British terror lies

[immortalmack]

Does anyone from England feel youre being duped. I see these false terror stings and all i see is different laws related to freedom of speech and privacy being passed that is constantly making me look at the US as the last haven of human rights and freedom. the UK is starting to look despotic.

Yea the US too which gives me the Idea that if the 20-30 somethings don't do something soon, hello 1984.

[panda]

Simply: yes.

[mancroft]

Do you think that our great and dear leaders would stoop so low?

Yep.

[Claverhouse]

Of course.


Claverhouse :ph34r:

[demagogic_schizoid]

yeah we're being duped, those July 7 and July 21 bombings were all a big lie. The real enemy is Tony Blair, he's the one who wants to hurt us, not those misunderstood islamic freedom fighters.

Some people:banghead:

[Claverhouse]

They weren't very big bombings: not enough to surrender freedoms for.

And besides, I have already pointed out there is a simple solution dealing with genuine convicted terrorists. You give them all the martyrs they want.


Claverhouse :ph34r:

[demagogic_schizoid]

Our freedoms? I thought you were a divine right monarchist. You may think I'm being disrespectful. I'm not, I just don't see how exactly you care about our "freedoms".

Besides, what "freedoms" are we surrendering exactly? Let's be honest, only muslims are going to have their freedoms infringed upon, you and I will, in practice, be unaffected by any terror laws.

[Serotonin]

They're not lies, but I'll say it again, terrorism is overhyped and overpoliticised. I can't help but cast a cynical eye over the Mark Steyns and the Michelle Malkins and the Tim Blairs when they insist that the war on Islamofascism is the dominant paradigm of our times, in which all citizens must be engaged in. I refuse to be drawn into the game, because it means making allegiances with people I don't warm to in the first place. Go ahead, fight your wars, impose draconian measures, whatever, just leave me out of it.


The "If you love freedom, you should support Bush and Blair" line is essentially the epitome of what I'm talking about.

[Claverhouse]

Our freedoms? I thought you were a divine right monarchist. You may think I'm being disrespectful. I'm not, I just don't see how exactly you care about our "freedoms".

It's very simple: I do not believe in Freedom. It is an ill-defined and invariably self-serving concept, one moreover that is designed to enslave.

I do however believe in defined freedoms that apply to specific actions or events: such as the right to smoke freely; the right to think freely; the right to say what you believe no matter how offensive, and a host of others.



Besides, what "freedoms" are we surrendering exactly? Let's be honest, only muslims are going to have their freedoms infringed upon, you and I will, in practice, be unaffected by any terror laws.

We have already lost many traditional freedoms, we had during the early the 20th century, such as the right to bear arms; the right to drink wherever you like; the right to discriminate against employing people you don't want to employ; the right to refuse service; the rights of trade unionists; the right to say what you think openly, and others. We shall lose many more.

At this very moment laws against carrying knives are being sharpened up because fools who I don't care about are stabbing other fools I don't care about. This is part of the maternal drive to make sure everybody leads safe non-violent lives: the terror laws, as with Homeland Security in the USA, are designed to both take away further freedoms, and to inculcate fear of a bogey-man enemy.

As I said, these enemies do exist, just as enemies always have and always shall exist: but you do not need the powers of repression; you need the determination to inflict terror upon those enemies.


Claverhouse :ph34r:

[Nemesis]

Interestingly enough, I'm reading a book that has just about everything to do with this subject.

"Whose Freedom?" by George Lakoff

If you find this subject even remotely interesting, then read this book.

[Dom]

Does anyone from England feel youre being duped. I see these false terror stings and all i see is different laws related to freedom of speech and privacy being passed that is constantly making me look at the US as the last haven of human rights and freedom. the UK is starting to look despotic.

Yeah the US too which gives me the Idea that if the 20-30 somethings don't do something soon, hello 1984.

Yes.. but in our defence we are not even close to the loss of freedom the patriot act in US represents... The UK is still more free than the US... just...

But we are so getting duped into letting it go, but as I've said I'll blow mroe shit up than they can imagine if they take my freedoms.

[wildcat]

Yes.. but in our defence we are not even close to the loss of freedom the patriot act in US represents... The UK is still more free than the US... just...

But we are so getting duped into letting it go, but as I've said I'll blow mroe shit up than they can imagine if they take my freedoms.
To whom you do ascribe your life and freedom?
Edit: To the US.

[Dom]

To whom you do ascribe your life and freedom?

ascribe? as in is responsible for? caused to be?

[wildcat]

ascribe? as in is responsible for? caused to be?
The United States is not perfect.
IT IS THE BEST THERE IS.

[NoahFence]

The United States is not perfect.
IT IS THE BEST THERE IS.

And ever was, and ever will be! We're on top, and we don't need to do crap to stay that way! Nobody could ever surpass us! <_<

Just because you're the best doesn't mean you shouldn't improve.

[Carebear]

Seriously? Even you INTPs believe USA is the best there is? In what way, if I may ask?

By the way, how is the bolded parts from the OP not a contradiction?


Does anyone from England feel youre being duped. I see these false terror stings and all i see is different laws related to freedom of speech and privacy being passed that is constantly making me look at the US as the last haven of human rights and freedom. the UK is starting to look despotic.

Yea the US too which gives me the Idea that if the 20-30 somethings don't do something soon, hello 1984.

The world is big, the world keeps changing. The US constitution was a revolutionary change, but it has been 200+ years, and most western countries learned from the US ideas and kept improving them. The US seems reluctant to change something that's worked so well for so long.

Edit: Hm.. maybe my irony detector is malfunctioning. Were those posts above meant to be ironic? If so, then disregard my post.

[Dom]

The United States is not perfect.
IT IS THE BEST THERE IS.

Sorry chap I totaly disagree, but you know that.

I prefer our legal, policital, ecconomic and social systems....

And if you are suggesting I owe my freedom to the US for WWII I rather think I owe a greater debt to my own nation who fought alone for so long and to the Russians who did most of the leg work.

:P

[Dom]

The world is big, the world keeps changing. The US constitution was a revolutionary change, but it has been 200+ years, and most western countries learned from the US ideas and kept improving them. The US seems reluctant to change something that's worked so well for so long.

Edit: Hm.. maybe my irony detector is malfunctioning. Were those posts above meant to be ironic? If so, then disregard my post.

The US revolution, was based almost entirely on British policital thought!
The principals in the consistution were also based on British policital theory...

And it was very rude, we only wanted a little money to raise an army to protect them... it came as a total supprise to us! 4 tonnes of people here were under a far heavier tax burden and did not have representation either!

[Carebear]

I know. :)

And still Britannia ruled the waves and kept protecting the US until the onset of WW2. (Or maybe the us started getting a proper fleet allready during WW1, I don't remember.)

[Madrigal]

Funny how the threat of attacks was deeply questioned in the UK, while on the other side of the Atlantic, the incident raised George Bush's popularity by 10%. I swear I have to tell myself, "No, Americans are not stupid, Americans are not stupid..." over and over again, lest I should succumb to anti-Americanism. It gets harder every day.

[Dom]

I know. :)

And still Britannia ruled the waves and kept protecting the US until the onset of WW2. (Or maybe the us started getting a proper fleet allready during WW1, I don't remember.)

nah it was pretty tiny at the start of ww2 but by the end....

that was one awesome industrial machine...

Do you know my Grandad was in the last transport out of Norway, he remembers watching the Norweigen flag go down and the Sawsikker rise, while being shot at, he got shot at alot, he was in it from start to finish.

[Krill]

Funny how the threat of attacks was deeply questioned in the UK, while on the other side of the Atlantic, the incident raised George Bush's popularity by 10%. I swear I have to tell myself, "No, Americans are not stupid, Americans are not stupid..." over and over again, lest I should succumb to anti-Americanism. It gets harder every day.

Perhaps people are just stupid in general and the media makes it easier here?

[Dom]

Funny how the threat of attacks was deeply questioned in the UK, while on the other side of the Atlantic, the incident raised George Bush's popularity by 10%. I swear I have to tell myself, "No, Americans are not stupid, Americans are not stupid..." over and over again, lest I should succumb to anti-Americanism. It gets harder every day.

We're just old enough to be very cynical???

[immortalmack]

Edit: Hm.. maybe my irony detector is malfunctioning. Were those posts above meant to be ironic? If so, then disregard my post.

No. I read a great deal of political economy and history and it's startling me to really see guvments go authoritarian. i'm at the point to where it's not enuff to just be able to see it but the challenge is how do you mobilize a nation to resist future tyranny. at some point bot even my Sk with 100 round drum is gonna be enuff to stay free.

[Carebear]

No. I read a great deal of political economy and history and it's startling me to really see guvments go authoritarian. i'm at the point to where it's not enuff to just be able to see it but the challenge is how do you mobilize a nation to resist future tyranny. at some point bot even my Sk with 100 round drum is gonna be enuff to stay free.

I think it's in the nature of any government or other power to slowly get corrupted and slide towards authoritarianism. If you have checks and balances, it can be prevented, but the checks and balances of the US system are flawed. (Judges shouldn't be appointed through politics, media shouldn't be owned by one political party etc. (Yeah yeah, the republicans don't own the media. Riiiight.))

Trying to mobilize against it is like trying to halt the flow of a glazier though. You're hoping for a major climathe change, such things tend to take time and are extremely unpredictable.

[Dom]

Resistance is futile...

No, some will mobilize, most wont till it is too late...

Most people do not think about their freedoms etc till it actually effects them, the number of people in my own office, would happily give up all their freedoms. Why? Because they are scared and they are a new generation that has not known the cataclysmic problems of the past. They think if you have nothing to hide, theres no problem with letting the government read all your mail...

It never occurs to them that it's just wrong, whether you're planing to be naughty or not, it never occurs to them that one day it could be them under scrutiny, locked up without charge, etc etc.

They just want a peaceful life, and they'll trade freedom for it, but of course once tyranny is really here (it's a long way off yet) then they'll realize what they have lost...

The wont mobilize till it's too late and then they will be too afraid...

It's down to us...

[immortalmack]

Funny how the threat of attacks was deeply questioned in the UK, while on the other side of the Atlantic, the incident raised George Bush's popularity by 10%. I swear I have to tell myself, "No, Americans are not stupid, Americans are not stupid..." over and over again, lest I should succumb to anti-Americanism. It gets harder every day.

Many americans are drones. they believe everything thats marketed to them. Also public polls are a fake. It's another form of propaganda that can be seen at length in meine kempf.the question is how do you mobilize people to resist tyranny of the guvment.americans can be lazy to intellectual political pursuts as that.How do get a large crowd together to demonstrate?

[MyDogHasFleas]

I have 2 observations that are somewhat unrelated.

(1) The theme that the USA and UK governments are "too authoritarian" is, I think, a proxy for the theme that they are too aggressive in fighting Islamic fascism and too pro-Israel. The governments of other Western nations (e.g. France) are also quite authoritarian (at least by your standards) and yet they are not regularly flayed here. Why? Because they are not on the same page as the USA and UK in the "war against terror".

(2) This idea of a Western democracy "becoming a police state" that seems to be prevalent here is, I think, absurd. Can you give any examples where this has happened, absent overturning of the democratic system itself? I don't think there are any.

Furthermore, I believe the Internet has fundamentally changed the nature of government, and has made it more difficult than before for such a free-to-totalitarian transformation to happen.

[demagogic_schizoid]

Many americans are drones. they believe everything thats marketed to them. Also public polls are a fake. It's another form of propaganda that can be seen at length in meine kempf.the question is how do you mobilize people to resist tyranny of the guvment.americans can be lazy to intellectual political pursuts as that.How do get a large crowd together to demonstrate?

If they were drones, surely it would be easy to get them into large crowds to demonstrate. Maybe they just live their own lives and don't buy into collectivist propaganda propagated by lefty conmen who just want to mobilize the masses to gain money and power for themselves.

GOD BLESS AMERICA.

[Stoned_Rider]

Resistance is futile...

No, some will mobilize, most wont till it is too late...

Most people do not think about their freedoms etc till it actually effects them, the number of people in my own office, would happily give up all their freedoms. Why? Because they are scared and they are a new generation that has not known the cataclysmic problems of the past. They think if you have nothing to hide, theres no problem with letting the government read all your mail...

