know where mine is too...

[Johnny]

It is theoretically possible that I exist.
It is theoretically possible that we exist.
Objectivity cannot be perceived.
All entities are therefore subjective.
As a result, logic is not definite.
Metaphysics is thus an excuse to rationalise the subjective concept of God.
Faith is the easiest delusion.
I know where my towel is.You may know where your towel is, but that doesn't have anything to do with whether the towel is really where you know it to be. What does your conclusion intend to communicate here?

[Mysticforce]

My conclusion, as jimkopelli seems to have guessed, is a joke. When the sum total of one's personal beliefs end with the statement "Faith is the easiest delusion", you cannot progress any further with something serious. If you want a more logical conclusion I would go with "Theoretical existence is absurd".

[Almaviva]

These are some of my views in point form. Basically things that I accept without proof, because proof (or disproof) is impossible.

- I exist.
- There are things outside my perception that exist. (So I reject solipsism and nihilism "just because").
- I am conscious, and consciousness exists.
- Consciousness derives from physical phenomena. E.g. somewhere between the process of a sperm fertilizing an egg and becoming a normal adult, consciousness arises.
- Corrolary: I am not the only conscious thing in the universe. Also, there is no devine sort of intervention necessary for it. Also, it ends at death. And it can be interrupted, say during parts of sleep. Also it can be affected, say when you cut the connecting parts in the middle of the brain it behaves in some ways like there are two conscious things there.
(I can't prove any of this, but attempts to "explain" it, like religion, ideas of a "soul", "universal consciouness", etc., seem to me to just be hand waving and hocus-pocus which don't make anything more elegant, or explain anything new.)
- The universe behaves according to a set of physical laws. They curiously seem very mathematical in nature.
- This is enough to explain all the behaviour of the universe. (Of course, we could never predict its behaviour exactly, because there are things in quantum mechanics, say, that we can't "know" exactly because of limitations in what we can observe.)
- There are things we can't know, and can't prove them or disprove, but:
- If we can't find evidence one way or another, then it just doesn't matter, so we can choose to say "I don't know', or pick whichever answer we like, or but:
- Making a decision about something that can't be proved or disproved based on the material world, and then using that to explain or enforce things IN the material world is just plain silly at best.
- It's a basic human right, in my opinion, not to be subject to other people's whims when there is no reason for the whims in the material world. This is the very essense of "freedom".

[Vylence]

Nothing just is, everything else isn't.

Everything has a purpose, just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it doesn't have one. Even sitting/resting can be a purpose.

I don't see the the universe as yin and yang, but 1s and 0s. The ones are there because they have a purpose, and the zeros are an illusion. All zeros are created in the human mind so that we may more easily recognize the ones. Dark, chaos, and wrong would be zeros. Light, order, and right would be ones.

[jimkopelli]

-Anything is possible.
-Many things that are possible are also exceedingly unlikely, to the point where they can be safely ignored.
-The world would be a better place if people minded their own damn business instead of trying to mess with other people because they're "wrong".
-Everything can be boiled down to math. Sociology is biology plus psychology plus math, psychology is biology plus math, easy on the math, biology is chemistry plus physics plus math, chemistry is physics plus math, and physics is math applied to matter and energy. That doesn't mean we have any signifigant portion of the answers... we've just been naming variables so far.
-The arts do not fall under the sciences.
-There are good people, and there are bad people. Part of this depends on your point of view, and which side you're on.
-Just because you're a majority doesn't mean you're right.
-There are many shades of gray. If something looks black or white, look at it in a different light.
-Sometimes, things just are the way are because that's how they are. No further explanaiton needed.
-Most rules are there for a reason... the reason could be so that you think before you break them.
-Getting caught is a form of natural selection.


More as I think of them...