Revitalizing Baghdad

[mgb]

I think its time to change things up a little in Baghdad and why not start with the name. Baghdad is such an ugly name now. It reminds the world of evil dictators, huge palaces, weapons of mass destruction, SCUDs, oil for food, all very bad things. Maybe a pleasent name like Bushdad would make the people think of things like the ranch at Crawford, apple pie, Yale, all things that will help Iraqis start moving forward.

If things pan out here this could be the start of an online petition. Why not get in on the ground floor?

[Johnny]

Cashdad?

[waxwing]

Bolsadad?
Bolsita-dad?
Or perhaps, Baghdadito?

[Groty]

Halidad
City of Brotherly Distrust
Austin

[mgb]

Maybe Austin II.

Bush can only have two terms in America, there is no such limit in Iraq.

Seriously, I am a little disappointed in the results. I notice there have been a lot of views and not a lot of votes. This is "A" material, why aren't people seeing that? And how are we supposed to start a revolution with three votes? Castro had more than three people when he took Cuba. Outrageous.

[MacGuffin]

Babylon

[Groty]

I notice there have been a lot of views and not a lot of votes.
Grazers...

Maybe we should call it New Baghdad, then revisit the question when it becomes home to Arab Disney, Chrysler M.E., and Walmart's Asian Headquarters.

Americanize the world! Blah...

I happen to like Cultural Diversity in the world. Feds + Corporations will kill it for my children.

[mgb]

Grazers...

Maybe we should call it New Baghdad, then revisit the question when it becomes home to Arab Disney, Chrysler M.E., and Walmart's Asian Headquarters.

Americanize the world! Blah...

I happen to like Cultural Diversity in the world. Feds + Corporations will kill it for my children.

Cultural what?

I like New Baghdad. Makes it sound like its part of the US North East. I bet everyone in Baghdad would vote against Bush too. haa haa

[Groty]

Cultural what? I just get the feeling that AMERICA wants to turn the rest of the world into AMERICA, making everyone else forget who they are.

Don't ask me to define AMERICA. That's like, another thread, or thesis, or something...

Cliff Note version though: McDonald's, L.L. Bean, Sears, Walmart, Rockport, Members Only Jackets, Bad Golfers, Red Lobster, Cheesesticks, Seinfeld Re-runs... and MTV. With a nice dash of CNN thrown in.

[mgb]

I was just making a diversity joke.

But yeah, I know what you mean.

Also, 5 votes. Vive la revolution.

[Lucas]

I just get the feeling that AMERICA wants to turn the rest of the world into AMERICA, making everyone else forget who they are.

Cliff Note version though: McDonald's, L.L. Bean, Sears, Walmart, Rockport, Members Only Jackets, Bad Golfers, Red Lobster, Cheesesticks, Seinfeld Re-runs... and MTV. With a nice dash of CNN thrown in.

I don't think it's America per se, but rather all the multinational corporations driving this.

"the automatic assumption that big multinationals are American is simply no longer true. In 1962 almost 60 per cent of the world's top 500 multinationals were American but by 1999 American corporations accounted for only 36 percent of the total."

--->taken from a really interesting article from the Yale center for the study of globalization, here, http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/display.article?id=2797



-Lucas

[Arioch]

This thread has given me a idea.

What is the stupidest thread you've ever seen?

[mgb]

This thread has given me a idea.

What is the stupidest thread you've ever seen?

I'd have to say this one is up there:

http://www.intpcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=637

[Arioch]

I'd have to say this one is up there:

http://www.intpcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=637

You don't put much thought in your posts do you?
Cause I've posted a lot worse then that. What did you do? Pick one at random?
Tsk

[mgb]

You don't put much thought in your posts do you?
Cause I've posted a lot worse then that. What did you do? Pick one at random?
Tsk

You've posted stupider things than that? Way to go? I guess you've really outdone me. I guess you put more, and at the same time less, thought into your posts than I do.

Thanks for coming out.

[Arioch]

You've posted stupider things than that? Way to go? I guess you've really outdone me. I guess you put more, and at the same time less, thought into your posts than I do.

Thanks for coming out.

Sorry, not looking for a boyfriend so you can go back into the closet.

Buh bye

P.S. Don't worry, you have the crown for stupidest posts. Fasinating how in such a short time you've won over the jury :D

[Vagabond]

INTPs arguing about who is more/less stupid. Typical. Bleh.

[mgb]

Sorry, not looking for a boyfriend so you can go back into the closet.

Buh bye

P.S. Don't worry, you have the crown for stupidest posts. Fasinating how in such a short time you've won over the jury :D

Actually you showed up out of nowhere and acted like a bitch and that makes me gay because?

Don't worry I am not going to try and date any girls that haven't hit puberty yet. And far be it from me to take your crown away, its all yours. Enjoy.

[Groty]

Actually you showed up out of nowhere and acted like a bitch and that makes me gay because?

Don't worry I am not going to try and date any girls that haven't hit puberty yet. And far be it from me to take your crown away, its all yours. Enjoy.

That's it!! :laser:

*Groty Officially redirects discussion to Albino MIDGET Porn*

[Arioch]

That's it!! :laser:

*Groty Officially redirects discussion to Albino MIDGET Porn*

Now where would we find enough Albino Midgets do make porn movies of?
I mean it's hard enough to find albino to star in a porn movie, let alone albino midgets.

Couldn't we just get some midgets and paint them white?

[gypseymothlee]

*Groty Officially redirects discussion to Albino MIDGET Porn*
Now that's some sexy porn.

[Groty]

Now where would we find enough Albino Midgets do make porn movies of?
I mean it's hard enough to find albino to star in a porn movie, let alone albino midgets.

Couldn't we just get some midgets and paint them white?
Should we start a thread in Science - Cloning and Genetically Engineering Porn Star Quality Albino Midgets?

[candela]

Are you just trying to make fun of America? Because I don't think they'll rename Baghdad. Not saying I thought you were serious with your choices, but I don't see how the joke makes any sense.

[mgb]

Are you just trying to make fun of America? Because I don't think they'll rename Baghdad. Not saying I thought you were serious with your choices, but I don't see how the joke makes any sense.

A little making fun. Not so much of America though, otherwise I would have called it Americadad. I think from some of the other posts about names that even within America there is some dessention about the war in Iraq. If anything it was a comment on how far (in a silly sense) Bush might feel he can or needs to go in spending his political capital. In that way I think it plays of the Bush sense that as "liberator" of Iraq he could feel that he is owed something for that. So I might consider the thread a tongue in cheek political commentary because I don't think a lot of sense can be made of the entire situation as the world and I watch the US plunge itself deeper into Iraq.

Really I was just being nonsensical for the sake of being nonsensical. I don't think they will rename it either.

[InsurgentAlpha]

Leave the poor guy alone, sheesh. Damn that PMS!

[Groty]

Are you just trying to make fun of America? Because I don't think they'll rename Baghdad. Not saying I thought you were serious with your choices, but I don't see how the joke makes any sense.
Just a little sarcasm, that's all. Fun, creative outlet.

[InsurgentAlpha]

After this last election we deserve to be made fun of.

I do it myself, but then again I'm half Canadian. =P

[mgb]

I feel like the I know the dark side. haa haa


Got this from http://similarminds.com/mbjung/intp.html

INTP

loner, more interested in intellectual pursuits than relationships or family, wrestles with the meaninglessness of existence, likes esoteric things, disorganized, messy, likes science fiction, lonely, observer, private, can't describe feelings easily, detached, likes solitude, not revealing, unemotional, rule breaker, avoidant, familiar with the darkside, skeptical, acts without consulting others, does not think they are weird but others do, socially uncomfortable, abrupt, fantasy prone, does not like happy people, appreciates strangeness, frequently loses things, acts without planning, guarded, not punctual, pro-weed, not prone to compromise, hard to persuade, relies on mind more than on others, calm

Well this explains a lot or does it ?

[SheepDog]

You're either with us or you're with the terrorists.

[Claverhouse]

You're either with us or you're with the terrorists.

Look up Neutrality as a concept.

Both the Islamofanatics and the Ideals of US Civilisation are an equal threat to the civilised world ( or to be more accurate, it's remnants ).



Claverhouse :ph34r:


:laser:
Why not ?

[relaxo]

Look up Neutrality as a concept.

Both the Islamofanatics and the Ideals of US Civilisation are an equal threat to the civilised world ( or to be more accurate, it's remnants ).




Really? That is a bold statement that needs examination.

Let's see. Isalmofanatics are against democracy, in fact the islamic world, with few exceptions, has poor democracies or none at all

islamic nations, with few exception, have dismal economies.

homosexuality is not allowed in most if not all islamic nations. islamofascists want them killed.

islamofascists would have women covered and kept indoors.

premartial sex in isalmofascist society? none. in fact, if a woman become pregnant outside of marriage, she gets stoned to death.


freedom of expression is against islamofascism

Is there any point in continuing? There is no comparison. Your statement is ridiculous and out of touch with reality. I expect better from an INTP.

[coffeezombie]

Is there any point in continuing? There is no comparison. Your statement is ridiculous and out of touch with reality. I expect better from an INTP.

I'd also expect an INTP to address the point being made about how US ideals are an equal threat to the world instead of ignoring it and going on a tirade against Islamic countries.

[relaxo]

I'd also expect an INTP to address the point being made about how US ideals are an equal threat to the world instead of ignoring it and going on a tirade against Islamic countries.

My apologies for not pointing out how terrible US IDEALS are.

First off, democracy is horrible.

Individualism is atrocious.

Free enterprise achieves nothing.

Freedom of religion results in a lost society with no values.


Of course these are not just US ideals, but also accepted to a large extent by Europeans and other non-islamic nations, and are accepted by a large minority of islamic people themselves. Fools.

[Arioch]

Really? That is a bold statement that needs examination.

Let's see. Isalmofanatics are against democracy, in fact the islamic world, with few exceptions, has poor democracies or none at all

islamic nations, with few exception, have dismal economies.

homosexuality is not allowed in most if not all islamic nations. islamofascists want them killed.

islamofascists would have women covered and kept indoors.

premartial sex in isalmofascist society? none. in fact, if a woman become pregnant outside of marriage, she gets stoned to death.


freedom of expression is against islamofascism

Is there any point in continuing? There is no comparison. Your statement is ridiculous and out of touch with reality. I expect better from an INTP.

*sigh*

I'm not going to explain why your argument is wrong. It's too late in the evening to start explaining the differences beyond different Islamic states in law and other things. But could you at least keep your terms coherant?

Isalmofanatics, Islamofacists and Islamic are three totally different terms. One of which (Islamofacists) do not or hardly exists. While I might not have the time to explain the world outside of Fox News I can tell you that there are few Muslims, fanatic or otherwise that adhere to facism as a political theory or philosophy .

[Claverhouse]

Really? That is a bold statement that needs examination.

Let's see. Isalmofanatics are against democracy, in fact the islamic world, with few exceptions, has poor democracies or none at all

islamic nations, with few exception, have dismal economies.

homosexuality is not allowed in most if not all islamic nations. islamofascists want them killed.

islamofascists would have women covered and kept indoors.

premartial sex in isalmofascist society? none. in fact, if a woman become pregnant outside of marriage, she gets stoned to death.


freedom of expression is against islamofascism

Is there any point in continuing? There is no comparison. Your statement is ridiculous and out of touch with reality. I expect better from an INTP.
My apologies for not pointing out how terrible US IDEALS are.

First off, democracy is horrible.

Individualism is atrocious.

Free enterprise achieves nothing.

Freedom of religion results in a lost society with no values.


Of course these are not just US ideals, but also accepted to a large extent by Europeans and other non-islamic nations, and are accepted by a large minority of islamic people themselves. Fools. Yes, Democracy is horrible. It is a vile illogical concept that thankfully cannot be attained in real life. However, it's purported practitioners never even try to implement it's sick reality, and instead substitute different forms of oligarchy which are nearly as bad, and are equally offensive.

The reasons why it has become a religious belief, and the dire effects of that belief, and the reason that it --- like most exaltations of individual liberty --- is more a symptom of a culture's final decline, have all been addressed by Nietzsche & Spengler.

The fact that middle eastern economies are 'dismal' may have less to do with their own efforts than to do with the efforts of others to create a world-trading system that keeps them and third-world countries down: however, the fact they have poor economies is immaterial should they prefer it that way; it is after all, up to them to decide how they prefer things. They certainly don't want to be transformed into wealthy and materialistic suburbs of the USA along with it's associated crime and vice. If you take one, you have to take the other.

Further, the great golden civilisation of Byzantium had an excellent economy for the times it existed. Never strikes me as anything to do with it's practice of, and love of, Democratic Values.


Homosexuality has long been associated with Arabic Islamic countries. They have a tradition of loving boys. If genuine democracy had been implemented in different parts of America during the last century, there would have been no gays left alive. The fact that it is presently part of the Liberal consensus of our rulers to promote homosexuality etc. is merely coincidental with their present promotion of Democracy as the being and goal of life. Should it suit our rulers that could change as fast as discovering that homophobia suited them better ( as it did in America in say, the 1950s ).

Not all Islamic societies keep women in subjection, and as in the 19th century and any earlier in Europe and America, most women actually work. Quite hard, in fact. Feminist leaders, having been mainly from the middle-class, or above, themselves, projected the pattern of the plight of middle-class women as how all women were treated. And most of them had maids... Who were women and worked in subjection to their mistresses.

There are even women lawyers and artists and in business in Islamic countries.

Actually, in 20th century Britain if a girl got pregnant outside marriage she could be shoved away in a mental home or put in the care of nuns forever. Pretty brutal care too. Better than stoning, you will say. Obviously, but also, depending on family and other factors, other girls in the same place and time just brought the child up normally. So, I shouldn't assume that all pregnant girls outside wedlock are stoned to death. Depends on the family: just as in Ireland when it too was fanatically religious.

Also in Islam theoretically the male is equally liable to stoning or beheading.

Rather more disturbing are 'Honour-Killings' for that and similar offences: but these predate Islam, and are part of the autonomous democratic decision-making process of the family unit. Democracy sucks. Most of all at it's basic roots.

Freedom of Expression is not allowed in Western countries either. America allows it more than Canada or Europe, but only to the extent where it becomes a political threat and no further. Why is the pacifist Ernst Zundel still in jail ? Just because they can't decide over his passport ? Nope: because he challenges the official line over the murder of the jews. He may be wrong and he may be right, but he's been there a coupla years in solitary.


Check 2nd:

1. Democracy. Covered.
2. Individualism. Well some individualism is good and other individualism is bad. Thoreau's individualistic beliefs seem OK, if trite: but Carlyle's individualism wasn't that helpful. The trouble is this is it is too vague a charge. It's harks back to a time when the favourite means of attack was to imply that in our society we are all free, in their society they are all brain-washed slaves --- Russians, Germans, Koreans, Chinese, Arabs: you name a society we're fighting, they all turn out to be mindless robots.

The reason I don't read Heinlein, despite his popularity on the web, was his gross and hideous racialism that horrified even me. And I don't get shocked.
3. Free enterprise. The Arabs and the jews were trading goods long before Europe, let alone America, was born. Generally slaves in both cases, but even today I doubt anyone could claim the average Levantine in inferior in ability to any American MBA. However they may not exalt 'Free Enterprise' as the second greatest thing on earth after 'Democracy'. There are other ideals.
4.' Freedom of religion results in a lost society with no values.' I've no idea, not being religious. But I can't see that in comparative cultures, America has any edge over say, it's buddy Saudi. Both strike me, as an old-school European, as equally inferior...

Whilst writing, Arioch has addressed the 'Fascist' issue. All I can add is that 'fascism' is only of use as a term of abuse, because very few are gonna revive Mussolini's wicked empire. [ Nazis weren't fascists, entirely different programme: both very dull. ] To associate Islamic fanatics with fascism or anything similar, you'd have to find a similarity between them including uniforms, private police-forces, a spare dictator acknowledged by them, a socialist programme and the exultation of the Nation in the fascist case and the Race in the nazi case. The nazis also famously disliked jews. The Islamic fanatics do also, but only because they are occupying Palestine, not because they are a rival Master-Race. Islam has no truck with racialism. If the jews left Israel tomorrow, the Arabs would never worry about jews anywhere else. *



Claverhouse :ph34r:


[* And of course, it's the nazis who helped the zionists enormously, and vice versa --- the zionists were the only other party allowed to have a flag during the 1930s in Germany --- who were partly responsible for the jews getting hold of Palestine. Something those Arabs who admire the nazi anti-semitism might like to ponder over. ]

[relaxo]

*sigh*

I'm not going to explain why your argument is wrong. It's too late in the evening to start explaining the differences beyond different Islamic states in law and other things. But could you at least keep your terms coherant?

Isalmofanatics, Islamofacists and Islamic are three totally different terms. One of which (Islamofacists) do not or hardly exists. While I might not have the time to explain the world outside of Fox News I can tell you that there are few Muslims, fanatic or otherwise that adhere to facism as a political theory or philosophy .

I agree, most muslims are not radical religious fanatics, just as most Americans are not radical democratics.
Certainly some nations such as malaysia have a more liberal society, but that example is rare.

(I do not watch television, what is fox news?)
The issue however, was that Islamofanatics are as much a threat to the world as the USA.

Islamofanatics practice Islam. Therefore outside of Afghanistan of yesterday and Iran of today, it is relevant to look at what even a mild dose of islamic society creates compared to the ideals of the USA. It's record is not impressive, it is oppresive.

[relaxo]

Yes, Democracy is horrible. It is a vile illogical concept that thankfully cannot be attained in real life. However, it's purported practitioners never even try to implement it's sick reality, and instead substitute different forms of oligarchy which are nearly as bad, and are equally offensive.
Democracy is simply being able to vote for your leader(s). It is superior to revolution or divine appointments.



The reasons why it has become a religious belief, and the dire effects of that belief, and the reason that it --- like most exaltations of individual liberty --- is more a symptom of a culture's final decline, have all been addressed by Nietzsche & Spengler.
Ah the final decline. Yes, it's taking a long time though. What other prophecies do you believe in?





The fact that middle eastern economies are 'dismal' may have less to do with their own efforts than to do with the efforts of others to create a world-trading system that keeps them and third-world countries down: however, the fact they have poor economies is immaterial should they prefer it that way; it is after all, up to them to decide how they prefer things. They certainly don't want to be transformed into wealthy and materialistic suburbs of the USA along with it's associated crime and vice. If you take one, you have to take the other.

Of course people do not want material wealth. How foolish.
Crime and vice. It's either on the street or in government.




Further, the great golden civilisation of Byzantium had an excellent economy for the times it existed. Never strikes me as anything to do with it's practice of, and love of, Democratic Values.
And they weren't islamic either. Rome and Greece and China and India, were either. However in today's world, democracies have the best track record for wealth creation.




Homosexuality has long been associated with Arabic Islamic countries. They have a tradition of loving boys.

Not today however.




Not all Islamic societies keep women in subjection,

nope, just the islamofanatics



Actually, in 20th century Britain if a girl got pregnant outside marriage she could be shoved away in a mental home or put in the care of nuns forever.

yep, and somehow this all changed. Something about democracy?





Freedom of Expression is not allowed in Western countries either. America allows it more than Canada or Europe, but only to the extent where it becomes a political threat and no further. Why is the pacifist Ernst Zundel still in jail ? Just because they can't decide over his passport ? Nope: because he challenges the official line over the murder of the jews. He may be wrong and he may be right, but he's been there a coupla years in solitary.

Good example. However, put it in context. Democratic natiosn have way more expresion of freedom than islamofanatics will allow.




2. Individualism. Well some individualism is good and other individualism is bad. Thoreau's individualistic beliefs seem OK, if trite: but Carlyle's individualism wasn't that helpful. The trouble is this is it is too vague a charge.
The good thing about individualism is youcan be as individual as you want. You can immerse yourself in trite philosophy.



3. Free enterprise. The Arabs and the jews were trading goods long before Europe, let alone America, was born.

yep, they were.



[ Nazis weren't fascists, entirely different programme: both very dull. ]

Dull. Yes. You know what is dull? Philosophers. And pretentious people who like to use them to try and attain an air of some sort of intellectual superiority.