It never occurs to them that it's just wrong, whether you're planing to be naughty or not, it never occurs to them that one day it could be them under scrutiny, locked up without charge, etc etc.

They just want a peaceful life, and they'll trade freedom for it, but of course once tyranny is really here (it's a long way off yet) then they'll realize what they have lost...

The wont mobilize till it's too late and then they will be too afraid...

It's down to us...
Hmm.. I don't think the government will actually read every single word of every single mail of every single person living in Britain. Similarly, I don't think there will be people assigned to monitor CCTV cameras 24/7 and monitor every single movement made by every single person living in Britain. True, there will be mail and CCTV records kept by the government but I really think they will only refer to them when they need them e.g. identifying suspects after a terror attack etc.. There could also be some sort of automatic mechanism to detect suspicious movements, mail, etc..

I'm cool with it. People will still be able to do whatever they want to do freely. I agree with your colleagues at the office: If you got nothing to hide then you got nothing to fear.

[demagogic_schizoid]

Good to see some common sense Stoned Rider. The thing is, intelligence has always monitored phone-calls and emails, it's an unfortunate necessity when we live in such a dangerous world. Think how many lives have been saved by the security services having prior knowledge that a terrorist attack is being planned, IMO you have to sacrifice a small amount of freedom to be able to maintain the society we live in, which garauntees us more freedom, prosperity and safety than any of our ancestors before us ever enjoyed, and more than what our counterparts outside of the west enjoy.

[Dom]

Hmm.. I don't think the government will actually read every single word of every single mail of every single person living in Britain. Similarly, I don't think there will be people assigned to monitor CCTV cameras 24/7 and monitor every single movement made by every single person living in Britain. True, there will be mail and CCTV records kept by the government but I really think they will only refer to them when they need them e.g. identifying suspects after a terror attack etc.. There could also be some sort of automatic mechanism to detect suspicious movements, mail, etc..

I'm cool with it. People will still be able to do whatever they want to do freely. I agree with your colleagues at the office: If you got nothing to hide then you got nothing to fear.

Today: fine, this government: fine but you hand power not to any one government but to all, my concern would be like this, if they feel they have reasonable suspision then read my mail, but if they don't have to show to a judge reasonable suspision frist then you have the makings of a tyranny.

I don't believe they will read eveything I'm actually not paranoid. My fear isn't right now, it's 10 years or 20 years down the line, governements don't often give powers back.

When a politican (The Home Sec) can lock someone up without charge, without judicial review, then there is a problem! He could lock you up for whatver and there is not check on it. This was defeated in the commons but they still tired it. Oh yes nothing to fear with nothing to hide... go tell that to the poor buggers murdered during McCarthy's witch hunt.. not all of them had something to hide...

[KuJo]

Resistance is futile...

No, some will mobilize, most wont till it is too late...

Most people do not think about their freedoms etc till it actually effects them, the number of people in my own office, would happily give up all their freedoms. Why? Because they are scared and they are a new generation that has not known the cataclysmic problems of the past. They think if you have nothing to hide, theres no problem with letting the government read all your mail...

It never occurs to them that it's just wrong, whether you're planing to be naughty or not, it never occurs to them that one day it could be them under scrutiny, locked up without charge, etc etc.

They just want a peaceful life, and they'll trade freedom for it, but of course once tyranny is really here (it's a long way off yet) then they'll realize what they have lost...

The wont mobilize till it's too late and then they will be too afraid...

It's down to us...


im going to have to agree. most people i know wouldnt think twice about giving up freedoms if it is "supposed" to make them safer. they just dont care, they think their life is almost unaffected by politics and an overreaching government. then if they lose something they actually wanted they get mad and then get active about it. people are generally unassuming of their government, which i dont understand. "well if it will make us safer....."

[immortalmack]

I have 2 observations that are somewhat unrelated.

(1) The theme that the USA and UK governments are "too authoritarian" is, I think, a proxy for the theme that they are too aggressive in fighting Islamic fascism and too pro-Israel. The governments of other Western nations (e.g. France) are also quite authoritarian (at least by your standards) and yet they are not regularly flayed here. Why? Because they are not on the same page as the USA and UK in the "war against terror".

(2) This idea of a Western democracy "becoming a police state" that seems to be prevalent here is, I think, absurd. Can you give any examples where this has happened, absent overturning of the democratic system itself? I don't think there are any.

Furthermore, I believe the Internet has fundamentally changed the nature of government, and has made it more difficult than before for such a free-to-totalitarian transformation to happen.

Now don't get it twisted. When it comes to flat out being vigilant and fighting terrorist which are real, I think we should whoop ass and not care what to call someone we found hurt on a battle field that were trying to kill our soldiers. But what I am not for is the SLOW erosion of our rights. I voted for george bush both times and I think hes done a decent job IN THE BEGINNING but if you read. Livys history of rome, rousseau social contract,hitlers meine kempf,machavelli art of war and the prince,open societies and their enemies, edmund burkes reflections on the revolution and france, Platos republic; statesmen; sophist,Julisu Ceasar wars,...look at what the Ruusians did after that beslan massacre...look at what spain did after so called train bombings..you have to understand two things. democracies traditionally are slow to go to war because of the task of gaining public support which means informing the public.Another thing is one of the main strategies for passing laws that you other wise wouldnt be able to pass you use either the peoples awe and respect for religion or you use fear. whatever happened to the anthrax issue. Nothing because it was bullshit and I believed it and the case ended with a powdery substance traced to the bottom of the lake. It was A GAME of hardball being played to scare up statemen who didnt want to be duped. dick chaney shot his damn lawyer in the face with a shot gun!do you think that was a mistake! HEAR ME FREE PEOPLES:liberty is gained but never recovered.

[MyDogHasFleas]

whoa... immortalmack's post is just a bit scary. I can almost see the spittle flying as he types madly... I'm not gonna try to respond directly... but you do raise the following thought..

What is up with conspiracy theories? Are they really becoming much more prevalent than in the past, or does it just seem that way because of better communication via the Internet and 24-hour news coverage?

BTW if you want to see the king of conspiracist people check out Alex Jones's InfoWars http://www.infowars.com -- he's from my very own Austin, TX I'm sorry to say. Amazing how this kind of stuff can feed on itself and be popular.

My theory is that it just makes people feel special, in-the-know, and somehow empowered if they believe they know secrets that others don't get. To the extent that they will hold onto those beliefs in the face of any rational discussion or thought process.

[demagogic_schizoid]

There is a hilarious video I downloaded of Alex Jones shouting "I'm coming to get you scum!" at the camera, and ranting about the aristocratics trying to force him to eat his "turnip". I think the guy is a comedy genious.

[rawr]

Funny how the threat of attacks was deeply questioned in the UK, while on the other side of the Atlantic, the incident raised George Bush's popularity by 10%. I swear I have to tell myself, "No, Americans are not stupid, Americans are not stupid..." over and over again, lest I should succumb to anti-Americanism. It gets harder every day.

1. everyone knows public polls are bullshit, thats a widely accepted fact
2. the media and administration do not represent the people
3. every country has its morons
4. the reason why the media is fucked now is because ronald reagan's admistration whoring out the FCC to huge corporations. Television/paper news is a storm of bullshit . Most educated people know this.

If you've got a problem with the bullshit. You should blame the spreaders of the shit, the AP

[Madrigal]

1. everyone knows public polls are bullshit, thats a widely accepted fact
2. the media and administration do not represent the people
3. every country has its morons
4. the reason why the media is fucked now is because ronald reagan's admistration whoring out the FCC to huge corporations. Television/paper news is a storm of bullshit . Most educated people know this.

If you've got a problem with the bullshit. You should blame the spreaders of the shit, the AP
Everything you said was right. But are you also saying Bush's popularity didn't increase over the scare?

[ptGatsby]

report it for what? There's nothing racist about that at all, muslim is a religion not a race, and what I said is a plain fact - only muslims are likely to be affected by these laws.


Just to check... you see this as ok?

[demagogic_schizoid]

Just to check... you see this as ok?

Read my post "at last some good news" on this board, it's on this page, and I have already answered your question there.

[immortalmack]

anybody else on standing up to government tyranny?Solutions?

[Nemesis]

GOD BLESS AMERICA.
You're right. I owe it so much. I know what I'll repay it with, it can have my citizenship back. In the meantime, you can have my spot, and I'll happily take yours.

[Nemesis]

IMO you have to sacrifice a small amount of freedom to be able to maintain the society we live in,
No.

[rawr]

Everything you said was right. But are you also saying Bush's popularity didn't increase over the scare?


I doubt it did. I think most people are currently entirely disenchanted with politics here in the US. Since no one realy does anything for the peoples interest.

[ptGatsby]

Read my post "at last some good news" on this board, it's on this page, and I have already answered your question there.


Ah, found it, thanks.

You know, I once wondered what it was like... how people could not stand up for others - even not of their own 'kind' - when laws were directly targeted or ignored. When basic rights were removed, did no one fear for their own?

I remember reading about Jews during Hitler?s times (warning: Godwin is now in effect). I always wondered if people stood around saying "Good, its about time". I always wondered if I'd stand up for my neighbor when they came for him...

I remember reading about all the different forms of excuses... Some of them about fairness... Some of them just pure emotion. Some for vengeance and jealousy. Some out of fear...

I also remember reading about the slippery slope argument... and how it isn't really a proper argument. But now I see it... CCTV cameras in public spaces translated to total invasion of privacy... and people are happy about it. People clamor for it! More all the time! "Give me security!"

I remember reading about propaganda... I remember how often a scapegoat was required to get buyin from people. Hell, I remember various speeches as examples... conceptually the same as your comments... to allow these kinds of gradual changes.

This was a flash of insight for me... a scary one. A reminder against what is the real enemy... and the real threat to western civilization, to the freedoms that once defined our culture. To the very essence of constitutions, to all humans being equal... I can see that trickling away...

[immortalmack]

But the aims of the would-be tyrants were valiantly opposed by those without elitist, dangerous powers. Our loyal clone troopers contained the insurrection within the Jedi Temple and quelled uprisings on a thousand worlds. The remaining Jedi will be hunted down and defeated. Any collaborators will suffer the same fate. These have been trying times, but we have passed the test. The attempt on my life has left me scarred and deformed, but I assure you my resolve has never been stronger. The war is over. The Sepratists have been defeated, and the Jedi rebellion has been foiled. We stand on the threshold of a new beginning. In order to ensure the security and continuing stability, the Republic will be reorganized into the first Galactic Empire, for a safe and secure society, which I assure you will last for 10,000 years.(sounds familiar)

[Ellipsis]

Anyone ever hear the qoute: Anyone who sacrifices a bit of freedom for a bit of security will get neithier and deserves neither or something like that..I remeber it from civilization 4 but it really is a good qoute...who said it?

I was listening to a speech by the Bush man today and one of the things I found disturbing was the mention of several things...The first being the banning of political actvism at funerals of soliders. Although, I must agree some actavists go a little over board sometimes...yet peaceful slogans and cries for peace as far as I am consired do not offend anyone...didn't those soliders give up thier lives for peace? Anyway, the next thing is the thing about warring ideologies...now this I found strange. I thought this was a war on tarrorism although terrorism may be consdered a "ism" but an full Ideology which is in compition with the western Ideals...I doupt it...In addition the mention of God in all of Bush's speechs is disturbing....I don't know I come from canada and here political leaders remain rather nutural on political matters. I know I am probly blabbing...I just thought I would mention it...It just seems alot like whats go on at the other end? Truly, no goverment that proclaims itself as relating to the wishs of a higher being can be trusted.(It seems rather tactless)

[Claverhouse]

Anyone ever hear the qoute: Anyone who sacrifices a bit of freedom for a bit of security will get neithier and deserves neither or something like that..I remeber it from civilization 4 but it really is a good qoute...who said it?

It was was discussed here two weeks back, see posts 15 on. http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=13501
But, as you say, it is well worthy enough to come from a computer game.


Claverhouse :ph34r:

[MyDogHasFleas]

"freedom" vs. "security" is not a useful argument, it's only polarizing -- it serves only to make people argue. It's way too abstract to have any useful outcome. Plus, it assumes that the less I have of one the more I have of the other, which is just dumb.

Look at the endpoints of this false dichotomy to see how ridiculous it is. If you have all freedom but no security you have nothing, because you will just be shat upon by whoever gets a notion to. If you have all security but no freedom you have nothing either, because you can't do anything without getting approval or risking punishment.

It is also useless as a context-free discussion. If someone is holding a gun to your head and is about to shoot you, how free you are is sort of pointless. You need a big, bad security guy to tackle the shooter and neutralize him. On the other hand, if you are living a comfortable, carefree life, but someone is about to take over your government and replace it with a totalitarian regime, then you will probably sacrifice your security to fight against the takeover (well at least I would).

My point is, security vs. freedom is quite situational and there is no one answer -- and we should not be drawn into crying "NO! I will NOT sacrifice my freedom for security!!" because that is a view that is easily manipulated and used by others. Think for yourself!

[MyDogHasFleas]

I was listening to a speech by the Bush man today


What speech? This one? (http://www.defenselink.mil/Utility/PrintItem.aspx?print=http://www.defenselink.mil/Speeches/Speech.aspx?SpeechID=1033)



and one of the things I found disturbing was the mention of several things...The first being the banning of political actvism at funerals of soliders. Although, I must agree some actavists go a little over board sometimes...yet peaceful slogans and cries for peace as far as I am consired do not offend anyone...didn't those soliders give up thier lives for peace?


Are you talking about these protests? (http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/03/12/060312122104.pgrezzqi.html) You gotta be kidding. These are not political protests. These are people expressing their joy that our soldiers are dead. Here's an excerpt from the linked story:



Five women sang and danced as they held up signs saying "thank God for dead soldiers" at the funeral of an army sergeant who was killed by an Iraqi bomb.
For them, it was the perfect way to spread God's word: America was being punished for tolerating homosexuality.

For the hundreds of flag waving bikers who came to this small town in Michigan Saturday to shield the soldier's family, it was disgusting.

"That could be me in that church," said Jackie Sandler whose son Keith is currently serving his second tour of duty in Iraq.

The fringe group of fire and brimstone Baptists from Kansas has been courting controversy for more than 15 years, traveling the country with their hateful signs and slogans.





Anyway, the next thing is the thing about warring ideologies...now this I found strange. I thought this was a war on tarrorism although terrorism may be consdered a "ism" but an full Ideology which is in compition with the western Ideals...I doupt it...


Why do you think the terrorists are spreading terror? Because they are oppressed and wish to protest the evil Western capitalists that are oppressing them? Gimme a break. Take the time to read their statements. It's all about an ideology.



In addition the mention of God in all of Bush's speechs is disturbing....I don't know I come from canada and here political leaders remain rather nutural on political matters. I know I am probly blabbing...I just thought I would mention it...It just seems alot like whats go on at the other end? Truly, no goverment that proclaims itself as relating to the wishs of a higher being can be trusted.(It seems rather tactless)

I do not believe in God personally, but I respect those who do. And I don't understand those who are "disturbed" because someone mentions God. The USA has a secular government and the leaders do not make decisions based on religious beliefs. However, the principles of their religious beliefs inform their value system, positively I think.

[demagogic_schizoid]

Ah, found it, thanks.

You know, I once wondered what it was like... how people could not stand up for others - even not of their own 'kind' - when laws were directly targeted or ignored. When basic rights were removed, did no one fear for their own?

I remember reading about Jews during Hitler?s times (warning: Godwin is now in effect). I always wondered if people stood around saying "Good, its about time". I always wondered if I'd stand up for my neighbor when they came for him...

I remember reading about all the different forms of excuses... Some of them about fairness... Some of them just pure emotion. Some for vengeance and jealousy. Some out of fear...

I also remember reading about the slippery slope argument... and how it isn't really a proper argument. But now I see it... CCTV cameras in public spaces translated to total invasion of privacy... and people are happy about it. People clamor for it! More all the time! "Give me security!"

I remember reading about propaganda... I remember how often a scapegoat was required to get buyin from people. Hell, I remember various speeches as examples... conceptually the same as your comments... to allow these kinds of gradual changes.

This was a flash of insight for me... a scary one. A reminder against what is the real enemy... and the real threat to western civilization, to the freedoms that once defined our culture. To the very essence of constitutions, to all humans being equal... I can see that trickling away...


How can you blame people for wanting security when we live in a time when international terrorist networks are targetting pretty much every country in the world, and killing civilians at random. You might not think this is a big deal, but I do, and frankly I couldn't care less if that means the security services, in the interests of efficiency, concentrate more on groups within our society which are more likely to be a threat. This is not the same as giving policemen the right to simply imprison or kill people based on their race, it's simply about refining strategies to defeat an enemy which wants to remove all of the freedoms you hold dear. Remember, there was no freedom in the stone age, to be free you need wealth, security, and health, and to acheieve these things you need a government with sovereignity over it's citizens. As long as the people have a free and fair vote, the government will always be ultimately their employee.

[Heleuiski]

The United States is not perfect.
IT IS THE BEST THERE IS.

I beg to differ. There is no way you would move my ass to teh USA.

It is best here.

Defo no contest, and I know coz I've been around there to many states.

You have hardly any vacation time, you work your asses off, you have to pay for healthcare, your society is very segregated, blacks, latinos, white areas. I remember a good friend from teh US saying that some black folks had moved into the area and the price of their houses would really drop.. I mean WTF?????

[earwax]

Are you talking about these protests? (http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/03/12/060312122104.pgrezzqi.html) You gotta be kidding. These are not political protests. These are people expressing their joy that our soldiers are dead. Here's an excerpt from the linked story:
OMG! The Westboro Baptist Church... These people are scarier than any Islamic terrorist group.

[MyDogHasFleas]

I beg to differ. There is no way you would move my ass to teh USA.

It is best here.

where is "here" ??



Defo no contest, and I know coz I've been around there to many states.

You have hardly any vacation time, you work your asses off,


You'd be surprised. I think the term "slacker" originated here. Yes it's certainly true that we don't have the really labor-oriented laws that mandate vacation, leave, termination, etc. etc. etc. --- but I think that that's a good thing --- you become less competitive as an economy when you go there.



you have to pay for healthcare,


well this is the classic fallacy -- just because the government provides something, doesn't mean you don't PAY for it... you just pay differently. What you mean is, you'd like a universal tax that pays for everyone's health care, rather than individuals being responsible for themselves.



your society is very segregated, blacks,
latinos, white areas. I remember a good friend from teh US saying that some black folks had moved into the area and the price of their houses would really drop.. I mean WTF?????

unfortunately true... the only positive thing to say is that things are improving... I remember traveling with my father to Virginia in the early 60s and seeing the "Whites Only" signs over the restrooms

[charred_heart]

well this is the classic fallacy -- just because the government provides something, doesn't mean you don't PAY for it... you just pay differently. What you mean is, you'd like a universal tax that pays for everyone's health care, rather than individuals being responsible for themselves.even a $1500 tax is better than paying $15000 for a critical and urgent operation or $700 on assorted drugs and I suspect that the tax in the UK isn't that high.

My mother worked in the UK for 6 months, she got eye laser surgery and was introduced to the latest diabetes medicine for nothing. We calculated that it would take her more than a year to pay for that kind of medical care if she had the same salary without taxes.

[Dom]

How can you blame people for wanting security when we live in a time when international terrorist networks are targetting pretty much every country in the world, and killing civilians at random. You might not think this is a big deal, but I do, and frankly I couldn't care less if that means the security services, in the interests of efficiency, concentrate more on groups within our society which are more likely to be a threat. This is not the same as giving policemen the right to simply imprison or kill people based on their race, it's simply about refining strategies to defeat an enemy which wants to remove all of the freedoms you hold dear. Remember, there was no freedom in the stone age, to be free you need wealth, security, and health, and to acheieve these things you need a government with sovereignity over it's citizens. As long as the people have a free and fair vote, the government will always be ultimately their employee.

Actually it is the same as allowing the police to imprision or shoot someone on race, but I understand your frustration.

It's ok you can be afraid if you want... I'l be busy not beign afraid, and not beign stupid to the threat either! but what the terrorists want is to change our way of life....

the choice is ours...

[Heleuiski]

where is "here" ??

1. You'd be surprised. I think the term "slacker" originated here. Yes it's certainly true that we don't have the really labor-oriented laws that mandate vacation, leave, termination, etc. etc. etc. --- but I think that that's a good thing --- you become less competitive as an economy when you go there.

2. well this is the classic fallacy -- just because the government provides something, doesn't mean you don't PAY for it... you just pay differently. What you mean is, you'd like a universal tax that pays for everyone's health care, rather than individuals being responsible for themselves.

3. unfortunately true... the only positive thing to say is that things are improving... I remember traveling with my father to Virginia in the early 60s and seeing the "Whites Only" signs over the restrooms

Tim Burtons basement!!!

Seriously the UK.

1. You can balance labour laws and have a stable economy. We manage it.

2. Yes I'd rather be taken to hospital without someone rifling in my wallet for a credit card.. or maybe that's a fallacy too?

3. Yes it's true. I know I've been there. I've seen the ghost towns and trailer parks and the parts that look like a third world country. Frankly I was pretty shocked.

[Dom]

even a $1500 tax is better than paying $15000 for a critical and urgent operation or $700 on assorted drugs and I suspect that the tax in the UK isn't that high.

My mother worked in the UK for 6 months, she got eye laser surgery and was introduced to the latest diabetes medicine for nothing. We calculated that it would take her more than a year to pay for that kind of medical care if she had the same salary without taxes.

:D

The tax burdon for the nhs is roughly half of the us medical insurance for the same level of serivce, someone posted the info on that thread discussing it!

[Heleuiski]

country GDP in billions of dollars

United States 10,400 GDP of United States
China 5,700 GDP of China
Japan 3,550 GDP of Japan
India 2,660 GDP of India
Germany 2,180 GDP of Germany
France 1,540 GDP of France
United Kingdom 1,520 GDP of United Kingdom

7th GDP and what are we? The size of New Jersey?

[demagogic_schizoid]

not in terms of population, and actually it's pretty poor that we're below France.

[ptGatsby]

How can you blame people for wanting security when we live in a time when international terrorist networks are targetting pretty much every country in the world, and killing civilians at random.


I can't blame people for being afraid. I can blame them for being part of any form of persecution. And I will, when it becomes evident they do support it.



This is not the same as giving policemen the right to simply imprison or kill people based on their race, it's simply about refining strategies to defeat an enemy which wants to remove all of the freedoms you hold dear.


They cannot remove our freedoms. Only the people that run the country can. They could overthrow your country... but that's a different threat.



Remember, there was no freedom in the stone age, to be free you need wealth, security, and health, and to acheieve these things you need a government with sovereignity over it's citizens.


As long as the majority can persecute a minority, there is no freedom. No amount of wealth, security and health could ever change the arbitrary winds of public opinion - and the government is held ransom to them.

That is why law is inviolate. Its why human rights are inviolate. It is our freedom, for without it, any government is merely another dictatorship.



As long as the people have a free and fair vote, the government will always be ultimately their employee.


Again, as long as the majority can persecute a minority, there is no freedom. Law above all else? And yes, that is law above fear, law above government. And that all men are equal, with equal rights?

Isn't that what Britain's great contribution to the free world was about?

And speaking of fear...

Do you know how many planes take off and land each year? Want to know what percentage crash and kill passangers for reasons totally different than terrorism? Terrorist acts could rise by an order of magnitude and still only be a blip on the radar in terms of risk.

I'm sorry you feel afraid... I'm sorry any of us have to be afraid. But I'm also sorry you can't see that murders take hundreds of times more lives than terrorism does... that violent crime tops millions of incidents a years (tens of millions really, but...)

