INTJ or INTP?

[Utopmk]

An article that compares the similarites, and differences between the types.
http://www.socionics.com/advan/intjorintp.htm

[nobarcode]

For INTJs their introverted sensing is their nightmare. Introverted sensing is mainly about the body, its functions, sensory perceptions etc. The only way they can balance that cone is for them to be physically healthy and if this is not that important to you, you are most probably not INTJ. INTPs are also trying to balance this cone on its head when it comes to introverted feeling. Introverted feeling is love, affection, morality etc. It is important for an INTP to be involved with someone, to have an object of affection, to like people. If this doesn’t concern you, you are probably a type other than INTP.


That is the only point that establishes a "distinction" for me as an INTP and only by a very small margin (I mean minute). As I often test as "J", the rest of the article more or less described me rather than point out any differences.

[file cabinet]

lately I've been troubled over how much of an INTP+J I am.. the reason is because I think both of my parents are INTJ's which would suggest that maybe I might be one as well. But I believe I have more P then J.. although I do tend to be reliable and organized.. I do not take care of my body even though I think about it sometimes.. yeah.

[Utopmk]

file cabinet
PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 11:10 am Post subject:
lately I've been troubled over how much of an INTP+J I am.. the reason is because I think both of my parents are INTJ's which would suggest that maybe I might be one as well. But I believe I have more P then J.. although I do tend to be reliable and organized.. I do not take care of my body even though I think about it sometimes.. yeah.

I have an obsession with taking care of my body.
:whistle:

[file cabinet]

I stopped drinking soda since it made my teeth feel weird

[paladinoflunaria]

I don't think that this site is accurate. They swapped the functions- INTPs have Ti, Ne, Si, Fe and INTJs have Ni, Te, Fi, Se. This site has it the other way around. Because none of us is completely introverted, intuitive, thinking, or perceiveing, we will, of course, find that we are somewhat defined by other personality types, and I did indeed find some matches from both. Because they have the two types analyzed as the other, I don't think that the credibility is good enough.

[paladinoflunaria]

I shall read then. Their description of INTP/INTJ was kind of silly, though, talking about physical attributes.

Edit: I'd say Paul James got the INTP profile with more accuracy.

[paladinoflunaria]

The fallacy reads as following: "Extrovert types in Socionics and MBTI are the same, however Introvert types differ on J/P!". For example, Socionics INTJ is MBTI INTP and vice versa.


See, I was right. They switched them. B)

[paladinoflunaria]

Where's the link?

[paladinoflunaria]

I'm reading socionics, but one thing keeps coming to mind: The P in INTP means that the perceiving function of the primary axis is extraverted. Since there is an I in INTP, the introverted function takes dominance. Therefore, INTP has dominant Ti and auxiliary Ne. Makes sense to me, but I'll keep reading.

It's been 48 hours since I last slept so that would probably help.

[paladinoflunaria]

According to the Introverted complexity 47, I'm still an INTP.

Edit: I'm an INTJ in Socionics and an INTP in MBTI, so I have the same functions.

[paladinoflunaria]

I will post my similarities and differences with the descriptions of INTJ/INTP tomorrow. I'm gonna get some sleep for now.

[Miss Padfoot]

I'll post mine now, since I'm far from asleep.

Socionics INTP first:

INTPs often have a characteristic round-shouldered posture. Their necks are often not as well proportioned as other types and their heads seem to strain forwards. Their eyes have a sorrowful look about them as if they are about to be victimised in some way. Their lips are usually not very expressive or defined. Their noses are somewhat aquiline in shape which combined with often flattened cheekbones giving the false impression that their noses are large.

During conversation INTPs may project their lower lips forward. INTPs often show poor control of their lower jaw, allowing them to hang down. INTPs normal facial expressions usually reflect wisdom and great life experience or sadness and victimisation. Although INTPs are introverts, some of them may behave in a very extroverted manner. Okay, this part is just stupid. I don't believe for an instant that people of a certain personality type look the same way.


INTPs with more developed aesthetic taste are neat and tidy. They look after their clothes which they know well how to compose and combine.Well, either I don't have developed aesthetic taste or I'm not an INTP. I'm messy as heck.


When they interact with others they are softly spoken and unobtrusive, leaving others the impression that they are intelligent and educated. When asking someone for something, they usually do it in such a way as to rarely be denied.At my best, yes. Especially with someone I don't know well. However, when I'm dealing with an authority figure who's also my friend (and I know a lot), but who's using his or her authority against me, I get mad.


INTPs with less developed aesthetic taste usually look like they are not bothered about their appearance. Their clothes are often old and worn and their footwear may be in a bad condition.Well, no. But that may be because my J mother periodically says, "You need new clothes, Michelle," and drags me to the mall.
When interacting with others they may be very active, pushy and sometimes even aggressive. They often do not obey the norms of politeness and may sometime be rough and vulgar, however this behaviour usually does not last a long time.No. That sounds more like an SP, hyperactive-type ADHD person to me.


When INTPs speak publicly they habitually adopt a slow, monotone speech pattern. This may have a sleep inducing hypnotic effect on their audience.No. I'm too self-conscious in front of a crowd for that. I hate public speaking, anyway.


INTPs are good at noticing contradictions in theories or opinions and can focus others attention to this. They are able to predict short term forthcoming events in both visual and associative forms. Through observation and their own experiences INTPs can create a precise model of others behaviour allowing INTPs to predict peoples next moves. They often amaze and interest people with this quality.True. But that also applies to the INTJs I know.


INTPs are very sceptical to others who are undertaking new beginnings. They are able to pour cold water on others burning enthusiasm. They try to keep others from being passionate as they consider strong emotions to be harmful.Well, that's true. Except that I'm not harsh about raining on people's parades. I sort of say quietly, "Well, I think you might want to consider this..."


INTPs also look after their health and can be very captious in these matters. For example, they may wash their hands more often than others do. They pay a lot attention to hygiene and sanitation.No. I'm not dirty and gross, but hygiene was very much a learned skill for me. I still consider it a pain.


INTPs are often active in business and commercial matters. They have good abilities to quickly calculate profit. Usually they are relaxed and only undertake projects that show considerable return and profit. They are not afraid to run big businesses.See, that's where Socionics is wrong. They're not even close. The ideal business executive is an ENTJ, but I think an INTJ might be next. That's because of their strong EXTRAVERTED THINKING FUNCTION.


Usually INTPs are very economical. They do not like to make presents or lend money to others. Because of this quality they usually try to appear poorer than they actually are. However when it comes to spending money on themselves, they can be very generous.I wouldn't know. I've never had much money to speak of. I usually spend money in big chunks - I buy a few big things for myself rather than a lot of small things. I don't know what that says about me.


INTPs usually work slowly, paying a lot of attention to detail.Me? Details? You've gotta be kidding.


In their activities they show a strict logic, that can sometimes become very pedantic and scrupulous.Sorry, no. Clearly these people have never seen me practice the piano. It's sporadic, but it works.


INTPs may check that all home appliances are off many times before leaving.Nope. I'm very bad about that stuff, actually. I just started driving, so I have an excuse, but I actually got out of the car today without turning it off. If my dad hadn't noticed it would have just sat in the driveway eating gas.

INTJ now.

INTJs have a characteristic ascetic face. There are two reason for this. Firstly the facial structure itself is often reminiscent of ancient portraits because of its angularity and composition of the features, like cheekbone and eyebrow arcs. Secondly their facial expression is often accepted as emotionless and severe. Their face is usually pale or bloodless. Males often have a short haircut. In many cases INTJs are slim. Their stomach is usually placed ahead of the chest giving them their characteristic posture.See comment regarding INTPs, physical appearance, and general stupidity of paragraphs like this.


Their gait is somewhat unsure, wavering slightly. Sometimes it seems like they are not sure where they are going. This becomes more obvious in moments of excitement.I've been told that I always look sort of lost, that I walk slowly with my head in the clouds.


Their clothes are not usually very striking. INTJs do not like to attract excessive attention to themselves and most of the time they stick to simple clothes, often wearing the same style and composition for a long time.Fairly true. I wear mostly solid colors, pairing a neutral top with a brightly colored bottom or vice versa.


INTJs behave in a very self-restrained manner with strangers, never showing initiative first and always maintaining a long psychological distance.You know, I'm not quite sure what to say to this. Around teenagers I don't know well, I tend to be pretty non-responsive. I find most teenagers boring. Adults, on the other hand, can be fascinating. If I'm stuck at a dinner party that my parents dragged me along to, I just do the real-life equivalent of lurking on forums: float around silently and listen to snippets of conversations, observe, and think about it.


Their speech is very clear and logical and they always follow a logical progression. They also have a tendency to emphasise key words.Hmm. That sounds more like my mother (MBTI XNTJ) than me.


When defending their concepts and ideas during a confrontation their logic can become solid and absolute. They cut out all irrelevant details that may cloud the argument.Solid, yes. But I have a problem omitting details that may prove the other person right. I think it's intellectually irresponsible not to be as objective as possible. If there is data that causes my argument to fall apart, and I know about it, then I wouldn't be arguing the logically unsound point in the first place.


Although the first impression of INTJs is that they are emotionless, when they become inspired during conversation an emotionality previously unseen begins to emerge. Their eyes start flashing with a fanatic light and their passion increases as the conversation progresses.Certainly true. Anyone can attest to this trait in me.


However, they still try to maintain their self-control. INTJs sustain conversations only if they find them interesting. They prefer to keep silent rather than give an opinion on a subject to which they are indifferent.Also very true. I do much more listening than talking, and if I can't find anything to say that's insightful, relevant and logically airtight, I say nothing.


INTJs always give others a chance to say what they need to say. They consider that everyone has got talents and they try at least not to interfere. They do not refuse any proposals immediately, preferring to examine them first.You know, that's true as well. I tend to consider everything and everyone based on their own merits.


INTJs are very reserved and usually do not take the initiative in talking about their interests and private life. This can lead others to think that they have no private life at all.Well, I don't have much of a private life. And I do ask others about their interests (not their private lives), but only to the extent where their interests match mine. I like to have conversations about my favorite books, movies, and other topics that interest me. If I see a hint that someone may share an interest, I'll usually say "You like (insert movie here)?" or "Have you ever read any books by (insert author's name here)?"


INTJs have a very characteristic tendency to independence and can only accept a whole freedom. In work matters they combine their need for freedom with a feeling of responsibility.Well, I'm not too good with responsibility. I tend to get too caught up in my own endeavors to fulfill the responsibilities that others impose on me. But I love independence and freedom.


INTJs are not very demanding. They are often indifferent to food and its presentation. It can be simple but must be fresh. When involved in something interesting they can completely forget that they need to eat. In everyday matters INTJs are modest and are happy to have a minimum degree of comfort.That is true. If it wasn't for my parents I'd probably never eat or sleep. This is in marked contrast to the INTP description, which involves stingy entrepreneurs.


INTJs usually have an interest that stays with them for a long time and are absolutely indifferent to what others say about it.Ding! That's the piano. It's one of the few things that I don't get bored with.


They never endorse their position in life. INTJs live in a world of their own conception. They simply ignore rules, concepts and directives that do not suit them. Most people do not understand INTJs and try to keep away from them.Well, I don't ignore concepts just because they don't "suit" me; that sounds like an E_FJ's inferior Ti function - only supporting the T-based conclusions that don't conflict with their F-defined preferences. But I doubt that's what the Socionics people meant. I bet they meant that INTJs ignore rules that interfere with their independence or that they find irrational. That paragraph describes me perfectly.


So. The INTP description got worse and worse as it went along. The INTJ one clicked much more.
Socionics still confuses me, though. I'm going to have to give this more thought.

[Utopmk]

Their eyes have a sorrowful look about them as if they are about to be victimised in some way.

I think this part is true. If you don't belive me take a look at the celebrities listed as INTP there, and then take a look in the mirror, its frightening.

[SensEye]

I concur with your analysis Miss Padfoot. Socionics description of INTP just doesn't work. Neat and tidy? Aggressive and pushy? I've never seen those attributes in any other INTP description and they certainly don't fit me.

The long INTP description from the old forum is much better (that needs to be brought over here, BTW). When I read certain parts of that I was thinking "yes, exactly" and I'm not near as well defined an INTP (borderline INTJ) as some of you guys here.

[Vagabond]

Socionics explain that as far as introverted types are concerned, you should flip the P/J feature. Socionics INTj = MBTI INTP and the opposite. That is why they don't capitalise the last of the four letters, to avoid confusion. That is what they say on that site, however reading Hush's thread sort of shook this idea for me... and I am hardly the one to say which profile of the two I relate to as valid "testimony", since I am hardly a clearly cut INTP or INTJ anyways...

[paladinoflunaria]

My similarities/differences are in the People and Psychology section, on the MBTI vs Socionics thread.

I think socionics is a bit off. I'd go with the j/p system from MBTI: j/p indicates whether the judging or the perceiving function on the primary axis is extroverted. Some of you agree that the socionics definition doesn't agree with you, and I'm sure that you're still Ps and not Js. The descriptions on socionics are vague; however, the functions and their order still don't agree with me. Socionics says that INTPs should be Ni-Te-Fi-Se, but I am definitely Ti-Ne-Si-Fe (Paul James' essay describes me extremely well) and I am definitely a P.

[Johnny]

I scored INTP on the socionics web's online test, not INTJ. Also, when one reads the type descriptions for Socionics, they seem to be exactly the type descriptions MBTI offers. That makes sense to me. (Edit: I'm talking about the description of, say, the Introvert, not INTP.) Now, as to which type is my biggest strength (by virtue of pointing inward rather than the world, since I prefer introversion) isn't really that much of a big deal to me. I came to terms with my intution a long time ago...as all introverted thinkers must do at some point in order to grow.

[paladinoflunaria]

I tested as an INTP on the Socionics test. I also tested as having a Ti-Ne-Si-Fe combination on the MMDI, which is less fallible test as it looks for functions rather than I vs E, etc. Granted I had a high Ni (not as high as Ne, but high) score, I still have the MBTI INTP functions, but I also test as a Socionics INTP. That's what these two tests are about anyway. Finding your function combination is important, because you want to go with your dominant function over your auxiliary, etc. Something's up with one of those tests. The logic above says so. Socionics presented a good idea (confusion of functions), but it has made the mistake it was warning about. It seems I could do fairly well as an INTJ, but better as an INTP (as per MBTI).

[Miss Padfoot]

On the Socionics test, something extremely interesting happened.

It said that on the J/P scale, my conscious preference was for P, but my unconscious preference was for J. What in the world does that mean? It seems to me that Socionics, on the rest of the site at least, is trying to tell MBTI INTPs, "You may think you've got Ti dominant, but you really have Ni dominant, even if you don't know it." Now this??

And it also asked me, "Do you more often find yourself struggling to maintain the balance between: (a) your emotional self and your intellectual self, or (b) your physical self or spiritual self?" I answered A, but really I didn't quite understand the question, and I don't think it applies to me that much anyway. I don't care much for my physical self, and I'm an atheist so that rules out the spiritual part. I don't like my emotional self too much. I prefer to let my intellectual self keep the emotional self at bay.

Anyway, what does the conscious/unconscious thing mean? I don't understand it at all, and I haven't seen anything about it on the Socionics site.

[sme_bro]

on the myers briggs test my mate scored intj, but the j was a low percentage.
Its interesting that the article says that intjs and intps look alike because we really do, people always telling us we look like brothers and teachers calling us by the others name.
But i disagree with some of that

"INTPs being highly religious and spiritual people. It is also their area of confidence and conservatism and they will not welcome anything that could disturb that internal wholeness. "

Im not, nor have i ever been highly religious, and i would have thought that any intp would welcome some constructive debate-especially in the area of religion.
I do explore spirituality but im no devout follower, i have my own beliefs and i dont need to change myself to suit them.

