Let's talk about mindmates... [Archive]

Park

25 Jun 2006, 04:33 AM

JBHunt

25 Jun 2006, 04:57 AM

Is it that addictive? I haven't experienced this connection with anyone and now I am totally curious. Is it strong enough for you to walk away from your marriage if your mindmate insisted?

Park

25 Jun 2006, 05:02 AM

Is it that addictive? I haven't experienced this connection with anyone and now I am totally curious. Is it strong enough for you to walk away from your marriage if your mindmate insisted?

I love my husbond and a mindmate connection is somewhat different - still very dangerous. You don't have to work for it - it is just there. Like finding the part which completes you - fulfilment?

EmmaPeel

25 Jun 2006, 05:18 AM

Can you please give some examples. Your husband knows everything about you. What would your mindmate know that your husband would not?

Park

25 Jun 2006, 07:25 AM

Can you please give some examples. Your husband knows everything about you. What would your mindmate know that your husband would not?

Why do you conclude that my husbond knows everything about me? He knows me better than most but he has to work for it. Mindmates have extremely easy access to each others minds, I gues that's why they are named *mind*mates.

Jonnyboy

25 Jun 2006, 08:03 AM

I have never had a mindmate. How in the world does an INTP ever get close enough to another human being to have a mind mate? WHAT AM I DOING WRONG!!! *grabs the knife* ... *thinks* ... 'What's this knife made of? German Steel?' ... *Goes and grabs "Guns, Germs, and Steel" and quietly reads.*

EmmaPeel

25 Jun 2006, 08:28 AM

Why do you conclude that my husbond knows everything about me? He knows me better than most but he has to work for it. Mindmates have extremely easy access to each others minds, I gues that's why they are named *mind*mates.

That's just fine, but I still want some concrete examples. How do you know the other person is thinking the same thing you are? How can you be so sure? Maybe they are manipulating you. How do you know?

Park

25 Jun 2006, 08:32 AM

That's just fine, but I still want some concrete examples.

What people want is one thing what others are willing to give you is another.

Edited to add. Try and wrap in that J and don't jump to conclusions.

Miss Anthropic

25 Jun 2006, 08:37 AM

In my opinion a mindmate is someone simpatico...you communicate easily, there is a chemistry even if the relationship is platonic. They are someone who you just feel comfortable to share yourself with because of some sort of innate trust. I have a professor with whom I share this sort of "thing." He's not my prof any more, but my friend and the intimacy we share as friends is pretty intense. We just think alike and it is fun to share conversation with someone who is not only in the same book, but on the same page, sentence, word at the same time.

aklight

25 Jun 2006, 09:23 AM

Hmm. I don't think I've experienced anything like that yet.

Well, there was that one time that I realized that I was actually two people living in one body...but I was really stoned then...anyway, it was a great conclusion to come to. I felt really happy about it. It was like my consciouse self and my subconscious self connecting with other, and I felt unstoppable. Then I never thought about it again until now. That's the down side of getting stoned. The brilliant things you come up with just don't seem to add up as much as you thought they did...

I think it would be pretty cool though, Park. I may have met a few "mind mates" but never realized it and lost contact with them. I tend to do that a lot...

As for feeling naked and vulnerable, my brother and I are kind of like that. We know every thing about each other. I know exactly how he thinks and vice versa. All the more reason for me not to want to enter his brain, lol. As much as we are different, we don't (or can't) hide anything from each other. This neither scares me or makes me happy. He's been living with me for free for two months while trying to find a job, and I can't wait until he's gone!

rivercrow

25 Jun 2006, 09:42 AM

From people I've talked to about this and from my own experiences, I think you have to be somewhat older to end up with a mindmate situation. I suspect it has something to do with realizing how rare it is to have that connection, and the rarity doesn't become apparent until you've been around the block a few times.

I'm glad to have had the experience, but it has made me wary of repeating the connection again.

Ah, dear. More isolation. :mellow:

outmywindow

25 Jun 2006, 10:09 AM

Mayvbe it's because I'm quite drunk that I say this, but bI think I'd give almost anything in theb world for one of these "mindmates."

I have a friend whose boyfriend has just said "I love you" to her, and he's the forst of many boyfriends to say so, and she feels she loves himj, hyet she's just fooled around with anther man at a bar (not sex). Doesn't she realize how much some people would give for that connection? I think for her that "I love you" is a mindmate, and she is blind to its potential and uniqueness.

I'm sorry for all rhe typos.

Pooja

25 Jun 2006, 04:47 PM

:joft:

panego

25 Jun 2006, 06:13 PM

I have had the mind-mate experience twice in my life as well. The first time was my first year of college as the result of a chance on-campus meeting with a former high school friend who had just three minutes earlier bumped into a co-worker. The three of us went to the student lounge for lunch. My friend left for class and her co-worker and I lingered to continue our conversation. It was unlike any conversation I had ever experienced. We spoke for five and a half hours with such ease, such intellectual and emotional intimacy, that neither of us wanted it to end. Two years later we became husband and wife.

We have been married 35 years and there are a lot of positive benefits to being married to your best friend (she is an INFJ). We both enjoy travel and learning and sharing new experiences. I think it would be more accurate to describe us as soul-mates today. There is still a feeling that we complete one another, but not all of our intellectual interests are shared. We have learned not to bore each other with those deep interests which are not; for example, my interests in Keirsey, MBTI, and group dynamics. These topics are not even open to intellectual debate. She feels strongly that any system that tries to summarize common human characteristics is inherently flawed because it fails to pay respect to the uniqueness of the individual.

There was a six year period in my work where I was a road warrior from Monday through Friday. About six months prior to a major layoff, I worked on a couple of projects with a person who was my second mind-mate. We were the only ones at the project sites who seemed to sense the undercurrent of changes leading to the major layoffs. We shared hotels, rental cars, and meals. We were in the same age group, she was an INFJ married to her INTP high school sweetheart. In addition, she felt the same best-friend, soul-mate connection at home. We were both blown away by the mind-mate relationship that developed. At no time was there ever any consideration or possibility of the relationship getting physical, but the intellectual and emotional intimacy was at a level that I had only experienced once before. We have maintained an epistolary friendship for over five years where there may be gaps of six or seven months without contact. But each time it picks up again, it is as if there was no real gap at all.

panego

25 Jun 2006, 06:16 PM

There was one other unique friendship/relationship that occurred with an ENTP boss. We met when the company I was working for acquired the company he was working for. He was a senior officer and I was part of the acquisition team. Seven months after the acquisition I joined his small staff. We both traveled extensively and were in the same city less than 20 percent of the time. Yet by the second month, it was clear that our communication meshed. Others would comment how we tended to finish each other's sentences with such ease. The term mind-mate cannot apply here; but there was an intellectual and emotional connection unlike any other friendship or relationship I had ever experienced. It was the best three years of my career.

The reason I bring it up is that my wife and I can talk openly about the special work relationship I had there. She had a platonic connection in special working relationship years ago. However, she was not at ease with me talking about my mental connection with the woman I had worked with as a peer. Is that social conditioning and our sense of social taboos?

Park

25 Jun 2006, 06:25 PM

We just think alike and it is fun to share conversation with someone who is not only in the same book, but on the same page, sentence, word at the same time.

Yes, that describes it very well - to be in tune most of the time.

I think it would be pretty cool though, Park. I may have met a few "mind mates" but never realized it and lost contact with them. I tend to do that a lot...

From the outside, you would never gues that the two people I meet and myself had anything in common. Perhaps I've meet others but never got close enough to find out. Both are INTPs though and as this board clearly displays - we come in many shapes and can be bewildering different.

From people I've talked to about this and from my own experiences, I think you have to be somewhat older to end up with a mindmate situation. I suspect it has something to do with realizing how rare it is to have that connection, and the rarity doesn't become apparent until you've been around the block a few times.

I'm glad to have had the experience, but it has made me wary of repeating the connection again.

Ah, dear. More isolation.

Yes, to loose something so precious would leave you with the sence of being isolated - lol reminds me of Gollum after having lost his ring "My precious" - hmm thinking about it - that isn't really funny :dont: ,,,,and then again, it is to some extend.

I also think that it hits you harder with age because you grow to appreciate the special things in life more consciously instead of taking stuff for granted.

I have a friend whose boyfriend has just said "I love you" to her, and he's the forst of many boyfriends to say so, and she feels she loves himj, hyet she's just fooled around with anther man at a bar (not sex). Doesn't she realize how much some people would give for that connection? I think for her that "I love you" is a mindmate, and she is blind to its potential and uniqueness.

:cheers: I don't think love and a mindmate connection is the same thing eventhough those two sizes resembles each other a lot. We don't nessecarily fall in love with people we have that kind of mental connection with - though it probably would be easy to build love on that foundation.

charred_heart

25 Jun 2006, 06:28 PM

I experienced something close, but I didn't take it to the next level. Now I wonder if I imagined it all :(

Park

25 Jun 2006, 06:48 PM

The reason I bring it up is that my wife and I can talk openly about the special work relationship I had there. She had a platonic connection in special working relationship years ago. However, she was not at ease with me talking about my mental connection with the woman I had worked with as a peer. Is that social conditioning and our sense of social taboos?

To meet two mindmates and handle the two situations so well is something I wish I could brag about as well. I suppose meeting mindmates only is a gift when you live out your connections that way. I have never been physicall unfaithfull to any one in my life but emotional unfaithfull - hell yes.

I do understand how your wife feels. I sometimes chat with a sweet person on this board who in connection with the mindmate thing recently said "If you can seduce my mind my body will follow". I think that deeper intimacy especially for N types starts in the mind. I personal perceive my mindmate connections more intimate than going out and get laid. Which is why I sometimes feel emotional unfaithfull.

Nighthawk

25 Jun 2006, 07:06 PM

We have been married 35 years and there are a lot of positive benefits to being married to your best friend (she is an INFJ). We both enjoy travel and learning and sharing new experiences. I think it would be more accurate to describe us as soul-mates today.

I like your term soul-mates. I had a similar connection with an INFJ who helped me recover mentally and spiritually after the first gulf war. We connected on an inner level through shared abstract concepts and bonded very closely. We came close to marriage, but she was 12 years older than me and thought I was being a bit impetuous. Perhaps I was. There was a long distance separating us ... she lived in Hawaii and I lived in Texas ... but we still maintained the bond. She died of cancer 7 years go. I still miss her greatly.

charred_heart

25 Jun 2006, 07:13 PM

Nighthawk... I can't imagine what you are going through....

Shimpei

25 Jun 2006, 07:25 PM

You guys talk like it's only N types that need mindmates.

Nighthawk

25 Jun 2006, 07:33 PM

I have had a soulmate connection twice in my life, with an INFJ and INFP. A mindmate connection once with an INTP. I have had close NT friends as well, but most have been men and I don't feel quite comfortable establishing a mindmate connection with them. For me, the soulmate is somewhat different from the mindmate. Bot are deep, abstract connections, but the mindmate is on the same sheet of music I am on. The soulmate understands that sheet and can read it, but has her own "music" that she prefers.

I don't seem to have as much of the lonliness described when the other person is not in contact. I am just thankful that they exist, that I have the connection, and that I will be in contact with them again. I don't feel the emotional infidelity either. I guess that might have to do with my relationships having been primarily with SJs, so I have always needed a mindmate or at least somebody with whom I could share abstract concepts. My wife is an SJ and we do not share abstract concepts well, nor does she really understand what is going on inside my mind (how cliche). My wife wants a helpmate, and we connect in that manner ... in the concrete world of sharing tasks like cooking breakfast and bathing the dog. Not exactly mind candy. I have always received my N connection from others, so I do not consider it infidelity.

As for my close connections ... the INFJ died some years ago, the INFP and I drifted apart, but still talk occasionally, and I am quite close with the INTP.

Nighthawk

25 Jun 2006, 07:43 PM

You guys talk like it's only N types that need mindmates.

I'm sure there can be similar connections regardless of type ... but from my experience, the N's seem to need an abstract connection more than the S's. Keirsey defines what the four types want as follows:

SJ - Helpmate
SP - Playmate
NF - Soulmate
NT - Mindmate

Speaking anecdotally, I know that my relationships with SJs revolve primarily around helping them with day-to-day life. That is the primary bond I have with my ISFJ wife ... sharing daily chores and concrete things. When I was married to an SP, it was a playtime bond ... club hopping and partying. Neither were very fulfilling to me in the abstract sense ... ergo, I have (had) NT friends ... and even an NT mindmate. A mindmate is a beautiful thing for an NT, as they fill a void that exists in the concrete world. I would imagine that a soulmate fills the same void for an NF ... a playmate for the SP ... and a helpmate for the SJ. It is just that there are more playmates and helpmates available on this planet, than soulmates or mindmates.

indie

25 Jun 2006, 07:50 PM

She feels strongly that any system that tries to summarize common human characteristics is inherently flawed because it fails to pay respect to the uniqueness of the individual.

This is an interesting philosophy. I understand her viewpoint and defending individual uniqueness is very INFJ-ish, but I would not call the system(s) "inherently flawed." System classification is very useful; at the very least for determining patterns or trends. But I digress.

I have experienced an inkling of a connection at the "mindmate" level before. Like fusion, it can be pretty damn powerful. In a scary kind of way.

Shimpei

25 Jun 2006, 07:59 PM

SJ - Helpmate
SP - Playmate
NF - Soulmate
NT - Mindmate

I find this classification cliched and a bit forced. As we grow older, we all develop (or at least are forced to develop) our weaker functions. I don't say by the age of 80 everyone will become EISNFTJP but please, let's not think in labels.
As to mating, I would be the happiest to have a playmate, a soulmate, a mindmate, and a helpmate in one person :)

Nighthawk

25 Jun 2006, 08:08 PM

I find this classification cliched and a bit forced. As we grow older, we all develop (or at least are forced to develop) our weaker functions. I don't say by the age of 80 everyone will become EISNFTJP but please, let's not think in labels.
As to mating, I would be the happiest to have a playmate, a soulmate, a mindmate, and a helpmate in one person :)

Certainly ... one size does not fit all. I'm just saying that in my life and relationships, it has been pretty accurate. I know that if I fulfill the helpmate role for my wife, then everything is great in our marriage from her perspective. I'm not saying she is incapable of anything else ... just that helpmate is her preferred role. When my wife was in grad school, I got some mind candy by helping her with her school work, projects, and thesis. It actually strengthened the bond from my perspective. It gave me more of what I needed than sharing the task of cooking breakfast does for her.

I certainly do not mean to underplay any role or preference. They are all equally valuable in my opinion. I wish I could find more happiness in a concrete role, as I do so many concrete things every day. I would probably be more well adjusted if I did. I also do not mean to suggest that a certain type is incapable of fitting into another role. I do believe that there are preferred roles, however.

JBHunt

25 Jun 2006, 08:30 PM

Shimpei

25 Jun 2006, 08:45 PM

But Shimpei, wouldn't you prefer a helpmate first and foremost? That's the role my SJ fiance wanted me to be.

Maybe.
Doesn't this whole theory imply that NTs would fit best with NTs, SJs with SJs etc? Still there are few such pairings in real life.

charred_heart

25 Jun 2006, 08:52 PM

Maybe.
Doesn't this whole theory imply that NTs would fit best with NTs, SJs with SJs etc? Still there are few such pairings in real life.I know that ISFJs are either interested in INTPs or find them totally boring. Maybe that's why some of us are so touchy ;)

Nighthawk

25 Jun 2006, 08:59 PM

Maybe.
Doesn't this whole theory imply that NTs would fit best with NTs, SJs with SJs etc? Still there are few such pairings in real life.

Actually, Keirsey claims that NTs fit best with NFs ... and SJs best with SPs. The postulated ideal fit for an INTP is an ENFJ. The postulated ideal for an ISFJ is an ESTP. That has been debated a lot, and probably will continue to be. I am quite drawn to NFs and have had some excellent relationships with them ... but ended up marrying SJs and SPs.

I'm glad that I found the helpmate/mindmate theories ... because it helps me give my ISFJ wife something that she wants from the relationship and makes her happy. I also understand what I need to be happy and try to find it as well. I wish I'd been better versed in the theory when my kids were growing up, as I believe it would have helped us figure out our SP daughter. My son is an INTP, so there was no problem connecting there.

JBHunt

25 Jun 2006, 09:03 PM

Maybe.
Doesn't this whole theory imply that NTs would fit best with NTs, SJs with SJs etc? Still there are few such pairings in real life.

I like your "maybe" lol.
There are few such pairings because people don't walk around with MBTI labels on their foreheads. They randomly meet, fall in love, and make the best of their situation.

Shimpei

25 Jun 2006, 09:05 PM

Actually, Keirsey claims that NTs fit best with NFs ... and SJs best with SPs. The postulated ideal fit for an INTP is an ENFJ. The postulated ideal for an ISFJ is an ESTP.

I'm drawn to N types. Both my best friend, my darling Dad, and my ex are Ns.

Nighthawk

25 Jun 2006, 09:05 PM

They randomly meet, fall in love, and make the best of their situation.

... and sometimes the worst of their situation ;)

Nighthawk

25 Jun 2006, 09:12 PM

I'm drawn to N types. Both my best friend, my darling Dad, and my ex are Ns.

I have a soft spot for SJs :)

Shimpei

25 Jun 2006, 09:12 PM

I like your "maybe" lol.

I said "maybe" because this helpmate thing puzzles me a lot: the term sounds so mechanical and technical, and simply doesn't seem sufficient for connecting. At least for me.

JBHunt

25 Jun 2006, 09:15 PM

I'm glad that I found the helpmate/mindmate theories ... because it helps me give my ISFJ wife something that she wants from the relationship and makes her happy. I also understand what I need to be happy and try to find it as well. I wish I'd been better versed in the theory when my kids were growing up, as I believe it would have helped us figure out our SP daughter. My son is an INTP, so there was no problem connecting there.

Nighthawk, sounds like you made the effort to understand her. Does your wife make the effort to understand you?

Shimpei

25 Jun 2006, 09:15 PM

I have a soft spot for SJs :)

:cheers:

Nighthawk

25 Jun 2006, 09:30 PM

Nighthawk, sounds like you made the effort to understand her. Does your wife make the effort to understand you?

I think she makes an honest effort. I discuss MBTI with her quite a bit, but she is more of the nurture vs. nature type ... I am the opposite. I attach more significance to MBTI than she does. I don't want to come off sounding like I am overly complex or hard to understand ... but the bottom line is that I am a minority type and she is a majority type. The world tends to operate in a way that fits her personality. It definitely does not operate in a way that fits mine ... and I tend to have problems with jobs, careers, and sometimes just existing. She does not have these problems and often cannot understand why I do. If I would just "fit in" better, then these problems would not be there. It takes a lot of communication, in various different ways, to come to an understanding.

Lately we have had some confrontations about me wanting to quit my job and do something different. To her, I have a great job, so why would I even think about quitting? To me, the job is a daily prison sentence. We've talked it out over and over again ... from several different angles. To her, work is just work ... to me it has to be interesting as well. I think she understands where I am coming from and she has lent her support to me for this change. Of course, I promised her that I would find something else before I quit my present job.

Shimpei

25 Jun 2006, 09:36 PM

To her, work is just work ...

I can relate to that. I don't have any problems with mundane, repetitious or monotonous work at all and I don't look for any self-fulfilment or satisfaction with my job (except for the money-making side of that, of course :)).

Nighthawk

25 Jun 2006, 09:40 PM

I can relate to that. I don't have any problems with mundane, repetitious or monotonous work at all and I don't look for any self-fulfilment or satisfaction with my job (except for the money-making side of that, of course :)).

Yes ... my wife and I have had that talk many times. I wish I were more like her ... it would make my work life a lot easier. I tend to burn out at about the 2 year mark where ever I happen to work. Always looking for something new. It can be quite stressful.

Shimpei

25 Jun 2006, 09:49 PM

Yes ... my wife and I have had that talk many times. I wish I were more like her ... it would make my work life a lot easier. I tend to burn out at about the 2 year mark where ever I happen to work. Always looking for something new. It can be quite stressful.

:hug:

Good luck with your job search.

Nighthawk

25 Jun 2006, 09:53 PM

:hug:

Good luck with your job search.

Thanks ... I'll need it ;)

attila_the_hunny

25 Jun 2006, 10:22 PM

I suppose I have a mindmate [who's an NT], but I don't put much effort in evaluating it. I can get caught up in my own ideas, see the flaws, and then want to distance myself in any way possible. Which, since we live together, could make things complicated when they shouldn't be. I guess I am trying to break myself of the habit of fucking things up for no apparent reason.

Miss Anthropic

25 Jun 2006, 10:43 PM

As to mating, I would be the happiest to have a playmate, a soulmate, a mindmate, and a helpmate in one person :)
Dream on.....

indie

25 Jun 2006, 10:53 PM

Dream on.....

It's not cynical bunny season just yet, is it?

Spartan26

25 Jun 2006, 11:34 PM

As to mating, I would be the happiest to have a playmate, a soulmate, a mindmate, and a helpmate in one person :)Yeah, I'm with you on that, sister. Sometimes, you'll hear people describe their perfect mate and the description will seem so unrealistic, I sometimes wonder how much of the above four should I resonably expect to find??? I can think back to a couple of women I dated whose playmate scores were through the roof. Also, strong mindmate matches. But the relationship didn't last long. At the time I was really devistated by it. I really blamed myself at times, while other times being totally confused. Now I can look back and see they were almost completely non-existent on the helpmate end of the scale. Even more so than beauty, being a great playmate will temporarily blind me to other areas being at a great lack.

I think a lot of actors/actresses are this way. They really live of the chemical high of falling in love. Or get really caught up in new relationships. I remember hearing a shrink describe it in more technical terms but the times you see like Billy Bob and Angolina exclaim their connection and carry around a vile of each other's blood, it's probably very real to them at the time. They probably just don't realize how selfish the other truly is and then 18 months later they're calling it quits.

I could probably write exhaustively on this, it's really good to think about. I have felt the mindmate connection. It may be what I desire most. Soulmate, in terms of spiritual connection can be rather, well I don't know if I'd say easy, but I believe there's a bigger help beyond me (us) that intercedes. But there was one lady I went out with first in my early-mid 20's and then around thirty whom I was so connected to. Heh, she was an actress but had other creative outlets. I think that's when we were at our best, in deconstruction of various works.

We were also very good and describing the other. It was almost to the point of her saying, "No Spartan, this is who you are, this is what you need and this is what it is." And for me I was astonished by her perception and was open to hearing these things. Part of the problem was me not knowing when I was doing it to her. Either that or not imagining the things I'd say were things she had already been thinking about or not wanting to face. So I have to wonder, now as I think back, if my assessments weren't taken much more critically than I intended or certainly believed them to be.

I was definitely too young, too inexperienced to have been aware and thus been better suited to comminicate through such things. (She was also probably 12-14 years older). In a sense, I'm grateful to know what I need/want/to look for before being say 62, although I know it would've been easier to find at 26.

Finding a mindmate can be so tough regardless of sex. I can think of a couple of guys I know that I tend to be fairly quiet around. Not that I'm too insecure to speak but I usually want to hear what they are going to say for knowledge and perspective. That could be a part of the intp utilitarian nature. If we're gonna have conversation, might as well be able to learn from it.
(And here I thought I was going to be able to keep this short.)

attila_the_hunny

25 Jun 2006, 11:50 PM

I think if you find a mindmate [of your sexual interest], it could easily turn into a playmate situation, and then warp into a helpmate-ation.

...

I don't mind doing those three, but stay the hell away from my soul. :stop:

kuranes

26 Jun 2006, 12:00 AM

I've never had an extreme mindmate that I can remember offhand. You'd think I WOULD remember, if such a thing happened. There have been friends who were often on the same page, however. Sometimes we finished sentences for one another. This is exaggerated if you both take MDMA.

Park

26 Jun 2006, 06:32 AM

panego

26 Jun 2006, 01:53 PM

it is fun to share conversation with someone who is not only in the same book, but on the same page, sentence, word at the same time.

I am just thankful that they exist, that I have the connection, and that I will be in contact with them again. I don't feel the emotional infidelity either. I guess that might have to do with my relationships having been primarily with SJs, so I have always needed a mindmate or at least somebody with whom I could share abstract concepts.

I did not feel any emotional infidelity either. However, there was an awkwardness in knowing that I could connect with someone else on topics that were important to me and yet not be able to share them with my wife on the same level. It is not like a personal hobby. For example, I have had an interest in the open source world for years. Now that is a topic area where I do not give a damn that my wife shares no interest. It is my personal hobby area.

On the other hand, I shared Keirsey's book with my other mind-mate friend and we had great fun discussing relationships we observed among family and friends. Much like the way these forum topics share personal details, we disclosed personal details about interactions with our mates that led to both of us learning more about ourselves and our relationships. I do not feel that those conversations betrayed any confidence with my spouse. However, I am not sure that she would feel the same way.

How many of you have significant others who would understand your relationship with a mind-mate? How many of you would understand if the roles were reversed? I would like to think that I would.....I would like to think that I have when I thought it occurred in the past.

Nighthawk

26 Jun 2006, 02:54 PM

rivercrow

26 Jun 2006, 03:09 PM

My SO tries to understand.

Sdalek and I actually have a very close relationship that merges helpmate and playmate. Our inner children come out to play together frequently--maybe too often. :) I try to encourage open communication, but my own retreating habits interfere sometimes (I keep working on that, but my weak Fi is a problem).

There is an element of mindmate there--but it is not electrifying the way a true mindmate connection is. It goes beyond being able to discuss interests.

It just underscores to me how unique we all are.

I'm curious what Sdalek's views on our relationship are now.

Actually, he started understanding a bit more after I showed him the TeamTechnology flash on the different processes. I'll come back and post that link here.

LostInThoughts

26 Jun 2006, 03:28 PM

Park,

I may be oversimplifying your meaning of mindmate, but I've found that these individuals are those with whom I feel a deep intellectual and mutual respect given to very few others.* In such instances, we have thus both granted the other permission into our NT "secret gardens," and that the vast majority of others have not demonstrated sufficient intellectual and relational familiarity and resonance to enter these grounds.

To me it's one of the greatest compliments to another and that I may receive. I've resigned myself to the reality that I probably won't be able to settle down with a SO who is also a mindmate, and this really saddens me. I feel very grateful for having a few of these intellectual partnerships in my life though, and hope they will help to make up for whatever my primary romantic relationship or connection cannot sustain.

*Although this will no doubt come off as snooty, it is meant to be read with a more respectful and admirable quality. I attribute my own lack of facility with language to more accurately represent the experience.

Ivy

26 Jun 2006, 03:34 PM

Shimpei

26 Jun 2006, 03:40 PM

Is it selfish of me to want a mindmate, soulmate, and helpmate all rolled into one? :)

we're both greedy ISFJs :)

Park

26 Jun 2006, 05:32 PM

How many of you have significant others who would understand your relationship with a mind-mate? How many of you would understand if the roles were reversed? I would like to think that I would.....I would like to think that I have when I thought it occurred in the past.

My husbond would understand very well, which is why I would never tell him. He is an INTJ but not extreme on any way and he don't have the same problems fitting into society as I do. He doesn't have a distinct N which makes him a lot more earthbound than me and unless an idea or thought have a usefull purpose, it doesn't interest him. However, sharing ideas and thoughts does play a large role in our relationship.

I love him I truely do so this is going to sound awfull. However, the answer to your question is that we connect to little to be real mindmates and too much for me to tell him about the connection I share with others :( .

C.J.Woolf

26 Jun 2006, 05:37 PM

That doesn't sound awful at all; it sounds realistic and kind.

bergenski

26 Jun 2006, 05:40 PM

It seems to me platonic mindmates seems kind of difficult. Regarding MDMA, that would be mindmates for a time, only to both wake up, blinking, wondering how you could feel such a connection, only to realize that it was really never there.

Park

26 Jun 2006, 05:50 PM

We were also very good and describing the other. It was almost to the point of her saying, "No Spartan, this is who you are, this is what you need and this is what it is." And for me I was astonished by her perception and was open to hearing these things. Part of the problem was me not knowing when I was doing it to her. Either that or not imagining the things I'd say were things she had already been thinking about or not wanting to face. So I have to wonder, now as I think back, if my assessments weren't taken much more critically than I intended or certainly believed them to be.

I find that with a mindmate, complicated thoughts and ideas are often processed so quickly that it feels like two minds working as one.

rivercrow

26 Jun 2006, 05:52 PM

Oh, Park. :hug:

I do hope you the best.

I was just reading today in Shadow Dance about shadow traits. We tend to disown our shadows, but we see them in others. The negative shadows we despise in others; the positive shadows we admire in others.

I wonder if the mindmate thing is a longing for unity with our own positive shadows?

That would support Nighthawk's list of NTs wanting mindmates, SJs wanting helpmates, etc. We want our positive shadows. NTs admire cognitive prowess. When we encounter cognitive prowess, we cleave to it?

Just a thought (incoherent as it may be).

attila_the_hunny

26 Jun 2006, 05:55 PM

that would be mindmates for a time, only to both wake up, blinking, wondering how you could feel such a connection, only to realize that it was really never there.

This describes a few experiences I've had. Minus drugs.

LostInThoughts

26 Jun 2006, 06:05 PM

...I wonder if the mindmate thing is a longing for unity with our own positive shadows?...We want our positive shadows. NTs admire cognitive prowess. When we encounter cognitive prowess, we cleave to it?...

I think so rivercrow, but would add that it may not be union that I seek, so much as communion in the case of positive shadows. Life for me can be a very lonely place when others are not interested in roaming the grounds or planes of thought/contemplation that I so often find myself, so to have a couple of friends who enjoy such meanderings helps me feel less alone in my own life's journey...

panego

26 Jun 2006, 07:06 PM

Is it selfish of me to want a mindmate, soulmate, and helpmate all rolled into one? :) I think I have that, although in proportions of cascading order as above. I try to be the same to him.

Not at all. I think we are all capable of playing each of the four roles. Maybe not all four roles in the same relationship, and certainly not all simultaneously, but I think we need to play different roles in order to maintain healthy relationships. Nighthawk's observation that he bonded in the roles required by his significant others speaks volumes. When I met my wife, I viewed the experience as meeting a mind-mate. Who knows, maybe she viewed the experience as meeting her soul-mate. Keirsey's frameworks and vocabulary were not part of our vocabulary. I do feel that over time the relationship has shifted to be more soul-mate than mind-mate.

Given the fact that INTPs have to live in an SJ/SP world, we have been conditioned to employ our defenses in human interactions. I think others have captured the experience of engaging a mind-mate well by describing it as allowing someone else into your private mind garden with all of the defenses removed.

faith

26 Jun 2006, 07:55 PM

Park

26 Jun 2006, 08:04 PM

To me it's one of the greatest compliments to another and that I may receive. I've resigned myself to the reality that I probably won't be able to settle down with a SO who is also a mindmate, and this really saddens me. I feel very grateful for having a few of these intellectual partnerships in my life though, and hope they will help to make up for whatever my primary romantic relationship or connection cannot sustain.

I know what you meen and I wonder how many people actually actually end up sharing their life with a mindmate - furthermore, if it really works out?

That doesn't sound awful at all; it sounds realistic and kind.
Thanks for your understanding.

Oh, Park.

I do hope you the best.

You too rivercrow.

I was just reading today in Shadow Dance about shadow traits. We tend to disown our shadows, but we see them in others. The negative shadows we despise in others; the positive shadows we admire in others.

I wonder if the mindmate thing is a longing for unity with our own positive shadows?

That would support Nighthawk's list of NTs wanting mindmates, SJs wanting helpmates, etc. We want our positive shadows. NTs admire cognitive prowess. When we encounter cognitive prowess, we cleave to it?

Just a thought (incoherent as it may be).

That sounds very possible. I find that mindmates often enables us to find hidden potential in ourself or find new ways of living our lives. Perhaps because mindmates are often casted in similar moulds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bergenski
that would be mindmates for a time, only to both wake up, blinking, wondering how you could feel such a connection, only to realize that it was really never there.

This describes a few experiences I've had. Minus drugs.

ROLF, I still have contact with both my mindmates. The one I meet 13 years ago and the one I meet recently. As I said, I don't know how to cut bonds like that. Too addictive and too sweet to live without I gues - allthough - quite painfull to live with sometimes.

attila_the_hunny

26 Jun 2006, 08:12 PM

ROLF, I still have contact with both my mindmates. The one I meet 13 years ago and the one I meet recently. As I said, I don't know how to cut bonds like that. Too addictive and too sweet to live without I gues - allthough - quite painfull to live with sometimes.

It was a passing moment--literally. One day we connected, and then the next I was looking at this person and thinking "what the hell did I ever see in you?"

We met, 'connected' and parted, all within a week. I call it being temporarily blinded.

rivercrow

26 Jun 2006, 08:15 PM

:offtopic:

ROLF, I still have contact with both my mindmates. The one I meet 13 years ago and the one I meet recently. As I said, I don't know how to cut bonds like that. Too addictive and too sweet to live without I gues - allthough - quite painfull to live with sometimes.
:D

I like your way better, I think, sort of, but the first thing that popped into my head is "Park doesn't have enough cut-and-run ruthlessness." :lol:

Please realize I'm teasing you. With admiration. :)

If it hurts too bad my flight-instinct kicks in and I RUN FOR THE HILLS! And probably miss out on stuff--but that's the Enneagram5w4 tendencies in me talking, I think.

/derailment concluded

Park

26 Jun 2006, 08:31 PM

It was a passing moment--literally. One day we connected, and then the next I was looking at this person and thinking "what the hell did I ever see in you?"

We met, 'connected' and parted, all within a week. I call it being temporarily blinded.

Yeah, I've tried that as well. Some men can be handsome in dim light and interesting to listen to if the music is loud enough - yes I know, that goes for women as well.

Park

26 Jun 2006, 08:36 PM

:offtopic:

:D

I like your way better, I think, sort of, but the first thing that popped into my head is "Park doesn't have enough cut-and-run ruthlessness." :lol:

Please realize I'm teasing you. With admiration. :)

If it hurts too bad my flight-instinct kicks in and I RUN FOR THE HILLS! And probably miss out on stuff--but that's the Enneagram5w4 tendencies in me talking, I think.

/derailment concluded

Oh, don't give me credit for that. I have tried to run a bazillion times as well and to make it sound like a plan from my side would be to make a virtue out of necessity. I gues I just have to live it out.

Nighthawk

26 Jun 2006, 09:18 PM

:rant:

I have an INTP soulmate, only he doesn't seem to value it. Doesn't get how rare and special it is. Is he too stupid to see it, or does he really have so many mind/soulmates that one more or less is no big deal? He keeps dating people with whom he has no real connection...and yet we do connect... I don't get it.

:banghead:

He could just be young and hasn't made the connection yet. I didn't make my first connection like that until I was 29. Spent a lot of time chasing illusions prior to that.

faith

26 Jun 2006, 10:26 PM

He could just be young and hasn't made the connection yet. I didn't make my first connection like that until I was 29. Spent a lot of time chasing illusions prior to that.

aww... Thanks. I fully deserved to be knocked upside the head for a post like that. More of a spew of emotion than a worthy post. Patience is a virtue, but sometimes it wears thin on me. <_<

Nighthawk

26 Jun 2006, 11:07 PM

aww... Thanks. I fully deserved to be knocked upside the head for a post like that. More of a spew of emotion than a worthy post. Patience is a virtue, but sometimes it wears thin on me. <_<

It's tough when you feel a connection with somebody and wonder if they feel it back. Sometimes they haven't reached a point in their life where they understand that type of connection. Makes me wonder what I have missed. Soulmate(NF) - Mindmate (NT) connections are very nice, but there are significant differences that could be missed.

kendoiwan

26 Jun 2006, 11:30 PM

When you meet people who are capable of entering that (for me) most intimate part of your mind - weird things happen. First of all, you get company up there - a very strange experience. I guess that was what Adam felt when he meet Eve - wow, I'm not alone in this garden anymore how cool is that? It really is so incredibly sweet to be able to go for a walk in that intimate garden with another person. However, the back side is that you easily start to feel lonely in your garden when that person isn't around. The mind candy is more addictive than any drug (hmmm, strong statement for a person who never tried drugs) and this kind of bonding is seemingly almost impossible to cut. I'm not even sure if this kind of connection is particulary healthy. Furthermore, my experience is that those kind of bonds lasts forever, even though you don't talk for years you can pick up that phone and when you hear the voice in the other end it is like you only spoke to that person 1 sec ago.

I would very much like to hear your experiences with this? To be honest, I don't find these mindmate connections particulary easy to live with.

I'm currently living out the negative side of this coin... I don't like the hold she has on me, but I can't out and out cut it off as I could with any other type... Damned if I do, damned if I don't...

justmyimagination

26 Jun 2006, 11:34 PM

It's tough when you feel a connection with somebody and wonder if they feel it back. Sometimes they haven't reached a point in their life where they understand that type of connection. Makes me wonder what I have missed. Soulmate(NF) - Mindmate (NT) connections are very nice, but there are significant differences that could be missed.

I don't understand this (italicized part). I'm only 18, but I can't understand how it would be possible for anyone not to recognize this if they were lucky enough to run into it. What is it that needs to be developed, according to you, before you could potentially connect with someone that way?

Park

26 Jun 2006, 11:39 PM

I'm currently living out the negative side of this coin... I don't like the hold she has on me, but I can't out and out cut it off as I could with any other type... Damned if I do, damned if I don't...

:hug: I does hurt like hell. This kind of thing leaves us butt naked and vunerable - as eyebyte would say "feel the pain".

kendoiwan

26 Jun 2006, 11:43 PM

Add baffled to that...

rivercrow

27 Jun 2006, 03:14 AM

Is a mindmate always a member of the sex to which you are attracted?

Or does it matter?

Spartan26

27 Jun 2006, 04:31 AM

I find that with a mindmate, complicated thoughts and ideas are often processed so quickly that it feels like two minds working as one.
I do find that. Where simple words can describe a litnay of thoughts/emotions/what have you. I've found where a mindmate reveals to you or has revealed to me questions/thoughts/ideas/concepts that pondered. There's a certain connection for me knowing that we've both been down an isolated road.

geniusndisguise

27 Jun 2006, 04:46 AM

Now, all I can say is that this kind of connection throughoutly fucks up your mind. I've lived most of my life inside my own mind - partly because I enjoyed being alone up there [. . .] When you meet people who are capable of entering that (for me) most intimate part of your mind - weird things happen. First of all, you get company up there - a very strange experience. [. . . ] wow, I'm not alone in this garden anymore how cool is that? It really is so encredible sweet to be able to go for a walk in that intimate garden with another person. However, the back side is that you easily start to feel lonely in your garden when that person isn't around. The mind candy is more addictive than any drug (hmmm, strong statement for a person who never tried drugs) and this kind of bonding is seemingly allmost impossible to cut. [. . . ] In the company of a mindmate you are somehow allways butt naked. The many facade layers we usually protect ourself with are allmost non-existant and you become vunerable as hell.
:mellow: Is that what that is? I'd never considered that. I've only experienced this once and actually, I just thought I was going a little psychotic. For those who wonder if you could ever actually get that close to someone, I hear you. I don't connect easily with people for the most part at all, but when you meet this "mindmate" it's like you develop a disturbing compulsion to hand over your soul on a silver platter. It's disconcertingly beautiful.

What I'm wondering is why N's have these rare, deep connection "____ mates" and S's have simple ones. It seems to me anyone could be a helpmate or a playmate. Perhaps there's some selection to be done, but not nearly as much as with us picky N's. We're doomed, aren't we? :sadbanana:

Miss Anthropic

27 Jun 2006, 06:06 AM

It's not cynical bunny season just yet, is it?
Its always cynical bunny season.....

Miss Anthropic

27 Jun 2006, 06:13 AM

It's tough when you feel a connection with somebody and wonder if they feel it back. Sometimes they haven't reached a point in their life where they understand that type of connection. Makes me wonder what I have missed. Soulmate(NF) - Mindmate (NT) connections are very nice, but there are significant differences that could be missed.

How can it be a "connection" if it is one-sided--that is one person is getting it and the other is not. Isn't that just being drawn or attracted to a person?

Xander

27 Jun 2006, 10:04 AM

I think I have a mind mate (this paranoia is one thing we share). I don't know if my SO would like or understand it as despite being an S she still wants me to discuss all my ideas with her and would probably get jealous if there is someone who I do discuss with and at a rate which is perhaps unmatched. Oh and of course it never helps if it's a girl does it.

I think that for me my mind mate is one of those who can not only understand what I'm saying but is also able to understand why I said it. We have had many a discussion where one of us picks up what we think the other is thinking or feeling and won't say anything incase it's wrong. We have broached some difficult topics and come out talking though the number of times :duel: is used to draw attention to the stage we have reached again is remarkable.

As to the whole emotional infidelity thing, yes I do occasionally feel this but I would be at a loss to explain why. My mind mate is a long swim away and I can't tread water so it's not like we're going to abscond or anything but I suppose it would be the want that would be the trouble. The thing is with me is that somedays I do want to run off and spend the week just with the information pinging back and forth like olympic table tennis. That's not to say I'm unfaithful but it is rare for me to find people who can understand me without explanaition. It is even rarer still to find someone who can not only predict but foretell too.

Oh and mind candy :banana:
(And no calories too!!! The healthiest form of candy ? :think:)

Park

27 Jun 2006, 10:14 AM

Is a mindmate always a member of the sex to which you are attracted?

Or does it matter?

There are certain areas of ones inner garden which a person you feel no sexual attraction to can never enter. Like unconsciously encircling an part of that inner world with a fence with a "no access" sign. I have had periods where my connection with my first mindmate was less intense in sexual mental attraction (did I just write that) than others and it did make a difference. The connection became a bit painfull (my favorite word at this moment) since there were suddenly something missing.

Park

27 Jun 2006, 10:59 AM

I don't connect easily with people for the most part at all, but when you meet this "mindmate" it's like you develop a disturbing compulsion to hand over your soul on a silver platter. It's disconcertingly beautiful.

Yes, and what you give, you can't take back. When two mindpatterns are weaved togeather like that I'm not sure if they can be seperated entierly again. I've realized that my connections will effect me for the rest of my life. Perhaps one day I'll figure out a way to live with them in a manner which wohn't effect me so much.

What I'm wondering is why N's have these rare, deep connection "____ mates" and S's have simple ones. It seems to me anyone could be a helpmate or a playmate. Perhaps there's some selection to be done, but not nearly as much as with us picky N's. We're doomed, aren't we? :sadbanana:

Yes.

Xander

27 Jun 2006, 11:47 AM

Yes, and what you give, you can't take back. When two mindpatterns are weaved togeather like that I'm not sure if they can be seperated entierly again. I've realized that my connections will effect me for the rest of my life. Perhaps one day I'll figure out a way to live with them in a manner which wohn't effect me so much.
You can walk away from a mirror can't you? They are helpful when you need them but they are not essential to being you.

I guess that it's different for each person or pair of people.

Park

27 Jun 2006, 12:25 PM

You can walk away from a mirror can't you? They are helpful when you need them but they are not essential to being you.

I guess that it's different for each person or pair of people.

The looking in the mirror methaphor don't paint a picture of how I experience or perceive these connections. I know how negative this may sound but I perceive it more as getting infected with some kind of chronic decease. Something which more or less will allways be a part of me. I've had years where the connection with my first mindmate only took up very little of my consciousness but it was allways there,,,.

Xander

27 Jun 2006, 01:00 PM

The looking in the mirror methaphor don't paint a picture of how I experience or perceive these connections. I know how negative this may sound but I perceive it more as getting infected with some kind of chronic decease. Something which more or less will allways be a part of me. I've had years where the connection with my first mindmate only took up very little of my consciousness but it was allways there,,,.
Sounds like platonic love to me. May explain the guilt thing too.

Park

27 Jun 2006, 01:38 PM

Sounds like platonic love to me. May explain the guilt thing too.

There is a difference between love and this mental connection eventhough the two sizes resembles each other a lot. ,,,and to be honest, I don't perceive love as more intimate for an NT than the mindmate connection.

Xander

27 Jun 2006, 02:41 PM

There is a difference between love and this mental connection eventhough the two sizes resembles each other a lot. ,,,and to be honest, I don't perceive love as more intimate for an NT than the mindmate connection.
Perhaps these are termed "mind mates" because you found your "love" first? It would seem to me that if the two are fairly indestinguishable then there would be no real need for the two terms. Apologies if this is off topic but I'm a little hazy about what exactly constitutes a "mind mate" in contrast to a "love".

LostInThoughts

27 Jun 2006, 03:10 PM

Perhaps these are termed "mind mates" because you found your "love" first? It would seem to me that if the two are fairly indestinguishable then there would be no real need for the two terms. Apologies if this is off topic but I'm a little hazy about what exactly constitutes a "mind mate" in contrast to a "love".

Xander,

I've only had opposite gender mindmates (I'm straight). For me the difference between a mindmate and love interest per se, is that there just wasn't a mutual attraction/spark/chemistry for us both. Had there been, the romantic love would've been taken to an even greater level.

Although timing seems an alternative explanation, in my experience that spark issue was an important one, and a defining one (no matter how much I wanted there to be a spark for the other, Mother Nature just didn't cooperate).

Nighthawk

27 Jun 2006, 03:27 PM

How can it be a "connection" if it is one-sided--that is one person is getting it and the other is not. Isn't that just being drawn or attracted to a person?

Semantic point taken ... I guess that would not be a connection ... perhaps a projection.

rivercrow

27 Jun 2006, 03:27 PM

Well, I have another comment from the devil's advocate camp. :devil:

How about THIS:
If both people in a mindmate situation had better developed Feeling/Sensing processes, these relationships would become romantic. Hence why NTs have these connections with other NTs.

Whereas, if an NT gets involved with another Type who has somewhat better developed Feeling/Sensing processes, the romance factor gets kicked up a notch--by the non-NT.

This could explain why in some NT:NT pairings there is romance rather than a mindmate connection. One has "more favorable percentages" of Feeling/Sensing than the other and romantic love ensues. (Given good chemistry otherwise and so forth.)

LostInThoughts

27 Jun 2006, 05:15 PM

Well, I have another comment from the devil's advocate camp. :devil:

How about THIS:
A.) If both people in a mindmate situation had better developed Feeling/Sensing processes, these relationships would become romantic. Hence why NTs have these connections with other NTs.

B.) Whereas, if an NT gets involved with another Type who has somewhat better developed Feeling/Sensing processes, the romance factor gets kicked up a notch--by the non-NT.

C.) This could explain why in some NT:NT pairings there is romance rather than a mindmate connection. One has "more favorable percentages" of Feeling/Sensing than the other and romantic love ensues. (Given good chemistry otherwise and so forth.)

rivercrow,

Interesting idea. I think the chemistry variable accounts for more variation, but this idea may help prediction.

In general, A. and B. both seem plausible to me.

Re C.) If I'm understanding correctly in the latter instance, let's say:

1.) Two NTs have a mild-moderate level of chemistry. With one or both more moderately NT (and hence higher levels of opposing SF faculties) their stimulus-driven and relational connection might be more likely to develop into a romantic interest rather than a mindmate relationship?

2.) So, to contrast, two NTs high on both attributes with the same level of chemistry would be more inclined to develop a mindmate relationship?

Is my understanding of C. accurate?

rivercrow

27 Jun 2006, 06:06 PM

rivercrow,

Interesting idea. I think the chemistry variable accounts for more variation, but this idea may help prediction.

In general, A. and B. both seem plausible to me.

Re C.) If I'm understanding correctly in the latter instance, let's say:

1.) Two NTs have a mild-moderate level of chemistry. With one or both more moderately NT (and hence higher levels of opposing SF faculties) their stimulus-driven and relational connection might be more likely to develop into a romantic interest rather than a mindmate relationship?

2.) So, to contrast, two NTs high on both attributes with the same level of chemistry would be more inclined to develop a mindmate relationship?

Is my understanding of C. accurate?
Absolutely bang on.

Park and I worked on this theory yesterday, so I can't take full credit for it. I do think we need to consider writing a scientific paper on it and presenting it. Could be a major breakthrough for NTs everywhere. happppy :rolleyes:

LostInThoughts

27 Jun 2006, 07:37 PM

Absolutely bang on.

Park and I worked on this theory yesterday, so I can't take full credit for it. I do think we need to consider writing a scientific paper on it and presenting it. Could be a major breakthrough for NTs everywhere. happppy :rolleyes:

I imagine that the data are there from the Pygmaleon (sp?) Project. I'd also be curious to see how your hypothesis endured time (e.g., T1 -> T2 -> T3). Thus, condition A could be initially positive but overtime erode or perhaps an inverse pattern for the two hard-core NTs, initially bonding like mindmates, and alter developing a romantic relationship.

Regardless of the reality I enjoy the model and this thought experiment. A question though, at at intuitive level, how much more would you predict this to add to prediction after controlling for chemistry (and of course "chemistry" could entail different levels of S and F)?

Nighthawk

27 Jun 2006, 09:58 PM

Regardless of the reality I enjoy the model and this thought experiment. A question though, at at intuitive level, how much more would you predict this to add to prediction after controlling for chemistry (and of course "chemistry" could entail different levels of S and F)?

How about long-distance or internet relationships, where the physical chemistry is not a factor? I have had a long-distance soulmate (although we did bond physically at a later date) and an internet mindmate. Both have been very satisfying relationships.

rivercrow

28 Jun 2006, 02:53 AM

LostInThoughts

29 Jun 2006, 08:04 AM

How about long-distance or internet relationships, where the physical chemistry is not a factor? I have had a long-distance soulmate (although we did bond physically at a later date) and an internet mindmate. Both have been very satisfying relationships.

Well Nighthawk, I like your question in principle as it forces us to examine the situation from another angle, which attempts to control for the chemistry factor. I can try and answer your first question, and am curious about your personal experience with your latter comment.

Physical chemistry I would still regard a part of the equation even without seeing an internet chum. This is for three reasons. First, there is a tremendous amount of fantasy involved in internet relationships, and of course the brain is our number one erogenous zone. So, a fantasy life of its own could become attached to whatever soul- or mind-mate relationship was developing alongside or independently from this fantasy element.

Second, I doubt that interpersonal style is not partially represented in internet comms. For example, one individual knows how to flirt better than others, another may read with an uncommon and appropriate level of confidence, alternatively someone else is hilarious, etc. all of which affect "physical" chemistry. Perhaps more true for NTs/NFs than other types? I don't know, likely a separate issue...So regarding these social skills communicated over the internet -a correlation with extroversion, well perhaps, but I'd also say that the person may have learned to flirt well, act with directness and purpose, or entertain others via humor, perhaps or in part due to their level of physical appeal. Therefore, although I don't see this lady who I'm exchanging ideas with, she is still able to tease me flirtatiously, impress me, amuse me, or whatever and despite my not seeing her/knowing what she looks like, I may develop an attraction to her in ways that excede our more "intellectual" mind-mate connection. Further, the more N and P I have to my temperament (biologically substrates encoded for whatever reasons), the more possibilities and fantasy I might engage in about this interesting or mysterious other. Put simply, her personality interacts with my fantasy to create the felt chemistry...

Third, our unconscious is frickin' remarkable at sniffing out people for whom we have shit to work out, at least IMO, and this radar of sorts affects chemistry more than anything else. I have literally walked into a party full of strangers and been drawn to a woman who I would later find out was like a host of other women I'd been drawn to (i.e., an unconscious pattern of sorts).* That said, these women shared few physical characteristics, were not always that attractive, etc. The latter is viewed as an example rather than supporting evidence for my assertion.

With that said, I'm speaking out of my arse and off the top of my head, although the ideas aren't that bad as I review them now. How do these suggestions strike you?

Regarding your second point and more for my own curiosity, how much chemistry did you feel or develop as well as the -mates:
a.) prior to seeing your soul- and mind-mates, and
b.) after seeing them if this was indeed the case.

* And for my open (and silent) critics, these women did not happen to be bootylicious, amazon, or large-bosomed lasses...

Sally

29 Jun 2006, 08:29 AM

I've met one mindmate. Very, very confusing at first. We were very young. We didn't know what the hell we were dealing with. It wasn't a total disaster, but it wasn't very good. With time and distance... I've come to value the relationship for what it is. Effortless connection - two minds working together on the same page, at the same speed, picking up on the same... spin.... every time. Nothing more than that (not a soulmate, no spark), but nothing less.

I've met a playmate, too... And boy does that suck, by the way, when the relationship cools... Because there's nothing else there. At least it seems that way, at this point. :-p The play went away and now there's nothing. Nothing to feel any emotion about.... Just frustration at the lack.

Also, I do seem to follow the typical pattern. My mindmate is an NT, playmate an SP, and my most "soulful" friendships are with NFs - they understand me and care about me because they care about me, not because they rationally sympathize or empathize; not because of some external interest that can go away.

MasterMerk

29 Jun 2006, 11:13 AM

Nighthawk

29 Jun 2006, 02:56 PM

I've met a playmate, too... And boy does that suck, by the way, when the relationship cools... Because there's nothing else there. At least it seems that way, at this point. :-p The play went away and now there's nothing. Nothing to feel any emotion about.... Just frustration at the lack.

Ditto. I was married to a playmate. Lasted only 2 years ... and for one of those I was deployed overseas. Not much there at all when the play runs out.

Nighthawk

29 Jun 2006, 03:05 PM

With that said, I'm speaking out of my arse and off the top of my head, although the ideas aren't that bad as I review them now. How do these suggestions strike you?

Regarding your second point and more for my own curiosity, how much chemistry did you feel or develop as well as the -mates:
a.) prior to seeing your soul- and mind-mates, and
b.) after seeing them if this was indeed the case.

Actually, the suggestions strike me as quite possible. I don't doubt that there is some chemistry involved, even for a long distance meeting of the minds. The fact that both my soulmate and mindmate were/are of the opposite sex probably confirms this. I doubt I would have had a similar effect with a male.

I met the soulmate briefly prior to the beginning of our relationship. She was a flight attendant on the aircraft that took us over to the first gulf war, and I was the aircraft commander. There was some sort of spark and we exhanged addresses. We wrote to each other throught out the war and our relationship deepened through written word. She was one of the few people who wrote to me regularly. After the war, when my life went to shit, she invited me to her place in Hawaii to recuperate. We were platonic for about the first week, and then became physical. She was 12 years my senior, but a very attractive woman. So yes, there was a lot of physical chemistry there as well. I would even venture to say that the physical got in the way of the soulmate at times.

I've not met my mindmate in person, but I would be lying if I said there was no chemistry behind and throughout the communication.

htb

29 Jun 2006, 03:34 PM

Nighthawk

29 Jun 2006, 03:37 PM

Nighthawk, Sally: your "playmate" references parallel other descriptions of relationships to SPs, insofar as they are primarily material/physical and fail as if inevitably. Can an NT be satisfied with an SP -- or, given the impulsive character of a Keirsey Artisan, vice-versa?

Artisans have been the bane of my existence. Every financial disaster I've had has had an Artisan sitting in the middle of it. Relationship wise, they have been fun at the beginning ... and then usually degrade into a financial disaster. My perception of some Artisans is that they use people as tools.

Note: I still have some good friends who are Artisans. They seem well rounded and able to select their impulses better. I tend to get along particularly well with ISTPs, possibly because they are so close to INTPs.

htb

29 Jun 2006, 03:53 PM

I tend to get along particularly well with ISTPs, possibly because they are so close to INTPs.Agreed. Two INTPs I know, one male and one female, are very good friends with ISTPs of the respective same sex.

Edit:
My perception of some Artisans is that they use people as tools.Agreed, again. A long-standing friend of mine is an ESTP, and though he is relatively thoughtful for a promoter, I have always seen myself as a handler who only steps into a tiger cage because he's known the residing big cat from its birth. On the other hand, Ni and Se connect rather well, and the ESTP's an encouraging voice for risk-taking and optimism.

cafe

29 Jun 2006, 04:25 PM

Interesting thread.
I think I connect with all my closest friends as soulmates regardless of their type. The bond will be created differently depending on the person, but if there is no bond of souls, they are not my close friend. There are still, however, other facets to each relationship.

I love the mindplay that I can have with NTs. It's so freeing not to be absorbed with values and emotions. I feel as though my INTP is my soulmate because he cares to connect and bond with me in ways that are meaningful to me. I think maybe my delight in mind play and my ability to dream with him helps in some way to meet his need for a mind mate. But when we met, there was an instant bond. It was as if I had always known him. Like meeting an old friend for the first time.

One of my favorite playmates is an ENFP. She and I can engage in play on several levels, but we also have the soulmate bond.

I have found that my sister-in-law and very dear friend and I keep our bond better when we speak over the phone. She is an ISFJ and when we are physically together, it bothers her that I do not naturally take up the role of helpmate.

I have experienced the mirror-like bond with an INFJ friend of my own age and gender who I haven't met. The sensation is a very interesting one. It causes the strangest combination of comfort and discomfort. Normally, for anyone to be able to get inside my head and know what I'm thinking, a large investment of time and effort has been made by both of us. The time and effort builds a sense of loyalty and trust. With the mirror relationship, that can be bypassed and that is a vulnerable position to find oneself in. It's very pleasant, but also disconcerting.

cafe

29 Jun 2006, 04:27 PM

My perception of some Artisans is that they use people as tools.
That would almost explain some of my mother's ideas and behaviors. Interesting.

Shimpei

29 Jun 2006, 05:50 PM

I think mindmate and soulmate are very close conceptions and it's not that easy to separate them.

LostInThoughts

29 Jun 2006, 06:06 PM

htb

29 Jun 2006, 06:32 PM

get 'em young, ride 'em hard, and trade 'em in before they gather too much mileage...That is, however, the modus operandi of many ESxP males; particularly the first clause.

eyebyte_atWork

29 Jun 2006, 06:38 PM

Are we sure we are not projecting what we want to onto others???

C.J.Woolf

29 Jun 2006, 06:40 PM

I think of SPs like cars and my women, get 'em young, ride 'em hard, and trade 'em in before they gather too much mileage...(sophomoric post I know, only joking)
I imagine SPs think of you the same way. Now who will trade whom in first?

LostInThoughts

29 Jun 2006, 06:45 PM

I imagine SPs think of you the same way. Now who will trade whom in first?

They do of course! After all, I'm a lazy bastard and they're like American made vehicles, a dime a dozen...(just poking fun SPs and Detroit auto-workers)...

panda

29 Jun 2006, 07:48 PM

I think of SPs like cars and my women, get 'em young, ride 'em hard, and trade 'em in before they gather too much mileage...(sophomoric post I know, only joking)
Weak. At least have the balls to own up to it.

Park

29 Jun 2006, 11:29 PM

We were platonic for about the first week, and then became physical. She was 12 years my senior, but a very attractive woman. So yes, there was a lot of physical chemistry there as well. I would even venture to say that the physical got in the way of the soulmate at times.

I've not met my mindmate in person, but I would be lying if I said there was no chemistry behind and throughout the communication.

I meet my first mindmate on the island of Rhodes in Greece and the second one on the internet - I chat with my second mindmate on a daily basis. When I compare the clarity in the communication I've had with both, I would actually say that the lack of physicall interaction with my second mindmate has enabled us to build up a mental connection much faster than I did with my first mindmate.

I think that INTPs, INTJs, INFPs and INFJs are able to obtain a clearer communication through online chatting than any other fast communication form. Online chatting gives the introverts an unique possibility to remain introvert while carrying out fast extrovert communication.

Lee

30 Jun 2006, 12:00 AM

So where do you get one of these "mindmates"?

ryan_m_parr

30 Jun 2006, 12:11 AM

Ahh. . . Mind fucks. . .

htb

30 Jun 2006, 12:37 AM

So where do you get one of these "mindmates"?In serendipity.

attila_the_hunny

30 Jun 2006, 02:13 AM

So where do you get one of these "mindmates"?

On teh internet?

LostInThoughts

30 Jun 2006, 04:06 AM

Weak. At least have the balls to own up to it.

enigmacrypt,

Your posts continue to be like my large intestine, stinky and full of danger...

Toonia

30 Jun 2006, 07:10 AM

I've meet two in my life. One when I was about 19 and another quite recently. Now, all I can say is that this kind of connection throughoutly fucks up your mind. I've lived most of my life inside my own mind - partly because I enjoyed being alone up there and partly because I only meet two people who were able to really enter. When you meet people who are capable of entering that (for me) most intimate part of your mind - weird things happen. First of all, you get company up there - a very strange experience. I gues that was what Adam feelt when he meet Eve - wow, I'm not alone in this garden anymore how cool is that? It really is so encredible sweet to be able to go for a walk in that intimate garden with another person. However, the back side is that you easily start to feel lonely in your garden when that person isn't around. Wow Park, that is absolutely beautiful. I find this thread to be deeply moving. I want to contribute something more, but need to go to sleep now.

I would very much like to hear your experiences with this? To be honest, I don't find these mindmate connections particulary easy to live with. I'm married and to some extend I feel that having this kind of bond with another person resembles emotionally infidelity. I would rather want my husbond to go out and be physicall unfaithfull to me than have this kind of bond with another person (male or female (ehh he is not gay)). It is somehow to intimate to be regarded as purely friendship.Relationships are complex, and it may be that if he were to form such a bond it would be a drastically different scenario than if you do. On the one hand it is good to go by the golden rule and not behave in any way you wouldn't want your partner to, but as my relationship grows I have found that we are different enough that the same actions by either of us are profoundly different in intent and dynamic. Just to note the mind blowing complexity of individuals and relationships. We do have to understand our own needs and allow ourselves to be a complete person, and work to fulfill the needs of the people we love. (No one should be expected to fill all the needs of another person)

Park

30 Jun 2006, 10:04 AM

So where do you get one of these "mindmates"?

,,,carefull what you ask for. Mine was pure coincidences but thinking about it - it really shouldn't be that difficult. You'r smart Lee, where do NT/NF types usually hang out IRL and on the internet? Once you figure that out - go hunt down some mind candy.

LostInThoughts

30 Jun 2006, 02:11 PM

...I would very much like to hear your experiences with this? To be honest, I don't find these mindmate connections particulary easy to live with. I'm married and to some extend I feel that having this kind of bond with another person resembles emotionally infidelity. I would rather want my husbond to go out and be physicall unfaithfull to me than have this kind of bond with another person (male or female (ehh he is not gay)). It is somehow to intimate to be regarded as purely friendship.

Park,

Three thoughts:
1.) If your SO knows about the other relationship, its nature, and your feelings about it, and he doesn't have a problem with any of it, that may not meet criteria for infidelity...

2.) Men are typically MUCH more affected by physical infidelity, while women typically are MUCH more affected by emotional infidelity. Therefore, you may feel a level of violation that your beau doesn't or perhaps wouldn't. He may even feel a sense of relief that he needn't be responsible satisfying another need of yours. This is part of why the gay male friends of their wives are so popular among some husbands, these "girlfriends" of the wife take loads of shopping responsibilities off the beau.;)

3.) I'm curious about the course of both of your relationships. In my experience with women, even without physical chemistry at the outset, emotional intimacy often lead to the this, and this may be worth monitoring as it could represent a threat to the integrity of your marriage.* In saying this, please hear nothing about your character, only about the probabilities of engaging in certain behaviors. That is, this is not an attack.

* marriages without monogamy, unless polygamous marriages, are not IMO marriages at all. That is, people with alternative lifestyles - swingers or whatever - don't have marriages as far as I'm concerned, rather psuedo ones that are usually bound to end unless some other compulsive behavior (such as drugs) gets to them first. This isn't trolling, just my view and worth mentioning as it has a bearing on this post.

Toonia

30 Jun 2006, 03:02 PM

I am an advocate of not assigning guilt to any feeling that comes across our way. The important issue is the choices we make in response to our feelings. I watched Eyes Wide Shut, and found myself with a drastically different take on human sexuality than what was presented there. When the woman confessed her intense sexual fantasy about the man in uniform - I did not hear infidelity, like her husband did who responded with jealousy. I heard that she had a need that wasn't met, the uniformed man was a symbol of filling that need. I thought her husband should figure out to not take it personally, surprise her wearing a uniform and attempt to fulfill her need.

If a person is drawn to forming mindmates, they have a legitimate need that should be filled. When in a monogamous relationship, one's partner needs to understand that need exists (it can be very hard to articulate exactly what it is) so they can understand that either they or someone else needs to fill it. If we reject our needs, they will accumulate and eventually destroy intimacy. There is balance needed. I will go ahead and be candid and confessional. I went through a period of time when even though I was married, was very neglected both personally and professionally. As an almost completely overlooked person, married to someone who needed to withdraw from me, I had really deep needs not being met. I had a colleague who flirted terribly with me. I told my husband everything and he was never hurt by it. The colleague didn't care that much about me and it was a horrible experience to feel so vulnerable, helpless, and having deep needs toyed with. No fidelity lines were crossed, but after that experience I understand the value of filling needs for intimacy with people on the internet or elsewhere with whom there will never be an option of crossing certain lines. It can be a very creative and useful solution to the need for intimacy. As a person I am still someone neglected overall in my life and need validation. I have a male friend online who also needs certain types of validation which I have tried to offer. To me it feels like a very safe solution, but I do involve my SO and let him read correspondence, but he doesn't usually care to. I would feel a little funny if he did the same thing because in our relationship, based on personality and circumstance, I tend to fill more of his needs than he fills of mine, so if he also ventured online it could feel like him withdrawing further. When I go online I am not withdrawing from him, but trying to find creative ways to lesson the responsibility on him to fill my needs.

Park

30 Jun 2006, 03:21 PM

Park,

Three thoughts:
1.) If your SO knows about the other relationship, its nature, and your feelings about it, and he doesn't have a problem with any of it, that may not meet criteria for infidelity...

Perhaps not but it meets my criteria for infidelity. My inner world is my essence, the people I share this part with gets the best of me.

2.) Men are typically MUCH more affected by physical infidelity, while women typically are MUCH more affected by emotional infidelity. Therefore, you may feel a level of violation that your beau doesn't or perhaps wouldn't. He may even feel a sense of relief that he needn't be responsible satisfying another need of yours. This is part of why the gay male friends of their wives are so popular among some husbands, these "girlfriends" of the wife take loads of shopping responsibilities off the beau.;)

Dunno about this,,,but it could be. I think I would feel less unfaithfull if I just went out and got laid the good old-fashioned way.

3.) I'm curious about the course of both of your relationships. In my experience with women, even without physical chemistry at the outset, emotional intimacy often lead to the this, and this may be worth monitoring as it could represent a threat to the integrity of your marriage.* In saying this, please hear nothing about your character, only about the probabilities of engaging in certain behaviors. That is, this is not an attack.

I've never been physically unfaithfull but erotic fantazies do play a part in connection with my mindmates and I understand what you'r saying. Geographicall distance between me and my mindmates does create a barriere which I should probably be thankfull for.

C.J.Woolf

30 Jun 2006, 03:46 PM

I would feel a little funny if he did the same thing because in our relationship, based on personality and circumstance, I tend to fill more of his needs than he fills of mine, so if he also ventured online it could feel like him withdrawing further. When I go online I am not withdrawing from him, but trying to find creative ways to lesson the responsibility on him to fill my needs.
Yes, context. If what you're doing is at your partner's expense, only then is it infidelity. I can never judge any particular action without knowing the context.

rivercrow

30 Jun 2006, 03:53 PM

Perhaps not but it meets my criteria for infidelity. My inner world is my essence, the people I share this part with gets the best of me.
Gosh Park--I guess I need to stop PMing you, then! :smooch:

Park

30 Jun 2006, 03:57 PM

If a person is drawn to forming mindmates, they have a legitimate need that should be filled.

I'm not sure if that is the case. I didn't have much mindcandy before I meet my recent mindmate but I had/have lots of other things which I found/find to be mentally stimulating in my life.

Humans have a bazillion different things which we could easily live without if we hadn't intergrated them in our lives - mobile phones, computers etc. I didn't feel I was missing something before I meet my recent mindmate I just quickly became addicted to the mental connection.

rivercrow

30 Jun 2006, 04:00 PM

I'm not sure if that is the case. I didn't have much mindcandy before I meet my recent mindmate but I had/have lots of other things which I found/find to be mentally stimulating in my life.

Humans have a bazillion different things which we could easily live without if we hadn't intergrated them in our lives - mobile phones, computers etc. I didn't feel I was missing something before I meet my recent mindmate I just quickly became addicted to the mental connection.
This cries out for a comment on desire and avarice and maya, but I don't have the time or words to express it.

Park

30 Jun 2006, 04:07 PM

Gosh Park--I guess I need to stop PMing you, then! :smooch:

Hehehe - yes but there are certain areas of my inner garden which, for female mindmates, has a *no access* sign on them. I gues I don't mind female mindmates peeking or commenting from the sideline - however, the ticket to active participation has *testosterone* stamped on it.

Toonia

30 Jun 2006, 04:22 PM

Yes, context. If what you're doing is at your partner's expense, only then is it infidelity. I can never judge any particular action without knowing the context.I should add that even though the same action can mean different things from different partners, I am still an advocate for fair play. If my SO communicated online the same as me, I would feel a need to accept or address it openly. If a person in a relationship has a need that isn't filled, I feel they should give their SO first dibs, but if that is not something they can do, then it's important to be open about finding solutions. If you leave needs to fester and grow it WILL eventually ruin intimacy. This is why relationships are challenging. You simply cannot be in a healthy relationship being a martyr. Each person needs to be able to stand on their own ground and feel like a complete person.

Humans have a bazillion different things which we could easily live without if we hadn't intergrated them in our lives - mobile phones, computers etc. I didn't feel I was missing something before I meet my recent mindmate I just quickly became addicted to the mental connection.That's an interesting perspective and rather different from my assumptions, but something very worth considering. I have tended to assume that the underlying needs are more constant and the way they are expressed changes. If an underlying need is for communication, then whether it is letter writing, mobile phones, internet, etc. it only changes method. An introverted or extraverted person would still spend the same amount of energy communicating as before, but using different methods. But my assumption is that method changes, but that doesn't prove the underlying need doesn't change. I would suggest that it is at least more resistent to change?

To use myself as an example: I should be used to being overlooked and a little neglected by now because it isn't a brand new experience. Because human beings have a basic need to be acknowledged, a history of being overlooked can exacerbate the need rather than creating a status quo. We also have a need to form intimate bonds. It's hard for me to see this as changing, but rather as something we discover?

Lee

30 Jun 2006, 05:05 PM

,,,carefull what you ask for. Mine was pure coincidences but thinking about it - it really shouldn't be that difficult. You'r smart Lee, where do NT/NF types usually hang out IRL and on the internet? Once you figure that out - go hunt down some mind candy.Why do you use ",,,," instead of "...."?

Psy-goat

30 Jun 2006, 05:17 PM

Lee

30 Jun 2006, 05:26 PM

my guess is that commas imply a pause in coming to a conclusion, a P trait, periods imply bringing things to a conclusion, a J trait."..." are known as elipses, usually used to mean "there is more to come" or "ommited or irrelevent content." But they are also used as a substitute for gaps in speech, which cannot be easily conveyed in writing. For example, they may be used to give a sense of comic timing at the punchline of a joke.

But the ",,," is just odd looking, and I have never seen anyone but Park use it.

LostInThoughts

30 Jun 2006, 06:24 PM

Park,

Your sentiments seem to support my propositions. You (as a woman) feel that the emotional intimacy is closer to infidelity than your having a quickie with a stranger. I'll wager as much money as you care to bet that your male SO will feel just the opposite. I'm curious who's right after all.

In general and in partial response to Toonia's comments,

I go by "informed consent" as a guide such that I respect another's autonomy to make mature adult decisions. That said, I also know that as human beings we are often not that mature or adult in our decision making...

Toonia,

I'm surprised that you allow yourself to be so neglected. You may have enough experience to know that your hubby is as close as he'll ever be, but I frankly doubt this, and believe you underestimate his capacity for intimacy. That said, is there a part of your experience in which YOU WANT to have intimacy needs met elsewhere. I'm going off on a limb here as I only know you from your posts here, but having learned of you thus far, I see some behavioral inconsistencies, or perhaps am jumping to conclusions. If this is not too invasive, I'm curious what you think.

cafe

30 Jun 2006, 06:58 PM

As a person I am still someone neglected overall in my life and need validation. I have a male friend online who also needs certain types of validation which I have tried to offer. To me it feels like a very safe solution, but I do involve my SO and let him read correspondence, but he doesn't usually care to. I would feel a little funny if he did the same thing because in our relationship, based on personality and circumstance, I tend to fill more of his needs than he fills of mine, so if he also ventured online it could feel like him withdrawing further. When I go online I am not withdrawing from him, but trying to find creative ways to lesson the responsibility on him to fill my needs.
*hugs Toonia* I have felt this way during a few different periods. It is unfun.

Eli

30 Jun 2006, 07:29 PM

Toonia

30 Jun 2006, 07:32 PM

Toonia,

I'm surprised that you allow yourself to be so neglected. You may have enough experience to know that your hubby is as close as he'll ever be, but I frankly doubt this, and believe you underestimate his capacity for intimacy.I wouldn't call it a lack of intimacy. That's the part that is so unlike anything I expected. We have a unusually high level of honesty, trust, and mutual kindness.

That said, is there a part of your experience in which YOU WANT to have intimacy needs met elsewhere. I'm going off on a limb here as I only know you from your posts here, but having learned of you thus far, I see some behavioral inconsistencies, or perhaps am jumping to conclusions. If this is not too invasive, I'm curious what you think.Another danger in such conversations as this one is people's assumptions about what these outside connections are actually like. I make an effort to keep one level of distance, by focusing my sexual energy into something creative for or about the person rather than directed solely at the person.

A person can get by with not having needs met in their profession OR personal lives. When you face the same problem in both scenarios it is compounded. If it's one or the other you can survive it by taking refuge away from the source. Professionally I am ridiculously neglected in part because my field is so cut throat and supply-demand is against me. I have three grad degrees including a doctorate and have earned the respect of world class people in my field, but cannot find much employment. I have had peers treat me with hideous disrespect and exploitation - after which I cut professional ties.

Besides this, during my adolescence and development, I felt hideous (wasn't btw). I consider myself to be pretty and capable of sensual appeal. But I'm 36 and wonder how many more years I will be. It took me so many years to be able to feel that way, and I feel I cheated myself. Perhaps most people would be floored by my absolute honesty with my SO. I do nothing in secret and he is not ever hurt by it and never feels any possessiveness. I don't think I prefer going elsewhere (for admiration, feminine acknowledgment and validation, nothing more btw), but have developed a little bit of a habit of expecting to. It has completely opened my eyes to the complexities of humans and interrelationships. It has also made me less judgemental of other people. I can now see how a completely kind and generous person can overly connect with someone, and it's no longer clear to me if it is wrong. Life just doesn't fit into neat little packages of any kind. I look more at results than processes now - individuals need to feel honestly fulfilled, and they need to find a way to achieve that without hurting and disrespecting the people they love.

bergenski

30 Jun 2006, 07:33 PM

But the ",,," is just odd looking, and I have never seen anyone but Park use it.
She's just a rookie.

LostInThoughts

30 Jun 2006, 07:44 PM

1.) I wouldn't call it a lack of intimacy.
2.) Professionally I am ridiculously neglected in part because my field is so cut throat and supply-demand is against me. I have three grad degrees including a doctorate, and have earned respect by world class people in my field, but cannot find much employment...
3.)... I do nothing in secret and he is not ever hurt by it and never feels any possessiveness. I don't think I prefer going elsewhere (for admiration, feminine acknowledgment and validation, nothing more btw), but have developed a little bit of a habit of expecting to. It has completely opened my eyes to the complexities of humans and interrelationships. It has also made me less judgemental of other people.

Toonia,

1.) I guess it sounded like intimacy is a part of the internet needs that are fulfilled online or with a mindmate say, to compensate for a gap at home with your SO? Perhaps I'm projecting this?

2.) How frickin' awful! That disgusts me, to work so hard for so long and not to have appropriate compensation...I'm very sorry to hear this...

3.) For me and my relationships (and therefore no moral judgment on others) I prefer to care for my relationship so that a (physical is my concern) affair doesn't have the chance to occur. So, rather than feeling neglected or whatever, and falling for someone else other than my partner (or vice versa), I see there being a serious problem in the relationship that requires attention and the couple's addressing it more thoroughly. What results will result, but the relationship has been involved in the process that maintains it or creates its demise.

outcast

30 Jun 2006, 08:26 PM

Toonia, I agree with some of the assertions you have made and in particular the one about needing different levels of intimacy and realizing that your spouse may not be capable of fulfilling that like you would wish. Life is not easy to package up like you said. And, I appreciate your transparency about your personal life and your humility as such.

Concerning mindmates/soulmates - if I am distinguishing this properly. NT's like my hubby make a fine mindmate per se. We understand one another and often think alike despite my being NF. We rarely lack for deep conversation and he pretty much accepts me as I am most of the time. As far as soulmates go, however, I would have to say that my soulmate is definitely a NF. Some may pity me that I don't say my hubby is my soulmate, but they shouldn't. As a very wise woman once told me, relationships like I have with my NF are the "fire" but it is up to me what to do with it. I choose to be open about it w/hubby and to keep it totally platonic at all times. That's not always easy or fun, but it works for me.

I love my ENTP hubby very much, but I would have to pick an INFJ as a soulmate just b/c of the ease and level of understanding that exists naturally. Even though I didn't understand all of this when I married, I wouldn't change who I chose as my companion at this point.

Park

30 Jun 2006, 08:57 PM

Why do you use ",,,," instead of "...."?

Didn't notish that before now - we do it the other way around in Danish, use commas instead of full stop ",,,,". I'll have to see if I can remember to do it differently in English.

Park

30 Jun 2006, 09:05 PM

Lee

30 Jun 2006, 09:12 PM

Didn't notish that before now - we do it the other way around in Danish, use commas instead of full stop ",,,,". I'll have to see if I can remember to do it differently in English.No reason to change. I was only curious.

bergenski

30 Jun 2006, 09:12 PM

Could be related to gender but it could also be related to whether you are a N or a S type.
Emotional unfaithfulness makes me wonder why you shall stay married. Though perhaps marriage has different connotations in Denmark than here.

Park

30 Jun 2006, 09:15 PM

Emotional unfaithfulness makes me wonder why you shall stay married. Though perhaps marriage has different connotations in Denmark than here.

Simple - I love my husbond.

bergenski

30 Jun 2006, 09:19 PM

Simple - I love my husbond.
I guess that is pretty simple.

rivercrow

1 Jul 2006, 01:11 AM

Nighthawk,

How do you mange being the helpmate your wife wants /needs? I am marrried to an ISFJ and find it very difficult to be a helpmate. I have the feeling that I am swimmimg upstream not getting very far and I wear myself out in the process.
Another INTP:ISFJ pairing.

I didn't check. Are you a guy or a gal?

I keep hoping to meet another INTP chick paired to an ISFJ dude, but haven't yet.

Eli

1 Jul 2006, 02:04 AM

I'm an INTP gal married to an ISFJ guy - Nice to meet you Rivercrow.

Nighthawk

1 Jul 2006, 06:07 PM

If we reject our needs, they will accumulate and eventually destroy intimacy.

Very succinctly and well put. I find myself facing that on an almost daily basis.

Nighthawk

1 Jul 2006, 06:22 PM

Nighthawk,

How do you mange being the helpmate your wife wants /needs? I am marrried to an ISFJ and find it very difficult to be a helpmate. I have the feeling that I am swimmimg upstream not getting very far and I wear myself out in the process.

It is not easy, and is still a constant source of friction after almost 15 years of marriage. The flip side of the coin that I cannot find mind candy at home. If my life is stable and I'm not facing any problems, I can give her most of what she needs in terms of help. It takes a conscious and constant effort on my part to step in with the physical stuff that is unimportant to me: dishes, vacuuming, dusting, the yard, house decoration, cooking, feeding/caring for the pets, uncluttering the house, cleaning the garage, etc. Even when I work at my own full capacity as a helpmate, I feel that it is barely enough for her.

When my life is out of balance, like it has been the past few months (job situation), I tend to withdraw and drop most of my helpmate interaction. This has a very profound affect on her and she see's me as being irresponsible and "out of control" as she likes to put it. Control seems to be a big issue with her (and some other SJs I know) ... and she honestly thinks that she knows what is best for me. When I slack in the helpmate department, she starts making lists of things for me to do on a daily basis. Very annoying. At this point, I usually become very resentful towards her because I almost never get my mindmate needs met by her, yet she is complaining because I dropped the helpmate stuff for a while.

In all honesty, I don't think she knows what a mindmate is ... despite my great efforts to explain it to her. She seems to believe it is just some sort of ethereal fantasy in my mind that has no bearing on reality. For her, intimacy translates directly from how much you help your partner in the concrete world, and mental connection means nothing. When I meet her helpmate criteria, she cannot understand why there is still little intimacy. The closest I came to a mindmate connection with her was when she was in grad school and I would help her with her studies on an almost daily basis.

A long rant, I know. Hopefully it underscores how difficult the helpmate vs. mindmate relationship is.

Nighthawk

1 Jul 2006, 06:27 PM

An introverted or extraverted person would still spend the same amount of energy communicating as before, but using different methods. But my assumption is that method changes, but that doesn't prove the underlying need doesn't change.

In my case, I communicate a lot more now (with IM and email) than I ever did using other means prior to the Internet. I find that I socialize less in person now than I did years ago. It is odd, but that seems to have fueled more of a need inside me to communicate ... and I find myself drawn to the Internet on a daily basis to do so. During years past, I would have used that time to read and write ... in my own world ... but the Internet portal is my mind candy now. Not sure if that is a good thing, as my productivity has gone down a lot.

cafe

1 Jul 2006, 07:32 PM

In all honesty, I don't think she knows what a mindmate is ... despite my great efforts to explain it to her. She seems to believe it is just some sort of ethereal fantasy in my mind that has no bearing on reality. For her, intimacy translates directly from how much you help your partner in the concrete world, and mental connection means nothing.
This reminds me of one attempt I made to describe my marriage to someone I believe is an SJ. I forget what I even said, but the gist was that my husband I are friends and we get along well together and enjoy each other, but we are not helpmates to one another, do not work well together on practical things, or manage to accomplish much together, or really feel the need to. I was met with a totally blank stare. She was thinking, "What else is there?" It was so strange, like part of her brain was missing or something.

Nighthawk

1 Jul 2006, 08:01 PM

This reminds me of one attempt I made to describe my marriage to someone I believe is an SJ. I forget what I even said, but the gist was that my husband I are friends and we get along well together and enjoy each other, but we are not helpmates to one another, do not work well together on practical things, or manage to accomplish much together, or really feel the need to. I was met with a totally blank stare. She was thinking, "What else is there?" It was so strange, like part of her brain was missing or something.

Sounds very familiar. My mother and wife are both SJs. They are both primarily concerned with "the house." Indeed, the greatest criticism I receive is that I do not take care of "the house" enough. I think my wife gets enough mental stimulation at work ... doing service oriented things ... and does not need any more from me. Every day is centered around "what chores can you help me with." As for me, my service oriented stuff at work is mindless and devoid of mental stimulation ... so I seek it elsewhere ... and I certainly don't get that at home either.

Ivy

1 Jul 2006, 08:18 PM

Sounds very familiar. My mother and wife are both SJs. They are both primarily concerned with "the house." Indeed, the greatest criticism I receive is that I do not take care of "the house" enough. I think my wife gets enough mental stimulation at work ... doing service oriented things ... and does not need any more from me. Every day is centered around "what chores can you help me with." As for me, my service oriented stuff at work is mindless and devoid of mental stimulation ... so I seek it elsewhere ... and I certainly don't get that at home either.

This is just an off-the-cuff thought, and it might not have any relevance in your relationship, but sometimes when I ask for helpmate-type stuff, what I want is a workmate. I want him to keep me company and help me out, so we can shoot the shit while we declutter a room, say. We get into some pretty deep shit while we're folding laundry sometimes. :) Maybe you could try and refocus things so that when she asks you for help around the house, you two work together and have a conversation that you lead, so you're meeting each other's needs at the same time.

Eli

1 Jul 2006, 08:27 PM

Thank you for your "long rant" it describes my life and struggles probably much more clearly than I could have at this point. I do have some other thoughts I'll get them together and try to post later.

cafe

1 Jul 2006, 08:31 PM

This is just an off-the-cuff thought, and it might not have any relevance in your relationship, but sometimes when I ask for helpmate-type stuff, what I want is a workmate. I want him to keep me company and help me out, so we can shoot the shit while we declutter a room, say. We get into some pretty deep shit while we're folding laundry sometimes. :) Maybe you could try and refocus things so that when she asks you for help around the house, you two work together and have a conversation that you lead, so you're meeting each other's needs at the same time.
I have to admit that I do love a workmate when I can get one. It makes the time pass so much more pleasantly and quickly. I just pretty much know by now that there isn't much of a chance of that happening. He doesn't really like working with other people, even me. :( He has become a bit more willing over the years and now it's not out of the ordinary for him to at least hang out in the kitchen to keep me company while I cook supper if I ask. Lest he sound like a neanderthal, he works a physically demanding 60-70 hour week, while I do not work outside the home.

Ivy

1 Jul 2006, 08:37 PM

It takes a conscious and constant effort on my part to step in with the physical stuff that is unimportant to me: dishes, vacuuming, dusting, the yard, house decoration, cooking, feeding/caring for the pets, uncluttering the house, cleaning the garage, etc.

I found a lot of your post familiar, because these issues come up for us a lot. But I have to ask, and this is going to sound stick-in-the-mud-SJish, but how can all of these things be unimportant to you? I don't think they're interesting to anybody, even those of us who feel that they need to be done regularly. But aren't you even a little bit concerned with the dishes somehow becoming clean rather than smelling bad and attracting insects? I'm guessing you like your pets, or you at least don't want them to die of starvation, so isn't feeding them important to you?

This is probably the source of most of the frustration between ISFJ and INTP spouses. Sometimes, to the ISFJ, it can seem like the INTP feels license to not be interested in doing things that are necessary for the household to continue running, so the weight of them falls entirely onto the ISFJ. We know you're on another planet most of the time, but you mostly come back to earth when food is put onto a plate for you. We're just asking that you make the trip back to Earth once in awhile when there's no food in it for you. :)

Nighthawk

1 Jul 2006, 08:38 PM

This is just an off-the-cuff thought, and it might not have any relevance in your relationship, but sometimes when I ask for helpmate-type stuff, what I want is a workmate. I want him to keep me company and help me out, so we can shoot the shit while we declutter a room, say. We get into some pretty deep shit while we're folding laundry sometimes. :) Maybe you could try and refocus things so that when she asks you for help around the house, you two work together and have a conversation that you lead, so you're meeting each other's needs at the same time.

That's an interesting idea. I'll give it a shot :) Thanks. It is important to me to provide her with what she needs out of our relationship ... or I suppose it wouldn't bother me so much. Oh ... and I did the dishes today without being asked ;)

Ivy

1 Jul 2006, 08:41 PM

That's an interesting idea. I'll give it a shot :) Thanks. It is important to me to provide her with what she needs out of our relationship ... or I suppose it wouldn't bother me so much. Oh ... and I did the dishes today without being asked ;)

Somebody's getting some tonight! :banana:

Nighthawk

1 Jul 2006, 08:59 PM

I found a lot of your post familiar, because these issues come up for us a lot. But I have to ask, and this is going to sound stick-in-the-mud-SJish, but how can all of these things be unimportant to you? I don't think they're interesting to anybody, even those of us who feel that they need to be done regularly. But aren't you even a little bit concerned with the dishes somehow becoming clean rather than smelling bad and attracting insects? I'm guessing you like your pets, or you at least don't want them to die of starvation, so isn't feeding them important to you?

