Geno's in Philly has a sign up "This is America. Order your food in English."

[Nemesis]

It's leaving a bad taste in peoples' mouths and it shows just how uncosmopolitan so many American cities are. When I went to Europe, if you didn't speak English, you didn't get anywhere, but people went above and beyond that, they went out of their way to learn enough of 5 different languages to serve their tourist customers. The guy is refusing to take down the sign too. What do you think?

[Wotton]

I like that he's up-front in stating his xenophobia & ignorance. Easier to know who not to buy from, right?

[coffeezombie]

He's an idiot because he's of Italian descent and is putting a foreign people's language above his own ancestral language. English is not an "American language."

[Xander]

I'd tell him that he needs to learn to speak it first!

[eyebyte_atWork]

IN his own mind he may be thinking that by forcing customers to speak english he is helping immigrants (you know - tough love and all that). The same ratonale that allows father to nearly drown their kids in an effort to teach them to swim.

I can see some reasoning there - but in the growing global world we live in it would be wise to embrace diversity.

[ApeTheDog]

There are idiotic people everywhere. You find them in europe as well.

[omnirook]

It's leaving a bad taste in peoples' mouths and it shows just how uncosmopolitan so many American cities are. When I went to Europe, if you didn't speak English, you didn't get anywhere, but people went above and beyond that, they went out of their way to learn enough of 5 different languages to serve their tourist customers. The guy is refusing to take down the sign too. What do you think?
I think that his sign should also state his price for his "freedom fries."

I keep trying to get over the embarrassment of being an American. We are "ugly Americans" when we go abroad, and we do have this talent for being loutish and proudly ignorant. Americans are the only people I've come across who are actually proud to be ignorant.

personal anecdote ...
I was up in the Scottish Highlands. I was in this little town, called "Strathfeffer" (spelling?). I had come across a fellow American and was talking to him in the hotel coffee lounge. I said something like, "Isn't Scotland beautiful?" There, right there, w/in earshot of Scots, he says, "Yeah, too bad it's all stolen." Every Scots eye snapped in his direction, but nobody said a word. He was a guest, after all. So, after I managed to shove my own eyes back into my head, I said, "Stolen? From whom? Who was here before the Scottish, mountain goats? Our whole fucking country is stolen, or did you forget about the Indians?" I stood up, looked at the Scots, who had all stopped to listen, and I appologized, "I'm sorry that one of my countrymen is so damned ignorant!" Then I left the coffee lounge.

[sbw]

I keep trying to get over the embarrassment of being an American. We are "ugly Americans" when we go abroad, and we do have this talent for being loutish and proudly ignorant. Americans are the only people I've come across who are actually proud to be ignorant.

thats why I try to interact with them as little as possible.

Scott

[ApeTheDog]

This is a good place to post this link, which details some of the most obnoxious characteristics of some americans. These are things that are quite typical for people from the USA, although this mentality is starting to seep into young european minds as well (hurray for cultural dominance)

http://klausler.com/cargo.html

[sbw]

yea, ape--stupid people are like that...I think they always have been.

Scott

[omnirook]

This is a good place to post this link, which details some of the most obnoxious characteristics of some americans. These are things that are quite typical for people from the USA, although this mentality is starting to seep into young european minds as well (hurray for cultural dominance)

http://klausler.com/cargo.html
That's very good. Very succinct, very accurate. Thank you.

[bergenski]

I don't have a problem with it.

[Biff_Loman]

"This is America. Order your food in English or Spanish."

[omnirook]

"This is America. Order your food in English or Spanish."
Si, tengo hambre, una porcion de fritos libertad, por favor.

[sbw]

ummm, bistek de queso de philly, por favor?

Scott

[eyebyte_atWork]

quero taco bell

[sbw]

conversation that I had with my cousin's friend in michigan last year:

me: taco bell is my favorite restaurant.
him: taco bell is not a restaurant, but I respect the fact that you think it is.

Scott

[omnirook]

See? It's not so dificil to pick up some Spanish. One had better if one wants to live in the United States at the end of the next couple of decades!

[sbw]

aprendo mucho al trabajo aqui en florida

Scott

[omnirook]

conversation that I had with my cousin's friend in michigan last year:

me: taco bell is my favorite restaurant.
him: taco bell is not a restaurant, but I respect the fact that you think it is.

Scottt
I like your cousin's friend! :rofl:

[sbw]

I like your cousin's friend! :rofl:

me too--he's the archetypal straight man to my (ENF) cousin. my brother (ENFP) has a similar friend, actually.

Scott

[eyebyte_atWork]

conversation that I had with my cousin's friend in michigan last year:

me: taco bell is my favorite restaurant.
him: taco bell is not a restaurant, but I respect the fact that you think it is.

Scottt


Taco bell is a great restaraunt... but some people around here like a local chain much more .... Taco Bueno (http://www.tacobueno.com/)

[kendoiwan]

The Store owner in question was on GMA this morning... he reminded me of Bill The Butcher from "Gangs of NY" I shit you not...

[sbw]

Taco bell is a great restaraunt... but some people around here like a local chain much more .... Taco Bueno (http://www.tacobueno.com/)

the taco bueno 'muchaco' looks like a gordita...which means that I went and checked out the taco bueno website...I might be the fattest person alive.

Scott

[eyebyte_atWork]

the taco bueno 'muchaco' looks like a gordita...which means that I went and checked out the taco bueno website...I might be the fattest person alive.

Scott


They are much tastier than gorditas.

and their nachos are to die for.

[jittus rye]

Putting a sign up is a little politically forward. But "you're supposed to speak English if you live in America." MORE POWER TO HIM! AH HAH AHA.
The Purpose of a city isn't to be cosmopolitan Nemesis.
On another note, it isn't hard to get food ordered if you can't speak any language.


English only at Philly cheesesteak joint

By PATRICK WALTERS
ASSOCIATED PRESS WRITER

PHILADELPHIA -- Bistec con queso? Not at Geno's Steaks.

An English-only ordering policy has thrust one of Philadelphia's best-known cheesesteak joints into the national immigration debate.

Situated in a South Philadelphia immigrant neighborhood, Geno's - which together with its chief rival, Pat's King of Steaks, forms the epicenter of an area described as "ground zero for cheesesteaks" - has posted small signs telling customers, "This Is AMERICA: WHEN ORDERING `SPEAK ENGLISH.'"

"They don't know how lucky they are. All we're asking them to do is learn the English language," said Geno's owner Joseph Vento, 66. "We're out to help these people, but they've got to help themselves, too."

Vento, whose grandparents struggled to learn English after immigrating from Sicily in the 1920s, said he posted the sign about six months ago amid concerns over immigration reform and the increasing number of customers who could not order in English when they wanted Philly's gooey, greasy specialty - fried steak, sliced or chopped, in a long roll, with cheese and fried onions.