[demagogic_schizoid]

Listen, it's not about fear. I'm not afraid I'm going to be blown up. The reason I'm against terrorism and want to go to any length to defeat it is because it's a humiliation for us as human beings to live with the threat of being blown up in our own country by a minority who don't like what we do. I'm against it on principle, to me it's worse to be killed in a plane that gets bombed than in a plane crash, because it's a case of our enemies being able to laugh in our face and celebrate our deaths. That's what I really hate, so it's not just about numbers and statistics, IMO when my country is attacked I am attacked, and we all are, and we should want to prevent it from ever happening again as a matter of pride.

[imfrellinggay]

Remember Remember the Fifth of November...

Sorry, I'm reading this thread and it reminds me of what happened in that fabulous movie V for Vendetta.

I say we don those fabulous Guy Fawkes masks + capes, stand in front of the UK Parliament and the US Capital Building, and protest the government. At the end of the protest: fireworks!

[Heleuiski]

Remember Remember the Fifth of November...

Sorry, I'm reading this thread and it reminds me of what happened in that fabulous movie V for Vendetta.

I say we don those fabulous Guy Fawkes masks + capes, stand in front of the UK Parliament and the US Capital Building, and protest the government. At the end of the protest: fireworks!

I liked that film.

[imfrellinggay]

I liked that film.

T'was a very good movie. I actually cried at the part when Evie was reading the toilet paper scrolls.

[ptGatsby]

I'm against it on principle, to me it's worse to be killed in a plane that gets bombed than in a plane crash, because it's a case of our enemies being able to laugh in our face and celebrate our deaths. That's what I really hate, so it's not just about numbers and statistics, IMO when my country is attacked I am attacked, and we all are, and we should want to prevent it from ever happening again as a matter of pride.



Your pride... you'd give up what your country stands for... for your pride!? Your pride makes everything ok? The rights, the instrusions, the loss of freedom!? All so your pride can be kept safe!? That is your motivation!?

I can't continue this conversation... I hope you find your safety and your pride intact at the end of the journey.

[demagogic_schizoid]

What does my country stand for? My country exists because we happen to be seperated from the European mainland by a bit of water which kept us seperate for many years, and because of various invasions and treaties which gradually united these islands. It means something different to each individual, nobody ever sat down and decided to found the UK/Britain/England on a set of principles.

Also, I think pride is the most important thing we have, you can take everything else away but that, because it comes from within, and while we have it we are never truly defeated. And to me the day we tolerate people blowing us up as a fact of life is the day we have been defeated.

[ptGatsby]

And to me the day we tolerate people blowing us up as a fact of life is the day we have been defeated.


Meh. You tolerate roughly 20,000,000 violent crimes a year. You tolerate hundreds of murders. You tolerate theft, extortion and corruption.

I cannot even say what I want to say... I couldn't help but turn this into a personal attack... and I believe there is no excuse for that. Except, of course, if my pride was hurt.

Dammit... Ok, I'm done! Must... walk... away...

[demagogic_schizoid]

It's different when it's an attack on a group of people simply because of their nationality/race/religion etc. Surely you can see how this is an attack not just on the victims who were in the wrong place at the wrong time, but everyone who happens to belong to the group attacked - in the case of Al-Qaeda, that group being non-muslims.

[dubbeltop]

They lie ,you pay ,isnt it a perfect world? Just don't despair and go about you're daily business ,citizen.......

Everybody should read :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_Farm
and the book 1984 and realize that people change but government (institutions) never change.

[MyDogHasFleas]

Meh. You tolerate roughly 20,000,000 violent crimes a year. You tolerate hundreds of murders. You tolerate theft, extortion and corruption.

I cannot even say what I want to say... I couldn't help but turn this into a personal attack... and I believe there is no excuse for that. Except, of course, if my pride was hurt.

Dammit... Ok, I'm done! Must... walk... away...

Wow. You've flunked Terrorism 101 if you think that crime and terrorism are somehow comparable, much less equivalent as you imply.

The goals of crime and terrorism are completely different, aren't they?

And, frankly, I think your anger is completely inappropriate, and indicates your core motive here... hatred for the USA and its institutions.

[Nemesis]

Listen, it's not about fear. I'm not afraid I'm going to be blown up. The reason I'm against terrorism and want to go to any length to defeat it is because it's a humiliation for us as human beings to live with the threat of being blown up in our own country by a minority who don't like what we do.
:rofl:

[demagogic_schizoid]

what's your point? What I mean is that it's wrong that this threat should exist, not that I am personally afraid.

[Nemesis]

what's your point? What I mean is that it's wrong that this threat should exist, not that I am personally afraid.
The fact that you call it a threat implies that you are afraid.

[demagogic_schizoid]

Not really, I stopped working in London in June, I have no reason to use public transport any more, and I'm going to live in Liverpool this month, which is hardly likely to be bombed. The threat is to the country, not to me personally.

[Nemesis]

Not really, I stopped working in London in June, I have no reason to use public transport any more, and I'm going to live in Liverpool this month, which is hardly likely to be bombed. The threat is to the country, not to me personally.
Still, you have something to lose every time there's even a threat, and you know it. Otherwise, you wouldn't care.

[demagogic_schizoid]

Well yes, I have to see an injustice being committed against my people.

[Ymir]

Terrorism is just a sympton of western weakness. Islam is a hostile ideology that has been allowed to grow because of the idea of multiculturalism. European nations has allowed largescale immigration without any assimilation. There is no national unity, because people don't have anything in common anymore. The only thing holding countries together is the government. As long as Islam is present it's followers will use legal and illegal methods to weaken our system and put us under islamic law.

As for those worried about your freedoms. Let's not forget that the only reason for a nation state to exist is to provide security from foreign and domestic enemies, and uphold law and order. The threat is real and the government should have the tools to do their job. I do belive that the government should target groups that represent a threat. The fact is that most terrorist acts are commited by muslims. It is only natural that the government uses it's limited resources on the most likely threats. Token efforts, like screening everybody at the airport, is a waste of resources and an insult to those that are law obedient citizens.

[immortalmack]

Ymir do you think countries would be better off being all white or all black etc?

[Dr. Haight]

Ymir do you think countries would be better off being all white or all black etc?
ummm,


Yes it is. How do you think most countries got created in the first place? Multicultural countries are unstable they are only hold together by the government. The result of lack of national unity is widespread corruption and racial politics. Your own country Sudan is an exampel of different cultureres not getting along.

http://forums.intpcentral.com/showpost.php?p=404371&postcount=142

[immortalmack]

I think hes right.

Dr. Haight youre everywhere! Admit that you have multiple clones of yourself.)

[Ymir]

Ymir do you think countries would be better off being all white or all black etc?
In every country around the globe people self segregate, based on religion, race and language. A country with one language, one religion and one race will be more stable long term than a multicultural society. Even my own country wanted independece after 500 hundred year as a part of Denmark and later Sweden, and we are not that different.

[Nemesis]

Well yes, I have to see an injustice being committed against my people.
What? Well look, my point is, you can be against terrorism all you want, but you can't possibly be dumb enough to honestly think that once the "War on Terror" is over that all these liberties will be given back to us. That is, if the war is ever even over.

[Heleuiski]

In every country around the globe people self segregate, based on religion, race and language. A country with one language, one religion and one race will be more stable long term than a multicultural society. Even my own country wanted independece after 500 hundred year as a part of Denmark and later Sweden, and we are not that different.

Over time people integrate, otherwise there would still be seperate Italian (Roman) German (saxon) and French (Norman) communities in the UK you fool, along with a smattering of Vikings in Yorkshire.

[Nemesis]

Over time people integrate, otherwise there would still be seperate Italian (Roman) German (saxon) and French (Norman) communities in the UK you fool, along with a smattering of Vikings in Yorkshire.
And a full-blooded Native American community in the United States. If memory serves, the last full-blooded Native American died sometime in the 1950's, but don't quote me on it.

[Ymir]

Over time people integrate, otherwise there would still be seperate Italian (Roman) German (saxon) and French (Norman) communities in the UK you fool, along with a smattering of Vikings in Yorkshire.
You are talking about assimilation. The end result is one culture. The idea behind multicultaralism is that everybody keeps their cultural identity, no assimilation.

[Heleuiski]

You are talking about assimilation. The end result is one culture. The idea behind multicultaralism is that everybody keeps their cultural identity, no assimilation.

It doesn't work like that in reality.

[Dr. Haight]

Several posts were moved to the following location earlier today:

http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=13936

[Claverhouse]

Over time people integrate, otherwise there would still be seperate Italian (Roman) German (saxon) and French (Norman) communities in the UK you fool, along with a smattering of Vikings in Yorkshire.

What the 'Me Loves Evvybody' people who make these comparisons forget is that this 'integration' --- as with nearly all meetings of peoples, but especially in Britain --- was only resolved after massive bloodshed and violence and oppression between each two parties. This has yet to be achieved with the mass immigration that started in the 1940s.

But it will.


Claverhouse :ph34r:

[Ferrus]

What the 'Me Loves Evvybody' people who make these comparisons forget is that this 'integration' --- as with nearly all meetings of peoples, but especially in Britain --- was only resolved after massive bloodshed and violence and oppression between each two parties. This has yet to be achieved with the mass immigration that started in the 1940s.

But it will.


Claverhouse :ph34r:
What of the Hugenots?

Although Niall Ferguson seemed to be intimating what you have been brazenly stating in his last work. Europe wide indeed.

[Claverhouse]

I anticipated this. From the coming of the Normans, who were virtually no different in blood or culture from the Saxons and other Norse, and the steady influx of Flemings, Germans and other western Europeans, who again were little different, the Huguenots were the next large number of immigrants --- but again they were our neighbours and again war and strife induced them here courtesy of Louis XIV's persecution. Only the wars continuing between us and France esconced them here, without persecution from the natives, in that they were the allies against catholic France.

From the 1880s an influx of Ashkenazi jews came here, ( previous jewish immigration was mainly Sephardi ) but not in large numbers; and again because of war elsewhere, and again they were just Europeans again.


Claverhouse :ph34r:

[PenguinHunter]

And, frankly, I think your anger is completely inappropriate, and indicates your core motive here...hatred for the USA and its institutions.

:lol:

Don't mean to butt in here or anything but what a weird conclusion! It came out of nowhere and made me laugh. "What? You don't like my shirt! But. . . but it's red and blue! America hater!"

I won't speak on his behalf but I'm pretty sure ptGatsby doesn't "hate the USA and it's institutions." Sure certain things the government does, certain things Americans do, and certain things corporate America does. . . but, like. . . what? They weren't even talking about the USA. . . To vehemently disagree with a Westerner on the nature of freedom is to hate America?

(Yes, I've read the other threads you two were debating in and no, he doesn't show the signs of a budding terrorist America-hater there either.)

[ptGatsby]

And, frankly, I think your anger is completely inappropriate, and indicates your core motive here... hatred for the USA and its institutions.


Wait, we were talking about the US? Wasn't this about Britain? Amazing... that rhetoric was badly placed. Please wait until I bash the US - I'm sure it'll happen at some point - to include this.

I have to agree... I have no idea where this came from. But I guess nationalism knows no bounds...

[kuranes]

Its not just his name that has "bugs" in it, you know. :)

[MyDogHasFleas]

Wait, we were talking about the US? Wasn't this about Britain? Amazing... that rhetoric was badly placed. Please wait until I bash the US - I'm sure it'll happen at some point - to include this.

I have to agree... I have no idea where this came from. But I guess nationalism knows no bounds...

your stats of 20 million violent crimes per year was about Britain??? wow. My bad I guess.

What about my complaint that you are equating crime and terrorism, when they are very different things with very different goals?

[MyDogHasFleas]

:lol:

Don't mean to butt in here or anything but what a weird conclusion! It came out of nowhere and made me laugh. "What? You don't like my shirt! But. . . but it's red and blue! America hater!"

I won't speak on his behalf but I'm pretty sure ptGatsby doesn't "hate the USA and it's institutions." Sure certain things the government does, certain things Americans do, and certain things corporate America does. . . but, like. . . what? They weren't even talking about the USA. . . To vehemently disagree with a Westerner on the nature of freedom is to hate America?

(Yes, I've read the other threads you two were debating in and no, he doesn't show the signs of a budding terrorist America-hater there either.)


Yeah so it was a bit over the top... sorry.