UK - Argentina Relations

[Hustler]

I don't care, as long as England loses.

You know, the Falkland Islands aren't even that great. Why can't you just get over it?

[Madrigal]

You know, the Falkland Islands aren't even that great. Why can't you just get over it?
Yeah, they could be great if they existed, too bad they're called Malvinas.

[Ferrus]

Yeah, they could be great if they existed, too bad they're called Malvinas.
I thought the people that live somewhere get naming rights?

But then again making decisions democratically has never been too popular in Argentina I suppose.

[Madrigal]

I thought the people that live somewhere get naming rights?

But then again making decisions democratically has never been too popular in Argentina I suppose.
This coming from a royal subject. lol

[Ferrus]

This coming from a royal subject. lol
Because clearly the Queen rules as a tyrant, infringing other countries sovereignty simply to avoid a coup attempt at home and then didn't even have the Germans' ability to put up a fight.

N.B. Before anyone gets the wrong idea I am joking here. I am in no way condoning supporting your country or patriotism, what I am supporting however is taking the piss out of those that do.

[Madrigal]

Because clearly the Queen rules as a tyrant, infringing other countries sovereignty simply to avoid a coup attempt at home and then didn't even have the Germans' ability to put up a fight.
Let's not fight, Ferrus. I think we have a few things in common actually. Our leaders massacred 30,000 people to fulfill a geopolitical plan masterminded by the US, and your lap-dog of a Prime Minister is helping massacre iraquis for the same reason.

So if you're going to identify a people with their rulers, start with your own decadence of an Empire or STFU.

Oh and,


http://www.intpcentral.com/uploads/mexico86.jpg.

[Ferrus]

So if you're going to identify a people with their rulers, start with your own decadence of an Empire or STFU
I think "empire" is a bit generous to be honest.

Besides as a nihlist I couldn't care about some stupid cup other than to enjoy seeing people get worked up and then miserable because they get kicked out.

I do enjoy analysing the strategy of each team however because I'm a geek like that.

[zhang_bob]

Let's not fight, Ferrus. I think we have a few things in common actually. Our leaders massacred 30,000 people to fulfill a geopolitical plan masterminded by the US, and your lap-dog of a Prime Minister is helping massacre iraquis for the same reason.
What the hell does that have to do with football?

[Ferrus]

What the hell does that have to do with football?
Dead Iraqis are related to everything to lefties. ;)

Anyway to be fair it was Hustler's fault. We should lynch him.

[zhang_bob]

Well to be fair it was Hustler's fault. We should lynch him.Ok, but she just pisses me off because she is a hypocrite.

http://www.intpcentral.com/uploads/The_Sun_Gotcha.jpg

[Ferrus]

Where's the "Argie Bargie" cover?

[kendoiwan]

:offtopic: Fuck all that nonsense... they don't like us, we don't like them and us playing nice won't make them all of a sudden play nice with us... All out warfare, for as long as it takes winner takes all:offtopic:

[coffeezombie]

Moved posts to World.

[Madrigal]

And yes you're right Ferrus, it's not surprising the left are obsessed with dead Iraqis

:joft:

Tell me what these dictators have in common and I'll tell you why I'm not obsessed with Iraquis in particular.

Abacha, General Sani - Nigeria
Amin, Idi - Uganda
Banzer, Colonel Hugo - Bolivia
Batista, Fulgencio - Cuba
Bolkiah, Sir Hassanal - Brunei
Botha, P.W. - South Africa
Branco, General Humberto - Brazil
Cedras, Raoul - Haiti
Cerezo, Vinicio - Guatemala
Chiang Kai-Shek - Taiwan
Cordova, Roberto Suazo - Honduras
Christiani, Alfredo - El Salvador
Diem, Ngo Dihn - Vietnam
Doe, General Samuel - Liberia
Duvalier, Francois - Haiti
Duvalier, Jean Claude - Haiti
Fahd bin'Abdul-'Aziz, - King Saudi Arabia
Franco, General Francisco - Spain
Hitler, Adolf - Germany
Hassan II - Morocco
Marcos, Ferdinand - Philippines
Martinez, General Maximiliano Hernandez - El Salvador
Mobutu Sese Seko - Zaire
Montt, General Efrain Rios - Guatemala
Noriega, General Manuel - Panama
Ozal, Turgut - Turkey
Pahlevi, Shah Mohammed Reza - Iran
Papadopoulos, George - Greece
Park Chung Hee - South Korea
Pinochet, General Augusto - Chile
Pol Pot - Cambodia
Rabuka, General Sitiveni - Fiji
Montt, General Efrain Rios - Guatemala
Salassie, Halie - Ethiopia
Salazar, Antonio de Oliveira - Portugal
Somoza, Anastasio Jr. - Nicaragua
Somoza, Anastasio, Sr. - Nicaragua
Smith, Ian - Rhodesia
Stroessner, Alfredo - Paraguay
Suharto, General - Indonesia
Trujillo, Rafael Leonidas - Dominican Republic
Videla, General Jorge Rafael - Argentina
Zia Ul-Haq, Mohammed - Pakistan

[Ferrus]

To be fair they were the strong people. The ones who had power and used it. Morality is the non-existent supporter of the weak.

[demagogic_schizoid]

Madrigal, good to see you. Why are you so angry all the time? Won't you answer my PM? I think it's a shame.

And by the way everyone, Argentina is an amazing country with great people. And most of them are not militant leftists. Madrigal is ok really, just sadly views the world from a skewed perspective that comes from living far away in the south where relation with foreigners is minimal.

Madrigal, I promise you, if you spent 5 years in London you would abandon your ways.

As always

Tim

[Ferrus]

Why are you so angry all the time?
The grinding poverty of her tin pot country does that too you. Joke ;)

[demagogic_schizoid]

Ferrus, I don't get offended by anything. My mum is from Argentina, and it's actually pretty advanced. I'm putting a word in here because I feel I should, not because I'm arsed either way, personally when arguing I say anything to cause offence. So erm, just let it be noted that I said this, now carry on as before. ;)

[demagogic_schizoid]

Seriously though I'm surprised by how many INTP's, who after all are supposed to be RATIONAL, become lefties. I expected a few but I admit but not as many as I have encountered. Still, the fact they are on this forum gives me hope that they can be salvaged.

[coffeezombie]

Seriously though I'm surprised by how many INTP's, who after all are supposed to be RATIONAL, become lefties. I expected a few but I admit but not as many as I have encountered. Still, the fact they are on this forum gives me hope that they can be salvaged.
What about the leftist idea that all humans deserve to have the basic neccessities to live without suffering is irrational?

[Ferrus]

What amazes me is that she claims to be a Marxist and yet gets so worked up over a minor territorial dispute.

[Ferrus]

What about the leftist idea that all humans deserve to have the basic neccessities to live without suffering is irrational?
Yeah but to be fair you can't say it is rationally more an instinctive, it's more an emotional response in my opinion. Which doesn't mean it is irrational.

[demagogic_schizoid]

What about the leftist idea that all humans deserve to have the basic neccessities to live without suffering is irrational?

Of course, countries which have chosen alternatives to capitalism have a much better record at providing their citizens with the "basic neccessities" than those decadent imperialists in the west, don't they?

[Hustler]

And by the way everyone, Argentina is an amazing country with great people. And most of them are not militant leftists.

Aren't the militant capitalist opportunists a bigger threat? You know, like the crew who attempted to kidnap an associate of mine at gunpoint. What makes Argentina so amazing and what makes the people there so great?

[demagogic_schizoid]

Aren't the militant capitalist opportunists a bigger threat? You know, like the crew who attempted to kidnap an associate of mine at gunpoint. What makes Argentina so amazing and what makes the people there so great?

Well I go there, and I get laid. In England, that doesn't happen much.

[coffeezombie]

Yeah but to be fair you can't say it is rationally more an instinctive, it's more an emotional response in my opinion. Which doesn't mean it is irrational.
No, but I do think that it is rational that everyone at least deserves an equal opportunity to succeed, which is not how right-wingers usually act. For instance, in the US, not all school districts are equal. Does the fact that your mother and father are poor mean that you do not deserve to go to the best private schools as well?

[Ferrus]

Well I go there, and I get laid. In England, that doesn't happen much.
If I go there and I get laid (by a female I may add) I promise to rescind all my comments about Argentina and the girly men that defend it. ;)

[Hustler]

Well I go there, and I get laid. In England, that doesn't happen much.

Why can't you get laid in England? This sounds more like a personal problem for you than some sort of credit to Argentina.

[Ferrus]

Does the fact that your mother and father are poor mean that you do not deserve to go to the best private schools as well?
Well it depends... you could argue that only self interest is rational, therefore it is rational for the rich to block the poor from good education.

[demagogic_schizoid]

No, but I do think that it is rational that everyone at least deserves an equal opportunity to succeed, which is not how right-wingers usually act. For instance, in the US, not all school districts are equal.

Well when I talk about the left I mean the hard left, not centrists who swing to the left on some issues.

[demagogic_schizoid]

Why can't you get laid in England? This sounds more like a personal problem for you than some sort of credit to Argentina.

Well I think it's a credit, their women see how attractive and brilliant I am, whilst far too many English girls don't. Therefore, they are superior. and no, it'snot my problem, it's the worlds problem. I'm great just as I am. :)

Or to be less frivolous and slightly more detailed (but not much) I simply like a much higher proportion of Argentines I know than English people, and more of them like me. I could give you a detailed account of my experiences there, but frankly I don't feel it like and I doubt you want to read it.

I have written a lot about Argentina, but I'm not going to track it down now, copy and paste it and edit it to make sense to this particular debate, and explain the many things which will need explaining. Perhaops one day I will if the situation demands it.

[zhang_bob]

Tell me what these dictators have in common .

Abacha, General Sani - Nigeria
Amin, Idi - Uganda
Banzer, Colonel Hugo - Bolivia
Batista, Fulgencio - Cuba
Bolkiah, Sir Hassanal - Brunei
Botha, P.W. - South Africa
Branco, General Humberto - Brazil
Cedras, Raoul - Haiti
Cerezo, Vinicio - Guatemala
Chiang Kai-Shek - Taiwan
Cordova, Roberto Suazo - Honduras
Christiani, Alfredo - El Salvador
Diem, Ngo Dihn - Vietnam
Doe, General Samuel - Liberia
Duvalier, Francois - Haiti
Duvalier, Jean Claude - Haiti
Fahd bin'Abdul-'Aziz, - King Saudi Arabia
Franco, General Francisco - Spain
Hitler, Adolf - Germany
Hassan II - Morocco
Marcos, Ferdinand - Philippines
Martinez, General Maximiliano Hernandez - El Salvador
Mobutu Sese Seko - Zaire
Montt, General Efrain Rios - Guatemala
Noriega, General Manuel - Panama
Ozal, Turgut - Turkey
Pahlevi, Shah Mohammed Reza - Iran
Papadopoulos, George - Greece
Park Chung Hee - South Korea
Pinochet, General Augusto - Chile
Pol Pot - Cambodia
Rabuka, General Sitiveni - Fiji
Montt, General Efrain Rios - Guatemala
Salassie, Halie - Ethiopia
Salazar, Antonio de Oliveira - Portugal
Somoza, Anastasio Jr. - Nicaragua
Somoza, Anastasio, Sr. - Nicaragua
Smith, Ian - Rhodesia
Stroessner, Alfredo - Paraguay
Suharto, General - Indonesia
Trujillo, Rafael Leonidas - Dominican Republic
Videla, General Jorge Rafael - Argentina
Zia Ul-Haq, Mohammed - Pakistan

They all had the same moral system.



Well I think it's a credit, their women see how attractive and brilliant I am, whilst far too many English girls don't. Therefore, they are superior. and no, it's not my problem, it's the worlds problem. I'm great just as I am. :)
Seem like it is your problem because it is not mine.

[Hustler]

I have written a lot about Argentina, but I'm not going to track it down now, copy and paste it and edit it to make sense to this particular debate, and explain the many things which will need explaining. Perhaops one day I will if the situation demands it.

I see you don't work for the Argentina Board of Tourism, because you're doing a mighty shitty job of promoting the so-called greatness of this land and its people. But, anyway, congratulations on getting a bunch of Argentine women in the sack. Did you have kids by one or more of them yet?

[demagogic_schizoid]

Why thankyou for the congratulations Hustler, they are most appreciated. As for your remarks regarding my failure to make you fall in love with the country, well it must have escaped your noticed that I wasn't actually attempting to do so. Still, If you ever get bored of Asian Babes you know where to go.

all the best

Tim

[Ferrus]

I doubt you want to read it.
Oh I do, I'm finding it hard to get to sleep tonight.

[Hustler]

Why thankyou for the congratulations Hustler, they are most appreciated. As for your remarks regarding my failure to make you fall in love with the country, well it must have escaped your noticed that I wasn't actually attempting to do so. Still, If you ever get bored of Asian Babes you know where to go.

Down the street? 25% of the people in this city are Latino. And most of those are Mexicans, and everyone knows that Mexicans > Argentines.

[demagogic_schizoid]

http://www.pampitacarolina.com.ar/index2.html

Not really my type, but this should keep the riff raff happy: Argentina's Jordan (but unlike Jordan not repulsive)

Ok let's be honest, I still would and you know you would too.

Happy now Hustler? If not, what does it take to make a man like you happy? Intellectual stimulation? Sorry, you should have caught me last night. I'm chilled out tonight, so wanking material will have to suffice.

[demagogic_schizoid]

Down the street? 25% of the people in this city are Latino. And most of those are Mexicans, and everyone knows that Mexicans > Argentines.


Yes, Mexico City is really culturally superior to Buenos Aires, the Paris of the South, isn't it?:wtf:

You are obviously not very well travelled.

[Hustler]

http://www.pampitacarolina.com.ar/index2.html

Not really my type, but this should keep the riff raff happy: Argentina's Jordan (but unlike Jordan not repulsive)

Ok let's be honest, I still would and you know you would too.

Happy now Hustler? If not, what does it take to make a man like you happy? Intellectual stimulation? Sorry, you should have caught me last night. I'm chilled out tonight, so wanking material will have to suffice.

Is that one of the girls you nailed down in Argentina? If so, good work. If not, perhaps you could explain why you're attempting to sell me on Argentina's greatness via pictures of some hot girl. Aren't you aware that every country on the planet has hot girls*? I am all for getting sold on a place like Argentina and doing it a huge favor by moving there, but things like crime rate, convenience, culture, and income tax rates are bigger concerns.

*Except Canada, of course.

[Hustler]

Yes, Mexico City is really culturally superior to Buenos Aires, the Paris of the South, isn't it?:wtf:

You are obviously not very well travelled.

Mexico City and Buenos Aires aren't all that different when it comes to the ratio of tourist offerings to tourist pitfalls.

[demagogic_schizoid]

Is that one of the girls you nailed down in Argentina? If so, good work. If not, perhaps you could explain why you're attempting to sell me on Argentina's greatness via pictures of some hot girl. Aren't you aware that every country on the planet has hot girls*?

I disagree. For one thing, I have never found a black woman attractive. Am I racist for saying this? Of course not. Unless of course it's racist to say that pale people aren't attractive. I have nothing against black women at all, I just don't find them physically attractive. I think oriental women are vastly overrated as well, and while some Indian girls in England are hot, I personally wouldn't shag a Middle Eastern peasant, or in fact any peasant, which instantly rules out the majority of the world's population. Argentina doesn't have peasants (well maybe a tiny number in the north), plus they have a lot of Italian and Spanish blood, therefore I find the women extremely nailable, much more so than English or american girls, and more so than any nordic country.

Also, the idea of the link was to provide you with a taster. I can't physically show you every Argentine girld on the internet, can I? Similairly, if I show a picture of a tourist attraction, you might as well say that this too is unrepresentative of the country as a whole.

[QUOTE=Hustler]I am all for getting sold on a place like Argentina and doing it a huge favor by moving there, but things like crime rate, convenience, culture, and income tax rates are bigger concerns.
[/size]

And what do I stand from this little exercise in ego-massaging exactly? Do your own research FFS. I simply said I loved Argentina, I never said you should.

[Ferrus]

Any back to the Falklands war as it is such a fun topic.

Especially the bit where they lose.

[Hustler]

So then that's not one of the girls you bagged. Disappointing. Alright, let me just ask you this, why do you live in England if you like Argentina so much? Apparently, you like England so much more than Argentina, that you're willing to live there even though you can't get laid there. And that's not even delving into the shitty weather and crooked teeth.

By the way, before you go attacking the Middle East, you should realize that the PPP per capita in the UAE is about double that in Argentina. How many peasants do you expect to find in a country which is has more per capita wealth than Spain, Greece or New Zealand? You could just say you don't find Middle-Eastern women attractive and leave it at that.

[Hustler]

Any back to the Falklands war as it is such a fun topic.

Especially the bit where they lose.

Who cares? So you took some insignificant islands from some third-worlders. Congratulations. The real question is why is Ireland so much better than the United Kingdom? How did that come to pass?

[Conan]

The demographics of Argentina are completely different from Mexico (and most of Latin America). 97% of Argentinians are of European descent, the number of Argentines of indigenous descent is almost insignificant. 80% of the population are natives of Spain and Italy, with significant numbers from Germany (from where many fled after world war ii), Russia, and Portugal.

If you've been to any of these European countries, you would probably agree that the hotness of their women is world class. Ive been to Argentina several times and can honestly say they have the most incredible blend (not to mention quantity) of breathtaking women I have ever seen.

[Ferrus]

The real question is why is Ireland so much better than the United Kingdom?
According to whom?

If you mean economically, it's because of generous economic benefits from the EU that has helped them.

Both Ireland and the UK are a lot better economically than they were in the 1970's in any case.

[Hustler]

According to whom?

If you mean economically, it's because of generous economic benefits from the EU that has helped them.

Is that it, or is it just because the Irish are superior to the English?

[Ferrus]

Is that it, or is it just because the Irish are superior to the English?
They're Catholic though... it's a papist conspiracy, clearly.

Plus they still haven't got the top part of the island, heh.

[Hustler]

The demographics of Argentina are completely different from Mexico (and most of Latin America). 97% of Argentinians are of European descent, the number of Argentines of indigenous descent is almost insignificant. 80% of the population are natives of Spain and Italy, with significant numbers from Germany (from where many fled after world war ii), Russia, and Portugal.

Thanks for the valuable input on something every last person on this forum already knew.


If you've been to any of these European countries, you would probably agree that the hotness of their women is world class. Ive been to Argentina several times and can honestly say they have the most incredible blend (not to mention quantity) of breathtaking women I have ever seen.

When did you get out of the joint?

[Ferrus]

If you've been to any of these European countries, you would probably agree that the hotness of their women is world class. Russia?

[demagogic_schizoid]

So then that's not one of the girls you bagged. Disappointing. Alright, let me just ask you this, why do you live in England if you like Argentina so much? Apparently, you like England so much more than Argentina, that you're willing to live there even though you can't get laid there. And that's not even delving into the shitty weather and crooked teeth.

By the way, before you go attacking the Middle East, you should realize that the PPP per capita in the UAE is about double that in Argentina. How many peasants do you expect to find in a country which is has more per capita wealth than Spain, Greece or New Zealand? You could just say you don't find Middle-Eastern women attractive and leave it at that.

Hustler, England has a better economy than Argentina because it has a healthier society and better government. The culture is one of liberty, respect for the law, and prudence. Argentina has none of this. These aren't reasons not to love it. They are reasons to become frustrated with it, to argue constantly with it's assumptions and to point out it's many flaws, which I do constantly on many Argentine blogs. However, as a personal choice, I prefer the Argentine people on a one-one basis. I only have 3 friends in England, in Argentina I have lots. In England I don't want any more friends, in Argentina, I do. Not to the point of extroversion, but to the point of remaining slightly schizoid but with the ability to indulge in a little demagoguery.

Also, I am 19, I still want to graduate (I am currently working) - I am going to study LatAm studies and spend a year in Argentina. After that, who knows, but economically it wouldn't make sense to go to Argentina.

Furthermore, RE your sterling defence of the Middle East - PPP per capita doesn't mean much when the wealth is concentrated almost exclusively in the hands of the country's ruling family and expats. Most of the natives are illiterate unwashed peasants, the women are not allowed to vote, and they have absolutely no freedom whatsoever. You can say what you like about Argentina, but the fact remains that whatever the flaws of this beautiful country, it in no way compares to the cancer that is the Arab world.

[Conan]

Thanks for the valuable input on something every last person on this forum already knew.



When did you get out of the joint?

I had a hard pinpointing what the argument was about but I thought Id make sure this point was clear just in case.

Im not sure, but no more than a few days ago.

[Hustler]

They're Catholic though... it's a papist conspiracy, clearly.

Plus they still haven't got the top part of the island, heh.

You mean the part with fewer natural resources, an inferior climate, Bushmills instead of Jameson, and a bunch of stodgy, uptight protestants. Yeah, big loss.

[Conan]

Stop me if Im making another obvious point, but the root problem with Argentina is its culture of corruption, selfinterest, vanity, arrogance, irresponsibility, martyrdom... did I mention corruption? and it starts with its government.

[zhang_bob]

Is that it, or is it just because the Irish are superior to the English?Is that why they get in their caravans and move to the U.k ?

[Ferrus]

You mean the part with fewer natural resources, an inferior climate, Bushmills instead of Jameson, and a bunch of stodgy, uptight protestants. Yeah, big loss.
Yeah but the north has terrorists. Who are by popular consent the greatest people in the world, behind superheroes.

Stop me if Im making another obvious point, but the root problem with Argentina is a culture of corruption, selfishness, vanity, arrogance, laziness... Theres no innocence among the Argentines.
Seems a problem with most south american/mediterrean countries really...

[demagogic_schizoid]

Stop me if Im making another obvious point, but the root problem with Argentina is a culture of corruption, selfishness, vanity, arrogance, laziness... Theres no innocence among the Argentines.

Simplistic but vaguely correct, except for the laziness part. They are actually very hard working.

[demagogic_schizoid]

Is that why they get in their caravans and move to the U.k ?

Oh don't get me started. Well you have. What I don't understand is WHY does everyone keep saying we have to find land for them to live on? Why should we respect their lifestyle choice? Pikeys are human detritus, one and all, it should be made clear to them that they do not have the right to tresspass on anyone's land simply because they can't afford to buy a plot of land of their own. We are under no obligation to accomodate their personal preferences. If they can't find anywhere to park their pikey wagons then the dirty bar stewards should buy a house of bugger off back to Ireland. And no, DON'T GIVE THEM COUNCIL HOUSES. That would simply encourage them.

[Hustler]

Furthermore, RE your sterling defence of the Middle East - PPP per capita doesn't mean much when the wealth is concentrated almost exclusively in the hands of the country's ruling family and expats. Most of the natives are illiterate unwashed peasants, the women are not allowed to vote, and they have absolutely no freedom whatsoever. You can say what you like about Argentina, but the fact remains that whatever the flaws of this beautiful country, it in no way compares to the cancer that is the Arab world.

You seem to have the UAE confused with its more backwards neighbors. Every national there (native born Arabs) probably receives more in oil profits in a year than the average Argentine earns. Those not included in this group are immigrants who moved there despite full knowledge that they would not be getting a piece of the pie (directly, anyway). I guess it beats living in Libya or Sudan or Egypt or Pakistan or wherever else they came from. So, yes, you're right that half of the population is far richer than the other half. But I wonder what the concentration of wealth in Argentina looks like. How much of the total wealth in the country is in the hands of the wealthiest 20%? You're the LatAm studies major, so perhaps you know this.

[Ferrus]

Well I think we should make them pay tax. That would make them all run to the Falkland Isles, so that it becomes Irish and they hand it over to Argentina.

[Hustler]

Is that why they get in their caravans and move to the U.k ?

They're just stopping by to bomb the place then run down to the pub, get drunk, and beat up on the locals in some barfights. They'll be on their merry way in no time.

[demagogic_schizoid]

OK, here is an essay I wrote regarding Argentina's problems, fromt he perspective of an Argentine living in England (my mother, basically). All the examples are taken from real life, but I put them together to crystalise the experience in one person.

Yes Hustler I called your bluff. You better read it now, or you will prove you are simply a cantankerous time-waster.

It's a very tough question. Argentina has been blessed with natural resources, an educated population, a liberal, sophisticated society etc. The people are very intelligent, very hospitable, if you go there and meet the people (especially the women) you will have the time of your life. What is so fascinating to many people is how Argentines are so similair yet so different. We dress like westerners. We watch the same films. We know the same music. We have the same technology. We are even light skinned like Europeans.

Another fascinating thing is how a country with so much going for it should have failed so badly. The answer is that despite all our advantages, we have some terrible, interlinked flaws at the core of our society. For one thing, the individual is not respected. It's interesting that you talk about the British being NIMBY's, because this is actually part of their strength. When much of the world had caved in to the Nazis, the British literally said "not in my back yard". I have always believed that tyranny is defeated locally in small battles, a phone mast here, a new road there, defeat these mundane things and you can bring down the whole programme. The British have always been prepared to defend their rights, their property, their football club (ie AFC Wimbled, FC United, this would never happen in Argentina), their family - in Argentina, however, respect for the individual isn't central to our society. In Britain, however much you complain about the bureaucracy, they actually often respond to your complaints - the police don't want to arrest the wrong man, the government doesn't want to overtax you, etc. etc. - at least to an extent. They feel some sense of duty to the citizens, and when they ignore this they are aware they are doing it, however much of a bastard they may be. In Argentina, however, try filing a complaint for wrongful arrest, try getting a tax rebate - it won't happen, their atttiude will be to treat you like a criminal for wasting their time and to take offence that you dare stand up to the state. Of course, people complain about this culture when they are victims, but the "general public" is more than happy to perpetuate this culture against others - for example, try expressing an unpopular opinion (ie a pro British or American opinion) in a room full of Argentines - more often than not, you will be treated like a traitor and made to feel intimidated. This is something that you just don't get in Britain, because in Britian people generally accept that there will be differences of opinion, but in collectivist Argentina there are certain opinions which are correct, and anyone deviating from this is wrong. When Argentines ask me if I feel discriminated against in Britain, I say "never, and certainly not as much as in Argentina". In Argentina for example, shop assistants, bureaucrats, policemen, people in the street, take one look at you and if they don't like you, you can go to hell. They think they have the right to make their judgement on everyone that walks past, and decide whether to arrest them, or not serve them, or simply give them a dirty look. In Britain you have the fundamental belief that how someone dresses is their own business, that if you work in a shop you are there to serve the customer, if they are walking down the street, then you walk past them and keep to yourself - Argentina isn't like that. Sometimes the English can seem very cold and uniterested, but on the plus side you don't feel pressured to act in a certain way.

Now I think part of this collectivism stems from people's belief in their own helplessnes - a result, or cause (I'm not sure yet) of Argentine "victim culture". You see, the way history is taught, the way it is viewed, the way people feel, is that the Argentine public have been innocent victims of their own history, and will be innocent victims of our own future. Now victimhood can give you a nice warm feeling of solidarity for a time, but it is also a lie, and worse, a self-fulfilling prophecy. Because people think there is nothing they can do, that there will always be starving kids, corruption, a general sense of decline, they just say "hey that's the way Argentina is, love it or leave it, all the world is the same, who are they to lecture us?" - or on the other hand "this country is a failure, these people are idiots, let's just make sarcastic jokes about it and criticise everything". Nobody takes a positive attitude to improve things, and everyone is waiting for a great leader to come and solve everything - hence the personality cult politics we have. In Britain, people know what they want, and choose and kick out politicians reasonably dispassionately. In Argentina, they wait for the latest saviour to come along, do what they are told, hound out anyone who disagrees, and then turn on them when invariably they lead the country into recession. Under Kirchner, the exact same thing is happening. Conversely, opponents of this style of politics have no faith in anything better, so just let it happen, or support some other "saviour".

Now, let's take this victimhood thing a step further. Deep, deep down, there is a belief that Latinos are the loveable, naughty but goodhearted, blameless victims, while the British and Americans are bastards. Now, people love English visitors, they don't have anything against English people, but deep down, often subconsciously, they see the anglo-saxon world as the all-powerful oppressor, no better than us, just more evil, which is how they got rich. I was the same - this lie is reinforced everywhere you look, with blatant lies on every news story. Now, I don't expect anyone here supports the Iraq war, but in Argentina, I have observed (when I go there on holiday) there has been no debate whatsoever. The pople believe that Bush is openly boasting about taking Iraq's oil and killing the people who he believes are all terrorists - ie they believe it is open, proud empire building no different to Nazism. Whatever your opinion, it is clearly unhealthy to misrepresent the position of an entire nation, consistently and deliberately, and allow no debate in any of the mainstream media.

However I don't want to paint a picture which might leave you feeling like you would face xenophobia as a visitor to Argentina, such as a German might face in Britain - it isn't like that at all. the only way I can describe it is that Argentines have an obsessionw ith the British, a true love/hate relationship. Britain used to own much of Argentina, and to many Argentines the English were the real colonial overlords for the alst 100 years (the Spanish, who stayed pretty much out of the country after giving it independence, are not seen in this way at all). Britain is seen much as some people might see a rich, famous, glamorous neighbour - a sort of gossipping - for example, even such trivial things as Pete Doherty and Kate Moss breaking up make the news in Argentina. Also, Rolling Stones are the number 1 band, people drop in English words to conversation all the time (the posher they are the more they do it), cultural references are made to Britain every day in the newspapers, popular music, television, every day conversation etc. Yet at the same time, Argentine nationalism - invented by Peron - is inextricably anti-British - it was founded on nationalizing British owned industry - and when Argentina play England at football, it is like the world cup final. The people see it as their number 1 game, much more so than Brazil or Uruguay. If you had never seen a map and spent a year in Argentina, you would think it shared a border with Britain.

But yet, this attitude to America and Britain isn't surprising, if you think about it. In Argentina, the rich are usually criminals, so we think of the world as the same. The people are so cynical about everything, they find it impossible to imagine that in other country's the politicians don't steal so much, that there is genuine respect for democracy and human rights, that people actually do have compassion for the rest of the world - anglo-saxons are painted as robotic and heartless. Yet, when I came here, I found a much more tolerant, open, compassionate, civilized society than the one i had left behind, (and this was under thatcher, at the time of the Falklands no less, so things are a lot better now) and nearly all Argentines in Britain and America agree - you do have moral superiority over us, whether or not it's a comfortable fact. Not as individuals, but as a society. When Argentines laugh at the ideas of Britain's trust in market economics, a welfare state, a strong but not intrusive law enforcement, it's because they think such a country is unrealistic - but they never stop to wonder why it is they who are emigrating to Europe and America, not the other way around.

In short, Argentines as individuals are wonderful, but as a society they believe they are cleverer than everyone else, that they don't have to bother with the rules of the game, that everyone is the same so why not just be the best at being corrupt. They laugh at everyone but the joke is on them. Good intentions from politicians, the military, the general public, sadly, are something which is laughable to most people. So when they see Tony Blair talking about Iraq, they despise him not because they actually have looked at the issues in question and have decided he is wrong, but because to them the very idea that Britain or any other country could even conceive of an ethical foreign policy is laughable. Of course, I am generalising, there are Argentine modernisers, I have many friends who run blogs out there and many are Blairites - like myself - but they (we?) are a small minority, and more importantly,a silent one, because to express such a view would be heresy to many people.

Now I don't want to paint a horrible picture, because these things are very subtle, and it would probably take you years of going to Argentina to come to this conclusion. I only see all this after 24 years in Britain and having been to university here, which has given me enough perspective to compare Argentina to the rest of the world - so I have to say I really admire my friends in Argentina who live there and have the clarity of thought to see all this.

Sorry for the awfully long post, I couldn't sleep. It won't happen again and I welcome your thoughts.

[Hustler]

Simplistic but vaguely correct, except for the laziness part. They are actually very hard working.

I'm quite certain that a Mexican can outwork an Argentine.

[Hustler]

Yes Hustler I called your bluff. You better read it now, or you will prove you are simply a cantankerous time-waster.

Or that you're a shitty writer.

[Conan]

They say a country's culture is reflected in its soccer team (Brazil and its flamboyance, Germany and its discipline, etc...). I was thinking about this while watching the Argentina Ivory Coast game today. The Argentinians would grab and kick opposing players when out of view of the referees. They would fake falls to get calls. Twice the pulled the trick of kicking the ball out while their player was down, to which as is customary, the ivory coast team would return the ball after their throw in to kill clock. They would act indignant at every call against them. At the end of the game they made pointless substitutions to kill more clock. They had no regard for the innocence and purity of the game. They pulled out every trick in the book to get what they wanted for themselves. The way they played soccer pretty accurately reflected their values as a people.

[demagogic_schizoid]

You seem to have the UAE confused with its more backwards neighbors. Every national there (native born Arabs) probably receives more in oil profits in a year than the average Argentine earns. Those not included in this group are immigrants who moved there despite full knowledge that they would not be getting a piece of the pie (directly, anyway). I guess it beats living in Libya or Sudan or Egypt or Pakistan or wherever else they came from. So, yes, you're right that half of the population is far richer than the other half. But I wonder what the concentration of wealth in Argentina looks like. How much of the total wealth in the country is in the hands of the wealthiest 20%? You're the LatAm studies major, so perhaps you know this.


Can't you read man? I haven't even started university yet.

Also, UAE is an Islamic society, which is reason enough to dislike it. Take your apologies elsewhere, however much money they may leech out of us for oil is irrelevant, what matters is what they do with it.

Yes Argentina does have an uneven distribution of wealth. But at least it actually HAS a middle class and resembles a developed country, even if there are some problems.

[Conan]

Simplistic but vaguely correct, except for the laziness part. They are actually very hard working.
That could be just me.

[demagogic_schizoid]

They say a country's culture is reflected in its soccer team (Brazil and its flamboyance, Germany and its discipline, etc...). I was thinking about this while watching the Argentina Ivory Coast game today. The Argentinians would grab and kick opposing players when out of view of the referees. They would fake falls to get calls. Twice the pulled the trick of kicking the ball out while their player was down, to which as is customary, the ivory coast team would return the ball after their throw in to kill clock. They would act indignant at every call against them. At the end of the game they made pointless substitutions to kill more clock. They had no regard for the innocence and purity of the game. They pulled out every trick in the back to get what they wanted for themselves. The way they played soccer pretty accurately reflected their values as a people.


Yes, because the Brazilians are famous for their sportsmanship aren't they?:rolleyes2 Also have you ever watched Italian football? Did you notice that Drogba elbowed Heinze, and Heinze made an effort to stay on his feet and not get him sent off? What you say has an elemnt of truth, but it's a gross exaggeration. England will win by cheating if necessary, just aks Michael Owen. Or alternatively look up Francis Lee, formerly of Man City, on google.

[Conan]

As someone of Argentinian descent with Argentinian family, I would say that essay is right in line with my understanding of the people of the country, not only from my travels there, but from conversation with parents, grandparents, and other relatives. In fact, it is probably the reason my parents left Argentina in the first place.

[demagogic_schizoid]

As someone of Argentinian descent with Argentinian family, I would say that essay is right in line with my understanding of the people of the country, not only from my travels there, but from conversation with parents, grandparents, and other relatives. In fact, it is probably the reason my parents left Argentina in the first place.


I would still recommend going back there to visit though. You will find some amazing scenery, people and culture you won't find anywhere else in the world.

[Conan]

I would still recommend going back there to visit though. You will find some amazing scenery, people and culture you won't find anywhere else in the world.

Ive been a handful of times. Im going again this December, hopefully catch my grandparents once more before its too late. I have a long essay I wrote about it right after a monthlong visit in high school that was published in a local literary magazine Ill see if I can dig it up.

[bergenski]

They are actually very hard working.
Considering the Spanish influence, at the very least, I find that incredibly difficult to believe.

[demagogic_schizoid]

Considering the Spanish influence, at the very least, I find that incredibly difficult to believe.

There is much more Italian influence than Spanish influence, and most of the immigrants from Italy were from the north.

[Hustler]

Can't you read man? I haven't even started university yet.

Okay, come back to me when you're less ignorant.


Also, UAE is an Islamic society, which is reason enough to dislike it. Take your apologies elsewhere, however much money they may leech out of us for oil is irrelevant, what matters is what they do with it.

You should do some research on the UAE. Islam still has a foothold there, but it is not a theocratic nation. It is moving in a direction completely different than the stereotypes which have colored your thinking on that region. Maybe after you have used the economic advantages you have as a resident of England to amass a great fortune, you can visit one of the world's greatest resorts there for some vacation, have a beer with your pork chops, and enjoy the fruits of the reinvestment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palm_Islands) into their nation's growth that their oil money has bought, as they continue to figure out ways to catapult themselves up from their humble bedouin roots by targeting the pockets of the world's financial elite. Maybe you'll even have a chance to dismiss your prejudices about the local talent because, afterall, they're not English, so maybe you'll have a shot.

Meanwhile, Argentina will still have it's Obelisk.

[Hustler]

[Some long essay of generalizations, leaps of logic, anecdotal evidence, agenda-pushing, and so on]

Great, you've managed to convince me further that Argentina is not great, and nor are it's people. You seem to be of a divided mind on this matter.

[omnirook]

Seriously though I'm surprised by how many INTP's, who after all are supposed to be RATIONAL, become lefties. I expected a few but I admit but not as many as I have encountered. Still, the fact they are on this forum gives me hope that they can be salvaged.
Rational! People are not, never have been, and never will be "rational." Rationality is just the tie that the barely controlled beast puts on when he goes out into public. There's hardly anything that is more prone to manipulative use than "rationality!" One of the best tricks that's pulled all day everyday is to shame people for being "unreasonable" - in other words, for not just bending over to be fucked hard ... Rational! Stop expecting anyone to be rational, and you'll find life a lot more fun and profitable!

... If you want to be a right-winger, fine! But at least admit that the right's whole agenda is to create an environment in which the clever, fast, and ruthless can fuck the life out of the dull, slow, and sentimental. I despise it when right-wingers try to justify their philosophy by casting it in a left-appealing light - "Oh, people should work for what they get; then they'll appreciate it more and take better care of it" - Oh, yeah, right, hard work, right. I never made any REAL money through hard work. Neither did anyone else. I have money. I have money because I was willing to do what it takes to have money. I'm a thief, a liar, a cheat; I'm corrupt and corrupting. If I were not, I'd be broke. That's the TRUTH about having money, pookie - steal, lie, cheat, be bribed, and bribe. There is NO other way.

[demagogic_schizoid]

Well I know I'm not a shitty writer, so apparently you are a cantankerous timewaster after all Mr.Hustle. I mean honestly, it took you 16 minutes to come up with that reply? And don't tell me you were doing something else, I know that your last activity between now and 3.28 AM British Summer Time was replying to this thread. Apparently it takes a bloody long time to find a complimentary link about the UAE. I wonder if the human rights monitors websites will be so kind? anyway, it's touching that you value my opinion so much you want to persuade me to visit some barren, unstable and oppressive confederation of remote oligarchies, but I can't think of anything less appealing than spending my time among expats being waited on hand and foot by a Saudi Arabian immigrant who gets flogged if they they spill my drink. Argentina may have many flaws, but when it comes to depravity the UAE is miles ahead.

And no, I wouldn't risk having acid thrown on me or being forced to witness an honour killing simply for a cheap shag. I will stay right away from that part of the world altogether thankyou very much and stick to a country where even the poor people are treated like humans (most of the time), and where a significant proportion of the population doesn't believe that they would go to heaven instantly if they died whilst killing me.

[demagogic_schizoid]

Great, you've managed to convince me further that Argentina is not great, and nor are it's people. You seem to be of a divided mind on this matter.

And this is a problem how exactly?

[demagogic_schizoid]

Rational! People are not, never have been, and never will be "rational." Rationality is just the tie that the barely controlled beast puts on when he goes out into public. There's hardly anything that is more prone to manipulative use than "rationality!" One of the best tricks that's pulled all day everyday is to shame people for being "unreasonable" - in other words, for not just bending over to be fucked hard ... Rational! Stop expecting anyone to be rational, and you'll find life a lot more fun and profitable!

... If you want to be a right-winger, fine! But at least admit that the right's whole agenda is to create an environment in which the clever, fast, and ruthless can fuck the life out of the dull, slow, and sentimental. I despise it when right-wingers try to justify their philosophy by casting it in a left-appealing light - "Oh, people should work for what they get; then they'll appreciate it more and take better care of it" - Oh, yeah, right, hard work, right. I never made any REAL money through hard work. Neither did anyone else. I have money. I have money because I was willing to do what it takes to have money. I'm a thief, a liar, a cheat; I'm corrupt and corrupting. If I were not, I'd be broke. That's the TRUTH about having money, pookie - steal, lie, cheat, be bribed, and bribe. There is NO other way.

Omni, in a free society, the more wealth is created, the more wealth finds it's way to the poor. Just look at the history of western Europe and the USA since the war - we got where we are by putting our faith in the market. On the other hand, countries like Agrentina didn't, and look where it got them. So I would say your understanding of "right" wing politics (for want of a better word) is very inaccurate, pessimistic and simplistic.

[bergenski]

...
You should do yourself a favor academic-to-be and learn a little about Dubai and Doha before making blatent characterizations.

[demagogic_schizoid]

Coming from the person who wrote this?:


Considering the Spanish influence, at the very least, I find that incredibly difficult to believe.

[Hustler]

You just don't get it, demagogue. And you're still deliberately conflating the UAE with its less-forward-thinking neighbors. I might as well equate Argentina to Uruguay as a rebuttal. Here's the deal: 20 years from now, the UAE will be a first-world country. Complete with a modern infrastructure, a democratic way of life, civil rights, conveniences, etc. Why? Money. A tremendous amount of it, and a plan to keep it flowing in by reinvesting and utilizing it for promoting international relevance it as opposed to squandering it. What is culture if not social elevation achieved through pushing the boundaries of architecture, engineering and reinventing your society to make it relevant in the years to come? Rome, Paris, New York...Dubai? Maybe so, maybe not, but at least it is taking a shot. Where will Argentina be in 20 years? Still third-world, and I don't think you need to finish your degree in LatAm studies before you can tell me why this prediction is correct. You seem to be the same sort of victim of historical repression as the Argentines in your essay. Why must you retain a backward-thinking outlook on things when, what matters for the purposes of your life, is the future? But, it's not all bad. You can still travel there once a year for your annual lay.

[Hustler]

And this is a problem how exactly?

It's a problem in maintaining any semblance of rationality or internal consistency with how you think. That is the nature of a love-hate relationship.

[omnirook]

Omni, in a free society, the more wealth is created, the more wealth finds it's way to the poor. Just look at the history of western Europe and the USA since the war - we got where we are by putting our faith in the market. On the other hand, countries like Agrentina didn't, and look where it got them. So I would say your understanding of "right" wing politics (for want of a better word) is very inaccurate, pessimistic and simplistic.
OK, pumpkin, define wealth. Let's start w/that. If you want, you can take it to another thread, so as not to get off topic w/this one.

[Hustler]

OK, pumpkin, define wealth. Let's start w/that. If you want, you can take it to another thread, so as not to get off topic w/this one.

This whole thread is one big exercise in off-topicness, so by all means, continue your discussion here.

[bergenski]

Coming from the person who wrote this?:
There's no absolute false characterization there. Not that you've convinced me anyway.

[demagogic_schizoid]

You just don't get it, demagogue. And you're still deliberately conflating the UAE with its less-forward-thinking neighbors. I might as well equate Argentina to Uruguay as a rebuttal.

Here's the deal: 20 years from now, the UAE will be a first-world country. Complete with a modern infrastructure, a democratic way of life, civil rights conveniences, etc. Why? Money. A tremendous amount of it, and a plan to keep it flowing in by reinvesting and utilizing it for promoting international relevance it as opposed to squandering it. What is culture if not social elevation achieved through pushing the boundaries of architecture, engineering and reinventing your society to make it relevant in the years to come? Rome, Paris, New York...Dubai? Maybe so, maybe not, but at least it is taking a shot. Where will Argentina be in 20 years? Still third-world, and I don't think you need to finish your degree in LatAm studies before you can tell me why this prediction is correct. You seem to be the same sort of victim of historical repression as the Argentines in your essay. Why must you retain a backward-thinking outlook on things when, what matters for the purposes of your life, is the future? But, it's not all bad. You can still travel there once a year for your annual lay.


Argentina and Uruguay are extremely similair countries, Hustler. Bolivia or Paraguay would have been much better example.

With regards to the UAE, I have firm reasons for believing that the Islamic faith itself is an obstacle to genuine progress and liberty. I very much doubt that the UAE or Dubai will be on a par with the west in 20 years, 30 years, or any time soon. Any real attempts to modernise the political system will be sabotaged by conservatives, and consequently the society will remain as backward and divided as ever. Which is the most advanced prominently Islamic country in the world? Turkey. Even though it is nominally a secular state, they have elected a hardline Islamist government, and the human rights in that country are appalling, and not likely to improve any time soon. Now, if Turkey is the pinnacle of progress in the Islamic world in the 21st century, then I suggest the problem goes deeper than something which can be remedied by quick-fix economic solutions based on the exploitation of natural resources rather than the education of the population.

Will Argentina still be third world in 20 years time? I expect so. I have never denied this, in fact it's something I spend a lot of time telling Argentines in the hope they will change. However, the society is not as brutal or backward as Middle Eastern soceity, they have held free and fair elections since 1983, the population is largely middle class, with literacy rates of above 95%, and there is genuine freedom of expression and religion, as well as equal rights for women comparable to any industrialised western nation. Can the UAE claim this? Will it ever be able to? I doubt it very much. Also, why don't you come clean and declare what exactly is your interest in this peice of desert? I mean, most americans wouldn't even trust them to run a port, so what's your story?

You find my stance on Argentina contradictory? Well that is down to your lack of perception, none of the reasons I have given for loving Argentina have been contradicted by my criticisms of it, as far as I can tell anyway.

As for living in the past, that isn't something I have ever been accused of before, you have presented me with no evidence to back-up your claim, and people whose opinion I actually value say the exact opposite.

[demagogic_schizoid]

OK, pumpkin, define wealth. Let's start w/that. If you want, you can take it to another thread, so as not to get off topic w/this one.

Define wealth? Do you mean individual wealth, the wealth of a society, the wealth of a state, or what? On a very basic level, the wealth of a country can be measured in many different ways, as I'm sure you know. Let's say GNP per head for arguments sake. The higher the GNP, the more wealthy the country. However, that doesn't make the society wealthy neccessarily, because if the wealth is in the hands of a few oil barons then it doesn't mean much to most people. So I would say a wealthy society is an industrialised society, with a large middle-class, a working class/underclass who are not in danger of starving, have adequate housing etc. Basically America and western Europe are wealthy societies. Personal wealth, for the purposes of this discussion, is the exact amount of the green stuff you posses plus the value of your possessions. If you want to go deeper than that, start your own thread and I will comment when I see fit.

[omnirook]

Define wealth? Do you mean individual wealth, the wealth of a society, the wealth of a state, or what? On a very basic level, the wealth of a country can be measured in many different ways, as I'm sure you know. Let's say GNP per head for arguments sake. The higher the GNP, the more wealthy the country. However, that doesn't make the society wealthy neccessarily, because if the wealth is in the hands of a few oil barons then it doesn't mean much to most people. So I would say a wealthy society is an industrialised society, with a large middle-class, a working class/underclass who are not in danger of starving, have adequate housing etc. Basically America and western Europe are wealthy societies. Personal wealth, for the purposes of this discussion, is the exact amount of the green stuff you posses plus the value of your possessions. If you want to go deeper than that, start your own thread and I will comment when I see fit.
Oooo ... When you see fit! Let me guess, you're a prissy little thing, just over 5 feet tall ... You almost had it - you touched the corner of it. Wealth is relative ... There you dropped it. That's where it always gets dropped. I wonder why ... The "green stuff" does not matter, is NOT real, has only the value that we give to it; besides, most of the world's "money" exists only as place holders in computer data banks these days; the relative quantity of the good old "crinkle" is miniscule by comparison ... Gee, and that goddess of the right-wing, Ayn Rand, not only admitted that money had no real value but went all out of her way to say it ... I'm not interested in the jargon of economists, most of whom are overpaid, academic morons, churning out mountains of paper that have little, if any, street value. Paper burns. What is the street value of wealth?

[Hustler]

Argentina and Uruguay are extremely similair countries, Hustler. Bolivia or Paraguay would have been much better example.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Uruguay is poorer and more corrupt.


With regards to the UAE, I have firm reasons for believing that the Islamic faith itself is an obstacle to genuine progress and liberty. I very much doubt that the UAE or Dubai will be on a par with the west in 20 years, 30 years, or any time soon.

