I am Presidentially frustrated!

[Groty]

I have attempted to discuss political view points with people for years. The Election has reminded me of my frustration. I have NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, (got the emphasis?) encountered a person that can logically argue their political viewpoint. Regardless of their viewpoint.

Unfortunately, 99% of the people I discuss politics with are overly emotional. They have closed the doors to discussion. They always seem to be fearful of something.

How do you deal with this? I find it it very frustrating.

[Vagabond]

How do you deal with this?
Easy. I don't discuss politics.

[songbird36]

I agree with you actually Groty.

But I'm wondering, can "Politics" be objectively argued in any sense of that word?

Politics is about as subjective as whether you enjoy tomatoes in your sandwiches or not.

So isn't it inherently a lose/lose argument?

[SheepDog]

It's a lies/lose argument.

[int]

Most people don't operate on logic, so find another way to deal with 'em.

I try to be a republican, then roll with whatever they like to here. Then I tell them why it's bs.

I've got an ESTJ buddy that was so convinced I was a Bush fan, from a libertarian pov. Hooked, lined, and sunk that one. I'll be surpried if he talks to me again. :D :mellow:

:mellow:

[songbird36]

Well I've heard that voting in the US is never on issues (it's on emotions, and arguably JB is better looking than JK).

Add to that voting on a working day, and you probably get all the unemployed low IQ bums turning out in force to vote for cheaper pizzas?

[PsiKik]

I have attempted to discuss political view points with people for years. The Election has reminded me of my frustration. I have NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, (got the emphasis?) encountered a person that can logically argue their political viewpoint. Regardless of their viewpoint.

So true. I would also add religion as something people cannot discuss objectively.
I gave up trying to have discussions about these subjects.

[Groty]

Add to that voting on a working day, and you probably get all the unemployed low IQ bums turning out in force to vote for cheaper pizzas?

Good point. Why isn't Election day a national holiday?

[Werdna]

Add to that voting on a working day, and you probably get all the unemployed low IQ bums turning out in force to vote for cheaper pizzas?

Good point. Why isn't Election day a national holiday?Most of europe votes on sundays. They didn't want to do that in the US because too many christians thought it was wrong to work or travel then. According to a swedish newspaper anyway, it might be bs.

[songbird36]

I'm pretty depressed right now.


(oops that was the INTP theme wasn't it).


Where the hell were all you Americans when it counted?

[Hunter]

I'm pretty depressed right now.


(oops that was the INTP theme wasn't it).


Where the hell were all you Americans when it counted?

Americans were busy selling their freedom for a false sense of security, didn't you hear? I, personally, no longer have any faith in the intelligence of the American people or the integrity of politicians. Not that I had much of either to begin with.

[file cabinet]

who wants to get together and overthrow the government?

[booyalab]

Well I've heard that voting in the US is never on issues (it's on emotions, and arguably JB is better looking than JK).

Add to that voting on a working day, and you probably get all the unemployed low IQ bums turning out in force to vote for cheaper pizzas?

Um....no one has an excuse not to vote. Employers are required by law to allow all of their employers to get paid leave to vote, if they would otherwise not be able to because of work. Also, IQ really has nothing to do with your assertion. Please don't jump to conclusions about something when you're obviously not familiar with it.


Where the hell were all you Americans when it counted?

There was a record turn-out this election. In my state, there was a 79% voter turn-out. In polls all over the country people were waiting in 5-7 hour lines.

As for the people who didn't vote, if the current political situation isn't making them care enough to educate themselves about it in order to make a choice. It's probably for the best they stayed home.

[file cabinet]

my thoughts on the high voter turn out and why it is such a close race.
- a lot of organizations targeting 18-20something realized voting might be a good idea, along with this, films such as farhenheit 9/11 and general more poltiical discussions in the popular media (mainly kerry voters?)
- older people who were concerned with the war voted for bush to continue the 'war on terror' with the same president... sympathy vote?

yeah... I had other thoughts but I forgot them all. I'm not usually good at explaining myself.
I find it interesting that historians or whomever they are already saying Bush is probably one of the worst presidents(someone have a source to support this, I don't, just something I heard) the US has had in awhile .. so he is getting re-elected... oh, the irony kills me.

[Groty]

who wants to get together and overthrow the government?

Watch out! Thats un-Patriotic! Thought Police are watching!

You just flagged this board!

[SheepDog]

Bush (and the republicans) are better at delivering simple, sound-byte type messages. The Kerry messages were more subtle and complex.

SJs and SPs are 75% of the population, and are more inclined to appreciate the simpler, rather than the subtle, messages.

[Witticism]

The Thought Police are ALWAYS watching...

I can't discuss politics with everyone because they accept the mainstream thought-process, ie:
"The war is bad because it... is."
Plus no one is interested in a thorough debate. I think that's because of how I argue things, heh.
I can't stand either of them, but I think Bush might have been the better choice because we at least KNOW his stance on things. Kerry is too ambivalent.

[booyalab]

Bush (and the republicans) are better at delivering simple, sound-byte type messages. The Kerry messages were more subtle and complex.

SJs and SPs are 75% of the population, and are more inclined to appreciate the simpler, rather than the subtle, messages.

I know many of the 'simpler' people construed Kerry's "complexity" for flip-flopping when it wasnt always deserved. But I'm quite capable of understanding subtlety and complexity and I still saw a lot of problems with Kerry, too much to vote for him. On Republican's part, I know a lot of people voted for Kerry simply because he's more eloquent. Certainly not a clear indicator of intelligence or strength of leadership in and of itself. Also, history has shown that IQ (which i imagine is higher for kerry) is not closely tied to how successful a president is.

[SheepDog]

No doubt, booyalab. My point was just one of many observations. I don't have a favorable opinion of either of the two. I just think the GOP is doing a better job of sending simple messages, suitable for sound-bytes. It obfuscates Truth, but when has that mattered in politics, anyway?

Subtlety is lost on the masses.

[file cabinet]

The Thought Police are ALWAYS watching...

I can't discuss politics with everyone because they accept the mainstream thought-process, ie:
"The war is bad because it... is."
Plus no one is interested in a thorough debate. I think that's because of how I argue things, heh.
I can't stand either of them, but I think Bush might have been the better choice because we at least KNOW his stance on things. Kerry is too ambivalent.

The two major parties are clones of eachother. I think we lose either way.
They're like twins but grow up making slightly different decisions.

[Sam172]

I must say I get overly emotive when discussing politics....but then again I do slag off every single party we have here, then pimp out the Green Party :)

As you can probably guess, that doesn't get me too many good marks...

If I were an American though I would get angry and emotive because there are no credible parties to my knowledge.....they are all quite dumb....especially the 2 main ones.
I expect i'll be ranted at for this ;p

[Witticism]

I don't think anyone here would disagree with you slagging off the American parties, Sam.

[booyalab]

No doubt, booyalab. My point was just one of many observations. I don't have a favorable opinion of either of the two. I just think the GOP is doing a better job of sending simple messages, suitable for sound-bytes. It obfuscates Truth, but when has that mattered in politics, anyway?

Subtlety is lost on the masses.

Truth and subtlety are not mutually inclusive. (<---as evidenced by this very statement)

[SheepDog]

Truth and subtlety are not mutually inclusive.
Agreed.

Now we just have to figure out how to explain that to the rest of the population. Remember to use small words.

[booyalab]

my statement wasn't subtle, at first you seemed to be confusing subtlety with truth...now you seem to be confusing a pretentious vernacular with subtlety

[SheepDog]

I'm saying that just because you and I get the differences, not everyone else does. Are you reading my comments as indicating otherwise, or are you saying that you disagree, and think that most people DO see the differences?

[booyalab]

I'm saying that just because you and I get the differences, not everyone else does. Are you reading my comments as indicating otherwise, or are you saying that you disagree, and think that most people DO see the differences?

I think I stayed up too late last night watching the election coverage....lol

[SheepDog]

For the record, I think this conversation would be more clear if it were face-to-face instead of trying to type in a little box. I think this forum, ironically, doesn't always suit the thinking style of INTP's. It's certainly a welcome place for me, but I think the non-verbal content is diluted in this form of communication.

[Witticism]

I find that in IM conversations. Inflections, tone of voice, and such are generally important to me, so I end up misinterpreting a lot.

[SheepDog]

And I will admit that I have a sometimes annoying habit of saying things that are simultaneously literal and ironic at the same time. I like letting the ambiguity of things linger. It's a compulsion, really.

Peace.

[booyalab]

I think I was reading your comments as indicating something else....

[booyalab]

And I will admit that I have a sometimes annoying habit of saying things that are simultaneously literal and ironic at the same time. I like letting the ambiguity of things linger. It's a compulsion, really.

Peace.

I do this too....I'm always having to clarify myself to people on here, more than I thought would be necessary..it sucks.

[SheepDog]

I find that in IM conversations. Inflections, tone of voice, and such are generally important to me, so I end up misinterpreting a lot.
Definitely, and also being misunderstood myself. I like being non-literal, so the idea of adding emoticons all the time seems very counter to my style of communication.

[edit: typo]

[booyalab]

in IM conversations I sometimes put a word in caps when I'm trying to emphasize it and people assume I'm yelling at them...

[Witticism]

That's exactly what happens to me. And I can't stand emoticons because they're used so liberally by omfg lol n00bz!!

[booyalab]

That's exactly what happens to me. And I can't stand emoticons because they're used so liberally by omfg lol n00bz!!

:huh: :( :angry: :rant:

[booyalab]

I try to boycott emoticons on msn, it has served me well. Except sometimes I like to formulate little visual stories out of them...but only when I'm truly bored

[Sam172]

I don't think anyone here would disagree with you slagging off the American parties, Sam.

Ahhh, but the problem I get is that parties would not get in power if they did not represent what at least a lot of the country wants. Therefore a dumb party = at least a 40% dumb country. Which leads me to being abused :p

[SheepDog]

Back to the Truth/subtlety thing, would it be more or less clear if I said that Truth is something that exists beyond lingustic description, subtle or otherwise?

I'm thinking now that subtlety wasn't really the word I meant to use in describing the political dialog.

[SheepDog]

I don't think anyone here would disagree with you slagging off the American parties, Sam.

Ahhh, but the problem I get is that parties would not get in power if they did not represent what at least a lot of the country wants. Therefore a dumb party = at least a 40% dumb country. Which leads me to being abused :p
I think people want to live a fairy tale, and that's what the parties are selling.

[booyalab]

Back to the Truth/subtlety thing, would it be more or less clear if I said that Truth is something that exists beyond lingustic description, subtle or otherwise?

It would be more clear, and that's what I was trying to say. That's what I meant by truth and subtlety not being mutually inclusive. So truth can be subtle, but it might also be straightforward. "The word computer has 8 letters"

[booyalab]

I think we do both agree that people might choose what they consider to be truth by the manner in which it's stated, depending on their personality.

[SheepDog]

I think we do both agree that people might choose what they consider to be truth by the manner in which it's stated, depending on their personality.
Now I can be literal and say, yes, we would agree. B)

[Nighthawk]

I have attempted to discuss political view points with people for years. The Election has reminded me of my frustration. I have NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, (got the emphasis?) encountered a person that can logically argue their political viewpoint. Regardless of their viewpoint.

Unfortunately, 99% of the people I discuss politics with are overly emotional. They have closed the doors to discussion. They always seem to be fearful of something.

How do you deal with this? I find it it very frustrating.

Then gradually I began to intellectually reject some of the delusionally influenced lines of thinking which had been characteristic of my orientation. This began, most recognizably, with the rejection of politically-oriented thinking as essentially a hopeless waste of intellectual effort.
- John Nash

[INTrPosr]

.... I'm wondering, can "Politics" be objectively argued in any sense of that word? Politics is about as subjective as whether you enjoy tomatoes in your sandwiches or not. So isn't it inherently a lose/lose argument?

Agreed...... discussing political views is liking discussing religion or personal philosophy, to me. I don't do it.

[Nighthawk]

The two major parties are clones of eachother. I think we lose either way.
They're like twins but grow up making slightly different decisions.

Hear, hear. The only real choice you have is who is going to bend you over for the next 4 years.

[PsiKik]

The two major parties are clones of eachother. I think we lose either way.
They're like twins but grow up making slightly different decisions.

Hear, hear. The only real choice you have is who is going to bend you over for the next 4 years.

I disagree with the idea that the two parties are essentially the same.
The Bush administration has an extreme right wing agenda, unlike any previous administration. Al Gore would not have gutted the treasury or
gone to war with Iraq.

[Nighthawk]

The two major parties are clones of eachother. I think we lose either way.
They're like twins but grow up making slightly different decisions.

Hear, hear. The only real choice you have is who is going to bend you over for the next 4 years.

I disagree with the idea that the two parties are essentially the same.
The Bush administration has an extreme right wing agenda, unlike any previous administration. Al Gore would not have gutted the treasury or
gone to war with Iraq.

Granted. From my personal perspective however, things have grown steadily more expensive, taxes have grown steadily higher, the deficit has grown, and bureaucracy has increased, services have gone down, healthcare has worsened, and life has become more of a pain in the ass over the last 25 years of my adult life ... no matter which party was in power, and no matter who was president. To me, the politicians are all the same liars and opportunists. They just screw you in different ways ... but the end result is that you are still screwed.

I don't like Bush or Kerry ... and I haven't found a politician I can trust or in whom I have confidence. Hell of a choice this election ... dumb and dumber.

[candela]

You guys seem to forget that both candidates sucked.

[Lucas]

The two major parties are clones of eachother. I think we lose either way.
They're like twins but grow up making slightly different decisions.

Hear, hear. The only real choice you have is who is going to bend you over for the next 4 years.

I disagree with the idea that the two parties are essentially the same.


I agree. Kerry and Bush represent two very different worldviews. They are not the same. The differences between them are enormous.

[Claverhouse]

Just aspects of the same ineffable power.


Claverhouse :ph34r:

[SheepDog]

I agree. Kerry and Bush represent two very different worldviews. They are not the same. The differences between them are enormous.
The similarities are also enormous. They talk about all these "issues" to make the differences seem greater, but they're cut from the same mold.

[Lucas]

but they're cut from the same mold.

Aren't we all?

[Claverhouse]

Speak for yourself.

[ Coldly ]



Claverhouse :ph34r: