Fatherhood

[Aryan]

Like the motherhood thread
http://www.intpcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=715

Just curious about INTP males ?

Personally, i think i am eager for it.

[SheepDog]

I can't wait to meet my son (due in March). I'm very enthusiastic about trying to be prepared (mentally) as much as I can. My wife's keeping up with my deficiencies regarding the more logistical things (like picking out a crib).

I am sympathetic toward my wife as her body goes through the process. Since I cannot bear the child myself, I feel a bit of guilt about it. I am trying to take up the slack in other ways, to make her burden less. I've bought her "pregnancy pillows" and have taken on more of the household tasks that we used to share. This is an effort for me, but I'm very motivated to do this.

I know my child and I will have a great bond, but I admit that I'm a bit envious of the bond between mother and child. I think it's wonderful, and I can't wait to see my son and my wife together. I hope to have something close to the bond that I imagine between them, and will work to make sure they both know of my love for them.

Just some thoughts.

[INTrPosr]

I am a father of four, so if you have questions let me know. Contrary to what anyone thinks it does change your life forever.

[synchronous]

I think you will enjoy the fascinating journey - watching your child/children learn and develop. Sheep Dog, I hope you will continue sharing the details of your experience with your soon to- be-born son.

[athman]

I highly recommend it. We've got 2 kids. I read on the motherhood thread about people's concerns re relating and establishing emotional bonds. As INTrPosr says, it does change your life forever. The rules are different when you have your own kids, you relate differently and are waaaaay much more accomodating. I have better conversations with my 10 yr old son than I can with most other people.
INTP's can make good parents, they are good at helping children explore their potential.

[INTrPosr]

I highly recommend it. We've got 2 kids. I read on the motherhood thread about people's concerns re relating and establishing emotional bonds. As INTrPosr says, it does change your life forever. The rules are different when you have your own kids, you relate differently and are waaaaay much more accomodating. I have better conversations with my 10 yr old son than I can with most other people. INTP's can make good parents, they are good at helping children explore their potential.
Ditto to the whole statement by Athman. If I had to say that I have best friends, it would be my oldest (son) who is 20 and my youngest (daughter) who is 9. Without verbalizing it, all of my children support me unconditionally and help me in staying positive.

Jack

[songbird36]

Parenthood (and the feelings associated with it) is largely an experiential thing. It's not really something you can successfully theorise about, or imagine how you are going to feel when it happens. I was saddened by the discussion thread here where a lot of people said they couldn't imagine themselves ever developing feelings for a child, or being able to mother a child successfully. I remember feeling like that before I had kids, and then being surprised and delighted at the depth of feeling I did develop for my children, and the mothering abilities I discovered in myself in the process.

The practical side of parenting is I think largely a set of learned skills (which aren't naturally bestowed on us from on high), and the emotional bond develops naturally and gradually as the child develops and we form a multi dimensional relationship with them. Any personality type can do it successfully - it's just that the areas of challenge are different for the different types.

I have a successful well paid career - but being a parent is far and away the most rewarding and satisfying thing I've ever done.

And fathers are INCREDIBLY important in a child's life - don't let anyone tell you otherwise!

[Zero Angel]

I also am eager for fatherhood. I lived with my sister when she had her daughter (until she was age 4), and I liked spending time with her, I really liked that I was able to shape her too, I was able to be very loving but also to discipline her well and reasonably, and spend time and play with her. To this day she is always glad to see me and usually very helpful and intelligent. . Sometimes I wish she was my daughter.

[Aryan]

I can't wait to meet my son (due in March). I'm very enthusiastic about trying to be prepared (mentally) as much as I can. My wife's keeping up with my deficiencies regarding the more logistical things (like picking out a crib).

I am sympathetic toward my wife as her body goes through the process. Since I cannot bear the child myself, I feel a bit of guilt about it. I am trying to take up the slack in other ways, to make her burden less. I've bought her "pregnancy pillows" and have taken on more of the household tasks that we used to share. This is an effort for me, but I'm very motivated to do this.

I know my child and I will have a great bond, but I admit that I'm a bit envious of the bond between mother and child. I think it's wonderful, and I can't wait to see my son and my wife together. I hope to have something close to the bond that I imagine between them, and will work to make sure they both know of my love for them.

Just some thoughts.


Congratulations, lol

U know when i fantasize these things ( heh :thumbdow: i am a virgin ) i also become a bit envious of the bond between mother and child.
Like i myself love my mother more, i think the same about any child, that he or she is more bonded towards the mother.
But i think it doesnt bother me so much.

[Clara]

For the future fathers, to celebrate the "desegregation" of this thread (and because several of you, writing so eloquently in this thread, inspired this post) here are two things that you already know (that are useful to repeat):

For a new mother, one of the sweetest messages is, "Stay here and sleep a few more minutes, I'll bring the baby to you." Love, multiplied (her, her baby, your baby, your family, and your own "selfish" joy - hearts follow a different kind of math).

And, in the week before my child was born, I knew as much and as little as any of you. And, several nights, in the moments of falling asleep, I experienced again the feeling of being held by my father, as a baby. It was different and stronger than memory, or emotion. Encompassed by this loving, benevolent giant, not my mother, I knew that everything was right. And if you didn't have this with your father, you will be able to experience it (hearts, remember, different rules) with your child.

:mellow:

[Aryan]

I think if u leave the pains ^.^ being a mother is more fun than being a father.
The bonding is really very close then.
Just an opinion.

But i am comfortable with what i am.

[Clara]

Edit : everyone reads all the descriptions of INTPs - I think that there are people here who can write about this particular topic more eloquently that any of the "other" sources...

I'm bumping this thread in hope that those of you who have experienced the (admit it, life changing step) role of fatherhood might consider posting some thoughts -
- because... those of you who are, can speak from experience (the rest of us have knowledge, maybe even understanding, gained from hearsay - which is not the same). I suspect there's more still to be said on your fathering roles.

[tragula]

Fatherhood is the absolute best! I had deep complicated theories about the meaning of life before I became a father, and they quickly went right out the window, replaced by real meaning.
I don't think fatherhood comes in second to motherhood in any way. And don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Many men bond more strongly with their kids then their wives ever will (I'm not saying that's necesarily true in our case.) This is more and more true as men make fewer assumptions about taking a back seat in their children's lives.

[euterpenc]

I can't wait :D. I'm definately not prepared yet but I'm so excited. Bringing a new life and raising it to be more than myself is so exciting and like a gift to the world for me. OH man I can't wait.

[QrioCT]

Fatherhood is the absolute best! I had deep complicated theories about the meaning of life before I became a father, and they quickly went right out the window, replaced by real meaning.


thats what my dad says. i told my dad that i dont want to get married and then he said that im missing out on the point of life. he's an INTP, very cool and intelligent. i don't agree at this point, but i cant really judge because i dont understand what its like. and i will never for obvious reasons(im a girl:).

[jjt]

I'm adding my bit here even though I'm not a father. I'm a mother but come from a different perspective because I am the mother to two adopted children, 6 and 8. We adopted them 3 years ago from Russia. With regards to bonding - I cannot imagine being more strongly bonded to a child than I am to my two little ones even if they had come from my own body and even if I had adopted them as babies not as young children. I am as crazy about my kids as any other mother that has bonded to her own flesh and blood. My husband too has the most amazingly strong bond with our children, I don't see his bond as being less or more than mine.

It's hard to put into words what it is like to have a bond with children, certainly before I had kids I could not have imagined the strength of the relationship. Some have said that a father's bond is not as strong as a mothers, I do not believe for a minute that this is true. The bond comes from the relationship that you have with your kids, not whether they come out of your tummy or not.

Also I cannot imagine not sharing this incredible experience of being a parent with another person. I love being in this together with my husband, dads are so important. Just now I can hear my husband in the background explaining the methods of Roman warfare to my 6 year old son - frankly I'm just not interested in war, but my son is fascinated, imagine not having a father to do that!

[cajun]

I'm a single dad of two little ones. I was very eager to become a father, and then my marriage dissolved, and I had to fight for custody if I wanted to live in the same state as them. I would have fought anyway, just cuz I love them, and see it as my duty to raise them.

My son seems to be an extrovert, so it is easy to pour out love on him. My daughter is much more introverted, so I really have to push to show her the same amount of affection. I'm very sensitive to trying to not favor one over the other.

[Edmond Zedo]

Kids...I would leave it up to my hypothetical future wife, as I don't have that emotional need for them. I would take the responsibility very seriously, and would like to be over 30 before I have any.

[jjt]

I think that parenthood is a personal choice. Either you want them or you don't want them. I don't like when other people try to convince others who don't want them to have them...
I disagree when you say that you cannot theorize about it or predict how its going to be... If you know yourself, you can predict how youre going to react. I agree that it's harder to predict how you will "feel", but I think you can predict how your body is going to respond to the responsibilities of parenthood... I predict that I'll be tired all the time if I become a mother, and I won't have enough time for myself... You just to observe people who have children to notice that!
I don't think (well I hope not) that parenthood is the only way to give a meaning to your life or make you happy.

I agree with this to some extent. I never wanted kids, never even wanted a husband in fact - then some time in my mid thirties, I changed my tune. I certainly never wanted to bother with kids until then.

Cant even say what changed, just timing maybe, or just something I decided I wanted to do finally. Anyway I finally got married at 41 and adopted kids at 42. And it wasn't to add some missing meaning, just something we wanted.

And even though having kids intrudes on my time, and - it is tiring, especially with two high energy extraverts, its an awesome thing to experience. I don't for a minute regret it - but then I was ready.

[wezl]

If there's a down side to fatherhood, its worrying about the kids. E.g., my son is in Bagdad with the 1st Cav. Its a little like someone squeezing you so you can't take a deep breath. He'll be back in March, then I'll breathe again.

[int]

I can't believe I missed this thread before.

Our first is due any day now. My wife is pretty sick of being pregnant, but both of us have a sense of humour about it so that seems to make things better.

The mental shift has really been enlightening. My priorities are a lot clearer. I feel like the process has put me more in touch with myself.

Within our first year of marriage, my wife's period was late and we thought she might be pregnant. It really put things into perspective. It turns out she wasn't, but it at least made us consider what we would do if she was pregnant. We'd be parents, and we were OK with that.

So when we actually started trying last year we just had fun with it. :)

After "The Big Scare of 2002" I can't even imagine waiting until later, like I used to. We're only going to lose energy later, so might as well get that part over with while we've got it. :)

[athman]

Best wishes. The only comments I can make sound as trite as something you would see written on a fridge magnet ... e.g. 'your life will never be the same again' ... 'your values will change overnight' etc, etc. Oh, and say goodbye to uninterrupted thought patterns for the next 20 years. But is is one of life's great experiences and I wish you and your wife well on the journey.

Hey, you could start a name the baby thread.8O

[int]

We did a guess the sex thread a few months ago. Doc said 90% chance it's a female.

I thought about the name thread a while back, but I got frustrated when my family started emailing suggestions and preferences - let alone strangers. I don't know why I made it so personal. But at least the name we chose is a name of my choosing. :)

[songbird36]

It is by far the best thing you will ever do.

Having kids is the ultimate act of creativity..

[Miss Anthropic]

Don't underestimate the bond of a father and baby....For that close bond all you have to do is invest love and time. My daughter was from day one (and still is 13 years later) a daddy's girl. I have a great relationship with her and love being her mom, but there is a very special bond she shares with her dad and it is all because of the time and attention he has given to her.

As for names, you are right. It is best not to share any of them because you will always hear why somebody doesn't like one or another.

Congratulations in advance to both int and sheepdog!

[int]

Well the doc ruptured some of the membranes (intentionally) this morning, to get things started. Assuming she's ready.

Could be any day now. :D

[songbird36]

wow-that's so exciting for you!

[tragula]

The following parenting books are really great:

The Sears Baby Book (Dr. Sears)
The Thinking Woman's Guide to Birth (Henci Goer)
Three in a Bed (Deborah Jackson)
Playfull Parenting (Lawrence Cohen)

[Nighthawk]

I guess I'll be the only negative poster here. For me, fatherhood is a mixed bag. My 21-year-old INTP son is a Godsend and my sanity. We got along well from the start and we are each other's sounding boards. In public and among family, we often nod at each other with that "the SJs and SPs just don't get it" look. We share similar interests and similar points of view. I am very thankful he is around. We have a very close bond.

My 22-year-old ESFP daughter has been nothing but a royal pain in the butt from day one. Manipulative, deceitful, thieving, and opportunistic ... she brought us to the brink of financial ruin and divorce. She invited thugs and hoodlums into our home and had promiscuous relationships with the same. One of her "friends" is in jail for a quadruple homicide and two more are incarcerated for running a drug ring. Kids will bring the kinds people you have tried to avoid your entire life right into your living room. Needless to say, I was overjoyed when she moved out at age 18 and immediately changed all the locks. She has realized now, after living in poverty for 3 years and getting a criminal record herself, that maybe dad was right about the kinds of people she associated with. I'm still not sure if I want her in my life. I don't want the gangsta clan breaking into my house one night.

Both kids grew up in the same household under the same conditions. Amazing how different they turned out.

[t]

maybe i can add some insight (though i am female). my father's intp. my father and i have never had a typical father & daughter relationship and i had problems relating to him when i was younger. he just didn't seem to know how to relate to a child so he was pretty standoffish with us. the older i got and the more my personality developed, i suppose, the closer we got & any resentment i had towards his lack of involvement in my life faded. i think a lot of the resentment stemmed from the fact that i never felt like he cared much about me, when in actuality he loves me with all his heart - he just doesn't always show it. the reason i understand that now is because i am the same way with my emotions. we never have and never will have an affectionate & warm relationship, as some children typically have with their parents, but now we can talk for hours on the phone or on long hikes through the woods about anything and everything. these conversations help me to bond with my father on the same level as him, instead of on a smaller level because i am his daughter. i am very grateful for my relationship with him and to me, it is more satisfying than a typical father & daughter relationship because i prefer to bond intellectually than emotionally.

i find that i am constantly defending my father to my mother & my brother. i feel he gets a bad rap because both my mother & my brother expect my father to be someone he is not. since my brother and my mom are both very feeling oriented, they expect my father to be more emotional and responsive. they hate that he plays the devil's advocate and deals with problems from a more detached position. my brother and my father have recently began bonding by doing neutral activities like building a shed together. this is a huge step for the two of them and i've noticed that my brother is all around happier now that he feels he is somewhat bonding with my dad.

anyway, i'm not sure if any of this helps. i guess what bothered me the most about my father when i was a child was that i felt that he didn't want much to do with us and that he was cold. once i figured out that he just didn't know how to relate with us, our relationship improved 100%.

[Clara]

Hmmm. It's maybe harder to be an involved kind of father (INTP-ishly) of young kids in a cultural group (or family circle) that doesn't favour INTP-ish kinds of father-kid bonding... Or if the father, himself thinks that he's superfluous, in daily interactions with his youngsters... (Even very young children like walking somewhere with their dad, e.g. - or "helping to do things.")

[Nighthawk]

Thank you for the new perspective, t. I can only hope that perhaps my daughter and I will patch things up as adults. It is still a bit too soon for me however ... although she seems to want it. She says over and over again that she never really appreciated her father until she "lost" him. My pragmatic side only sees it as her wanting access to our finances again. She stole about $16,000 from us with checks forged in her mom's name. My wife refused to press charges, although I wanted to ... logical consequences of actions. That was a common thread the entire time she was growing up. I would try to hold her accountable for her actions (stealing, lying, drugs, wrecking the car, etc.), and then her mother would "fix" things behind my back. The girl was never held accountable for anything she did. My wife and I argued a lot about it and came to the brink of divorce.

When daughter became an adult, mom could not fix things anymore and she wound up on probation for theft by check. (She'd played the forgery game with other people too.) When she felt her world collapsing (i.e. no more free money), she said it was now her goal in life to break apart my wife and me ... since I was the cause of her downfall. (i.e. I was the only one who called her on her actions.) My wife has since seen the error of "fixing" things for children ... but its a little too late now.

For me, parenthood was pure hell and I am glad my children are grown. I am a bit jealous when I see people who have "good" kids. I never expected to have a "bad" kid and I was as conscientious a parent as I could be. Perhaps my NT-ness was too alien for my SP daughter to feel close to. It is ironic that Keirsey, in his book Please Understand Me II, states that NTs make the best parents for SPs because they hold the children accountable for their actions. Prophetic words indeed.

[int]

Both kids grew up in the same household under the same conditions. Amazing how different they turned out.


Out of curiosity, did you parent both children the same? Meaning, did they have similiar rules (like curfews, chores, etc.) applied to both of them or was each kid treated differently (because of their differing personalities).

I have no idea as I've heard both ways can work, and we still have time before we try for our second kid, but I've been wondering this for some time now.

Of course, the question is asked of anyone that can help, not just Nighthawk. :)

[garak]

Nighthawk, your posts have reminded me of the "blame" issue I have with my own dad. He's and SJ and we had constant problems due to my slacking in school and whatnot. It finally reached a climax when I ran away at 17, and I've only talked to him a few times since (21 now). At those times he seemed very "sorry" and wanted to make amends and whatnot, but I left because of my principles .. and it's hard to forgive people about breaking fundamental principles. After all, he's still the same guy, for the most part.

But back to the blame issue -- all throughout growing up he'd accuse me of shirking blame, of course all the while denying any fault of his own. It was very confusing and I still don't really understand it, but in recent years I came up with a certain "philosophy" about it if you will. Basically I do deny responsibility for the majority of my problems. He brought me into the world, he raised me from a crying pooping mini-human to a young adult -- how could he blame my problems on me? What did I do other than just behave in a manner that was natural to me? But the problem is, where does the buck stop? Are my problems his fault? Well after all, he was raised by someone too. He didn't teach himself everything he knows. It's confusing as to who is really to blame. Personally I think that up to the age of 18, it is the parents' responsibility to raise a successful kid. How can you rightfully blame a child for their own problems? Did they ask to be born or raised that way? But of course, once you turn 18 and become an adult, you need to accept your situation and make the best of it. Any failure from then on is not necessarily your fault, but it IS your problem. So accepting responsibility for yourself is the best thing to do.

I guess.

[Edmond Zedo]

Having kids is the ultimate act of creativity..
Having kids is so inside the box. Sure, sometimes they're great, but it gets on my nerves more than a little when the gazillion people who have them every year think their child's birth is the MOST IMPORTANT THING EVER. Be objective, folks.

[songbird36]

Having kids is so inside the box. Sure, sometimes they're great, but it gets on my nerves more than a little when the gazillion people who have them every year think their child's birth is the MOST IMPORTANT THING EVER. Be objective, folks.

I see you've lined up alongside the worst pseudo-cynical, shrivelled and soul-less inhabitants of this forum. How very easy and comfortable for you. How very "inside the square". How empty.

Try some life experience. It works a lot better than words...

[int]

Having kids is so inside the box. Sure, sometimes they're great, but it gets on my nerves more than a little when the gazillion people who have them every year think their child's birth is the MOST IMPORTANT THING EVER. Be objective, folks.

See my point on perspective change.

On another day, I would have agreed though. :mellow:

[Edmond Zedo]

I see you've lined up alongside the worst pseudo-cynical, shrivelled and soul-less inhabitants of this forum. How very easy and comfortable for you. How very "inside the square". How empty.

Try some life experience. It works a lot better than words...
So you know what I'm talking about then?

[booyalab]

Having kids is so inside the box. Sure, sometimes they're great, but it gets on my nerves more than a little when the gazillion people who have them every year think their child's birth is the MOST IMPORTANT THING EVER. Be objective, folks.

Objectively speaking, would you consider a painting someone created greater than a human being? There's nothing objective about that comparison. You're the one who's wrong.

[Edmond Zedo]

Depends on the child, I'd have to say, as we come and go, but our truly unique creations last generations. Anyone can have a child, but only geniuses create masterworks.

Now, if I have a kid, will I care for him/her or love him/her less than I would anything material? Most certainly not.

[songbird36]

What infuriates me is that you seem to give yourself licence to pour scorn on things that you have absolutely no personal experience of. That is forgivable. What isn't forgivable, is that you seem to lack the imagination to be able to understand what an incredibly satisfying and fulfilling experience having and raising children can be (and is) for those who have done it, or to concede that your imagination may be deficient in that respect.

I don't know anyone who presents the birth of their own child as the best thing for humanity at large. I do know people (myself included) who regard it as the best thing *they've* ever achieved. There is a big difference.

[booyalab]

Depends on the child, I'd have to say, as we come and go, but our truly unique creations last generations. Anyone can have a child, but only geniuses create masterworks.

Now, if I have a kid, will I care for him/her or love him/her less than I would anything material? Most certainly not.

Songbird was saying that in a general sense, the fact and the act of giving birth to any given human being is the most creative (as in...original..special..in and of itself) thing that can be done by mere people. She wasn't saying that her particular children are unquestionably the best in the world, and she didn't even phrase it in such a way that it would make sense for someone to interpret it like that.

[Nighthawk]

Out of curiosity, did you parent both children the same? Meaning, did they have similiar rules (like curfews, chores, etc.) applied to both of them or was each kid treated differently (because of their differing personalities).

I have no idea as I've heard both ways can work, and we still have time before we try for our second kid, but I've been wondering this for some time now.

Of course, the question is asked of anyone that can help, not just Nighthawk. :)That's I tough one. All I can say is that I tried to parent both of them the same. Whether I succeeded is open for debate. I'm a big stickler for fairness, so whatever applied to one child also applied to the other (chores, curfews, etc.) I certainly bonded more with my son because he is a fellow INTP. I know my wife bonded more with our daughter. Bonding more with my son undoubtedly gave him preference in some way. On the other hand, I invested more time and energy into my daughter. She is an Artisan, and they love playing the blackmail game variant of "inappropriate actions" when things are not right with them or they want attention. That is very time intensive for a parent. I actually interacted with her more than with my son, who was on auto-pilot most of the time. I'm not sure it was the right kind of interaction, however.

Then there was also the issue of my wife covering for her a lot. She knew both parents were at odds over how to raise the kids and exploited that to her advantage. My son, on the other hand, mostly did what I told him. That might have irritated my wife. From my perspective, parents need to present a united front or it will be detrimental for the children.

The bottom line is that I do feel personally responsible for the failures she's had and I don't consider myself to have been a good parent with respect to her. I have a lot of first hand experience in many parenting mistakes that can be made ... from both the perspective of the child and the parent.

[Edmond Zedo]

Songbird was saying that in a general sense, the fact and the act of giving birth to any given human being is the most creative (as in...original..special..in and of itself) thing that can be done by mere people.
But it is unoriginal. I just wish people would be less excited by it than, say, a mission to mars. That's new and original.

Normal person: "Omg you had a kid aaaaaaa!"
Normal person: "Oh, we landed on Mars. Huh!"

[Nighthawk]

Personally I think that up to the age of 18, it is the parents' responsibility to raise a successful kid. How can you rightfully blame a child for their own problems? Did they ask to be born or raised that way? But of course, once you turn 18 and become an adult, you need to accept your situation and make the best of it. Any failure from then on is not necessarily your fault, but it IS your problem. So accepting responsibility for yourself is the best thing to do.

That's the real rub ... blame and responsibilty. It becomes difficult when the kids start becoming more "adult" around age 13-14. They want to do more things that entail personal responsibility, yet society still holds the parents responsible. When your child breaks the law, the county sheriff will come looking for you at the door ... not your child. That happened to me on more than one occasion. When your child plows into somebody else's car or house, then the owners come looking for you for restitution. That has also happened to me on more than one occasion.

When I was the child, I saw my parents as uptight control freaks who would not give me any liberty. One of my parents was also an SJ and I viewed her as being totally unreasonable. When I became a parent, I saw my children as hormone drenched psychopath's whom I could not control, but for whom I was personally responsible. I breathed a big sigh of relief when both turned 18. Amazingly, they straightened up rather quickly when they realized they were now accountable for their own actions. I wish there was some way that I could have influenced that when they were 14. Today's American society gives the parent's precious little control over their teenagers, yet holds them accountable for all their actions. That was one of the most difficult situations in which I ever found myself.

[booyalab]

But it is unoriginal. I just wish people would be less excited by it than, say, a mission to mars. That's new and original.

Normal person: "Omg you had a kid aaaaaaa!"
Normal person: "Oh, we landed on Mars. Huh!"

It's original for that person, and by your logic maybe instead of having you, your mom should have gone to mars.

[Edmond Zedo]

Nah, my mom's a normal person.

[songbird36]

But it is unoriginal. I just wish people would be less excited by it than, say, a mission to mars. That's new and original.

Normal person: "Omg you had a kid aaaaaaa!"
Normal person: "Oh, we landed on Mars. Huh!"

Experiences do not have to be original to be incredibly creative, fulfilling and emotionally satisfying.

I don't get as excited about the birth of other peoples' children as I do (or did) about my own - that is natural. No-one's expecting you to be excited about the birth of *their* child - but when you have your own, you will know exactly what I am talking about here.

[jjt]

That's I tough one. All I can say is that I tried to parent both of them the same. Whether I succeeded is open for debate. I'm a big stickler for fairness, so whatever applied to one child also applied to the other (chores, curfews, etc.) I certainly bonded more with my son because he is a fellow INTP. I know my wife bonded more with our daughter. Bonding more with my son undoubtedly gave him preference in some way. On the other hand, I invested more time and energy into my daughter. She is an Artisan, and they love playing the blackmail game variant of "inappropriate actions" when things are not right with them or they want attention. That is very time intensive for a parent. I actually interacted with her more than with my son, who was on auto-pilot most of the time. I'm not sure it was the right kind of interaction, however.

Then there was also the issue of my wife covering for her a lot. She knew both parents were at odds over how to raise the kids and exploited that to her advantage. My son, on the other hand, mostly did what I told him. That might have irritated my wife. From my perspective, parents need to present a united front or it will be detrimental for the children.

The bottom line is that I do feel personally responsible for the failures she's had and I don't consider myself to have been a good parent with respect to her. I have a lot of first hand experience in many parenting mistakes that can be made ... from both the perspective of the child and the parent.

I feel for you, as a mum of diffcult though much younger children, I agree with your should have dones. My husband and I always discuss parenting options and we both operate the same way in our discipline and parenting. We try all sorts of things to deal with our children's behaviour, but always as a team.

A book I have found very valuable is Parenting with Love and Logic. I highly recommend it. by Foster Cline and Jim Fay. the premise is really great and we have started puttin into practice in our house.

[songbird36]

As a parent of two boys who are of wildly different MB types (one an INTJ like me or INTP and the other probably an ESFJ) I think it is particularly challenging to parent a child of the *same* type as yourself.

I would have imagined it to be the opposite - however my older son who is the INTJ is by far the more difficult of the two to manage and parent. He has more behavioural problems, more anxiety, more frustration, and needs far more attention from me than the other one. There is a lot more friction between the two us than between myself and my younger son, who is diametrically opposed to me in personality type.

Wonder if anyone can relate to this?

[garak]

But it is unoriginal. I just wish people would be less excited by it than, say, a mission to mars. That's new and original.

Normal person: "Omg you had a kid aaaaaaa!"
Normal person: "Oh, we landed on Mars. Huh!"
Don't be such an elitist ass. I think almost EVERY person would consider the birth of their own child to be much more significant than landing on Mars. Not just those inferior "normal people." And in any case, they're not really comparable anyways. One is a landmark event for the entire human species -- which while very cool, doesn't directly affect most people in any significant way. The other is a very special personal event in an individual's life -- extremely important to that individual, but insignificant to the world at large.

[Edmond Zedo]

I'll let you know. I'll say "Hey, I had a kid, it was pretty cool. Now I'm going to teach him/her how to do stuff, and you know, like feed him/her." I'm sure I won't go nuts-up over it.

[jjt]

I'll let you know. I'll say "Hey, I had a kid, it was pretty cool. Now I'm going to teach him/her how to do stuff, and you know, like feed him/her." I'm sure I won't go nuts-up over it.

Are you just stirring or are you for real? You should listen to people who've been there and done it - 'cause your opinion is so not real life!

[Nighthawk]

As a parent of two boys who are of wildly different MB types (one an INTJ like me or INTP and the other probably an ESFJ) I think it is particularly challenging to parent a child of the *same* type as yourself.

I would have imagined it to be the opposite - however my older son who is the INTJ is by far the more difficult of the two to manage and parent. He has more behavioural problems, more anxiety, more frustration, and needs far more attention from me than the other one. There is a lot more friction between the two us than between myself and my younger son, who is diametrically opposed to me in personality type.

Wonder if anyone can relate to this?It was the opposite for me. I bonded very well with my INTP son, but had a very rough time with my ESFP daughter. Her Artisan implusive, risk-taking behavior was a challenge when she was young (broken bones, broken windows, etc) ... but it really put us through hell when she became a teenager (promiscuity, drugs, fights, theft, car wrecks, etc). I was very thankful to have my son around, as we could connect in an NT way whenever things became too much in the concrete world for either of us. I have to admit however, that our bond deepened after he became a teenager. It wasn't as deep during his childhood.

[Nighthawk]

I'll let you know. I'll say "Hey, I had a kid, it was pretty cool. Now I'm going to teach him/her how to do stuff, and you know, like feed him/her." I'm sure I won't go nuts-up over it.I shared your sentiments when I was single and childless. Could never figure out why people went ape over a tiny, squalling human being. My children's births, although fascinating, were not enlightening experiences for me. After all, the only creative moment I had was a moment of whoopee. I can understand however, that a woman feels much more in tune with the process of creating a life, since she carries that life from conception. I cannot even pretend to comprehend what a woman experiences.

What affected me far more was the process of raising the children. It was the most difficult thing I have ever done in my life. I was very struck by the enormity of responsiblity and constantly being "on the job." Being a parent is arguably one of the greatest impacts that one person (parent) can ever have on another (child). That, to me, is the great creative process ... and a life-long process at a that.

[spud]

I can't imagine bringing another unwitting, unwilling life into a world filled with cruelty, pain, and rejection. How could I possibly live with myself for being selfish enough to think that I could possibly make a new life as happy and healthy as they deserve.

This post isn't a judgment on anyone else posting here. It is just my own personal twisted logic born out through the culmination of my own negative experiences. In fact it's probably just a misplaced call for help or an outlet for my own depression and frustration. So carry on.

I wouldn't want to continue to impose on or divert what has been a somewhat pleasant thread so far. I'm sorry.

[Miss Anthropic]

I'll let you know. I'll say "Hey, I had a kid, it was pretty cool. Now I'm going to teach him/her how to do stuff, and you know, like feed him/her." I'm sure I won't go nuts-up over it.
On the contrary, you will probably be one of the worst "nuts-up" over it dads. The ones who say "No big deal" are usually caught by surprise and then drive everyone else crazy with their parental enthusiasm......... :D

[Miss Anthropic]

Thank you for the new perspective, t. I can only hope that perhaps my daughter and I will patch things up as adults. It is still a bit too soon for me however ... although she seems to want it. She says over and over again that she never really appreciated her father until she "lost" him. My pragmatic side only sees it as her wanting access to our finances again. She stole about $16,000 from us with checks forged in her mom's name. My wife refused to press charges, although I wanted to ... logical consequences of actions. That was a common thread the entire time she was growing up. I would try to hold her accountable for her actions (stealing, lying, drugs, wrecking the car, etc.), and then her mother would "fix" things behind my back. The girl was never held accountable for anything she did. My wife and I argued a lot about it and came to the brink of divorce.

When daughter became an adult, mom could not fix things anymore and she wound up on probation for theft by check. (She'd played the forgery game with other people too.) When she felt her world collapsing (i.e. no more free money), she said it was now her goal in life to break apart my wife and me ... since I was the cause of her downfall. (i.e. I was the only one who called her on her actions.) My wife has since seen the error of "fixing" things for children ... but its a little too late now.

For me, parenthood was pure hell and I am glad my children are grown. I am a bit jealous when I see people who have "good" kids. I never expected to have a "bad" kid and I was as conscientious a parent as I could be. Perhaps my NT-ness was too alien for my SP daughter to feel close to. It is ironic that Keirsey, in his book Please Understand Me II, states that NTs make the best parents for SPs because they hold the children accountable for their actions. Prophetic words indeed.
I'm sorry your parenting experience was 50% 'less than positive'....but thanks for the evidence supporting nature over nurture....If it were mostly nurture, your kids would have turned out more similarly one way or the other. I like to hear examples like yours where 2 or more kids in one family with the same parents turn out so differently...

[Pierce]

Fatherhood is such an amazing thing, just the word fills me with awe. The pains and joys of it are like a roller coaster and the responsibilities and rewards are at times overwhelming. Parenting for me was like growing up all over again. Watching my children grow up, I began to understand much of my own upbringing, and watching my mom and dad turn into doting grandparents was a thing to behold.

I guess the best way to say it is that having kids made life real to me. One of the dangers our our INTp orientation is the tendency to withdrawl into our inner worlds. Kids have a way of dragging us back into reality -- they don't get, nor do they cooperate with the beautifully ordered visions in our minds. They are constantly annoying and at the same time endearing interrupters of our mental projects. And another odd thing is that their memories and interpretations of their childhoods and my memories of their childhoods are so different. I am so fortunate that they forgave my faults and turned out all right in spite of me it seems. Nowadays, they are never interruptions and I long to hear their voices.

As far as I'm concerned, no technological marvel compares with the miracle of life, not the wonder of consciouness, but the simple, everyday living of life -- and nothing teaches us that as well as children.

