Libertarianism Makes You Stupid --- Fine Essay

[Claverhouse]

Since libertarianism has been mentioned here, and as the author here starts:

People who venture into electronic discussion areas will invariable encounter an ideology called Libertarianism. In fact, it is said

Libertarianism (pro, con, and internal faction fights) is *the* primordial netnews discussion topic. Anytime the debate shifts somewhere else, it must eventually return to this fuel source.

Here's an essay by Seth Finkelstein:
Libertarianism Makes You Stupid (http://www.sethf.com/essays/major/libstupid.php)

But it's worth going on to the Critiques list link at base as well. Masses of good contemptuous dissecting of the Libs' 'Greed is Good' fundamentals. :devil:


Claverhouse
:ph34r:

[Jkrs]

Spot the contradiction, round 'I've lost count':


Since governments, when instituted, must not violate individual rights, we oppose all interference by government in the areas of voluntary and contractual relations among individuals.

Government's only role is to help individuals defend themselves from force and fraud.

Entering into a contract while lacking either the means or intention to fulfill your end of it can be considered fraud, which necessitates government intervention.


If you apply enough common sense (such a rare thing..) then a certain version of libertarianism can work. Some people are irreparably full of garbage, though.

[Hypnos]

But it's worth going on to the Critiques list link at base as well. Masses of good contemptuous dissecting of the Libs' 'Greed is Good' fundamentals. :devil:

There's one "axiom" of my libertarianism that can't be disproved: I don't like being told what to do.

[ApostateAbe]

I wouldn't call myself a full-fledged libertarian, but I think this country would be better off if it took steps in the libertarian direction. So I support the libertarian party. They are the party that most closely resembles my viewpoint. There are some real nutters in libertarianism, but that doesn't mean that libertarianism makes a person stupid.

[sme_bro]

thankyou! ive been looking for a written version of libertarianism downsides, i could see a few myself, i havnt read it yet but i hope that it covers it.
It would be interesting to get a sensible libertarian to read this(again i havnt read it yet) and mull over it for awhile before giving a response that covers every issue that it may (or may not-again havnt read it) raise.
Maybe us INTPs should think up a new and worthwhile form of government? a mix of this a dash of that?

[Hypnos]

[...]
It would be interesting to get a sensible libertarian to read this(again i havnt read it yet) and mull over it for awhile before giving a response that covers every issue that it may (or may not-again havnt read it) raise.
Well, as a libertarian (not necessarily sensible) I can argue till my face turns blue about the economic merits of laissez-faire -- some are obvious, many are not.

For me, I don't care about macroeconomics -- I, the individual, demand the right of first refusal over my own life and work.

[Slider]

Ah, a fellow Hayek fan I presume, hypnos? :)

claverhouse: wot, may I ask, is wrong with free trade? In your words please, not someone else's.

[Hypnos]

Yeah ;)

[Claverhouse]

Ah, a fellow Hayek fan I presume, hypnos? :)

claverhouse: wot, may I ask, is wrong with free trade? In your words please, not someone else's.

Free Trade makes the poor poorer and the rich richer. It is a scam on the weaker nations to make them give over their resources to the stronger nations. After a while of Free Trade, even the erstwhile Free-Traders call for some sort of protectionism.

See Bush lecturing the poorer nations on pulling them-selves up by their bootstraps: see Bush protecting American Steel. Look at how Joe Chamberlain and the Liberals and Tories of that period ( 1900s ) pulled this way and that way arguing for Free Trade, but Imperial Tarriffs to protect the British Empire. Earlier still, much of the 19th century in GB was arguing over the Corn Laws ( getting rid of protection for British farmers ): the antis swore it would destroy British farming. It passed; and since then, except for blips caused by wars ( obviously profitable ) and new ( bad chemical & mechanical ) methods, British farming has been going downhill all the way since 1870. ( Of course, to be fair, farmers in all countries are not totally the brightest members of the community ).

I'd have to use my own words: I've just been over to Wanniski's site and he's rambling about the Crash of '29 and a current housing or gold crisis or something: I couldn't understand a word. :D :rofl: :D

Anyway, it nearing 4am here I'll leave it. for now...

Claverhouse :ph34r:

[Hypnos]

Free Trade makes the poor poorer and the rich richer. It is a scam on the weaker nations to make them give over their resources to the stronger nations. After a while of Free Trade, even the erstwhile Free-Traders call for some sort of protectionism.
Um, protectionism is precisely why the poor stay poor. By propping up industries like steel, we are depriving developing economies of great opportunities for growth.

[Slider]

Bush abolished the steel tariffs, dumbass.

protectionism protects no one but those who are in the industry which is being protected. it screws consumers. so tell me, how is that helping the majority of the population?

[MacGuffin]

I am generally in favor of laissez-faire capitalism, but it can only truly work when parties are equal. And that is not always the case.

Libertarians love to argue about the force government can bear on an individual. But business can too once it accumulates a certain amount of power/capital.

[jittus rye]

Well I prefer any goods that are made through outsourcing to be taxed.. That way American made goods can compete with mexican, lets say. I'm all for blowing the shit out of any nation that looks at my nation the wrong way, though. Not saying that I would by any means ever carry a gun and do the job myself. I'm more into pressing buttons.

For example just last night the speaker of the house was on the news doing an interview, Fox I believe. He said that they are trying to abolish the IRS and just increase sales tax to compensate for it, with foreign goods getting an extra 5-10% tax, it sounds good to me.

[sme_bro]

well i chose a New Zealand libertarian political party for my speech... I got merit! there are 4 standards you can achive, they are non-acheived, achieved, merit and then exellence... alot of people didnt even try (which is funny because all of them are extraverts) the rest got achieved apart from 3 people who recieved Merit...me included :)
Lots of compliments about my 'intelligent' speech from people... It was a Topic i really enjoyed researching...
heres the transcript of it,

The future is coming, New Zealand needs to get on the boat, our current economical, social and cultural situation is not good enough, We need to raise our standards as a country so that we can make ourselves known and show we are above average western countries.
I am here to speak to you about my political party the libertarianz, but it may surprise you to know that I am not at all interested in getting the government to help these situations, in fact I would much rather they got there noses out of it. I believe the way to create the better New Zealand is for the government to take a step back and guard only what is most important, you, your safety, and our countries safety.

We are committed to shrinking the power and influence of the government in every area of your lives, There has never been a party consistently promoting a free society. We've had conservative parties, liberal parties, socialist parties, religious parties, women's parties, Maori parties, green parties and even pot - smoking parties. There has never been a libertarian party - until now.
What can you expect from us? Actually a lot, we have set a plan to turn New Zealand into a New Freeland!
We believe in individual sovergnnty that is that you are entitled to your life to live it as you see fit, as long as you respect this right in every other person. As well as this we believe that you have the full right to the products of your life and work, the government has no right at all to take your money from you nor does the government have the right to control how you use your property, it is yours and so you should be able to use it anyway you wish.

Libertarianz will mean awesome changes in New Zealand; and awesome changes for all of you, your lives will no longer have state involvement hindering your lives, where does all your tax money go? To whatever the government wants! This is wrong! Why don’t we just abolish all tax? Because that’s what we plan to do, eradicate tax completely, because tax is theft from you.
You may question why? The truth is you will often not see the works that your money creates, much of your tax dollars go into government funded programs they claim help you and help the country but are completely unnecessary, if I were running New Zealand I would scrap tax, the money you earn should be yours once more, however this will mean no government welfare handouts as we currently have. People on the dole may disagree with this, but if you physically able to then you will be able to take advantage of all the businesses expanding due to the lack of corporate tax, because with no corporate TAX it will be in all business’ best interests to expand and unemployment will drop dramatically.

But the biggest change of all will be the privatisation of major state owned assets my intention is to privatise, share out and cut funding to roading, electricity, gas, water, telecommunications, post, banking, money, parks, health, superannuation, charity, education and anything in the economic realm that the state gets its pilfering hands on. They will no longer be funded by your Taxes but instead will be run as any business in an open market No longer will your money go into things you don’t even see or use, it will be back in your pocket to spend.

Basically you will be spending slightly more but will still have more cash in pocket than you do right now because your money will only be going to things in your interest instead of the un-necessary things our government currently funds. Just open the Blue Pages in the phonebook to see all of the government organizations that aren’t needed, Why should schools send away our exams to be marked by the NZQA which hires people to do our teachers jobs, aren’t our teachers fully capable of marking and setting our exams based on what they have taught us? And all the organizations that fall under the Maori ministry, Why should there be sperate standards for separate cultures, are we not one nation of people with equal rights?
But the government will continue to fully fund a working police force, law system and defence force to protect and uphold your rights to freedom and liberty, Law and order in the libertarianz NZ will be focussed on real crimes as opposed to the victimless crimes that your tax money is wasted on, crimes like drug use will no longer become crimes as every person has a right to do whatever they want with their own body. Police will now spend time dealing with real crimes such as rape, robbery, murder and theft and the rights of these victims will be enforced and upheld.

State schools will undergo a major change,
The state has no business in education. It has shown itself to fail in the job, Private schools such as this one, have proven themselves to offer a far better education for the students with much better opportunities when they leave, could this be because they actually want students to attend and so must offer a better service than compulsory state owned factory schools?
I will return parents tax money to allow them to make their own choices in education. We would privatise all educational institutions.

In short, I will be giving the schools back to the parent’s -literally!
With education freed from state control, information on the variety and importance of education would be abundant - coming from competing private schools wishing to inform parents and students of their teaching methods.
The fact is that attending govt approved factory schools is compulsory at present, but education is not! In many cases, education is what you get 'after hours.' Many of the factory schools are attended only because they are compulsory, and would not be able to attract anyone otherwise. Must the state force parents to send children to these (at best) glorified day-care centres? Are they so bad that you would not attend them otherwise?

In any case, the school system is not efficient - except at transmitting the values of the State. A recent report concluded: "In no other industry in history has there been so little technological change as in the field of public school education."
Isn't it best we simply removed this state-school monopoly?
Factory schools will need to change in order to attract attendance rather than force it, and then they might get closer to educating children.
We intend to make this great country fulfil itself; we will be leading the world by example as we have in the past.
If you are serious about shrinking the size of government, and you want to ensure the success of a political party that truly stands for freedom, then we need your support - now! We offer you a unique opportunity to influence the future political direction of our nation. Join us, and let's make history together!

[Claverhouse]

For example just last night the speaker of the house was on the news doing an interview, Fox I believe. He said that they are trying to abolish the IRS and just increase sales tax to compensate for it, with foreign goods getting an extra 5-10% tax, it sounds good to me.

Actually, that is an almost classic definition of protectionism...


:) :) :)


Claverhouse :ph34r: