This fucking war!

[Lucas]

I just found out today that a friend of mine was killed in Falluja. Its so surreal. I'd known him since we were in the second grade. We played sports together for over 10 years. I sat next to him in my english class everyday our senior year.....

Its so sad to see a 19 year old, with so much life ahead of him end this way, as a pon in our administration's game. FUCK THEM AND THIS WAR!!!!!!!


-Lucas

[MacGuffin]

I feel sorry for your loss. Especially for his family.

[SheepDog]

I'm sorry every time I hear about someone dying in this "war".

[Birdsnest]

Oh, my heart goes out to you. I am so sorry to hear about the loss of your friend. May he rest in peace. And right before the holidays for his family too. Poor baby, I do send prayers that he is heaven and at peace now. But remember he isn't really gone. He can hear you, and his soul will always be, so if you say something in closure to him, he will hear it and appreciate it. So sorry.

[booyalab]

I'm sorry to hear about your friend.

He wasn't trained for combat against his will though....since there's no draft, so if he read the fine print he should have known that he could potentially die in war.

I know it's pointless to tell you this since you're understandably thinking with your heart right now. I don't really want to argue with you on this precisely because your post was based mostly on your feelings....and I like to have calm discussions. I just wanted to give the other side.

[SheepDog]

I won't speak for Lucas here, but it seems likely to me that this particular war is a deviation from the ideals that many people signed up for. Defending and serving the country is one thing. There's more than a little evidence that this war was fought for reasons other than that.

[mgb]

I'm sorry to hear about your friend.

He wasn't trained for combat against his will though....since there's no draft, so if he read the fine print he should have known that he could potentially die in war.

I know it's pointless to tell you this since you're understandably thinking with your heart right now. I don't really want to argue with you on this precisely because your post was based mostly on your feelings....and I like to have calm discussions. I just wanted to give the other side.

Sorry to hear about your friend, that sucks.

And he probably didn't read the fine print because the "eager" army recruiters weren't so eager to show it to him. When he signed up he probably thought he would be fighting terrorists and helping his country and not bombing the hell out of entire towns fighting people that are fighting for their country against the new oppressive regime in town.

Its pretty hard to defend the death of a 19 year old over a war fought to protect and steal a country's oil supply.

[Groty]

I've been keeping myself from responding to this thread. I have friends over there myself. They aren't on the front lines, but they are also sacrificing many things because of this so-called "war". One of them has a 3 year old daughter, that he has been with maybe 6 months of her life. He's got a new son due any day now.

I can not say that I know how you feel you right now. I can only suggest that you think about all of the great times you had together, the lessons you learned together growing up, and the fun times. Celebrate his life. Be happy and honored that you were friends with such a person. Memories are all we really have anyway. He is part of who you are now, so he's not really gone.

[Avengardh]

Life is a part of death, since the moment you are born you are given that gift.

Now, when people die for something they believe in completely, I commend them. But if you don't...then that is truly something sad to see.
I like to think of death as simply another step after life...I offer you my condolences although I am not too sure if they will help you at this time.

People don't really know what they have until it is lost...there will be many injured and coming back more than injured mentally.
But hopefully, like everything in life, this too will also come to an end.

[Johnny]

I am sorry for your loss too, Lucas.

[indie]

Life isn't the opposite of death. Birth is the opposite of death. Life has no opposite.

Sorry to hear about your friend. I was reading the newspaper last week and saw the many, many casualties of the war in a sidebar. . . listed were their names, hometowns, wife and children. There were dozens like your friend, just in that week. All of them young 18-28 year old guys. It's so goddamn sad that Bush has destroyed so many lives just so he can keep his oil drilling buddies happy.

[Clara]

So sorry, Lucas :(

I hope you're close enough that you can visit his family... or attend the funeral, or afterward...

[jimkopelli]

Wow, that sucks... if I may ask, which branch was he in?

[Lucas]

I won't speak for Lucas here, but it seems likely to me that this particular war is a deviation from the ideals that many people signed up for. Defending and serving the country is one thing. There's more than a little evidence that this war was fought for reasons other than that.

Exactly. They're all under orders that they have to carry out.

He saw the people in Iraq as fellow humans being held down under a brutal dictator, and wanted to help. While I don't agree that this war is helping them, he approached it in a very altruistic way.

If it were a car crash or something like that, it would be easier to accept because....life happens. But, if it wasn't for our neoconservative war hawk administration he'd be alive.

Booya, of course he put himself at risk by going, that is obvious to everyone. So why even say something like that? What a cynical thing to say.

Jimkopelli, he was in the marines.

Thanks for all the nice posts.

-Lucas

[sbw]

I don't think booya's comment was cynical, just perhaps a bit insensitive given the circumstance. while she is correct (in a limited sense), I agree with those of you who point out that this war is purely optional, and registrants generally think of it as combat only potentially occurring out of necessity. Lucas, I'm sorry for your loss, and those of everyone else in america going through a similar situation. My brother is in the navy, he's nowhere near combat right now, but what if we go to iran, and/or north korea, and/or sudan, and/or...you get the idea. We don't have enough troops for this neo-con agenda. And there won't be a draft because even the pentagon doesn't want one (they end up with a shitty army, and they know it). therefore, reservists and those in regular enlistment and not-yet-in-combat will be the victims of future wars. It sucks, and again Lucas, I'm sorry for your loss.

Scott

[Arioch]

One wonders what poets will say of this war in a decade or two.
I think that it would leave a bitter taste

[sbw]

especially since all the vietnam-era cultural artifacts were so resoundingly positive.

Scott

[Lucas]

Look at the faces on this site:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/world/iraq/casualties/facesofthefallen.htm

How can you justify and write off their deaths because, "hey, they signed up for it" There is so much more to it than that.



CYNICAL: (one definition out of my dictionary) having a sneering disbelief in e.g. selflessness of others

[mgb]

Look at the faces on this site:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/world/iraq/casualties/facesofthefallen.htm

How can you justify and write off their deaths because, "hey, they signed up for it" There is so much more to it than that.



CYNICAL: (one definition out of my dictionary) having a sneering disbelief in e.g. selflessness of others

I don't see Booyalab jumping in here because you are getting understandably emotional.

Although I don't think the war is right, I would have to say that altruism can never come from the barrel of a gun. Your friend was never in a position to help people, he was a soldier in a hostile land. He chose the path that led to his death, he put himself on the chessboard. In a way that makes it even sadder.

Booyalab wasn't being cynical, just giving another side, and it is out there. I don't think she has a sneering disbelief in the selfishness of your friend. Just a belief that there are two sides to every story and that both need to be told.

[Dman]

Yes, our soldiers willingly signed up under the notion that they may have to fight in a war and risk death.

However:

For one thing, many recruits sign up because it is the most promising avenue for their future. Even though they risk being killed, they often come from a poor, at-risk background and do not have the same level of opportunity as many others. They desire to choose a noble path and be respectable citizens rather than cop-out to a dreary existence.

The other aspect of it is that they trust that our nation's leaders will make the best decisions and the right decisions if and when it comes to war. They believe that if they do have to risk their lives for our country, it will be for a righteous cause and the soldiers themselves will truly believe that they are making the world a better place, possibly with their own lives.

Our soldiers deserve our support and respect, even if we do not support or respect our leaders.

[Lucas]

I would have to say that altruism can never come from the barrel of a gun. Your friend was never in a position to help people, he was a soldier in a hostile land.

(Damn I feel like webster)
Altruism- The quality of unselfish concern for the welfare of others

So, troops in WWII putting their lives on the line to save Europeans, and the rest of the jewish people weren't being altruistic? Sometimes in our political worlds, the barrel of the gun is the only way to help. Maybe our troops aren't helping them, but many of them believe they are, which is an altruistic intention.

Still seems cynical to me.

[mgb]

(Damn I feel like webster)
Altruism- The quality of unselfish concern for the welfare of others

So, troops in WWII putting their lives on the line to save Europeans, and the rest of the jewish people weren't being altruistic? Sometimes in our political worlds, the barrel of the gun is the only way to help. Maybe our troops aren't helping them, but many of them believe they are, which is an altruistic intention.

Still seems cynical to me.

If the US was truly being "altruistic" in WWII they would have gone in before Japan attacked them and Germany declared war against the US. Your involvment in that conflict came after many thousands had already died and don't think for a second that anyone was there to save the Jews. Altruism is not revenge.

In the case of Iraq I think you may be confusing altruism with naivete.

[Lucas]

If the US was truly being "altruistic" in WWII they would have gone in before Japan attacked them and Germany declared war against the US. Your involvment in that conflict came after many thousands had already died and don't think for a second that anyone was there to save the Jews. Altruism is not revenge.

In the case of Iraq I think you may be confusing altruism with naivete.


Thank you, your post highlights the definition of cynical perfectly, 1. Believing the worst of human nature and motives; having a sneering disbelief in e.g. selflessness of others

[mgb]

Thank you, your post highlights the definition of cynical perfectly, 1. Believing the worst of human nature and motives; having a sneering disbelief in e.g. selflessness of others

You being factually incorrect doesn't make me a cynic.

[Lucas]

I bow to thee, O, historically accurate one.

[Division56]

I am locking this thread.

This isn't the time or place for debate. If you want to, someone can open a specifically purposed debate thread in the Flamethrower.