[jjt]

Fatherhood is such an amazing thing, just the word fills me with awe. The pains and joys of it are like a roller coaster and the responsibilities and rewards are at times overwhelming. Parenting for me was like growing up all over again. Watching my children grow up, I began to understand much of my own upbringing, and watching my mom and dad turn into doting grandparents was a thing to behold.

I guess the best way to say it is that having kids made life real to me. One of the dangers our our INTp orientation is the tendency to withdrawl into our inner worlds. Kids have a way of dragging us back into reality -- they don't get, nor do they cooperate with the beautifully ordered visions in our minds. They are constantly annoying and at the same time endearing interrupters of our mental projects. And another odd thing is that their memories and interpretations of their childhoods and my memories of their childhoods are so different. I am so fortunate that they forgave my faults and turned out all right in spite of me it seems. Nowadays, they are never interruptions and I long to hear their voices.

As far as I'm concerned, no technological marvel compares with the miracle of life, not the wonder of consciouness, but the simple, everyday living of life -- and nothing teaches us that as well as children.

That is so beautifully said. My children are younger 6 and 8, but you echo my sentiments (even though I'm a mum).
You know I too have learnt so much being a mum. When I hear my kids copying my worst habits, nothing has made me want to change so fast. I see my life reflected in my children, whatever is going on in their behaviour that I don't like - I look at how am am being; in my attitudes and actions and treatment of them that has precipitated this - having kids is a powerful stimulator of growth in my own life. :)

[Clara]

Ah, but it's when they start to explain life/ the world to you, with their unique perceptions... (And when, younger than you would have thought possible, they give you a commiserating, understanding smile... and perhaps ruffle your hair, if you're a physically demonstrative family... that the complexity - and enormity - strikes home.)

Disclaimer : Like jjt, and songbird, I'm obviously a non-paternal-parent, trying, in intruding in this thread, to contribute some of what I believe to cross gender roles. ;)

[Edmond Zedo]

Fatherhood is such an amazing thing, just the word fills me with awe. The pains and joys of it are like a roller coaster and the responsibilities and rewards are at times overwhelming. Parenting for me was like growing up all over again. Watching my children grow up, I began to understand much of my own upbringing, and watching my mom and dad turn into doting grandparents was a thing to behold.

I guess the best way to say it is that having kids made life real to me. One of the dangers our our INTp orientation is the tendency to withdrawl into our inner worlds. Kids have a way of dragging us back into reality -- they don't get, nor do they cooperate with the beautifully ordered visions in our minds. They are constantly annoying and at the same time endearing interrupters of our mental projects. And another odd thing is that their memories and interpretations of their childhoods and my memories of their childhoods are so different. I am so fortunate that they forgave my faults and turned out all right in spite of me it seems. Nowadays, they are never interruptions and I long to hear their voices.

As far as I'm concerned, no technological marvel compares with the miracle of life, not the wonder of consciouness, but the simple, everyday living of life -- and nothing teaches us that as well as children.
You are an F. You always were. You always will be. Unless you're always on morphine, that is.

[Edmond Zedo]

Being a parent is arguably one of the greatest impacts that one person (parent) can ever have on another (child). That, to me, is the great creative process ... and a life-long process at a that.
Goes without saying; 100% true; Brutally obvious. It's just something most of us will do or have done, and need not be blown out of proportion, made to be something extraordinary, when by every definition it is simply ordinary.

[int]

Well if she doesn't want to come out this week we're going to induce one week from today. :)

[garak]

Goes without saying; 100% true; Brutally obvious. It's just something most of us will do or have done, and need not be blown out of proportion, made to be something extraordinary, when by every definition it is simply ordinary.
Dude you're being pretty asinine. It happens generally at most a few times to any given person, and we are biologically and socially conditioned to shit our pants about it. Sure, in technical terms, it's just reproduction. But we're not robots. Things that "technically" are ordinary can still be amazing and special, even if we are "technically" being irrational in thinking so.

In fact, I can't think of anything that can't be passed off as just being "ordinary" if you look at things a certain way.

[sowega]

One should never feel guilty about being a dad of an expentant mother, as I found to be a wonderful experience when I was pregnant with my 17-month old girl. When my daughter was born I had found myself getting better at talking and interacting with people as complete strangers would approach me carrying her stroller. I also found myself turning to an INFP each time I would hug or kiss my little girl. Under the same token, one shouldn't either envy the mother-baby bond, as the dad can bond just as effectively.

Well, not long ago I discovered that I am pregnant with baby No. 2, whom is due in very early April. You can be rest assured that I will be enjoying this pregnancy, as well.

INTP; 5w6

[kendoiwan]

I spent my whole life amassing a checklist of things I would teach my son, I mean years before I ever thought about have sex let alone kids. There were so many things I encountered growing up that nobody taught me about that I had to learn the hard way. So I always said to myself I would teach my child these things. And now that I'm a father I enjoy the role. And as well as teaching my son I learn from him. Wouldn't trade it for the world no words to really convey what I feel and think on the matter, except to say I'm a better human being for it...

Congrats :cheers: