100 Facts and 1 Opinion

[file cabinet]

100 Facts and 1 Opinion: The Non-Arguable Case Against the Bush
http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20041108&s=facts

found that interesting.. has there ever been such opposition to a president? if so, what other presidents have been this 'bad' for our country?

[Division56]

I ♥ The Nation.

[sbw]

FDR was the worst president in the history of the united states...but there is a case to be made that dubya is the second-worst.

Scott

[file cabinet]

FDR was the worst president in the history of the united states...but there is a case to be made that dubya is the second-worst.

Scott

what did FDR do? (I'm not knowledgeable of US history)

[Werdna]

Ok, Bush is bad, but what about Nixon?

Yes, that's right. He's dead.

Historians vs. Bush
http://hnn.us/articles/5019.html

[SheepDog]

Bush is the man...
http://pages.sbcglobal.net/bommer/When_The_Man_Comes_Around.html

[Nighthawk]

FDR was the worst president in the history of the united states...but there is a case to be made that dubya is the second-worst.

Scott

what did FDR do? (I'm not knowledgeable of US history)

Well, for one thing, Roosevelt originated the problem of an out of control national debt. It had always been manageable before he sent it skyrocketing with WW2 and excessive social programs. His "New Deal" was also the start of the socialist welfare state that America has become. Which begs the question, are we really a democracy at all? Amazingly he was elected to 4 terms ... after which an amendment was passed limiting a president to 2 terms.

Higher and higher taxes, with more and more people getting handouts. I wonder if we have reached a point where half of the population is working to pay taxes for the entitlements that the other half of the population receives. Could explain the roughly 50-50 divide across the nation. I know my taxes have been getting higher and higher ... and I seem to be getting less and less in exchange. Roughly 45% of what I make goes back to the government in taxes. Conversely, I see plenty of the same people every day sitting on their asses downtown with nothing to do except pick up their welfare checks for the 12 illegitimate children they created with 10 different fathers (or mothers). Hell, some of them are even my relatives. Many Americans seem to feel their government owes them a living just because they were conceived.

[booyalab]

FDR was the worst president in the history of the united states...but there is a case to be made that dubya is the second-worst.

Scott

what did FDR do? (I'm not knowledgeable of US history)

Well, for one thing, Roosevelt originated the problem of an out of control national debt. It had always been manageable before he sent it skyrocketing with WW2 and excessive social programs. His "New Deal" was also the start of the socialist welfare state that America has become. Which begs the question, are we really a democracy at all? Amazingly he was elected to 4 terms ... after which an amendment was passed limiting a president to 2 terms.

Higher and higher taxes, with more and more people getting handouts. I wonder if we have reached a point where half of the population is working to pay taxes for the entitlements that the other half of the population receives. Could explain the roughly 50-50 divide across the nation. I know my taxes have been getting higher and higher ... and I seem to be getting less and less in exchange. Roughly 45% of what I make goes back to the government in taxes. Conversely, I see plenty of the same people every day sitting on their asses downtown with nothing to do except pick up their welfare checks for the 12 illegitimate children they created with 10 different fathers (or mothers). Hell, some of them are even my relatives. Many Americans seem to feel their government owes them a living just because they were conceived.

In the neighborhood I lived for the first 11 years of my life, the mailman lived across the street, and so...(unethically) would gossip to the neighbors he was friendly with about what he knew about certain people by what they received in the mail. He told my mom about one lady who lived down the street and had like 12 children from 10 different fathers, like you mentioned. She received about 5 different welfare checks, by taking advantage of some flaw in the system, and spent the majority on drugs and alcohol. She had the nicest kids too, and they hardly saw any of that money.

[Claverhouse]

As far as malevolence is concerned, then definitely Roosevelt: however some presidents having been far stupider, that might select another as worst.

FDR not only actively sought to enter WWII, and may have in the pacific theatre deliberately provoked the Japs; but he may have been a red agent as well:

FDR Scandal (http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/fdr.html)

Some of the details of his earlier career are informative, like running an entrapment ring to catch homosexuals.

A good online book is The Roosevelt Myth (http://www.hazlitt.org/e-texts/fdrmyth/fdrmyth_The_Roosevelt_Myth.htm)

published just after the little beast's death.



Claverhouse :ph34r:


The Memory Hole has quite a bit on him.

[Groty]

Roughly 45% of what I make goes back to the government in taxes.

Heh...

