Draft Bill?

[Rooster]

I'm not sure I'm reading this right. Is this suppose to be a draft bill? They are suppose to discuss this on the 6th?

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h109-4752

At least its equal oppurtunity.

[sbw]

umm, yea...I stopped reading when I got to "mr. rangel introduced..."

Scott

[Rooster]

umm, yea...I stopped reading when I got to "mr. rangel introduced..."

Scott

So not to be taken seriously, right?

[sbw]

correct. rangel does that every couple years because it lets him dust off the 'blacks and latinos are disproportionately represented in the armed forces' shtick.

Scott

[Rooster]

correct. rangel does that every couple years because it lets him dust off the 'blacks and latinos are disproportionately represented in the armed forces' shtick.

Scott

Thanx, good to hear. Now I don't have to go to Canada.

[C.J.Woolf]

"To provide for the common defense by requiring all persons in the United States, including women, between the ages of 18 and 42..."

Yow.

Sure, it's just political theater, but Rangel is trying to put the Republicans on the spot regarding their half-assed war in Iraq. They won't even expand the regular Army, much less impose a draft.

Actually, there is compulsory military service right now. It's only imposed on the regulars, reservists, and National Guardsmen, and it's called "stop-loss".

[omnirook]

correct. rangel does that every couple years because it lets him dust off the 'blacks and latinos are disproportionately represented in the armed forces' shtick.

Scott
I don't like Mr Rangel. He has been the representative for upper Manhattan for decades - let it rot, while he played at getting lucrative projects under his control. Now, as Harlem is being gentrified, so that its long-time (and mostly black) population are being forced out, he doesn't seem to notice - or care ... The US got rid of the draft to avoid having another popular anti-war movement. The US military is largely made up of poor people - blacks, hispanics, and white "trash." Nobody (important) cares. Simple pragmatism - people care less if volunteers are killed; people don't care at all, so long as they themselves don't have to go.

That said, I believe that we should have a draft - a merciless draft where everyone, and I mean everyone, would have to go and where posts at embassies could only go to those who had seen field action. Direct to the front-line, no stopping off at the National Guard, would be anybody related to any office holder ... Never happen - but, if it had, we'd not be in Iraq now.

[omnirook]

Thanx, good to hear. Now I don't have to go to Canada.
Just show up at the induction center in a dress and high-heels w/a pocketbook slung over your arm, singing "We are family" as you disco up to desk and flutter your eyelashes at the sargeant. You won't have to go to Canada.

[C.J.Woolf]

Just show up at the induction center in a dress and high-heels w/a pocketbook slung over your arm, singing "We are family" as you disco up to desk and flutter your eyelashes at the sargeant. You won't have to go to Canada.
Time to revive the Alice's Restaurant Massacree Movement?

[cryingmime]

Time to revive the Alice's Restaurant Massacree Movement?

I will be saving seats on the Group W bench for you all.

r

[Ka.avik]

That said, I believe that we should have a draft - a merciless draft where everyone, and I mean everyone, would have to go and where posts at embassies could only go to those who had seen field action. Direct to the front-line, no stopping off at the National Guard, would be anybody related to any office holder ... Never happen - but, if it had, we'd not be in Iraq now.

I wouldn't really do very well in the army, as so many INTPs here have said of themselves -- especially those who've served! But still, I have to agree that a part of how this farce came to be, is that so many (voters) didn't catch the logistics of what was being played out. If everyone had experience in the military, we'd all be smart enough to know we don't belong in Iraq.

But I don't think either, that those of us who see it that way should have to join just to make a point. I would like to point out that we'd have a very different culture if everyone went straight from highschool to the military for a two year stint before they could decide to come home ... the culture inside would beat the snot out of a few of the high-and-mighty would-be bullies and jocks and what have you -- and bolster up the egos of the quiet-but-murderous-in-heart. Imagine if Dylan Klebold (of columbine fame) had put off his and his toady's thing until after they did their army thing? Would they be cured of the need to kill, or find killing that much easier? Not to mention they'd have a stockpile of more 50rd clips and a full auto weapon if they went that route anyway.....

[Rooster]

Just show up at the induction center in a dress and high-heels w/a pocketbook slung over your arm, singing "We are family" as you disco up to desk and flutter your eyelashes at the sargeant. You won't have to go to Canada.

:rofl: I'll keep that in mind.

[omnirook]

Time to revive the Alice's Restaurant Massacree Movement?
I don't get the reference. What do you mean?

[cryingmime]

I don't get the reference. What do you mean?
you can get anything you want, at Alice's restaurant.