You just refuse to engage in a rational discussion and, instead, fall back on your incorrect beliefs. I agree, Islam is a barrier to progress, but you have a grossly overblown opinion of just how much influence Islam has in the UAE compared to how much influence money has there.


Any real attempts to modernise the political system will be sabotaged by conservatives, and consequently the society will remain as backward and divided as ever. Which is the most advanced prominently Islamic country in the world? Turkey.

No, the UAE. Turkey is poorer than Urugay, even. And more culturally backward then the UAE. Now you're really showing that you just don't know what you're talking about. You can either inform yourself, or continue making yourself look foolish. Because your entire argument against the UAE seems to hinge on it behind behind Turkey when, in fact, it is eons ahead of Turkey, I will wait for you to catch up before continuing to tell you the many ways you're wrong.


Will Argentina still be third world in 20 years time? I expect so. I have never denied this, in fact it's something I spend a lot of time telling Argentines in the hope they will change. However, the society is not as brutal or backward as Middle Eastern soceity, they have held free and fair elections since 1983, the population is largely middle class, with literacy rates of above 95%, and there is genuine freedom of expression and religion, as well as equal rights for women comparable to any industrialised western nation. Can the UAE claim this? Will it ever be able to? I doubt it very much. Also, why don't you come clean and declare what exactly is your interest in this peice of desert? I mean, most americans wouldn't even trust them to run a port, so what's your story?

Yesterday? Now? Tomorrow? Which is the important answer? The UAE has gone from being a desert wasteland to being on the brink of first world status. All in a period of decades. All the while, Argentina has continued to stagnate. One country shows signs of progress. The other does not.


You find my stance on Argentina contradictory? Well that is down to your lack of perception, none of the reasons I have given for loving Argentina have been contradicted by my criticisms of it, as far as I can tell anyway.

The only reasons for liking Argentina that you have thus far supplied are that (1) you enjoy making friends there, (2) you connect with the people there better than other places and (3) you can get laid there. Your reasons for disliking Argentina are, as far as I can tell, everything else. Yet you defend it nevertheless, by comparing it favorably to other places (Mexico City, UAE, Paraguay). Despite all your posturing, you are just another victim of irrational nationalistic pride. Love-hate.


As for living in the past, that isn't something I have ever been accused of before, you have presented me with no evidence to back-up your claim, and people whose opinion I actually value say the exact opposite.

I don't need to provide any evidence to back this up; you have provided all of the evidence of it for me. You hold the UAE to stereotypes of an Arab world of yesterday. You don't even know the first thing about Dubai, which is one of the biggest hotspots in the world of capitalism today, but yet you claim to be some sort of financial conservative who is interested in the world in a rational, economic light. So here's an investment tip for you, and something to put this all in language which you can understand: you'll make about ten times as much in the next 20 years investing in Dubai as you will investing in Buenos Aires. Why is that?

[demagogic_schizoid]

Oooo ... When you see fit! Let me guess, you're a prissy little thing, just over 5 feet tall ... You almost had it - you touched the corner of it. Wealth is relative ... There you dropped it. That's where it always gets dropped. I wonder why ... The "green stuff" does not matter, is NOT real, has only the value that we give to it; besides, most of the world's "money" exists only as place holders in computer data banks these days; the relative quantity of the good old "crinkle" is miniscule by comparison ... Gee, and that goddess of the right-wing, Ayn Rand, not only admitted that money had no real value but went all out of her way to say it ... I'm not interested in the jargon of economists, most of whom are overpaid, academic morons, churning out mountains of paper that have little, if any, street value. Paper burns. What is the street value of wealth?

I don't mean to be prissy, honest. I just mean that I'm not about to get all philosiphical with you. I'm actually quite tall as well.

You say the green stuff doesn't matter. It's importance relates to the importance give to, so I accept that in an absolute sense it does not matter. However, when the entire world (pretty much) is spending it's whole life in pursuit of money, they are not going to be prepared to one day turn around and say they don't want it any more. Nobody wants to admit to themselves that they have wasted their life, nobody wants to lose their investment, and nobody is going to turn around and convince the people of the world to burn those worthless bits of paper. So yes, money has lots of value, as a means to an end and not as an end in itself. The more financial welath you have, the greater freedom you enjoy, and the more time and effort (and money) you can spend on doing what you want.

[omnirook]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Uruguay is poorer and more corrupt.



You just refuse to engage in a rational discussion and, instead, fall back on your incorrect beliefs. I agree, Islam is a barrier to progress, but you have a grossly overblown opinion of just how much influence Islam has in the UAE compared to how much influence money has there.



No, the UAE. Turkey is poorer than Urugay, even. And more culturally backward then the UAE. Now you're really showing that you just don't know what you're talking about. You can either inform yourself, or continue making yourself look foolish. Because your entire argument against the UAE seems to hinge on it behind behind Turkey when, in fact, it is eons ahead of Turkey, I will wait for you to catch up before continuing to tell you the many ways you're wrong.



Yesterday? Now? Tomorrow? Which is the important answer? The UAE has gone from being a desert wasteland to being on the brink of first world status. All in a period of decades. All the while, Argentina has continued to stagnate. One country shows signs of progress. The other does not.



The only reasons for liking Argentina that you have thus far supplied are that (1) you enjoy making friends there, (2) you connect with the people there better than other places and (3) you can get laid there. Your reasons for disliking Argentina are, as far as I can tell, everything else. Yet you defend it nevertheless, by comparing it favorably to other places (Mexico City, UAE, Paraguay). Despite all your posturing, you are just another victim of irrational nationalistic pride. Love-hate.



I don't need to provide any evidence to back this up; you have provided all of the evidence of it for me. You hold the UAE to stereotypes of an Arab world of yesterday. You don't even know the first thing about Dubai, which is one of the biggest hotspots in the world of capitalism today, but yet you claim to be some sort of financial conservative who is interested in the world in a rational, economic light. So here's an investment tip for you, and something to put this all in language which you can understand: you'll make about ten times as much in the next 20 years investing in Dubai as you will investing in Buenos Aires. Why is that?

I've been following this - sort of ... Hmmm ... Seems to me that there's some Arab bashing going on here. Just as no one wants to remember that Iraq had the highest average standard of living among Arab countries prior to the first Gulf War, which necessitated turning the dear old Saddam of the Iran/Iraq war into the "Butcher of Baghdad," no one is willing to admit that any Arab nation - or non-Arab Muslim nation - is capable of progress of any sort. We've got to keep them "savages" just in case we feel an urge to drop some more bombs on brown people.

[omnirook]

I don't mean to be prissy, honest. I just mean that I'm not about to get all philosiphical with you. I'm actually quite tall as well.

You say the green stuff doesn't matter. It's importance relates to the importance give to, so I accept that in an absolute sense it does not matter. However, when the entire world (pretty much) is spending it's whole life in pursuit of money, they are not going to be prepared to one day turn around and say they don't want it any more. Nobody wants to admit to themselves that they have wasted their life, nobody wants to lose their investment, and nobody is going to turn around and convince the people of the world to burn those worthless bits of paper. So yes, money has lots of value, as a means to an end and not as an end in itself. The more financial welath you have, the greater freedom you enjoy, and the more time and effort (and money) you can spend on doing what you want.

Sigh ... What is the street value of wealth?

[demagogic_schizoid]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Uruguay is poorer and more corrupt.

Well I personally prefer Vazquez to Kirchner. They share cultural, history and genes. In terms of corruption there is no noticeable difference. In terms of economy, Argentina is stronger, but there are many rich people in Uruguay. Have you heard of Punta Del Este?


You just refuse to engage in a rational discussion and, instead, fall back on your incorrect beliefs. I agree, Islam is a barrier to progress, but you have a grossly overblown opinion of just how much influence Islam has in the UAE compared to how much influence money has there.

No, the UAE. Turkey is poorer than Urugay, even. And more culturally backward then the UAE. Now you're really showing that you just don't know what you're talking about. You can either inform yourself, or continue making yourself look foolish. Because your entire argument against the UAE seems to hinge on it behind behind Turkey when, in fact, it is eons ahead of Turkey, I will wait for you to catch up before continuing to tell you the many ways you're wrong.

Whatever, to be honest I couldn't give a fuck about the insignificant little country. However, I read the one link you provided me with, and I fail to see how the building of the Palm Islands is anything other than a vulgar attempt by the grotesquely rich to convince themselves that they really are the gods they think they are. Yes of course it will create employment, and wealth, and the country will advance economically, but from what I can tell there is no genuine sense of liberty, responsibility, or opportunity amongst the normal people, the labourers, the workers, the immigrants, that there was in a country like America, for example. It seems like everyone in the UAE is there to make a quick buck, nothing binds them as a nation. Read about Argentina's history - in the 1940's Argentina was in much the same situation and was actually at one point the richest nation in the world. However, the people were kept in serfdom, and eventually rose up and supported the populist/fascist Peron, who set the stall for eyars of deline. If the UAE is not careful, something similair could happen there, because I don't see what sense of social responsibility people in that society have towards each other, I understand that they embrace capitalism as a tool to cretae wealth, but where is the faith in capitalism as a culture, as a way of life, that us anglo-saxons have, for example. Nothing you have said has delved into this side of things, and this is why I don't think the UAE will ever be a truly first world society.








The only reasons for liking Argentina that you have thus far supplied are that (1) you enjoy making friends there, (2) you connect with the people there better than other places and (3) you can get laid there. Your reasons for disliking Argentina are, as far as I can tell, everything else. Yet you defend it nevertheless, by comparing it favorably to other places (Mexico City, UAE, Paraguay). Despite all your posturing, you are just another victim of irrational nationalistic pride. Love-hate..

If you say so. Or maybe there are just some things I hold back. FWIW I am not a nationalist, however I am a patriot, and that is something I consider to be a virtue not a vice. Being critical of somewhere does not mean you dislike that place, in fact I always say that a true friend is prepared to be your harshest critic.


I don't need to provide any evidence to back this up; you have provided all of the evidence of it for me. You hold the UAE to stereotypes of an Arab world of yesterday. You don't even know the first thing about Dubai, which is one of the biggest hotspots in the world of capitalism today, but yet you claim to be some sort of financial conservative who is interested in the world in a rational, economic light. So here's an investment tip for you, and something to put this all in language which you can understand: you'll make about ten times as much in the next 20 years investing in Dubai as you will investing in Buenos Aires. Why is that?


See above.

[Nemesis]

Holy Christ. They all start while I'm out of the house. I'll be up all night catching up.

My account of the first page:

Madrigal: 1
Ferrus: 0
zhang_bob: The 60's were not good to him.
Hustler: Priceless

[demagogic_schizoid]

Sigh ... What is the street value of wealth?

How about you define "street value" Mr.Shakur, then maybe I can tell you. For now, let's just say I intend to spend as little time as possible on "the street"

[omnirook]

How about you define "street value" Mr.Shakur, then maybe I can tell you. For now, let's just say I intend to spend as little time as possible on "the street"
The street is safer than a corporate board-room!

OK, you're British, so perhaps a bit of translation is necessary, no offense meant.

Here, when you say "street value," you mean real value, minus all bullshit.

What does wealth really mean?

I'm not looking for any figures or statistics or any other window-dressing - I want to know if YOU understand what wealth REALLY is. (Hint: wealth is NOT, never has been, and never will be absolute. It cannot be absolute. Further hint: it has LITTLE to do w/your or anybody's pile of goodies.)

[Nemesis]

Yeah. I stopped reading as soon as I hit democrap's 12th grade social studies research paper (which is probably overwhelmingly filled with misinformation, strawmen, and ridiculous claims about banging chicks in God only knows where).

Sincerely,
Your friendly forumhood Irishman

[sbw]

The real question is why is Ireland so much better than the United Kingdom? How did that come to pass?

I think this has a lot to do with economic liberalization, but I'm not completely sure.

Scott

[Nemesis]

I have money because I was willing to do what it takes to have money. I'm a thief, a liar, a cheat; I'm corrupt and corrupting. If I were not, I'd be broke. That's the TRUTH about having money, pookie - steal, lie, cheat, be bribed, and bribe. There is NO other way.
You're not going to make your way down the AC expressway to demand protection money from me are you?

[omnirook]

You're not going to make your way down the AC expressway to demand protection money from me are you?
Not unless you're rich. The only people in whom there's any sport in fucking are rich people. Oh, the stories I could tell ... :devil:

[Nemesis]

Not unless you're rich. The only people in whom there's any sport in fucking are rich people. Oh, the stories I could tell ... :devil:
You from Joisey (NY extended) or Sahth Jerrzee (PA extended)

[Conan]

Yeah. I stopped reading as soon as I hit democrap's 12th grade social studies research paper (which is probably overwhelmingly filled with misinformation, strawmen, and ridiculous claims about banging chicks in God only knows where).

Sincerely,
Your friendly forumhood Irishman

My father immigrated from Argentina to the United States in 1981. Right after reading the essay I emailed it to him because I found it to be an incredibly informed, accurate, and insightful perspective of the Argentine culture. My father's replied to me stating that the essay was right on noting that in fact, it very accurately describes the reasons why he chose to leave Argentina and why he has no desire to move back.

Its unfortunate that despite admitting having not read it you have to mock one of the best posts (not to mention take a shot at the poster) in what has developed into an interesting thread (whether you agree with him or not) when you have nothing to offer it but :


Holy Christ. They all start while I'm out of the house. I'll be up all night catching up.

My account of the first page:

Madrigal: 1
Ferrus: 0
zhang_bob: The 60's were not good to him.
Hustler: Priceless

[INThoughtPolice]

Why can't you get laid in England?
Because he doesn't want to and who could blame him. English women are gross.

[sbw]

Because he doesn't want to and who could blame him. English women are gross.

upon returning from england, I commented that there were more hot women in my town (total population 50K) than in england.

Scott

[omnirook]

You from Joisey (NY extended) or Sahth Jerrzee (PA extended)
I'm from New York. I've settled in New Jersey, so as to be at the beach.

[INThoughtPolice]

upon returning from england, I commented that there were more hot women in my town (total population 50K) than in england.

Scott
lol. You could easily replace England with Britain there.

[omnirook]

Because he doesn't want to and who could blame him. English women are gross.
My mother was English.

[INThoughtPolice]

My mother was English.
And your father was blind, right?

[Hustler]

Whatever, to be honest I couldn't give a fuck about the insignificant little country. However, I read the one link you provided me with, and I fail to see how the building of the Palm Islands is anything other than a vulgar attempt by the grotesquely rich to convince themselves that they really are the gods they think they are. Yes of course it will create employment, and wealth, and the country will advance economically, but from what I can tell there is no genuine sense of liberty, responsibility, or opportunity amongst the normal people, the labourers, the workers, the immigrants, that there was in a country like America, for example. It seems like everyone in the UAE is there to make a quick buck, nothing binds them as a nation. Read about Argentina's history - in the 1940's Argentina was in much the same situation and was actually at one point the richest nation in the world. However, the people were kept in serfdom, and eventually rose up and supported the populist/fascist Peron, who set the stall for eyars of deline. If the UAE is not careful, something similair could happen there, because I don't see what sense of social responsibility people in that society have towards each other, I understand that they embrace capitalism as a tool to cretae wealth, but where is the faith in capitalism as a culture, as a way of life, that us anglo-saxons have, for example. Nothing you have said has delved into this side of things, and this is why I don't think the UAE will ever be a truly first world society.

So, wait, you do or you don't understand the significance of what Palm Island represents? It represents the cutting edge in architecture and engineering and, furthermore, it represents unabashed speculation and capitalism. It represents growth. You say you think it is a vulgar attempt by the grotesquely rich to convince themselves that they really are the gods they think they are but then go on to acknowledge that Yes of course it will create employment, and wealth, and the country will advance economically, but from what I can tell there is no genuine sense of liberty, responsibility, or opportunity amongst the normal people, the labourers, the workers, the immigrants, that there was in a country like America, for example. So, which is it? Is it going to create wealth or is it just a vulgar display of vanity? And to denigrade this because there is no sense of liberty like there was in America!? Are you fucking kidding me? America was built on the backs of slaves and the marginalized, poor workers. Do you think a black man in Georgia in the early 1800s felt any sense of liberty? Hell, what about a black man in Compton today? How do you think his sense of opportunity compares to that of a Pakistani immigrant in the UAE whose efforts in the last few years have not only produced more income for him than he could have made in a lifetime in Pakistan, but also social progress in the UAE and liberation for himself? America was built on greed and genocide on a mass scale. America maintains its hegemonical stranglehold on the world through relentless and aggressive imperialism, as it has for generations. How quickly we forget the Philippines or Vietnam, and now Iraq. Compared to the America which rose from the blood of her natives and the ashes of the Civil War, Dubai is a land of saints. A moral utopia. Right or wrong, that is how America was built. That is how all great empires were built, from Egypt to Rome to China to Mongolia to Britain to America, and everything in between. All of the world's great nations today have blood on their hands. Wars, subjugation, slavery, genocide, apartheid, oppression...you name it. That's how the world has always been. To call the UAE out on being without a sense of liberty or a moral core is patently hypocritical and absurd, and frankly, smacks of racism and xenophobia. Especially considering you do this with absolutely no knowledge or understanding of the culture there or the magnitude of the changes which have taken place there over the last few decades. 100% of your information is based on media-fed sound-bites about the "Arab world" together with a few wikipedia clicks over the last day. The result: you think Islam is bad. Well, that's a wonderful conclusion you've pieced together there, but even Islam can't stop progress. Nothing can, and Dubai is a testament to that. But, that's okay, they don't really need your approval. Dubai will continue to surge ahead into the 21st century, eclipsing the relevance of Argentina and the rest of Latin America on the international scene as the latter continue to fail to get their shit together.

I'm going to chalk your enamorment with America and England, subjective and selective understanding of history and ignorance about the UAE to effective propoganda and you only being 19. Ageist of me? Sure, but you've earned it.

PS -- Why don't you get a longer signature? Thanks.

[Nemesis]

My father immigrated from Argentina to the United States in 1981. Right after reading the essay I emailed it to him because I found it to be an incredibly informed, accurate, and insightful perspective of the Argentine culture. My father's replied to me stating that the essay was right on noting that in fact, it very accurately describes the reasons why he chose to leave Argentina and why he has no desire to move back.

Its unfortunate that despite admitting having not read it you have to mock one of the best posts (not to mention take a shot at the poster) in what has developed into an interesting thread (whether you agree with him or not) when you have nothing to offer it but :
Now listen here, Silas. I don't care what the hell you might have to say, wether it's in relation to me, what this guy wrote, or anyone's character, and I think you know that, judging by the fact that it's common knowledge that I severely dislike you. So, could you please save your bleeding heart reformed soul routine for someone who cares? Because, I'll be honest, you bore me.

I read the guy's other responses, and all of them were filled with ridiculous assumptions, severe xenophobia, and an unforgiveable ignorance as to the subject he's discussing. I make character judgements extremely quickly and sometimes based on a small, what some would call an insufficient amount of information, you're right. I'm surprised you haven't come to expect it from me yet. If this guy wants me to consider his opinion (which I severely doubt that he even cares) then he'll have to stop saying that he's an educated, well traveled, eloquent person and start carrying himself like one.

[sbw]

PS -- Why don't you get a longer signature? Thanks.

this part cracked me up for whatever reason, then I went and read the sig and it was morrissey and that made me laugh even harder.

Scott

[Nemesis]

I'm from New York. I've settled in New Jersey, so as to be at the beach.
*Sputters on tea*

Surely, my good man, you mean down the shore.

[omnirook]

And your father was blind, right?
How do you stand being -- you? You must have been terribly picked on in the school yard. Were you skinny? Were you fat? Ugly? Did you wear glasses? Or perhaps you have a hump on your back? Maybe the real taunts came in the locker room, when you were undressed - and didn't "measure up" in comparison to the others. It was something. Somewhere along the line, you were very damaged. Only a weak, pathetic, shrunken up and miserable creature stoops to make fun of other people's parents - or their children.

[Architectonic]

What about the leftist idea that all humans deserve to have the basic neccessities to live without suffering is irrational?

Its not the idea, its the hypocritical policies they bring into place.

Both liberals (libertarians) and socialists often make similar arguements, in terms of the capacity of each system to deliver the basic neccessities, with a minimum amount of suffering.

[INThoughtPolice]

How do you stand being -- you? You must have been terribly picked on in the school yard. Were you skinny? Were you fat? Ugly? Did you wear glasses? Or perhaps you have a hump on your back? Maybe the real taunts came in the locker room, when you were undressed - and didn't "measure up" in comparison to the others. It was something. Somewhere along the line, you were very damaged. Only a weak, pathetic, shrunken up and miserable creature stoops to make fun of other people's parents - or their children.
Everyone is a parent or child so who does that leave to make fun of?

Hey, you know I'm only kidding with you omnirook. I don't pretend to know anything about you or your family, apologies.

Note to self: No yo' mamma jokes for omnirook

[Architectonic]

What is the street value of wealth?

Money is just the medium for trade. Wealth is whatever you can buy. Hence the street value varies greatly, depending on your location - the street value is generally greater in the more liberal freer-market economies than it is elsewhere.

[omnirook]

Money is just the medium for trade. Wealth is whatever you can buy. Hence the street value varies greatly, depending on your location - the street value is generally greater in the more liberal freer-market economies than it is elsewhere.
Wrong. Next.

[omnirook]

Everyone is a parent or child so who does that leave to make fun of?

Hey, you know I'm only kidding with you omnirook. I don't pretend to know anything about you or your family, apologies.

You know perfectly what I meant. If a person's mother is fat, you do not make fun of her to get at him: she's his mother. That's crossing the line.

Accepted. Thank you.

[INThoughtPolice]

Sigh ... What is the street value of wealth?
What? Elaborate.

[INThoughtPolice]

You know perfectly what I meant.Yes.
If a person's mother is fat, you do not make fun of her to get at him: she's his mother. That's crossing the line.

Accepted. Thank you.
http://www.mtv.com/onair/dyn/yo_momma/series.jhtml
I don't recommend you watch this.

[omnirook]

What? Elaborate.
Right.

We have a world full of learned experts who spend their time collecting and "analyzing" all sorts of data that is related to wealth. All sorts of conclusions are drawn and widely published. Everyday, forests full of trees are sacrified to this effort. Yet, for some reason, one never comes across any discussion of what wealth really is - what is its purpose? - what need does it serve? Circle it and circle it and circle it - but never "land," at least not explictly, certainly not publicly ... Some of the rich understand; some of the poor understand - surely there is someone among the middle-class who understands? ... I am sorry for being so coy. But my quarry has not responded, and it would not be fair to myself to "spill the beans" just yet ... I'll give you a few bones:

1 - wealth is a technique, not a commodity;
2 - wealth is relative, not absolute; it exists only w/in the context of relationships;
3 - both money and material goods could conceivably exist w/o there being wealth --- wealth has little to do w/sustenence - or even luxury; it has a great deal to do w/the status quo. (The status quo is not affected by changes in quantity - only quality.)

[Hustler]

1 - wealth is a technique, not a commodity;

Wealth is neither a technique nor a commodity. It is the degree to which you are free to make use of an array of techniques or commodities.


2 - wealth is relative, not absolute; it exists only w/in the context of relationships;

Obviously.


3 - both money and material goods could conceivably exist w/o there being wealth --- wealth has little to do w/sustenence - or even luxury; it has a great deal to do w/the status quo. (The status quo is not affected by changes in quantity - only quality.)

Much as wealth is not necessary for the existence of money and material goods, neither is the status quo necessary for wealth. The status quo is just one option afforded by wealth, but it is by no means the only option. Wealth is furthermore unconcerned with changes in quantity or quality. These exist, again, as characteristics which are subject to the influence of wealth.

Wealth is a means to an array of ends, though it can also be its own end, if that is the desire of the person whose wealth is in question. Wealth is a form of power, the power to open up and exercise more options on a given decision. Consider a simple example. Two men, one wealthier than the other, must get from point A to point B. Invariably, the wealthier man will have at least as many options, and often more, by which to get from point A to point B, and has the freedom to choose which option suits him the most. As wealth is unconcerned with quality or quantity, it is entirely possible that both men choose the same path to get from point A to point B, but the wealthier man was not constrained to the same set of possibilities.

People often make the mistake of equating wealth to an amassing of money or material goods. While those are generally a good indicator of wealth, other means of acquiring wealth certainly do exist. Social capital, for instance, can translate to an increase in the quantity and/or quality of options available to a person at a given decision point. An economic value can be assigned to virtually any entity, real or imagined, and an ability for any person to acquire, use or otherwise access said entity can be measured. It is from this exchange that the concept of wealth is derived.

[omnirook]

Wealth is neither a technique nor a commodity. It is the degree to which you are free to make use of an array of techniques or commodities.



Obviously.



Much as wealth is not necessary for the existence of money and material goods, neither is the status quo necessary for wealth. The status quo is just one option afforded by wealth, but it is by no means the only option. Wealth is furthermore unconcerned with changes in quantity or quality. These exist, again, as characteristics which are subject to the influence of wealth.

Wealth is a means to an array of ends, though it can also be its own end, if that is the desire of the person whose wealth is in question. Wealth is a form of power, the power to open up and exercise more options on a given decision. Consider a simple example. Two men, one wealthier than the other, must get from point A to point B. Invariably, the wealthier man will have at least as many options, and often more, by which to get from point A to point B, and has the freedom to choose which option suits him the most. As wealth is unconcerned with quality or quantity, it is entirely possible that both men choose the same path to get from point A to point B, but the wealthier man was not constrained to the same set of possibilities.

People often make the mistake of equating wealth to an amassing of money or material goods. While those are generally a good indicator of wealth, other means of acquiring wealth certainly do exist. Social capital, for instance, can translate to an increase in the quantity and/or quality of options available to a person at a given decision point. An economic value can be assigned to virtually any entity, real or imagined, and an ability for any person to acquire, use or otherwise access said entity can be measured. It is from this exchange that the concept of wealth is derived.
Closer. Not quite. But very good.

[Hustler]

Closer. Not quite. But very good.

No, I'm right. You're the one who is mistaken.

[Architectonic]

Closer. Not quite. But very good.

Thats an interesting response, since Hustler basically explained my thoughts in more depth.

What you can buy = the degree of possibilities. With a broader definition, the transaction doesn't have to involve any money/material goods.

[demagogic_schizoid]

So, wait, you do or you don't understand the significance of what Palm Island represents? It represents the cutting edge in architecture and engineering and, furthermore, it represents unabashed speculation and capitalism. It represents growth. You say you think it is a vulgar attempt by the grotesquely rich to convince themselves that they really are the gods they think they are but then go on to acknowledge that Yes of course it will create employment, and wealth, and the country will advance economically, but from what I can tell there is no genuine sense of liberty, responsibility, or opportunity amongst the normal people, the labourers, the workers, the immigrants, that there was in a country like America, for example. So, which is it? Is it going to create wealth or is it just a vulgar display of vanity?

It's both. It will create wealth in the short term, but there is no potential within the society to use that wealth to develop a sustainable, stable and free society.


And to denigrade this because there is no sense of liberty like there was in America!? Are you fucking kidding me? America was built on the backs of slaves and the marginalized, poor workers. Do you think a black man in Georgia in the early 1800s felt any sense of liberty? Hell, what about a black man in Compton today? How do you think his sense of opportunity compares to that of a Pakistani immigrant in the UAE whose efforts in the last few years have not only produced more income for him than he could have made in a lifetime in Pakistan, but also social progress in the UAE and liberation for himself? America was built on greed and genocide on a mass scale. America maintains its hegemonical stranglehold on the world through relentless and aggressive imperialism, as it has for generations. How quickly we forget the Philippines or Vietnam, and now Iraq. Compared to the America which rose from the blood of her natives and the ashes of the Civil War, Dubai is a land of saints.

So what you're saying is that Dubai is at about the same level of development as a society which the USA was at 200 years ago. I suppose that puts them several centuries ahead of the Islamic world but it's hardly likely to convince me that they are anywhere near becoming a first world country. Your take on Vietnam and Iraq is ludicrous, tell me, if America had really wanted to build an empire then why didn't they just go out and do so rather than engage in this ridiculous charade of "cultural imperialism" - apparently you think there are Marines in every country on earth herding the people into MacDonalds and making them wear Nike trainers. :rolleyes: Here's a tip - when building an empire don't let your subjects choose their own government or it kind of takes matters out of your own hands. Unless of course what you are building is not an empire at all. Could it just be that American culture has been exported because it is succesful, and there is a demand for it from people across the world.

Also, America's modern industrial might has very little indeed to do with slavery. The wealth of the southern plantation owners was built on slavers, and they have been pretty much irrelevant for the last two centuries. You seem to underestimate the role of WASP values in making America the world's most powerful country, I maintain that they are the most important factor.


Right or wrong, that is how America was built. That is how all great empires were built, from Egypt to Rome to China to Mongolia to Britain to America, and everything in between. All of the world's great nations today have blood on their hands. Wars, subjugation, slavery, genocide, apartheid, oppression...you name it. That's how the world has always been. To call the UAE out on being without a sense of liberty or a moral core is patently hypocritical and absurd, and frankly, smacks of racism and xenophobia. Especially considering you do this with absolutely no knowledge or understanding of the culture there or the magnitude of the changes which have taken place there over the last few decades. 100% of your information is based on media-fed sound-bites about the "Arab world" together with a few wikipedia clicks over the last day. The result: you think Islam is bad. Well, that's a wonderful conclusion you've pieced together there, but even Islam can't stop progress. Nothing can, and Dubai is a testament to that. But, that's okay, they don't really need your approval. Dubai will continue to surge ahead into the 21st century, eclipsing the relevance of Argentina and the rest of Latin America on the international scene as the latter continue to fail to get their shit together.

So what you are saying is that in short there is moral equivalence between Genghis Khan and Abraham Lincoln. Sorry to simplify (well no, not I'm not really) but my hope is that when put to you like this you will see the folly of your ways. Dubai may not need my approval, but they will need the approval of the west as a whole, and it seems your Congress or voters don't trust them very much. Life could be very hard indeed for little Dubai if it's leaders don't start to make some changes, and soon, otherwise they are going to be caught between the insatiable demands of the crony capitalists on one hand, and the demand for a greater share of the wealth, plus the conservative third world attitudes, of the poor immigrant labourers. Unless these internal injustices are resolved it's going to all blow up sometime, as inevitably these things do throughout history. Still, at least in the meantime they will build some big hotels.


I'm going to chalk your enamorment with America and England, subjective and selective understanding of history and ignorance about the UAE to effective propoganda and you only being 19. Ageist of me? Sure, but you've earned it.

PS -- Why don't you get a longer signature? Thanks.

That's good of you, and BTW your witty signature had me in stitches for hours.

[Conan]

I read the guy's other responses, and all of them were filled with ridiculous assumptions, severe xenophobia, and an unforgiveable ignorance as to the subject he's discussing. I make character judgements extremely quickly and sometimes based on a small, what some would call an insufficient amount of information, you're right. I'm surprised you haven't come to expect it from me yet. If this guy wants me to consider his opinion (which I severely doubt that he even cares) then he'll have to stop saying that he's an educated, well traveled, eloquent person and start carrying himself like one.

Then maybe you should comment on the posts you actually read. While the name-calling you provide is incredibly clever, perhaps you could throw in some actual substance as to why you believe he is demonstrating such unforgiveable ignorance. Because while I cant comment on his perspectives on the UAE I find his perspective on Argentina to be incredibly informed.

[demagogic_schizoid]

Thanks esteban. I must add that that essay was written in response to someone on a forum, obviously if it was for college I would have provided data, sources, quotes and a much deeper analysis.

Saludos

Tim

[omnirook]

Thats an interesting response, since Hustler basically explained my thoughts in more depth.

What you can buy = the degree of possibilities. With a broader definition, the transaction doesn't have to involve any money/material goods.
"Buy," "Sell" ... blah, blah, blah ... "Options," "Possibilities" ... blah, blah, blah ... Rah! Rah! Rah! ...

[demagogic_schizoid]

you're saying what we're all thinking.

[Madrigal]

Madrigal, good to see you. Why are you so angry all the time? Won't you answer my PM? I think it's a shame.

I'll answer it, Tim. I was just expecting something like this to come up before that. Why don't you tell me what those dictators have in common? Don't tell me you can't figure it out.


And by the way everyone, Argentina is an amazing country with great people. And most of them are not militant leftists.

ex-militant.


Madrigal is ok really, just sadly views the world from a skewed perspective that comes from living far away in the south where relation with foreigners is minimal.

lol. I think this is a bit condescending. I have lived in four countries throughout my life and travelled to more. I'm also Canadian and my family is Spanish and Argentinian. So it would be wrong to say I have no contact with foreigners - not that such a fact would invalidate a political viewpoint.


Madrigal, I promise you, if you spent 5 years in London you would abandon your ways.

I think that leftists will abandon their ways when the world's oppressors are forecefully made to abandon theirs first, via an international class struggle.

Tim, about Malvinas. They were originally French and later under Spanish rule. When the Provincias Unidas del Rio de la Plata gained their independence from Spain, these islands did too. On January 2, 1833, the islands were militarily invaded by the UK, and its inhabitants were expelled from the islands. Ever since then, Argentina has demanded its soverignty over the Malvinas. Simple, isn't it? The attempt to reconquer them in 1982 was a desperate move by the military dictatorship to rebuild support for the regime which was in decline. Protests were being brutally repressed in Plaza de Mayo square, people were beginning to massively oppose the dictatorship, and Galtieri & Co. believed that by embarking on a nationalistic expedition to reconquer Malvinas they would align the population behind the military government. Actually, the government's defeat sealed its own collapse. But it also reaffirmed the illigitimate imperialist occupation over Malvinas, a political blow serving to further subjugate a semi-colonial country and pave the way for neoliberal policies during the dark era that was the 80s.

You see, the only way that Argentina cold have recovered Malvinas was by means of a struggle carried out by the mobilized masses. That is the only factor that can compensate for Argentina's military inferiority. Take a look at Vietnam - their inferior weaponry did not stop them from defeating the US, because there was a mobilized population willing to fight til the death against the imperialist invasion. Now, Argentina at the time had undergone the bloodiest dictatorship in its history. An entire generation of social fighters had been anihiliated - the true goal of the dictatorship in the first place, and that of the dicatorhsips throught the entire region at the time. Argentina's masses were not mobilized by the military government; a dictatorship will never agree to truly mobilize the masses in an anti-imperialist struggle. Why? Because a mobilized working class would not only fight to liberate itself from imperialist oppression, it would defeat its oppressors on its own land, and nobody wanted that. They had worked too hard making 30,000 people "disappear" in concentration camps to throw it all away over Malvinas. You see, despite its nationalist rhetoric, there is nothing less patriotic than a dictatorship, as it will always put its own survival before an emancipation from imperialist occupation.


Hustler, England has a better economy than Argentina because it has a healthier society and better government. The culture is one of liberty, respect for the law, and prudence.

:wtf: Sorry, but a quick look at recent history tells me that England and the US broke International Law in their insane incursion against Iraq, and continue to do so by torturing prisoners and killing innocent civilians. But what the hell, I suppose International Law is only meant for banana republics such as Argentina.


Stop me if Im making another obvious point, but the root problem with Argentina is its culture of corruption, selfinterest, vanity, arrogance, irresponsibility, martyrdom... did I mention corruption? and it starts with its government.

Sure, corruption taints the entire social scale, but will you attempt to find the root of that corruption in political and economic history, or will you find it in a supposed perverse character of all Argentinians? Are Germans really just nazi bastards deep down, or was nazism due to a combination of historical factors? This is where I'll call you an idealist and myself a materialist - the consciousness of a society depends on a variety of political, economical, geographical and social factors. Nobody is just born to be corrupt, born to be a nazi, etc. That's just something people say when they're too intellectually lazy to analyze all of the pieces of the puzzle. How easy is that? "Argentinians are corrupt". Too easy, Esteban, and highly unsatisfactory for those who live here and wish to improve their own society. What you are saying is that nothing can be done, as it is the very nature of Argentines to be corrupt. That is some pretty overwhelming cynicism. I hope you don't equally condemn your own compatriots in the same way. I think there is hope for them too. In fact, they could be our greatest allies. :)



You see, the way history is taught, the way it is viewed, the way people feel, is that the Argentine public have been innocent victims of their own history

Some people are innocent victims, some are not. Knowing what is wrong and not doing anything about it makes you partially responsable. In the 70s, while some people were being tortured and killed, others were looking the other way. No, some people are innocent, while others are not. What kind of victim are you, Tim?


Nobody takes a positive attitude to improve things, and everyone is waiting for a great leader to come and solve everything - hence the personality cult politics we have.

We all have our great leaders and demagogues. However, nobody is genetically predisposed to sit back and wait for someone to save them from their misery. Your statement is also denying all of the democratic organizations created in Argentina throught its struggles against social injustice. The "coodinadoras" during the 70s were embrionic expressions of direct democracy that were later squashed by the military coup. Are you under the impression that the coup was inflicted to extirpate the urban guerrillas? That assumption is false, as the guerilla had already been largely disarticulated when Peron returned to Argentina. The Montoneros had decided that their leader had returned, so their job was done. They were in for quite a surprise. A new revolutionary movement was beginning to grow, massive strikes and workers mobilizations were beginning to pose a real threat to capitalist interests. Now that was the heart of the matter.


Now, I don't expect anyone here supports the Iraq war, but in Argentina, I have observed (when I go there on holiday) there has been no debate whatsoever. The pople believe that Bush is openly boasting about taking Iraq's oil and killing the people who he believes are all terrorists - ie they believe it is open, proud empire building no different to Nazism. Whatever your opinion, it is clearly unhealthy to misrepresent the position of an entire nation, consistently and deliberately, and allow no debate in any of the mainstream media.

That's funny, because the entire world can put two and two together and realize the WMD didn't exist, Bush lied through his teeth, and that US interests in Iraq are all about redesigning the political framework in the region and ensuring its provision of oil. As for the media, there is no media as manipulated as the US media, and you should know that.


Also, Rolling Stones are the number 1 band, people drop in English words to conversation all the time (the posher they are the more they do it), cultural references are made to Britain every day in the newspapers, popular music, television, every day conversation etc.

Sorry, delusions of grandeur - Britain is yesterday's news, the empire of choice to be admired by airheads is the US. Times have changed.


In Argentina, the rich are usually criminals, so we think of the world as the same.

I could get into a long essay about the bourgeoisie being one and the same worldwide, but I can't be "arsed".


Right after reading the essay I emailed it to him because I found it to be an incredibly informed, accurate, and insightful perspective of the Argentine culture. My father's replied to me stating that the essay was right on noting that in fact, it very accurately describes the reasons why he chose to leave Argentina and why he has no desire to move back.

Well, Esteban, my father left Argentina during the dictatorship too, except that he was a militant anarchist and actually attempted to change things before darkness fell over the country. Some of his friends disappeared, and yet he came back in the 90s. Despite being extremely qualified and capable of getting a job with any private company or international organization he wishes (he's a forestry engineer), he decided to work for the government and get paid 4 times less than he could. Because that is where he believes he can make a difference with regard to natural resources management. Also, he has even created an environmentalist NGO here and fought against big businesses that are polluting our environment. So I guess your points of view depend on your priorities, don't they?

[demagogic_schizoid]

Madri, you are intelligent but you deliberately shut out the bits of the truth you don't like and throw in meaningless historical "injustices" (always perpetrated by the side you dislike against the side you like) to avoid having to stare the simple truth in the eyes: every person, and every country, is responsible for itself, and will stand and fall by it's own decisions. In fact you remind me of myself when I was 15.

England stole the Falklands from Argentina, who inherited them from Spain who inherited them from France who stole the land from the native Indians. The truth is that the people who live in the Falklands now are the only ones who matter when considering this dispute, and only they should have the right to deicide whether they become part of the Argentine Republic or not. anyway, I doubt any Argentine would want to live there, so who really cares?

Everyone has screwed everyone else over in this world, the English and Argentines no more or no less than anyone else - so if Argentina is not the victim of anyone else(at least, nomore than nay of us are), why is it in the state it is in? Why don't you stop fighting old battles, and instead look at practical ways to make Argentina regain it's status as a developed country. This is far from impossible. spain managed it after Franco. The Portuguese managed it. Chile has managed to provide it's people with a decent standard of living. None of these countries are perfect but they are not in the same trouble as Argentina, Peru, Bolivia, Venezuela, Paraguay etc., and they are actually showing signs of improvement all the time, unlike most of Latin America which just seems to fall lower and lower.Can you figure out why? Keep on fighting imperialism if you want, but go down the route of Kirchner and you will soon have a your own Chavez, who could well turn out to be another Castro, or even worse (and IMO more likely) another Mugabe. Up to you though - all I will do is try my hardest to persuade the Argentine people to make the right choice, through democracy and free speech, something you apparently despise (if you are the lefty you claim to be).

[demagogic_schizoid]

And by the way Madrigal, the reason I keep on arguing about Argentina is because I don't believe people are genetically programmed to fail. If I did, then I would take the liberal perspective that "these poor foreigners can't possibly be expected to live up to our standards, so let's show them compassion and try to understand their unique culture". I take the opposite view - Argentines are as good as anyone else, so they should play by the same rules as anyone else.

[omnirook]

OK - let me start. Bear w/me. This will take more than one post.

If you were to read the latest translation of "Remembrance of Things Past" by Marcel Proust, in addition to getting a very long explanation of why even the title had been given a different translation ("Studies of Lost Time"), you would get the warning that paying attention to detail was essential because Proust did not truly make his point until the end, and he did so by tying all the seemingly disparate details together. What follows will not make full sense until it is finished ...

I'm exhausted this morning. I got very little sleep last night because my dog is sick. In the course of the last 6 months, I have spent nearly $6,000.00 on treating her, so an average of $1000.00/month. My dog is not a pure-breed. She is not a service animal. She's just a lap dog.

I was not born rich. My father was a butcher, and my mother was a nurse. We were comfortable.

I have never had a job, have never even looked for one - or thought of looking for one.

(note: all names have been changed to protect the guilty ...)

I did have mentors, but, always, I was working for myself ... Harry: "You can make money out of thin air, if you know how, kid ... Oh, and remember this: out of the poor, you might get a half-assed hand-job, but the rich, well, they can suck a soft-ball through a straw and enjoy it better than any fat kid likes an ice-cream cone."

Harry sent me to see Fats. Fats was the premier Upper East Side apartment "rental" artist. I was just there to watch.

Fats: "Oh, this is easy, babe, real easy - and it's better than sex. You need a little cash to start, yeah, but not that much, just about what you need for doing the Garden ... All right. Harry likes you, says to show you a few things. All right - anything for Harry."

Fats was the master at "renting" apartments that he did not own, did not even rent, so he wasn't even sub-letting - just taking and keeping cash deposits from yuppies who were desperate for an Upper East Side address.

My first day w/Fats was "post-op," meaning that all had been accomplished, the cash was in hand, there wasn't really any reason to stick around - except that, to Fats, the aftermath was the best part. We were on the roof of a building, watching the goings-on below.

Fats: "I love this. This is the best. No matter how many times I see it, it never gets old. Watch, watch, here they come."

Up came a moving truck, followed by a mini-van. In the moving truck were men who were going to get paid, no matter what happened. In the mini-van were a couple who were about to get a big surprise.

The door-man was not the same man that the couple had met. The building manager was either a different man or else he had lost about 150 pounds in 2 days. Neither (this) doorman nor the building manager had ever seen this couple before - that was perfectly true. No, 5J was not for rent and likely would never be for rent; its owners were on vacation in the Hamptons and had been for 4 weeks, sorry. Fats nearly shit on himself laughing when the yuppie husband started hopping up and down, screaming blue murder.

Fats: "Oh, kid, there's not a piece of pussy in the world that's as good as that ... Aw, you look shocked, kid - that's all right. Harry'll put you wise. Me, I'm not a philosopher like Harry is. I just enjoy the work, but Harry, well, he's ... the Devil ... has to be, cause only the Devil could understand this shit the way that Harry does ... I'll see you tomorrow. We start a new job in the morning. Meanwhile, go see Harry."

And I did.

... to be continued ...

[sbw]

Your take on Vietnam and Iraq is ludicrous, tell me, if America had really wanted to build an empire then why didn't they just go out and do so rather than engage in this ridiculous charade of "cultural imperialism" - apparently you think there are Marines in every country on earth herding the people into MacDonalds and making them wear Nike trainers. :rolleyes: Here's a tip - when building an empire don't let your subjects choose their own government or it kind of takes matters out of your own hands. Unless of course what you are building is not an empire at all. Could it just be that American culture has been exported because it is succesful, and there is a demand for it from people across the world.

I selected the MOST retarded passage, so that I may preserve it for future generations... although I enjoyed the WASP values part too.

Scott

[demagogic_schizoid]

Omnirook I already know the argument for the ridiculousness of material possesions, we are just animals deep down, none of it makes any difference at all when we lay on our death beds, everyone you know will die and money can't change that, the human condition remains the same whether we live in a mud hut and die at 30 or live in a mansion and die at 100, I've argued all this many times, it isn't really that profound.

[demagogic_schizoid]

I selected the MOST retarded passage, so that I may preserve it for future generations... although I enjoyed the WASP values part too.

Scott

and which part of it did you disagree with exactly?:rolleyes: It's easy to just call something retarded and move on, however when you are unable to actually point out what is wrong with it you simply show that you are even more retarded.

[Madrigal]

Madri, you are intelligent but you deliberately shut out the bits of the truth you don't like and throw in meaningless historical "injustices" (always perpetrated by the side you dislike against the side you like) to avoid having to stare the simple truth in the eyes: every person, and every country, is responsible for itself, and will stand and fall by it's own decisions. In fact you remind me of myself when I was 15.

Tim, when you finally answer my question - what those dictators have in common - you will understand that in this gloabalized world, there are imperialist countries and oppressed countries. Surely everyone has the responsibility to help erradicate social injustice. It does not help when there are other very powerful countries financing their dicatorships, providing weapons and intelligence, and building international class alliances to defeat those who fight for progress. You see, I just gave you a clue. Why are you dodging this question? Oh yes, everyone has the choice to fight or look the other way, and you are one of the people who look the other way, Tim.


England stole the Falklands from Argentina

I'm glad we can agree on that.


The truth is that the people who live in the Falklands now are the only ones who matter when considering this dispute, and only they should have the right to deicide whether they become part of the Argentine Republic or not. anyway, I doubt any Argentine would want to live there, so who really cares?

No, geopolitically and militarily it is inconvenient for a semi-colonial country to have an imperialist base on their own turf. Yes, I believe in the independence of all peoples - I am not a patriot, I don't sing the national anthem, I don't wear the Argentine flag, and I don't support any of our presidents - but first and foremost I believe that the Malvinas should be free from imperialist rule, as that struggle for independence will be a lot harder to achieve under imperialist occupation.


Why don't you stop fighting old battles, and instead look at practical ways to make Argentina regain it's status as a developed country. This is far from impossible. spain managed it after Franco.

Yes, how many people did Franco kill before the country could "progress" towards an era of supposed "peace"? The revolutionary aims of the Spaniards during the Civil War were much more advanced, ambitious and beautiful than what Spain has become today, one of the poorest imperialists of the EU.


Chile has managed to provide it's people with a decent standard of living.

Yes, thank you Pinochet for the genocide and helping with regional subjugation to the interests of financial capital. Quite an example to follow. Another revolution shattered. You should study the coordinadoras under Allende's government, they were much more advanced than in Argentina and had the potential to take over power and re-distribute the country's wealth. Factories, schools, media, all in the hands of the revolution (in many areas), only to be crushed because of their naive hope that Allende would supply weapons for the final battle. Of course he didn't, he died alone in the Palacio de la Moneda under military bombings. His final speech was beautiful yet tragic at the same time, because it was not just him that was dying, it was the dreams of brave and courageous society that had gotten so close, but had to learn such a hard lesson in the worst way: "Workers of my fatherland, have faith in Chile and her destiny. Others will overcome this grey, sad moment when treason strains to conquer. Go forward knowing that much more sooner than later, the great avenues will open anew to let pass free people to build a better society."


None of these countries are perfect but they are not in the same trouble as Argentina, Peru, Bolivia, Venezuela, Paraguay etc., and they are actually showing signs of improvement all the time, unlike most of Latin America which just seems to fall lower and lower.Can you figure out why?

We can't agree on what 'improvement' actually means. This is why I told you I don't know if a dialogue is possible between us. What you call improvement is everything I despise. So you see, it's nothing personal against you, but can you separate someone from their ideas?

[omnirook]

Omnirook I already know the argument for the ridiculousness of material possesions, we are just animals deep down, none of it makes any difference at all when we lay on our death beds, everyone you know will die and money can't change that, the human condition remains the same whether we live in a mud hut and die at 30 or live in a mansion and die at 100, I've argued all this many times, it isn't really that profound.
Patience, sugar - that is the most valuable asset that anyone ever possessed.

[zhang_bob]

about Malvinas. They were originally French and later under Spanish rule. When the Provincias Unidas del Rio de la Plata gained their independence from Spain, these islands did too. On January 2, 1833, the islands were militarily invaded by the UK, and its inhabitants were expelled from the islands. Ever since then, Argentina has demanded its soverignty over the Malvinas. Simple, isn't it? The attempt to reconquer them in 1982 was a desperate move by the military dictatorship to rebuild support for the regime which was in decline. Protests were being brutally repressed in Plaza de Mayo square, people were beginning to massively oppose the dictatorship, and Galtieri & Co. believed that by embarking on a nationalistic expedition to reconquer Malvinas they would align the population behind the military government. Actually, the government's defeat sealed its own collapse. But it also reaffirmed the illigitimate imperialist occupation over Malvinas, a political blow serving to further subjugate a semi-colonial country and pave the way for neoliberal policies during the dark era that was the 80s.


And we would say

* Although Great Britain signed treaties with Spain over colonisation in the Americas, it did not extend to territories not under effective control.

* The principle of uti possedetis is not valid under international law.

* The right of the fifth-generation islanders to self determination outweighs any Argentine claim.

If Falkland Islanders had a referendum Great Britain would win. Until that changes Argentina should not get it back.

[omnirook]

Harry introduced me to his nephew, Bill.

Bill was even bigger than I was, a real giant. An imposing man, if ever there was one.

Before extending his hand, Bill slid his glasses to the tip of his nose, looked at me for a few seconds, then slid his glasses back up. Shaking my hand, he said to Harry: "He's half a fag, but that's all right, cause I don't think he likes little boys ... How ya doin'?"

Bill: "What? ... Oh ... The way you hold your cigarette is a dead give-away."

Bill is now my best friend.

Harry: "The gypsies ... Take our young friend to meet a few some night."

[Madrigal]

And we would say

* Although Great Britain signed treaties with Spain over colonisation in the Americas, it did not extend to territories not under effective control.

Did you miss the part about England stealing Malvinas?


* The principle of uti possedetis is not valid under international law.

Sorry, it's not legal to invade a country and expell its inhabitants. I wonder how legal it would seem to you if someone invaded your neighbourhood, took your possessions, and kicked your ass to another part of the country. Go play with your toys.


* The right of the fifth-generation islanders to self determination outweighs any Argentine claim.

Argentina's claim over its stolen lands legitimately overweighs any desires of the islanders to remain under British rule. Just because your country makes a habit of breaking international law does not mean it's actions are legitimate.


If Falkland Islanders had a referendum Great Britain would win. Until that changes Argentina should not get it back.

Maybe they would win, but that doesn't erase the fact that the land rightfully belongs to Argentina. Nobody says the islanders should be dispossessed and expelled as their predecessors, only that the islands should be returned to the Argentine government.

[demagogic_schizoid]

Tim, when you finally answer my question - what those dictators have in common - you will understand that in this gloabalized world, there are imperialist countries and oppressed countries. Surely everyone has the responsibility to help erradicate social injustice. It does not help when there are other very powerful countries financing their dicatorships, providing weapons and intelligence, and building international class alliances to defeat those who fight for progress. You see, I just gave you a clue. Why are you dodging this question? Oh yes, everyone has the choice to fight or look the other way, and you are one of the people who look the other way, Tim.

What did all those dictators have in common? They all grew up to oppress their own population, with the considerable support of a significant section of that very population.



I'm glad we can agree on that.






Yes, how many people did Franco kill before the country could "progress" towards an era of supposed "peace"? The revolutionary aims of the Spaniards during the Civil War were much more advanced, ambitious and beautiful than what Spain has become today, one of the poorest imperialists of the EU.

My point was that they have progressed since Franco's death, despite the considerable poverty he left them in (although I shudder to think what it would have been like had the commies prevailed), because they were prepared to open up and trade with the world, discard their nationalistic dreams, accept mediocrity and find a niche they could be good at. Only by accepting our ownmediocrity can we ever hope to become great. Argentina is an extremely narcisistic country, and oscilates between self-loathing and extreme vanity, what they really need is to accept their limitations, and work with what they've got to progress slowly but steadily. There are no magic answers out there.




Yes, thank you Pinochet for the genocide and helping with regional subjugation to the interests of financial capital. Quite an example to follow. Another revolution shattered. You should study the coordinadoras under Allende's government, they were much more advanced than in Argentina and had the potential to take over power and re-distribute the country's wealth. Factories, schools, media, all in the hands of the revolution (in many areas), only to be crushed because of their naive hope that Allende would supply weapons for the final battle. Of course he didn't, he died alone in the Palacio de la Moneda under military bombings. His final speech was beautiful yet tragic at the same time, because it was not just him that was dying, it was the dreams of brave and courageous society that had gotten so close, but had to learn such a hard lesson in the worst way: "Workers of my fatherland, have faith in Chile and her destiny. Others will overcome this grey, sad moment when treason strains to conquer. Go forward knowing that much more sooner than later, the great avenues will open anew to let pass free people to build a better society."

Again, you rely on rhetoric and not on logic. Just look at the mess the left have made every time they come to power. You can tell me that the Soviet Union, Cuba, North Korea, etc. were/are not real examples of communism, but they examples of real attempts at communism. Do you really think Chile would have turned out any different?

[QUOTE=Madrigal]We can't agree on what 'improvement' actually means. This is why I told you I don't know if a dialogue is possible between us. What you call improvement is everything I despise. So you see, it's nothing personal against you, but can you separate someone from their ideas?


You don't necessarily have to like someone (at least not from the start) to enjoy a conversation with them, Madri. Just go into everything with an open mind, and you might meet some people who could enrich your life. But it's up to you really.


Oh and by the way, you seem to be surprised that you exhibited a tendency to be more "materialistic" than me. Well, AFAIK, Marxism is the most materialistic dogma this world has ever known. Was it not Marx who first seriosuly put forward the theory that mans primary motivation is economics?

[demagogic_schizoid]

Sorry, it's not legal to invade a country and expell its inhabitants. I wonder how legal it would seem to you if someone invaded your neighbourhood, took your possessions, and kicked your ass to another part of the country. Go play with your toys.


Then give the land you live on back to the native Guarani and the Patagones and the Kilmes and all the other tribes. I wonder if you would support that Intifada Mrs.Anti-Imperialist.:banghead:

[Madrigal]

What did all those dictators have in common? They all grew up to oppress their own population, with the considerable support of a significant section of that very population.

I'm glad we can agree on that

Actually that is the wrong answer, but I won't stop you from guessing again.


My point was that they have progressed since Franco's death, despite the considerable poverty he left them in (although I shudder to think what it would have been like had the commies prevailed), because they were prepared to open up and trade with the world, discard their nationalistic dreams, accept mediocrity and find a niche they could be good at. Only by accepting our ownmediocrity can we ever hope to become great. Argentina is an extremely narcisistic country, and oscilates between self-loathing and extreme vanity, what they really need is to accept their limitations, and work with what they've got to progress slowly but steadily. There are no magic answers out there.

Nationalistic dreams? Is that what the Spanish Civil war was about? Do you have any idea how many international fighters travelled to Spain to help the revolution, believing Spain was the world's new hope? Actually they were remarkably internationalist in their perspective. A capitalist country, on the other hand, can only be nationalistic in its economic and political aims, except in the case of semi-colonial countries which have a cowardly bourgeois class that places foreign interests before its own, in order to guarantee its own survival.

So now Argentina is self-loathing, vain and narcissistic? Work with what you've got? Slow and steady progress? When you start studying history seriously, you will understand that progress is guaranteed by giant leaps forward, not a string of successive little reforms. How do you think the bourgeoisie did it? Yes, they took 500 years to gain power, but did they not need an armed revolution to impose their victory over feudalism?


Again, you rely on rhetoric and not on logic. Just look at the mess the left have made every time they come to power. You can tell me that the Soviet Union, Cuba, North Korea, etc. were/are not real examples of communism, but they examples of real attempts at communism. Do you really think Chile would have turned out any different?

You just ignored everything I said about Chile. Yes, I think Chile had the potential to become something truly different, but the masses were still too politically immature at the time of the coup to realize that they needed to expropriate their own weapons. In revolutionary crises, time is everything. They had advanced tremendously in a short period, they had taken giant leaps, but they needed more, the whole region needed more time. Thanks to the political degeneration of the 3rd International, their task was to bulid a new revolutionary political leadership - it didn't happen.


Oh and by the way, you seem to be surprised that you exhibited a tendency to be more "materialistic" than me. Well, AFAIK, Marxism is the most materialistic dogma this world has ever known. Was it not Marx who first seriosuly put forward the theory that mans primary motivation is economics?

Marxism is a social science, not a dogma. Just because its name has been tainted by its detractors does not make it a dogma.

[Madrigal]

Then give the land you live on back to the native Guarani and the Patagones and the Kilmes and all the other tribes. I wonder if you would support that Intifada Mrs.Anti-Imperialist.:banghead:
I'd totally defend the native's right to their land.

And if you are referring to Palestine, yes, I support the intifada.

[omnirook]

... continued ...

Fats was seated in a diner the next morning. He had finished his breakfast by time I arrived and was having coffee and a cigarette when I sat down across from him.

Fats: "We're gonna cross the Park and go down a bit this time, Hell's Kitchen. We got to be careful over there ... I'm not gonna use you on this one - it's too soon, so you just watch and listen ... One thing, though, something else. See this package?"

Me: "Yeah."

Fats: "Well, you give that to Bill when you see him; it's important, so don't lose it."

Me: "What's in it?"

Fats: "Oh, it's tickets for the Garden, sort of - Bill needs em, he'll probably ask you to help him ... Up to you. It's ok, money's not bad, but there's not much of a bang in it, not the way I like it, anyway ... Oh, wait till you get a load of this one this morning - if it ain't a diamond in the rough, I don't know my business."

Then a man I didn't know came in to see Fats.

Fats (to me): "Ah, wait at the counter for me. This'll take a few minutes, sorry."

Meanwhile, Bill saved me some trouble by coming in to the diner.

Me: "This is for you."

Bill: "Oh, thanks ... You free tonight?"

Me: "Sure."

Bill "Good. We'll go meet some gypsies. Meanwhile, let's take a walk around the block ... Don't worry, Fats won't leave w/o you - him and that fuck'll be talking for an hour or more."

[sbw]

and which part of it did you disagree with exactly?:rolleyes: It's easy to just call something retarded and move on, however when you are unable to actually point out what is wrong with it you simply show that you are even more retarded.

I've yet to meet anyone old or young who thought losing a war to pissant vietnam was a good idea in hindsight; and, because I'm no expert, I'll refer to you an excellent book (the sorrows of empire by chalmers johnson) which touched on both iraq wars, as well as the overarching theme of american imperialism and militarism.

Scott

[Geoff]

I am not sure how we can have a balanced discussion on Argentina and UK relationships without mentioning that evil Diego, Maradona. *cough* *handball* *cough cough*

[demagogic_schizoid]

I'd totally defend the native's right to their land.

And if you are referring to Palestine, yes, I support the intifada.


Now there's a shock.

I find it hard to believe that you have Argentina's interests at heart when you still can't get over the way the country came into being. Why don't you stop living in the past and think of ways to improve the day to day lives of the Argentine people, which is surely what they want and deserve.

As for history moving in great leaps forward, and not small steps - one is meaningless without the other. Of course I believe in revolution, but only for the purposes of individual liberty against tyranny - hence my support of our efforts in Iraq.

VIVA LA REVOLUCION


By the way Madrigal, have you heard of the maxim "a right-winger thinks a left-winger is wrong, a left-winger thinks a right-winger is evil". You prove it correct with every post you make.

[Madrigal]

Now there's a shock.

I find it hard to believe that you have Argentina's interests at heart when you still can't get over the way the country came into being.

I don't get what you mean by that.


Why don't you stop living in the past and think of ways to improve the day to day lives of the Argentine people, which is surely what they want and deserve.

Not to boast, but I have worked in solidarity with workers' struggles, raised funds for strikes, organized lectures and screenings, taken to the streets on numerous occasions, worked as a free speech reporter - I invested my energy, time, money and risked my physical well-being for what I believed would improve things here. So when you have the moral authority to tell me I have done nothing, you can get back to me.


As for history moving in great leaps forward, and not small steps - one is meaningless without the other.

Right.


Of course I believe in revolution, but only for the purposes of individual liberty against tyranny - hence my support of our efforts in Iraq.

Against tyranny, that's interesting, will you answer my question on what the dictators have in common anytime soon?


By the way Madrigal, have you heard of the maxim "a right-winger thinks a left-winger is wrong, a left-winger thinks a right-winger is evil". You prove it correct with every post you make.

Call it what you want. I thought Bush was the champion against the world's "evil-doers", though. :lol:

[demagogic_schizoid]

I don't get what you mean by that.

I mean that you don't even think Argentines should be living there in the first place, so how can you want the best for them?




Not to boast, but I have worked in solidarity with workers' struggles, raised funds for strikes, organized lectures and screenings, taken to the streets on numerous occasions, worked as a free speech reporter - I invested my energy, time, money and risked my physical well-being for what I believed would improve things here. So when you have the moral authority to tell me I have done nothing, you can get back to me.

You have helped sabotage the progress of your country and to support the mafias which run the unions for their own interests. Are you a personal friend of Hugo Moyano? Or do you place yourself in the other camp. Also, you don't know what I may or may not have done to help others. Finally, an action being well-intentioned does not make it helpful. I'm sure many "well-intentioened" people help the piqueteros, but when they block your way to work every morning, anihilate the value of your house by blocking nearby bridges (ask the residents of Avellaneda) and scare of foreign investors who could employ people and help them feed their families, I find it hard to find the time to congratulate you.







Against tyranny, that's interesting, will you answer my question on what the dictators have in common anytime soon?

It couldn't be anything to do with America could it? surely not, you would never be so predictable as to blame the actions of a government against it's own people, a large number of whom support it, on a foreign government. Why that's the sort of thing I used to say when I was a 15 y/o lefty.

[Ferrus]

Are you a personal friend of Hugo Moyano?
Don't you mean Chavez? He's quite the poster boy of the Commies here at my uni (and others) despite being a demagouge of the worst sort.

[sbw]

american cynicism update: one of my friends is rooting for chavez for no reason in particular.

Scott

[Madrigal]

I mean that you don't even think Argentines should be living there in the first place, so how can you want the best for them?

I never said the islanders should be expelled from the islands.


You have helped sabotage the progress of your country and to support the mafias which run the unions for their own interests. Are you a personal friend of Hugo Moyano?

No, you have no idea what I have done and you have no idea what the Left is in Argentina, if you think Moyano is a lefty. I have helped provide solidarity for independent workers organizations that were against union bureaucracy, such as the workers of Zanon and Brukman (the two most internationally recognized examples). I don't like union bureaucrats too much, Tim, who do you think helped the military kill off all of the most progressive workers? Tough one?


Also, you don't know what I may or may not have done to help others.

You are free to share.


Finally, an action being well-intentioned does not make it helpful. I'm sure many "well-intentioened" people help the piqueteros, but when they block your way to work every morning, anihilate the value of your house by blocking nearby bridges (ask the residents of Avellaneda) and scare of foreign investors who could employ people and help them feed their families, I find it hard to find the time to congratulate you.

The picketers block roads as a legitimate means of protest because they are unemployed and have no factory structure to occupy, as any worker can legally do during a strike. Only selfish pricks here complain that they arrive half an hour late for work due to road blockages. Hell, if my family were starving to death because a multi-national decided to fire workers by the thousands, I don't know if I'd be cutting off roads, Tim, maybe they should be cutting off heads, what do you think? Easy to state an opinion on a forum, but are you the one who was pushed into starvation due to corporate interests?


It couldn't be anything to do with America could it?

You're getting closer.

[Ferrus]

Oh and Argentina invading and forcing Argentinian customs on the Falkland Islanders stinks of Imperialism far more the the voluntary association they currently have with the UK: it's perfectly within their rights to declare independence via a referedum should they so wish. In contrast under Argentine rule they would be subject to the dictatorial whims of the juntas that seem so common in that part of the world.

As for "intenational law", when will people learn: law and morality are useless unless backed by power, a pure pipe dream. Unless there is intenational government (an impossibility for a variety of reasons) there will be no international law, just as it would be doltish to think of law existing in an area suffering from anarchy, think Somalia.

Therefore the US and UK didn't "illegally" invade Iraq, they simply had the power to do so and the Iraqis didn't have the power to resist, more than could be said for a certain war in the 1980's.

[Madrigal]

....nonsensical input...

Please go back to Purgatory, thanks.

[Geoff]

Oh and Argentina invading and forcing Argentinian customs on the Falkland Islanders stinks of Imperialism far more the the voluntary association they currently have with the UK: it's perfectly within their rights to declare independence via a referedum should they so wish. In contrast under Argentine rule they would be subject to the dictatorial whims of the juntas that seem so common in that part of the world.

As for "intenational law", when will people learn: law and morality are useless unless backed by power, a pure pipe dream. Unless there is intenational government (an impossibility for a variety of reasons) there will be no international law, just as it would be doltish to think of law existing in an area suffering from anarchy, think Somalia.

Therefore the US and UK didn't "illegally" invade Iraq, they simply had the power to do so and the Iraqis didn't have the power to resist, more than could be said for a certain war in the 1980's.

It depends on your viewpoint. The UK Government may have broken its own laws in invading Iraq - it might have self assessed and pronounced the war illegal.

The PM sought an opinion from the lord chief justice as to whether the war would be legal or not before proceeding - whether the answer was right depends on your viewpoint, but it certainly wasnt the case that the Government proceeded just because it "couldn't be physically resisted". Most developed countries take membership of the UN seriously.

-Geoff

[sbw]

The PM sought an opinion from the lord chief justice as to whether the war would be legal or not before proceeding - whether the answer was right depends on your viewpoint, but it certainly wasnt the case that the Government proceeded just because it "couldn't be physically resisted". Most developed countries take membership of the UN seriously.

-Geoff

here in the states, popular opinion (and the manipulation thereof) seems to be more important than written law.

Scott

[Ferrus]

Please go back to Purgatory, thanks.
Please go back to your brainless communist comrades or learn to think for yourself and actually learn some international relations (Kenneth Waltz would be a good start). Thanks.

[Madrigal]

Please go back to your brainless communist comrades or learn to think for yourself and actually learn some international relations. Thanks.
Okay, good, we'll both go our separate ways. I'll do something worthwhile and you will keep being a waste of oxygen for the planet. :)

[zhang_bob]

Did you miss the part about England stealing Malvinas?
From who?

Argentina declared independence from Spain in 1816 and laid claim to the Islands, which were then uninhabited. Actual occupation began in 1820 with the foundation of a settlement and a penal colony. The settlement was removed by the United States in 1831 after the Argentinian governor of the islands Luis Vernet seized U.S. Seal hunting ships during a dispute over rights. They left behind escaped prisoners and pirates. In November 1832 Argentina sent another governor who was killed in a mutiny. In January 1833 British forces took control, expelled the remainder of the Argentine settlement, and began to repopulate the islands with British citizens.



Argentina's claim over its stolen lands legitimately overweighs any desires of the islanders to remain under British rule. I don`t think it does.


Sorry, it's not legal to invade a country and expell its inhabitants. I wonder how legal it would seem to you if someone invaded your neighbourhood, took your possessions, and kicked your ass to another part of the country. Go play with your toys.

I think the British government would be happy to give away the Falkland Islands, if someone took the estate I live in off her hands.


Maybe they would win, but that doesn't erase the fact that the land rightfully belongs to Argentina. Nobody says the islanders should be dispossessed and expelled as their predecessors, only that the islands should be returned to the Argentine government.

This something people don`t seem to understand the United Kingdom will fight for its territries, until they do not want to be part of the U.K. Just as it does with Gibraltar, Northern Ireland and Falkland Islands.

[omnirook]

... continued ...

Bill and I walked over 2 avenues and down a few blocks.

Me: You know what Fats is doing on the West Side?

Bill: Yeah, but I'm not working that; I'm in for the next one, already doing some of the advance work - over in Jersey. They talk about NY cops - the arch-fucking-criminals are in the small towns, don't forget that. These NY cops, well ... when you deal w/the others, you'll miss them."

Me: Where are we going?

Bill: You're a good looking guy. But you need to dress better. I'm not talking fashion-plate; I'm talking nice but hard to describe. Always try to look like a piece of the scenery - never stand out."

Bill stopped in front of a tailor's shop.

Bill: "This is the place."

We went in and straight through to the back room.

Bill: "This is Moishe. He's the man for good clothes that only you will know how good ... 2 limo suits in his size ... (To me) We're gonna do a few limo jobs; you need to look the part ... No, no, Moishe - not the airport schulb this time; we need one of them "Secret Service" looking suits that the jackasses downtown like to hire to look important with. We been waiting to get a good-looking guy to go in w/us; otherwise, we could have used Joe - you remember Joe, don't you, Moishe?"

Moishe: "Who could forget Joe? Now, young man, which way?"

Me: "Which way what?"

Moishe: "So, which way does it hang, to the left or to the right - or should I feel to see how?"

Me: (embarassed) "To the right."

Moishe: "Like most men."

In an hour's time, Moishe had measured me for my 2 costumes and said that they would be ready in a week.

Bill and I walked back to the diner where we had left Fats. Fats was having his second breakfast, reading "The Racing Form."

Fats: "Cocksucker! I told that asshole not to bet that fucking horse down at Monmouth Park. Now my sister'll be screaming at me that he lost his pay again. He thinks I don't know what I'm talking about ..."

Bill: "Again w/your fucking brother-in-law - you should have told him to bet the horse. Then he wouldn't have, and your sister would be happy ... Fuck that, fuck him, we gotta go see Harry in an hour."

Fats: "I got things to do! Why didn't you say so sooner?"

Bill: "Cause you were w/that piece of shit, that's why - he should get cancer of the asshole, that prick - that's all we need is for him to bother Harry ... Finish your food, you fat fuck, and let's head across town, come on."

[Madrigal]

....more nonsensical input...

Hell, zhang bob, looks like you've been busy googling! However that doesn't deny that England stole the Islands from Las Provincias Unidas del Rio de la Plata, so why don't you really just go play with your G.I. Joes or whatever boys play with these days?

This debate started with demagogic_schizoid, so for future reference I am addressing the ring-leader, not the clown.

[Ferrus]

Okay, good, we'll both go our separate ways. I'll do something worthwhile and you will keep being a waste of oxygen for the planet. :)
Hahaha, I hope a junta returns that locks you up/kills you one day. Hell, if I were in charge I'd do it.

[sbw]

I'll do something worthwhile and you will keep being a waste of oxygen for the planet. :)

I might continue laughing at your idea of 'worthwhile', but I'm not sure yet.

Scott

[Ferrus]

I might continue laughing at your idea of 'worthwhile', but I'm not sure yet.
No no, I think pretending to be Lenin is a very worthwhile use of one's time... and rendering documents from English to Spanish all day whilst most in her country are doing back breaking work shows she has real solidarity with her comrades.

[Conan]

Sure, corruption taints the entire social scale, but will you attempt to find the root of that corruption in political and economic history, or will you find it in a supposed perverse character of all Argentinians? Are Germans really just nazi bastards deep down, or was nazism due to a combination of historical factors? This is where I'll call you an idealist and myself a materialist - the consciousness of a society depends on a variety of political, economical, geographical and social factors. Nobody is just born to be corrupt, born to be a nazi, etc. That's just something people say when they're too intellectually lazy to analyze all of the pieces of the puzzle. How easy is that? "Argentinians are corrupt". Too easy, Esteban, and highly unsatisfactory for those who live here and wish to improve their own society. What you are saying is that nothing can be done, as it is the very nature of Argentines to be corrupt. That is some pretty overwhelming cynicism. I hope you don't equally condemn your own compatriots in the same way. I think there is hope for them too. In fact, they could be our greatest allies. :)


In no way am I suggesting that the corruption that pervades Argentinian culture is an inherent quality of the people, nor that this has no relation to the history of the Argentinian people. Like Tim mentioned, the Argentines are an intelligent, educated people who bear remarkable similaritites to those of the developed Western nations. Nevertheless Argentina remains quagmired in third world conditions and no simple change of economic or political policy will change that. The problem from my perspective stems from the mindset that exists among the Argentine people today regardless of whether or not it is justified by historical events. The Argentine culture is one of being the victim, of avoiding responsibility, one that says no else respects the rules of the game so they should not either, everyone else cheats so I have to cheat and cheat better than everyone else just to keep up. This mentality makes a successful, free, open society, government, and economy incredibly difficult to achieve. I am not saying Argentine society can not improve, however, in order to grow and develop into the nation they are capable of being requires above all, a change in this culture, the way they perceive themselves and the world and this presents a much more difficult challenge in that it requires change on the most fundamental level.

[Madrigal]

No no, I think pretending to be Lenin is a very worthwhile use of one's time... and rendering documents from English to Spanish all day whilst most in her country are doing back breaking work shows she has real solidarity with her comrades.
Wow, do you even have a job, Ferrus? Maybe when you start earning a living you'll understand that people need to pay their bills. By the way, I render marxist analyses into Spanish too, and I donate a part of my salary to struggles every single month. So even when I'm not a militant I still don't represent the sad waste of oxygen that you do.

[Ferrus]

Maybe when you start earning a living you'll understand that people need to pay their bills.
Yes, I'm not an idiot, where did I imply that? And yes I do have a job, my point is I find it hypocritical of someone like you who is doing a middle class job with little physical labour or inherent danger being the voice of those who work these very jobs. Indeed such false consciouness and arrogance is what created the dictatorship of bureaucrats in Russia...

Oh and by the way have you ever considered spending your free time reading a book on introductory economics rather than translating the texts of a discredited ideology?

[Madrigal]

Yes, I'm not an idiot, where did I imply that? And yes I do have a job, my point is I find it hypocritical of someone like you who is doing a middle class job with little physical labour or inherent danger being the voice of those who work these very jobs. Indeed such false consciouness and arrogance is what created the dictatorship of bureaucrats in Russia...
Actually, I am not an industrial worker but by a broad definition, I am a worker in the sense that I do not own land or any means of production, and a part of the time I spend working is stolen for capitalist profits. Also, it is ignorant to assume that the middle class cannot be an ally of the working class. The middle class always divides itself into supporters and opposers of socialist policies, but without the support of a significant portion of the middle class, a workers' revolution is doomed to fail.

[Madrigal]

Oh and by the way have you ever considered spending your free time reading a book on introductory economics rather than translating the texts of a discredited ideology?
Have you ever considered spending your free time reading a book, any book at all? :D

[Ferrus]

Actually, I am not an industrial worker but by a broad definition, I am a worker in the sense that I do not own land or any means of production, and a part of the time I spend working is stolen for capitalist profits. Also, it is ignorant to assume that the middle class cannot be an ally of the working class. The middle class always divides itself into supporters and opposers of socialist policies, but without the support of a significant portion of the middle class, a workers' revolution is doomed to fail.
According to Lenin. But the Lenin also thought that the vanguard had the ability to create a state that would whither away in Engel's phrase... didn't quite happaen like that did it? Also his prediction of a revolution in Europe after the Russian revolution fell rather flat too didn't it?

And according to your broad definition, a worker is also a Lawyer, an Engineer an Accountant and a Doctor. :rolleyes:

Besides I've not seen many signs of an impending revolution here, who knows maybe they'll airlift in Hugo Chavez to start it...

[Madrigal]

According to Lenin. But the Lenin also thought that the vanguard had the ability to create a state that would whither away in Engel's phrase... didn't quite happaen like that did it? Also his prediction of a revolution in Europe after the Russian revolution fell rather flat too didn't it?

And according to your broad definition, a worker is also a Lawyer, an Engineer an Accountant and a Doctor. :rolleyes:
Do you know what I just realized, Ferrus? This thread has become a discussion between you and me, so I've just decided I have better things to do than attempt to educate a Purgatorian. You wanna know about the Russian Revolution? Read about it, don't look at me. I have no intention of using my time to help you. I help those who help themselves.

Adios. :)

[omnirook]

Harry was standing in the kitchen of one of New York's priciest restaurants, dipping a piece of bread into some gravy on a plate that was about to be served to a customer.

Harry: Umm ... Tastes good ... Here, kid, have a taste - go on, it's all right. Good, right? ... If it costs em a dollar to put something on a plate around here, you can bet that some Park Avenue cunt'll pay $300 to eat it. They got one Wall Street exec that comes in here 3, 4 times every month, spends $2500 for lunch every time, but leaves a shit tip ... The fucking guy's always got a different "nephew" w/him, always a skater-looking kid, you know, skate-boarders, about 16 years-old. Wines and dines the kid, the kid knowing the whole time what's coming when they get back to fucko's apartment. The kid's got to strip naked and sit still on a straight-backed chair while this sick fuck sticks lit cigarettes to his chest. Gets paid $200 per burn ... Wow, our boy looks shocked! ... It's true - and it's vanilla compared to what else goes on. Understand "vanilla" - that means, fluff, nothing truly hardcore. Anyway, let's talk. Fats, have some of somebody else's expensive lunch before they eat it on you, go ahead" ...

Fats: "Don't mind if I do!"

Harry: "Fats is ok - he's the type of guy that would fuck your wife and leave a cum stain on your pillow - that's just the way he is - but, that said, he'd give you the shirt off his back if he liked you ..."

[Ferrus]

Despite your insinuations of my supposed illiteracy I have clearly read more of the Russian Revolution than you have, and indeed of all the fun of the next 70 years too. So I would have to agree that I have better things to do than listen to the slavishly thought, tendentious and blinkered record of history as told by Marxists.

[zhang_bob]

Hell, zhang bob, looks like you've been busy googling! However that doesn't deny that England stole the Islands from Las Provincias Unidas del Rio de la Plata, so why don't you really just go play with your G.I. Joes or whatever boys play with these days?

Can`t you take it I am right? People like you give the left a bad name.




I'd totally defend the native's right to their land.

And if you are referring to Palestine, yes, I support the intifada.

I will be happy to have a debate, on that on the two threads shown.

http://www.intpcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10215&highlight=isreal
http://www.intpcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11042



This debate started with demagogic_schizoid, so for future reference I am addressing the ring-leader, not the clown.I think you will find your the clown.

[Ferrus]

I think you will find your the clown.
There really is no point mate, unless you can find a reference in Das Kapital her feeble mind is unable to register it.

[zhang_bob]

There really is no point mate, unless you can find a reference in Das Kapital her feeble mind is unable to register it.

Philosophy is to the real world as masturbation is to sex. --- Karl Marx

All I know is I'm not a Marxist.--- Karl Marx

Democracy is the road to socialism.--- Karl Marx

Go on, get out. Last words are for fools who haven't said enough. --- Karl Marx

[Nemesis]

Go on, get out. Last words are for fools who haven't said enough. --- Karl Marx
LOL

[sbw]

..."

your story beats the hell out of the ongoing discussion. I'll keep checking back for updates.

Scott

[Nemesis]

Then maybe you should comment on the posts you actually read. While the name-calling you provide is incredibly clever, perhaps you could throw in some actual substance as to why you believe he is demonstrating such unforgiveable ignorance. Because while I cant comment on his perspectives on the UAE I find his perspective on Argentina to be incredibly informed.
Do you read? I don't respond to people who I don't think deserve the time of day. I'm not going to tell you again.

[omnirook]

Harry, Bill, Fats and I all drew up chairs and sat down.

Harry: "Fats, the West Side - no."

Fats (looking hurt): Why not? ... That's my best caper in 5 years, goddammit!"

Harry: "Would be your best caper in 5 years, sorry, but a bigger knocker than you has already planted his flag on it - just, no ..."

Fats looked sullen, like any child who had been told "No!" about something he wanted very badly.

Harry: And, Fats, Jersey - be careful, huh. Make sure you get clearances from both sides and make sure that the envelopes have arrived before you move.

Fats (looking offended): "I always do the jobs the right way, you know that, Harry - you know that!"

Harry: "Just making sure, is all."

Harry lit a small cigar. He sipped his espresso, then looked at me: "Something bothering, you?"

Me: "Just thinking about that rich fuck and that kid ...

Harry (snort): "I told you - that's fly-shit. It's nothing compared to what goes down. The guy keeps a separate, 6 room apartment, just for that, so his wife won't know. The only stick of furniture in the apartment is that one chair ... The kid? Varies. Junkies. Teen-aged gamblers in debt to bookies. Runaways. Kids who have nobody - and only their youth and good looks to offer anybody. Sometimes it's a sick-in-the-head surbanite kid who thinks he likes S & M - he won't when he finds out that it's not all games in campy costumes. Where does the guy get the kids? There are services that will provide whatever you want, so long as you can pay. When I say 'whatever,' I mean WHATEVER ... It's not about the money, kid, never was. That's garland, dressing. It's about being able to do whatever you feel like doing to whomever you feel like doing it to, whenever, however ... Moishe says that your suits will be ready by next week. Good. Do these 2 limo jobs of Bill's - they'll get you grounded in the basics. Then, maybe, I got one other limo job for you, we'll see. If it's the one I'd like it to be, well, that'll start to put some finesse on your experience ... Bill! - make sure that this kid learns what I told you he needs to learn!"

Bill: "Just like you taught me, Uncle Harry - LOL!"

Harry, Bill, and Fats all had a good laugh.

Then Harry stopped laughing, looked directly at me, and said: "The only people who truly understand what it's all about are the Untouchables - you know, those poor bastards in India who are so low down on the totem pole that they have to walk w/brooms, so that they can sweep away their foot prints as they go along. Imagine not being good enough even to leave a foot print behind you, but having to do all of the community's most essential work. That's fucked up. But there it is. And it's here in New York, too - you'll see. You'll see."

[Hustler]

It's both. It will create wealth in the short term, but there is no potential within the society to use that wealth to develop a sustainable, stable and free society.

And you've come to this conclusion...out of thin air? Or maybe from your misinformed ideas about the "Arab world?" Oh, wait, maybe it's that whole "lacking a sense of liberty/opportunity" thing. You know, that idea which you put out there but completely failed to defend.


So what you're saying is that Dubai is at about the same level of development as a society which the USA was at 200 years ago.

So what you're saying is you lack reading comprehension and like to misinterpret things into strawmen? Great tactic for a 19 year old. The example was to show you why you were wrong about your sense of liberty argument. There was not a sense of liberty for the oppressed when America was being built, and there is no more sense of opportunity for the marginalized here now than there is for immigrant workers in the UAE. That was the heart of your argument, and it's wrong. You admit that the UAE is going to gain economically from its foray into capitalism, but you think some sort of lack of "sense of liberty" is going to ultimately hamstring them. That is an absurd argument when you consider how every great nation on the planet arose.


Also, America's modern industrial might has very little indeed to do with slavery. The wealth of the southern plantation owners was built on slavers, and they have been pretty much irrelevant for the last two centuries. You seem to underestimate the role of WASP values in making America the world's most powerful country, I maintain that they are the most important factor.

The point is the slaves certainly felt no sense of liberty or opportunity. That didn't stop America from eventually arising into a first world power. Neither did the exploitation of immigrant workers or continued slaying of Native Americans in the name of manifest destiny during the gilded age, which is precisely when America developed into a first-world power. Dubai is in its own gilded age.


So what you are saying is that in short there is moral equivalence between Genghis Khan and Abraham Lincoln.

So what you're saying is you like to play the 'so what you're saying' game? Please quote me an exact piece of text where I said there is a moral equivalence between Genghis Khan and Abraham Lincoln. That said, I will say flatly right here that there is a moral equivalence between Andrew Jackson and Genghis Khan, and Andrew Jackson is immortalized on our money.


Sorry to simplify (well no, not I'm not really) but my hope is that when put to you like this you will see the folly of your ways.

Please don't use the word simplify to mean misinterpret. They have different meanings. Just so you know, I'm going to ignore any further attempts by you to conjure strawmen from my arguments with your deliberate misinterpretations and 'so what you're saying.'


Dubai may not need my approval, but they will need the approval of the west as a whole, and it seems your Congress or voters don't trust them very much. Life could be very hard indeed for little Dubai if it's leaders don't start to make some changes, and soon, otherwise they are going to be caught between the insatiable demands of the crony capitalists on one hand, and the demand for a greater share of the wealth, plus the conservative third world attitudes, of the poor immigrant labourers. Unless these internal injustices are resolved it's going to all blow up sometime, as inevitably these things do throughout history. Still, at least in the meantime they will build some big hotels.

Dubai has the approval of countless westerners in the form of billions and billions of investment dollars. So what if a paranoid, xenophobic nation isn't comfortable having Dubai in control of its ports? That says more about America than Dubai. These "internal injustices" you speak of are the price of doing business. I don't care if you're building a hotel in Dubai or operating a steel plant in Pennsylvania, you're going to be caught between the insatiable demands of the crony capitalists on the one hand and the demand for a greater share of the wealth by the poor immigrant laborers on the other hand. It's a testament to Dubai's advancement that its problems mirror those of the United States. It's certainly superior to being caught between warring factions of misinformed laborers, corrupt politicians and other corrupt politicians that you encounter in Argentina.

[Hustler]

I am not saying Argentine society can not improve, however, in order to grow and develop into the nation they are capable of being requires above all, a change in this culture, the way they perceive themselves and the world and this presents a much more difficult challenge in that it requires change on the most fundamental level.

Yeah, kind of like how things are going in the UAE. Fundamental shifts in values and snowballing cultural change.

[Hustler]

"Buy," "Sell" ... blah, blah, blah ... "Options," "Possibilities" ... blah, blah, blah ... Rah! Rah! Rah! ...

Quit spamming us.

[zhang_bob]

However that doesn't deny that England stole the Islands. We did not steal it, we have just as much right to it as Argentina does.


If Iraq was illegal so was the invasion of the Falkland Islands by Argentina, as the UN Security Council issued a resolution, calling on Argentina to withdraw from the Islands. Spain has more of a claim to Gibraltar.

[Hustler]

and which part of it did you disagree with exactly?:rolleyes: It's easy to just call something retarded and move on, however when you are unable to actually point out what is wrong with it you simply show that you are even more retarded.

That's pretty much what you do with every one of your posts. I don't see why you should have a problem with sbw doing that to you.

[omnirook]

... continued ...

That night, Bill and I did go to the West Side - to meet some gypsies ...

Bill: You never met anybody like a gypsy. There's this guy out in Queens, over by Nassau - not stupid, has balls. Made about 20 million in cocaine, then got out clean, never looked back. Used to keep the shit in industrial waste cans, up this hill on this piece of property he owned off Francis Lewis. The place had a little house in front at the bottom of the hill, and he used to rent the house out. He kept the cans way at the top of the hill, and all the space in between the house and the cans he rented out as parking - you know, parking's no joke in this city; people'll pay 3, 4 hundred/month for parking, no problem. Anyway, who would look for several hundred pounds of raw cocaine in a place like that, where everybody and his mother was renting space? Nobody ever even asked what was in the cans. Anyway, one night one of the cars goes on fire, so the fire department comes to put it out. Naturally, the captain wants to know about these rusty looking cans sitting there, so the firemen open up the cans and find the cocaine. Meanwhile, the guy had been called by his tennant in the house, and he came rushing over. Cops were all over the place by time he got there, cops, dogs sniffing for more drugs, DEA agents, the DA, everybody. 'You mean to tell me that these drums were sitting on your property, and you didn't know about it" - the detective couldn't believe his ears. 'I hardly ever come over here' says Jacky - that's his name, by the way, you'll meet him soon - and, sure enough, they couldn't find one of his fingerprints anywhere on the property, not even on an ant-hill. That was life behind bars - and they couldn't even arrest him. They took the tennant in for questioning but had to let him go because his fingerprints were only in the house. The DA knows to this day that Jacky owned those drums, was shifting them for the Columbians, but has never been able to prove anything. Point is, the DA's got to shit in his own hand for Jacky, but the gypsies we're going to meet now not only made Jacky shit in his hand but made him eat it and say how good it tasted ... Nobody like a gypsy. Nobody."

[demagogic_schizoid]

In no way am I suggesting that the corruption that pervades Argentinian culture is an inherent quality of the people, nor that this has no relation to the history of the Argentinian people. Like Tim mentioned, the Argentines are an intelligent, educated people who bear remarkable similaritites to those of the developed Western nations. Nevertheless Argentina remains quagmired in third world conditions and no simple change of economic or political policy will change that. The problem from my perspective stems from the mindset that exists among the Argentine people today regardless of whether or not it is justified by historical events. The Argentine culture is one of being the victim, of avoiding responsibility, one that says no else respects the rules of the game so they should not either, everyone else cheats so I have to cheat and cheat better than everyone else just to keep up. This mentality makes a successful, free, open society, government, and economy incredibly difficult to achieve. I am not saying Argentine society can not improve, however, in order to grow and develop into the nation they are capable of being requires above all, a change in this culture, the way they perceive themselves and the world and this presents a much more difficult challenge in that it requires change on the most fundamental level.


Esteban has hit the nail on the head, Madrigal, if only you were prepared to listen to reason you would have to agree with he and I have said, rather than this ridiculous blathering about multi-national corporations, and how being unemployed gives one the right to ruin other people's lives and drag everyone down to your level of unhappiness. The discussion should have ended with this post.

[demagogic_schizoid]

And you've come to this conclusion...out of thin air? Or maybe from your misinformed ideas about the "Arab world?" Oh, wait, maybe it's that whole "lacking a sense of liberty/opportunity" thing. You know, that idea which you put out there but completely failed to defend.

You haven't defended a single thing you've said (unless you consider 1 Wikipedia link to be adequate), so why do you expect me to waste my time spoon-feeding you the blindingly obvious.




So what you're saying is you lack reading comprehension and like to misinterpret things into strawmen? Great tactic for a 19 year old. The example was to show you why you were wrong about your sense of liberty argument. There was not a sense of liberty for the oppressed when America was being built, and there is no more sense of opportunity for the marginalized here now than there is for immigrant workers in the UAE. That was the heart of your argument, and it's wrong. You admit that the UAE is going to gain economically from its foray into capitalism, but you think some sort of lack of "sense of liberty" is going to ultimately hamstring them. That is an absurd argument when you consider how every great nation on the planet arose.

Bollocks. The USA was founded on the principle that every man is created equal, the desire to create one nation under God, and a belief in no taxation without representation. It was born from a revolution and built on a set of values which made it economically powerful. It did not simply chase a quick buck and then try to build a coherent society as an afterthought (I don't even know if dubai has intention to do so). at times the principles of the US were violated but at least the culture of self-sufficiency, liberty and anticollectivism was always a cornerstone of people's lives. The point is not that some people in America didn't always get treated better than everyone in Dubai, it is that at least America was founded on a set of values. The economic success was a result of this. In the case of the UAE, the economic success owes itself almost purely to natural resources and tourism (an extremely fickle industry considering the current world situation). You have shown me nothing to suggest that there is anything admirable about Dubai or the culture of it's people. They simply appear to be leeches growing fat off the riches of the land and others, and one day I wouldn't be surprised if they were found out. Now if you want to convince me that I'm wrong, go ahead, like I said, these are the things I believe and although I don't personally give a fuck one way or the other, if they are untrue surely you will be able to explain to me why, or even better show me evidence. You have done neither.


Please don't use the word simplify to mean misinterpret. They have different meanings. Just so you know, I'm going to ignore any further attempts by you to conjure strawmen from my arguments with your deliberate misinterpretations and 'so what you're saying.'

You like your strawmen, don't you? Ignore me all you want. You're the one who asked me about Argentina and then tried to make me change my mind reagrding Dubai, I am quite happy to respond to you but don't act like you're the one doing me a favour.



Dubai has the approval of countless westerners in the form of billions and billions of investment dollars. So what if a paranoid, xenophobic nation isn't comfortable having Dubai in control of its ports? That says more about America than Dubai.

Slag off America all you want if you satisfies your sense of guilt and self-loathing, it's your country not mine. :)



These "internal injustices" you speak of are the price of doing business. I don't care if you're building a hotel in Dubai or operating a steel plant in Pennsylvania, you're going to be caught between the insatiable demands of the crony capitalists on the one hand and the demand for a greater share of the wealth by the poor immigrant laborers on the other hand.

There is no genuine material poverty in the west, and the business climate is much more open and much less corrupt than in the third world. You really think the term "crony capitalism" can be applied in the same way to American industrialists and the Arab ruling classes?

[Hustler]

These are some real gems. If you really believe this stuff, you're brainwashed beyond hope:


The USA was founded on the principle that every man is created equal, the desire to create one nation under God, and a belief in no taxation without representation.

Ignorance.


In the case of the UAE, the economic success owes itself almost purely to natural resources and tourism (an extremely fickle industry considering the current world situation).

Ignorance.


Now if you want to convince me that I'm wrong, go ahead, like I said, these are the things I believe and although I don't personally give a fuck one way or the other

A wholesale admission of ignorance.


Slag off America all you want if you satisfies your sense of guilt and self-loathing, it's your country not mine. :)

Baseless assumption and ineffectual ad hominem.


There is no genuine material poverty in the west

The most ridiculous thing you've posted yet.


You really think the term "crony capitalism" can be applied in the same way to American industrialists and the Arab ruling classes?

Thinly-veiled racism/xenophobia.

I've reached the conclusion that you are simply too ignorant to even understand my arguments. I think I know how Einstein felt when he was questioned by scientists who refused to believe his predictions about the precession of Mercury's elliptical orbit. They were completely ignorant about the logic of general relativity, much as you are completely ignorant about world history, economic growth and what it takes to make a great nation. Sadly, you don't let this stop you from plowing ahead with your wholly preposterous assertions. You simply can't understand my arguments and, as they keep sailing far, far over your head, you feebly attempt to redirect the discussion or reword what I say as a strawman that you can understand and attack with your parrot-like rhetoric. Talk to me again after you've gotten your education and actually understand how to think.

Bottom line: the UAE will be a first world country before Argentina. I understand why. You do not, but perhaps you will in due time.

[Nemesis]

Fine, Esteban. This is why I have no respect for the man.


Bollocks.
Reason #1

The USA was founded on the principle that every man is created equal,
Sure. Provided you were a white Christian male.

the desire to create one nation under God,
Wrong. That wasn't even added into the pledge of allegience until 1953.

and a belief in no taxation without representation.
PffffBAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. That might be the way it used to be, but these days, it's no taxation, provided you have representation, meaning that the biggest corporations basically install politicians and then reap the monetary rewards.

It was born from a revolution and built on a set of values which made it economically powerful.
And just like the UAE will be able to say, it took about 150- 200 years for that to completely kick in.

It did not simply chase a quick buck and then try to build a coherent society as an afterthought (I don't even know if dubai has intention to do so). at times the principles of the US were violated but at least the culture of self-sufficiency, liberty and anticollectivism was always a cornerstone of people's lives.
Tell that to Teddy, who realized that in the early 1900's the only way to AVOID communism and socialism was to create things such as the social security network, and provide for protection of the working class.

The point is not that some people in America didn't always get treated better than everyone in Dubai, it is that at least America was founded on a set of values.
Every country was. The fact that he disagrees with a society's value system doesn't invalidate it as one.

The economic success was a result of this.
The economic success of the United States had to with a wealth of natural resources, a huge amount of luck in its early years, and a large number of public works projects aimed at benefiting THE COLLECTIVE. For instance, the Erie Canal, the hoover damn, and so fourth. Free trade helped tremendously yes, but you can't trade if you have nothing to trade with and no infrastructure with which to trade.

In the case of the UAE, the economic success owes itself almost purely to natural resources and tourism (an extremely fickle industry considering the current world situation).
And the United States' doesn't?

Gold, Cotton, Salt, Spices, waterways, etc. And of course, those monuments to travel and tourism, Walt Disney World, Disneyland, Tokyo Disneyland, Disneyland Paris, Hong Kong Disneyland, and all the future planned disney vacation business ventures, including Shanghai Disneyland, Bombay Disneyland, New Delhi Disneyland, and London Disneyland. Not to mention, all the other tourism destinations, such as Hollywood, LA, NYC, Florida, Boston, Chicago, our wealth of national parks.

The point is, you can tout personal freedom and economic oppurtunity all you want, more power to you, I'm right there beside you, but don't go off painting it as God's saving grace to humanity. No one here likes George Bush, so you would do well not to act like a Republican party lapdog.

You have shown me nothing to suggest that there is anything admirable about Dubai or the culture of it's people.
Sure he has. This guy just hasn't listened. Besides that, it's mostly a matter of personal preference anyway. Before I get pissed off though, I'm going to stop responding, because I read the rest of his response, and basically it says to me "I don't want anything to do with those sand niggers, I wish they were gone from the planet," or did you suddenly forget the part where he refers to the middle east as a cancer to the planet.

Are there any other questions you had for me Esteban?

[Conan]

a country must either adopt, or be seen as moving toward, the following golden rules: making the private sector the primary engine of its economic growth, maintaining a low rate of inflation and price stability, shrinking the size of its state bureaucracy, maintaining as close to a balanced budget as possible, if not a surplus, eliminating and lowering tariffs on imported goods, removing restrictions on foreign investment, getting rid of quotas and domestic monopolies, increasing exports, privatizing state-owned industries and utilities, deregulating capital markets and making its currency convertible, opening its industries, stock, and bond markets to direct foreign ownership and investment, deregulating its economy to promote as much domestic competition as possible? (Friedman 1999: 86-7)

The Golden Straitjacket.

[Conan]

Sure he has. This guy just hasn't listened. Besides that, it's mostly a matter of personal preference anyway. Before I get pissed off though, I'm going to stop responding, because I read the rest of his response, and basically it says to me "I don't want anything to do with those sand niggers, I wish they were gone from the planet," or did you suddenly forget the part where he refers to the middle east as a cancer to the planet.


I cant comment on the UAE debate because honestly I dont know enough about the UAE. As a native Argentinian I do know a thing or two about Argentina, and found his analysis of the country to be very good. From my perspective, you just picked the wrong post of his to mock especially given the fact that you admitted to not even having read it.


The point is, you can tout personal freedom and economic oppurtunity all you want, more power to you, I'm right there beside you, but don't go off painting it as God's saving grace to humanity. No one here likes George Bush, so you would do well not to act like a Republican party lapdog.

Personally I think you should welcome the fact that someone brings a conservative viewpoint to this site. Wheres the fun if everyone here subscribes to the same political ideology?

[demagogic_schizoid]

Hustler, you really are deluded if you think I don't understand your arguments. there really is nothing remotely intelligent about the point you have been trying, and failing, to make, and in fact I could make your arguments better than you. All I wanted was to see you snap. Now you have, I can go to bed. ;)

And Nemesis, why is it that people always put the words "republican" together with "lapdog". What is it you think I stand to gain by being an English neo-con exactly? And I suppose you aren't at all a lap-dog for going along with the liberal consensus. You crazy loner you.

[omnirook]

Bill and I got to a "Psychic Reader and Adviser" shop at about 9 pm. A young woman in a flowing, silk sari was seated outside.

Woman: "Hello, Bill. Tari's upstairs. The door is open."

Bill and I went up the narrow staircase and went into this small office. A middle-aged man was seated at a table, having tea, smoking a cigarette.

Tari: "Ah, Bill, my friend, how are you?"

Bill and Tari embraced and pecked each other on the cheeks.

Bill: "Good, good. And you?"

Tari: "The same as ever, Bill, the same as ever - wonderful! ... And who's this?"

Bill: "This is the guy I was telling you about, the one Harry wanted to meet you."

Tari and I shook hands.

Tari: "Ah ... So, tell me, why do you think Harry wanted you to meet me?"

Me: "I guess he feels that there's something that you can teach me."

Tari: "Oh, there are a lot of things that I could teach you - but which ones does Harry have in mind? Sit, sit ... Woman! Tea for our guests, what's wrong w/you! She gets lazier all the time, Bill."

Bill: LOL! "Lazy - you gypsy men are the laziest fucks that ever were ... They don't work. The women do the work. All of it. The women make the money, they do the cleaning, they do the shopping and cooking. The men sit and drink tea and smoke cigarettes all day - that and take the money that their women earn, every penny of it ... I wish I could get a deal like that. My Irene works, yeah, but she sure don't hand me her earnings every day."

Tari: "What can I say? ... Harry! Now there is a man. And he's taken a liking to this young man. Let me see."

Tari reached into his jacket pocket and took out a pair of glasses and put them on. For several minutes, he sat, just looking at me, as I self-consciously sipped the tea I had been given. Finally, "Ah ..." Then Tari took off his glasses and put them back into his jacket pocket.

Tari: "What do you think of my accent?"

Me: "It's ... what kind of accent is it?"

Tari (in the unmistable accent of a New York native): "I doan -na. I wuz bawnen Noo Yawk - like yous two ... I made up the accent. A little pinch of this, a little pinch of that, heavy on the Carpathian because that reminds them of Dracula - Oooo - I did Legosi till I got it just right, then I tempered it w/a touch of Russian. What do you think?"

Me: "It's ... pretty good ..."

Bill: "It's damned good!"

Tari: LOL! "Harry. Harry wants you to understand the gypsies - why?"

Me: "Well, if I knew that, I might not need to be here ..."

Tari: "Eh ... Ah ... OK ... It can only be because he feels that what we know is worth learning, no?"

Me: "Uh, sure ..."

Tari "Good. We'll begin. In the world, there are 3 things: 1) the way that people would like the world to be; 2) the way that people think the world is; and 3) the way that the world really is. All 3 are going on all the time, and a good gypsy knows which of them he's dealing w/at any given moment ... That's your first lesson. That you must understand. Otherwise, there is no point in going on ... The next time that we meet, you will explain the lesson to me to show that you have thought about it and understand it on at least some shallow level."

Bill and I finished our tea, said good-bye and left.

Me: "What am I supposed to do w/that?"

Bill: LOL! "Don't worry. Harry has you covered. This first limo job will illustrate the lesson for you. If you've got the potential that Harry sees, then you'll put it all together, no problem ... Let's get a cab. We need to get uptown fast. There's something I want to show you."

[Hustler]

Hustler, you really are deluded if you think I don't understand your arguments. there really is nothing remotely intelligent about the point you have been trying, and failing, to make, and in fact I could make your arguments better than you. All I wanted was to see you snap. Now you have, I can go to bed. ;)

If you understand my arguments, then please explain why I am right that the UAE will be a first world country before Argentina. If you can't, then you don't understand.

[Nemesis]

And I suppose you aren't at all a lap-dog for going along with the liberal consensus. You crazy loner you.
That's one thing you got right tonight. I'm socially liberal and financially conservative. I was pointing out to you that you should probably get your information and base your opinions on something MORE than the BBC.

[Nemesis]

Personally I think you should welcome the fact that someone brings a conservative viewpoint to this site. Wheres the fun if everyone here subscribes to the same political ideology?
I have no problem with different viewpoints. I have a problem with viewpoints that are based upon misinformation and propaganda, hence the reference to a Republican lapdog.

Also, you don't have to be familiar with the UAE to shoot down the post of his that I just contradicted. You have to have a grasp of US history.

[Nemesis]

And Nemesis, why is it that people always put the words "republican" together with "lapdog". What is it you think I stand to gain by being an English neo-con exactly? And I suppose you aren't at all a lap-dog for going along with the liberal consensus. You crazy loner you.
PS- Don't you have anything to say about all the other stuff I posted in response to you?

[Zephyrus055]

There is nothing wrong with an empire or imperialism. Exploitation is a part of life.

If you do not like being exploited, then struggle to be the master.

[Nemesis]

What is nothing wrong with an empire or imperialism? Exploitation is a part of life.

If you do not like being exploited, then struggle to be the master.
We're doing fine without you, thanks. Please go back to chasing ESFJ ass.

[Zephyrus055]

We're doing fine without you, thanks. Please go back to chasing ESFJ ass.
You would be fine without a computer. Thanks.

[Nemesis]

You would be fine without a computer. Thanks.
Is that because I wouldn't be reading your posts anymore?

[Zephyrus055]

Is that because I wouldn't be reading your posts anymore?
Great way to miss the point.

The fact that I am not adding to your comfort does not mean that I should exit this thread, you selfish creep!

[Hustler]

There is nothing wrong with an empire or imperialism. Exploitation is a part of life.

If you do not like being exploited, then struggle to be the master.

I don't know if anyone has said otherwise. Except maybe Madrigal.:joft:

[Nemesis]

Great way to miss the point.

The fact that I am not adding to your comfort does not mean that I should exit this thread, you selfish creep!
If you're tired of being the bitch, maybe you should try to be the butch.

[Zephyrus055]

I don't know if anyone has said otherwise. Except maybe Madrigal.:joft:
Exactly! She among others were complaining about western imperialism and defending a moral position that is not empirically falsifiable. I decided to add a little something in response to that liberal nonsense.


If you're tired of being the bitch, maybe you should try to be the butch.
Are you on meth?

[distraction tactics]

Oh goody, a nemesis/imperator exchange!

[Nemesis]

Are you on meth?
No. I simply think you're a twit. (http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?p=330597#post330597)

[Architectonic]

Oh goody, a nemesis/imperator exchange!

This thread clearly marks a low point on INTPCentral......

[demagogic_schizoid]

If you understand my arguments, then please explain why I am right that the UAE will be a first world country before Argentina. If you can't, then you don't understand.


Oh is that what you were trying to say? Bloody hell, I stopped thinking about Argentina long ago.

Right. UAE will be a first world country before Argentina, because the UAE is currently undergoing it's own equivalent of an industrial revolution, and embracing the reality of the modern world, while Argentina is not. Argentina is living in the past. The fact that the UAE is currently a brutal and unequal society with terrible social tensions, repression and extensive poverty is irrelevant, because this has been the case with all industrial revolutions. We have no right to judge from the west, and to deny them their progress, when we only enjoy the freedoms and wealth we do thanks to an equally brutal but necessary process which happened in our own countries in the 18th, 19th and early 20th centuries.

Basically your argument is that as UAE is at the same level we were at when we were developing, and apparently travelling in the same direction, it follows that they will one day be at the level we are at now. As Argentina is not, it follows that they will not.

This much I am fairly sure you would agree with. correct me if I'm wrong. Now allow me to indulge in a little speculation if I may. I think that you think there is no substantial difference between the first world and the third world, except that we have more money. You don't seem to actually believe that we deserve our prosperity in any sense other in the direct sense that we have attained it, and therefore should be allowed to keep it. You seem to be believe that there is no ideal as such, at least not in the terms of economics, and that the attainment of wealth is progress in itself (in an an economic sense), rather than a symptom of a wider strength as a nation, society or culture. I don't believe this. I belive not that we in the west are advanced because we are rich, but that we are rich because we are advanced. The fact that no Arab country, or indeed any Islamic society, has come anywhere our levels of human rights or economic development (in the sense of a large, self-sufficient middle class, complete lack of material poverty among even the poorest in society) is not, for me, simply a fact that can be changed when an Arab country shows signs of progress. It is a fact that is rooted in the differences in our cultures. You seem to believe that any form of gaining money is acceptable and proof in itself of a person or country's success. I believe money is only worth what you can do with it, and I don't believe that the UAE will be able to ever become truly civilised. You don't, apparently believe in civilisation as anything other than "survival of the fittest", or that the richer a society is, the more civilised it is, and consequently you don't seem to have much faith in civilisation as a whole. Perhaps you don't even believe in the concept, and you think that all it takes to be a developed country is to be rich.

I understand this argument perfectly well, and have known this since long before you shoved your nose into a dispute between my fathers country and my mothers country. However, I just find this argument to be simplisitc and plain wrong, and have piked holes in it from the start. Despite my absolute ignorance about the UAE, [racist slur edited by Vagabond] I think it takes more to become a fist world country than simply economic development. You don't. You think liberty and democracy comes after economic development. I think some cultures have those values as a foundation, or at the very least have the potential for those ideas, while others don't. Like I said, UAE is irrelevant to me and I'm happy to have my mind canged, but even you must admit that you have shown me no evidence to the contrary.

Now, maybe it's you who doesn't understand my argument.

Edited by Vagabond to remove racist comment.

[demagogic_schizoid]

PS- Don't you have anything to say about all the other stuff I posted in response to you?


I joined an INTP forum for one reason. Can you guess what that might be? Now, we both live in free countries, so I'm not saying you should be banned. Maybe just shot. ;)

[Hustler]

Basically your argument is that as UAE is at the same level we were at when we were developing, and apparently travelling in the same direction, it follows that they will one day be at the level we are at now. As Argentina is not, it follows that they will not.

Just as I suspected. You have no idea what I've been talking about this whole time.


Now allow me to indulge in a little speculation if I may.

Far be it from me to deny you your only source of reaching conclusions. I mean, I know you wouldn't to actually take the time to learn about something before you speak so irrationally and bombastically about it.


I think that you think there is no substantial difference between the first world and the third world, except that we have more money.

Oh no, it looks like your baseless speculation has failed you again. You just don't have any idea (a) what you're talking about or (b) what I'm talking about. True or false: The UAE will be a first world country before Argentina? Just take your best guess.


Despite my absolute ignorance about the UAE, [racist slur edited by Vagabond] I think it takes more to become a fist world country than simply economic development.

I think this pretty much sums it up. You are ignorant (and admit it), you speak about things you have no idea about and, when all else fails, you are reduced to using racial slurs and stereotypical, preconceived notions to bolster your incorrect conclusions. Bravo. You're a world-class fool.

[charred_heart]

Oh and,


http://www.intpcentral.com/uploads/mexico86.jpg
.can't beat that. Unless you're Brazilian

[charred_heart]

Hustler, England has a better economy than Argentina because it has a healthier society and better government. The culture is one of liberty, respect for the law, and prudence. Argentina has none of this. These aren't reasons not to love it. They are reasons to become frustrated with it, to argue constantly with it's assumptions and to point out it's many flaws, which I do constantly on many Argentine blogs. However, as a personal choice, I prefer the Argentine people on a one-one basis. I only have 3 friends in England, in Argentina I have lots. In England I don't want any more friends, in Argentina, I do. Not to the point of extroversion, but to the point of remaining slightly schizoid but with the ability to indulge in a little demagoguery.

Also, I am 19, I still want to graduate (I am currently working) - I am going to study LatAm studies and spend a year in Argentina. After that, who knows, but economically it wouldn't make sense to go to Argentina.

Furthermore, RE your sterling defence of the Middle East - PPP per capita doesn't mean much when the wealth is concentrated almost exclusively in the hands of the country's ruling family and expats. Most of the natives are illiterate unwashed peasants, the women are not allowed to vote, and they have absolutely no freedom whatsoever. You can say what you like about Argentina, but the fact remains that whatever the flaws of this beautiful country, it in no way compares to the cancer that is the Arab world.:rofl:

I'm a peasant on a skyscraper! (http://www.intuitivecentral.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3126)


Apparently it takes a bloody long time to find a complimentary link about the UAE.

And no, I wouldn't risk having acid thrown on me or being forced to witness an honour killing simply for a cheap shag. I will stay right away from that part of the world altogether thankyou very much and stick to a country where even the poor people are treated like humans (most of the time), and where a significant proportion of the population doesn't believe that they would go to heaven instantly if they died whilst killing me.

With regards to the UAE, I have firm reasons for believing that the Islamic faith itself is an obstacle to genuine progress and liberty. I very much doubt that the UAE or Dubai will be on a par with the west in 20 years, 30 years, or any time soon.

In the case of the UAE, the economic success owes itself almost purely to natural resources and tourism (an extremely fickle industry considering the current world situation).

The fact that the UAE is currently a brutal and unequal society with terrible social tensions, repression and extensive poverty is irrelevant, because this has been the case with all industrial revolutions.

The fact that no Arab country, or indeed any Islamic society, has come anywhere our levels of human rights or economic development (in the sense of a large, self-sufficient middle class, complete lack of material poverty among even the poorest in society) is not, for me, simply a fact that can be changed when an Arab country shows signs of progress.
You are making a fool of yourself.

[charred_heart]

Those not included in this group are immigrants who moved there despite full knowledge that they would not be getting a piece of the pie (directly, anyway). I guess it beats living in Libya or Sudan or Egypt or Pakistan or wherever else they came from. So, yes, you're right that half of the population is far richer than the other half. But I wonder what the concentration of wealth in Argentina looks like. How much of the total wealth in the country is in the hands of the wealthiest 20%? You're the LatAm studies major, so perhaps you know this.$2000 / month untaxed is not bad for a first time job man. Especially when that's what the foriegners get. The locals earn up to 3 times that.

The lowest salary here is $135 / month with food and accommodation for street cleaners. No poverty in the U.A.E yet.

[sbw]

:rofl:

I'm a peasant on a skyscraper! (http://www.intuitivecentral.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3126)

thanks, charred heart--the second pic looks a little like miami.

scizoid--shut the fuck up. you're even stupider than nemesis and hustler have described; I think they went easy on you.

Scott

[charred_heart]

thanks, charred heart--the second pic looks a little like miami.

scizoid--shut the fuck up. you're even stupider than nemesis and hustler have described; I think they went easy on you.

Scott
heh, I was thinking to myself schizoid was talking so much crap someone will tell him to shut up soon :lol:

[demagogic_schizoid]

Just as I suspected. You have no idea what I've been talking about this whole time.

Not really, I summed up what you've been saying pretty well. How about you go through my description of your argument and point out to me which parts of it are incorrect. Or show me anything you have posted which contradicts my conclusion. I think you were winning this argument once, and now find it hard to believe that you're not, so instead you walk away from the debate and resort to a slanging match.




Far be it from me to deny you your only source of reaching conclusions. I mean, I know you wouldn't to actually take the time to learn about something before you speak so irrationally and bombastically about it.

What makes you think I want to learn about UAE? I never expressed an interest. I was here chatting about Argentina with Madrigal and Ferrus, and suddenly you showed up with some crap about Dubai. All I've done is pick holes in your arguments, and you've been unable to respond. Also, I know I kick ass on debates about topics which interest me and which I have bothered to learn about, I can provide you with links of many debates I won if you like. However, this has just been a bit of fun for me, I went on my suspicions - and you have failed absolutely to prove me wrong. If you want to do so, tell me what was wrong with my last post, and you might get some acknowledgement.




Oh no, it looks like your baseless speculation has failed you again. You just don't have any idea (a) what you're talking about or (b) what I'm talking about. True or false: The UAE will be a first world country before Argentina? Just take your best guess.

I very much doubt either of them will be first world any time soon, however I personally love Argentines and have no interest in UAE. It's irrational. I never tried to rationalise it. I never tried to change your mind. You wanted me to agree with you for some reason, and I have no idea what that may be.




I think this pretty much sums it up. You are ignorant (and admit it), you speak about things you have no idea about and, when all else fails, you are reduced to using racial slurs and stereotypical, preconceived notions to bolster your incorrect conclusions. Bravo. You're a world-class fool.

You started a thread about Argentina. You know nothing about Argentina. The main reason you don't think it will be a first world country is because of what I told you myself. Also, I remmebr you saying "Mexicans> Argentines". So let's not talk about ignorant generalisations and racial slurs.

BTW I met an Argentine who spotted my football shirt in the gym today, we had a great chat. Another one to notch up!

[omnirook]

Bill and I took a taxi up to Midtown. We got out of the taxi, went into a deli, got coffee, then went back outside to drink the coffee.

After a few moments, Bill lit a cigarette, pointed to a side doorway in one of the area hotels, and said "Watch."

Me: "What am I watching?"

Bill: "Just watch."

We stood there watching for about 20 minutes.

Bill: "What do you see?"

Me: "Nothing - what's to see?"

Bill laughed.

Bill: "That's what everyone sees - nothing. That's what everyone wants to see - nothing. Open your fucking eyes!"

I stood there watching for another 20 minutes.

Bill: "Now, tell me, what did you see?"

Me: "A steady stream of people coming and going."

Bill: "Any women?"

Me: "I don't think so."

Bill laughed again.

Bill: "You don't think so, huh. Not one woman. All men. What did the men look like - look - it's still going on, here's a good example, what do you see?"

Me: "I see a young hispanic guy in jeans and a denim jacket coming out and there's a business man w/a briefcase going in - so?"

Bill "So -" Bill gave a good chuckle. "He says 'so.'"

Me: "Yeah, so?"

Bill (looking indulgant): "This hotel has a tearoom, operates between the hours of 7 and 11, on weeknights."

Me: "OK - they have a tearoom - OK ... So, what?"

Bill (laughing): "They don't serve no tea in there!"

Me: "What do they serve?"

Bill: "Cock! ... That guy w/the briefcase is probably on his knees right now, worshipping the cock of some Mexican bus boy that he wouldn't even look at when he was having lunch at 21's today. Remember what Tari told you ... You didn't see this going on, the same way that most people don't see it going on - and for the same reason - you didn't want to see it going on ... Goes on all over. Every day, all day. Got 'tearooms' all over the city, all over the world. The cops don't bother about it until some civilian prude happens in, sees what's going on, and makes a complaint. Then there's a raid, everybody gets arrested and fined for public lewdness, then they go find another 'tearoom' and get back to business."

Me: "Are the Mexican guys getting paid?"

Bill: "No. They're 'rough trade' - guys who are hard up for female companionship, who don't mind letting a fag suck them off. Always been that way where there are large numbers of young, male immigrants who have no access to women. That's one of the hidden reasons for illegal immigration being tolerated ... You got a few rich cunts up on Park Avenue who like to get banged hard by illegals while their husbands are at work; those guys get paid, yeah, it's called 'dirt dick' - getting fucked w/o mercy by a guy you wouldn't spit on in front of your friends - but, no, in the 'tearoom,' it's just guys looking for a warm, wet hole to stick into. This is where your executives come on their way home to their wives and kids; this is where your old fags come when they're no longer getting any second looks down in the fag bars. They got the most experience, are the best cocksuckers, so the 'rough trade' don't care if they're old ... It's all about cock. A hung guy, a guy w/a big one, shit, man, if he's not using it to his advantage, he's a fool, could get a $1000 an hour to work over some rich twat's holes - all of her holes. Wait till you see the shit w/the limos - what goes on w/the celebrities in this town. One, I won't tell you who it is - want your eyes to pop out of your head when you see her - see picks up one young illegal after the other, especially the Mexicans, but Russians and Poles, too. The guys have to have at least 9 inches to qualify, that's bare minimum ..."

Bill started to chuckle: "What? You think I'm lying?"

Me: "No, it's just - shocking ..."

Bill: "It's nothing. 'Vanilla,' like Harry said. It's all about sex, my friend. Everybody wants either a big, hard cock - or a nice, warm snatch ... Speaking of nice, warm snatches, Irene should be along just about now."

I had never met Bill's wife before. My God, she was beautiful! Here came this tall, slender, shapely Russian woman, couldn't be anything but a Russian - had those Russian eyes, so blue that you could see that they were blue at 100 yards, even at night. She had light brown hair, a perfect smile, and she was ALL WOMAN -wow!

Bill: "Irene, this is Mark. Mark, this is my wife, Irene."

We shook hands. I liked her immediately, formed a crush on her w/in minutes, still have a crush on her, though, because she's Bill's wife, I would never try anything.

Bill: "Irene was an art dealer in Russia, worked for the government, that is, selling or buying masterpieces, depending on whether the government needed or had money. She's got a PhD in Art History."

Irene: "Not important, Bill, not here, where I have yet to make - connection. I working on that, but - not important yet. What important is Sonia back from Virginia." ("Wirgeenia" - oh, the accent got me!)

Bill: "Good, good."

Irene: "OK to talk in front Mark, no?"

Bill: "Harry says you can trust him w/your life, Irene."

Irene nodded approval. "So, she back, has 500 - what you call them - cases."

Bill: "You'll meet Sonia, Mark. She should be a man - looks like a man, she's brutally handsome (LOL!) - but what BALLS! You could get deported over 3 cartons, cause 2 cartons is the limit, but here she drives right up the Turnpike w/500 cases - that's 10, 000 cartons, man."

Me: "Cigarettes?"

Bill: "Yeah, comps at the casinos in Atlantic City. Fucking degenerate, junkie gamblers get these comp points at the casinos, good for anything in the shops. It's cigarettes for free. We collect the comp points off the gamblers - who always owe money - then cash in for the cigarettes, a little at a time, when there's 500 cases full, we bring em up here and unload them for 2 dollars a pack ... Sonia's got balls, man, walked, not crawled, accross the East German border, carrying her runt of a nephew on her back. Wait till you see that fucking criminal! He's a little over 5 feet tall, but hard as they come, had one beat down from the Russian police after another - has scars on his pretty face - oh, yeah, he'd be real good-looking if it weren't for the beatings he took. Him and Sonia - he's her nephew, blood nephew - but they're a couple, fucking sick, right?"

I just shrugged.

Bill: "Right. You'd better shrug it off. Sonia would - and could - wring the life out of you, if you said anything about it, so just accept it. She makes money 'out of thin air,' as Harry says, so, if she wants to fuck her blood nephew, everybody looks the other way. And don't mess w/Nicki - that's his name - he might be small, but he's dangerous. Sonia carried him across the border because he'd been shot by the border guards. Just picked him up, put that look of hers on her face, and started walking. The guards were frozen ... You got to learn about the look. You might need it one day. Get up against a wall and have the guts to give the look, and an army will back down and let you pass."

Me: "What's the 'look'?"

Bill: "The look is THE look. It says, if I go, you go w/me. I'll drag you kicking and screaming into the pit of Hell w/me, so back off. That's the look."

Irene: "I got caviar. We go eat now."

Bill: "Yeah, let's go."

Bill, Irene, and I walked to their apartment on the West Side. We sat down and had this great meal that Irene put together in no time. Russians serve food w/a grace and elegance that you don't see in the United States. Just the way that the food is served makes you want to eat it.

When Irene went to bed, Bill and I went to meet Harry. Harry wanted to talk to me.

[sbw]

omni, have you read 'less than zero' ?

Scott

[omnirook]

... continued ...

To understand any point of view, you need to have it's background. Scholars understand that; that's why they make so many citations and foot notes. Ordinary people understand it, too - that's why they tell stories. That's why I've been telling this story. These are my citations and footnotes ... When I joined this Forum, I knew that most of the people on it would be college grads or students who had lived fairly "vanilla" lives. I knew that I would be, well, not as respected because I have no degree. Understandable - people love distinctions. That's why an additional fortune is made at the gas pumps - fair, good, best gas, the price going up w/the grade. It's not just about getting better gas - it's also about buying better gas. Luxury is not only for its own sake. There's a thrill that comes w/being able to afford luxury. That's why everything is marketed in grades of quality, even if there is no real difference in the quality. Make something seem "exclusive," and people will line up to buy it. It never occurs to them that they are standing in a line that includes just about everybody else. No. People see only what they want to see - usually.

Anyway, Bill and I went to meet Harry.

Bill: "This is a rare honor, my friend. Harry having you up to his apartment is, well, it's like a royal summons to the palace. Big shots would sell their young to sit down in Harry's parlor. That's why Harry rarely ever invites anybody up. Be honored!"

Me: "I am."

Harry's apartment was ordinary, a 2 bedroom flat on the West Side, a second-story walk-up. It was furnished respectably, in good taste, but there was little that couldn't be afforded by his neighbors. Harry's wife, Louise, answered the door. Harry was pure Irish, had a faint broag from before he came to the US as a kid, but Louise was Italian, obviously so, a dark-skinned, plump woman, who must have been stunning when she was young - still pretty, in a matronly way.

Louise: (Kissing Bill affectionately) "Your uncle is in the living room. Go right in."

Louise gave me a hug, though I'd only met her once before.

Harry was in their living room, listening to Bach w/his eyes closed. Bill reverently waited until the fugue was over, when Harry opened his eyes.

Harry: "Bill! And Mark! Sit, sit, we'll talk after Louise is done fussing over her guests ... Meanwhile, Mark, do you know Bach?"

Me: "Sure. I like him, too."

Harry: "Learn to love him ... His music - it teaches you about ebb and flow, all the disparate parts coming together, breaking up, coming together, breaking up - just the way the world works."

Bill: "Harry believes that music has lessons - even the crap that's on the radio these days, fucking disco shit."

Harry: "Don't knock disco - it says a lot about our society. It says that people want escape - and are willing to pay for it! Listen to what the kids are listening to, even if it hurts your ears, and you'll know what'll being going on in the world in ten years time. Classical music - that's for what has always been going on in the world, understand?"

Me: "I think so."

Harry: "Good. He thinks so ..."

Louise brought in espresso and pastry and fussed and clucked as she served it. "Now I'll leave my boys alone. I'm going to bed. Harry, just put the dishes in the sink. (Kissing Harry) Good-night."

Harry: (After Louise had gone from the room) "40 fucking years, Mark, 40 fucking years, and I never cheated on my wife, not once. Get a woman like that woman, cheat on her, and you deserve to die - you're a piece of shit, just like those degenerates you were looking at tonight by the hotel."

Harry wiped away a few tears, then lit a cigarette. "I got to give this shit up - but I won't, so why talk about it ... So, what did you see tonight?"

Me: "I saw men, young and old, coming and going at a hotel, where, I'm told, they use the mens' room for quickies."

Harry: "Right. What does that tell you?"

Me: "Tells me that I've gone through life, not seeing what's been going on right in front of my eyes."

Harry: "Good. All day long, every day, for 100 thousand years, people - men AND women - have been plotting how to get laid in a world that wants to keep them from getting laid. People are so ashamed of their desires, their needs, that other people can make the biggest fortune in the world out of satisfying those desires. The whole reason that sex is controlled is to keep people down and to make money off it - and, in the past, to control who gets pregnant by whom, but, now, w/birth control, that's not much of a problem any more - or shouldn't be. Now you got vd all over the place, not stopping people, though, is it? What does that tell you?"

Me: "Sex is very powerful."

Harry and Bill both laughed maniacally.

Bill: "This fucking guy - he could tell you that the world was about to end w/o changing his expression. He'll be real good for us, real good."

Me: "If it's the way that people really are, then why did you call the men at the hotel 'degenerates'?

Harry: "Not all of em. The cocksuckers w/the brief cases, the ones who get down on their knees on the dirty floor in the mens' room, in their thousand dollar suits, to blow some bus boy that they wouldn't spit on where others - their friends - could see. They sit in restaurants, pretending not even to see these bus boys. That's why they want them so much. It's sick shit that you need to understand. The rich cunts, too - they pay big to get nailed by some immigrant who was mopping the floor an hour earlier. They rut like pigs in heat w/some sweaty Mexican, only to lie there like a lump when their husbands are fucking them that night. But, inside, in their sick fucking heads, they're thinking about how their rich and powerful husband is eating out where a floor-mopper shot his load that afternoon. It's like pissing in somebody's orange juice and watching them drink it down, 'Oh, those oranges were sour, man' they say when they've drunk it all down. People want to shit on each other's noses and have it so that nobody can complain. That's an important lesson right there - I should charge you for this stuff - they don't teach this stuff in school ... We got a job for you in the morning 8 o'clock, here, so go get some sleep. Take this key. It's a limo job, but you don't wear a suit. No, take a Town Car, wear jeans and a sweat shirt. Dark glasses. Don't smile. Do what Bill tells you to do. After, come talk to me."

I left Harry and Bill and headed home for some sleep.

[demagogic_schizoid]

Omnirook, did you write that yourself?

[omnirook]

omni, have you read 'less than zero' ?

Scott
No, but I've driven an actor w/a certain connection to that book. Likes young boys, 12 to 15, smoothe, available - but wants the boys to top, which is an unusual kink w/young boys.

[sbw]

No, but I've driven an actor w/a certain connection to that book. Likes young boys, 12 to 15, smoothe, available - but wants the boys to top, which is an unusual kink w/young boys.

good answer.

Scott

[zhang_bob]

Hustler, what the hell does United Arab Emirates have to do with UK - Argentina relations?


The seven Trucial Sheikdom States of the Persian Gulf coast granted the United Kingdom control of their defense and foreign affairs in nineteenth century treaties. Before the British intervention, the area was notorious for its pirates and was called the Pirate Coast. The U.K sarted the withdrawal in the late 60s, when the United Arab Emirates did not want to be a British protectorate anymore.

[omnirook]

Omnirook, did you write that yourself?
Yeah. Well, I learned how to tell a story from Bill. He's the best story teller I've ever met. He gave me lessons in how to tell things gradually, building up, going back, building up again. He says that people can only pay sharp atttention to details for short snatches. You have to rest them w/a bit of the blase, then you can drive home another point. The most important thing is to make sure that the whole thing sounds familiar. Otherwise, there's no point in telling a story. People need references. They need to feel that they're standing on familiar ground.

Bill: "A good con-artist always tells the truth. It's how he tells it that makes the difference. If you tell somebody something, make sure that the heart of it is true, only shuffle the details to make it impossible to prove anything, one way or another. It's the little things that get people caught every time."

[zhang_bob]

Yeah. Well, I learned how to tell a story from Bill. He's the best story teller I've ever met. He gave me lessons in how to tell things gradually, building up, going back, building up again. He says that people can only pay sharp atttention to details for short snatches. You have to rest them w/a bit of the blase, then you can drive home another point. The most important thing is to make sure that the whole thing sounds familiar. Otherwise, there's no point in telling a story. People need references. They need to feel that they're standing on familiar ground.


Omnirook what have you been taking? Whatever it is I want some.

[omnirook]

Omnirook what have you been taking? Whatever it is I want some.
If you don't like my story, don't read it. If you think it's shit, tell your own story.

[Nemesis]

I joined an INTP forum for one reason. Can you guess what that might be? Now, we both live in free countries, so I'm not saying you should be banned. Maybe just shot. ;)
It's okay. The burn will go away in about a day's time. Care for some ointment?

[Madrigal]

In no way am I suggesting that the corruption that pervades Argentinian culture is an inherent quality of the people, nor that this has no relation to the history of the Argentinian people.

Okay, good, glad that's out of the way.


Like Tim mentioned, the Argentines are an intelligent, educated people who bear remarkable similaritites to those of the developed Western nations. Nevertheless Argentina remains quagmired in third world conditions and no simple change of economic or political policy will change that. The problem from my perspective stems from the mindset that exists among the Argentine people today regardless of whether or not it is justified by historical events.

Nope, you are completely wrong about this Esteban. Argentina's condition as a Third World country is not merely due to a static "mindset" shaped by historical conditions, which you describe as no other than:


the victim, of avoiding responsibility, one that says no else respects the rules of the game so they should not either, everyone else cheats so I have to cheat and cheat better than everyone else just to keep up.

Still you are being unfair, unilateral and unrealistic. Argentina is a Third World country, not because of its mindset but because of its agro-export based economy and an insufficient degree of industrialization necessary for a country to be considered "First World". It's very simple. Argentina could never become First World without completely changing the essence of its economic structure and its role in the international division of labour. Despite an obvious degree of industrialization, we basically buy manufactured products and sell raw materials. I don't think I have to give you an economy lesson to explain what that means. Do you know why the country won't be industrialized to a First World level by any bourgeois governement? Because investing in such a collossal task would require the national bourgeoise to deviate its funds from what is currently absorbing them.

That would mean nationalizing companies, services and industries that are currently prey to international investors that only suck the profits out of the country, for example. It's ridiculous how little of our wealth stays within our country, and this has been aggravated by Menem's privatizations during the 90s, which only led to the degeneration of working conditions, loss of basic labour rights, flexibilization, and a severe unemployment crisis affecting over 20 percent of the working population. People think that Kirchner has a really lefty rhetoric, but his solution to the economic crisis was to devalue the peso, which implied an indirect attack on workers' salaries and an increase in the cost of living. It also only strengthened the agro-export based economic model. When there is a devaluation, someone (Peron?) said that the cost of living rises by elevator while salaries rise by the stairs. The result is that the working class has become poorer.

So you see, we have a Third World bourgeoise that never achieved its historical purpose (national independence from imperialism, industrialization of the country, genuine agrarian reform), and it never will, because it would have to confront the superpowers that it depends on, as a bureaucracy and a third-rate oppressor. It will contentedly continue to live off the crumbs of imperialism rather than conquer its own independence.

So who can industrialize the country? Frankly, I believe this can only be done by a revolutionary working class of Argentina, by means of the forced expropriation of its means of production and the rational and scientific distribuition of wealth, while at the same time allied with the revolutionary working class of industrialized countries; just as the bourgoisie is one and the same and will always defend its interests against the working class in any corner of the world (such as when USA finances tin-pot dictators to help them oppress their own people), the working class is also one and the same in its interests against its class enemy. It is only the working class that can achieve this, as they are the ones that consciously or unconsciously have the power to halt the entire country's production (as demonstrated in general strikes), and to redistribute that production in accordance with the genuine needs of society and not in accordance with capitalist thirst for ever-increasing profits, to the detriment of society's needs.

The affirmation that only an international socialist revolution can complete the pending tasks of a Third World bourgeoisie (industrialization, agrarian reform, political independence), while at the same time progressing towards a socialist economy, is eloquently explained in the theory of Permanent Revolution elaborated by Trotsky. You might be interested in reading it, you'll surely find it online at www.marxists.org.

You'll especially be interested in reading it because I don't have the time to become an online propagandist for you. :)

(Eh, that goes for our two geniuses, zhang_bob and Ferrus, as well.)

By the way, if you think I believe in fairy tales, a fairy tale that states that Argentina's bourgoisie will one day strive to conquer its independence and become a First World player, is in my opinion, the most ridiculously naive of all.

[demagogic_schizoid]

Madrigal, are you really saying that Argentina's current problems have nothing to do with the bahaviour of the governments and of Argentine society? Do you not think the legacy of PEron, for example, has had nay role in holding Argentina back?

Also, explain to me how primarily under-developed, non-industrial countries like Ireland, Spain, Portugal and Chile have managed to develop to a stage where poverty is no longer at third world levels, where even the poorest do not starve, and where the majority of the population has joined the middle class, with many of the rest having middle class aspirations? Do you really think some sort of 5-year plan would help Argentina develop to such a level? where would the money come from? And how would you acheive this great communal industrialisation and mass-development whilst your very own friends in the piquetero movement, and to a lesser extent the unions, hold back every attempt by the government to create wealth? Do you really think you could democratically suppress them enough to allow such a radical industrialisation? Do you even believe in representative democracy and human rights?

[Ferrus]

I know of that site, thanks to the champaigne socialists at my university. It's funny how Marxists attack the Catholic church so much (but apologise for Muslim fundamentalism, of course) because both suffer from the same fault: as their ideology receedes further from reality they go hide themselves in Ivory Towers where scholastic obfuscation is applied in ever more surreal ways, with each of Marx's or Aquinas' (or Freud, Foucault or any other famous philosopher) epigones competing to apply his theory to every event. It become something of a bad party trick after a while to create some silly historical reasoning narrative for various events, most of which don't stand up to even the most cursory examination - take Marxist historiography towards Nazi Germany. There is no way to logically argue with these Marxist pseudo-intellectuals because as far as they are concerned, they are right, and their ideology, despite their protestations of being "scientific" - as if some choleric, bearded waster from the 19th century had the "laws of history" at his finger tips - is nothing but a religious, moral mantra whereby all the complexities of the world are reduced to "classes" and historical conflicts.

And is Argentina's goal to become a first world country really so ridiculous? I mean look at South Korea which, despite the 1997 crisis, is now economically very powerful, yet before the Korean war was considered one of the poorest countries in the world.

[omnirook]

... continued ...

When I got in front of Harry's place the next morning, I was almost an hour and a half early, but Fats was already there, dressed up like a Secret Service agent, a fat one, dark suit, dark glasses, eating a roll and drinking coffee. Fats looked me over as I crossed the street to meet him.

Fats: "You look good - like Harry said, that's good. Have a roll and some coffee."

Fats had a bag of rolls and a thermos of coffee sitting on the hood of a Town Car. I helped myself. "Good coffee."

Fats: "The best. Make it myself."

Bill came down from Harry's.

Bill: "Good to see you're both here early. Good." He helped himself to the coffee and the rolls.

Fats: "So, what are we doing here at this early time? - fucking, Bill, man, just calls and says 'Be there,' fucking guy ..."

Bill: "You come because you always do good w/me, so shut your sewer."

Fats laughed.

Bill: "Fats is here cause this is his kind of stuff. Fats ain't happy just making money, no, he wants to see someone eat a turd and have to say how good it tasted."

I laughed.

Bill: "You laugh - this guy ain't happy unless someone pays through the nose to get fucked. The money don't mean shit to Fats - it's the paying to get fucked that gets him off."

Fats: "So, what? Everybody's got his kink - that's mine."

Bill: "That and banging your wife's best friend, whose husband is your best friend. Yeah, he likes that shit, Fats, man."

Me: "Well, what are we doing here?"

Bill: "We got to go downtown to pick up this old woman - old and ugly and wrinkled up like no prune you ever seen. Married to a politician who's well-loved by those who sell cement in huge quantities. Anyway, this old bitch - and she is a bitch - she likes the dark meat - young, black kids that she blows in the back of the car while Fats takes a walk. Only thing is, Harry wants pictures this time. That's where you come in, looking like any blue collar on his way somewhere. Fats'll park the car near where you're hiding - you'll be able to get good pictures w/the camera I'll give you. That's it - for now."

Me: "So, how's Fats going to get his pleasure from that?"

Bill: "Oh, Fats is patient, man - he LOVES to set it up for a slow burn, makes the taste better when it finally happens - you have to use food images when you're talking about Fats!"

Fats laughed. "That's right. I love my food. Can't hide that, and I don't try to hide it. When have we got to be downtown?"

Bill: "We should leave now, give us time to drop Mark off on the way."

[demagogic_schizoid]

It's okay. The burn will go away in about a day's time. Care for some ointment?

Witty, incisive, and painfully accurate. The agony of being hit simultaneously by your silver tongue and uniquely perceptive mind has me lying on the floor bleeding.

[Madrigal]

Madrigal, are you really saying that Argentina's current problems have nothing to do with the bahaviour of the governments and of Argentine society? Do you not think the legacy of PEron, for example, has had nay role in holding Argentina back?

I think I made it clear that we have a cowardly bourgeois class. Just because Peron took advantage of a particular historical moment to provide new labour rights for workers (building himself into a legend for all those European immigrants who came here fleeing the wars in Europe), does not mean he attempted to complete the historical tasks of the Argentine Bourgeosie. Surely our leaders are also to blame, haven't you read my opinions ever since I started contributing to this thread?


Also, explain to me how primarily under-developed, non-industrial countries like Ireland, Spain, Portugal and Chile have managed to develop to a stage where poverty is no longer at third world levels,

Sorry, but your assumption that Chile is not Third World simply makes me laugh. :lol: Spain and portual are industrialized, have had colonies, and are minor imperialist players, and Ireland is a whole other kettle of fish. Maybe you can get someone else to argue about Ireland/England with you.


Do you really think some sort of 5-year plan would help Argentina develop to such a level?

Not just five years.


where would the money come from?

Expropriation and international worker alliances. I said that already. Again, you are not reading. You simply skimmed what I wrote and paid absolutely no attention whatsoever.


And how would you acheive this great communal industrialisation and mass-development whilst your very own friends in the piquetero movement, and to a lesser extent the unions, hold back every attempt by the government to create wealth?

Union bureaucracy is also a cancer that must be extirpated, along with Peronism. To say it is the working class itself and the regular unemployed piquetero (not their bureaucratic leaders) that are holding back progress, is pure assholery. So I hope you aren't saying that.


Do you really think you could democratically suppress them enough to allow such a radical industrialisation?

Not suppress, liberate; a task only they can do for themselves.


Do you even believe in representative democracy and human rights?

Direct democracy and human rights.

[Madrigal]

... marxists think they're right, marxists are just like the church, marxists theory sucks, blah blah blah blah....

Sorry, but not only am I unaffected by something I have heard billions of times before, from people more incisive than yourself, but it's been quite a few posts since I've stopped considering anything you have to say. :)

[Ferrus]

I've stopped considering anything you have to say. :)
Which says far more for you than it does me.

[Madrigal]

Which says far more for you than it does me.
Of course it does.

[zhang_bob]

Wow, the people of Britain and Argentina agree on something.


If you don't like my story, don't read it. If you think it's shit, tell your own story.

Purgatory is for story time, not The World.

[demagogic_schizoid]

I think I made it clear that we have a cowardly bourgeois class. Just because Peron took advantage of a particular historical moment to provide new labour rights for workers (building himself into a legend for all those European immigrants who came here fleeing the wars in Europe), does not mean he attempted to complete the historical tasks of the Argentine Bourgeosie. Surely our leaders are also to blame, haven't you read my opinions ever since I started contributing to this thread?

Madrigal, I was not calling you a Peronist. I know you despise Peronism. My point was that the reasons you give for Argentina being mired in third world decadence (to Argentinise my speech a little, if I may), excuse Argentine society itself of any blame, at least, any blame above and beyond that which you give to all non-marxist societies. My point is that the legacy of Peronism, which only existed because of widespread support amongst the Argentine working class for authoritarian demagoguery, is far worse, and more harmful to the country, than other non-Marxist forms of government in other countries. Do you accept this? That Argentina would be far better off today if it had followed the path of Canada, for example, than the path which the Mussolini-admiring, Nazi-sympathising Peron took it down (may I just clarify, however, for our non-Argentine readers, that anti-semitism is actually less of a problem in Argentina than in Europe or the USA. Even Peron didn't go as far as to make an attack on the Jews, in fact many of his followers in the Montoneros were Jewish). Because, as I'm sure you know, Argentina and Canada were, in the 1940's, at pretty much the same level of development. Are you really so closed minded to claim that simply because Canada is not a communist society, it is no more developed than Argentina? would you really not prefer to see Argentines enjoy the standard of living that Canadians do, even if it's not an ideal society? Don't you think a western nation which is able to feed all it's people an garauntee them at least a modicum of dignity is far closer, in fact, to being a "utopia", than Argentina, and certainly more-so than any of the actual socialist states in the world today?

The point I am trying to make is that Argentina has lived, and almost died, by it's own choices. This cannot be explained simply from a Marxist viewpoint of internal exploitation and class struggle, or else every country in the world would be in the same state as Argentina. Neither can it be explained by a simple view of Argentina as a victim of imperialism, as my various comparisons to many country's across the world who were in the same, or in a worse state, than Argentina have shown.

As for Spain and Portugal having had colonies, this is absolutley irrelevant. In the 1970's they were very similair, in terms of society, culture and economics, to how Argentina was. How did they manage to develop, while Argentina hasn't? I think you will find it has absolutely nothing to do with their former colonies.





Union bureaucracy is also a cancer that must be extirpated, along with Peronism. To say it is the working class itself and the regular unemployed piquetero (not their bureaucratic leaders) that are holding back progress, is pure assholery. So I hope you aren't saying that.

Every single person has a responsibility to comply with the law and respect others. If they don't do this, they contribute to the general malaise from which Argentina suffers. Their social status is irrelevant.

[omnirook]

Wow, the people of Britain and Argentina agree on something.



Purgatory is for story time, not The World.
So, move it there ... How many of you want me to move? - or to stop all together? It's up to you. I've got to go do some things. Take a vote.

[demagogic_schizoid]

Nobody wants you to stop, but maybe you could make your own thread? Personally I couldn't care less as your story in no way bothers me, but, speaking logically, Zhang Bob has a point.

[zhang_bob]

As for Spain and Portugal having had colonies, this is absolutley irrelevant. In the 1970's they were very similair, in terms of society, culture and economics, to how Argentina was. How did they manage to develop, while Argentina hasn't? I think you will find it has absolutely nothing to do with their former colonies.

Correct me if I am wrong, but it is because they are in one of the biggest trade bloc in the world.


Nobody wants you to stop, but maybe you could make your own thread? Personally I couldn't care less as your story in no way bothers me, but, speaking logically, Zhang Bob has a point.I agree. Omnirook ask the mods to move your story to Purgatory and I will tell you a story.


So, move it there .I would if I could.

[demagogic_schizoid]

Correct me if I am wrong, but it is because they are in one of the biggest trade bloc in the world.

Exactly. They chose to be. What's stopping Latin America forming a trade bloc? The answer is the people, and the leaders they choose. Argentina has the USA offering the FTAA FFS, but any attempts to really create something sustainable like the EU have been sabotaged by protectionists (in the US as well as Argentina). Chile, on the other hand, has opened itself up to trade more than any other Latin American country, and consequently has the highest standard of living. What's more, they did this unilaterally, without asking for instant reciprocation. At the time everyone laughed at their naivety for believing they would ever get a fair deal without government intervention, but they took a long term view, swallowed their pride, and consequently are now better off than their neighbours both economically and socially, (just look at the recent Chilean elections as a pose to those of their neighbours - they were boring, centrist, consensus-based and all in all very European). There is nothing stopping Argentina doing the same, and no reason why it cannot benefit from trade with the EU, America, and China. Except of course the government, which the people elected and continue to widely support.

[Purple-Silver Fox]

I don't know where you get your data, but Argentina is less poor than Chile according to this.

http://hdr.undp.org/statistics/data/

[Nemesis]

thanks, charred heart--the second pic looks a little like miami.

scizoid--shut the fuck up. you're even stupider than nemesis and hustler have described; I think they went easy on you.

Scott
I particularly liked how everyones' responses to the pictures were some form of longing to visit.