At some frustrated, angry point in my life, I attempted to figure out exactly how much of my money goes to taxes. Then I started thinking about psuedo-taxes like public parking fees and parking stickers. Then I took it a step further and started getting into the taxes involved in transactions like Wholesale to Retail. Those are passed along to us. And then there's all of those funky taxes on things like cable and phone service. Ugghhhh...

Then I gave up.

I think I'm just gonna seal up that pot hole myself. The one I've been testing my alignment with for the past year. Need a new tire cause of it too, but then I have to pay all of those fun tire psuedo taxes.

I need a drink.

[SheepDog]

I need a drink.Talk about something that's overtaxed...

[Nighthawk]

He told my mom about one lady who lived down the street and had like 12 children from 10 different fathers, like you mentioned. She received about 5 different welfare checks, by taking advantage of some flaw in the system, and spent the majority on drugs and alcohol.

They have a name for people like that ... Artisans :D

[Darren]

Well, for one thing, Roosevelt originated the problem of an out of control national debt. It had always been manageable before he sent it skyrocketing with WW2 and excessive social programs. His "New Deal" was also the start of the socialist welfare state that America has become. Which begs the question, are we really a democracy at all?



Since you are concerned about the National Debt, you are no doubt a big Clinton fan (who ran a surplus) rather than a Bush fan (who seems intent on running the deficit/GDP ratio to new heights)....

Would you rather FDR sat on the sidelines in WW2? You'd have to learn the Nazi salute before taking any European vacations, then.

Do people abuse welfare? Sometimes, yes, absolutely. That's not a good argument for getting rid of it. The socialist welfare state (which the United States barely has) is actually quite a nice place to live.

[Werdna]

Do people abuse welfare? Sometimes, yes, absolutely. That's not a good argument for getting rid of it. The socialist welfare state (which the United States barely has) is actually quite a nice place to live.

As I live in it (well, pretty close anyway) I have to agree with this. Of course once I finish my college education (education is free, apartment paid for with grants and loans, and just a little help from my parents) I will have to start paying some of the highest taxes in the world. Still, I don't mind.
I agree it's better to change the system to minimize abuse than to get rid of it. The system isn't the problem, it's the people who abuse it.

[Groty]

I am not a fan of the legacy that FDR started. I see the New Deal and other things he did to be correct in the context of THAT PERIOD. He took the unemployed, starving masses, and used the manpower to create roads, bring electricity to urban areas, foster communications... basically creating a great foundation for economic growth.

Unfortunately, such radical Federal intervention became the norm. Now people look to the governement for too much.

[Claverhouse]

I am not a fan of the legacy that FDR started. I see the New Deal and other things he did to be correct in the context of THAT PERIOD. He took the unemployed, starving masses, and used the manpower to create roads, bring electricity to urban areas, foster communications... basically creating a great foundation for economic growth.

I wouldn't ever argue with that: same as the communists and fascists and nazis and royalists and revolutionaries etc. also did many admirable things with harnessing state power. Roads and stuff do need to be built. Localised power and private enterprise are too innately corrupt to achieve the broader picture.


Unfortunately, such radical Federal intervention became the norm. Now people look to the governement for too much.

Partially; but remember that the power of the state is inherently always more efficient than private enterprise.



Claverhouse :ph34r:

[Groty]

Partially; but remember that the power of the state is inherently always more efficient than private enterprise.

Claverhouse :ph34r:

But the state just turns around and gives it to private enterprise to run, at Cost + 2% contracts. Lockheed runs a lot of welfare programs, Halliburton runs, basically, the military's operational needs.

Back to Cost + 2%. A friend of mine works for a Navy contractor. As he puts it, he can "Cost" a position at $100,000 per year. That's the cost of the skillset, according to the governments standards. He can then hire an employee at $50,000 a year for that position, pocketing the difference.

Interesting...

[SheepDog]

Partially; but remember that the power of the state is inherently always more efficient than private enterprise.

Ha! I work for an organization that is technically private, but with oversight from the Fed Government. The irony in this statement is PAINFULLY obvious to me every single freakin day.

[Claverhouse]

Partially; but remember that the power of the state is inherently always more efficient than private enterprise.

Claverhouse :ph34r:

But the state just turns around and gives it to private enterprise to run, at Cost + 2% contracts. Lockheed runs a lot of welfare programs, Halliburton runs, basically, the military's operational needs.

Golly, that almost sounds as if your state had been subverted by that fine old Military-Industrial Complex Eisenhower warned against.

Na, it could never be...

:rofl:



Claverhouse :ph34r: