Teaching Pigs to Sing: An Experiment in bringing critical thinking...

[CreativeChaos]

Teaching Pigs to Sing: An Experiment in Bringing Critical Thinking to the Masses. http://www.csicop.org/si/2006-03/thinking.html

Yeah, I was going through crap and saw this and thought of you guys. I know you won't read beyond the first few lines so,

It's a critique about how frustrating it is to bring some sense to people who believe in astrology. Yeah, I don't. But the masses do, and where is the Critical Thinking in that?

So, I figured, this is my best estimation as to where you guys are comming from. How can people be so stupid? Bringing critical thinking to the masses?

It's like trying to teach Pigs to Sing.

Well, do with it what you will.

[Krill]

"Truth doesn't matter."

"What's true for you may not be true for me; it's okay if we disagree."

"We create our own reality."

Oh man, that thinking is the bane of my existence (luckily not literally, otherwise these people could make a reality where I was dead).

It was funny to read, and very interesting. Lets you know what sorta beliefs are out there.

[CreativeChaos]

Oh man, that thinking is the bane of my existence (luckily not literally, otherwise these people could make a reality where I was dead).

It was funny to read, and very interesting. Lets you know what sorta beliefs are out there.

Wow! you read the whole thing! Yeah, it's really a cute read. THis is my favorite part.


Sure they had. I heard about a woman who told a group of friends she had identified new constellations for a more up-to-date astrology; instead of names like Sagittarius and Pisces, the new constellations had names like Vacuum Cleaner and Telephone. She explained how those born under the Vacuum Cleaner are perfectionists who like everything to be neat and clean, and how those born under the Telephone sign are verbally oriented, good communicators, and have lots of friends. Her friends didn't get the joke. They asked where they could learn more about this great new system!

[Krill]

Wow! you read the whole thing! Yeah, it's really a cute read. THis is my favorite part.


Sure they had. I heard about a woman who told a group of friends she had identified new constellations for a more up-to-date astrology; instead of names like Sagittarius and Pisces, the new constellations had names like Vacuum Cleaner and Telephone. She explained how those born under the Vacuum Cleaner are perfectionists who like everything to be neat and clean, and how those born under the Telephone sign are verbally oriented, good communicators, and have lots of friends. Her friends didn't get the joke. They asked where they could learn more about this great new system!

Reminds me of a great Monty Python sketch:

Mrs O: What [star sign] are you?

Mrs Trepidatious: I'm Nesbitt.

Mrs O: There's not a zodiacal sign called Nesbitt...

Mrs Trepidatious: All right, Derry and Toms.

Mrs O: (surveying paper) Aquarius, Scorpio, Virgo, Derry and Toms. April 29th to March 22nd. Even dates only.

Mrs Trepidatious: Well what does it presage?

Mrs O: You have green, scaly skin, and a soft yellow underbelly with a series of fin-like ridges running down your spine and tail. Although lizard like in shape, you can grow anything up to thirty feet in length with huge teeth that can bite off great rocks and trees. You inhabit arid sub-tropical zones and wear spectacles.

Mrs Trepidatious: It's very good about the spectacles.

Mrs O: It's amazing.

Mrs Trepidatious: Mm ... what's yours, Irene?

Mrs O: Basil.

Mrs Trepidatious: I'm sorry, what's yours, Basil?

Mrs O: No. That's my star sign, Basil...

Mrs Trepidatious: There isn't a...

Mrs O: Yes there is ... Aquarius, Sagittarius, Derry and Toms, Basil. June 21st to June 22nd.

Mrs Trepidatious: Well, what does it say?

Mrs O: You have green, scaly skin and a series of yellow underbellies running down your spine and tail ...

Mrs Trepidatious: That's exactly the same!

Mrs O: Try number one ... what's Aquarius?

Mrs Trepidatious: It's a zodiacal sign.

Mrs O: I know that, what does it say in the paper Mrs Flan-and-pickle?

Mrs Trepidatious: All right... Oh! It says, 'a wonderful day ahead'. You will be surrounded by family and friends. Roger Moore will drop in for lunch, bringing Tony Curtis with him. In the afternoon a substantial cash sum will come your way. In the evening Petula Clark will visit your home accompanied by Mike Samrues singers. She will sing for you in your own living room. Before you go to bed, Peter Wyngarde will come and declare his undying love for you.

Mrs O: Urghhl What's Scorpio?

Mrs Trepidatious: Oh, that's very good. 'You will have lunch with a schoolfriend of Duane Eddy's, who will insist on whistling some of Duane's greatest instrumental hits. In the afternoon you will die, you will be buried...'

(What the Stars Foretell

As featured in the Flying Circus TV Show - Episode 37)

[CreativeChaos]

Yeah! LOL! Hilarious!

But you know that social theory says that a large group of people (such as this forum) usually degenerates to the lowest common demoninator.

[Krill]

Yeah! LOL! Hilarious!

But you know that social theory says that a large group of people (such as this forum) usually degenerates to the lowest common demoninator.

Actually I don't know that social theory, but I do now.

That's a pretty frightening theory, I'm not sure what to make of it, but my optimism when it comes to human nature wants me to deny it.

[venerationOFrabbits]

He sounds like a highly frustrated skeptic afraid to consider anything outside of his own belief system. Some people are that way.

Astrology is a projection, there is some truth to it. I happen to like Chiropractors myself.

[Carebear]

Danm, I'll have to agree with venerationOFrabbits. Though I really like the sceptic approach and all that, I don't quite get why some sceptics are so unsceptical about the scientific approach.

We live in a universe we've only just begun to understand fractions of, so why insist that if science hasn't described something yet, it can't possibly be real?

(I'm not defending astrology or the illogical answers she was given etc, but I'd like it if she didn't simply say e.g. that homeopathy is just water. Not without backing it up with more than "this is common sceptic knowledge" at any rate.)

[Stoned_Rider]

We live in a universe we've only just begun to understand fractions of, so why insist that if science hasn't described something yet, it can't possibly be real?

If science hasn't described something yet, then anyone who claims and insists it is real must be lying. Of course, that doesn't rule out the possibility that it might actually be real. It's just that it is impossible to know for sure without the scientific method.

Edit: Great article! It reminded me of another article I came across on the same website some time ago: Why Bad Beliefs Don't Die. (http://www.csicop.org/si/2000-11/beliefs.html)

[Carebear]

Nah. This might be nitpicking, but if people actually experience something unexplained and insists it's real, they're not lying. Might be they're not interpreting their experience the right way, but they're stil not lying. And they might be right about actually seing e.g. a ghost even if the scientific method can't verify it.

Also: It's not really possible to know for sure even WITH the scientific method, as I'm sure you're already aware of.

But that being said, I don't really trust any of that paranormal stuff and especially not people who want money to come with the trust. I rely on the scientific method, but I don't have complete faith in it.

[Stoned_Rider]

This might be nitpicking, but if people actually experience something unexplained and insists it's real, they're not lying. Might be they're not interpreting their experience the right way, but they're stil not lying.
Right. That's exactly what I wanted to say actually. I meant "lying" in the sense that they are not telling the truth, whether deliberately or otherwise.

I also agree that someone might be right about seeing a ghost. It could be a one-off incident and so there is no way it can be verified. However, I am mainly talking about people who claim they are in constant contact with ghosts, spirits, whatever...

I do not totally rule out the possibility that someone might have some sort of paranormal ability. I am just saying someone who claims this sort of thing should be able to prove it beyond any doubt. In fact, I would love to one day come across someone with a tested and proven paranormal ability. That would undoubtedly take science to the next level.
Oh, and I totally don't buy into the "science hasn't learned how to test us yet" argument. That's bollocks. There are sufficient scientific methods that are effective enough to test just about any paranormal claim.

James Randi's website (http://www.randi.org) has been running a one million dollar challenge for some time now, for anyone who is able to prove their paranormal abilities. It has a forum that includes a log of applicants (http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=43) and how successful they were. Please do check it out, some of them are absolutely hilarious :D

[Arcturus]

Teaching Pigs to Sing: An Experiment in Bringing Critical Thinking to the Masses. http://www.csicop.org/si/2006-03/thinking.html

Yeah, I was going through crap and saw this and thought of you guys. I know you won't read beyond the first few lines so,

It's a critique about how frustrating it is to bring some sense to people who believe in astrology. Yeah, I don't. But the masses do, and where is the Critical Thinking in that?

So, I figured, this is my best estimation as to where you guys are comming from. How can people be so stupid? Bringing critical thinking to the masses?

It's like trying to teach Pigs to Sing.

Well, do with it what you will.

Thanks for the article. I love this kind of stuff. Have you read any of James Randi's books? He's a magician by trade who's spent the last few decades trying to debunk paranormal claims and supposed psychics and the like.

[Arcturus]

I liked this part:


In retrospect, I probably should have told the astrologer I wasn't going to believe in astrology because my horoscope said I shouldn't be gullible.

I've used something similar myself. Someone asks my sign and I'll say that I'm a Libra, but Libras don't believe in horoscopes.

[rivercrow]

Is now a good time to mention that Jung was fascinated in and studied astrology, the I Ching, and alchemy?

:)

[venerationOFrabbits]

Alchemy rocks.

[Krill]

Alchemy rocks.

I thought there was only one philosopher's stone.

[Carebear]

I thought there was only one philosopher's stone.

Good one. :)

I also agree totally with your last post, Stoned_Rider. The log is sometimes hillarious, thanks for the link. :D

[rainfall]

Note that there are 2 FP's in this thread who support this sort of nonsense.
Which makes CC stand out amongst her peers for making this thread.
If I was Harriet I would knock Dan's teeth out while he is asleep and leave a note saying that the tooth fairy did it and that if he said any different to parents she would tell testicle cancer fairy all about it.

[Heleuiski]

I'm interested in teh I ching. Fun stuff.

[boppa]

Note that there are 2 FP's in this thread who support this sort of nonsense.
Which makes CC stand out amongst her peers for making this thread. I'm with CC on this one. Whilst the moon and other space objects may be able to affect the tides, etc, it must be seriously doubtful that they can affect how a brain is wired and how events may unfold during the ascribed time period.

However, I do like astrology from the perspective that it is a commonly known methodology which can be used to as metaphors to communicate likeness, disparity and improve self awareness, e.g. I'm a virgo at work, but more like a cancerian at home - Bollocks! Your more like a taurean at home dear...oooh, am I? In what way?

As for horoscopes are concerned, which must be dodgy at best, it can be fun to use them philosophically again for self awareness. I often have fun with my stepfather, when I ask him to read out my horoscope and he makes up his own version, often hilarious but also including a bit of insight/advice for me along the way.