Da Vinci Code vs Danish Cartoons

[Stoned_Rider]

Yep, you guessed right. Yet another Islam-bashing thread by Stoned_Rider, filled with typical hate speech and irrational Islamophobia :)

Here is what Yusuf al-Qaradawi, a supposedly prominent moderate cleric, also the founder of IslamOnline.net, had to say about the Danish cartoons issue:


"The nation must rage in anger. It is told that Imam Al-Shafi' said: "Whoever was angered and did not rage is a jackass." We are not a nation of jackasses. We are not jackasses for riding, but lions that roar. We are lions that zealously protect their dens, and avenge affronts to their sanctities. We are not a nation of jackasses. We are a nation that should rage for the sake of Allah, His Prophet, and His book. We are the nation of Muhammad, and we must never accept the degradation of our religion...

The second warning I direct at the Westerners, the Americans, and the Europeans who follow them, who claim to be fighting terrorism, and struggling against violence throughout the world.

"I say to them: Your silence over such crimes, which offend the Prophet of Islam and insult his great nation, is what begets violence, generates terrorism, and makes the terrorists say: Our governments are doing nothing, and we must avenge our Prophet ourselves. This is what creates terrorism and begets violence...

MEMRI TV (http://www.memritv.org/Search.asp?ACT=S9&P1=1026)

Do you think such a reaction is justified? I have a strong suspicion that if the Da Vinci Code was aimed at Muhammad and Islam, Dan Brown and Tom Hanks would have probably been dead by now (Remember Theo van Gogh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theo_van_Gogh_%28film_director%29)?).

In contrast, Christian protests against the Da Vinci Code, which I personally believe to be much more offensive to Christianity than the Danish cartoons were to Islam, have been largely peaceful and definitely did not involve the burning down of embassies etc. I found the following quote from a Christian to be absolutely spot on:

"Those who blaspheme Christ and get away with it are exploiting the Christian readiness to forgive and to love even those who insult us. There are some other religions which if you insult their founder they will not be just talking. They will make it painfully clear to you,"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Da_Vinci_Code_%28film%29

My point? Well it's things like these that really make me wonder why some people insist that Christianity is just as bad as Islam, when it is painfully obvious that there is only one religion in the world today that openly calls for the murder of its critics.

[charred_heart]

Yep, you guessed right. Yet another Islam-bashing thread by Stoned_Rider, filled with typical hate speech and irrational Islamophobia :)

Here is what Yusuf al-Qaradawi, a supposedly prominent moderate cleric, also the founder of IslamOnline.net, had to say about the Danish cartoons issue:

I didn't hear him inciting violence in that clip. He was calling for laws that protect the Islamic religion against character assassination, and stated that muslims should boycott European products in protest. In the end, while his opinion may not be acceptable to everyone he has not gone over the line and encouraged violence as a response.

stoned_rider, your perception is being warped by your feelings. I suggest you work at being more impartial, if you value accuracy and problem solving.

[Wounded Townsmen]

Both groups sound pretty intolerant to criticism. Either way, you don't gain a higher moral ground simply by being the lesser of two evils.

I never did understand the Christian beef with "The Da Vinci Code" though - is a not a fiction novel?

[booyalab]

I never did understand the Christian beef with "The Da Vinci Code" though - is a not a fiction novel?

have you seen/heard any Dan Brown interviews? He didn't think he was writing the next Harry Potter.
the beef is that it portends to be based on fact, and while it is based on heresies that exist, they're still heretical

[booyalab]

Do you think such a reaction is justified? I have a strong suspicion that if the Da Vinci Code was aimed at Muhammad and Islam, Dan Brown and Tom Hanks would have probably been dead by now (Remember Theo van Gogh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theo_van_Gogh_%28film_director%29)?).
I agree

[sdalek]

Reason has always existed, but not always in a reasonable form.
Karl Marx


Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people.
Karl Marx, Critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Right

[NoahFence]

have you seen/heard any Dan Brown interviews? He didn't think he was writing the next Harry Potter.

The irony here is, those fundies also have a beef with Harry Potter.

[sandwich]

I never did understand the Christian beef with "The Da Vinci Code" though - is a not a fiction novel?

I didn't like it for the same reason I dislike most historical fiction. Some people believe everything they read without researching or questioning. That goes for a lot of Christians, too.

[messk]

Dan Brown took most of his facts form the book "The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail" by Michael Baigent, Richard Leigh, and Henry Lincoln. This book was published in 1982. He just wrapped it in a novel. By the way "Il pendolo di Foucault" by Umberto Eco is way better and more intelligent conspiracy novel.

As for the danish cartoons, they are cartoons. End of story.

[charred_heart]

Dan Brown took most of his facts form the book "The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail" by Michael Baigent, Richard Leigh, and Henry Lincoln. This book was published in 1982. He just wrapped it in a novel. By the way "Il pendolo di Foucault" by Umberto Eco is way better and more intelligent conspiracy novel.

As for the danish cartoons, they are cartoons. End of story. If we are going to talk about the cleric's speech mentioned by stoned_rider, it's not about the cartoons per se. the man's speech was addressing the current situation muslims are in. I agree with him that muslims have to wake up and stand up for themeselves. During the time of the cartoons, the muslim world was divided between rioters and numb bystanders. The majority of the muslim world feels that what's going on in it's name is none of their concern; they have other things to worry about, like food and housing.
We should be enraged at what's happening to us as muslims and at how we are seen. We should be enraged that there are muslims who abuse their relations or plot to kill civilians throughout the world while the rest of the muslim world acts like it's not happening. We should be enraged that we have lost our standing among other people, that we are seen as nothing but destructive.

The cleric's speech was a change from the usual incoherent drivel released by government financed clerics or hate filled mania that comes from the radical ones.

[Heleuiski]

Yep, you guessed right. Yet another Islam-bashing thread by Stoned_Rider, filled with typical hate speech and irrational Islamophobia :)

Here is what Yusuf al-Qaradawi, a supposedly prominent moderate cleric, also the founder of IslamOnline.net, had to say about the Danish cartoons issue:


MEMRI TV (http://www.memritv.org/Search.asp?ACT=S9&P1=1026)

Do you think such a reaction is justified? I have a strong suspicion that if the Da Vinci Code was aimed at Muhammad and Islam, Dan Brown and Tom Hanks would have probably been dead by now (Remember Theo van Gogh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theo_van_Gogh_%28film_director%29)?).

In contrast, Christian protests against the Da Vinci Code, which I personally believe to be much more offensive to Christianity than the Danish cartoons were to Islam, have been largely peaceful and definitely did not involve the burning down of embassies etc. I found the following quote from a Christian to be absolutely spot on:

"Those who blaspheme Christ and get away with it are exploiting the Christian readiness to forgive and to love even those who insult us. There are some other religions which if you insult their founder they will not be just talking. They will make it painfully clear to you,"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Da_Vinci_Code_%28film%29

My point? Well it's things like these that really make me wonder why some people insist that Christianity is just as bad as Islam, when it is painfully obvious that there is only one religion in the world today that openly calls for the murder of its critics.

Interesting post, also what would happen if monty python made a spoof of teh Prophet Mohammeds life?

I have a huge problem with a religion that will not tolerate any criticism or mockery. It's unhealthy.

[charred_heart]

I have a huge problem with a religion that will not tolerate any criticism or mockery. It's unhealthy.criticism I can handle, but there are certain kinds of satire that do not sit well with me. Depicting blacks as savages or animals, jews as inhuman, or muslims as mad killers. That kind of satire is dangerous, it's an affirmation of negative perceptions and leads to their empowerment. This kind of satire says to communities that are already on the edge of their tolerance "It's okay to think of them as non-human, it's okay to grind them down"

[Serotonin]

I'm not religious, so I don't feel qualified to vote in this poll.

But if you think I am, then I would say "neither".

I don't know about others, but it was clear to me that the cartoon drawers in question were directing their criticisms at Islamic terrorists, not all Muslims. Mohammed with a bomb in his turban doesn't mean Mohammed put it there himself, it suggests that others put it there without him knowing. Islam is being corrupted from within, in much the same way that, say the Westboro Baptist Church or abortion clinic destroyers are corrupting Christianity. It's just that the former proportion is significant, and the latter negligible.

That said, moderate Muslims have the power to turn their backs on these radical clerics, but to convince the West that they are serious, this back-turning must be conspicuous, resolute and devoid of sympathy.

[charred_heart]

That said, moderate Muslims have the power to turn their backs on these radical clerics, but to convince the West that they are serious, this back-turning must be conspicuous, resolute and devoid of sympathy.

I define a radical cleric as one who condones killing for a number of current or made up aims he wishes to achieve. A radical cleric also is one with no concept of the individual's rights; all must succumb to one rule of law - naturally according to his teachings. I don't label a cleric a radical based on his method of sermonising but on the content of his sermons.

Many muslims are aware of who the radical clerics are, but right now are putting their heads in the sand rather than turning their backs.

[Heleuiski]

Many muslims are aware of who the radical clerics are, but right now are putting their heads in the sand rather than turning their backs.

That's the problem CH.

:(

[ration_the_poor]

By the way "Il pendolo di Foucault" by Umberto Eco is way better and more intelligent conspiracy novel.

Couldn't agree more - DaVinci code was a pretty poor book which aimed at the lowest common denominator and only became popular because of the hype generated in some quarters (like the church)

[charred_heart]

That's the problem CH.

:(which is why they are a nation of jackasses right now :dont:

This reminds me of another problem in the muslim world: lack of education.
The first time I was struck by this was when a Saudi cleric released a fatwa proclaiming that the world was flat...
At the beginning of the Israel-Lebanon crisis, a well-respected political analyst speculated on Al Jazeera that Lebanon was now a testing ground for the IDF. By testing ground, he was obviously referring to strategy but arab populations took it to mean experimental weapons. Arabs now believed that the IDF was secretly releasing biological and chemical weapons in Lebanon, left behind in the rubble for the returning refugees to find.

This... disorientation that arabs are living in is a big problem. A cleric's message that muslims should be lions and not jackasses will ofcourse be taken as a green light to burn, even if it was a figure of speech likening apathy to the jackass and involvement to the lion.

I have not read enough about this particular Egyptian cleric to suspect him of allegiance to Al Qaeda (he was one of the clerics that denounced them in 2001 - which means nothing as all clerics did at the time), but I won't do the opposite and just label him as one because he looks "ugly". The one time I remember seeing him on TV, I immediately labelled him as a radical - he looks the part. But he discussed abuse against women in Egypt and was an advocate not just for fighting abuse but the phenomenon of older Egyptian men divorcing women they were married to for decades without any compensation. I was sorry I thought that of him after that show.

[Heleuiski]

Couldn't agree more - DaVinci code was a pretty poor book which aimed at the lowest common denominator and only became popular because of the hype generated in some quarters (like the church)

It wasn't that bad.

It was pulp fiction, like Grisham.

Sometimes I really enjoy reading mainstream commerical fiction as it contrasts nicely with the highbrow stuff I read.

[Heleuiski]

This reminds me of another problem in the muslim world: lack of education.

Lack of education, including eduation about religion, political systems, geography, history etc etc, yes that is a problem.

I remember the Fatwa against Salman Rushdie.
It's scary that you can't speak you mind in case someone tries to kill you, or throw you in jail.

This also goes for western freedoms also.


As a result, Hitoshi Igarashi, the Japanese translator of the book was stabbed to death in July 1991, Ettore Capriolo, the Italian translator, was seriously injured in a stabbing the same month, and William Nygaard, the publisher in Norway, survived an attempted assassination in Oslo in October 1993. On February 14, 2006, the Iranian state news agency reported that the fatwa will remain in place permanently. [1]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Satanic_Verses_%28novel%29

Don't get me wrong CH. I actually prefer Islam as a religion than Christianity or Judaism, because it proports God to be the unknown and it is important not to deify human beings or idol worship, however there is still a lot of problems with it. Do you agree?

[LongSilence]

It wasn't that bad.

It was pulp fiction, like Grisham.

Yeah, but masses people aren't going on "The Firm" tours like Da Vinci Code fans are doing when they visit Italy and France.

The funny thing is that the men who inspired the whole thing, claiming knowledge and membership of a Children of Christ secret society since revealed that it was a hoax. But that's irrelevant to people who love a good conspiracy, especially one that involves that good old "brainwashing" instituition that is the Catholic Church.

Looking at the Muslim outrage at the Danish cartoons it makes me wonder: was recourse does a Muslim have who disagrees with the excessive beliefs of some of his fellow followers of Islam? How far can moderates go to distance themselves from the radicals? Can they realistically go so far as to set up their own partitions and / or churches to demonstrate emphatically that there is a difference between Muslims?

Charred Heart?

[charred_heart]

Lack of education, including eduation about religion, political systems, geography, history etc etc, yes that is a problem.

I remember the Fatwa against Salman Rushdie.
It's scary that you can't speak you mind in case someone tries to kill you, or throw you in jail.

This also goes for western freedoms also.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Satanic_Verses_%28novel%29

Don't get me wrong CH. I actually prefer Islam as a religion than Christianity or Judaism, because it proports God to be the unknown and it is important not to deify human beings or idol worship, however there is still a lot of problems with it. Do you agree?these kinds of fatwas are based more on tribal law than anything else. The clerics who release don't question their tribal values, they just lok for a way to work them into the sharia system. Their countries are paying the price, most predominantly muslim countries have not seen a slowdown in their stagnation since these clerics took hold.

[charred_heart]

Looking at the Muslim outrage at the Danish cartoons it makes me wonder: was recourse does a Muslim have who disagrees with the excessive beliefs of some of his fellow followers of Islam? How far can moderates go to distance themselves from the radicals? Can they realistically go so far as to set up their own partitions and / or churches to demonstrate emphatically that there is a difference between Muslims?

Charred Heart?the important thing for a muslim to remember is that there is no authority in Islam. If a cleric decides to relaese a fatwa that a female activist should have her head cut off, every muslim must remember that he has no power other than the strength of his case. Muslims have forgotten that they can challenge these people on their ethics, and this was done deliberately by successive Islamic emperors and kings through the centuries.

[charred_heart]

Don't get me wrong CH. I actually prefer Islam as a religion than Christianity or Judaism, because it proports God to be the unknown and it is important not to deify human beings or idol worship, however there is still a lot of problems with it. Do you agree?Yes. I am yet to conclude whether the problems are due to the contents of the religion or the way it was taught. This is no easy task for a muslim, as I am required to look into everything not just an overview. The texts Sahara and Stoned_Rider mentioned for example. I'm sorry to say that I backed off of them for now because trying to find sources affected my performance at work, even though this is more important I had to stop for now to find a balance.

[LongSilence]

CH, do you happen to have any published declarations given by recognised moderate Muslim clerics? I, for one am as tired of hearing only the militant Islamic diatribes of intolerance as those made by Christian idiots. I'm curious to see how the intelligent and the sympathetic have reacted to this 'conflict of cultures' and how they have been treated by their more aggressive fellows.

[Heleuiski]

Yeah, but masses people aren't going on "The Firm" tours like Da Vinci Code fans are doing when they visit Italy and France.

The funny thing is that the men who inspired the whole thing, claiming knowledge and membership of a Children of Christ secret society since revealed that it was a hoax. But that's irrelevant to people who love a good conspiracy, especially one that involves that good old "brainwashing" instituition that is the Catholic Church.

Looking at the Muslim outrage at the Danish cartoons it makes me wonder: was recourse does a Muslim have who disagrees with the excessive beliefs of some of his fellow followers of Islam? How far can moderates go to distance themselves from the radicals? Can they realistically go so far as to set up their own partitions and / or churches to demonstrate emphatically that there is a difference between Muslims?

Charred Heart?

Good point LS.

And actually there are a lot of tours for different books.
Kefallonia a Greek island is cashing in still, because of the Louis De Berniers book "Captain Corelli's Mandolin".


Captain Corelli's Mandolin
During the summer of 2000 the town of Sami received a Hollywood facelift as filming took place for Captain Corelli's Mandolin set in war-time Kefalonia. Anyone who has read the book will delight in visiting some of the places mentioned in the book. Captain Corelli's Kefalonia

http://www.agni.gr/kefalonia_travel_guide/Kefalonia_-_Nikolas_Cage_-_Read_on_and_News/

[Heleuiski]

CH, do you happen to have any published declarations given by recognised moderate Muslim clerics? I, for one am as tired of hearing only the militant Islamic diatribes of intolerance as those made by Christian idiots. I'm curious to see how the intelligent and the sympathetic have reacted to this 'conflict of cultures' and how they have been treated by their more aggressive fellows.

Yes it would be so lovely to hear some moderate Muslim voices.

[Heleuiski]

The muslim world has done so much for science and mathematics and philosophy.. and yet we hear none of this.

It's sad that all we hear in the west is negative diatribe.

We don't see the warm hospitality, teh strong family values, teh gorgeous food, the poets,the movie directors...

:(

[zhang_bob]

I have not seen the Danish cartoons, but the Da Vinci Code is the most badly written book I have read. I am of the belief you have to have less than 64 brain cells to believe anything in the Da Vinci Code.

[Stoned_Rider]

these kinds of fatwas are based more on tribal law than anything else. The clerics who release don't question their tribal values, they just lok for a way to work them into the sharia system.
Hmm, or maybe it could have been based on the examples set out by Muhammad himself, which prove that murdering critics of Islam is fully condoned by Sharia.


Asmā bint Marwān (Arabic: عصماء بنت مروان, namely "'Asmā the daughter of Marwān") was a poet who lived in Hijaz in medieval Arabia. According to the Ahadith, she was killed on the orders of the Islamic prophet Muhammad for composing poetry that satirized him.

Asma wrote a politically charged poem against Muhammad and his army; this poem is retold in the Sira. Upon hearing the poem, Muhammad decided to have her killed. The assassin is said to have murdered Asma with knives while she was sleeping alongside her children.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asma_bint_Marwan


Abu 'Afak (Arabic: ابو عفك, c. 7th century) was a Jewish poet who lived in the Hijaz region (today Saudi Arabia). Abu 'Afak did not convert to Islam and was vocal about his opposition to Muhammad. He became a significant political enemy of Muhammad and was assassinated.

As an elderly man, Abu 'Afak Arwan wrote a politically charged poem against Muhammad and his followers that is preserved in the Sira. Muhammad silenced him through assassination.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_%27Afak


Ka'b ibn al-Ashraf (d. 624) was a chief of the Jewish tribe of Banu Nadir and a poet, who was assassinated by an order of Muhammad.


Muhammad called upon his followers to kill Ka'b, and Muhammad ibn Maslama offered his services, collecting four others, including a foster-brother of Ka'b. By pretending to have turned against Muhammad, they enticed Ka'b out of his fortress on a moonlight night for what was supposed to be negotiations of Ka'b's sale of food to them. When the assassins went out on their mission, Muhammad accompanied them for much of their way. After Ka'b walked out of his fortress to meet Muhammad ibn Maslama and his companions, they attacked Ka'b and killed him in spite of his vigorous resistance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ka%27b_ibn_al-Ashraf

Note how Muhammad's companions used deception tactics to trick Ka'b into trusting them.

Also note how some Muslims are so embarassed by these stories, to the extent that they consider them to be fabricated, despite the fact that they are recorded in the earliest available biography of Muhammad, which was of course written by Muslims!

[Heleuiski]

Hmm, or maybe it could have been based on the examples set out by Muhammad himself, which prove that murdering critics of Islam is fully condoned by Sharia.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asma_bint_Marwan


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_%27Afak


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ka%27b_ibn_al-Ashraf

Note how Muhammad's companions used deception tactics to trick Ka'b into trusting them.

Also note how some Muslims are so embarassed by these stories, to the extent that they consider them to be fabricated, despite the fact that they are recorded in the earliest available biography of Muhammad, which was of course written by Muslims!

You are soooo a CIA agent.

:D

Jesus said some silly things too. But... we have to look at it in context and in historical context.

[Heleuiski]

I have not seen the Danish cartoons, but the Da Vinci Code is the most badly written book I have read. I am of the belief you have to have less than 64 brain cells to believe anything in the Da Vinci Code.

I want to see the Danish cartoons. Has anyone seen them?

Can you paste them here please?

[LongSilence]

Jesus said some silly things too. But... we have to look at it in context and in historical context.

Really? I'm curious...

[Stoned_Rider]

I'm sorry to say that I backed off of them for now because trying to find sources affected my performance at work, even though this is more important I had to stop for now to find a balance.
That's ok dude, I understand. Take all the time you need. But remember, this is the most important thing you'll be doing in your life. You are dealing here with a belief system that tries to control every single aspect of your life, including which hand to wipe your arse with ;)

[Heleuiski]

That's ok dude, I understand. Take all the time you need. But remember, this is the most important thing you'll be doing in your life. You are dealing here with a belief system that tries to control every single aspect of your life, including which hand to wipe your arse with ;)

Indeed, it is important.

[Heleuiski]

Wow I can't find any crappy Jesus quotes.

“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

~ Jesus

“The kingdom of God is within you.”

~ Jesus

“Let anyone among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone.”

~ Jesus

“Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things.”

~ Jesus

That's why he is my hero.

[Heleuiski]

Can anyone find crappy Mohammed quotes?

[Stoned_Rider]

You are soooo a CIA agent.

:D

Jesus said some silly things too. But... we have to look at it in context and in historical context.
Helenski, Muslims are explicitly instructed in the Koran to follow the example set out by Muhammad. He is described in the Koran as "the best of all creation", "a mercy to all mankind", and a person of "sublime morals". Muslims are instructed to derive all their morality and ethics from Muhammad, his sayings and his actions.

Mohammad Bouyeri, the man who slaughtered Theo van Gogh, was doing just that. He is technically a good Muslim. He told the court that he had absolutely no regrets because he was following his prophet's example, and if given the chance he would not hesitate to kill critics of Islam again.

[Heleuiski]

I can't find any crappy Mohammed quotes.

Patience is the key to contentment.
Mohammed

Riches are not from abundance of worldly goods, but from a contented mind.
Mohammed

To overcome evil with good is good, to resist evil by evil is evil.
Mohammed

[Heleuiski]

This one means a lot to me:-

Even as the fingers of the two hands are equal, so are human beings equal to one another. No one has any right, nor any preference to claim over another. You are brothers. (Final Sermon of Muhammad)

[Heleuiski]

Do not turn away a poor man...even if all you can give is half a date. If you love the poor and bring them near you...God will bring you near Him on the Day of Resurrection.
(Al-Tirmidhi, Hadith 1376)

Not all Hadith are bad.

Daste shoma dart nakone. (Farsi)

[LongSilence]

Wow I can't find any crappy Jesus quotes.

?Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.?

~ Jesus

?The kingdom of God is within you.?

~ Jesus

?Let anyone among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone.?

~ Jesus

?Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable?if anything is excellent or praiseworthy?think about such things.?

~ Jesus

That's why he is my hero.

That's why I was curious- it's quite hard to actually find much to criticise with what Jesus is said to have said and done.

The Religious Right actually have to spend a lot of their time calling upon the Letters or going further back to the old Testament for stuff they can twist into things to support their anger and hatred.

The slight problem I have with Mohammed is that he was more a product of his time and thus had to resort to arms. Jesus, when you consider his place in history, really is seemingly anachronistic- an egalitarian pacificist with no apparent desires for any power whatsoever.

[Heleuiski]

Helenski, Muslims are explicitly instructed in the Koran to follow the example set out by Muhammad. He is described in the Koran as "the best of all creation", "a mercy to all mankind", and a person of "sublime morals". Muslims are instructed to derive all their morality and ethics from Muhammad, his sayings and his actions.

Mohammad Bouyeri, the man who slaughtered Theo van Gogh, was doing just that. He is technically a good Muslim. He told the court that he had absolutely no regrets because he was following his prophet's example, and if given the chance he would not hesitate to kill critics of Islam again.

Stoned... it just sounds like the kind of thing that christians were doing years ago.

[Stoned_Rider]

Helenski, not all hadith is bad, but does that make it OK for Muhammad to murder his critics, setting out an example for his followers? What exactly is your point? That Muhammad was a good person despite the fact that he murdered his critics?
I can find good quotes by Saddam and Hitler as well, does that automatically make them good human beings?

As for the "all humans are equal" quote, here is what he actually said:

All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over a black, nor a black has any superiority over a white - except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood. Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim, which belongs to a fellow Muslim unless it was given freely and willingly. Do not therefore, do injustice to yourselves.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Farewell_Sermon

Basically what he meant was that the only way we can judge a human is by how good a muslim he is.

PS - Those Jesus quotes are hardly going to make anyone grab a knife and go on a killing spree!

[Heleuiski]

That's why I was curious- it's quite hard to actually find much to criticise with what Jesus is said to have said and done.

The Religious Right actually have to spend a lot of their time calling upon the Letters or going further back to the old Testament for stuff they can twist into things to support their anger and hatred.

The slight problem I have with Mohammed is that he was more a product of his time and thus had to resort to arms. Jesus, when you consider his place in history, really is seemingly anachronistic- an egalitarian pacificist with no apparent desires for any power whatsoever.

You are right...but that is because in Mohammeds time he had to deal with incredibly waring factions.

We have to look to the OT to find really silly things. But that is because it was written further back.

[Heleuiski]

I can see a lot of similarities between mohammed and jesus. Can you?

[Stoned_Rider]

Helenski, are you a robot of some sort? What's with all the irrelevant generic feel-good answers??

[charred_heart]

Helenski, not all hadith is bad, but does that make it OK for Muhammad to murder his critics, setting out an example for his followers? What exactly is your point? That Muhammad was a good person despite the fact that he murdered his critics?
I can find good quotes by Saddam and Hitler as well, does that automatically make them good human beings?

As for the "all humans are equal" quote, here is what he actually said:

All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over a black, nor a black has any superiority over a white - except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood. Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim, which belongs to a fellow Muslim unless it was given freely and willingly. Do not therefore, do injustice to yourselves.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Farewell_Sermon

Basically what he meant was that the only way we can judge a human is by how good a muslim he is.

PS - Those Jesus quotes are hardly going to make anyone grab a knife and go on a killing spree!If I were to choose the one saving grace of Islamic teachings, it would be this one - that it states that people can only be differentated by the good they do in this world.

Certain muslims today feel it is good to murder people. That is the root of the problem, where did they get this ?

[Heleuiski]

Helenski, are you a robot of some sort? What's with all the irrelevant generic feel-good answers??

Mohammed was not a bad man.. Like Jesus.. it is the men that follow them that pour poison into the hearts of men.


It is the followers..they warp the teachings.

[Heleuiski]

The heart must be pure... to love humanity, to love the universe, no matter what the teachings say.

Love and honour the universe.

[charred_heart]

CH, do you happen to have any published declarations given by recognised moderate Muslim clerics? I, for one am as tired of hearing only the militant Islamic diatribes of intolerance as those made by Christian idiots. I'm curious to see how the intelligent and the sympathetic have reacted to this 'conflict of cultures' and how they have been treated by their more aggressive fellows.There is one, Amro Khalid. I'll look for some of what he said.

[Stoned_Rider]

Mohammed was not a bad man.. Like Jesus.. it is the men that follow them that pour poison into the hearts of men.


It is the followers..they warp the teachings.
LOL!

Stoned_Rider: Muhammad murdered his critics!
Helenski: Jesus said some silly stuff too!!
Stoned_Rider: Huh? But, Muhammad murdered his critics! Muslims are instructed to follow his example!
Helenski: I like Muhammad! You know, he said some pretty decent stuff.
Stoned_Rider: WTF!! He fucking murdered his critics!!!!!!!!
Helenski: Muhammad was a good man :)

[Heleuiski]

Certain muslims today feel it is good to murder people. That is the root of the problem, where did they get this ?

Yes and where did the christian catholica get their hatred?

Help me out here... the inquisition?

[Heleuiski]

Where is the Danish Cartoons?

[Heleuiski]

I have no answers I ask questions

[messk]

I want to see the Danish cartoons. Has anyone seen them?

Can you paste them here please?

You can see them if you type "danish cartoons" on wikipedia. I still can't post links. Personally I don't find them that insulting. They are more a satirical critique to muslim extremists than an insult to Muhammed.

[Heleuiski]

I have not seen the Danish cartoons, but the Da Vinci Code is the most badly written book I have read. I am of the belief you have to have less than 64 brain cells to believe anything in the Da Vinci Code.

OK ZB give me more brain cells. Hah.

[Heleuiski]

LOL!

Stoned_Rider: Muhammad murdered his critics!
Helenski: Jesus said some silly stuff too!!
Stoned_Rider: Huh? But, Muhammad murdered his critics! Muslims are instructed to follow his example!
Helenski: I like Muhammad! You know, he said some pretty decent stuff.
Stoned_Rider: WTF!! He fucking murdered his critics!!!!!!!!
Helenski: Muhammad was a good man :)


Why are you laughing?

[Stoned_Rider]

Why are you laughing?
Coz you're funny :)

[LongSilence]

Yes and where did the christian catholica get their hatred?

Help me out here... the inquisition?

Persecution probably helped. And then believing passionately in spreading their message they became connected with the imperialism of the Romans. Its relatively easy to get similarly cultured with relatable 'intelligence' to see the 'power' of your philosophy but when taking it to other peoples a certain element of offering religion with culture came into it, not to mention the need to criticise and 'eliminate' the people's prevalent pagan beliefs. As time went on Christianity gained a certain materialistic side too, mainly to aid with their efforts to help and 'instruct' the world but also to further the appearance of majesty.

And dare I say it, the Islamic "invasion" didn't help. When enemies attack at the borders all institutions exert thier own authority to 'suppress' internal sympathy with the enemy.

Sometimes I wonder if it could be possible for a similar character to come and shake up and rejuvenate the religious world with new spiritual ideas.

[Heleuiski]

Sometimes I wonder if it could be possible for a similar character to come and shake up and rejuvenate the religious world with new spiritual ideas.

I'm waiting for the next pure heart.

:)

[Heleuiski]

Christians wiped out all deists.
And we spread disease, we fucked up the world so much more than the muslims didn't we?

[LongSilence]

Yes. But Christians also shaped the world far more, demonstrating a certain flexibility and adaptability together with its fervour and its unifying message at its basis.

And let's face it, the Deists would have largely done the same, as would followers of Mohammed. Christians just did things better, including "fucking things up".

[Heleuiski]

Yes. But Christians also shaped the world far more, demonstrating a certain flexibility and adaptability together with its fervour and its unifying message at its basis.

And let's face it, the Deists would have largely done the same, as would followers of Mohammed. Christians just did things better, including "fucking things up".

And what about the crusades?

[Heleuiski]

Jesus was a beautiful man.

it is the crap that came after.

Same with Mohammed.

[messk]

Yes. But Christians also shaped the world far more, demonstrating a certain flexibility and adaptability together with its fervour and its unifying message at its basis.

And let's face it, the Deists would have largely done the same, as would followers of Mohammed. Christians just did things better, including "fucking things up".

Longsilence, that's not really true. Christian countries shaped the world after enlightement in the 18th century. Before that, most human progres was made by either pagans (ancient greece and rome), or other religions (ancient china). Also Islam during the Islamic golden age (8th - 13th century). Thanks to islam we now have ancient greek text (Plato, Socrates etc.), the decimal system, and alot of astronomical theories etc...

[LongSilence]

And what about the crusades?

A very powerful display of both religions unifying in order to wage war on one another (and on elements of themselves, and of course on the Jews. Can't forget them). In the end, however, they were really just the result of powerful men in Europe jostling for more power.

[Heleuiski]

Whats important is feeling the beauty of living.

[Heleuiski]

To think of roses and gardens inside is bad,
to think of seas and mountains is good.
Read and write without rest,
and I also advise weaving
and making mirrors."
(from 'Some Advice', 1949)

Nakim Hikmet.

[LongSilence]

Longsilence, that's not really true. Christian countries shaped the world after enlightement in the 18th century. Before that, most human progres was made by either pagans (ancient greece and rome), or other religions (ancient china). Also Islam during the Islamic golden age (8th - 13th century). Thanks to islam we now have ancient greek text (Plato, Socrates etc.), the decimal system, and alot of astronomical theories etc...

"Progress" is a very loose idea. How do we view history? From the view of the winners. The "centre of the world" on maps is still Greenwich, England. Most of the world has European languages, or their derivatives, as their first language. In the past all cultures held their sway but it was Christian Europe that was the first to bring it all together. Some cultures it has subsumed almost completely, the rest it has undeniably shaped.

[messk]

"Progress" is a very loose idea. How do we view history? From the view of the winners. The "centre of the world" on maps is still Greenwich, England. Most of the world has European languages, or their derivatives, as their first language. In the past all cultures held their sway but it was Christian Europe that was the first to bring it all together. Some cultures it has subsumed almost completely, the rest it has undeniably shaped.

The "centre of the world" is always in the currently most influental culture. In the past it's been in Rome. They were the winners. After England gain supremacy on sea and colonized half the world, they were the winners. The center was England. Today you could argue the center is USA, as they are the currently only superpower, and very influential in exporting their culture. In a few decades the center will probably be China and India. They will be the winners.

As I said, Europe got influential during Age of enlightement. Not because it was christian, but despite of it. The whole point of enlightement was to see think beyond taboos of faith...

[LongSilence]

The "centre of the world" is always in the currently most influental culture. In the past it's been in Rome. They were the winners. After England gain supremacy on sea and colonized half the world, they were the winners. The center was England. Today you could argue the center is USA, as they are the currently only superpower, and very influential in exporting their culture. In a few decades the center will probably be China and India. They will be the winners.

As I said, Europe got influential during Age of enlightement. Not because it was christian, but despite of it. The whole point of enlightement was to see think beyond taboos of faith...

Extrapolation on the future is a risky business. Only last century superpowers waxed and waned: Germany, Britain, Russia... To presume knowledge about which will hold sway in 50 years and thus subtly and not so subtly influence the focus of historical thought is largely fruitless.

Christianity, for one, encouraged a passion to 'educate' other cultures. Can we imagine a colonizing Europe without Christianity? Faith has historically been, and continues to be, combined with passionate belief and will. Without it Europe would likely have become attached to some other unifying religion or otherwise perhaps failed to become the influential global power it now is.

But thats it: who knows? I only know that the countries which have shaped our current perception of the world we live in were and are largely Christian.

[messk]

Extrapolation on the future is a risky business. Only last century superpowers waxed and waned: Germany, Britain, Russia... To presume knowledge about which will hold sway in 50 years and thus subtly and not so subtly influence the focus of historical thought is largely fruitless.

True, that's why I used the word "probably" and not "surely". :)



Christianity, for one, encouraged a passion to 'educate' other cultures. Can we imagine a colonizing Europe without Christianity? Faith has historically been, and continues to be, combined with passionate belief and will. Without it Europe would likely have become attached to some other unifying religion or otherwise perhaps failed to become the influential global power it now is.

Hmmm, some call it education, others call it genocide. It's all a point of view.



But thats it: who knows? I only know that the countries which have shaped our current perception of the world we live in were and are largely Christian.


I'm european, from a country that is over 90% catolic, so I know what you are saying. But to presume the entire world shares our perception of the world is not wise. Sure, we like to see ourselves as the center of the world, and most important etc. But europe has had the "golden age" and it's not our time anymore. Maybe it will be in the future (I guess it depends on the faith of the European union).

[LongSilence]

True, that's why I used the word "probably" and not "surely". :)



Hmmm, some call it education, others call it genocide. It's all a point of view.



I'm european, from a country that is over 90% catolic, so I know what you are saying. But to presume the entire world shares our perception of the world is not wise. Sure, we like to see ourselves as the center of the world, and most important etc. But europe has had the "golden age" and it's not our time anymore. Maybe it will be in the future (I guess it depends on the faith of the European union).

Still, Christianity has made its mark. After all, arguably the most powerful man in the world at this moment is a delusional passionate Christian. All I said was that Christians have shaped the world more than the other religions. The Ancient Greeks undeniably shaped much of the 'intelligent' thought of the world, or at least got a lot of it done very early on (though its pretty apparent an incredible amount has been lost from their and other developed cultures). However, past Christians mastered the 'art' of spreading their influence and conversion, though no doubt that involved on numerous occasions a fair of genocide as you say.

But every culture has done its share of that and continues to have done so all throughout time. Anyway, like i said my point was only about the history and the culture of the world as the majority currently understands it. For all that future Europeans might well be taught more about the ideas of Sun Tzu and Confucius than those of Machiavelli and Aristotle.

[charred_heart]

CH, do you happen to have any published declarations given by recognised moderate Muslim clerics? I, for one am as tired of hearing only the militant Islamic diatribes of intolerance as those made by Christian idiots. I'm curious to see how the intelligent and the sympathetic have reacted to this 'conflict of cultures' and how they have been treated by their more aggressive fellows.

He's not a cleric, but I respected the man very much. He was a bedoin, but he had very high values and achieved a lot of good. His country is now the richest in the muslim world.

Sheikh Zayed Al-Nahyan (PDF) (http://www.uaeinteract.com/uaeint_misc/pdf_2005/zayed_tribute/zayed.pdf):

His early years in government:

A key task in the early years in Al Ain was that of stimulating the local economy,
which was largely based on agriculture. To do this, he ensured that the ancient
subterranean water channels or falajes (aflaj) were cleaned out, and personally
financed the construction of a new one, taking part in the strenuous labour that
was involved.
He also ordered a revision of local water ownership rights to ensure a more
equitable distribution, surrendering the rights of his own family as an example to
others. The consequent expansion of the area under cultivation in turn generated
more income for the residents of Al Ain, helping to re-establish the oasis as the
predominant market centre for a wide area.



Some of his views:

Women have the right to work everywhere. Islam affords to women their rightful
status, and encourages them to work in all sectors, as long as they are afforded the
appropriate respect. The basic role of women is the upbringing of children, but,
over and above that, we must offer opportunities to a woman who chooses to
perform other functions. What women have achieved in the Emirates in only a
short space of time makes me both happy and content. We sowed our seeds
yesterday, and today the fruit has already begun to appear. We praise God for the
role that women play in our society. It is clear that this role is beneficial for both
present and future generations.

---

I am not imposing change on anyone. That is tyranny. All of us have our opinions,
and these opinions can change. Sometimes we put all opinions together, and then
extract from them a single point of view. This is our democracy.

[Stoned_Rider]

I have great respect for Sheikh Zayed.


His country is now the richest in the muslim world.
Also one of the most secular, relatively speaking of course.

You mentioned Amr Khaled as an example of a moderate cleric. Interesting how the first name that popped in your head is that of an accountant-turned-preacher who does not even have a qualification in Islamic legal science. I am quite familiar with his TV shows and conferences about Islam. True, he does have an appealing style and unique charisma that makes him popular among Muslim youth.

However, I have never heard him tackle the larger issues in Islam such as Sharia law. How do you know for sure that he is a moderate?
My definition of a moderate Muslim is someone who seeks a radical change and reform in Islam, someone who believes that Sharia should be eradicated and totally denounced. The best example I can give is your fellow countryman, Mahmoud Mohammed Taha.

Are you a moderate? Would you honestly be against an Islamic state with Sharia law implemented?


It's not the first time Khaled has found himself on the defensive, but this time even some of his former supporters say they fear he's headed down the path of an "Arab traitor" by attempting to make "a separate peace" with the enemies of Islam. They and other critics say his Western-friendly approach grates against mainstream Muslim opinion

Khaled has a huge following, particularly among Arab youth and women, but he is not a cleric like Qaradawi and never claimed to be, never gave any fatwas (religious rulings) or sought to present himself as a scholar or sheikh. Khaled is and always has been a da'iya, loosely translated as a lay preacher or missionary. Theoretically, every Muslim has a duty to promote da'wa (calling others to Islam) and a da'iya (caller) therefore does not necessarily have to be an alim, or scholar, like Qaradawi, who went through the rigorous traditional training in fiqh and Quranic interpretation. Predictably, though, Khaled has always been criticized by his detractors for being a well-spoken but lightweight amateur-"a marketer of Islam lite.