[omnirook]

you can get anything you want, at Alice's restaurant.
:blink:

[cryingmime]

:blink:
that's exactly the intended outcome.


heh.


but seriously, it's an epic song by Arlo Guthrie (which will now be stuck in my head all day long). it's also been turned into a movie of the same name (Alice's Restaurant). i suggest you watch/listen to both, but only buy the former (due to licensing issues, arlo guthrie makes virtually no money on sales of the DVD)

r

[Nighthawk]

Just show up at the induction center in a dress and high-heels w/a pocketbook slung over your arm, singing "We are family" as you disco up to desk and flutter your eyelashes at the sargeant. You won't have to go to Canada.

Probably wouldn't work. You could light up a big doobie as well, or take a big drag off a crack pipe and they'd still take you. My mortar section sergeant during the first gulf war was very gay. Quite a competent soldier too.

[mancroft]

I wouldn't really do very well in the army, as so many INTPs here have said of themselves -- especially those who've served!

Yep, the army is not really the place for INTPs... except possibly for intelligence.

*S*J types are much better suited.

[Nighthawk]

That said, I believe that we should have a draft - a merciless draft where everyone, and I mean everyone, would have to go and where posts at embassies could only go to those who had seen field action. Direct to the front-line, no stopping off at the National Guard, would be anybody related to any office holder ... Never happen - but, if it had, we'd not be in Iraq now.

Hmmm ... how about Robert Heinlein's vision of a society where only those people who had served in the military were considered citizens with the right to vote?

Of course, I am biased.

[omnirook]

Probably wouldn't work. You could light up a big doobie as well, or take a big drag off a crack pipe and they'd still take you. My mortar section sergeant during the first gulf war was very gay. Quite a competent soldier too.
Well, I'm finally glad to be middle-aged.

[omnirook]

Hmmm ... how about Robert Heinlein's vision of a society where only those people who had served in the military were considered citizens with the right to vote?

Of course, I am biased.
I would not object. Shouldn't be allowed to be Commander-in-chief w/o having served, either.

[Nighthawk]

Yep, the army is not really the place for INTPs... except possibly for intelligence.

*S*J types are much better suited.

Unfortunately, Military Intelligence is an oxymoron ;)

[Nighthawk]

I would not object. Shouldn't be allowed to be Commander-in-chief w/o having served, either.

... and I don't give credit to the current C-in-C for having gone to weekend drills a few times in the Texas Air National Guard.

[omnirook]

Unfortunately, Military Intelligence is an oxymoron ;)
:rofl:

[Nighthawk]

I do agree that it is a more survivable branch for an INTP ... but unfortunately, the army tends to stick young, male lieutenants into combat battalions as an S-2 (Intelligence Officer Staff Officer). So, you're stuck with the same macho, SJ bullshit that any other new lieutenant would face ... except that you are also perceived as a second class citizen because of your non-combat arms status.

Young Intelligence officers are stuck playing second (or third) fiddle to the operations guys when making tactical plans for the unit. Most of the plans are fairy tales anyway, so you are simply providing fictional input to fictional plans. They are also responsible for the physical security of all the weapons that the unit keeps ... which translates into a ton of paperwork and inspections. Oh yeah ... and they give the daily weather report.

[omnirook]

I do agree that it is a more survivable branch for an INTP ... but unfortunately, the army tends to stick young, male lieutenants into combat battalions as an S-2 (Intelligence Officer Staff Officer). So, you're stuck with the same macho, SJ bullshit that any other new lieutenant would face ... except that you are also perceived as a second class citizen because of your non-combat arms status.

Young Intelligence officers are stuck playing second (or third) fiddle to the operations guys when making tactical plans for the unit. Most of the plans are fairy tales anyway, so you are simply providing fictional input to fictional plans. They are also responsible for the physical security of all the weapons that the unit keeps ... which translates into a ton of paperwork and inspections. Oh yeah ... and they give the daily weather report.
This is more of a feeling than a well-informed opinion - officers should come up through the ranks. The ROTC and other forms of churning out 8-week wonders to lord it over field sargeants w/real experience seems, well, foolish. What do you think?

[mancroft]

Unfortunately, Military Intelligence is an oxymoron

Corny.

[Nighthawk]

This is more of a feeling than a well-informed opinion - officers should come up through the ranks. The ROTC and other forms of churning out 8-week wonders to lord it over field sargeants w/real experience seems, well, foolish. What do you think?

Hmmm ... tough one. There is always the perception that the fresh 2nd lieutenant doesn't know what he or she is doing, when compared to the sergeant with 10-20 years under his/her belt. In some respects that is true ... and the lieutenant would be smart to take the advice of a seasoned non-commissioned officer.

Most officer schools last 4-years nowadays ... except for a very small handful of Officer Candidate School commissions who go through in 90-days. Hence, the term Ninety Day Wonder. I cannot speak to ROTC, but West Point consisted of 4 tough years, where the cadet was very deeply immersed in the military, to include basic and advance training, as well as some specialty schools. There is some contact with sergeants on a regular basis, to begin some of the wisdom transfer.

Even with 4 years of hard military training, the new lieutenant is still a neophyte in the world of the real army. Some learn fast, others learn slow, and still others never learn at all. There is usually a rift between the enlisted and officers ... and there will always be occasions where the sergeant considers the young officer to be an ignorant smartass. There are precious few officers who have come up through the ranks ... especially in peacetime. I have known a few. Oddly enough, they were sometimes not well received by the soldiers. Not sure why. Might make a good case study.

[omnirook]

Hmmm ... tough one. There is always the perception that the fresh 2nd lieutenant doesn't know what he or she is doing, when compared to the sergeant with 10-20 years under his/her belt. In some respects that is true ... and the lieutenant would be smart to take the advice of a seasoned non-commissioned officer.

Most officer schools last 4-years nowadays ... except for a very small handful of Officer Candidate School commissions who go through in 90-days. Hence, the term Ninety Day Wonder. I cannot speak to ROTC, but West Point consisted of 4 tough years, where the cadet was very deeply immersed in the military, to include basic and advance training, as well as some specialty schools. There is some contact with sergeants on a regular basis, to begin some of the wisdom transfer.

Even with 4 years of hard military training, the new lieutenant is still a neophyte in the world of the real army. Some learn fast, others learn slow, and still others never learn at all. There is usually a rift between the enlisted and officers ... and there will always be occasions where the sergeant considers the young officer to be an ignorant smartass. There are precious few officers who have come up through the ranks ... especially in peacetime. I have known a few. Oddly enough, they were sometimes not well received by the soldiers. Not sure why. Might make a good case study.
Thank you. Interesting ... I had been told by an ex-marine that 2nd lieutenants were usually deferential to sargeants w/field experience. That is good. What percentage of officers come from places like West Point? [Before he died, I took my father there to see it. He - and I - were impressed. We watched a drill on the field, in addition to touring the cemetary.]

[sbw]

or take a big drag off a crack pipe and they'd still take you.

damn, I can't win for losing.

Scott

[Nighthawk]

Thank you. Interesting ... I had been told by an ex-marine that 2nd lieutenants were usually deferential to sargeants w/field experience. That is good. What percentage of officers come from places like West Point? [Before he died, I took my father there to see it. He - and I - were impressed. We watched a drill on the field, in addition to touring the cemetary.]

West Point cranks out about 1,000 or so officers a year. Was roughly 20-25% of the annual requirement when I attended. Not sure what it is nowadays. Almost all the rest come from ROTC, with the top portion of the graduates getting a shot at active duty, while the rest go into the reserves. All West Point grads go to active duty. A very small portion come from OCS, to balance out what is needed at the last moment to make the annual quota.

Some of this information is a decade or so old. Things may have changed a bit. I know they were talking about making everybody a reservist ... which outraged the West Point community.

West Point is a pretty imposing place. Still cannot get it out of my head.

[omnirook]

West Point cranks out about 1,000 or so officers a year. Was roughly 20-25% of the annual requirement when I attended. Not sure what it is nowadays. Almost all the rest come from ROTC, with the top portion of the graduates getting a shot at active duty, while the rest go into the reserves. All West Point grads go to active duty. A very small portion come from OCS, to balance out what is needed at the last moment to make the annual quota.

Some of this information is a decade or so old. Things may have changed a bit. I know they were talking about making everybody a reservist ... which outraged the West Point community.

West Point is a pretty imposing place. Still cannot get it out of my head.
The percentage is probably about the same. Thank you. ... I don't feel that it is right to penalize in an effort at "political correctness" - the cadets were right to object. If West Point grads have traditionally gone directly into the acitve units, then they should continue to go into the active units. From what I understood, it's very hard to get into West Point. Very hard to stay in West Point, and quite a thing to be proud of at graduation from West Point. Congratulations! ... I have always felt that the US military has had a much better record of promoting people on the basis of accomplishment than, say, US corporations - and certainly the US Government. Some might be shown favor because of who they are, but most do deserve promotion when they get it.

[Wotton]

As much as I love the idea of everyone having to serve two years of military duty, I think I'll hold off on support of it even in theory until we really are under authoritarian rule.

Requiring it before allowing someone to take a political office that has control over the military sounds like a much more workable idea, because it would be voluntary and practical--as long as it were possible for every citizen to do it, and couldn't be misused to keep certain groups from having a chance to hold office. (See also: literacy tests for voting.)

[omnirook]

damn, I can't win for losing.

Scott
:rofl:

[Rooster]

I almost want to watch C-SPAN tomorrow just to hear the debate on this bill. If anybody is a government nut then please let me know how this goes.