The Agnostic's God?

[Sackanaka]

I wrote this for an old xanga entry long ago, and am too lazy to revise it. Just wanted to see if there would be any reaction to it.


The thing I wanted to say is that I do have a god. It's name is Unknown. God is the unknown; it accounts for all things unknown to me. It is the reason why things exist, the reason why things are (currently) impossible to explain. See, for questionslike this: "What happens after you die? Where do you go? Do you have a soul?" My answer is "It is unknown." Maybe "Uncertain" is a more accurate term. I'll just call it Unknown since I have only one potential concept that is certain, and that is my god is Unknown. No other concepts; thus I cannot be uncertain about anything else. Plus,what kind of god name is "Uncertain" anyway?
Err... So what is my relationship with Unknown?
To get close to god(s) has almost always been a goal for religious people right? To keep with the religious theme of the usage of the term "god", I have made this as my conception of the subject: as I continue on in life, I discover things that were once unknown to me. Facts of both physical and intellectual worlds come into play every moment of consciousness, and with each thing learned I am getting a better grasp of the unknown as if I have embraced and absorbed it. To learn is to gain one more handful of the stuff Unknown is made of. This is fulfilling to me as a person. I know that I will never grasp Unknown entirely; it is too grand to be held by me alone. However, it is still a spiritually stimulating experience, and in this sense it is similar to a relgion. I don't do the rituals like the others; my rituals and ceremonies are the occasional (well, often) contemplation of what I have learned so far. It's like telling Unknown, "Hey, I'm got a bit closer to you and I like it."
To acknowledge someone's existence is one of the highest (if not the most) forms of flattery right? Yes, Naruto-insprired, but it's very true. True friends are those who acknowledge your existence. By acknowledging Unknown, as Christians, Muslims, and basically all other religious cultures do for their gods, I am being sincere, respectful, and humble to the greater force.

[jimkopelli]

So... rolling over when someone enters the room is one of the highest forms of flattery?
I like the view. There is definitely a great deal of things that are unknown to me...

[Birdsnest]

Your philosophy sounds Taoist. There is a picture book called "Tao Te Ching" that acknowledges the 10,000 things, and the unknown as the ultimate.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0679776192/qid=1100362397/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/102-2838343-1798516?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

[Werdna]

That is how I see god as well, though I didn't know there was a word for it.
I can believe in things, what god would want me to do, where I go when I die and such. But I am always aware that it is belief, and I accept the fact that I probably don't really know anything. I take my beliefs lightly, knowing I am not very consistent about them.
My signature says it all really.

[Sackanaka]

That is how I see god as well, though I didn't know there was a word for it.
I can believe in things, what god would want me to do, where I go when I die and such. But I am always aware that it is belief, and I accept the fact that I probably don't really know anything. I take my beliefs lightly, knowing I am not very consistent about them.
My signature says it all really.
It's nice to see some people can relate to my concept of god... too bad your quote is gone :/.
I'll probably try reading that tao te ching (same as daode jing? laozi?) one day. :D

[Werdna]

You have to change your profile options so you can see signatures with this new board. Or, if you just don't feel like it:

"God does not play dice with the universe: He plays an ineffable game of His own devising, which might be compared, from the perspective of any of the other players, i.e. everybody, to being involved in an obscure and complex version of poker in a pitch-dark room, with blank cards, for infinite stakes, with a Dealer who won't tell you the rules, and who smiles all the time."
Good Omens - Terry Pratchett & Neil Gaiman

[Sackanaka]

Whoa, thanks :D

[SheepDog]

I've always accepted that there are unknown things in the universe that I may never know. Many of them are the things you mention as typically answered by religion, like "how did we get here", and "what happens when we die". As for how to live our lives, that one seems pretty obvious, something akin to the golden rule.

This isn't to say that I don't still want to understand more about the world. I just approach the search with less of a destination in mind. Maybe the answers are out there, but I need to figure out the questions first. Who's to say that the questions that religion answers are even the right questions...

[Sackanaka]

Who's to say that the questions that religion answers are even the right questions...
Exactly! It's still unknown.
I guess I am making an irritatingly "ultimate truth" argument... so it's not meant to be taken too seriously, but it is how I tend to put things into perspective when I think about my religious beliefs.

[Johnny]

By acknowledging Unknown, as Christians, Muslims, and basically all other religious cultures do for their gods, I am being sincere, respectful, and humble to the greater force.

Yeah, I've articulated a somewhat similar argument here several times also. But in my dialogues with others here on the matter, occasionally there comes up the issue of Unknown as a thing of some sort, something that is separate from us. Usually, it takes some form that I interpret as: "God can't intimidate me from continuing to learn and grow, and those who think to know God and rattle imaginary credentials to speak for Him cannot do this either. I have a life to live!"

So when I think of Unknown as a thing of some sort, something that is separate from myself, I do wonder what is happening in my mind to do such a thing...and so instead of calling it Unknown, I like to right now call it the future, hoping that I'm not building an unnecessary wall and excluding something...be open to Rumsfeldian known unknowns and unknown knowns and the more sophisticated sophistries, because even those things can be useful tools at times. I haven't been very successful in challenging the future as God yet, except that neither your Unknown or my future are able to distinguish God from the world, our imagination, or some other such possibility-generator...and then I'm back to square one and wondering what the hell I was thinking.

Maybe I should call my belief in God, or Unknown, or the future a shameful shoulder-shrug...be more sincere to myself...then contribute a LOL and get back to work...

[Aryan]

The question is does "the unknown" want us to belive in him/her/it ?

[Johnny]

The question is does "the unknown" want us to belive in him/her/it ?

That's a good question too, a relevant extraverted question. To me, it's a problem in concieving of God as being separate from us...questions such as the one above beg to be answered and relationships defined.

Humpty Dumpty sits happily on the wall...only to fall...what do the experts tell us? LOL

[SensEye]

The question is does "the unknown" want us to belive in him/her/it ? Not in the way "the unknown" is described by the original poster. He relates "the unknown" to a collection of undiscovered/uncertain information. A collection of such does not have awareness and as such, does not have "wants".

It seems the moment someone refers to anything as "god" people immediately start to anthropomorphize it.

[Johnny]

It seems the moment someone refers to anything as "god" people immediately start to anthropomorphize it.
I'm guilty of that here, but it doesn't really matter. The problem of relationship remains. If someone throws a rock at your head, or you trip on it because it's in your way, a relationship can be established pretty easily. But how does the unknown get thrown at someone, or becomes an obstacle?

[Sackanaka]

Not in the way "the unknown" is described by the original poster. He relates "the unknown" to a collection of undiscovered/uncertain information. A collection of such does not have awareness and as such, does not have "wants".

It seems the moment someone refers to anything as "god" people immediately start to anthropomorphize it.

I think my usage of "god" brings in too many connotations of something with conscience purpose. The way I see it, it's there, and it's my choice to follow it for I see it as the most worthy goal. I'm the one that's human, not it.
And I have a name ;P but thanks for trying to explain the way I see it.

Things don't have to have physical form to be "real" you know :)

[cuspuser]

It would seem to me that the Agnostics "god" if we can call it that would have to be "unknown" but not necessarily "the unknown" ... Agnostics tend to be skeptical i think the two (skeptics and agnostics) go hand in hand. Thing is Skeptics and Agnostics want to be *absolutely* certain and want to do it though a logical process without jumping to conclusions based on information that they don't have access to.

This tends to go counter to religion because religions central tenent (at least western religions) is the notion of faith, and faith can be stated as the belief in something of which there can be no tangible proof. Oddly enough this view also shows us something about Atheists ... as Agnostics leave open the option that there is a "god" because there cannot be any proof contrary to it, athiests believe there is proof that there is no "god" or that the notion of "god" is non-sensical. I believe that since the Agnostic view is generally held by skeptics that it can be said that atheist also have a certain "faith" but a faith that is contrary to the religious faith - that is the believe that there is no "god" despite not being able to amass evidence to the contrary.

The Agnostic, being a logical being not wanting to make decisions without all the information cannot occupy either one of these positions. On the other hand the theists and atheists put 'faith' that they can have information about the nature of reality that agnostics don't think they have access to. Theist's generally accept that they can't know for sure and acknowledge that it is only through faith that they can believe in god - they also (like descartes - can use God to solve skeptical problems - ex. well the problem of the external world is a tough one, but god wouldn't deceive us like that so really it isn't), while the atheists generally take the lack of physical evidence or the lack of ability to gather evidence in order to sustain their position that there is no god, and don't seem to realize that it takes some 'faith' to get to this positions - this is because they believe they have disproved skeptical arguements about the nature of the external world, and that anything not in this physical reality isn't 'real'.

I'd like to know if my hypothesis is somewhat right here, which is that people who tend to agree with skeptical philosophical positions also tend to be agnostics. Any feedback to that would be appreciated.

[SensEye]

I think your hypothesis sounds reasonable. It certainly applies to me. I am skeptical about pretty much everything and an agnostic. As you say, atheists have a mindset/personality that seems to want certainty, and as such have it, even though it requires a kind of faith in their position.

[Sackanaka]

Sometimes I wonder, if I were held at gunpoint and ordered to choose between being a theist or an atheist, what would I choose? I'd probably feign a seizure/heartattack if I haven't gone into one already.

I do believe there be reason to be a correlation between the strongly logical and agnosticism, but the J's and F's may beg to differ because of the conflicting views of the term "logic". I tried to explain my excerpt on this subject to an INTJ friend, but I don't think he quite understood what I was getting at. Another INFJ friend commented about the uniquely abstract way of looking at spirituality in this sense, but I had the feeling he was refraining from giving an explanation why he did not believe in what I had to say. I guess I'm both frustrated and glad for such diversity amongst human personalities. Good thing we seem to understand each other though.

[last_caress]

With the currently available data, I believe agnosticism is the most sensible choice for anyone who considers themselves a critical thinker.
Of course I am biased.

I hope that in some form or another that our consciousness persists after death, but I try not to let that desire cloud my decision making.
In an individual sense, I hope the struggle is not in vain.

[QrioCT]

awesome...so some intps are agnostic like me. i was wondering how truly logical thinkers could deny the possibility so quickly like so many around me.
yeah, i agree. ive been religious once, and then i decided to look it over honestly. read all atheist theories and claims i could get my hands on, but i saw far too many error in logical deduction and assumptions.

and i have 2 questions:

If our 'god' is "the Unknown", when we reach him/her/it, wouldn't it be gone?

by knowledge we get closer to the Unknown, but by knowledge it disappears. so maybe it's not "the Unknown" that's the agnostic's God, but "Conquering the Unknown"?

and also, (im agnostic too but) is it sensible that we stay agnostics for life, even though we have no other logical choice as critical thinkers?

we know it is uncertain if there's some kind of a god, but that means there might be. so what if the Christian God was true and we all go to hell in the end? or maybe we all go to hell anyway even if we do take a chance because some other religion's right eventually. but isn't that better than taking no chance of "survival" at all? should we take some kind of a chance?

[cuspuser]

i've got these, lol :)

first off not that i think that our "god" is "the unknown" maybe rather that if there is a "god" it is "unknown" nehoo ... no need to think that it would disappear, but rather it becomes "known" at least to a certain extent (wouldn't there always be some unknown element unless you are one in the same as "god"?)

2nd ... there is another option, if "god" is supposed to be benevolent and all-loving it is more than likely that "god" would forgive me in so far as i lived in a moral way ... or that there is no choice in what the "god" is and the same thing happens to everyone ... this of course may take away from what we would like to tell criminally minded people, but whatever.

also, i believe that i will stay agnostic now (i haven't always been, i was atheist first then theist [tho, in my own little way not in any of the major religions way]) think about what questions the critical mind doesn't have answers to, or the information it doesn't have access to (perhaps more importantly) ... we because of our limited perspective cannot known was is external to our limited sphere(at least a sphere is how i like to visualize it, u can use whatever u like) ... now atheists will take this information and say this is all there is and i know what happens when people die, i've seen it before, and theists will take this and say that the world doesn't have all the answers and you need to believe in something more to bring meaning to your life or to avoid persecution.

both of these perspectives are going beyond what we can know - this is something that is impossible to bridge without a fundamental change in our perspective ...

to overcome this limitation whether being an atheist or theist takes a leap of faith (where faith is belief in something without the empirical evidence to back it up) and this generally is where i think the critical mind doesn't want to go.

also it would seem to me that avoiding damnation seems to be a bad reason to be religious - otherwise you may as well try and be everything.

(hmmmmm ... it would seem i already said most of this earlier in the thread ...)

[Sackanaka]

Yeah, "Unknown" is just the most appropriate name I could think of. It encompassed the idea of it being rather difficult to comprehend as well as the fact that I couldn't think of another name.
There's plenty of gods out there, but the GodAllah Yahweh seems to be THE Guy we talk think about first, at least where I'm from. From what I know of Christianity, the one thing even God himself doesn't touch is Free Will, which seems to tell me that it's pretty darn important to him. If I don't exercise my free will to think and challenge the system WHILE supressing my true calling, well, it could be the work of the Devil or it could be God's doing. Then I think, it couldn't be the Devil's work, because manipulating those who don't question would be a hell of a lot easier than those who do. Unless the Devil's just dumb like that, in which case we INTPs could probably rally together and overthrow him anyway.
Haha I may burn but hopefully I won't.

[QrioCT]

hmmmm...nice, S. i kinda thought that too. like what if the Bible has mistakes in it that the "devil" put in there, and nobody ever questioned it? except of course, if the whole Bible was false there would be no reason to side with God. but anyway, yeah, i guess there is no way to truly believe without having answers. i think these days people who believe in God sometimes "believe that they believe", like they know deep inside they have doubts but they believe that they truly believe in God.

[Shai Gar]

hell i believe there is a god and he gave us free will.
a long time ago he may or may not have influenced the prophets.
jesus, while a very good man and strong role model may not be divine (though very few people come close to his divinity)
jesus was probably a buddhist

i believe more in buddism (or as a second choice, islam )as the best path for humanity to take

[CreativeChaos]

Originally posted by: last caress:
With the currently available data, I believe agnosticism is the most sensible choice for anyone who considers themselves a critical thinker.

I totally agree with this statement. As far as the Unkown. I think that is right on. When people olden cultures, the unkown was the weather, crops, fertility. They didn't understand these things. So, insert a god. Harvest god, fertility god, etc.

Now that we know more, those gods do not exist, because we can explain these things. But in the areas we are still not sure of, we still will insert a god if we don't understand or can't explain it. It is the human attempt to feel in control of that over which we have no control or understanding. "So a hurricane is coming? Well, pray to god that it will not come this way."

[Edmond Zedo]

"If I'm gonna take a bullet for a god, my god is 'poontang.'"