"INTP to be involved with someone, to have an object of affection, to like people. If this doesn’t concern you, you are probably a type other than INTP."

Is that true for anyone here? I cant speak because i do have an 'object' of affection but im sure that if i were to lose it i would probably continue life as i did before.

Still as much as the scionics site interests me, the first time i came across it i ended up with a very confusing internal monologue for the rest of the night...The site gives the impression that the types are very set in stone and that no matter what, your relations with people will be pre-determined based on your types.
The scary thing is i think it could be right, esfjs at my school-i have never ever clicked with them. But its weird to know that its not the fact they are complete dickheads that causes this. Its because our types clash.

Also the pages on celebrity types, and how to tell the type by appearance alone...its almost as if you could just interchange people in your life with people of the same type and barely notice the difference.
As interesting as it is it still seems to take alot of fun out of human relations. Imagine a world where we walked around with type nametags, you would only have to know the type to know if you will get along...and considering we are outnumbered but esfjs we would probably have a crappy time.

[paladinoflunaria]

Hush wrote:

(most of which is in Russian language.)

And it was developed by an Ethiopian ENTP. ;)

[s]

One of my best friends is an INTJ and our primary difference is synthesis vs. analysis. Also, J's want to come to a conclusion and move on; P's like to keep the options open, but rarely make permanent mistakes.

[Arioch]

I'll post mine now, since I'm far from asleep.

Socionics INTP first:

INTPs often have a characteristic round-shouldered posture. Their necks are often not as well proportioned as other types and their heads seem to strain forwards. Their eyes have a sorrowful look about them as if they are about to be victimised in some way. Their lips are usually not very expressive or defined. Their noses are somewhat aquiline in shape which combined with often flattened cheekbones giving the false impression that their noses are large.

During conversation INTPs may project their lower lips forward. INTPs often show poor control of their lower jaw, allowing them to hang down. INTPs normal facial expressions usually reflect wisdom and great life experience or sadness and victimisation. Although INTPs are introverts, some of them may behave in a very extroverted manner. Okay, this part is just stupid. I don't believe for an instant that people of a certain personality type look the same way.


INTPs with more developed aesthetic taste are neat and tidy. They look after their clothes which they know well how to compose and combine.Well, either I don't have developed aesthetic taste or I'm not an INTP. I'm messy as heck.

{snip}

So. The INTP description got worse and worse as it went along. The INTJ one clicked much more.
Socionics still confuses me, though. I'm going to have to give this more thought.

This was actually the INTJ profiles.

In socionics introverts that are J are actually P and P's are actually J's

[Johnny]

...J's want to come to a conclusion and move on; P's like to keep the options open, but rarely make permanent mistakes.

This is an interesting way of putting the matter. From a company perspective, it's all about who has the greatest chance of driving a project (regardless of its attributes) to completion.

There are always mistakes, and none of them are permanent when you can see the difference between "if" and "is". Perceivers, to me, are more likely to blur the line between "if" and "is" than a Judger - having a rational function dominating his/her personality preference rather than an irrational function as Jung describes them - and a lot of unnecessary "let's-speculate-and-plan-for-those-ridiculous-consequences-in-advance" baggage gets attached to a job that could have gotten done weeks ago. :sombrero:

[s]

...J's want to come to a conclusion and move on; P's like to keep the options open, but rarely make permanent mistakes.

This is an interesting way of putting the matter. From a company perspective, it's all about who has the greatest chance of driving a project (regardless of its attributes) to completion.

There are always mistakes, and none of them are permanent when you can see the difference between "if" and "is". Perceivers, to me, are more likely to blur the line between "if" and "is" than a Judger - having a rational function dominating his/her personality preference rather than an irrational function as Jung describes them - and a lot of unnecessary "let's-speculate-and-plan-for-those-ridiculous-consequences-in-advance" baggage gets attached to a job that could have gotten done weeks ago. :sombrero:

I would like to add:

ENTJ and INTJ's are far better and more comfortable at making decisions and NTJ's appear to be quite the stereotypical rational types. INTP's can appear to more flaky and spontaneous, but that is just the price of complexity of thought. J's (namely SFJ's) think inside the box, go down with their ships, and don't appear to "flip flop". Sound familiar?


Happy to be a P and not a J,

[Johnny]

INTP's can appear to more flaky and spontaneous, but that is just the price of complexity of thought. J's (namely SFJ's) think inside the box, go down with their ships, and don't appear to "flip flop".

Yes, the complexity of thought is certainly an issue. So is the seduction and habit of thought, and fear of the unknown.

Just because P's are too caught up in their thoughts to bother distinguishing the ship from the water, it doesn't exempt a P from drowning.

Wishing I could go to work in my PJ's,

[s]

INTP's can appear to more flaky and spontaneous, but that is just the price of complexity of thought. J's (namely SFJ's) think inside the box, go down with their ships, and don't appear to "flip flop".

Yes, the complexity of thought is certainly an issue. So is the seduction and habit of thought, and fear of the unknown.

Just because P's are too caught up in their thoughts to bother distinguishing the ship from the water, it doesn't exempt a P from drowning.

Wishing I could go to work in my PJ's,

True.

It is 3:48pm and I am still in my PJs... ahhhhhh.... I better do something outside of my house like go work out and get coffee. What do you do for a living?

[Misty_Kye]

I’m not even sure where to begin with this. Most of it seems just plain wrong, or maybe I just don’t know what an INTP is.

1st & 2nd paragraphs: I don’t agree with any of this. A lot of folks do tell me to “smile, be happy” or words to that affect. They seem to think that I am sad or angry a lot. Actually when I’m deep in thought I furrow my eyebrows, squint a bit, get a detached look in my eyes, and I may even “project (my) lower lip forward”. I think a lot of folks misinterpret this as sadness, anger and possibly the victimization that this is talking about. Oh, and are there two spellings for victimization or did they spell this wrong in the article?

3rd and 4th paragraphs. Let me get this straight, you either have aesthetic taste and are well dressed, speak softly and carry a big stick or you have no aesthetic taste and are a vulgar, rude, slob. Looks like they covered both extremes here. Nice trick. Didn’t work though. I’m only “neat and tidy” with what I’m working on, but everything else is a disaster. However, I’m more concerned about my appearance then my non-INTP husband (Red shorts and a blaze orange T-shirt? I make him change.), but haven’t bought new clothes for about 10 years.

As far as my speech patterns, my “softly spoken and unobtrusive” attitude causes people to ignore me. They don’t think I’m “intelligent and educated” until something breaks, I fix it and they ask me how I did it. Now the second statement is interesting: Aggressive, pushy, rude, rough and vulgar. Wow! … Have I ever been like that? Probably. When I have been in a large crowd (>100 people) for a long period of time (>6hours) and cannot get away. At that point I no longer care about social niceties and can be a bit rude. They did mention that it didn’t last long though. Hey, no kidding. It doesn’t last long because I’m only like that when I want to LEAVE and if you don’t take me home I’ll calling a cab :P

5th paragraph.
Public Speaking: “Slow, Monotone, hypnotic”. I taught weather at Keesler AFB for 3 years and have given thousands of weather briefs over the years. I am definitely not slow. I once finished an 8 hour brief in 2 hours. I taught the important information and cut the crap. After that they changed the brief. Now it is only taught in 2 hours. <_<

Hypnotic? I walk around the room and use my hands a lot when I talk and if the dry erase markers don’t work I throw them at the trash can in the back of the room. My students are usually twisting in their chairs to follow me or dodging the markers. So I wouldn’t say I am hypnotic. I have also critiqued people who are learning to speak in public. Regardless of the personality type, most of them start out as monotone because they are nervous.

Contradictions and shortcomings: I can’t argue with that one. I sure picked out a few here.

Predicting people: Tough one. Normally I’m the most gullible person I know, but once in a while I will get a flash of insight. For the most part I cannot read people.

6th paragraph
Skeptical: Yep, I can’t help trying to offer advice. Usually in the form of “beware of …”.

Hygiene/Health: You’ve got to be kidding. I’m so caught up in my projects that usually forget that stuff. If I hadn’t set up a pattern of showering and brushing my teeth every morning I would probably forget that too. I agree with Miss Padfoot, hygiene is a learned skill and a pain. It takes me away from what I’m working on.

7th paragraph: Big business, money grubbing, and self-centered??? Big Business: NOT, I hate big business: too political and too many people. Money grubbing: I have loaned out thousands to friends/family and probably won’t ever get it back. If I expected it back I wouldn’t have loaned it out. I donate hundreds each year. I just want to make sure my $ does some good. Self-Centered: When I buy something for myself I want it to be of a good quality and durable. I do not want to be bothered by having to buy another one in a few years. So, Yea, I tend to be “very generous” and spend a lot when I do spend, but I also save for months or years to get what I want.

8th paragraph: Attention to Detail: Check appliances? Ah… No… I just don’t turn them on. I have left the car running, lights on, locked my keys in the car/house/you name it, etc…

Thanks for letting me rant :)

[s]

I am not a big fan of socionics, because the facial feature/body type bit sounds like eugenics and phrenology, plus it does not account for personal growth. I am an INTP through and through, but I have worked hard at becoming more socially adept and balanced (mentally, physically, emotionally.) I did not always, but now I look more like an ESTJ (socionics) to the untrained eye. I have to "get in character" to look, dress, and entertain like an ESTJ. As it does not come naturally, I find it exhausting and must retreat to my eccentric INTP self afterwards.

[s]

The visual identification part seems to be a major and popular argument against Socionics, which is kind of funny since the argument is against statistics and not its actual type-theory.

Who said, "There are lies, damn lies, and statistics?"

[Miss Padfoot]

Mark Twain.

[s]

I am usually unfond of stereotyping of any kind, as it has a fairly negative connotation.

My comment was in response to the ridiculous pictures portraying "typical" facial types, most (if not all) of whom were Caucasian. I believe the link between facial features and personality unconstructive, as well a collossal waste of research and resources. Average penis size (from the other thread) may even be more constructive.

[s]

Mark Twain.


Wise Man.

;)

[greenintp]

I have read everything in this thread and i still think I'm on the fence.

[Tranzors]

There should be more studies on INTP/INTJs. There are VERY little of us so that means that nothing much is known about them. If there were more of us then the world would be much more perfect btw. HAAHAHAHHAHA.

[greenintp]

I have recently concluded myself to be INTx.

I am surprised at the number of people (J's & P's) that say this is not possible. I think that's because they are not caught on the borderline. Until there is a checklist of conflicting traits between the two, I will stay up on the fence and watch the view of both sides from here. I welcome feed back from anyone who thinks they are expert at seperating the 2 preferences.


There should be more studies on INTP/INTJs. There are VERY little of us so that means that nothing much is known about them. If there were more of us then the world would be much more perfect btw. HAAHAHAHHAHA.

[atypical]

I think one of the reasons the socionics site is so confusing is that it's (possibly) poorly translated from the russian it was originally written in. Thats one of the reasons i'm learning russian at uni :nerd:

as an example of something I think's been lost in translation:
in the intp profile it mentions a distinction between those with good aesthetic taste and those without, the former being more mild and socially acceptable, the latter being pushy and aggressive. I've certainly noticed in myself that when I'm wearing somewhat "fashionable" clothes i'm much calmer and less likely to say something i'll later regret than when I'm wearing old tacky stuff. Mind you, this could just be the balancing-out effect of using my secondary function (extraverted thinking) in deciding what to wear, or the fact that society is more likely to take me seriously if i'm dressed nicely.

I've also noticed that I can tell certain types just by appearance. According to the socionics intertype theory, intp's are best suited with esfp's, which I've of course become obsessively knowlegable about, and now I can usually pick esfp's just by their face. The explanation they give is that different functions will manifest themselves in different muscle tension patterns. There is some credibility to this - not wanting to sound like anthony robbins but i've definately noticed a correlation between negative mood and bad posture, in myself at least.

Its a pitty there isn't a larger body of good literature in english on socionics, especially concerning the relationship stuff. Because when it does work, its scarily accurate.

[InsurgentAlpha]

I don't think that this site is accurate. They swapped the functions- INTPs have Ti, Ne, Si, Fe and INTJs have Ni, Te, Fi, Se. This site has it the other way around.

I was thinking the same thing... I don't like it.

[tragula]

This has also bothered me. My brother is very INTJ, and I always thought we were a lot alike, but now I found MBTI I understand the differences better. He says things like "that seems to make sense" a lot, and is much neater!

My understanding is that P/J is different quality then the S/N and T/F as it is not a thought process. Not a "wire". I think perhaps thinking of it as a timer may help a little. For INTJ a time's up clock goes off in their head and they take action. Being creatures of habit and inertia this has major consequences in the way we lead our lives. Decisiveness breads more action, as it produces results, and spirals upwards into Ambition. Sitting around like a bumb on a log also becomes habitual and is in some ways a negative spiral. In this sense I do aspire to be much more J, which seems to be just about better self discipline sometimes. Keeping your room neat and doing your laundy regularly just makes good sense. On the other hand if you actually really care about getting the right answer to a complicated question, and not just a probably right answer, then INTP has the upper hand. It all depends on what the game is. In the game of life I would say that INTJ does better, but that occasionaly an INTP will hit the jackpot and make a major breakthrough!

I do know some people who are neat at work and messy at home! So of course it gets complicated.

The other wrinkle is that INTP is described as primarily an introverted thinker with extroverted intuition, whereas INTJ is the other way around. Haven't yet grasped the basis for this theory. Being a really strong Ne and more balanced in other letters makes me wonder if Ne isn't in fact my dominant function most of the time. But the orientations described do make some sense to me as my brother is more comfortable discussing issues without thinking first. Perhaps that is the timer issue again--that something goes off in his head and says enough mulling over your response, it's time to communicate. On the other hand I am much better at small talk than he is--strong Ne.

[CreativeChaos]

I think Socionics is full of it.

Here is a site that we NFs use to determine INFP or INFJ. I think it can be *very* helpful in this case as well.

http://members.aol.com/macvjv/INFJorINFP.htm

I *really* think the process in determining P or J will be the same in this case. Just substitue T for F and read basically the highlights. (Details listed may or may not apply to a T.)

I would hit the highlights as suggested on page 3:

If you're in a hurry and only want to hit the highlights, do this:

1. Confirm your Temperament.
2. Determine whether you prefer Informing or Directing.
3. Choose which interaction style sounds most like you.
4. Decide whether your F energy first goes inward or outward.


Determine whether you prefer Informing or Directing.

Whether T or F, if you prefer the Informing mode, that is the open Perceiving style. If you prefer the Directing mode, that is the Judging, closure style.

Choose which interaction style sounds most like you.

The two styles are Chart the Course, and Behind the Scenes. Judging types tend to "plan ahead" and group others around their "direction". Perceiving types in their informing role, tend to work "Behind the Scenes", putting together different sources of information.

Decide whether your T energy first goes inward or outward.

You can use this site to help decide if your T is an "inny" or an "outy". Just substitute T for F. An INTP's major function is Ti. An INFP's major function is Fi. But they both have Ne, that is extraverted intuition. That is the way they deal with the "outer" world. So the similarity in interation style, informing style, should be the same.

An INTJ's major function is Ni and the INTJ's T function is Te. So if your T is extraverted, that is focused outward on things "out there", rather than inward then you're likely an INTJ. Both INFJ's and INTJ's primary function is Ni. One is supported by feeling the other by thinking. So again the interaction style should be the same.

Anyway, I hope this site helps. I really think the similarities are close enough such that T or F is *not* the main contributing factor. Just translate the F to T.

[rhinosaur]

I decided to resurrect this thread because it's one of the oldest I can find.
I also want to annoy Zephyrus055.