Qaradawi: Amr Khaled does not hold any qualifications to preach. He is a business school graduate who acquired what he knows from reading and who got his start by way of conversations with friends about things that do not really involve any particular thought or judgment. Like the program Nalqa al-Ahibba (Let Us Meet the Beloved) for instance. The whole thing is about the Companions of the Prophet and heroes of Islam, popular stories, especially amongst the young. What makes him even more attractive to youth is that he is young like them, clean shaven, in regular Western attire, and he speaks in simple language. This has attracted an audience to him, especially as he got his start in Egypt, and Egyptians are drawn to religious discourse. He appeared at a time when people were serious about these matters to a certain extent and there was no one else on the scene. The well-known scholars and preachers were all outside of Egypt, so the stage was set, and he struck while the iron was hot, as the saying goes. People here and there accept him, but he has never issued a fatwa or a legal judgment. Maybe that has helped him.

All this is just to point out that when Khaled is described as apolitical, it's really because he usually tries not to get sucked into any political scrum, especially when it comes to Egypt. He is a master of keeping his statements as vague as possible to avoid taking sides and exciting controversy.


http://www.tbsjournal.com/Wise.htm

[charred_heart]

Are you a moderate? Would you honestly be against an Islamic state with Sharia law implemented?[/URL]

Re sharia law:
I like the way it was implmented in the U.A.E. The way I see it, the only laws in sharia law that I would find manadatory are the ones on murder and rape, and the law of equality (Kassas). Everything else is up to the individual society's values. A good example is polygamy, if it is counter to the values of a muslim society in one country, they are not required to recognise it. Those in that culture that desire polygamy can move to another muslim society where it is acceptable. That's my view.



Mahmoud Mohammed Taha. I remember seeing a Sudanese cleric on T.V who had very good ideas, but I don't remember his name. Do you have a picture or links of Mahmoud Taha?
EDIT: not who I was thinking of. [URL="http://www.answers.com/topic/mahmoud-mohamed-taha"]interstring man nonetheless (http://www.tbsjournal.com/Wise.htm)
sounds like my parents were fans of his, I was brought with the exact ethics he promoted.

It is true that Amro Khalid is not a cleric, but he is informed and pointed out a few facts I didn't know about the prophet. One that comes to mind is when the prophet was at war with mekka he did not include the muslims there into the war on the grounds that it is wrong for muslims to get involved in a war against the inhabitants of a city that took them as guests.

[Stoned_Rider]

sounds like my parents were fans of his, I was brought with the exact ethics he promoted.
That's good to hear :)
It is really sad how his views on denouncing sharia and liberating women were considered heretical by mainstream Muslims and got him labelled as an apostate, which eventually led to his execution. To me, that says a lot about how "moderate" mainstream Muslims really are!

[charred_heart]

That's good to hear :)
It is really sad how his views on denouncing sharia and liberating women were considered heretical by mainstream Muslims and got him labelled as an apostate, which eventually led to his execution. To me, that says a lot about how "moderate" mainstream Muslims really are!no... THOSE guys are nuts.

[charred_heart]

It is really sad how his views on denouncing sharia and liberating women were considered heretical by mainstream Muslims and got him labelled as an apostate, which eventually led to his execution. To me, that says a lot about how "moderate" mainstream Muslims really are!I was talking to my father yesterday about him, and he told me that he wasn't executed by the state. According to my dad a group drove up to his house, he seemed to recognise them because he went with them in their pickup. He was later discovered in a remote area outside Khartoum, his throat slit. He had previously accused Hassan Al Turabi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hassan_al-Turabi), the head of the Brothers of Islam, of plotting to assassinate him. Five years later Al Turabi rose to power under the new Islamic government.

It was a shocking act in the Sudan, something the population was not used. They had a lot of opportunities to get used to it after the Islamic government took hold.

[htb]

For this to be an accurate analysis of Islam, one needs to examine the practices of Muslims who do not live under authoritarian or totalitarian governments, or live in enclaves in Western countries that import and enforce illiberal culture.

[charred_heart]

For this to be an accurate analysis of Islam, one needs to examine the practices of Muslims who do not live under authoritarian or totalitarian governments, or live in enclaves in Western countries that import and enforce illiberal culture.I'd say look at the U.A.E and Turkey

[htb]

The Emirates have an admirably laissez-faire economy, but polity is still autocratic and Islamism is notably influential. Turkey, however, is an excellent example: it rates well in leading indices of political and civil freedom, the fruits of Ataturk a secular and relatively liberal society for a country populated by declared Muslims.

[charred_heart]

The Emirates have an admirably laissez-faire economy, but polity is still autocratic and Islamism is notably influential. Turkey, however, is an excellent example: it rates well in leading indices of political and civil freedom, the fruits of Ataturk a secular and relatively liberal society for a country populated by declared Muslims.
I am hesitant to call what is in the U.A.E Islamism. It is true that the legal system is influenced by Islam, but it is very different from what is practiced in Saudi Arabia or Taliban Kabul. There are no laws specific to female dress code, drinking is not illegal although it does require a licence (to drink), and the country is not segregated. Saudi Arabia for example, segregates men and women in public places. Malls only allow women to enter during the day and only families during the evening - single males can go in at dusk. Women also have to wear a veil.

The difference between the U.A.E and Turkey is in the political system. Now when you consider that the majority of muslims in the U.A.E are working immigrants and that immigrants have no voting rights you will find a muslim population meeting your requirements.