I do give it my best shot. It is just that when my life becomes unbalance (as is has been the past few months), my best shot is a lot less than it usually is. I feel shortchanged however, as she doesn't seem in the least bit interested in trying to be a mindmate. She dismisses it as irrelevant, even though it is just as important to me as the helpmate thing is to her.

There is also an issue of timing. I'm a play-before-work type person and I want my Saturdays left free. She wants to do a massive house cleaning on Saturday morning. Despite a lot of communication on that topic, we cannot seem to get on the same sheet of music. I won't let the house become a sty ... it is just that my tolerance level is higher. I'll let the dishes stack up for a day or two and then do them. She demands that they be done on her time table ... as with everything else.

Another point of contention is that I want to simplyfy my life in terms of physical overhead. She seems to want to complicate it. I would be happy with a small apartment or townhouse ... she wanted (and got) a big house. I didn't want any sort of yard ... she wanted (and got) a yard and pool. She won't take care of either, so I get stuck with that. I never wanted any pets ... she wanted (and got) two acquariums full of fish and a dog. Now she wants me to take care of them. No thank you. I wasn't consulted on getting them, nor did I want them. I will feed them however, because I don't want to see them suffer ... but bathing and grooming the dog is on her plate ... as is cleaning up his liberal sprinkling of feces.

The yard, pool, cars, computers, and bills are pretty much my domain. She won't touch any of them. We split dishes and cooking. I hate dealing with house cleaning however, because she has packed so much crap, furniture, and knick-knacks into the space that it takes half a day just to move everything to vacuum. Dusting is even worse. I don't want nor need all of that garbage and it annoys me. We've talked about this ad nauseum but she just keeps on buying more stuff for "the house." It borders on mental illness. She is very agressive about the house and has taken over every room in her style except my study ... and I have a very tenuous grip on it. I'm cool with that, but don't expect me to participate in home re-design every few months. It was fine the way it was and I have no interest in changing it around repeatedly.

In a nutshell, we have an uneasy truce with respect to the helpmate-mindmate thing. Lately I have been upset because I'm not getting mine, so I go on strike. Job problems have also been plaguing me, so my mind has not been focused as much on her needs. We should be able to work through all this however ... but it is difficult at times. I'm sure that being married to another type would come with a different set of assorted problems. ... and, I have my issues just as she does. I'm not a piece of cake to live with either, at times ;)

Nighthawk

1 Jul 2006, 09:01 PM

Somebody's getting some tonight! :banana:

Probably not. I haven't been mentally stimulated ;)

Ivy

1 Jul 2006, 09:46 PM

I do give it my best shot. It is just that when my life becomes unbalance (as is has been the past few months), my best shot is a lot less than it usually is. I feel shortchanged however, as she doesn't seem in the least bit interested in trying to be a mindmate. She dismisses it as irrelevant, even though it is just as important to me as the helpmate thing is to her.

Fair enough, and if I were your wife I would certainly be concerned about keeping you mentally satisfied (as I am with my husband). I think my problem is with thinking of it as a transaction (i.e. "I'll do my part of the housework if you engage with me mentally") when, to me, pulling your weight is just what you do when you live with someone. By the same token, I think engaging mentally with your spouse is part of marriage, so I'm not taking her "side" or anything. :) Especially when it looks like you're negotiating where the middle is, rather than being dragged into doing anything at all. As a nagging wife, I'd be satisfied with half of what you do, frankly. :)

Eli

1 Jul 2006, 09:52 PM

Ivy

1 Jul 2006, 10:00 PM

One thought that has occured to me is that a helpmate is great but all the things that a helpmate provides are all things I can do for myself. I, like you mentioned Nighthawk, will eventually get around to the dishes, laundry or vacuuming. In an intimate realtionship I am looking for a deeper connection. Someone with whom I can share and experience life on a more profound level, either through a mental connection or 'soul' connection. I already know that having a neet and tidy well run house would be great but it is not the most important thing to me. I cannot wrap my head around how that could possible provide someone with the feeling of intimacy. I do know, however, that that is what my husband looks for and is quite content when I do those things.

Since I seem to be the resident helpmate-seeker here, maybe I can shed some light on it. ISFJs are very much work-before-play oriented people. I'm not totally like that, but I do experience a small amount of anxiety if there's a lot of shit to be done. So, for me, it's difficult to get into the mindset of wanting to connect on that higher level when I can't relax because the house is a wreck. And if I don't feel that I'm being treated as an equal (when my INTP spouse seems content to let me do all the housework) it's hard to even want a deeper level of intimacy.

It's like with Maslow's hierarchy of needs, where you have to have your basic needs for food, shelter, and physical safety met before you can even recognize your other needs for mental and physical stimulation, and spirituality, or self-actualization or whatever. I think we are all getting our basic needs met (food/shelter/physical safety) so we're negotiating those other levels with our significant others.

Nighthawk

1 Jul 2006, 10:03 PM

It's like with Maslow's hierarchy of needs, where you have to have your basic needs for food, shelter, and physical safety met before you can even recognize your other needs for mental and physical stimulation, and spirituality, or self-actualization or whatever. I think we are all getting our basic needs met (food/shelter/physical safety) so we're negotiating those other levels with our significant others.

Now that is something I can understand :)

Shimpei

1 Jul 2006, 10:09 PM

cafe

1 Jul 2006, 10:20 PM

A lot of things that ought to get done at our house do not get done as often as they should or at times done at all. As an NF, I am pretty much fueled by strokes and positive feedback. As an I, I am low energy. As an IN, I can very easily escape into my head. My INTP does not care very much about the state of the house, etc. I can work my rear off on that stuff and get very little ROI. If I am simply pleasant, affectionate, and can make intelligent conversation, I get good ROI for that. I focus my energy on what gets me the most strokes. It's what I enjoy most anyway and though I hate the chaos that results, I can just hide in a book or online or something like that. I do not approve of this method or recommend it, though, and I often feel guilty and frustrated about my domestic failings.

Shimpei

1 Jul 2006, 10:25 PM

Since I seem to be the resident helpmate-seeker here, maybe I can shed some light on it. ISFJs are very much work-before-play oriented people. I'm not totally like that, but I do experience a small amount of anxiety if there's a lot of shit to be done. So, for me, it's difficult to get into the mindset of wanting to connect on that higher level when I can't relax because the house is a wreck. And if I don't feel that I'm being treated as an equal (when my INTP spouse seems content to let me do all the housework) it's hard to even want a deeper level of intimacy.

It's like with Maslow's hierarchy of needs, where you have to have your basic needs for food, shelter, and physical safety met before you can even recognize your other needs for mental and physical stimulation, and spirituality, or self-actualization or whatever. I think we are all getting our basic needs met (food/shelter/physical safety) so we're negotiating those other levels with our significant others.

Well said, however I think, the helpmate thing becomes this important when the more intimate (mind, soul etc.) connection is already there between the partners.
Initially the connection must be made on the level of insubstance.

Miss Anthropic

1 Jul 2006, 11:26 PM

Well said, however I think, the helpmate thing becomes this important when the more intimate (mind, soul etc.) connection is already there between the partners.
Initially the connection must be made on the level of insubstance.
True, but if the helpmate doesn't share the burden of everyday life the intimate connection that started it all can easily fade. I don't even know how this thread got from mindmates to helpmates the two are so far removed. If you bring marital relationships into it you realize that tasks of everyday existance take away from the "mindmate" relationship--which is why people who posted about mindmates weren't referring to their significant others.

Nighthawk

2 Jul 2006, 01:24 AM

If you bring marital relationships into it you realize that tasks of everyday existance take away from the "mindmate" relationship--which is why people who posted about mindmates weren't referring to their significant others.

Hmmmm ... so you're saying that the sharing of day-to-day drudgery (INTP point of view) detracts from becoming a mindmate with that person? ... and that would explain why mindmates are often not SOs? I'll have to think about that one. Very interesting.

Shimpei

2 Jul 2006, 05:36 AM

Hmmmm ... so you're saying that the sharing of day-to-day drudgery (INTP point of view) detracts from becoming a mindmate with that person?

I would say day-to-day drudgery easily kills intimacy on all levels. It takes a lot to keep the delicate balance for which, I think, the key is awareness.

Park

2 Jul 2006, 09:08 AM

True, but if the helpmate doesn't share the burden of everyday life the intimate connection that started it all can easily fade. I don't even know how this thread got from mindmates to helpmates the two are so far removed. If you bring marital relationships into it you realize that tasks of everyday existance take away from the "mindmate" relationship--which is why people who posted about mindmates weren't referring to their significant others.

Yesterday, I went to a party with my husbonds aunt and uncle - the most fashinating couple I know. They are both in their early 60ties, both NTs actually both INTPs. They've allways had a residence in Denmark but have lived in Africa for many years and are at this moment living on Greenland. This couple proves to me that some lucky/skilled people can have it all in a relationship. They have the mindmate connection, the helpmate connection and the playmate connection. I think a lot of different circumstances play a part in this rare relationship. When people are very good at things they make things look easy eventhought I know it couldn't have been. Somehow they just manage to encourage the best qualities in each other. In this relationship, helpmate tasks don't seem to take away from the mindmate connection - it actually seem to nurture it. Hmmm, perhaps a part of their secret lies within the fact that they've allways lived their life as if the world were created to fit the personality of an INTP. Perhaps I shouldn't even try to analyze their relationship at all - I could ask them later this week.

C.J.Woolf

2 Jul 2006, 03:49 PM

Somehow they just manage to encourage the best qualities in each other.
Do they encourage the best qualities in everyone they know? I suspect the answer is yes. It seems that an excellent relationship starts with two excellent people.

Two conclusions:

1. We tend to get the partner we deserve.

2. If you expect your partner to complete you, you'll probably be disappointed. (That's been said many times already.)

Park

2 Jul 2006, 04:21 PM

Do they encourage the best qualities in everyone they know? I suspect the answer is yes. It seems that an excellent relationship starts with two excellent people.

No, I wouldn't say that these two people encourage the best qualities in everyone they know. That would be a rare INTP feature I think. People their age find it difficult to understand why a couple their age don't just settle down like normal people would.

Two conclusions:

1. We tend to get the partner we deserve.

Never knew what to reply to statements like that. From an over-all point of view yes perhaps... but from a more nuanced angle - I dunno.

2. If you expect your partner to complete you, you'll probably be disappointed.

Why do you think that? Just to draw up my starting point, I never craved perfection from either myself or my partner and I never craved that we completed each other in every way. However, what's the point in living in a relationship if you arn't looking for something to compliment you in the first place?

C.J.Woolf

2 Jul 2006, 04:37 PM

2. If you expect your partner to complete you, you'll probably be disappointed.

Why do you think that? Just to draw up my starting point, I never craved perfection from either myself or my partner and I never craved that we completed each other in every way. However, what's the point in living in a relationship if you arn't looking for something to compliment you in the first place?
I think there is a distinction between "your partner completing you" and "your partner helping you to complete yourself". To me, the first implies expecting to get much more out of the relationship than you put into it. Something for nothing, if you will. The second says your partner has no magic wand; you're still ultimately responsible for improving yourself.

Or maybe I'm just splitting hairs. :whistle: Anyway, thank you for this thread.

Park

2 Jul 2006, 05:15 PM

I think there is a distinction between "your partner completing you" and "your partner helping you to complete yourself". To me, the first implies expecting to get much more out of the relationship than you put into it. Something for nothing, if you will. The second says your partner has no magic wand; you're still ultimately responsible for improving yourself.

Or maybe I'm just splitting hairs. :whistle: Anyway, thank you for this thread.

Your welcome :) .
Just to make this very clear, ever since I became and adult, I've taken full responsorbility for my own self-development/self-improvement. I function a lot better when I live alone than when I live in a relationship. So when I choose to gather up in a relationship/marriage it isn't because my basic needs arn't covered security wise, financially and to some extend even emotionally. I gues with my husbond, I just fell in love... very simple really.

Toonia

3 Jul 2006, 01:10 AM

Two conclusions:

1. We tend to get the partner we deserve.:nono:
This conclusion will keep every person in an abusive relationship exactly where they are. I just don't believe that a low self esteem is punishable by beating and name calling. We may end up with the partner we feel we deserve but that is by NO MEANS the one we actually deserve. Forgive my cynicism, but the majority of marriages I have witnessed involves one rather gentle, giving individual (often with low self esteem) married to a controlling, selfish, taker capable of little or no empathy. I will never say such icky awful people deserve someone giving and kind. THEY DON'T. Takers look for givers like a wolf watches a rabbit. It is just as often the woman as it is the man. I'm thankful to have avoided this snare, but many of the people closest to me have not. People need to be encouraged to believe they deserve to be treated with kindness or you end up with the gentlest people paired off with the complete psychos.

C.J.Woolf

3 Jul 2006, 04:17 AM

Your welcome :) .
Just to make this very clear, ever since I became and adult, I've taken full responsorbility for my own self-development/self-improvement. I function a lot better when I live alone than when I live in a relationship. So when I choose to gather up in a relationship/marriage it isn't because my basic needs arn't covered security wise, financially and to some extend even emotionally. I gues with my husbond, I just fell in love... very simple really.
I always had that impression of you, and I never meant to imply otherwise. As for me, I married my best friend. (Cue the puking chorus from the peanut gallery. :sick: :sick: :sick: :sick:)

C.J.Woolf

3 Jul 2006, 04:26 AM

:nono:
Crap, I didn't consider the low self-esteem issue. That's what I get for making such a categorical, right-wing, hard-ass statement. No, nobody deserves abuse. In a perfect world the gentle people would find each other and deprive the assholes of any partners but other assholes.

Park

3 Jul 2006, 12:46 PM

This is probably the source of most of the frustration between ISFJ and INTP spouses. Sometimes, to the ISFJ, it can seem like the INTP feels license to not be interested in doing things that are necessary for the household to continue running, so the weight of them falls entirely onto the ISFJ. We know you're on another planet most of the time, but you mostly come back to earth when food is put onto a plate for you. We're just asking that you make the trip back to Earth once in awhile when there's no food in it for you. :)

I posted this in my platform thread earlier on:

I've tried listing some different reason for escaping into apathy:

1. Wife/husbond shopping for clothes. It takes the man two sec. to obtain that special blank stare while the wife keeps on babbling "do you like this dress honey?, which color is best white or black?".

Reason for escaping into apathy "Lack of interest".

2. I've decided that we should clean the whole house this weekend and I've made a list of stuff to be done - blank stare.

Reason for escaping into apathy "Lack of commitment" (Things has been taken out of my hands and have been decided over my head).

3. From now on the house should be hovered at least once a day, dirty dishes must be taken care of immediately and you can't walk around in those old rags anymore - blank stare.

Reason for escaping into apathy "Balance disturbance" (Different standarts in living and different speed levels in carrying out things)".

My husbond don't bother me with things which don't interest me but nb.2 and 3 are frequent reasons for discussions. He carries out things at a different speed than me, has a higher standart and is more effective. The speed difference makes it easy for him to make quick decisions over my head and my respond is a total and absolute apathy. This is not laziness on my part - just a balance disturbance which I don't know how to deal with. I'm thinking that if I move out and live for myself, I'll be able to restore my own balance and become more well-functioned in my private life. Knowing what causes something is usually enough for me to find a solution but it just works differently in this case. Don't know if this is a good example but imagine that you lived with a person who literally were 10 times more intelligent and faster than you. By the end of the day there is a great risk you would loose your ability to act or think for yourself and it would be no ones fault. As I said, it may not be the best example (he isn't 10 times more ,,,,,,,, ) but it was the only one I could think of.

Another thing, I have SJ friends and family of whom I love dearly but I am not able to connect with them on an abstract level. I don't meen to sound offensive but I suspect that some SJs simply lack that ability just like some INTPs have problems coping with simple practicall everyday tasks. In other words, I don't allways think that connecting with a person mentally or doing practicall stuff togeather is only a matter of will, which can make the "you just need to try harder" attitude devastating for the person exposed to it...and in a SJ world, I find that SJ stuff is commonly rated a lot higher than mindcandy.

Ivy

3 Jul 2006, 12:58 PM

I posted this in my platform thread earlier on:

Interesting. I hate shopping too, so my INTP spouse is spared #1. :) Numbers 2 and 3, though, I do periodiocally try to get those things done. It's an urge I have, out of desperation when the house gets totally trashed, that maybe if we make it a regular thing it'll happen more.. uh, regularly. And before we worked some of this shit out, I was often met with the very apathy you describe.

To an ISFJ, that apathy can come off as "you're better at it than I am, so can you just do it all, please?" But I'm not really better at it. I'm just more anxious about it, so it's harder for me to forget about it. I'm no more overjoyed by the act of doing laundry than my INTP spouse is, but if I left it to him, it would never get done and we would end up wearing burlap sacks because his standards for fashion are also much different from mine. :)

Anyway, I'm even boring myself with this workmate crap, so I'll stop. :)

Toonia

3 Jul 2006, 04:07 PM

I would say day-to-day drudgery easily kills intimacy on all levels. It takes a lot to keep the delicate balance for which, I think, the key is awareness.I can see this to a point, but also feel that a lot of information about a person is shared in how they approach day-to-day tasks. I'm not sure you can actually know someone intimately and have a realistic understanding of them until you see how they solve the most mundane of problems. This is the only way you can know their true character. People can say anything to appear any way that suits them. All the great actors are not in Hollywood. It's really when you see someone face inconveniences, mundane troubles, sore disappointment that you can even begin to know who they really are on a basic level.

I feel like loving a help-mate gives you a context and an all-encompassing understanding of the other person with fragments missing. Someone I connect with online I know fragments of without a real context. While it's true anyone can do the dishes, when he does them it is to relieve me from it - no maid will care about me. She/he will rightfully do it for the money. It's not the same. (Although I'm not entirely against the idea of hiring a maid!!) I know a great deal about my SO based on his approach to everyday living. For example: he actually doesn't perceive a mess/stinkiness as soon as I do. It is useless to nag, because it won't change the way his mind works. I just have to decide if it bothers me enough, and if I wish to spare him the trouble. I do feel strongly that loving a person is accepting them and seeing them for who they are and not being upset that they are not someone else.

As far as mindmates go, I am with my SO in many ways, but not all ways. His brother-in-law enjoys exploring completely technical and abstract ideas with him. In my communication there are certain emotional ideas that I enjoy exploring that he wearies of. I view mind-mates as filling in the cracks and fragments to complete ourselves. But I will always feel a deeper trust for someone who I have seen react to disappointment, annoyances, and the stinkiness of living.

AcidGoethe

3 Jul 2006, 08:44 PM

This is a great thread. I have really enjoyed reading people's posts in it.

I like the distinction SP-playmates, SJ-helpmates, NF-soulmates and NT-mindmates that Nighthawk was talking about.

My significant other is an ISFJ. I think this is really the best match for my type. I get closer to her by helping her around the house, organizing things for her, planning what we're going to do, going to family gatherings, etc. She gets closer to me by discussing ideas, analyzing things, debating, interesting herself in my domain of expertise, etc. She is very intelligent. She has excellent logical skills, she just prefers to use feelings. I think it's a good match, and an NT (even when Judging) definitely needs that down to earth and stability seeking approach of SJ's to get him out of his theoretical world.

You can say anything you want about SJ's but in terms of loyalty there's no match. If you want to have a long term relationship and contruct something that will last, they are the best. Once they say they love you, you have their word. They are the most trustworthy of all temperaments.

Nighthawk

3 Jul 2006, 09:09 PM

She gets closer to me by discussing ideas, analyzing things, debating, interesting herself in my domain of expertise, etc. She is very intelligent. She has excellent logical skills, she just prefers to use feelings.

Ah ... if only mine would do that. I provide (or try to provide) the helpmate side. I get no mindmate back however. It was cool when she was in grad school and I would help her study, but there is no mind candy now ... only talk about "entertaining" people, home decoration, and moving to a new house. Drives me insane with boredom.

You can say anything you want about SJ's but in terms of loyalty there's no match. If you want to have a long term relationship and contruct something that will last, they are the best. Once they say they love you, you have their word. They are the most trustworthy of all temperaments.

Very true. Intensely loyal. Mine will dig in her heels and fight for me with incredible ferocity.

JBHunt

4 Jul 2006, 01:43 AM

Ah ... if only mine would do that. I provide (or try to provide) the helpmate side. I get no mindmate back however. It was cool when she was in grad school and I would help her study, but there is no mind candy now ... only talk about "entertaining" people, home decoration, and moving to a new house. Drives me insane with boredom.

Very true. Intensely loyal. Mine will dig in her heels and fight for me with incredible ferocity.

I know we shouldn't generalize, but is being "intensely loyal" a trait of ISFJs or SJs in general? I don't know if SJs even want to entertain the idea of a mindmate or soulmate. I was with an ISTJ and I felt so disconnected. If you bring this up with them, they will just brush you off and say, "I dont get it." Maybe they truely just dont get it and we should leave it at that. Why force your wife or SO to give you "mind candy" when its not part of who they are.

Nighthawk

4 Jul 2006, 02:43 AM

I know we shouldn't generalize, but is being "intensely loyal" a trait of ISFJs or SJs in general? I don't know if SJs even want to entertain the idea of a mindmate or soulmate. I was with an ISTJ and I felt so disconnected. If you bring this up with them, they will just brush you off and say, "I dont get it." Maybe they truely just dont get it and we should leave it at that. Why force your wife or SO to give you "mind candy" when its not part of who they are.

I do believe loyalty is an SJ characteristic. I also believe that some of them really do not "get" the mindmate thing. My wife brushes it off frequently as though it were non-existent. I don't want to force her to be anything that she is not. What irritates me is her trying to force me to be something I am not.

JBHunt

4 Jul 2006, 03:13 AM

What irritates me is her trying to force me to be something I am not.

Maybe she is not forcing you. Nighthawk, that's just part of who she is. (My NF is defending her...;) )

There's no fault with anyone...om...om...om...

cafe

4 Jul 2006, 03:40 AM

Maybe she is not forcing you. Nighthawk, that's just part of who she is. (My NF is defending her...;) )

There's no fault with anyone...om...om...om...
So he doesn't get to be who he is, but she does? That may be the case simply because he is capable of it and she may not be, but it's not remotely fair. It would have to be frustrating. In addition to being unable to fill that role, she is unwilling or incapable of acknowledging or considering even the existence of something that is important to her spouse. Being invalidated sucks. There are few things that suck worse.

Nighthawk

4 Jul 2006, 05:01 AM

My wife brushes it off frequently as though it were non-existent. I don't want to force her to be anything that she is not. What irritates me is her trying to force me to be something I am not.

I'm going to retract this statement for the time being. Perhaps I'm being unfair to her in wanting her to change ... especially if she really doesn't have any mindmate in her. I know it is unfair that I should try to give what she wants and not receive what I want in return ... but maybe she is making the best effort she knows, and I am being equally unfair expecting more. That was good enough for me when I married her. It should be good enough for me now?

Shimpei

4 Jul 2006, 05:39 AM

I know we shouldn't generalize, but is being "intensely loyal" a trait of ISFJs or SJs in general?

There's definitely one thing I'm quite sure about myself, and this is extreme loyality.

I'm going to retract this statement for the time being. Perhaps I'm being unfair to her in wanting her to change ... especially if she really doesn't have any mindmate in her. I know it is unfair that I should try to give what she wants and not receive what I want in return ... but maybe she is making the best effort she knows, and I am being equally unfair expecting more. That was good enough for me when I married her. It should be good enough for me now?

No one can expect from their SO to be EVERYTHING for them.

Park

4 Jul 2006, 02:54 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JBHunt
I know we shouldn't generalize, but is being "intensely loyal" a trait of ISFJs or SJs in general?

There's definitely one thing I'm quite sure about myself, and this is extreme loyality.

I've got a confession. I understand the word loyalty but the way you discuss the word makes me think that perhaps the word contains a deeper truth which I don't fully understand.

I know how cold this may sound, however, my deepest loyalty belongs to my own sence of logic. I *don't* allways follow it but I try and without it I feel lost. I am there for the people I love because I think it is a logic behaviour. However, the concept of *extreme* loyality scares me - perhaps because extreme behaviour forms often collides with logic and easily becomes blind loyalty. In a work situation, I will argue against a good collegue if I find the ideas and thoughts of another collegue (even one I don't like) to be more logical. Again, I don't allways follow my sence of logic but in a relationship I will try to make things work as long as I think things make sence. It doesn't allways work that way because my feelings often gets in the way. However, that is my starting point. Is this perception of loyalty in tune with yours or am I missing something?

rivercrow

4 Jul 2006, 03:18 PM

I've got a confession. I understand the word loyalty but the way you discuss the word makes me think that perhaps the word contains a deeper truth which I don't fully understand.

I know how cold this may sound, however, my deepest loyalty belongs to my own sence of logic. I *don't* allways follow it but I try and without it I feel lost. I am there for the people I love because I think it is a logic behaviour. However, the concept of *extreme* loyality scares me - perhaps because extreme behaviour forms often collides with logic and easily becomes blind loyalty. In a work situation, I will argue against a good collegue if I find the ideas and thoughts of another collegue (even one I don't like) to be more logical. Again, I don't allways follow my sence of logic but in a relationship I will try to make things work as long as I think things make sence. It doesn't allways work that way because my feelings often gets in the way. However, that is my starting point. Is this perception of loyalty in tune with yours or am I missing something?
I think the loyalty they're talking about is a F-based gut thing. What you're describing is more the classic T-based logical ROI (return on investment) calculation.

Everyone has to evaluate relationships. If you cannot maintain healthy boundaries, you will have problems. I suspect people with stronger F preferences may have more difficulties looking objectively at abusive relationships where boundaries are broken.

On the other hand, with a strong T preference (or a withdrawing Enneagram type), it's difficult to be vulnerable enough to have a meaningful relationship.

IMHO.

amazingkae

1 Jan 2007, 08:56 PM

Is it that addictive? I haven't experienced this connection with anyone and now I am totally curious. Is it strong enough for you to walk away from your marriage if your mindmate insisted?

NO.

Commitment means more than anything, and if the connection between you and a mind mate is noble, then leaving a spouse is NEVER a request or an option.

Platonic love is superior and transcends any need for physical expression that compromises the bounds of "stable home" integrity.

MacGuffin

1 Jan 2007, 09:04 PM

AMDG

1 Jan 2007, 09:20 PM

First one: a Danish guy, deeply religious pagan, ENTP probably, just an all-round brilliant Renaissance guy. Taught me to read and speak Anglo-Saxon and Old Norse; we were like twins for a couple of years, then he died from an injury he got while practicing in his usual devil-may-care manner with the massive fucking broadswords him and his brother used to mess about with. I told him so, I did. We had just the same sense of humour - I know that if it'd been my job to do his tombstone, and I put 'Told you so' on it, he'd have been laughing up in the hereafter.

Second one: a guy who defied concepts of nationality, INFJ. One parent from the UAE, one from Syria, grew up in a Spanish Catholic school in Morocco! Devout Muslim, though his homosexuality and intellectual honesty and personal integrity saw him excluded from Islamic communities. He was one of the only truly rational Muslims I ever met - approaching the religion critically, still perfectly able to maintain his beliefs in God and the meaning of life and stuff without needing all the texts and stuff to support it. Like Averroes was here again, man. He taught me Arabic and we hung out as fellow Muslim outcasts and people said it was 'obvious' that we were in love. Once or twice we kissed, but nothing more. Last I knew, he went to Palastine with the Red Crescent - nobody's heard from him since he went about 18 months ago. He might be dead. I don't know.

There are others, but they all died before I was born. I'm completely in love with Saint Francis of Assisi, Origen, William the Conqueror and Peter Abelard, and whether or not they'd have returned those feelings I don't know or care. It's an innocent, non-sexual love (as it always is with me) - I don't want or require people to 'return' my feelings in the same way I feel them; just that they let me be around them sometimes and let me do stuff for them. I'm not very demanding.

I haven't found it a headfuck at all. There are too few good things in life to not a) recognise one when you see it and b) accept and enjoy it for what it is. I'm cautious about giving of myself if I'm not sure, but in the two cases above, I was sure from the get-go, and just leapt right in and never regretted it.

The feeling of vulnerability and humility are to me just two ingredients in the joy that knowing these people brings me. I don't even have to see them. Just knowing they're in the world (or were) and that they exist, is no small thing for me in getting through this life.

Park

1 Jan 2007, 10:18 PM

What is noble though?

My gues (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/noble) option number 4.

nottaprettygal

1 Jan 2007, 10:33 PM

My gues (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/noble) option number 4.

I'm thinking it's probably definition #5.

Either way, although amazingkae's response seems noble (?), I'm not sure why leaving one's spouse wouldn't at least be an option if this whole mindmate connection is as strong as people make it seem. Staying in a marriage that doesn't mentally fulfill you is a better option?

People seem to place the idea of commitment to another person on this pedestal that cannot and should not be challenged. It's annoying to me. What about a person's commitment to his/her own happiness and well-being?

Meh.

DazedandConfuzed

1 Jan 2007, 10:40 PM

i have met many mindmates also i have called them kindred spirits. I think it is an inherently intp thing, we tend to focus on fewer relationships and find that spark. I have recently met an INFJ who knows me better than i know myself, kinda scary.

Kristiana

1 Jan 2007, 11:00 PM

I did not feel any emotional infidelity either. However, there was an awkwardness in knowing that I could connect with someone else on topics that were important to me and yet not be able to share them with my wife on the same level. It is not like a personal hobby. For example, I have had an interest in the open source world for years. Now that is a topic area where I do not give a damn that my wife shares no interest. It is my personal hobby area.

On the other hand, I shared Keirsey's book with my other mind-mate friend and we had great fun discussing relationships we observed among family and friends. Much like the way these forum topics share personal details, we disclosed personal details about interactions with our mates that led to both of us learning more about ourselves and our relationships. I do not feel that those conversations betrayed any confidence with my spouse. However, I am not sure that she would feel the same way.

How many of you have significant others who would understand your relationship with a mind-mate? How many of you would understand if the roles were reversed? I would like to think that I would.....I would like to think that I have when I thought it occurred in the past.

My husband (INTJ like myself) and I have that type of connection. We are definitely mind-mates as well as soul-mates, and that was apparent to both of us from the first day we met.

I have had, and still do have, a few other mind-mates, and my husband knows this. It doesn't bother him, and I can talk about them to him if I want. My husband has only had me as a mind-mate or soul-mate, and I am glad about that because I enjoy having something unique of his. I am naturally a more jealous person than he (and jealousy can be a good thing, if you want something that should be yours... married couples SHOULD be jealous for each other's sexual love, for example). He understands this too.

Two of my mind-mates have been female like myself. One was INTJ (met in grade school, would've become even closer friends if we were more versed in friendships/social things). The other was INTx/INTP (met my first year of university, and she was a senior then).

The rest have been male, INTJs the whole lot of them. One I met when I was nineteen, and he and I are still very good friends. He and my husband get along well too, which is good :) Another I grew up with, we were both quite shy around each other for the longest time, then his family moved away, but in recent years we have gotten back in touch and connected extremely well (it is hard to say whether he feels the connection to the same degree, although it is very apparent from our conversations that we hit it off well). I imagine he is a lot what I would have been like, had I grown up with more psychological protective factors. It is really, really weird, as sometimes I know when he is going to answer my e-mail or when I will 'coincidentally' run into him... premonitions I guess you could call them, and they happen for no logical reason. Another is a few years younger than I, and we met on a Christian message board.

As for the males, I was interested in the first two at various points. The first one was interested in me at one point; we went on one date but ended up deciding we'd be better off as friends. The second one may have been interested in me once, but I don't know and nothing ever happened. Doesn't bother my husband; doesn't bother me. :)

It seems that for my age (22) I have had quite a few. Perhaps that is God's way of making it up to me, for consistently not fitting in with groups (including my rather dysfunctional family of origin) and never having had a real community.

Park

1 Jan 2007, 11:05 PM

I'm thinking it's probably definition #5.

Either way, although amazingkae's response seems noble (?), I'm not sure why leaving one's spouse wouldn't at least be an option if this whole mindmate connection is as strong as people make it seem. Staying in a marriage that doesn't mentally fulfill you is a better option?

Yeah an *absolute* noble response.
I don't think the perfect marriage exists so many people weights the good things up against the bad and if the good takes up enough space, they might choose to stay in a marriage which isn't mentally fullfilling.

People seem to place the idea of commitment to another person on this pedastool that cannot and should not be challenged. It's annoying to me. What about a person's commitment to his/her own happiness and well-being?

Meh.

I think it has to do with loyality, a word I'm still struggling with (http://forums.intpcentral.com/showpost.php?p=345416&postcount=192) (for the reasons I stated in that post, I still don't place any value in it to be honest).

ajblaise

1 Jan 2007, 11:07 PM

Staying in a marriage that doesn't mentally fulfill you is a better option?

She seems to be promoting good ol' southern Christian values.

I wouldn't have any problems with southerns preaching against divorce if it wasn't the Bible Belt with the highest divorce rate in America.

Nighthawk

1 Jan 2007, 11:15 PM

Either way, although amazingkae's response seems noble (?), I'm not sure why leaving one's spouse wouldn't at least be an option if this whole mindmate connection is as strong as people make it seem. Staying in a marriage that doesn't mentally fulfill you is a better option?

People seem to place the idea of commitment to another person on this pedestal that cannot and should not be challenged. It's annoying to me. What about a person's commitment to his/her own happiness and well-being?

Having been through 3 marriages, I concur. Blind commitment has been a recipe for failure for me ... staying with something that never should have been ... far longer than I should have. I'll definitely admit to having been naive and stupid in choosing my first two partners ... but that doesn't mean I had to remain naive and stupid by staying with them. Nothing is certain, and nothing lasts forever. Those are some of the very few absolutes I abide by.

As a very good mindmate friend made clear to me, trying your very best in a a relationship is often better than committment ... although one could argue both are one and the same.

seriouskid

1 Jan 2007, 11:23 PM

NO.
Commitment means more than anything, and if the connection between you and a mind mate is noble, then leaving a spouse is NEVER a request or an option.

Platonic love is superior and transcends any need for physical expression that compromises the bounds of "stable home" integrity.

i agree with this -

i have 2 mind-mate friends and while we have (momentarily) been physical in the past ... the platonic level of mental & emotional respect and love...is where we feel most comfortable -

and respect to each other's personal freedom is a must (& mutual)

they are interested in dating other women and talk to me more like i am "one of the boys"

there is also not the "in-love" feeling...

however, they are more like family to me and i know this will be forever.

and we DO talk about how to deal with our deep connections when each person (if ever) finds a soul-mate

the main thing, though, is honoring each person's individual life path and sense of freedom...

even to the point that i would step aside as a friend..

if my friends told me that their new love interest was jealous of our mind-mate connections --

yes, i would miss my friends deeply (as they are like family) but would step aside if requested out of respect for the new SO as well as out of respect to my friends

my mind-mates are intj

MacGuffin

1 Jan 2007, 11:27 PM

Nighthawk

1 Jan 2007, 11:32 PM

I know the whole mindmates thing is what NTs look for in a romantic partner, is it possible to have a mindmate with no sexual/romantic tension/feelings?

Is it possible for an NT to have a partner that isn't a mindmate, and if we do have a non-mindmate romantic partner, will we always be looking for a mindmate then?

I've had both. If the mindmate was female, I have usually developed romantic/sexual attachment ... however, both of us could rationalize what was going on and stopped it if needed. I have some male friends that I could categorize as being close to mindmates, but there is not the intimacy that I shared with a female mindmate.

My SO is not an N, so I do get my N-fix from other people. It is a fine line to walk sometimes, but I need it the way some people need socializing or a job with a fancy sounding title.

seriouskid

1 Jan 2007, 11:32 PM

I know the whole mindmates thing is what NTs look for in a romantic partner, is it possible to have a mindmate with no sexual/romantic tension/feelings?

yes, absolutely!

i have this with my friends

at least for me, it is possible to have a transcending mind-mate relationship as family and sacred friendship--

and still possible for people to get their groove on with some other personality type ;-)

it helps if you honor privacy & communication as well

MacGuffin

1 Jan 2007, 11:34 PM

I've had both. If the mindmate was female, I have usually developed romantic/sexual attachment ... however, both of us could rationalize what was going on and stopped it if needed. I have some male friends that I could categorize as being close to mindmates, but there is not the intimacy that I shared with a female mindmate.

My SO is not an N, so I do get my N-fix from other people. It is a fine line to walk sometimes, but I need it the way some people need socializing or a job with a fancy sounding title.
So we are doomed, eh?

It is easier for intimacy with someone of the opposite sex (esp. for men). I wonder if that is because of societal beliefs we have internalized, or whether the possibility for romance makes it easier.

Nighthawk

1 Jan 2007, 11:37 PM

So we are doomed, eh?

It is easier for intimacy with someone of the opposite sex (esp. for men). I wonder if that is because of societal beliefs we have internalized, or whether the possibility for romance makes it easier.

I'm not sure why, but that seems the case for me. I can find a more intimate meeting of the minds with a woman than I can with a man. Not sure if it is genetic, hormonal, cultural, or what. The exception, of course, being a guys night out type thing where we can all be tasteless pigs and gawk at women.

MacGuffin

1 Jan 2007, 11:40 PM

The exception, of course, being a guys night out type thing where we can all be tasteless pigs and gawk at women.
Alcohol: creating male bonding experiences since the Neolithic Age!

attila_the_hunny

1 Jan 2007, 11:45 PM

I'm not sure why, but that seems the case for me. I can find a more intimate meeting of the minds with a woman than I can with a man. Not sure if it is genetic, hormonal, cultural, or what. The exception, of course, being a guys night out type thing where we can all be tasteless pigs and gawk at women.

Sometimes I read things like this...and I wonder if I was supposed to be a man.

Park

1 Jan 2007, 11:47 PM

I know the whole mindmates thing is what NTs look for in a romantic partner, is it possible to have a mindmate with no sexual/romantic tension/feelings?

There are different levels people can connect on but when it comes to the really intimate satisfying mindmate connection, I don't think so. There is a spark of some sort and it is that spark which makes it possible to reach that level of intimachy in the first place.

Is it possible for an NT to have a partner that isn't a mindmate, and if we do have a non-mindmate romantic partner, will we always be looking for a mindmate then?

I know that If I don't have that kind of connection, I will consciously/subconsciously look for it and if what I have isn't enough I'll look for more.

...the mind slut has spoken.

MacGuffin

1 Jan 2007, 11:50 PM

There are different levels people can connect on but when it comes to the really intimate satisfying mindmate connection, I don't think so. There is a spark of some sort and it is that spark which makes it possible to reach that level of intimachy in the first place.
That would suck though. How do you ensure you don't betray a spouse/partner then? The level of connection can be intense, and combined with attraction...

...the mind slut has spoken.
Quit looking at my sigs on other forums! :ph34r:

George_McFly

1 Jan 2007, 11:50 PM

I turned 40 this year, but I have never married. Is it unrealistic to want my mindmate and romantic partner to be the same person?

attila_the_hunny

1 Jan 2007, 11:53 PM

I turned 40 this year, but I have never married. Is it unrealistic to want my mindmate and romantic partner to be the same person?

No. It's better to be alone than to just simply settle for what you can get.

eyebyte_atWork

1 Jan 2007, 11:55 PM

Sometimes I read things like this...and I wonder if I was supposed to be a man.

Me too.

attila_the_hunny

2 Jan 2007, 12:00 AM

Me too.

But I think I have much more fun as a woman than I'd ever have as a man. I'd get my ass kicked all the time as a man for all the shit I talk. Oh, the power of titties.

Park

2 Jan 2007, 12:13 AM

That would suck though. How do you ensure you don't betray a spouse/partner then? The level of connection can be intense, and combined with attraction...

I dunno, some people would perceive that kind of connection to be betrayal in the first place - others wouldn't think much of it. When I started the thread I feelt really bad about things because I couldn't figure out if *I* perceived it as betray, I still can't but I don't torment myself with it anymore. I am what I am and you can get used to doing questionable things just like much else.

Quit looking at my sigs on other forums! :ph34r:

Ok, I'll change that to "The amoral has spoken".

MacGuffin

2 Jan 2007, 12:15 AM

I dunno, some people would perceive that kind of connection to be betrayal in the first place - others wouldn't think much of it. When I started the thread I feelt really bad about things because I couldn't figure out if *I* perceived it as betray, I still can't but I don't torment myself with it anymore. I am what I am and you can get used to doing questionable things just like much else.
Well if we do seek it out, then the other option is to deny yourself those type of connections and live life in something close to hell.

ajblaise

2 Jan 2007, 12:17 AM

I know the whole mindmates thing is what NTs look for in a romantic partner, is it possible to have a mindmate with no sexual/romantic tension/feelings?

I've had intense "mindmate" experiences with both males and females (attractive females too), with no sexual/romantic feelings taking place at all.

Of course, this only occurs while everyone's on acid, when primal instincts like sex, eating, and sleeping is the last thing on my mind.

Without drugs, I'm skeptical about one's ability to deny physical attraction.

MacGuffin

2 Jan 2007, 12:20 AM

I've had intense "mindmate" experiences with both males and females (attractive females too), with no sexual/romantic feelings taking place at all.

Of course, this only occurs while everyone's on acid, when primal instincts like sex, eating, and sleeping is the last thing on my mind.

Without drugs, I'm skeptical about one's ability to deny physical attraction.
That doesn't sound like mindmates at all.

Park

2 Jan 2007, 12:27 AM

Well if we do seek it out, then the other option is to deny yourself those type of connections and live life in something close to hell.

No way and I don't want to feel bad about it either. I didn't make the rules about good and bad, appropriate and inappropriate in the first place.

That doesn't sound like mindmates at all.

ROLF, the other person you bring to tears tonight.

MacGuffin

2 Jan 2007, 12:28 AM

ROLF, the other person you bring to tears tonight.
What did I do now? :mellow:

Ivy

2 Jan 2007, 12:30 AM

ROLF, the other person you bring to tears tonight.What did I do now? :mellow:

No no, she's giving you a Rolfing treatment. You know, the crying massage? Simultaneously sensual and mind-matey, I hear.

FranG

2 Jan 2007, 12:31 AM

The closest thing I have to a mindmate is my cousin. He is a male and tests as a INTP but I think he can lean either way on the T/F and the P/J (INTJ may be the most accurate). I click with him and that's about it.

Park

2 Jan 2007, 12:31 AM

What did I do now? :mellow:

Just your disorientation.

Park

2 Jan 2007, 12:33 AM

No no, she's giving you a Rolfing treatment. You know, the crying massage? Simultaneously sensual and mind-matey, I hear.

Ok Ivy, indulge me - what ever you'r talking about, I want a taste!!!

C.J.Woolf

2 Jan 2007, 12:35 AM

Either way, although amazingkae's response seems noble (?), I'm not sure why leaving one's spouse wouldn't at least be an option if this whole mindmate connection is as strong as people make it seem. Staying in a marriage that doesn't mentally fulfill you is a better option?
I'll speak for myself. I've never found my marriage mentally unfulfilling. There are people that excite my mind in ways that my spouse had not -- no one is everything -- but they're in no way worth leaving my marriage for.

People seem to place the idea of commitment to another person on this pedestal that cannot and should not be challenged. It's annoying to me. What about a person's commitment to his/her own happiness and well-being?

Meh.
I think the real value of commitment is this: it deters you from breaking it rashly, to the detriment of your own happiness as well as others'. The deeper the commitment, the better the reason(s) you need to end it. But if the reasons are there and you are certain, you should follow through and end it.

Which is to say I agree with you. Many people see commitment as an end, but I see it as a means to the end of maximizing happiness. (Christ, I'm sounding like Imperator now. Oh well.)

Oh, the power of titties.
Tagline-worthy!

Toonia

2 Jan 2007, 12:37 AM

I feel as though most anyone i call a friend is a mindmate of sorts - and tends to involve NT's slightly more often than NF's. Even if the connection is not long-term, i like the quality of it to run deep enough to have uniqueness and worth. I find clique' interaction useless, so don't spend time interacting with someone unless the connection is deep and based on seeing each other uniquely and emotionally bare.

ajblaise

2 Jan 2007, 12:39 AM

That doesn't sound like mindmates at all.

It's termed "shared consciousness" and it might possibly be even more intense then what two mindmates share, but it's the same idea.

This gives a nice brief description of it:

Tripping is an intensely personal experience yet it holds the potential for more than one person to share the same reality or altered space.

"As they walked and talked, they slipped into a commonly experienced acid phenomenon: shared consciousness...its the only time I've ever been psychic... she would say word for word what Id been thinking.... and then I would say something and it would be exactly what she was thinking. And we just did that for about four or five hours. We were in a reality together, and we shared the same space."

Ivy

2 Jan 2007, 12:42 AM

Ok Ivy, indulge me - what ever you'r talking about, I want a taste!!!

http://www.getrolfing.com/FAQ.htm#effects

MacGuffin

2 Jan 2007, 12:43 AM

It's termed "shared consciousness" and it might possibly be even more intense then what two mindmates share, but it's the same idea.

This gives a nice brief description of it:

Tripping is an intensely personal experience yet it holds the potential for more than one person to share the same reality or altered space.

"As they walked and talked, they slipped into a commonly experienced acid phenomenon: shared consciousness...its the only time I've ever been psychic... she would say word for word what Id been thinking.... and then I would say something and it would be exactly what she was thinking. And we just did that for about four or five hours. We were in a reality together, and we shared the same space."
Yeah I was right.

AMDG

2 Jan 2007, 12:47 AM

I know the whole mindmates thing is what NTs look for in a romantic partner, is it possible to have a mindmate with no sexual/romantic tension/feelings?

Is it possible for an NT to have a partner that isn't a mindmate, and if we do have a non-mindmate romantic partner, will we always be looking for a mindmate then?

I thought my first post in this thread answered the first part - yes, it is possible.

As for the second - my answers in other threads have said that 'mindmate' wasn't my requirement for a partner (supposing I wanted one), though if they were, it'd be a bonus and if they weren't, I'd still have that best friend I spent most of my time with.

ajblaise

2 Jan 2007, 12:58 AM

Yeah I was right.

If the mindmate experience doesn't involve having, to some degree, a sharing of consciousness, how else would you explain it?

MacGuffin

2 Jan 2007, 01:00 AM

If the mindmate experience doesn't involve having, to some degree, a sharing of consciousness, how else would you explain it?
There is a difference between having a connection with someone and tricking your brain for a few hours with chemicals.

What mindmate(s) have you had? Cause to me, they are nothing like altered experiences. Like comparing watching porn to having sex.

nottaprettygal

2 Jan 2007, 01:01 AM

I'll speak for myself. I've never found my marriage mentally unfulfilling. There are people that excite my mind in ways that my spouse had not -- no one is everything -- but they're in no way worth leaving my marriage for.

I think that's acceptable. New people are always going to offer new ideas and new ways of looking at things. A spouse shouldn't be one's only source of mental stimulation. However, if one doesn't share a mental connection at all with a spouse then I'm not sure why s/he would want to stay in the marriage.

And why can't people see potential pitfalls and what is lacking in their spouse before they decide to get married? Bah. Maybe I'll understand this better after a few failed marriages.

I think the real value of commitment is this: it deters you from breaking it rashly, to the detriment of your own happiness as well as others'.

Good point. I think that the concept of commitment should deter people from breaking it too rashly, but I don't think that it's a good enough reason on its own to not break a commitment. Honoring a commitment at the expense of your own happiness is silly.

Nighthawk

2 Jan 2007, 01:03 AM

And why can't people see potential pitfalls and what is lacking in their spouse before they decide to get married? Bah. Maybe I'll understand this better after a few failed marriages.

Youth, inexperience, naivete, not knowing what I wanted, implusiveness ... those are some of the reasons I entered into failed marriages.

Edit: Oh yeah, and getting somebody pregnant ... how could I forget that one.

MacGuffin

2 Jan 2007, 01:04 AM

And why can't people see potential pitfalls and what is lacking in their spouse before they decide to get married? Bah. Maybe I'll understand this better after a few failed marriages.
You need to try out a starter marriage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starter_marriage). Better hurry though, you are creeping into old maid territory...

s0978

2 Jan 2007, 01:18 AM

I've meet two in my life. One when I was about 19 and another quite recently. Now, all I can say is that this kind of connection throughoutly fucks up your mind. I've lived most of my life inside my own mind - partly because I enjoyed being alone up there and partly because I only meet two people who were able to really enter. When you meet people who are capable of entering that (for me) most intimate part of your mind - weird things happen. First of all, you get company up there - a very strange experience. I gues that was what Adam feelt when he meet Eve - wow, I'm not alone in this garden anymore how cool is that? It really is so encredible sweet to be able to go for a walk in that intimate garden with another person. However, the back side is that you easily start to feel lonely in your garden when that person isn't around. The mind candy is more addictive than any drug (hmmm, strong statement for a person who never tried drugs) and this kind of bonding is seemingly allmost impossible to cut. I'm not even sure if this kind of connection is particulary healthy. In the company of a mindmate you are somehow allways butt naked. The many facade layers we usually protect ourself with are allmost non-existant and you become vunerable as hell. Furthermore, my experience is that those kind of bonds lasts forever, eventhough you don't talk for years you can pick up that phone and when you hear the voice in the other end it is like you only spoke to that person 1 sec ago. A person on this board told me that the mindmate phenomenon was very much realted to the NT.

I would very much like to hear your experiences with this? To be honest, I don't find these mindmate connections particulary easy to live with. I'm married and to some extend I feel that having this kind of bond with another person resembles emotionally infidelity. I would rather want my husbond to go out and be physicall unfaithfull to me than have this kind of bond with another person (male or female (ehh he is not gay)). It is somehow to intimate to be regarded as purely friendship.

I think of the mindmates thing more loosely with different kinds of emotional dimensions. I have one male friend from grad school who I have stayed up many many nights chattering away with, weren't in touch for several years but we can and do pick up occasionally now and out of the blue- clearly there is a very special mental chemistry we both value highly, on the other hand the friendship is in some ways sort of cold, even in straight up platonic terms. No one was interested in anything more from the other, perhaps because all this indirectly made goo goo easier to find elsewhere. I'd agree this sort of connect is quite rare and valuable though.

That garden stuff where it seems like the other is always there with you, I see that as more garden variety* love.

*yuk yuk

PS- I hafta say that if we ever do that INTPs-post-only sub, this topic would have been a great candidate.

ajblaise

2 Jan 2007, 01:23 AM

There is a difference between having a connection with someone and tricking your brain for a few hours with chemicals.

What mindmate(s) have you had? Cause to me, they are nothing like altered experiences. Like comparing watching porn to having sex.

We are chemical beings. Fighting, taking LSD, running, talking...all of these things alter our chemical makeup. None of these activities are "less real" than the other.

Do you think all people reporting extreme feelings of closeness and having profound connections with others while on certain drugs (in many cases, the connections lasting forever) are somehow "wrong" in their claims? If so, how? First hand experience?

MacGuffin

2 Jan 2007, 01:24 AM

Do you think all people reporting extreme feelings of closeness and having profound connections with others while on certain drugs (in many cases, the connections lasting forever) are somehow "wrong" in their claims? If so, how - first hand experience?
Yes and yes. You didn't answer my question about what mindmates you have had (sober, long term ones).

(edited quote to collapse questions)

Ivy

2 Jan 2007, 01:26 AM

We are chemical beings. Fighting, taking LSD, running, talking...all of these things alter our chemical makeup. None of these activities are "less real" than the other.

Do you think all people reporting extreme feelings of closeness and having profound connections with others while on certain drugs (in many cases, the connections lasting forever) are somehow "wrong" in their claims? If so, how? First hand experience?

I've had mindmates, and I've had tripmates. Not the same thing, to me, at all. I think MacGuffin's porn/sex comparison was very apt.

C.J.Woolf

2 Jan 2007, 01:30 AM

However, if one doesn't share a mental connection at all with a spouse then I'm not sure why s/he would want to stay in the marriage.
I wouldn't make such a marriage in the first place. (Answering your other question.)

s0978

2 Jan 2007, 01:31 AM

I think that's acceptable. New people are always going to offer new ideas and new ways of looking at things. A spouse shouldn't be one's only source of mental stimulation. However, if one doesn't share a mental connection at all with a spouse then I'm not sure why s/he would want to stay in the marriage.

And why can't people see potential pitfalls and what is lacking in their spouse before they decide to get married? Bah. Maybe I'll understand this better after a few failed marriages.

Good point. I think that the concept of commitment should deter people from breaking it too rashly, but I don't think that it's a good enough reason on its own to not break a commitment. Honoring a commitment at the expense of your own happiness is silly.

I thought Mr. Woolf posted some insightful comments earlier which speak rather well to this. (Hacked at for context and clarity.)

1. We tend to get the partner we [believe we] deserve.

2. you expect your partner to complete you