To associate Islamic fanatics with fascism or anything similar, you'd have to find a similarity between them including uniforms, private police-forces, a spare dictator acknowledged by them, a socialist programme and the exultation of the Nation in the fascist case and the Race in the nazi case. The nazis also famously disliked jews. The Islamic fanatics do also, but only because they are occupying Palestine, not because they are a rival Master-Race. Islam has no truck with racialism. If the jews left Israel tomorrow, the Arabs would never worry about jews anywhere else. *

There is an Arab nationalist movement. They refer to me as white meat. They do have common dress. They all bow down to allah, just as fascists salute the leader.
Naism is fascism. It is close enough to fit into the label. Islam does espouse socailist style economy, and many radical islamic groups are marxist.




[* And of course, it's the nazis who helped the zionists enormously, and vice versa --- the zionists were the only other party allowed to have a flag during the 1930s in Germany --- who were partly responsible for the jews getting hold of Palestine. Something those Arabs who admire the nazi anti-semitism might like to ponder over. ]
I'm sure they pondered it after counting out the bodies. But bodies don't mater if you read Nietzsche.

[EdwinJefferson]

Actually, in 20th century Britain if a girl got pregnant outside marriage she could be shoved away in a mental home or put in the care of nuns forever.

The 20th century just ending and all.. I think you'll find that from the 1960's onwards.. that didn't happen like it did in the first half of the century, so you should have said early/mid..

[relaxo]

hey Claverhouse, I have to thank you actually!

I think it was the last INTP board, you replied to something I posted and went on about your philosophers and such, and I thought, why am i wastign my life posting things? It rarely changes anyone's mind. I have better things to do. So I stopped with the board for a long time.
Today I was trying to study, so of course I end up on the board posting.

And once again, I read your reply and say to myself, why am I wasting my time? I really do have better things to do.

No offense to you. I can tell by your numerous posts (over 1300! amazing) that this stuff is important to you.

it's fun once and awhile, but I've wasted hours today. gotta go. I know I won't be missed! but I will be back one day.

[Claverhouse]

The 20th century just ending and all.. I think you'll find that from the 1960's onwards.. that didn't happen like it did in the first half of the century, so you should have said early/mid..
It might have stopped by the '60s in America, but in Ireland, and I would imagine parts of Scandanavia, girls were still being locked up in institutions ( probably 'mental' for the upper-classes and nun-run institutions for the poor ) this went on a bit longer. One lady introduced to me when I was a kid had been in a mental place for having a child, but that would have been as you say in the '30s or '40s. She was an OAP by the time she came out. However, quite a few people, male and female, were shoved in these places for virtually no reason from the '20s to '80s. If they weren't mental when they went in...



Claverhouse :ph34r:


[ Earlier I should have pointed out that 'Individualism' and 'Ideals' are antithetical, therefore 'Individualism' is not an American Ideal, nor has it ever been widely promoted by American society at large --- the hippies were almost laughably considered a threat in the 1960s --- or widely encouraged by the American Government. ]

[mgb]

So ummm, how did you guys vote? Baghdad probably, seems to be how things are going..

[Shai Gar]

i voted for the stogey one

[mgb]

hey Claverhouse, I have to thank you actually!

I think it was the last INTP board, you replied to something I posted and went on about your philosophers and such, and I thought, why am i wastign my life posting things? It rarely changes anyone's mind. I have better things to do. So I stopped with the board for a long time.
Today I was trying to study, so of course I end up on the board posting.

And once again, I read your reply and say to myself, why am I wasting my time? I really do have better things to do.

No offense to you. I can tell by your numerous posts (over 1300! amazing) that this stuff is important to you.

it's fun once and awhile, but I've wasted hours today. gotta go. I know I won't be missed! but I will be back one day.


Is it like attack of the Trolls this weekend?

Glad I went skiing.

[Shai Gar]

indeed he did seem to be

[Shai Gar]

skiing? no fair, i only went to the beach

[mgb]

skiing? no fair, i only went to the beach

I'll trade skiing for the beach any day.

[Shai Gar]

yeah? done.