Of course, it's not as if native Philadelphians speak the King's English either. A Philadelphian might order a cheesesteak by saying something like, "Yo, gimme a cheesesteak wit, will youse?" ("Wit," or "with," means with fried onions.) To which the counterman might reply: "Youse want fries widdat?"

advertising
The traditionally Italian community near Geno's has become more diverse over the decades. Immigrants from Asia and Latin America have moved in, joining longtime residents and young professionals seeking reasonably priced rowhouses. In the past 10 years, an estimated 15,000 to 20,000 Mexican immigrants - many of them here illegally, community leaders say - have settled in South Philly.

Vento said his staff is glad to help non-native speakers order in English and has never turned someone away because of a language barrier.

But the policy has "really upset a lot of a people," said Brad Baldia of Day Without An Immigrant, a coalition of immigrant groups. "For some people, I think we're just going to say, `Le gusta Pat's.'"

Juntos, a Hispanic neighborhood organization, said it plans to send people to Geno's to try to order in Spanish and may pursue court action, depending on what happens.

"His grandparents encountered the same racism and the same xenophobia," said Peter Bloom, the group's director. "Why would he begin that process over again?"

Vento said he has gotten plenty of criticism and threats. One person told him they hoped one his many neon signs flames out and burns the place down, he said. But he said he plans to hold his ground.

Customers placing orders on a recent morning seemed unfazed.

Angelica Marquez, 22 and originally from Puerto Rico, ordered in well-spoken English, but said some of her relatives struggle with the language. "They always come and just say `cheesesteak,'" Marquez said, adding that the policy "bothers her some" but not enough to keep her away.

When a non-English speaking customer showed up at the window a short time later, a clerk patiently coached him through the process. Eventually, both said "cheesesteak."

Vento, a short, fiery man with a ninth-grade education, arms covered in tattoos and a large diamond ring in his ear, also sells "freedom fries" to protest France's opposition to the Iraq war. He rails against Mumia Abu-Jamal, the black man who was convicted of killing police Officer Daniel Faulkner in 1981 and has become a cause celebre among some death penalty opponents. Memorials to Faulkner are posted at his shop.

Those who market the city, often using images of Geno's and other famous steak shops, are watching with concern.

"I certainly wouldn't want a national audience to think it represented all of the wonderful cheesesteak makers in the whole city," said Meryl Levitz, president and chief executive of the Greater Philadelphia Tourism Marketing Corp. "This isn't representative of the Philadelphia attitude."

Competitors are seizing on the controversy.

Tony Luke's issued a statement saying it welcomes all customers "whether or not they speak a `wit' of English."

And a manager at Pat's, Kathy Smith, said of Geno's English-only policy: "That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard in my life. I'd rather listen to the Spanish than the foul language of the college students."
curtesy of http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1110AP_English_Only_Cheesesteaks.html

[booyalab]

It's leaving a bad taste in peoples' mouths and it shows just how uncosmopolitan so many American cities are. When I went to Europe, if you didn't speak English, you didn't get anywhere, but people went above and beyond that, they went out of their way to learn enough of 5 different languages to serve their tourist customers. The guy is refusing to take down the sign too. What do you think?

That would be ridiculously unpragmatic for this guy to learn 5 different languages just for his customers. This ISN'T Europe. If most of his customers weren't comfortable speaking English, he'd have gone out of business by now.

[nottaprettygal]

"We're out to help these people, but they've got to help themselves, too."

This man is a true American patriot. He's changing lives by helping immigrants to learn one of the most important words in the entire English language. Cheesesteak.

[jittus rye]

Illegal immigration shall not be tolerated by patriots! If others suffer for it, so be it. Vote FOR killing illegals. Not their children born in the US of course. That's like a loophole.

[bergenski]

This man is a true American patriot. He's changing lives by helping immigrants to learn one of the most important words in the entire English language. Cheesesteak.
Actually, he should help them learn "five ninety five"

[eyebyte_atWork]

This man is a true American patriot. He's changing lives by helping immigrants to learn one of the most important words in the entire English language. Cheesesteak.

I knew I could count on you to the voice of reason here.

[Lee]

It's leaving a bad taste in peoples' mouths and it shows just how uncosmopolitan so many American cities are. When I went to Europe, if you didn't speak English, you didn't get anywhere, but people went above and beyond that, they went out of their way to learn enough of 5 different languages to serve their tourist customers. The guy is refusing to take down the sign too. What do you think?There is a give and take in all transactions. The extra time, effort and errors involved in serving people who do not speak English will drive up costs, the proprietor of the business then has several choices, does he/she:

a) Spread the extra costs (waiting time, prices etc.) to all the customers.
b) Cover the extra costs by charging non-English speakers a high price.
c) Pass the costs onto the customer by refusing to serve them, unless they take the effort to learn some English.
d) or personally inncure the costs by learning enough of the foreign language to eliminate the problem.

Someone somewhere will have to pay the cost. The danger to the proprietor of any business that chooses a, b or c, is that any competitor that chooses d and relieves the customer of the costs involved, will be able to outcompete our more linguistically challenged shop owner. I suspect such a move to be economically naive, likely to drive away the customer base and play right into the hands of any competitor.

However, if anyone suggests that there should be a law against this kind of action, then I might slap them. Luckily, ordinary market mechanisms will probably teach the guy his lesson by hitting him in the pocket, hoepfully a similar messege will be felt by those who do not speak English. It isn't just about making one group pay all the costs, but a compromise is necessary.

[ApeTheDog]

The guy expecting people to speak english probably isn't what bothers most people - him putting up a sign does. It implies something, you know.

[Lee]

The guy expecting people to speak english probably isn't what bothers most people - him putting up a sign does. It implies something, you know.That he will not trade with them unless they do so in English?

[Xander]

I don't see the problem with the proprietor wanting everyone to speak his native language. I like many people can only speak my native tongue (I do know the occasional snippet but nothing truely useful) and would still like to be able to talk to everyone. What moves this particular piece past what is acceptable is that the man is demanding that all must speak his language or leave.

Though this behaviour is still lawful it is unecessarily rude and, as Lee has indicated, possibly unsound from a business sense.

I actually work with someone like this guy. They are not really what you might call 'open to change'.

[ApeTheDog]

That he will not trade with them unless they do so in English?

Think beyond the words, grasshopper.

[jittus rye]

Think beyond the words, grasshopper.
GET THE FUCK OUT BITCH! is a beyond the words possibility.

[bergenski]

snip
Unless he's a total dolt, he has likely thought about the potential financial consequences of the action and doesn't find them to be severe or severe enough to damage his position (in all meanings). You also aren't aware of how much attraction the product itself holds.

[Lee]

Think beyond the words, grasshopper.Lots of things that people do vaguely resemble the kind of actions that are now outlawed, such as signs saying "no blacks need apply." But similarity does not itself justify outrage, and it certainly does not justify lawful intervention.

[Lee]

Unless he's a total dolt, he has likely thought about the potential financial consequences of the action and doesn't find them to be severe or severe enough to damage his position (in all meanings).Maybe he has, maybe he hasn't. However, thinking about the potential economic consequences isn't the same as the actual economic consequences. Time will teach him whether the move was worth it.


You also aren't aware of how much attraction the product itself holds.I don't care.

I was only suggesting that supply and demand would hit him in the pocket, whether that is enough to change his behaviour or put him out of business doesn't matter. In such a case, the cost of resolving the issue must fall on the customers who do or will not speak English, either they swallow their pride, learn a little English or simply forego the goods on offer.

[bergenski]

snip
Well, the same argument falls on any business policy. What's your point?

[mgb]

With no "official language" in the US, I'm pretty sure you can't force someone to speak a certain language in the course of a business dealing. Sure you can try, but any money gained during time saved in ordering is going to spent on legal bills.

Rights go both ways, for the customer and the business.

[kendoiwan]

With no "official language" in the US, I'm pretty sure you can't force someone to speak a certain language in the course of a business dealing. Sure you can try, but any money gained during time saved in ordering is going to spent on legal bills.

Rights go both ways, for the customer and the business.

Management reserves the right to refuse service

[mgb]

Management reserves the right to refuse service

Like I said, they aren't the only ones with rights.

Are you saying you are ok with people refusing service based on skin color? How well did that work?

[eyebyte_atWork]

This is a silly topic - mainly because I personally will not go eat somewhere I felt uncomfortable in. If I spoke no english what so ever I would tend to choose places where the establishment could understand me and avoid the ones that cannot.

Just cause this guy put a sign out there does not change that dynamic. Everyone in the US is better equipted if they speak english (they can keep their native langauge - its all good mama jama)

If the guy wants to limit his business - it is his choice. That is fine too. If he wanted or needed more patrons - he could employ a multi-lingual standard there.

This place got some press and voila! - instant debates.

[kendoiwan]

Like I said, they aren't the only ones with rights.

Are you saying you are ok with people refusing service based on skin color? How well did that work?

No I'm saying management reserves the right to refuse service:mellow:

[wildcat]

There are idiotic people everywhere. You find them in europe as well.
Belgium is not Europe.

[mgb]

No I'm saying management reserves the right to refuse service:mellow:

I guess so.

[bergenski]

There's nothing wrong with the guy wanting people to speak English. People just don't like the presentation.

[nottaprettygal]

There is a give and take in all transactions. The extra time, effort and errors involved in serving people who do not speak English will drive up costs, the proprietor of the business then has several choices, does he/she:
BLAH BLAH BLAH


C'mon Lee. Not everything needs to boil down to an economic argument. This is just a story about some self-righteous asshole who wants people to speak English. The efforts to serve people who don't speak English are minimal. They serve cheesesteaks for christ's sake! Everyone knows the word "queso." It's not rocket science.

On a side note, the policy is also singling out any international visitors to Philly? Why should they be expected to speak English? Deaf people can be pretty hard to understand as well. Plus there's the fact that a thick Philly accent should barely be considered English in the first place.

[wildcat]

There's nothing wrong with the guy wanting people to speak English. People just don't like the presentation.
There happens to exist other languages besides English.

[cafe]

Boy, that's kind of a hard one. The sign is rude. But at the same time . . . I guess if I went to a country where I didn't speak the common language I would think it helpful and polite if someone knew enough English to acomodate me and was willing to do so, but I'm not sure I would expect it. If they figured out what it is I wanted despite the language barrier, I think I'd try to learn the word for next time.

When I go to ethnic restaurants (and in my neck of the woods, there's not a whole lot of variety) I try to order things according to their names on the menu. At my favorite Chinese carry-out I order Vegetable Lo Mein. I don't say "Seasoned Noodles with Vegetables." But I don't use a Chinese word for 'vegetable' either. If they had it on the menu spelled phonetically with "(Vegetable)" next to it, I might take a stab at it. I dunno. At my favorite Mexican restaurant, I order "Enchiladas" not "Seasoned Chicken Wrapped in Mexican Flat Bread, Covered with Sauce and Sprinkled with Cheese." If it made the waiter at my favorite restaurant happier if I orded pollo in my enchiladas instead of chicken, I'd play along.

I guess I can see both sides. As usual.

[bergenski]

They serve cheesesteaks for christ's sake! Everyone knows the word "queso."
Much as everyone knows the word "cheese." It's not too hard for foreign visitors to learn the words and I doubt he would turn away a deaf person. I try to use the local language in other countries. Non-English speakers get by with plenty in this country, and other countries are not nearly as accommodating to those who can't speak the local language.

[kendoiwan]

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=2057207&page=1

[Geoff]

Is that, order your food in Real English, or in American English?

-Geoff

[charred_heart]

"It [school] was strictly English. It wasn't in Italian, there was no choice," Vento said, adding that providing bilingual education and service at stores will ultimately hurt immigrants in the end.

The guy obviously doesn't want to serve latin customers, and his alleged 'concern' is just for the sake of political correctness.

[Nemesis]

The Purpose of a city isn't to be cosmopolitan Nemesis.
So we should actively strive not to be?

[Nemesis]

That would be ridiculously unpragmatic for this guy to learn 5 different languages just for his customers. This ISN'T Europe. If most of his customers weren't comfortable speaking English, he'd have gone out of business by now.
I was pointing out how some people DO go out of their way to make customers feel welcome by learning ENOUGH of 5 languages, and this guy is complaining about "bistec con queso."

[Nemesis]

There is a give and take in all transactions. The extra time, effort and errors involved in serving people who do not speak English will drive up costs, the proprietor of the business then has several choices, does he/she:

a) Spread the extra costs (waiting time, prices etc.) to all the customers.
b) Cover the extra costs by charging non-English speakers a high price.
c) Pass the costs onto the customer by refusing to serve them, unless they take the effort to learn some English.
d) or personally inncure the costs by learning enough of the foreign language to eliminate the problem.

Someone somewhere will have to pay the cost. The danger to the proprietor of any business that chooses a, b or c, is that any competitor that chooses d and relieves the customer of the costs involved, will be able to outcompete our more linguistically challenged shop owner. I suspect such a move to be economically naive, likely to drive away the customer base and play right into the hands of any competitor.

However, if anyone suggests that there should be a law against this kind of action, then I might slap them. Luckily, ordinary market mechanisms will probably teach the guy his lesson by hitting him in the pocket, hoepfully a similar messege will be felt by those who do not speak English. It isn't just about making one group pay all the costs, but a compromise is necessary.
How about this, maybe he shouldn't bitch about someone pointing to "cheesesteak with onions and peppers" on a menu and saying "este por favor/ sil vous pla?t/ bitte/ per favore."

[kendoiwan]

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=2057207&page=1
In 40 yrs no one has ever been refused service cuz of a language barrier if they could point

[cafe]

Do people actually not bother at all to try to learn English when they come here? Can you get by here without knowing any English? I don't think you could pull it off where I live, but admitedly, this is a non-cosmo relatively rural area. If you tried to order something around and you didn't speak English, you would probably only get a blank stare unless you got someone *really* nice. Heck, at a laundromat in Kentucky, they were reluctant to help me because of my Northern accent. Up here, if you have a thick Southern accent, they'd probably still wait on you, but treat you like an idiot. If you were from farther North, they'd probably think you were curt and rude and not give you great service . . .

[Lee]

C'mon Lee. Not everything needs to boil down to an economic argument. This is just a story about some self-righteous asshole who wants people to speak English. The efforts to serve people who don't speak English are minimal. They serve cheesesteaks for christ's sake! Everyone knows the word "queso." It's not rocket science.

On a side note, the policy is also singling out any international visitors to Philly? Why should they be expected to speak English? Deaf people can be pretty hard to understand as well. Plus there's the fact that a thick Philly accent should barely be considered English in the first place.I'm not saying that he should be doing it, only that he should have the right to do it.

There is a problem, the solution to any problem will incur costs to somebody. No group should be allowed to force another to pick up all the costs. The thing is that costs are not just about time and money, costs are subjective valuations. For example, you might enjoy computer programming, while a friend may find it boring, a job in computer programming is therefore less costly to you than to your friend. In other words, there is nothing inherently costly about anything, it is a matter of subjective valuation.

Looking at the link Kendoiwan posted, it hardly seems like a real issue anyway, just some guy who wants to encourage immigrants to learn English.

[Nemesis]

In 40 yrs no one has ever been refused service cuz of a language barrier if they could point
Indeed. Hell I bought a €150 watch in Rapallo, Italy from this little old woman who didn't speak a word of english! She even managed to explain to me how to set the thing up in less than 10 minutes!

[Nemesis]

I'm not saying that he should be doing it, only that he should have the right to do it.

Looking at the link Kendoiwan posted, it hardly seems like a real issue anyway, just some guy who wants to encourage immigrants to learn English.
Yeah, lemme tell ya, the night classes are gonna be packed now! "¡Mi Dios! ¡No puedo preguntar por un bistec con queso porque no hablo inglés! ¿Habría yo aprender inglés?"

[bergenski]

Looking at the link Kendoiwan posted, it hardly seems like a real issue.
Exactly, if the link is to be taken at face value. But the sensational aspects of the story drives it in the media and, dare I say, at a friggin' Internet forum, when it seems this guy is a Philly institution who serves a pretty damn good cheese steak and seemingly has nothing against immigrants. In fact, relating to your suggestion in monetary terms, this policy could conceivably increase business.

[Lee]

How about this, maybe he shouldn't bitch about someone pointing to "cheesesteak with onions and peppers" on a menu and saying "este por favor/ sil vous pla?t/ bitte/ per favore."Maybe you shouldn't bitch about him bitching about someone pointing to "cheesesteak with onions and peppers" on a menu and saying "este por favor/ sil vous pla?t/ bitte/ per favore."

Cost is not something that is objectively applicable to everyone, just because you do not consider it an inconvenience (IOW, a cost), does not mean that others have to agree. Imagine if someone was offering $100 to someone who would let a large spider crawl on their face, now the costs involved differ dramatically depending on whether a person has arachnophobia or not, to someone who is not afraid of spiders it is almost $100 for nothing, obviously someone with arachnophobia will feel very differently.

Whatever reasons the guy may have, he obviously feels strongly about it. You are putting yourself in his shoes and deciding upon what you would do with your priorities, but you should also repsect that fact that he is not you and does not share your priorities.

My point is that your verdict doesn't tell us anything other than your own intolerance for the priorities of others. A free society means a society full of people who get on our nerves, you seem to have yet to learn that. But accepting differencs does not mean that one group should be forced to incur all the costs involved when overcoming the obstacles that divide us.

[sbw]

In 40 yrs no one has ever been refused service cuz of a language barrier if they could point

non-english speakers with no arms = fucked

Scott

[cafe]

non-english speakers with no arms = fucked

Scott
They'd have a heck of a time trying to eat the sandwich even if they managed to order the thing, I'd think.

[Lee]

In 40 yrs no one has ever been refused service cuz of a language barrier if they could pointYeah, it is a non-story really. Great press exposure though.

However, the debate itself seems to have moved on, because the misinterpretations are still hypothetical scenarios that might happen.

[charred_heart]

Lee, I saw that you were trying to argue the restaurant owner's position. I believe the benefits of bilingual service in restaurants outweigh the cost. A bigger consumer base, better atmosphere - a varied array of races in a restaurant always looks more interesting than a homogenous ethnic presence (reminds one of small town diners). Last but not least the concept of hospitality which I will not elaborate on because it's late.

[sbw]

Lee, I saw that you were trying to argue the restaurant owner's position. I believe the benefits of bilingual service in restaurants outweigh the cost. A bigger consumer base, better atmosphere - a varied array of races in a restaurant always looks more interesting than a homogenous ethnic presence (reminds one of small town diners). Last but not least the concept of hospitality which I will not elaborate on because it's late.

lee doesnt care, or even profess to know, how that particular cost-benefit analysis turns out. he's simply explaining that the proprietor has every right to do what he's doing.

Scott

[Lee]

Lee, I saw that you were trying to argue the restaurant owner's position. I believe the benefits of bilingual service in restaurants outweigh the cost. A bigger consumer base, better atmosphere - a varied array of races in a restaurant always looks more interesting than a homogenous ethnic presence (reminds one of small town diners). Last but not least the concept of hospitality which I will not elaborate on because it's late.Costs aren't just about money. How much of a dent he is willing to take in profits, depends on how strongly he feels about the situation. In other words, how much the alternative impacts him on a personal level. Whether those costs are worth it is a retrospective valuation, something to learn from.

Personally, if I were a friend of his, I'd tell him to not be so stupid, just learn a little Spanish. But I would also defend his right to disagree with me.

[bergenski]

Personally, if I were a friend of his, I'd tell him to not be so stupid, just learn a little Spanish.
Clearly its not about having to learn the language.

[libertarianjim]

I'm seeing a lot of people questioning the man's intellect.

It appears to me he managed to get free national advertising by putting up a sign.

[sbw]

I'm seeing a lot of people questioning the man's intellect.

It appears to me he managed to get free national advertising by putting up a sign.

yea--I don't question his intellect at all.

Scott

[cafe]

Am I nuts (don't answer that) or isn't Geno's not Pat's?

[Nemesis]

Maybe you shouldn't bitch about him bitching about someone pointing to "cheesesteak with onions and peppers" on a menu and saying "este por favor/ sil vous pla?t/ bitte/ per favore."

Cost is not something that is objectively applicable to everyone, just because you do not consider it an inconvenience (IOW, a cost), does not mean that others have to agree. Imagine if someone was offering $100 to someone who would let a large spider crawl on their face, now the costs involved differ dramatically depending on whether a person has arachnophobia or not, to someone who is not afraid of spiders it is almost $100 for nothing, obviously someone with arachnophobia will feel very differently.

Whatever reasons the guy may have, he obviously feels strongly about it. You are putting yourself in his shoes and deciding upon what you would do with your priorities, but you should also repsect that fact that he is not you and does not share your priorities.

My point is that your verdict doesn't tell us anything other than your own intolerance for the priorities of others. A free society means a society full of people who get on our nerves, you seem to have yet to learn that. But accepting differencs does not mean that one group should be forced to incur all the costs involved when overcoming the obstacles that divide us.
That's all well and peachy Lee. In the future, you could save everyone, yourself included, alot of time and just say "I don't care." Huge explanations are not necessary. You could follow that advice next time you feel like writing a 5 page essay on simple cost benefit analysis, but of course, that's your choice.

[Hustler]

"I certainly wouldn't want a national audience to think it represented all of the wonderful cheesesteak makers in the whole city," said Meryl Levitz, president and chief executive of the Greater Philadelphia Tourism Marketing Corp. "This isn't representative of the Philadelphia attitude."

What the fuck? Wonderful cheesesteak makers? Philadelphia attitude? Has this person ever actually been to Philadelphia or met one of these "wonderful cheesesteak masters?" My favorite place in the greater Philadelphia area to get a cheesesteak was a place called the Liberty Tavern. Those guys were masters of their craft, I guess, but they sure weren't wonderful. You could guess how good your cheesesteak was going to be by how many teeth the guy behind the counter had lost to fisticuffs and how many prison tattooes he had picked up along the way. If, in at least 30% of visits, you were not cursed out/repeatedly insulted and physically threatened, it was not a cheesesteak place worth visiting.

It seems like this guy is completely representative of the "Philadelphia attitude," and I do mean attitude. You know how when you go to head shops, you're not supposed to say "bong" or "joint" or make any specific mention of drugs. If you don't follow these rules, the head shop people tell you you're supposed to say water pipe and that they won't be able to sell you anything if you keep it up. But, in the end, they always sell you stuff. So it's like a big joke. Not in Philadelphia. They actually throw you out of the store, but only after they first assault you with a string of insults. But, then again, I guess I can understand. Afterall, it's Philadelphia, and the only bigger assholes than the store owners are the customers. I could go on and on, but I'll stop here. So, in closing:

FREE MUMIA!!!

[Nemesis]

Am I nuts (don't answer that) or isn't Geno's not Pat's?
It is, I heard about it on the radio (Q102) this morning and got the names mixed up.

[charred_heart]

I would also defend his right to disagree with me.That's a given. You can't close down a man's place because of the way he likes to offer his services considering he has not infringed on the civil or human rights of others.


Costs aren't just about money. How much of a dent he is willing to take in profits, depends on how strongly he feels about the situation. In other words, how much the alternative impacts him on a personal level. Whether those costs are worth it is a retrospective valuation, something to learn from.There is a cost to what he is doing. A lot of people would now avoid his place, either from disgust or fear of apearing to support his viewpoint.

[Nemesis]

What the fuck? Wonderful cheesesteak makers? Philadelphia attitude? Has this person ever actually been to Philadelphia or met one of these "wonderful cheesesteak masters?" My favorite place in the greater Philadelphia area to get a cheesesteak was a place called the Liberty Tavern. Those guys were masters of their craft, I guess, but they sure weren't wonderful. You could guess how good your cheesesteak was going to be by how many teeth the guy behind the counter had lost to fisticuffs and how many prison tattooes he had picked up along the way. If, in at least 30% of visits, you were not cursed out/repeatedly insulted and physically threatened, it was not a cheesesteak place worth visiting.

It seems like this guy is completely representative of the "Philadelphia attitude," and I do mean attitude. You know how when you go to head shops, you're not supposed to say "bong" or "joint" or make any specific mention of drugs. If you don't follow these rules, the head shop people tell you you're supposed to say water pipe and that they won't be able to sell you anything if you keep it up. But, in the end, they always sell you stuff. So it's like a big joke. Not in Philadelphia. They actually throw you out of the store, but only after they first assault you with a string of insults. But, then again, I guess I can understand. Afterall, it's Philadelphia, and the only bigger assholes than the store owners are the customers. I could go on and on, but I'll stop here. So, in closing:

FREE MUMIA!!!
:rofl: Ahh. Make a Philadelphian Metropolitan proud.

[libertarianjim]

There is a cost to what he is doing. A lot of people would now avoid his place, either from disgust or fear of apearing to support his viewpoint.

According to some polls, over 80% of Americans support making English the national language (with Hispanics not that much lower than that figure).

I could see it helping his business. More than a few people in Philly might turn out to support him. And a good many who are turned off by this might not have been cheesesteak eaters anyway.

[Nemesis]

According to some polls, over 80% of Americans support making English the national language (with Hispanics not that much lower than that figure).

I could see it helping his business. More than a few people in Philly might turn out to support him. And a good many who are turned off by this might not have been cheesesteak eaters anyway.
I don't understand what the point of making English the national language is, it seems rather superfluous to me.

[Enigma]

Obviously not gifted, but on the other hand, it may not necessarily be bad for business. If most of his customer base are local yahoos and rednecks, the positive reaction from them in terms of repeat business may outweigh the loss of customers who do not speak (or read?) English.

When I was in Turkey I got along quite well in English, German, Italian and Turkish. Ironically the substantially less educated hawkers on the street were generally more competent than I was in at least 2 languages!

One of them offered 100 sheep for me. I decided to hold out for a better offer. That was 1995. Hmmmm.

[charred_heart]

When I was in Turkey I got along quite well in English, German, Italian and Turkish. Ironically the substantially less educated hawkers on the street were generally more competent than I was in at least 2 languages!WHAT??? I've been to Turkey and I'd like to know the part where you had no problems communicating in english! German speakers have it easier, as there are more people in Turkey who know german than english.

[cafe]

As much as it generally goes against my NF nature to do so, I'm going to go ahead and sound like a jerk by saying that the old dude is right. Not speaking the common language of the place you live will have a negative economic impact on you and limit your opportunities. The common language in America may someday be something other than English, but for now, it's English.

And he is also doing something many people refuse to do. He's putting his money where his mouth is. I guess I find that admirable on some level.

[Nemesis]

As much as it generally goes against my NF nature to do so, I'm going to go ahead and sound like a jerk by saying that the old dude is right. Not speaking the common language of the place you live will have a negative economic impact on you and limit your opportunities. The common language in America may someday be something other than English, but for now, it's English.

And he is also doing something many people refuse to do. He's putting his money where his mouth is. I guess I find that admirable on some level.
:sick: Do you honestly think he's helping people by refusing to recognize any other language when a cheesesteak is being ordered? The only English it's going to force on people who don't speak English is the word "cheesesteak." Spinning this as tough altruism is just ridiculous, and frankly, insulting to my intelligence. He can say it if he wants, but don't try to paint a veritable slap in the face as a hand of friendship and helpfulness.

[cafe]

:sick: Do you honestly think he's helping people by refusing to recognize any other language when a cheesesteak is being ordered? The only English it's going to force on people who don't speak English is the word "cheesesteak." Spinning this as tough altruism is just ridiculous, and frankly, insulting to my intelligence. He can say it if he wants, but don't try to paint a veritable slap in the face as a hand of friendship and helpfulness.
No he's not helping people, but he's making a point. It's not always the same thing.

[faith]

The sign at Geno's is in English, right? Therefore only people who know at least a little English would be expected to read and understand that they need to order in English. It's not like he posted it in Spanish, German, Russian, and Farsi. On GMA, he pointed out that he coaches those people who can't speak English, working with them on pronouncing what they want and stuff like that. It sounds to me like he's targeting the segment of the population that knows enough English to read signs but is timid to take the huge step of speaking it for everyday purposes. Anyone who's lived overseas knows what a scary step that can be. Sometimes you need a little push.

When I was in Israel, I was always thankful for a falafel vendor who would help me with my pronounciation or teach me new words instead of just letting me flounder in my ingorance--or instead of letting me cop out and use English. Sure, it was easier for me to fall back on English, but there was also the implication that, "Your Hebrew is so atrocious that it hurts my ears. I'll gladly speak English for you if you'll just keep your Hebrew to yourself." Or, "I'm obviously smart enough to learn English, but I wouldn't expect you to be intelligent enough to speak Hebrew." I think that the biggest hinderance to using another language is fear of looking silly and being shunned. If the guy at Geno's isn't laughing at them for not knowing English or refusing them service because they can't pronounce it right, then I don't think he's doing anything wrong.

[mgb]

The sign at Geno's is in English, right? Therefore only people who know at least a little English would be expected to read and understand that they need to order in English. It's not like he posted it in Spanish, German, Russian, and Farsi. On GMA, he pointed out that he coaches those people who can't speak English, working with them on pronouncing what they want and stuff like that. It sounds to me like he's targeting the segment of the population that knows enough English to read signs but is timid to take the huge step of speaking it for everyday purposes. Anyone who's lived overseas knows what a scary step that can be. Sometimes you need a little push.

When I was in Israel, I was always thankful for a falafel vendor who would help me with my pronounciation or teach me new words instead of just letting me flounder in my ingorance--or instead of letting me cop out and use English. Sure, it was easier for me to fall back on English, but there was also the implication that, "Your Hebrew is so atrocious that it hurts my ears. I'll gladly speak English for you if you'll just keep your Hebrew to yourself." Or, "I'm obviously smart enough to learn English, but I wouldn't expect you to be intelligent enough to speak Hebrew." I think that the biggest hinderance to using another language is fear of looking silly and being shunned. If the guy at Geno's isn't laughing at them for not knowing English or refusing them service because they can't pronounce it right, then I don't think he's doing anything wrong.

Too bad he didn't get past grade 9. He could have been a real teacher. :P

[Nemesis]

No he's not helping people, but he's making a point. It's not always the same thing.
What point? You're different so you're not welcome here until you become like us? Yes. How American of him.

[jittus rye]

Nemesis what is your "nice issue?"

[cafe]

What point? You're different so you're not welcome here until you become like us? Yes. How American of him.
No. His point in the interview was that it is in an immigrant's best interest to learn and speak English.
If an American goes to another country and just expects everone else to adapt and speak English, then it's ugly, but if someone comes to America and refuses to adapt and speak English, then it's not ugly? I don't get that.

[Nemesis]

Nemesis what is your "nice issue?"
Beg pardon?

[Nemesis]

No. His point in the interview was that it is in an immigrant's best interest to learn and speak English.
If an American goes to another country and just expects everone else to adapt and speak English, then it's ugly, but if someone comes to America and refuses to adapt and speak English, then it's not ugly? I don't get that.
I do. How about this: People should be accomadating to eachother. This guy isn't changing the world by being a prick, he's just making himself look like a prick. Here's another thing. Businesses should be accomadating to the people they serve, or they shouldn't be businesses, and won't be for long. I guess things have changed since my time as a bus boy, and the customer is no longer always right.

As for telling people that if they live in the U.S., they should learn English, that makes the gross and pompous assumption that immigrants absolutely refuse to learn English.

[jittus rye]

Beg pardon?
There appears to be something seriously wrong with your psyche in relation to warranted human behavior. You appear to believe that everyone is supposed to be ultra friendly when such behavior is not justified.

[faith]

And while I'm being annoyed--this is totally unrelated--I'd like to refer people to wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugly_American) to make sure they understand that calling loud obnoxious Americans "ugly Americans" is a bit of a misnomer if you're referencing the book. In the book, the "ugly American" was the physically ugly American who had good sense about how to act overseas. You can call someone an ugly American in the same sense that my grandmother used the word ("Don't talk back to me; that's ugly."), but if so, there's no need to put it in quotes because you're using ugly as a normal adjective.

[Nemesis]

There appears to be something seriously wrong with your psyche in relation to warranted human behavior. You appear to believe that everyone is supposed to be ultra friendly when such behavior is not justified.
You wanna run that by me again? A problem with my psyche? I'm not even going to get into why you have absolutely no room to judge my mental health over an impersonal vBulletin online forum, because that's already been discussed ALOT around here. As for being ultra friendly, I didn't say he needs to be, I said he should stop being an asshole. And before you get into that whole explanation about how "should is subjective, therefore it is invalid," I've heard it before, and it bores me. As for such behavior not being justified, when is it ever not justified? Is it only justified when you want something? Screw that. I'll go on being friendly and possibly brightening someone's day thanks. I don't have a "big problem with warranted human behavior," I just don't tolerate Assholery.

[cafe]

I do. How about this: People should be accomadating to eachother. This guy isn't changing the world by being a prick, he's just making himself look like a prick. Here's another thing. Businesses should be accomadating to the people they serve, or they shouldn't be businesses, and won't be for long. I guess things have changed since my time as a bus boy, and the customer is no longer always right.

As for telling people that if they live in the U.S., they should learn English, that makes the gross and pompous assumption that immigrants absolutely refuse to learn English.

Did you and I watch the same interview?
And that guy will be in business until he decides to sell the place and retire to Florida.

[Nemesis]

Did you and I watch the same interview?
And that guy will be in business until he decides to sell the place and retire to Florida.
I didn't watch this interview. I don't have to to know that this guy is full of crap if he expects me to believe he's doing it for altruistic purposes.

[faith]

You wanna run that by me again? A problem with my psyche? I'm not even going to get into why you have absolutely no room to judge my mental health over an impersonal vBulletin online forum, because that's already been discussed ALOT around here. As for being ultra friendly, I didn't say he needs to be, I said he should stop being an asshole. And before you get into that whole explanation about how "should is subjective, therefore it is invalid," I've heard it before, and it bores me. As for such behavior not being justified, when is it ever not justified? Is it only justified when you want something? Screw that. I'll go on being friendly and possibly brightening someone's day thanks. I don't have a "big problem with warranted human behavior," I just don't tolerate Assholery.

I love the double standard. He had no room to judge your mental health after exchanging messages online, but here we are sitting around making all kinds of assumptions about a cheesesteak vendor we've never met just because of a sign that we've *heard* about?

[faith]

I didn't watch this interview. I don't have to to know that this guy is full of crap if he expects me to believe he's doing it for altruistic purposes.

No, you don't have to watch the interview in order to jump to conclusions. You have to watch the interview in order to understand that he NEVER CLAIMED to be doing it for altruistic purposes.

The world is not divided into "selfish" and "altrusitic". Very few things are either completely selfish or completely altrusitic. This guy, like all of us, is a complex mixture of both.

[Nemesis]

I love the double standard. He had no room to judge your mental health after exchanging messages online, but here we are sitting around making all kinds of assumptions about a cheesesteak vendor we've never met just because of a sign that we've *heard* about?
I'm making judgements on the guys actions, and it doesn't take Jacques freakin' Sauniére to see that this guy is full of crap.

[Nemesis]

No, you don't have to watch the interview in order to jump to conclusions. You have to watch the interview in order to understand that he NEVER CLAIMED to be doing it for altruistic purposes.

The world is not divided into "selfish" and "altrusitic". Very few things are either completely selfish or completely altrusitic. This guy, like all of us, is a complex mixture of both.
Okay. CafeaulaitINFJ, who I was responding to, DID say that he did.

[mgb]

WHY CAN'T PEOPLE SPELL "A LOT"!! IT'S NOT ONE WORD!!!

Please continue.

[Claverhouse]

Please continue.

Or not.


Claverhouse :ph34r:

[mgb]

Or not.


Claverhouse :ph34r:

I didn't want to seem like my anger was out of control.

[cafe]

Okay. CafeaulaitINFJ, who I was responding to, DID say that he did.
No. I said he had a point, that his point is correct, and that I admire his willingness to stand up for a principle at the risk of a possible economic loss. I never said he was being altruistic and trying to help people. If he was altruistic and trying to help people, he'd start or volunteer at an ESL school or something.

[Nemesis]

No. I said he had a point, that his point is correct, and that I admire his willingness to stand up for a principle at the risk of a possible economic loss. I never said he was being altruistic and trying to help people. If he was altruistic and trying to help people, he'd start or volunteer at an ESL school or something.
Indeed. I was pissed off when I read your posts so perhaps I'm guilty of not reading your posts clearly and reading too much into them and itching for a fight o' righteousness. Sorry about that.

[bergenski]

Could you please change the fucking title of this thread to be correct? Thank you very much.

[cafe]

Indeed. I was pissed off when I read your posts so perhaps I'm guilty of not reading your posts clearly and reading too much into them and itching for a fight o' righteousness. Sorry about that.
NP. I do it too. Common NF failing, I think.

[Enigma]

Did you and I watch the same interview?
And that guy will be in business until he decides to sell the place and retire to Florida.

Where he will have to learn Spanish.

[sbw]

:sick: Do you honestly think he's helping people by refusing to recognize any other language when a cheesesteak is being ordered? The only English it's going to force on people who don't speak English is the word "cheesesteak." Spinning this as tough altruism is just ridiculous, and frankly, insulting to my intelligence. He can say it if he wants, but don't try to paint a veritable slap in the face as a hand of friendship and helpfulness.

mentions of altruism are almost always an insult to my intelligence.

Scott

[sbw]

I don't have a "big problem with warranted human behavior," I just don't tolerate Assholery.

anyone who doesn't 'tolerate assholery' (I like that word, btw--I use it all the time) is GUARANTEED to have a 'big problem with warranted human behavior.'

Scott

[cryingmime]

WHY CAN'T PEOPLE SPELL "A LOT"!! IT'S NOT ONE WORD!!!


I think we should put up a header "only correctly spelled posts allowed in here" and provide a link to strunk & white and M-W.com

seriously, though...this is why Philadelphia is a shithole that i hope to never go to again. City of brotherly love my ass....it's the city of filth and backhair...tht's what i say. I would rather go to Cincinnati than to Philadelphia.

r

[omnirook]

I think we should put up a header "only correctly spelled posts allowed in here" and provide a link to strunk & white and M-W.com

seriously, though...this is why Philadelphia is a shithole that i hope to never go to again. City of brotherly love my ass....it's the city of filth and backhair...tht's what i say. I would rather go to Cincinnati than to Philadelphia.

r
Cincinnati - it's cute ... eh ... New Orleans - now there was a great city! When Halliburten is done down there, well, it'll be New York City all over again - a wonderful place turned into a corporate themepark, where (mostly white) automatons can push their progeny about in their ergonomically correct strollers while ritually swigging "pure water" from plastic bottles ...

I depise yuppies! ... Yuck! ... I left the city of my birth (New York) to get away from them. They make me SICK. Whiney and spoiled and demanding. Creatures of the herd to the core. A few seasons ago, it became fashion to wear these faux bomber hats - copies of old-fashioned pilot's helmets, made from anything but leather. As the weeks passed, it got to where there wasn't a yuppie in New York who wasn't wearing one. The side-flaps kept getting longer and longer and longer. Right before the fad died, I saw that one woman was wearing one of these atrocities w/flaps so long that they hung below her knees ... Now it's warm. We're all showing off the results of the winter in the gym. The women are pretty - or could be, if they put on some weight* - until you remember that they are yuppies. All of them w/ankle bracelets, wearing flip-flops, trudging about w/their big bags, stopping at every corner to display w/their water bottles - sip, sip, sip ... YUCK!!!

*Call me a pig - but I like women to be ROUND - plump - soft, warm ... not looking like a teen-aged boy w/tiny breasts!

[ApeTheDog]

He could also put up a sign that goes: "please order your food in english" you know. Why doesn't he? It would be equally effective in relaying his message, and wouldn't be considered insulting to them. But perhaps he gets a kick out of doing the whole patriotism thing.

[kendoiwan]

I love how out of touch you guys are... this is quite simple... WASP's are the ruling class of this country... in a few short years "hispanics" will be the majority population of the country... so you do the math immigration debates, official languages fights... same thing happening in France and England too

[Nadiar]

He probably has a lot of people trying to talk to him in Italian and order shit. It's probably really annoying when you have to sit there and say "I have no idea what you're saying." And even if the owner is completely fluent, the people he hires aren't always going to be.

I can read, and speak Spanish like a 5 year old, but that doesn't mean I order food in Spanish when I go to Taco Bell. I order in whatever language the menu is in. As long as I'm only going to places that speak a Latin language, or English, I should be fine. This is probably why I only go with my friend Troy when I go to this really awesome Korean place in town. I can't read the menu, so my interactions with the people that work there resort to pointing at the food and going "that please"



I love how out of touch you guys are... this is quite simple... WASP's are the ruling class of this country... in a few short years "hispanics" will be the majority population of the country... so you do the math immigration debates, official languages fights... same thing happening in France and England too

This is actually kind of an Urban Myth.

1st) When you're filling out the census, you can pick whatever you most identify with. I knew a lot of blond haired people that would put down "Hispanic" just because 200 years ago they had some white ancestors that lived in Mexico. There are 40 million 'hispanic' people in America, but only 19% say they speak only Spanish.
2nd) If I impregnate some Latin girl, that won't give my kids the ability to speak Spanish. Or English for that matter.

Primarily what you're looking at if you want to know what we'll be speaking in 60 years is the intergenerational language roots. 2/3 of all 3rd Generation Hispanics speak only English.

And in the state I graduated from, Spanish and English are the official languages.

edit: apparantly the state I graduated doesn't have an official language. It just publishes everything simultaneously in English and Spanish, and USED TO have them as official languages. Its state hymn is also bilingual.

[kendoiwan]

He probably has a lot of people trying to talk to him in Italian and order shit. It's probably really annoying when you have to sit there and say "I have no idea what you're saying." And even if the owner is completely fluent, the people he hires aren't always going to be.

I can read, and speak Spanish like a 5 year old, but that doesn't mean I order food in Spanish when I go to Taco Bell. I order in whatever language the menu is in. As long as I'm only going to places that speak a Latin language, or English, I should be fine. This is probably why I only go with my friend Troy when I go to this really awesome Korean place in town. I can't read the menu, so my interactions with the people that work there resort to pointing at the food and going "that please"



This is actually kind of an Urban Myth.

1st) When you're filling out the census, you can pick whatever you most identify with. I knew a lot of blond haired people that would put down "Hispanic" just because 200 years ago they had some white ancestors that lived in Mexico. There are 40 million 'hispanic' people in America, but only 19% say they speak only Spanish.
2nd) If I impregnate some Latin girl, that won't give my kids the ability to speak Spanish. Or English for that matter.

Primarily what you're looking at if you want to know what we'll be speaking in 60 years is the intergenerational language roots. 2/3 of all 3rd Generation Hispanics speak only English.

And in the state I graduated from, Spanish and English are the official languages.

edit: apparantly the state I graduated doesn't have an official language. It just publishes everything simultaneously in English and Spanish, and USED TO have them as official languages. Its state hymn is also bilingual.

so that's 760000 + 12 million illegals, plus an agenda on everyside of the issue that equals...

[Nadiar]

so that's 760000 + 12 million illegals, plus an agenda on everyside of the issue that equals...

><

I'm just saying, we're a far bit away from the entire nation needing to learn Spanish, and its not the type of thing thats going to happen over 5-10 years. When it starts to happen, you'll have PLENTY of warning that you need to go learn. I doubt any of us will live to a time where Spanish is the predominate language of the United States.

I'm not ruling it out though.


Also, I'm generally considered on the 'right' of the political spectrum, but I don't think we can make judgements on whether the United States will be around in 75-100 years in its current form.

[kendoiwan]

><

I'm just saying, we're a far bit away from the entire nation needing to learn Spanish, and its not the type of thing thats going to happen over 5-10 years. When it starts to happen, you'll have PLENTY of warning that you need to go learn. I doubt any of us will live to a time where Spanish is the predominate language of the United States.

I'm not ruling it out though.


Also, I'm generally considered on the 'right' of the political spectrum, but I don't think we can make judgements on whether the United States will be around in 75-100 years in its current form.

Yeah but the whole thing is symbolic, which is what SJ's respond to and live for... making sure they KNOW whose country it is and their role in it...

Uppity Spics:ph34r:

[cafe]

I've always wanted to learn Spanish. Maybe my opportunity for immersion will come to me. My family would be unwilling to go to it.

[jittus rye]

just kill everyone, those mother fuckers. Everyone who violates any law dies. NOW! We need to spend at least 50% of the national budget and 30 trillion in debt exterminating these illegals.

[sbw]

Uppity Spics:ph34r:

hahahahahahahahahaha

Scott

[Nemesis]

I've always wanted to learn Spanish. Maybe my opportunity for immersion will come to me. My family would be unwilling to go to it.
This might just be a NY Metropolitan's biased prejudiced view of the midwest, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you will come by much oppurtunity in the midwest, specifically depending upon how far you are between Chicago and the Gulf Coast.

[INThoughtPolice]

This is America. Order your food in English.So someone that can't order food in English is supposed to be able to read the sign. lol.

[Nemesis]

So someone that can't order food in English is supposed to be able to read the sign. lol.
If you wanted to make a point that only English would be tolerated, would you be sure to post it in languages other than English?

[INThoughtPolice]

If you wanted to make a point that only English would be tolerated, would you be sure to post it in languages other than English?
Yeah, exactly.

[Nemesis]

Yeah, exactly.
Really. So if you're trying to make a point that languages other than English are NOT spoken in the United States, you would post signs in other languages?

[INThoughtPolice]

Really. So if you're trying to make a point that languages other than English are NOT spoken in the United States, you would post signs in other languages?
Or don't and make the point to yourself and those that would normally order in English anyway.

The United States has no official language (although it might soon). Languages other than English are spoken within our country.

[cafe]

This might just be a NY Metropolitan's biased prejudiced view of the midwest, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you will come by much oppurtunity in the midwest, specifically depending upon how far you are between Chicago and the Gulf Coast.
But I thought the whole country would be speaking Spanish in the not-too-distant future. Or will I be dead by then?

[Rhu]

"Whiz wit'", probably the most common way you'll hear a cheesesteak ordered, isn't English anyway. I'm pretty sure Pat's recognized this long ago and that's why there has always, in my memory, been a sign with a short language lesson on how to speak proper Cheesesteakese.

[libertarianjim]

An update, via Drudge:

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsarticle.aspx?type=domesticNews&storyid=2006-06-12T222917Z_01_N12312679_RTRUKOC_0_US-LIFE-ENGLISH.xml&src=rss&rpc=22

Short version: The Philadelphia Commission on Human Relations is investigating whether Geno's is violating the city Fair Practices Ordinance, and if they determine that he has, and he refuses to remove the sign, the restaurant will be fined $300.

[Nemesis]

But I thought the whole country would be speaking Spanish in the not-too-distant future. Or will I be dead by then?
LOL. You don't by any chance watch FOX News do you?

[Nemesis]

Or don't and make the point to yourself and those that would normally order in English anyway.

The United States has no official language (although it might soon). Languages other than English are spoken within our country.
Jesus Christ, you so don't get it. Just forget it. Please move along.

[cafe]

LOL. You don't by any chance watch FOX News do you?
Um. No. I don't watch the news on TV. What news I catch is usually some headline on Yahoo that caught my eye. Stuff about animals, biology, and social sciences most of the time. My comment was in referrence to kendoiwan's posts.

You don't by any chance like to jump to conclusions, do you?

[Nemesis]

You don't by any chance like to jump to conclusions, do you?
As hard as I try not to be, I am 17. Of course I do :)

The point was that we won't be speaking Spanish in a few short decades. That's mostly hype that xenophobes make up to get people scared of immigrants.

[cafe]

As hard as I try not to be, I am 17. Of course I do :)

The point was that we won't be speaking Spanish in a few short decades. That's mostly hype that xenophobes make up to get people scared of immigrants.
It would seem impractical that we would, but what do I know? Right now English is something like the equivalent to Greek in the Roman Empire, so it seems to me that it would take awhile for that to change. When it does change, it might well be to Mandarin or Hindi or something.