Have artists been devalued?

[Ghost-Girl]

I recently saw a commercial for one of those art-institute graphic design colleges in which one of their main points was:

"Not an artist? It doesn't matter anymore!"

That pissed me off, but it also made me question things. Was that statement by the college just a ploy to get the most enrollment possible, or an actual statement of fact?

[kuranes]

Just a ploy to get the most enrollment possible, as those people who were convinced by it will discover after enrolling. Exception - people with a lot of talent who think they have to be doing versions of past artistic triumphs to be considered artistic. Sometimes these people need to be coaxed into finding their own style.

Of course, "Design" has one foot in the world of art, and you don't have to know much about the history of fine art to do that. It's a much more practical degree to get, too. ( What I, myself, should have taken. )

[Justin05]

A bachelor's degree at the Art Institute is about 70,000 dollars. Even with loans that is a ridiculous amount of money. When I visited that school without a portfolio I was going to be accepted. There is something very wrong w/ that school to accept someone without a portfolio. They will train/teach/con/manipulate anybody.

[RottenApple]

Agree with Kuranes

I studied fine art and graphic design. It became very clear early on in my first year that some people just 'had it' and others had to try and fake it by learning to master the process. The fakers could never catch up.

On the bigger question 'have artists been devalued?'
tricky one...does creativity hold much value in the first place?
I used to be sure of the answer...I just don't know anymore ?

[kuranes]

On the bigger question 'have artists been devalued?'
tricky one...does creativity hold much value in the first place?


I knew a couple people with the title "Creative Director" at Advertising agencies, who assured me that they were discouraged from actually being creative. The small exception was that they were encouraged to be creative about coming up with slight variations on a theme, regarding what had already been done a million times. The technology production tools get more interesting every year, however. So at least there's that.

I think artists are valued much more in other countries besides the USA, with some exceptions to the rule.

I see these summer art-fairs, which are often held in ritzy communities. There's some nice stuff that turns up in the juried affairs. Who's buying it, if anyone ? Its oftentimes NOT the gentry that live in these fancy suburbs, for whom the average price would represent a very small portion of their income. Instead it is people who ( hopefully ) can barely squeeze it into their budget. What are the country squires doing ? Enjoying the corn on the cob vendors and walking along glancing at it all as though it were so much tinsel for an unnamed summer holiday.

Of course, there are the naysayers, who will assert "How do you think these gentry GOT to be rich, Kuranes ? By disciplining themselves away from impulse buys." I know that what I'm indirectly saying is a deepening loss to this country can't always be quantified, but its still there. Culture can't always be so clearly delineated. Ironically, the people who value artists the most are often the people living under the heel of a dictatorship, where the artists actually risk their lives to say something even indirectly critical of the regime, through symbolism. And the people who appreciate it, and understand.

[Ghost-Girl]

does creativity hold much value in the first place?


Yes, but not enough to make anybody rich. :p

[RottenApple]

Yes, but not enough to make anybody rich. :p

Some quote which I half remember...went something like this.

Diligence and hard work are what we need to live
Creativity makes life worth living.

[RottenApple]

Ironically, the people who value artists the most are often the people living under the heel of a dictatorship, where the artists actually risk their lives to say something even indirectly critical of the regime, through symbolism. And the people who appreciate it, and understand.

That's very true. When life is easy, art is about asthetics, it's about buying paintings that go well with your couch.

[kuranes]

, it's about buying paintings that go well with your couch.

That's one sort of aesthetic, I guess. "Could I have that in mint green please?". So true. I wonder how someone like Dali would fare if he were just emerging in today's USA climate, as a student graduating ? How many housewives would want this kind of thing ? "You take your melting clocks and all that other crap down to your basement den if you want to, Rusty, but it's not going in here with the family room, &*^%$#@ ! You spent WHAT? "

[eyebyte_atWork]

Yes, but not enough to make anybody rich. :p

In the arts you have to wait until you are dead to make the $ moo-lah $

[Toonia]

"Not an artist? It doesn't matter anymore!"anymore?!* What the heck does that mean? It is simply a ploy to get money. They are trying to give the impression that they have found the magic wand, the trick to turn anyone into a great artist, which I suspect very strongly they have not. (Although they may use projectors and other short cuts so students can appear to have technical skill when they do not.)

That being said, there is a false assumption that "either you have it or you don't". This mentality causes the arts to suffer greatly. The truth is you can take any person who has a desire to learn, give them opportunity to study with a teacher who understands how to foster creativity, and you can take them from point A to point B. We all have the capacity to express ourselves in a creative way, and any student desiring to develop creative skill should be approached with respect and with the expectation that they have the capacity to learn and move forward. Most people can develop more creative skill than they realize, but it takes time and effort. A good mentor learns to have great faith in their students. However, we are not all capable of achieving the same level of mastery, even if given the same opportunity. There is a balanced perspective which provides realistic expectations and hopes.

[RottenApple]

That's one sort of aesthetic, I guess. "Could I have that in mint green please?". So true. I wonder how someone like Dali would fare if he were just emerging in today's USA climate, as a student graduating ? How many housewives would want this kind of thing ? "You take your melting clocks and all that other crap down to your basement den if you want to, Rusty, but it's not going in here with the family room, &*^%$#@ ! You spent WHAT? "

Haha ... there'es a very funny scene about exactly that in a movie called Basquiat ( about the fine artist of the same name)
Very good movie and relevent to this thread too.


We love our painting.

Which painting?

The green one.

Oh yeah?

We got a couch to match.


I often wonder if genre defining artists like Kubrick would even get a job in today's market. I cannot see any of those script making it out of the boardroom.

[Ghost-Girl]

Haha ... there'es a very funny scene about exactly that in a movie called Basquiat ( about the fine artist of the same name)
Very good movie and relevent to this thread too.


We love our painting.

Which painting?

The green one.

Oh yeah?

We got a couch to match.


sound like an interesting movie. At least they got the couch to match the painting and not the other way around?

[raincrow007]

Grrrr. I want to say something on this subject, but it pulls too hard on the poles of my personal paradoxes for it to come out as anything other than some half-baked and garbled blathering. :banghead:

Meaning and value are arbitrary constructs anyway -- our security blanket against the void. Did artists ever really have any value? Not particularly. Much like anything else. Therefore, how can they be devalued?

At my most optimistic as a painter, I feel that perhaps my threadbare security blankets will offer a bit of comfort to some alienated soul of the future -- that some hypothetical person will identify with my subjective experience, and by that identification lessen their alienation. But that too, is lie of sorts.



We are all the same, insofar as we are all alone.

[Ghost-Girl]

Did artists ever really have any value? Not particularly. Much like anything else. Therefore, how can they be devalued?


Then what to you does have value?

[libertarianjim]

Yes, but not enough to make anybody rich. :p


In the arts you have to wait until you are dead to make the $ moo-lah $

Depends on whether you're connected or depraved enough to get an NEA grant.

[CoHo]

I don't think the art, well graphic design industry has changed all that much in the last hundred years... you have always had people wanting to do it on the cheap both yesterday (http://www.oldstuffonly.com/images/images_26701/coke50centsoff.jpg) and today (http://www.galaxyautocenters.com/super_savers/january_2006_large.jpg)

On the other hand, you've also had people willing to pay for a bit (http://www.absinth.com/images/poster_cat_300.jpg) more (http://members.aol.com/emerick/images/poster.jpg)


*kills thread*

[raincrow007]

Then what to you does have value?

*blinks*

Why, as a mystical sort of nihilist -- nothing inherently does, of course. But there's always the option of making up some values/meanings. Sometimes I do. Sometimes I don't.

However, if I choose to create a value or meaning, I never doubt the highly subjective and irrational nature of such a construction.

[RottenApple]

Nihilism has a way of being a real thread killer. Have you ever spent much time at a nihilist forum....nobody posts...not much point.

[CoHo]

Have you ever spent much time at a nihilist forum....nobody posts...not much point.

:lol:

[raincrow007]

Nihilism has a way of being a real thread killer. Have you ever spent much time at a nihilist forum....nobody posts...not much point.

Hey, s/he asked. *shrug*

[kuranes]

t.

However, if I choose to create a value or meaning, I never doubt the highly subjective and irrational nature of such a construction.

Fuckin' "A" !

[RottenApple]

Hey, s/he asked. *shrug*

don't get me wrong ...I'm actually on the exact same page as you. First build an artificial construct then support it with pillars of 'value'.

I guess the 'assumed' construct for a subject like this might be 'society' or 'civilisation'.

[Ghost-Girl]

s/he

Im female, thank you very much.
I had thought it would be pretty obvious.

[raincrow007]

Im female, thank you very much.
I had thought it would be pretty obvious.

My apologies. However, such things are not always readily apparent. I prefer to err on the side of caution in such matters.

[Ghost-Girl]

My apologies. However, such things are not always readily apparent. I prefer to err on the side of caution in such matters.

Eh, no problem.

[Justin05]

I think it will be great to become a conceptual artist. I would keep a journal on art and point out that I am just doing it to see how much $$$$ I can make. I would also show how ridiculous I think it is. Then after my picture sold for a million I would release the book. This is what I would do. I would take a picture of a picture of a picture of a picture that someone took a picture of. I read about someone doing something similar and selling it for a million dollars.

[RottenApple]

I think it will be great to become a conceptual artist. I would keep a journal on art and point out that I am just doing it to see how much $$$$ I can make. I would also show how ridiculous I think it is. Then after my picture sold for a million I would release the book. This is what I would do. I would take a picture of a picture of a picture of a picture that someone took a picture of. I read about someone doing something similar and selling it for a million dollars.
hehe
Kind of like the Andy Kaufman of fine art.

[int]

My wife just graduated from th Art Institute of Colorado with an Interior Design bachelor's. It is an art school, and a damn good one. They got her drawing, sketching, rendering, etc like an artist. And she was certainly not one when she enrolled.

Plus she's received multiple, well paying job offers.

[azurwarrior]

A bachelor's degree at the Art Institute is about 70,000 dollars. Even with loans that is a ridiculous amount of money. When I visited that school without a portfolio I was going to be accepted. There is something very wrong w/ that school to accept someone without a portfolio. They will train/teach/con/manipulate anybody.


Not necessarily. I'll just jump in here. Just about anyone can get INTO Berklee College of Music. (Check out their website if you are not familiar with them). www.berklee.edu
NO audition is required. They have placement evaluations so you can learn at exactly the right pace for you.
The school's curriculum has been compared to Harvard's. Which one is more difficult?
Students who have attended both usually find Berklee to be more rigorous.
The world famous school attracts musicians from around the globe (52 countries when I attended).
They recognise not everyone has had the same opportunities to learn their craft.
Getting in is easy. STAYING is difficult indeed. Having an open mind helps.
Although it does seem like anytime a musician achieves great musical-but not always financial success, they give him an Honorory Doctorate from Berklee.
Kevin Eubanks recently got his degree from there, but I think it was actually earned from classroom credits-though it would have been earned, anyway..
But I agree that tuition these days is just outrageous.
I'd like to go back to school and study Interior Design, but I'm 42 and rather on the financially "challenged" side. (Very "rather)."
The starving artist doesn't get much financial help for his struggles in this SJ world. At least not here in the States.
But on the bright side, I read where us INTP's are the most likely to be ahead of our time...maybe 200 years from now they'll find INTPC and be amazed.

[Birdsnest]

I haven't read the replies, but my first response to the question asked is that because schools don't even FUND art at the elementary and other levels, the state govt. has undervalued art and artists by not even teaching it. It doesn't consider it a necessary academic. So in that way, it is very undervalued.

[Ferrus]

Artists (or all media), philosophers and teachers of all kinds are undervalued by the world. Such is the ascendency of the SJ.

[Jennywocky]

Artists (or all media), philosophers and teachers of all kinds are undervalued by the world. Such is the ascendency of the SJ.

I would qualify this by saying that SJs actually love artists -- as long as the artist is not interfering with their way of doing things, getting underfoot, or challenging their worldview and sensitivities.

The artist is both glamorized AND condescended to. Everyone seems to want to be one, but everything that makes a person creative is simultaneously put down as immature or naive or irresponsible or impractical.

[abathur]

Yes and no? It's ever more popular to be an artist of some sort. At the same time, with free self-pub for any genre you wish, it's a lot easier for people to delude themselves and claim to actually be artists. That cheapens it. I always object when someone I know tries to introduce me to someone else as "a poet." For now, I'm just a person who writes what I hope is poetry.

I object less to "writer" since the word isn't so loaded. So I guess the terms become dulled. Most people wouldn't walk around calling themselves rock stars. Maybe they'd call themselves musicians if they spend all their time on it. Or maybe they blush and say, "I'm just in a band." That's more ideal. When everyone who paints in their spare time is a painter, or an artist, it becomes a "so what?" sort of thing.

It happens in more general areas of culture, too. When it starts out, being ghetto, or punk, or emo, or whatever, it's a label other people apply to you as a descriptor. Once the label becomes desirable enough that people are applying it themselves, you're going to get people who think they're ghetto but aren't. It's going to change and trivialize and evolve the perception of the original thing.

I had a girl ask me the other day if I consider myself X or Y or Z (punk, etc.) and I just had to chuckle and say that I try to leave categorization up to other people as it's effectively an exercise in criticism.

[luzian]

I almost went to a high school for art. I find that I could not be an artist on demand, therefore never to persue a career in it. I also find that art too risky a career path.

[rhinosaur]

I think that if you are truly an artist you don't need art school.

[luzian]

I think that if you are truly an artist you don't need art school.

Thank you :)

[s0978]

I would qualify this by saying that SJs actually love artists -- as long as the artist is not interfering with their way of doing things, getting underfoot, or challenging their worldview and sensitivities.and is there such a thing as an artist who does not "interfere"? Is it even art if the work is not avant garde in some respect? Or is "art" simply more like "self-expression"?


The artist is both glamorized AND condescended to. Everyone seems to want to be one, but everything that makes a person creative is simultaneously put down as immature or naive or irresponsible or impractical.very curious indeed.

[s0978]

I think that if you are truly an artist you don't need art school.

heh. And if you're smart, you don't need higher education, right?

[abathur]

I think that if you are truly an artist you don't need art school.

Eh. There's a difference between needing something and benefiting from it. s0532 is already jumping on that, but you also have a point to some extent.

In some ways, "art school" can be bad, in some ways good. It can help young artists figure things out much more quickly than they would on their own, especially when they have feedback from other students and instructors. Likewise, this feedback can restrict their creative inclinations to whatever is in vogue.

Loosely speaking, I don't think "art school" or "instruction" in the field of art is a bad idea for budding artists, as long as it enables them more than it restricts them, but schools giving artistic degrees of some sort do also contribute to the cheapening of things. It's another justification for people who suck being able to call themselves artists in some sense. A lot of the kids in our CW program here--even at the grad student level--aren't that good at what they do. That fact, however, won't make it any easier to convince someone with a BA and MFA in creative writing who is looking towards a PhD. in CW or literature that they are, in fact, not deserving of titles like poet, author and artist.

I think I'm benefiting from being in a CW program, but I also tend to be antagonistic when told I "can't" do something. There was a list of things not to do passed out at the beginning of the fiction course I'm in this semester, so I made sure to break a few in the first story.

[brakedown]

i think that art is not valued by the collective population in the us. this has something to do with the fact that everything is based on money. art has never been a real money maker, from my experience. so in the capitalist system simply expressing yourself or an idea is undervalued. in other cultures, being an artist was a respectable position. artists would be commissioned by the state or private groups to create works of art. when was the last time your city council paid an artist to make something creative just to look at/listen to?

[TaylorS]

I knew a couple people with the title "Creative Director" at Advertising agencies, who assured me that they were discouraged from actually being creative. The small exception was that they were encouraged to be creative about coming up with slight variations on a theme, regarding what had already been done a million times. The technology production tools get more interesting every year, however. So at least there's that.

That's what happens when you get xSTJs running things. doing something new is riskier then recycling some overused theme. America's corporate culture both in management and in labor unions, in general, is conservative and change-averse, which is obvious in the old dinosaurs like General Motors and Ford.

[TaylorS]

The main problem with art as it stands today is that it all seems to be either commercialized crap of pretentious crap. Don't get me started on the pretentious art snobs who fly into a rage if you criticize abstract "art."