Life as an attractive woman

[Brad324]

I had an interesting conversation with my brother's girlfriend last night about what it's like to be an attractive woman in today's society. We've all thought about it, but never really looked that deep. So here I go again with my excessive analysis.

Just imagine what it's like, when you suddenly start hitting puberty and get all this attention from guys. They start doing things for you without asking for things in return. They buy you things. You can get them to drive you places. Males from the age of 13-113 stare at you as you walk by. You can have sex with practically any single man you wish. You have all this power that was suddenly released inside you.

Who's to blame these women for abusing this power? After all, they didn't ask for it - we're giving it to them. Wouldn't you be more curious as to why a woman isn't abusing this power? It'd be like having a magic wand and keeping it in your closet.

You could also see how a woman like this would start to group all of these suck-up, manipulative guys into one big package: men. A man who does not kiss her ass and try to buy her affection would instantly stand out from the crowd. But sadly, attractive women far outnumber the amount of guys who really have their acts together, which is why so many gorgeous women feel so frustrated with their love life. Sure, she could settle for her really nice guy friend who would give anything just to be in her presence - she could have him at the snap of a finger. But his attention would be overbearing.

I suspect in the same way that guys feel sharp pain when being rejected, these girls feel pain when a guy disappoints them. He seemed so different at first, but then he somehow revealed that he's just another loser. Even worse is when the guy starts apologizing. Don't apologize, it's nothing you did - it's who you are. Apologizing only further reveals that you just don't get it. And worse yet is when he would say "I can change." The guy might as well be saying "I can mold myself to fit your every need" which definitely puts you in the manipulative suck-up category.

Because of this pain of disappointment, you could see how women like this would come up with instant tests to determine if a guy is truly authentic. Which explains in my mind all of the crazy weird stuff girls do. Pretending to be angry. Asking him to do something for her. Making him jealous. What she's trying to do is size him up. She's baiting him into kissing her ass. As soon as the lips touch the ass, the door is closed. Why should she waste another minute with this guy? There are literally not enough minutes in the day to date every man who is interested in her, so she's forced to use these "speed-techniques" to figure guys out.

In conclusion, life as an attractive woman doesn't seem like all it's cut out to be.

[Shimpei]

Do you think attractive women are as shallow as you describe them?

[Brad324]

Define shallow. If not settling for someone we don't feel an attraction for makes you shallow, then who isn't shallow? And why is it considered a good thing to settle for someone you're not attracted to?

[Shimpei]

Instant tests are not always reliable. In case sizing-up of somebody is based on an instant test solely, that may mean you're shallow. Of course there are huge turn-offs that can be seen from the first moment, but I'm talking about playing with or manipulating others.

[LongSilence]

I think you need to think deeper about this. Or less.

[Brad324]

I see what you're saying. I think it depends on your options. If you're somewhat attractive, but not a model, then you'll probably give a guy more time. If you're a supermodel, then you probably won't be very forgiving.

[Shimpei]

I see what you're saying. I think it depends on your options. If you're somewhat attractive, but not a model, then you'll probably give a guy more time. If you're a supermodel, then you probably won't be very forgiving.

Do you think supermodels are all COOL girls?

[venerationOFrabbits]

When I was a teenager I got a lot of attention and hated it. I remember the creeps following me.

Back then I was even more awkward then I am now, and I thought there was something wrong with me, but now I know better.

Now that I'm almost 40, I like the attention. The other day the phone man noticed me and turned around and walked into his van. That was cute. But's that's all it is, just something cute. No biggie.

[Last Song]

Define shallow. If not settling for someone we don't feel an attraction for makes you shallow, then who isn't shallow? And why is it considered a good thing to settle for someone you're not attracted to?

Are you an attractive woman, Brad?

[Brad324]

I think the way the world treats you affects the way you act very much.


Are you an attractive woman, Brad?

Serious discussion only please. If you disagree with anything I've said, then come out and disagree. I won't be offended. It's just my analysis.

[charred_heart]

Instant tests are not always reliable. In case sizing-up of somebody is based on an instant test solely, that may mean you're shallow.I've seen this, and they are definitely not shallow. The ones I've seen, they don't do it to every guy who walks up to them. They do these tests to the guys they start dating.

[mr. treat]

I've seen this, and they are definitely not shallow. The ones I've seen, they don't do it to every guy who walks up to them. They do these tests to the guys they start dating.

how is that not shallow? what sort of "tests" did they perform?

[Shimpei]

I've seen this, and they are definitely not shallow. The ones I've seen, they don't do it to every guy who walks up to them. They do these tests to the guys they start dating.

I would like to emphasize that I'm talking about manipulation and playing with others.

[ShadyShady]

If you disagree with anything I've said, then come out and disagree. I won't be offended. It's just my analysis.

Your analysis is flawed because you assume women are sane and think logically.

[Brad324]

I would like to emphasize that I'm talking about manipulation and playing with others.

No - I didn't mean to come across as saying all attractive girls manipulate men. But rather that you'd have to wonder why they don't.

[Brad324]

Your analysis is flawed because you assume women are sane and think logically.

Lol. Actually, I don't think they logically do any of this. I think it's all subconscious.

[Shimpei]

No - I didn't mean to come across as saying all attractive girls manipulate men. But rather that you'd have to wonder why they don't.

Why are attractive women supposed to bugger men about? There are normal girls.

[venerationOFrabbits]

I Kissed A Girl
Jill Sobule, Robin Eaton

Genny came over and told me about Fred
He's such a hairy behemoth she said
And dumb as a box of hammers
But he's such a handsome guy
And I opened up and told her about Larry
And yesterday how he asked me to marry
And I'm not giving him an answer yet
I think I could do better

So we laughed, compared notes
We had a drink, we had a smoke
She took off her overcoat
I kissed a girl

So she called home to say she'd be late
He said he worried but now he feels safe
" I'm glad you're with your girlfriend
Tell her 'hi' for me"
So I looked at you, you had guilt in your eyes
But it only lasted a little while
And then I felt your hand upon my knee

And we laughed at the world
They can have their diamonds
And we'll have our pearls
I kissed a girl

[charred_heart]

how is that not shallow?gauging a man to see if he has character? that's shallow?


what sort of "tests" did they perform?one that springs to mind is the girl being friendly to a guy who is of the opposite type of the man she's currently dating. So for INTP's that would be the jock. Not flirting mind you. Now the test is to see if the guy will be mature or will go crazy when seeing his gf talking to a jock. It's to see if he's secure in himself.


This is all part of 'The Game' that one poster talked about.

[mr. treat]

gauging a man to see if he has character? that's shallow?

one that springs to mind is the girl being friendly to a guy who is of the opposite type of the man she's currently dating. So for INTP's that would be the jock. Not flirting mind you. Now the test is to see if the guy will be mature or will go crazy when seeing his gf talking to a jock. It's to see if he's secure in himself.

i like to think that a person's character can be seen by their actions at all times, through our daily lives. to consciously perform a "test" to invoke a reaction for judgement seems like a lack of trust, or an insecurity, to me.

edit: trust certainly is in short supply these days.

[venerationOFrabbits]

i like to think that a person's character can be seen by their actions at all times, through our daily lives. to consciously perform a "test" to invoke a reaction for judgement seems like a lack of trust, or an insecurity, to me.

Right, my husband still acts retarded, like a jealous 16 year old.

I forgive him his occasional trespass, overall he's a keeper.

[Google Monster]

i like to think that a person's character can be seen by their actions at all times, through our daily lives. to consciously perform a "test" to invoke a reaction for judgement seems like a lack of trust, or an insecurity, to me.

But most women do not have time to get to know each and every attractive Tom, Dick and Harry to get a sense of his character. So I think a quick test is appropriate. Also there is nothing wrong with having a lack of trust with someone you just met and many women, no matter how attractive admit to being a bit insecure. Which is why finding the strong characteristics in a male is even more important.

[kwis]

I think its more that people allow themself to be so heavily influenced by beauty that they set themself up to be manipulated. They know/think the other person can get almost anyone they want so they conclude that this special person requires special treatment but I think thats the last thing they want.
I think about this alot but mostly about all of the awesome social experiments I could perform if I was super hot.

[INTrePid]

Define shallow. If not settling for someone we don't feel an attraction for makes you shallow, then who isn't shallow? And why is it considered a good thing to settle for someone you're not attracted to?
First, you do not sound like 99% "F" to me. So what game are you playing? Look at yourself. Second, no one knows anyone within the first 20 minutes. It takes one or two years to get to know anyone completely. People have bad and good characteristics. It's not always so easy to see until 6 months down the road. You are too paranoid.

[Zephyrus055]

For some reason, I have a history of being manipulated by attractive ESFJs who used me in their study groups to help them get better grades. This has also happened on the individual level, where I am asked to tutor them in a subject (even if I don't know anything about it). It is stupid how they spend hours taking detailed notes, when I just read the main themes and understand the material instantly. Then I explain it to them, approach it in a variety of different ways, and help them devise memory clues for listed information.

But in return for all my help, I do not get any love. Some have also tortured me and did not contact me after the class was over. Another played hot/cold, where she would withdraw for several months and then return all warmy and fuzzy. She kept herself in my mind, but never got close. One time I tried to get close, and she staged a socially humilitating event. Then two months after that she pretended to not even understand what she did and wants to be friends, hahaha!

These experiences have taught me to not be fooled by a beautiful woman's warm behavior. Most likely they are manipulating me, deceiving me by insinuating a romantic future. Since I do not unconditionally help anyone, these women who would go so far as to manipulate me will have to agree to explicitly stated conditions if they are going to expect my services. Additionally, their end of the bargain will have to be delivered first.

These attractive women sometimes use their beauty as an implied reward for a man's services. Their beauty gives them an advantage in life, and they are able to be parasitic because there is always some man foolish enough to offer help unconditionally, thinking that there is a non-existent reward waiting for him in the future. It is cheap, but I have learned my lesson.

[Brad324]

Your post was really weird and scattered, so I'm gonna break it up into parts. :think:


First, you do not sound like 99% "F" to me.

I'm 101% "T." In other words, I'm rational enough to not make excuses for being human. Spending 2 years to get to know someone you're not attracted to is not called being deep, it's called desperation. I'm very deep once I'm involved in a relationship... I don't see how she has to be unattractive to me for it to mean anything.


So what game are you playing? Look at yourself.

I don't really understand what you're getting at here. Why do I get the feeling I'm being attacked? I'm really scratching my head here.


Second, no one knows anyone within the first 20 minutes. It takes one or two years to get to know anyone completely. People have bad and good characteristics. It's not always so easy to see until 6 months down the road.

I agree with that. That's great in an ideal world, but we're talking reality here. Who has the time to get to know everyone for 2 years? Wouldn't you pick someone you're attracted to over someone you're not? I don't see that as shallow at all, it's called being human.


You are too paranoid.

Maybe, but what does that have to do with this topic? What's with the outburst anyways? :think:

Moving on... I find that women tend to be very defensive of their techniques and mindgames. I guess that's understandable... If guys have them figured out, then their games lose all power. But they should realize that if more guys spend the time to become more genuine, comfortable, confident people, then there are more attractive guys in this world for you. I wouldn't be offended if every girl in the world worked on improving their bodies.

[attila_the_hunny]

I don't know if it ever occured to anyone that cute or attractive women are also the target of unwanted attention from creepy individuals.

[Brad324]

I don't know if it ever occured to anyone that cute or attractive women are also the target of unwanted attention from creepy individuals.

Good point. All the more reason for them to be weeded out from the beginning. Who wants 10 stalkers chasing them?

[attila_the_hunny]

Good point. All the more reason for them to be weeded out from the beginning. Who wants 10 stalkers chasing them?

A lot of pedophiles think along those lines, too.

[Brad324]

A lot of pedophiles think along those lines, too.

elaborate?

[Google Monster]

She read it differently, you stated the female side of weeding out from the beginning and she read the male side of weeding out.

[mr. treat]

But most women do not have time to get to know each and every attractive Tom, Dick and Harry to get a sense of his character. So I think a quick test is appropriate. Also there is nothing wrong with having a lack of trust with someone you just met and many women, no matter how attractive admit to being a bit insecure. Which is why finding the strong characteristics in a male is even more important.

i don't see why any person would want to get to know each and every person they are attracted to physically in some all-encompasing search for a mate. when i meet someone for the first time, i don't start analyzing whether or not they are a compatible spouse, or start keeping a score with them, i just look at them as a person. if, through circumstance, i end up knowing them for an extended period of time, i may find they posess an admirable character, and that i like spending time with them, for whatever reason.

i suppose, though, that many people are like others have described.

[attila_the_hunny]

Beauty gets warped over the years to a person by people who want to steal a piece of it. It makes you the target of many things--at any age--and the more beautiful you are, the more likely people are going to want something from you.

[Google Monster]

i don't see why any person would want to get to know each and every person they are attracted to physically in some all-encompasing search for a mate. when i meet someone for the first time, i don't start analyzing whether or not they are a compatible spouse, or start keeping a score with them, i just look at them as a person. if, through circumstance, i end up knowing them for an extended period of time, i may find they posess an admirable character, and that i like spending time with them, for whatever reason.

i suppose, though, that many people are like others have described.

Sure, no one will always act on attraction. What I meant was the woman's point of view of test. Because if the woman is attractive she is most likely to have many guys try and pick her up. This is where the test come in, however direct or subtle they may be. And these test aren't devised logically, so they don't start analyzing whether or not they are a compatible mate. Its learned by experince as they learn how to deal with the men trying to pick her up over the years. The test are meant to brush the average man off and the attraction begins when something unpredictable happens. A man doesn't follow the predicted behavior.

[Brad324]

Google Monster gets it.

[mr. treat]

last post

ah, i see it now, but i still question the magnitude and intent of the testing.


Instant tests are not always reliable. In case sizing-up of somebody is based on an instant test solely, that may mean you're shallow. Of course there are huge turn-offs that can be seen from the first moment, but I'm talking about playing with or manipulating others.

shimpei is, afterall, a noted hottie.

[Toonia]

Beauty gets warped over the years to a person by people who want to steal a piece of it. It makes you the target of many things--at any age--and the more beautiful you are, the more likely people are going to want something from you.That is very insightful. (not that I would know from experience necessarily) As a regular person, I found the guys least appealing when they made me feel like I was a means to an end. If they wanted to improve their social standing or come off as more intelligent or talented through association, it is a huge turnoff. I would guess that gorgeous women get treated like opportunities a lot and that would really stink. Most of the "testing" that people do to one another is not a conscious choice - it is a learned reflex. It took me years to discover one little "test" I had invented - if I needed to know whether or not someone could be trusted, I would act like bait, just a bit vulnerable, to see if they would exploit it. If they did, then toodeloo! Pretty good test, actually, because it is rather accurate for revealing character, but an unnecessarily painful way to live.

[cerene]

gauging a man to see if he has character? that's shallow?

one that springs to mind is the girl being friendly to a guy who is of the opposite type of the man she's currently dating. So for INTP's that would be the jock. Not flirting mind you. Now the test is to see if the guy will be mature or will go crazy when seeing his gf talking to a jock. It's to see if he's secure in himself.


This is all part of 'The Game' that one poster talked about.

Yeah, I know women who do this sort of thing, and that's the part of "the game" I don't like. I definitely have to "size guys up" when I meet them, but I do it based on my intuition, on seeing their reactions to already occuring events, not on events that I make up to "test" them.
Having worked in a very male-oriented field for many years, I have enough practice that it's not that hard to spot the ones who have "ulterior motives" from the [relatively;)] decent honest ones!

[Brad324]

When I was getting a haircut today, I overheard two attractive hair stylists talking to eachother. The first girl was saying something about a guy creeping her out because he still calls, and she has to pretend she's busy. And the second girl says that when she gets asked out she says yes, then gives out a phone number - a fake one.

Can't blame the girls, but I can't help but feel bad for the guys they're talking about. I think the sex-imization of our culture has forced women to be on guard at all times.

[Mountain_Recluse]

Given all the tests and games which women play, it is no wonder that I've rarely and ineptly played the dating game and am still single.

[Shimpei]

shimpei is, afterall, a noted hottie.

Sorry to say that, but using the word "hottie" makes you shallow in my eyes. Also, I feel a bit hurt being called a hottie.
I haven't tested my male acquaintances and friends but I let them reveal themselves and this normally takes a lot of time.

[INTrePid]

i don't see why any person would want to get to know each and every person they are attracted to physically in some all-encompasing search for a mate. when i meet someone for the first time, i don't start analyzing whether or not they are a compatible spouse, or start keeping a score with them, i just look at them as a person. if, through circumstance, i end up knowing them for an extended period of time, i may find they posess an admirable character, and that i like spending time with them, for whatever reason.

i suppose, though, that many people are like others have described.
You get to know someone you're attracted to until you can find enough information that lets you know they are not the One. You must be 20 years old.

[sbw]

Can't blame the girls, but I can't help but feel bad for the guys they're talking about. I think the sex-imization of our culture has forced women to be on guard at all times.

young male catholics have to be constantly vigilant as well.

I'll be here all week.

seriously tho--men have ALWAYS been pervs, and there have always been rapists too. if I were a woman, I'd probly carry a gun.

Scott

[INTrePid]

This is interesting.

I'm 101% "T." In other words, I'm rational enough to not make excuses for being human. Spending 2 years to get to know someone you're not attracted to is not called being deep, it's called desperation. I'm very deep once I'm involved in a relationship... I don't see how she has to be unattractive to me for it to mean anything.
That's not what your profile says. It says you are only 1% "T," which might as well make you an "F."

I (100%) N (75%)T (1%) P (67%)



I don't really understand what you're getting at here. Why do I get the feeling I'm being attacked? I'm really scratching my head here.
Well, no one mentioned getting to know someone you're NOT attracted to. I don't know where you are coming up with that one.


I agree with that. That's great in an ideal world, but we're talking reality here. Who has the time to get to know everyone for 2 years? Wouldn't you pick someone you're attracted to over someone you're not? I don't see that as shallow at all, it's called being human.
Right. You pick someone you are attracted to and get to know her. For how long? Until she becomes unattractive to you? Until you realize the person is not for you. Usually this takes longer than 20 minutes. It might take two years. People can waste their entire lives dating people they do not feel are compatible partners. Usually it fizzles within one year.


Maybe, but what does that have to do with this topic? What's with the outburst anyways? :think:
You were the one adding facts, changing the order, and adding time limits.


Moving on... I find that women tend to be very defensive of their techniques and mindgames. I guess that's understandable... If guys have them figured out, then their games lose all power. But they should realize that if more guys spend the time to become more genuine, comfortable, confident people, then there are more attractive guys in this world for you. I wouldn't be offended if every girl in the world worked on improving their bodies.
What? Is this what women ask of men? Why don't you ask that of yourself? That is the silliest statement. I don't think a shave and a haircut is asking too much of any man. As for the fitness of women (and men), some want it, some do not.

[INTrePid]

Because of this pain of disappointment, you could see how women like this would come up with instant tests to determine if a guy is truly authentic. Which explains in my mind all of the crazy weird stuff girls do. Pretending to be angry.
How would a "T" male be able to tell the difference between someone he just met's real anger and "pretend" anger if he is not in touch with his "F"? Do you really think you would be an good judge of this, being a "T" if she is an "F"? You are assuming the same things make you angry make the "F" female angry. This is most likely not the case.


Asking him to do something for her. Making him jealous. What she's trying to do is size him up. She's baiting him into kissing her ass. As soon as the lips touch the ass, the door is closed.
If two people are in a dating relationship, it's too much to ask if she asks him to carry something too heavy for her? How is she making him jealous? Maybe he just has a jealous nature. Afterall, she has known the other guy all her life. What kind of a threat is that?


Why should she waste another minute with this guy? There are literally not enough minutes in the day to date every man who is interested in her, so she's forced to use these "speed-techniques" to figure guys out.
As you said, why would she hang around someone she is not attracted to? I seriously doubt that most women have these "speed techniques" that they use on every man they start dating to see if he is suitable to keep dating. That is a bit much (paranoid).


In conclusion, life as an attractive woman doesn't seem like all it's cut out to be.
Attractive women are just women. Attractive women can get used, too, if that's what you're trying to say.

[wildcat]

Do you think attractive women are as shallow as you describe them?
Beauty is short lived.
The beautiful women are much abused.
They end up being neglected when the beauty is gone.

[Brad324]

INTrePid.

1) If I'm 99% F, then I'm 101% T.

2)
Well, no one mentioned getting to know someone you're NOT attracted to. I don't know where you are coming up with that one.

You're reading way too deep into this.

3)
Right. You pick someone you are attracted to and get to know her. For how long? Until she becomes unattractive to you? Until you realize the person is not for you. Usually this takes longer than 20 minutes. It might take two years. People can waste their entire lives dating people they do not feel are compatible partners. Usually it fizzles within one year.

a) this topic is about the female side of things, I don't know how this is getting turned around into my own personal way of handling my love life.
b) If it interests you so much: maybe I'm not looking for a relationship right now? I'm not looking to settle down anytime soon. I'm not ruling out the possibility, but it's not my objective. I'm living more with a "go with the flow" mentality. I'll get to know people for alot of reasons. For example, when I PMed you wanting to get to know you, I was merely interested in getting to know another INTP. We both know how that turned out. No hard feelings. You really need to calm down and be more relaxed.


You were the one adding facts, changing the order, and adding time limits.

This is the weirdest argument I've ever been in.


What? Is this what women ask of men? Why don't you ask that of yourself? That is the silliest statement. I don't think a shave and a haircut is asking too much of any man. As for the fitness of women (and men), some want it, some do not.

Alright, you can have the ungenuine, uncomfortable guys with zero confidence. He'll shave and cut his hair though. As for that last sentence, I have personally never known a guy who preferred unfit women. Humans do have much in common you know.


How would a "T" male be able to tell the difference between someone he just met's real anger and "pretend" anger if he is not in touch with his "F"? Do you really think you would be an good judge of this, being a "T" if she is an "F"? You are assuming the same things make you angry make the "F" female angry. This is most likely not the case.

Whether it's pretend or not, I personally won't put up with unjustified anger. I don't really need to know the difference. If she gets angry over something silly, then I really have to ask myself if I want to spend much time with this girl.


If two people are in a dating relationship, it's too much to ask if she asks him to carry something too heavy for her? How is she making him jealous? Maybe he just has a jealous nature. Afterall, she has known the other guy all her life. What kind of a threat is that?

Carrying bags, opening doors and all that chivalry is great. I personally love chivalry. But if a girl asks me to do something like "can you go get me a drink" or anything like that which has nothing to do with chivalry, but all to do with being her whipping boy, then I'll simply say "no." As for making him jealous, that's a seperate statement in a list. She can make him jealous in many ways. She can start talking to other guys in the room, or tell you how attractive another guy is.

I personally was with a girl who checked another guy out as he walked by and something about him being hot. I asked her if she wanted me to introduce her to him, at which point she laughed, tugged on my arm and said no. It was pretty obvious to me this was one of her little tests.


As you said, why would she hang around someone she is not attracted to? I seriously doubt that most women have these "speed techniques" that they use on every man they start dating to see if he is suitable to keep dating. That is a bit much (paranoid).

Some women are much more active with their testing than others, but I'd say that the large majority, if not all women subconsciously test men. Wording it differently, they're feeling out their boundaries. Paranoid? This has nothing to do with paranoia.


Attractive women are just women.

I know they are, and that's how I think they should be treated. That's how most of them want to be treated. The problem is that most guys don't.


Attractive women can get used, too, if that's what you're trying to say.

No doubt about it.

INTrePid, go for a walk or something. You're reading way too deep into my posts for some reason. If you have any issues, just calm down and take it up in private messaging.

Cheers, Brad.

[earwax]

I have no doubts that beautiful women have a difficult time knowing if someone is interested in them as a person or they just want to get them in bed.

On a side note: Why do people assume that physical beauty means good sex?

[attila_the_hunny]

You get to know someone you're attracted to until you can find enough information that lets you know they are not the One. You must be 20 years old.

You must be twenty-years old for believing in The One.

[mr. treat]

Also, I feel a bit hurt being called a hottie.

do you feel it demeans you?


You get to know someone you're attracted to until you can find enough information that lets you know they are not the One. You must be 20 years old.

i am 24, but i'm curious as to what makes you see that?

[bergenski]

I think attractive women are pretty lucky so long as they're smart enough to know that looks fade.

[Shimpei]

I think attractive women are pretty lucky so long as they're smart enough to know that looks fade.

Agreed.

[Shimpei]

do you feel it demeans you?


Yes.

[mr. treat]

Yes.

instead of asking why, i'll just apologize.

[Brad324]

it's not your fault she's offended by that. It was a compliment.

[attila_the_hunny]

it's not your fault she's offended by that. It was a compliment.

She didn't perceive it to be that way.

[Google Monster]

it's not your fault she's offended by that. It was a compliment.

You seem to not be getting the point and a bit ignorant. I like that.

Edit: I can't do this.. I'm sorry.

[Brad324]

I get the point alright, it just seems a little ridiculous.

[macr0]

I find it humerous that some think that the hallowed mind of an attractive female is a "hands off" zone for rational analysis.

[attila_the_hunny]

I get the point alright, it just seems a little ridiculous.

You've got some nice dick sucking lips. I just gave you a compliment.

[Brad324]

I do have nice lips, thanks. And I'm sure you have a nice dick. But that was what you'd call a "backhanded compliment." There was no good intention behind it.

[Kaveri]

x

[attila_the_hunny]

But that was what you'd call a "backhanded compliment." There was no good intention behind it.

But that's not how I see it. And since you don't see it my way, it's ridiculous.

I'm sure you get the point.

[Google Monster]

Hey, whoa! I'm an INFP and I could have written what Brad324 wrote in post #3. And I'm certainly not of the same opinion with Brad324 because of my type, but because the opinion is right. You're so wrong if you think you can predict people's opinions by their type.

Anyway, right here is an attractive woman, flesh and bone, ready to share the slings and arrows about being an attractive woman!

Actually, fortunately I've been an ugly duckling -- when I was a teenager, I didn't even kow what men's attention meant, so I didn't get used to believing that the world revolves around me. However, when I turned eighteen, I started realizing that men thought I was attractive. Now I'm twenty and I'm practically drowning in attention. And I'm a bit anxious about what will happen when my looks wear off. -.-

Anyway, one problem of being an attractive woman is that men won't settle to being "just friends" with me. So, they accuse me of manipulating them when I am in fact being nice to them and receiving help from them without intending to get romantically involved with them.

I do form emotional attachments to some of these persons. So, it feels equally horrible to me when these persons realize that what they have had in mind (a romantic relationship) is not what I have had in mind (a platonic friendship) and so they abandon me angrily, obviously silently accusing me of having used them in some horrendous way.

Okay, so maybe I did exploit a few persons and I feel guilty about it now, but I really couldn't have managed without help and I would've been a fool not to use my cuteness to get what I *needed* (note: not what I just wanted out of the blue, but what I needed in order to survive. I also at least try to minimize the inconvenience that I cause to others when using their help, and I do have respect for the people who have helped me.)

Duh, thats what gay men are for sweetie.

[Brad324]

But that's not how I see it. And since you don't see it my way, it's ridiculous.

The only thing that's ridiculous here is your argument. To say that to a straight male couldn't possibly be a sincere compliment (except from a certified mental-patient). Try again.

[Google Monster]

The only thing that's ridiculous here is your argument. To say that to a straight male couldn't possibly be a sincere compliment (except from a certified mental-patient). Try again.

Although it could work as a test to find a dude with a sense of humor no doubt.

[Brad324]

Hey, whoa! I'm an INFP and I could have written what Brad324 wrote in post #3. And I'm certainly not of the same opinion with Brad324 because of my type, but because the opinion is right. You're so wrong if you think you can predict people's opinions by their type.

Anyway, right here is an attractive woman, flesh and bone, ready to share the slings and arrows about being an attractive woman!

Actually, fortunately I've been an ugly duckling -- when I was a teenager, I didn't even kow what men's attention meant, so I didn't get used to believing that the world revolves around me. However, when I turned eighteen, I started realizing that men thought I was attractive. Now I'm twenty and I'm practically drowning in attention. And I'm a bit anxious about what will happen when my looks wear off. -.-

Anyway, one problem of being an attractive woman is that men won't settle to being "just friends" with me. So, they accuse me of manipulating them when I am in fact being nice to them and receiving help from them without intending to get romantically involved with them.

I do form emotional attachments to some of these persons. So, it feels equally horrible to me when these persons realize that what they have had in mind (a romantic relationship) is not what I have had in mind (a platonic friendship) and so they abandon me angrily, obviously silently accusing me of having used them in some horrendous way.

Okay, so maybe I did exploit a few persons and I feel guilty about it now, but I really couldn't have managed without help and I would've been a fool not to use my cuteness to get what I *needed* (note: not what I just wanted out of the blue, but what I needed in order to survive. I also at least try to minimize the inconvenience that I cause to others when using their help, and I do have respect for the people who have helped me.)

Thank you for posting here. It's always very refreshing to meet a girl who's honest about her thoughts and intentions. As for the guys who won't accept being friends, I have to say I'm guilty of being one of those guys in the past. I had to literally force myself free from the relationship, because I just wouldn't have been able to handle being only friends. After getting my act together and realizing I have other options, I found that being genuine friends with attractive women can be very rewarding.

I think there's two different types of "love": attraction and affection. A girl feels affection for her guy friends ("I love you as a friend") but attraction for other guys. I think women secretly want to mould guys they're attracted to into the perfect husbands, but are not instantly attracted to guys who are already "perfect husband" material. If that makes any sense.

[attila_the_hunny]

I think women secretly want to mould guys they're attracted to into the perfect husbands, but are not instantly attracted to guys who are already "perfect husband" material. If that makes any sense.

It would if every woman on the planet aspired to marriage.

[Brad324]

It would if every woman on the planet aspired to marriage.

good point.

[attila_the_hunny]

The only thing that's ridiculous here is your argument. To say that to a straight male couldn't possibly be a sincere compliment (except from a certified mental-patient). Try again.

What's absurd is that you'd undermine someone's feelings because of what you think is a compliment, but to the intended it clearly isn't. It negates the point of even saying anything at all.

You're not 101% T, you're just a 101% dumb.

[Google Monster]

Thank you for posting here. It's always very refreshing to meet a girl who's honest about her thoughts and intentions. As for the guys who won't accept being friends, I have to say I'm guilty of being one of those guys in the past. I had to literally force myself free from the relationship, because I just wouldn't have been able to handle being only friends. After getting my act together and realizing I have other options, I found that being genuine friends with attractive women can be very rewarding.

I think there's two different types of "love": attraction and affection. A girl feels affection for her guy friends ("I love you as a friend") but attraction for other guys. I think women secretly want to mould guys they're attracted to into the perfect husbands, but are not instantly attracted to guys who are already "perfect husband" material. If that makes any sense.

Your oversimplifying things dude. Most people (not just women) will not logically act on attraction. You don't just say wow she has very attractive features then start analyzing her movements and then feel attraction. You feel the attraction the moment you notice the beautiful person. You'll be surprised what women secretly want and it usually ain't the perfect husband.

[Monica]

When I was getting a haircut today, I overheard two attractive hair stylists talking to eachother. The first girl was saying something about a guy creeping her out because he still calls, and she has to pretend she's busy. And the second girl says that when she gets asked out she says yes, then gives out a phone number - a fake one.

Can't blame the girls, but I can't help but feel bad for the guys they're talking about. I think the sex-imization of our culture has forced women to be on guard at all times.

Hairstylists. =)) I wouldn't judge attractive women in general by the words spoken by hairstylists. If you want to hear crazy, immature gossip, then tune at a hair salon. Not to say all stylists are like that, but I think the type of women attracted to the profession are usually focused on looks and may be on the shallow side.

I also wonder what you mean by attractive? Girls who are obsessed with hair and makeup? Maybe girls that go tanning, wear fake nails, and adhere to the latest fashions? They read "In Style" magazine?

My feeling is that anyone can be attractive. What I don't think is attractive is people who are obsessed with their looks and spend more than an hour a day prepping themselves for interaction with the world. Those people are wierd.

Don't get me wrong, I do wear makeup, but it takes me less than five minutes to put it on. And I am one of those women who has been "attractive" from a young age. I don't play games, either. That's for shallow twits who wear Abercrombie t-shirts.

[Brad324]

What's absurd is that you'd undermine someone's feelings because of what you think is a compliment, but to the intended it clearly isn't. It negates the point of even saying anything at all.

I think anyone who gets offended by a sincere compliment needs more help than an apology can offer.


Most people (not just women) will not logically act on attraction. You don't just say wow she has very attractive features then start analyzing her movements and then feel attraction. You feel the attraction the moment you notice the beautiful person. You'll be surprised what women secretly want and it usually ain't the perfect husband.

I agree with this completely. I don't see how you see me as in disagreement with this. I never said any of this is done logically. It's a logical analysis of the subconscious. Notice how many romance movies, and to my knowledge, romance novels, start out with the guy being this out of control bad-boy that she has no control over... often treating her badly, or acting very aloof. And at the end of the story she marries him and they live happily ever after. Although he has become "husband" material, we all know what he REALLY is inside. That's my take on it.

[Brad324]

I also wonder what you mean by attractive? Girls who are obsessed with hair and makeup? Maybe girls that go tanning, wear fake nails, and adhere to the latest fashions? They read "In Style" magazine?

Sure, attractive is a subjective term. But I think there's a strong correlation between "healthy" and "attractive." Objectively speaking, you could gauge attraciveness by the amount of attention she get's from men, without them knowing anything about their life.


My feeling is that anyone can be attractive. What I don't think is attractive is people who are obsessed with their looks and spend more than an hour a day prepping themselves for interaction with the world. Those people are wierd.

Excessive makeup is a huge turnoff for me personally, but a girl who doesn't take care of herself is even more of a turn off. I don't gauge attractiveness by the amount of time they take to pretty themselves up. If a woman looks pretty, then she looks pretty, whether it took her 5 hours or she woke up like that. The rest is about personality, and is not part of triggering a guy's attraction mechanisms.


Don't get me wrong, I do wear makeup, but it takes me less than five minutes to put it on. And I am one of those women who has been "attractive" from a young age. I don't play games, either. That's for shallow twits who wear Abercrombie t-shirts.

I don't think it's shallow to wear stylish clothes. I personally like to wear stuff like calvin klein. I don't judge the clothes by the label, they just tend to always catch my eye in the store. I also have $8 shirts that look great on me. Girls who like to wear high fashion clothes aren't considered shallow in my books, they just have a certain idea of what beauty is. I went shopping with a girl like this once, and she helped me pick out some of my favorite clothes.

You can't judge a book by it's cover, but that doesn't excuse you from letting your cover get all dirty. :reading: :)

[songbird36]

All this is pretty obvious. Of course an attractive woman is likely to attract jerks (as well as nice genuine guys). She then has two options - either enjoy all the attention, or develop an effective radar allowing her to distinguish the jerks from the nice guys before she gets messed around.

Is this as much of a problem for plain women? I doubt it.

[INTrePid]

INTrePid.

1) If I'm 99% F, then I'm 101% T.
1% T usually means 99% F. I can tell math is not your strong suit.


2) You're reading way too deep into this.
No, I think you are adding too much of your own imagination and values. Women do not think like you, and if you want one, you might have to go gay.


3)
a) this topic is about the female side of things, I don't know how this is getting turned around into my own personal way of handling my love life.
b) If it interests you so much: maybe I'm not looking for a relationship right now? I'm not looking to settle down anytime soon. I'm not ruling out the possibility, but it's not my objective. I'm living more with a "go with the flow" mentality. I'll get to know people for alot of reasons. For example, when I PMed you wanting to get to know you, I was merely interested in getting to know another INTP. We both know how that turned out. No hard feelings. You really need to calm down and be more relaxed.
a) Your way of handling your love life affects women--the people you are after.
b) If you're not looking for a good match, then why are you being so picky and hostile about it? Why do you care what she thinks or if she is shallow if all you want to do is sleep with her? This has nothing to do with me, nor does it have to do with Air Supply. :)



This is the weirdest argument I've ever been in.
Yes, your periodic drug use doesn't help matters.


Alright, you can have the ungenuine, uncomfortable guys with zero confidence. He'll shave and cut his hair though. As for that last sentence, I have personally never known a guy who preferred unfit women. Humans do have much in common you know.
Most people prefer fit people. That doesn't mean they deserve them. You tend to get what you are unless you have another extraordinary quality.



Whether it's pretend or not, I personally won't put up with unjustified anger. I don't really need to know the difference. If she gets angry over something silly, then I really have to ask myself if I want to spend much time with this girl.
Who are you to judge what anger is justified or not? If you are the one causing it, I do not think you are the one suitable to do the judging. Perhaps you should seek the affection of a man.



Carrying bags, opening doors and all that chivalry is great. I personally love chivalry. But if a girl asks me to do something like "can you go get me a drink" or anything like that which has nothing to do with chivalry, but all to do with being her whipping boy, then I'll simply say "no." As for making him jealous, that's a seperate statement in a list. She can make him jealous in many ways. She can start talking to other guys in the room, or tell you how attractive another guy is.
I think men are guilty of this as well. Sometimes men compare you to other women in front of you or oogle women who walk by. What's with that?


I personally was with a girl who checked another guy out as he walked by and something about him being hot. I asked her if she wanted me to introduce her to him, at which point she laughed, tugged on my arm and said no. It was pretty obvious to me this was one of her little tests.
Don't get all bent out of shape over it. If her eyes stray, she's human. That's your problem, not hers.



INTrePid, go for a walk or something. You're reading way too deep into my posts for some reason. If you have any issues, just calm down and take it up in private messaging.
I'm reading what's on the surface. I'm asking you to explain yourself. That's the nature of a forum. You do not deserve a private message. :P

[Brad324]

1% T usually means 99% F. I can tell math is not your strong suit.

If I was 99% F, why on earth would I call myself an INTP?


No, I think you are adding too much of your own imagination and values. Women do not think like you, and if you want one, you might have to go gay.

It's my analysis?


a) Your way of handling your love life affects women--the people you are after.
b) If you're not looking for a good match, then why are you being so picky and hostile about it? Why do you care what she thinks or if she is shallow if all you want to do is sleep with her? This has nothing to do with me, nor does it have to do with Air Supply. :)

Why is it anyone's business what I want out of life? I'm not necessarily looking for wife material in the girls I date, but I still have to enjoy her as a person, not just physically. Are you suggesting that if I'm not looking for a full-time girlfriend then I should only be interested in her body? I'm not one to pretend to be interested in a girl just to get laid. I'm pretty up front about my values, and I'm not out to deceive anyone. Many girls are fine with just going out to have fun, with no strings attached. Why are my own values such a big concern to you?


Yes, your periodic drug use doesn't help matters.

Grow up.


Most people prefer fit people. That doesn't mean they deserve them. You tend to get what you are unless you have another extraordinary quality.

That's great, why don't you make a topic about it. It doesn't really relate to this one.


Who are you to judge what anger is justified or not? If you are the one causing it, I do not think you are the one suitable to do the judging.

In my dating life, with my interactions with girls, doesn't that make me the one who gets to decide what I will and won't put up with?


Perhaps you should seek the affection of a man.

Another low-blow. Very classy of you.


Don't get all bent out of shape over it. If her eyes stray, she's human. That's your problem, not hers.

I don't get bent out of shape over it. When did I say I did?


I'm reading what's on the surface. I'm asking you to explain yourself. That's the nature of a forum.

Your analysis of my analysis reeks of your own imagination and values.


You do not deserve a private message. :P

Aren't we mature.

Cheers, Brad.

[Monica]

I guess Brad like hair stylists.

[Google Monster]

:)

[INTrePid]

I (100%) N (75%)T (1%) P (67%)

Enough said.

[Brad324]

are you that dense that you can't recognize that the test I used graded you on a 1-100% scale in each direction for each type??? It can go up to 100% in either direction. 0% is considered right in the middle.

[Miss Anthropic]

Because of this pain of disappointment, you could see how women like this would come up with instant tests to determine if a guy is truly authentic. Which explains in my mind all of the crazy weird stuff girls do. Pretending to be angry. Asking him to do something for her. Making him jealous. What she's trying to do is size him up. She's baiting him into kissing her ass. As soon as the lips touch the ass, the door is closed. Why should she waste another minute with this guy? There are literally not enough minutes in the day to date every man who is interested in her, so she's forced to use these "speed-techniques" to figure guys out.

In conclusion, life as an attractive woman doesn't seem like all it's cut out to be.

You have this way wrong. Girls do crazy weird stuff when they are teenagers because they don't know who they are or what they want. Even as an attractive teenager I didn't have a clue as to the power I could have had over boys just in regards to sex alone. As an attractive middle-aged woman I am just now realizing the power that women at any age have over men with regards to sex. Girls and young women and some women at any age frequently don't know themselves well enough to handle a relationship with maturity. You are making women out to be more conniving than most of them are. The bottom line is women and men think in completely different ways when it comes to relationships and sex so essentially they are playing the same game using different rules and it creates confusion between them. Men are more similiar to each other and women are far more varied in their inner workings....don't even try to reason it out.

[Miss Anthropic]

Your analysis is flawed because you assume women are sane and think logically.
This is the only statement you've ever made that I've thought was reasonable.

[Miss Anthropic]

Anyway, one problem of being an attractive woman is that men won't settle to being "just friends" with me. So, they accuse me of manipulating them when I am in fact being nice to them and receiving help from them without intending to get romantically involved with them.

I do form emotional attachments to some of these persons. So, it feels equally horrible to me when these persons realize that what they have had in mind (a romantic relationship) is not what I have had in mind (a platonic friendship) and so they abandon me angrily, obviously silently accusing me of having used them in some horrendous way.



The truth is, when a guy is your friend, most likely, unless he's gay, he had romantic attraction to you in the first place. Men and women aren't usually just friends..somewhere along the line someone settled for friendship when the other declined romantic involvement. You don't need to feel guilty about wanting a platonic relationship, just make it clear. If the guy feels you are worth it, he will settle for the relationship--I think it works the other way around as well, maybe the guys have an opinion on that. I know the best guy friends---only guys friends I have (and this includes my former husband) are guys that originally had romantic intentions and it just wasn't happening. The ones worth the friendship will be your friend and get over not having you as a girlfriend.

[darlets]

"receiving help from them without intending to get romantically involved with them."

Just a word to the wise, the heart of male bonding is giving and receiving help to someone. It mimics the father son/relationship. One guy takes on the paternal role and instructs the other guy about how to do something. Most guys are going to take you receiving help as bonding in someway, most likely romantically.

This is a generalization, but I think it's very true.

Female bonding, as far as I'm concerned, seems to mimic mother/daughter relationships, with one taking on the maternal role of sympathetic listener.

In my experience guys and girls get this majorly wrong. When a guy ask a female for help/instruction, that's a big thing and girls typically miss it completely, and likewise, when a girl opens up about something that's bothering her, guys tend not to do a good job of picking up on how big of thing that is.

[azurwarrior]

[They]..... get all this attention from guys. They start doing things for you without asking for things in return. They buy you things. You can get them to drive you places. Males from the age of 13-113 stare at you as you walk by. You can have sex with practically any single man you wish. You have all this."

OK. I didn't read all 9 pages. I just wondered right off the bat that what if this woman was born a lesbian? What do you think this attractive woman must feel like being saddled down with the kind of expectations you.....
Oh, forget it.


"Attractive women far outnumber the amount of guys who really have their acts together, which is why so many gorgeous women feel so frustrated with their love life."

Really?

You could see how WOMEN LIKE THIS would come up with instant tests to determine if a guy is truly authentic. Which explains in my mind all of the crazy weird stuff girls do. Pretending to be angry. Asking him to do something for her. Making him jealous. What she's trying to do is size him up. She's baiting him into kissing her ass. As soon as the lips touch the ass, the door is closed. Why should she waste another minute with this guy? There are literally not enough minutes in the day to date every man who is interested in her, so she's forced to use these "speed-techniques" to figure guys out."

It can't be that she is simply not interested. And the guy can't handle the blow to his huge superior male ego and accept "No."

"In conclusion, life as an attractive woman doesn't seem like all it's cut out to be.
Sure it is. She could have a glamourous career as a stripper or whore and make almost as much money as the average man is automatically entitled to in this male supremecist(sp.) society...
All the more poignant for a gay woman trying to keep up appearances and with no male "worth" $omething to help out..
What she looks like will almost always be more important than what she does.
No matter how talented, hard working or smart she may be.
Lucky her.
She has guys like you who make her want to blow her pretty, curvy brains out.

[s0978]

You have this way wrong. Girls do crazy weird stuff when they are teenagers because they don't know who they are or what they want. Even as an attractive teenager I didn't have a clue as to the power I could have had over boys just in regards to sex alone. As an attractive middle-aged woman I am just now realizing the power that women at any age have over men with regards to sex. Girls and young women and some women at any age frequently don't know themselves well enough to handle a relationship with maturity. You are making women out to be more conniving than most of them are. The bottom line is women and men think in completely different ways when it comes to relationships and sex so essentially they are playing the same game using different rules and it creates confusion between them. Men are more similiar to each other and women are far more varied in their inner workings....don't even try to reason it out.

This is good stuff.

Related point: I think there are a lot of attractive men out there who botch dating and relationships because of self-esteem issues. I bet there are plenty of guys out there who have gotten a "hot chick" and it didn't work out because of some unconscious sense of inadequacy. Didn't deserve her, she needs something else, can't make her happy, etc. etc. I think it is often the case with young women too.

[Hustler]

Related point: I think there are a lot of attractive men out there who botch dating and relationships because of self-esteem issues. I bet there are plenty of guys out there who have gotten a "hot chick" and it didn't work out because of some unconscious sense of inadequacy. Didn't deserve her, she needs something else, can't make her happy, etc. etc. I think it is often the case with young women too.

It sounds like you are speaking from experience. When a guy had self-esteem issues after you made him feel inadequate (inadvertently, of course), what did you do? Did you find yourself less attracted to him?

[s0978]

It sounds like you are speaking from experience. When a guy had self-esteem issues after you made him feel inadequate (inadvertently, of course), what did you do? Did you find yourself less attracted to him?
Um. It is not my belief that adults give each other self-esteem issues.

I do think people match up (in complex ways) or don't, and worthwhile relationships are characterized by those in which our mates can partner us to feel great about ourselves. If feelings of inadequacy arise, I guess that is the root relationship challenge to address. If there is some clear case of asymmetry, I don't know that it ever even develops into (something I would call) a Relationship.

I think I am saying I don't buy the premise of the question. But it is very late, who knows if I make sense!

[Hustler]

Um. It is not my belief that adults give each other self-esteem issues.

I do think people match up (in complex ways) or don't, and worthwhile relationships are characterized by those in which our mates can partner us to feel great about ourselves. If feelings of inadequacy arise, I guess that is the root relationship challenge to address. If there is some clear case of asymmetry, I don't know that it ever even develops into (something I would call) a Relationship.

I think I am saying I don't buy the premise of the question. But it is very late, who knows if I make sense!

What the hell kind of answer was that?

[s0978]

What the hell kind of answer was that?
I dunno, but there was some wisdom about self-esteem and relationships in there. I hope Ivy will clear it up for me before I sign back on.

[INTrePid]

are you that dense that you can't recognize that the test I used graded you on a 1-100% scale in each direction for each type??? It can go up to 100% in either direction. 0% is considered right in the middle.
Then why the hell do you sound like such a cold bastard!? I know T-men with 75% "T," and they are more sensitive than you are.

[Stoned_Rider]

Who's to blame these women for abusing this power? After all, they didn't ask for it - we're giving it to them. Wouldn't you be more curious as to why a woman isn't abusing this power? It'd be like having a magic wand and keeping it in your closet.

Word.

If I was an attractive woman I'd rule the fucking world. I wouldn't consider that a shallow attitude - I'd be stupid not to use anything at my disposal to get what I want.
Someone made a point about how attractive women can get used as well. I say that only applies to stupid attractive women. I think I would be clever enough to be able to trick people into thinking they are using me, when in reality the joke's on them. The world is full of creeps and I will not feel sorry for any pathetic, horny bastard whose only motive is to fuck.

PS - To Brad, I admire the way you speak your mind honestly and I can relate to many of the things you say. Keep it up and don't give a toss about anyone!

[Brad324]

Then why the hell do you sound like such a cold bastard!? I know T-men with 75% "T," and they are more sensitive than you are.

Did you read your last few posts? It was filled with cheapshots and insults. You had it coming.



PS - To Brad, I admire the way you speak your mind honestly and I can relate to many of the things you say. Keep it up and don't give a toss about anyone!

Thanks alot dude. Means alot.

[Miss Anthropic]

Word.

If I was an attractive woman I'd rule the fucking world. I wouldn't consider that a shallow attitude - I'd be stupid not to use anything at my disposal to get what I want.
Someone made a point about how attractive women can get used as well. I say that only applies to stupid attractive women. I think I would be clever enough to be able to trick people into thinking they are using me, when in reality the joke's on them. The world is full of creeps and I will not feel sorry for any pathetic, horny bastard whose only motive is to fuck.

PS - To Brad, I admire the way you speak your mind honestly and I can relate to many of the things you say. Keep it up and don't give a toss about anyone!

Using sex for power won't get you very far. Unfortunately women using sex to manipulate men aren't able to garner quite enough clout to rule the world. I don't even think it requires being terribly attractive to be manipulative and using. It might serve one well in the pursuit of material goods, but that's about it. You sound rather bitter and like you might be projecting your true feelings onto others.

[TPol]

I agree with Miss Anthropic on this one:
"...Even as an attractive teenager I didn't have a clue as to the power I could have had over boys just in regards to sex alone. As an attractive middle-aged woman I am just now realizing the power that women at any age have over men with regards to sex. Girls and young women and some women at any age frequently don't know themselves well enough to handle a relationship with maturity..."

Just a bit to add to the discussion (which is an interesting topic, Brad324):

I was distant enough from people that I didn't recognize the games that COULD be played until I got to college and saw some of the women around me playing them. Some of the tactics do make sense in deciphering a guy's character and goals. I don't think I consciously manipulated guys, but I imagine I did..or it seemed that way to them, perhaps. Women also "test" other women, too, in order to discover whether or not a new acquaintance would get all consumed with jealousy and be a rotten friend. One I know goes overboard with this and bugs a lot of people, men & women alike.

Sample tests she does to find true female friends:

Attractive woman wanting friend: (said off-topic and unexpectedly; for shock value?) "Guys fall all over me. I cannot help it."
Target woman: (sometimes reacts with "Oh, I know what you mean. They do it to me, too."; sometimes she is so thrown off by the blurted comment she doesn't say anything and goes on with original line of conversation; sometimes she says something like, "Well, aren't you just full of yourself?" or "Oh, I'm sure that's such a burden," in a sarcastic tone.)

Attractive woman: "My eyes are just so beautiful. Don't you think?"
Target woman: "I hadn't really noticed" or "Not really." (woman with self-esteem issues or truly being honest & more tests are needed).
Target woman: "Yes, I've noticed that. Your eyes are gorgeous." (woman sure of herself and likely would be a true friend free of pettiness)
Target woman: (blank stare) "Uh, sure. Yeah." (blindsided woman who doesn't quite know how to react; more testing needed)

Attractive woman: (actively flirts with the target woman's SO and watches the target woman to see her reaction)
Target woman: If she gets completely bent out of shape, the friendship may not be able to go the distance. If she approaches the testing woman directly and calmly to discuss, testing woman backs off from the SO completely and knows the friendship will stand the test of time. If there's no reaction, there may be a variety of explanations.

On another note, I've seen where attractive guys are equally guilty of working the whole "beauty system." I'm reminded of a guy back in school who thought he was the cat's meow. I didn't fawn all over him like the majority, and I think that bewildered him a bit. He was drawn to me like I was a curiosity, which then allowed me to see his whole arsenal of tools.
Example of one: He flashed me one of his winning smiles and flirted a bit, then said, "I'm not getting this class. I need your help. Meet me tonight."
My response: "I'm not a tutor in this class. Brian is."
Him: "I don't want a tutor. I want to copy your homework."
My response: "Forget it. Do your own work, and get a tutor."
Him: (look of shock; at a loss on how to react)

[faith]

Just a word to the wise, the heart of male bonding is giving and receiving help to someone. It mimics the father son/relationship. One guy takes on the paternal role and instructs the other guy about how to do something. Most guys are going to take you receiving help as bonding in someway, most likely romantically.

This is a generalization, but I think it's very true.

Female bonding, as far as I'm concerned, seems to mimic mother/daughter relationships, with one taking on the maternal role of sympathetic listener.

In my experience guys and girls get this majorly wrong. When a guy ask a female for help/instruction, that's a big thing and girls typically miss it completely, and likewise, when a girl opens up about something that's bothering her, guys tend not to do a good job of picking up on how big of thing that is.

Is this really true? Guys, do you agree with the asking-for-help thing?

If it's true, I'm going into mourning for all my lost opportunities. How could I be so blindingly stupid? :banghead:

[charred_heart]

Is this really true? Guys, do you agree with the asking-for-help thing?

If it's true, I'm going into mourning for all my lost opportunities. How could I be so blindingly stupid? :banghead:that's very true for me. It depends, other guys want to feel they are seen as protective gaurdians, or wise and responsible.

[digesthisickness]

Is this really true? Guys, do you agree with the asking-for-help thing?

If it's true, I'm going into mourning for all my lost opportunities. How could I be so blindingly stupid? :banghead:

that caught my attention too. and, if it's true then does it only count if he offers? or does it also count if the girl asks for help and he obliges? if the girl asks, but this isn't a moment in which it has a deeper meaning, then what would the guy say instead of helping? or would he help, but do it in a certain way?

questions questions if that's actually true. it's quite interesting if it is. and i'd have to kick my own ass also, faith. :(


that's very true for me. It depends, other guys want to feel they are seen as protective gaurdians, or wise and responsible.

i'm most interested though in how an NT male would go about this. they are the most difficult to figure out when it comes to relationships, in my view.

you're good at starting threads charred. :devil:

so why not start one on this and enlighten us females? afterall, it would benefit the males also.

[abathur]

Just think about this--how often do you see men ask for help? I'd say, if you're being asked for help it's a big thing. Granted, it's possible that it's big, but not romantic, but it's definitely a big vote of confidence. We're conditioned not to need help, not to want help, not to ask for help, etc. Needing help is weakness and I'd say that, in any instance, if a guy is intentionally exposing weakness to you there's a healthy implied degree of trust. At worst, it's probably generalizable (in most cases) to, "I want to spend time with you badly enough that I will reveal a weakness to do so."

If you're getting offered the help, there's a degree of caring behind that. I don't know about other guys but I'd say that if I'm offering you help I have some vested interest in seeing you do well. I'll offer help to girls I'm not romantically interested in, but I won't offer help to someone I don't care a good bit about.

If you ask and he complies it's probably rather similar. One of my friends asked me to come study latin with her a couple times last year. Group study time isn't really how I learn and meant I had to invest exta time studying later, but I was still there to do it because she asked.

If a girl I didn't care about asked? Hmm. Never has happened but I'd probably look for an excuse to get out of it and wonder why she asked me. Granted, I don't spend much time around people I don't care much about, so it's not like I'd have some chick I just want to fuck and dump ask me for help. I guess that's a bit of a confounding variable, though. I think most guys will ALSO do just about anything to get some action.

At least from my perspective I'd give more credit to a guy who is extending some sort of offer rather than just accepting.

[faith]

So a guy asking a girl for help is similar to a girl sharing her feelings with a guy. Not ALWAYS a sign of romantic interest, but a sign of trust and confidence and affection.

What if he's already doing a great job and you don't have much to offer in the way of help? Is that somehow rejecting him and his willingness to be vulnerable? Does it signify a lack of interest in his situation? What would be a possible and appropriate response from a girl who's interested in the guy, but really doesn't feel she can help him much?

If a girl asks a guy for help, will he interpret that to be an indication of her trust, confidence, etc.?

--This may be better explored in another thread. I'm asking help from any intelligent guy: Please start a thread so we can learn and understand.

[charred_heart]

you're good at starting threads charred. :devil:

so why not start one on this and enlighten us females? afterall, it would benefit the males also.lol! i probably started like 3 threads in all my time here!
okey

[digesthisickness]

okay, first, thanks a bunch abathur for such a thorough response. :) sorry, in advance for my long post, but like i said, this really interests me. hopefully more guys wll chime in and give their views too. :)


Just think about this--how often do you see men ask for help? I'd say, if you're being asked for help it's a big thing. Granted, it's possible that it's big, but not romantic, but it's definitely a big vote of confidence. We're conditioned not to need help, not to want help, not to ask for help, etc. Needing help is weakness and I'd say that, in any instance, if a guy is intentionally exposing weakness to you there's a healthy implied degree of trust. At worst, it's probably generalizable (in most cases) to, "I want to spend time with you badly enough that I will reveal a weakness to do so."

this is a great insight, and definitely one worth paying attention to, but what i was concentrating on (not sure about faith) was the difference between situations in which the girl asks for help and those where he offers (but out of niceness, likes her romantically, or just trying to get laid). is there a difference in how he'd act/speak/handle it if she did the asking and she means anything to him if it's a situation in which she asked and he helped? (dealing purely here with 'relationships' and 'girls')


If you're getting offered the help, there's a degree of caring behind that. I don't know about other guys but I'd say that if I'm offering you help I have some vested interest in seeing you do well. I'll offer help to girls I'm not romantically interested in, but I won't offer help to someone I don't care a good bit about.

i wonder if there's a clue that would help the girl be able to tell if he's offering to help, because he likes her romantically, just wanting sex (though that last one, i'm pretty good at noticing, so no need with that one) or if he's just being nice.


If you ask and he complies it's probably rather similar. One of my friends asked me to come study latin with her a couple times last year. Group study time isn't really how I learn and meant I had to invest exta time studying later, but I was still there to do it because she asked.

and that had nothing to do with liking her romantically?


If a girl I didn't care about asked? Hmm. Never has happened but I'd probably look for an excuse to get out of it and wonder why she asked me. Granted, I don't spend much time around people I don't care much about, so it's not like I'd have some chick I just want to fuck and dump ask me for help. I guess that's a bit of a confounding variable, though. I think most guys will ALSO do just about anything to get some action.

ha! that was the only thing that i'd already suspected was true. i suppose i'm just curous about the difference is between just trying to score, and when she matters to him as more than a lay and more than a friend.


At least from my perspective I'd give more credit to a guy who is extending some sort of offer rather than just accepting.

yeah, this was the easiest to figure out. i assumed that when a guy just helps that he's just being nice. however, i suppose it's the different ways he'd go about it that caught my attention. i.e. how to tell what his motivations are when she asks him for help and he obliges help to her.

i may have said something wrong. i didn't mean if a girl asked for help but didn't really want help. no. actually i don't know why a girl would do that myself (unless of course it would mean something if he obliged, and she wanted to see, be able to tell the difference, by how he'd go about helping. to get an idea about how he feels.

i meant, if it's not a moment that consists of him offering without being asked by the girl, but instead, a moment in which she asked and he helped, then could that still mean something... other than sex or niceness? if so, how could she tell what would be the clue/s?

and if it doesn't mean anything when he helps (other than just friendship), then how would the girl be able to differentiate that scenerio from one in which he does care? would he help? would he not help? or would he help, but do it in a certain way (like saying something while helping or after or before, or the way that he helps) that would give her a clue about whether or not this is one of the moments that she should pay attention to or not.

[digesthisickness]

lol! i probably started like 3 threads in all my time here!
okey

and? i have faith in you!

[last_caress]

Jesus, this is like trying to divine winning lottery numbers from sheep entrails.
The only real way to know is to talk to the guy about it.

[C.J.Woolf]

Jesus, this is like trying to divine winning lottery numbers from sheep entrails.
The only real way to know is to talk to the guy about it.
Reading sheep entrails can't hurt your feelings. It only hurts the sheep.

[last_caress]

Reading sheep entrails can't hurt your feelings. It only hurts the sheep.

So what? Most guys have to face that on a regular basis.
Offers of help are too ambiguous IMO for anything conclusive to be determined, especially when splitting motivational hairs.

[digesthisickness]

Jesus, this is like trying to divine winning lottery numbers from sheep entrails.
The only real way to know is to talk to the guy about it.

yeah, but see that's just it. it was brought up as a difference in how females and males interract with one another, and especially about how INTPs (or maybe NTs in general) are even harder to read, so these little clues help. and the way to get a clue and learn, is to ask. yes, asking them is one option, but there are times when asking other guys helps even more. especially when that person isn't the type to express their feelings well.

i only asked because i was intersted. if it's too hard to answer, that's cool. i'll live.

(also, there are things going on that i haven't shared, and so i was hoping to gain insight. but yeah, i did ask a lot. understandable if no one wants to answer)

[C.J.Woolf]

Reading sheep entrails can't hurt your feelings. It only hurts the sheep.

So what? Most guys have to face that on a regular basis.
Just explaining why sheep entails are so popular. :whistle:

[last_caress]

yeah, but see that's just it. it was brought up as a difference in how females and males interract with one another, and especially about how INTPs (or maybe NTs in general) are even harder to read, so these little clues help. and the way to get a clue and learn, is to ask. yes, asking them is one option, but there are times when asking other guys helps even more. especially when that person isn't the type to express their feelings well.

i only asked because i was intersted. if it's too hard to answer, that's cool. i'll live.

(also, there are things going on that i haven't shared, and so i was hoping to gain insight. but yeah, i did ask a lot. understandable if no one wants to answer)

Look, I realized I am being a bit hypocritical here.
I do the same thing, analyze the shit out of things and usually don't end up any more certain than I was to start with.
That was my point.

I'd like to help you, but trying to determine much conclusive from the given data/'offers of help' is too general.

[abathur]

this is a great insight, and definitely one worth paying attention to, but what i was concentrating on (not sure about faith) was the difference between situations in which the girl asks for help and those where he offers (but out of niceness, likes her romantically, or just trying to get laid). is there a difference in how he'd act/speak/handle it if she did the asking and she means anything to him if it's a situation in which she asked and he helped? (dealing purely here with 'relationships' and 'girls')
Probably not enough to easily judge. I guess when the going gets rough enough you're going to figure out who the real friends are and aren't. If there are some good indicators they might be:

1.) what he's willing to drop to come do this
2.) whether or not he seems to have a sense of entitlement to reciprocation

I think a real friend, platonic or romantic, will be far more concerned about you than getting anything back for the effort.





i wonder if there's a clue that would help the girl be able to tell if he's offering to help, because he likes her romantically, just wanting sex (though that last one, i'm pretty good at noticing, so no need with that one) or if he's just being nice.
"Just being nice" makes it sound like he doesn't want to do this but is just too goddamn nice not to. I'd say there's some room between here and liking her romantically. I can care very deeply for someone I'm not romantically in love with. I'm not sure I'd see doing things for them as "just being nice" as opposed to "just being a friend" or "just showing I care."

If a guy is hanging around, there is, in all likelihood, SOME potential for a relationship between the two of you. To some degree, I think almost all guys are sexually selective even in who they'll be friends with. I have female friends that I don't really think a relationship could work with, don't feel any romantic attraction towards and yet, I wouldn't at all "rule out" the potential for there to be a viable relationship there. That is to say, if you can pick out the guy who just wants sex, the only difference between the friend and the one seeking a relationship is the presence of immediate romantic attraction.

Likewise, I find that if my earlier judgements about a girl I've allowed within arms reach pan out, immediate romantic attraction may crop up as I get to know her better, whether I want it to or not.



and that had nothing to do with liking her romantically?
I guess you could argue that it does on some subconscious level and I won't acknowledge it, but I've never really felt romantically attracted to her, and I see various things that say to me, "a relationship with her would probably not pan out." That said, I have thought about what sort of couple we might make, years down the road. If we could get together and get it all to pan out, I think I'd like that place very much. That doesn't really change the fact that I'm not romantically attracted, though. In a non-romantic capacity, however, I'm amazingly fond of her and would do neigh anything if it would help her out. I'm pretty sure that's not a two-way street, but reciprocation is rather irrelevant as far as I'm concerned. Sometimes, I wish I didn't care--yet I do.





ha! that was the only thing that i'd already suspected was true. i suppose i'm just curous about the difference is between just trying to score, and when she matters to him as more than a lay and more than a friend.

I'd object to this again, but perhaps I'm too much of an idealist. I think it's possible to care as much about a friend as a romantic partner, hell, even more (unless you're already IN a full blown relationship with someone, I'd be highly suspect of their ability to "care" for you more than someone you count as a friend. If a fresh prospect has shown up on the scene and within weeks "cares" more about you than any of your friends do, I'd say he's either manipulating you for sex, or manipulating you for a relationship unless he's pretty obviously head-over-heels for you.) Really, I see "romantic partner" as an extension of friendship, though. Anyways, you're not going to get a magic bullet answer that says one way or another, I don't expect.




i meant, if it's not a moment that consists of him offering without being asked by the girl, but instead, a moment in which she asked and he helped, then could that still mean something... other than sex or niceness? if so, how could she tell what would be the clue/s?
Of course it could. I'm not sure you'll get that cut and dry of a determinant. Maybe in the rest of his behavior. If he's continually trying to get closer to you, it's more likely that he wants a relationship, but it's still remotely possible that he just wants more out of a friendship than he's getting, too.



and if it doesn't mean anything when he helps (other than just friendship), then how would the girl be able to differentiate that scenerio from one in which he does care? would he help? would he not help? or would he help, but do it in a certain way (like saying something while helping or after or before, or the way that he helps) that would give her a clue about whether or not this is one of the moments that she should pay attention to or not.

There's that "just" friendship shit again. Maybe it's just because I have so few friends, but I take my friendships rather seriously. I might say we're, "just" acquaintances, but I digress. If he's helping out, especially if it's something big (and you don't think he's just after sex,) I'd assume he's a high quality friend and look for clues that he wants more of you than he's getting.

[darlets]

In general, a persons major role models for bonding are their parents. So male bonding is based on father/son, female on mother/daugther and cross gender(?) on your bonding with your opposite sex parent, father/daughter and mother/son.

I don't always think that bonding is romantic, in the sense that if a guy ask you for help, it probably means he just feels really, really comfortable around you. Guys are meant to be able to handle anything, by asking for help, his letting done his guard and showing a level of trust he probably doesn't display to many people. Thats a big thing for them.

I don't think girls pick up on that. Some girls pick up on the other direction of this, asking for a guys help and other don't. Some girls play on it to an extreme, and play the helpless victim for the guy to come help. Others I think quite innocently don't quite realize what they're playing with when they ask for help. They're just asking for help, it just doesn't dawn on them that it's anything more. Guys are wired growing up that this is bonding.

Now, this is all just my opinion and it could be full of shit. But to put it simple, what if a guy puts the same weight on a girl asking for help as she would put on opening up emotionally to a guy???? You can see how this would cause major miscommunication.

It's just bonding, not necessarly romantically but there's been situations where I've ask for help from female friends and they've given it but there was no new level of bonding afterwards. It wasn't until I reflected on it afterwards that I noticed. To them, it was just another interaction, but if it been a guy we would have felt closer. And growth in our mateship.

I think there is a female equivelent, maybe sharing emotional problems. Sometimes I notice that with girls, they'll tell you stuff and you don't pay it enough attention and they seem like they wanted more. Platonic bonding. ????????

I can't really answer the girl side of the fence.

It's just an observation, and I think the genders screw it up more often than not. I'm sure there's stuff girls do in female/female bonding which when they interact with a guy like that, they quite innocently expect the guy to female closer to them, but from the guys point of view it's just another interaction.

[digesthisickness]

Look, I realized I am being a bit hypocritical here.
I do the same thing, analyze the shit out of things and usually don't end up any more certain than I was to start with.
That was my point.


I'd like to help you, but trying to determine much conclusive from the given data/'offers of help' is too general.

yeah. hmmm. i really appreciate your attempts to help. see, the thing is that the person in question is an NT, and so he pulls away when hurt, and doesn't clue me in about what i've done wrong. yet, recently, i asked for his help with something and he IMed and helped me with very good advice. so this came to mind when i saw what darlets wrote, so it piqued my interest... causing me to wonder if i'd missed something when this person has helped me many times before... with comp issues, philosophy, psychology, music, art, he IS an NT.


Probably not enough to easily judge. I guess when the going gets rough enough you're going to figure out who the real friends are and aren't. If there are some good indicators they might be:

1.) what he's willing to drop to come do this
2.) whether or not he seems to have a sense of entitlement to reciprocation

I think a real friend, platonic or romantic, will be far more concerned about you than getting anything back for the effort.

this helped a lot. damn, nothing like numbered examples. :) and informative too. sometimes, when one is in the middle of a situation, it becomes foggy and one loses perspective. usually, when looking at someone else's situation it's quite clear, but when it comes to something very personal... ugh. i lose the ability to see the reasonable picture. getting bogged down in details and reading them wrong, etc.


If a guy is hanging around, there is, in all likelihood, SOME potential for a relationship between the two of you. To some degree, I think almost all guys are sexually selective even in who they'll be friends with.

hmmm. interesting. and, food for thought.


I have female friends that I don't really think a relationship could work with, don't feel any romantic attraction towards and yet, I wouldn't at all "rule out" the potential for there to be a viable relationship there. That is to say, if you can pick out the guy who just wants sex, the only difference between the friend and the one seeking a relationship is the presence of immediate romantic attraction.

i like this. the relationship i'm speaking of is one that was taken beyond friendship (into a sexual one in addition to friendship), but he's not expressive in his feelings, and while that's fine, i'm willing to read between lines, etc. but see, in order to do this, then when some new clue has been presented to me (like this gift of services/help) has done, then it gives me a way to be more understanding.


Likewise, I find that if my earlier judgements about a girl I've allowed within arms reach pan out, immediate romantic attraction may crop up as I get to know her better, whether I want it to or not.

me too. the last time i fell in love was at a moment in my life in which i was damned an determined not to let the friendship become more, to not get attached. unfortunately, love doesn't give a horse's patootie what you plan. :(



I guess you could argue that it does on some subconscious level and I won't acknowledge it, but I've never really felt romantically attracted to her, and I see various things that say to me, "a relationship with her would probably not pan out." That said, I have thought about what sort of couple we might make, years down the road. If we could get together and get it all to pan out, I think I'd like that place very much. That doesn't really change the fact that I'm not romantically attracted, though. In a non-romantic capacity, however, I'm amazingly fond of her and would do neigh anything if it would help her out. I'm pretty sure that's not a two-way street, but reciprocation is rather irrelevant as far as I'm concerned. Sometimes, I wish I didn't care--yet I do.

god, isn't that the worst feeling? you want so badly not to care, but can't help it. i feel for you. i really do. i wish i could help.


I'd object to this again, but perhaps I'm too much of an idealist. I think it's possible to care as much about a friend as a romantic partner, hell, even more (unless you're already IN a full blown relationship with someone, I'd be highly suspect of their ability to "care" for you more than someone you count as a friend.

hmm. yes. sometimes though.. especially when it's two NTs (it seems like to me) the people find themselves not quite sure if it's a romantic relationship or just friends. we talked for hours a day and had a sexual relationship, but never came right out and said, "this is a relationship" ugh. so, it's still difficult to ascertain which it really was... a friendship or more.


If a fresh prospect has shown up on the scene and within weeks "cares" more about you than any of your friends do, I'd say he's either manipulating you for sex, or manipulating you for a relationship unless he's pretty obviously head-over-heels for you.)

ha! oh, how i wish i could tell the difference. he didn't do the first (saying things that i'd be suspicious of, like 'caring' for me after just a short period of time), we just spoke for hours a day IMing (which went on for a couple of months before we met in person and began the sexual part while still continuing with the IMing), it was clearly flirtation at times, though more intellectual talk, and being NT, (which i know isn't a dead give-away, but helps some), then noticing or showing that it was 'obvously head over heels' was/is a problem. is it even possible, i wonder to know if an INTX is head over heels? :mellow:


Really, I see "romantic partner" as an extension of friendship, though. Anyways, you're not going to get a magic bullet answer that says one way or another, I don't expect.

yeah, i know you're right, but any information in addition to what i've come up with on my own can't hurt. especially on ths forum. :)


Of course it could. I'm not sure you'll get that cut and dry of a determinant. Maybe in the rest of his behavior. If he's continually trying to get closer to you, it's more likely that he wants a relationship, but it's still remotely possible that he just wants more out of a friendship than he's getting, too.

hmmm. hmmmm.


There's that "just" friendship shit again. Maybe it's just because I have so few friends, but I take my friendships rather seriously. I might say we're, "just" acquaintances, but I digress. If he's helping out, especially if it's something big (and you don't think he's just after sex,) I'd assume he's a high quality friend and look for clues that he wants more of you than he's getting.

this is possible. very possible. i just wish he'd speak up and say.

thank you so much for taking the time to answer. you really did help a lot. i appreciate your taking the time. *sigh* even though we're in this limbo right now, not on, not off, then i suppose it's information that i'm just attempting to gather. i may take the advice and just ask. couldn't hurt. or, well couldn't make things worse. :)

sorry everyone for derailing... and to such a criminal degree.

[Prozac]

sorry everyone for derailing... and to such a criminal degree.


yeah to a massive lilliputian scale.. i say this with the force of giant fan blowing the wheat off chaff.. kidding, you heartthrob

as to the thread:

at times i felt as if i was peeking inside a submarine porthole and watching 100 blindfolded clowns smiling with razors as teeth, posturing and testing without any regard to the idea that certain crustacean add flavor, like a series of tattoo, steel skin and the wonder of security.. a carefully crafted vessel might be incapable of interchange beyond the so-called normal mode of social camouflage.. this no matter the nautical training ..

good job.. no one replied to tpol's post.. why?

those barnacle of wisdom hides just below the surface.. ugly, but alive, able to withstand much open-sea abuse.. as well as the many comments uttered by those mariner who scrub the hulls while docked.. these cone-shaped shell grow up into maturity (they notbe mollusks)they are well-traveled too.. tpol yorr post reeks of stealthy concepts that humans, by and large, here and there, male and female, and all those in-between and them alien from inner and outer space...might wish to make note..

sort of -- xray into the female psyche? take heed..

[Maartinho]

If you're getting offered the help, there's a degree of caring behind that. I don't know about other guys but I'd say that if I'm offering you help I have some vested interest in seeing you do well. I'll offer help to girls I'm not romantically interested in, but I won't offer help to someone I don't care a good bit about.

If a guy offers help it may not always be because he takes an interest in you. He may also like to show off his knowledge and skills. Men generally like doing this, even if it doesn't immediately serve any obvious purpose of impressing a woman, helping a friend etc.

[faith]

good job.. no one replied to tpol's post.. why?

Because it seemed very complete; there was nothing I could add. I agree with it, but that's sort of like saying I agree that the sun is bright.

I've seen girls pull these kinds of tests on one another. I've had girls test me in these kinds of ways. It generally amuses me because of its obviousness, and I begin to think of the other girl as a shallow little dunce who can't see that the friendship in question goes far beyond jealousies over men. I don't dislike her for it, but I make a note in her "friendship file" that she may have a few issues.

Any tests that I do myself are closer to what Toonia described: putting myself into a vulnerable position to see how the other person responds. If they respond well to that, I ask them to put themselves into a vulnerable position to see how honest and trusting they are. Usually I do it without conscious forethought, and only if the friendship is developing in such a way that it would be useful information.

In dating relationships, I test them by being myself. By trying to let them see the sort of person I really am--not just my polite, congenial face to the world. If they're okay with that, great. If not, now we both know not to waste our time.

[TPol]

(smile) I sometimes don't respond to posts for the same reason faith gave, so I don't think much about it when it happens to me. But, thank you, Prozac. As you can see by my custom user title, I got a kick out of your analogies.

I also do Toonia's test as described. I think the tests I described in my post are kind of odd and irritating. But, Toonia's test seems fairly productive. I have few qualms about making myself vulnerable so I can see how people respond to that. I used to be really trusting, but have been burned in "friendship" enough that I do have one test I perform regularly. I usually "reveal" something about myself (that I don't mind leaking to the public) to a potential friend then beg them to keep it to themselves. Then, I keep my ear to the gossip chains to see if it's been passed along. If so, I know better than to trust them as a confidante.

[C.J.Woolf]

...I do have one test I perform regularly. I usually "reveal" something about myself (that I don't mind leaking to the public) to a potential friend then beg them to keep it to themselves. Then, I keep my ear to the gossip chains to see if it's been passed along. If so, I know better than to trust them as a confidante.
Good idea. It's also a piece of spy tradecraft; the KGB called it "barium".

[Prozac]

Because it seemed very complete; there was nothing I could add.
.

yah i agree.. thing is, look at the exchange between braddxxx and attila

**snickers** i think he missed madrigal's 8 thread..

somehow i knew pluto was going to get the shaft, a deficit moon, ohh goodie..


I agree with it, but that's sort of like saying I agree that the sun is bright.


my horrorscope honed in on that one.. i adore variety

[Prozac]

(smile) I sometimes don't respond to posts for the same reason faith gave, so I don't think much about it when it happens to me.
.

well i notice no male responded, but see the patterns, the rotations, the predictable manner of thought.. its not a choice, like hmm public school or private, i wonder

no no, its hereditary dynasties, cataracts in the minds eye of the alpha, omega and anyother male.. and female too, perhaps.. nearsightedness..

who knows?

- my loyalty lies.. with the barnacles




As you can see by my custom user title, I got a kick out of your analogies.

nice.. i hate when the barnacle gets torn asunder, ripped off the surface of true kinship.. the scourge of nepotism i suppose, must be somewhere in the manual,, maybe page 666



I also do Toonia's test as described. I think the tests I described in my post are kind of odd and irritating.


i find nothing wrong with any tests, thing is.. we could share the bittersweet truths till we barf of nectar overload.. but it only sustains a guidance that torments the disinterested..

we could always just blame the genes.. or a bad horrorscope sign..

[purple13]

You have this way wrong. Girls do crazy weird stuff when they are teenagers because they don't know who they are or what they want. Even as an attractive teenager I didn't have a clue as to the power I could have had over boys just in regards to sex alone. As an attractive middle-aged woman I am just now realizing the power that women at any age have over men with regards to sex. Girls and young women and some women at any age frequently don't know themselves well enough to handle a relationship with maturity. You are making women out to be more conniving than most of them are. The bottom line is women and men think in completely different ways when it comes to relationships and sex so essentially they are playing the same game using different rules and it creates confusion between them. Men are more similiar to each other and women are far more varied in their inner workings....don't even try to reason it out.

That last sentence is kind of sexist though, IMO.

[purple13]

Do I know how to kill a thread, or what?!

[Miss Anthropic]

Do I know how to kill a thread, or what?!

Yep, its dead. My last statement may have seemed sexist to you, but it is a fact that the Y chromosome contains less genetic material than the X chromosome and in sexual functioning (in the very least) women vary far more from woman to woman than guys do from man to man. Women are far more complicated creatures in general, and that isn't meant to be an insult to men, or women for that matter.

[Wiki]

Women are far more complicated creatures in general.

I couldnt agree with you more. I have had far more complications cause by women than any other creature.

[purple13]

Okay, I agree at the genetic level, but I don't know if you can extrapolate that to mean "in general"? Having said that, I also agree with Wiki. How's that for complex?

[LongSilence]

I also agree. I will add that with less complex internal goings on men tend to have an easier freedom with their external ones, in general.

[LazyReed]

Do you think attractive women are as shallow as you describe them? Most of them

[abathur]

I don't think it's the case with naturally attractive women, but I think a lot of the women who put the extra effort into looking attractive are. Likewise, I'm not really at all attracted to that sort of "beauty." Perhaps there are some incredibly deep people who walk around looking like that, but my experience says they're a loooong way from the majority and the behavior of the rest kinda spoil that appearance for me.

[JollyNerd]

Just wanted to pop in and say that this was a fairly well-informative thread. I never really thought of girls telling all about their issues, past relationships, etc as having any meaning. Also, wanted to mention that Abarthur's views match mine fairly closely.

[Toonia]

Men are more similiar to each other and women are far more varied in their inner workings....don't even try to reason it out.
Both genders can vary greatly. One could make the argument that the maternal instinct does more to unite the female gender. But, even with that I know women who care almost nothing for their children.

Some very good point have been made here regarding how "beautiful" is defined. Is it a genetically proportioned woman, or a highly commercialized appearance? Extreme makeover should help make this distinction, right? There is also some difference between an aesthetically beautiful woman and a socially powerful woman. The socially powerful woman will always be in more demand sexually because the social rewards are greater for the man. Which do you think a shallow man would prefer: an established model with fame and money, or a quiet, somewhat socially backwards girl living in poverty who possesses astoundingly graceful features? Is it the cheerleader or the silent wallflower for most? Beauty is rarely an end in itself for most people. For many (fewer INTP's perhaps) the primary desire is social attention, power, and the financial means to fill ones desires. Women who can assist with these goals are most sought after.

[Jinx]

Once you understand, you'll understand.

[Shimpei]

Once you understand, you'll understand.

so true

[Purple-Silver Fox]

Yep, its dead. My last statement may have seemed sexist to you, but it is a fact that the Y chromosome contains less genetic material than the X chromosome and in sexual functioning (in the very least) women vary far more from woman to woman than guys do from man to man. Women are far more complicated creatures in general, and that isn't meant to be an insult to men, or women for that matter.
That is wrong. Men do have an X chromosome as well, but instead of a mirroring X, that potentially corrects deviations, they have a Y. That is why a number of inheritable diseases show up only in men. Their asymmetric chromosomal structure ensures more diversity in fenotypes. They are really genetically the most experimental sex. Check the numbers: deviations from the mean, for better or worse, are most often men.

[Ferrus]

That is why a number of inheritable diseases show up only in men. Their asymmetric chromosomal structure ensures more diversity in fenotypes.
*Phenotypes.

Anyway you are right. Although there aren't too many genetic diseases that occur exclusively in men: what one finds is that they occur far more often in men. And women can carry these recessive genes too. Colour blindness is a classic example.

I love reading feminist bullshit where they start talking about how having an extra X chromosone makes woman have "two sides" and "two people in one" hence making them more complex and advanced. Clearly in their rabid attempt to man bash they have neglected to notice the difference between a persona, a "soul" if you wish, and a chromosone that is no more than a strand of DNA - albeit an important one - that is just off set by the other chromosone in determining the chemical structure of the body.

[Mr.Miagi]

In conclusion, life as an attractive woman doesn't seem like all it's cut out to be.

This is a good thread. I believe all woman should be attractive. And I think they can be. For some it takes just more work than others. And regarding manipulating, mind-games, abusing your sex-appeal etc... for every attractive girl using that means, two non-attractive girls does exactly the same thing. They're just less succesfull.

[purple13]

I guess that's the way I reacted at first, Ferrus. You can't infer the complexity of personality (intellectual, emotional, spiritual, etc.) by genetic make-up.

[SensEye]

The socially powerful woman will always be in more demand sexually because the social rewards are greater for the man. I don't think this is the case. I've seen a fair number of surveys/studies that show intelligent career women have a much more difficult time attracting mates than attractive bimbo's.



Is it the cheerleader or the silent wallflower for most? Cheerleader, hands down.



Beauty is rarely an end in itself for most people. For many (fewer INTP's perhaps) the primary desire is social attention, power, and the financial means to fill ones desires. Women who can assist with these goals are most sought after.You don't understand the male ego in this regard. While the primary desires are accurate, a women who is superior to the man in acheiving these goals is not always sought.

[The Ninth Ninja]

hey not all men will drop everything for an attractive woman.. and tbh I find them kind of annoying these days. Their lives will always be damned easy in comparison with normal folk and they just seem to remind me that "life's not fair". Of course rich people have the same effect, but one can always delude oneself that they'll be rich one of these days...

[Miss Anthropic]

That is wrong. Men do have an X chromosome as well, but instead of a mirroring X, that potentially corrects deviations, they have a Y. That is why a number of inheritable diseases show up only in men. Their asymmetric chromosomal structure ensures more diversity in fenotypes. They are really genetically the most experimental sex. Check the numbers: deviations from the mean, for better or worse, are most often men.
Yes, but women have two X's--men have one. There is less genetic material on the Y. One X, one Y, less genetic material.

[Ferrus]

I guess that's the way I reacted at first, Ferrus.
I wasn't reacting to Miss Anthropic per se; rather it was the drivel I have read in the comments sections of newspapers in the past that her post was redolent of.

[shum]

i was just freaked out by my cab driiver.
he kept saying how pretty he thought i was. and then he suggested that i ride for free.
i could have laughed it all off until he grabbed my arm.

not all, but most men suck and are mean.

[Miss Anthropic]

I wasn't reacting to Miss Anthropic per se; rather it was the drivel I have read in the comments sections of newspapers in the past that her post was redolent of.
That is the problem when people take studies and look at a kernal of truth to what has been examined and then build a huge story out of context to support their agenda. My intent was not man-bashing...but there are inherent differences in the way men and women perceive and process the world. These are not culturally driven. The simplest way to illustrate it is to look at the sexual functioning of men vs. women. Men's responses are much more predictable and with women, they are more varied. To simplify it even more, there is a joke about men having an on-off switch and women having a NASA switchboard.

[Zephyrus055]

That is the problem when people take studies and look at a kernal of truth to what has been examined and then build a huge story out of context to support their agenda. My intent was not man-bashing...but there are inherent differences in the way men and women perceive and process the world. These are not culturally driven. The simplest way to illustrate it is to look at the sexual functioning of men vs. women. Men's responses are much more predictable and with women, they are more varied. To simplify it even more, there is a joke about men having an on-off switch and women having a NASA switchboard.
You have a NASA switchboard?

[Ferrus]

That is the problem when people take studies and look at a kernal of truth to what has been examined and then build a huge story out of context to support their agenda. My intent was not man-bashing...but there are inherent differences in the way men and women perceive and process the world... The simplest way to illustrate it is to look at the sexual functioning of men vs. women. Men's responses are much more predictable and with women, they are more varied.
Emotionally and sexually men are far less complex, yes, I am willing to agree fully there.

However to suggest men are much less complex psychologically and socially is a mistake - men's social roles are, and have been for all of human existence, far more complex and diverse than women. It would be a lie to say that intellecual, political and economic life has been dominated by men because of their more complex social role. Psychologically men are just as likely to suffer from mental illness and indeed seem to attract a larger panoply of such conditions - often linked to the simply sex drive that is nonetheless easy to divert and pervert in ways far more complex than most women.

[last_caress]

The Most Beautiful Woman in Town - Charles Bukowski (http://plagiarist.com/poetry/194/)

[Brad324]

The Most Beautiful Woman in Town - Charles Bukowski (http://plagiarist.com/poetry/194/)

that was an entertaining read, thanks for posting.

[ComePope]

I walk around in thongs and dazzle the women.

[INTrePid]

The Most Beautiful Woman in Town - Charles Bukowski (http://plagiarist.com/poetry/194/)
What's this? Do you know Charles? Just an interesting article you found? Suicidal? That's an ugly story.

[janitor]

Okay, so maybe I did exploit a few persons and I feel guilty about it now, but I really couldn't have managed without help and I would've been a fool not to use my cuteness to get what I *needed* (note: not what I just wanted out of the blue, but what I needed in order to survive. I also at least try to minimize the inconvenience that I cause to others when using their help, and I do have respect for the people who have helped me.)

so you used people but only because you had to? is it hard for that to not become a pattern of behavior? or is usery behind you forever?

how can you respect people that you use?

[janitor]

as far as receiving help, as discussed in this thread, unless the other party has the potential of reciprocation, i don't think they can ever be considered a friend. friendship, i think, requires a sense of equality. giving help to those that can't help you is charity, the receiver a charity case.

[Kaveri]

how can you respect people that you use?

Easily. Each relationship is about people using each other. Ideally the exploitation is mutual, though. But for me it happens so that if I use someone, even if I try to use them one-sidedly (only for my own advantage, that is), I eventually end up "accidentally" developping an emotional bond to them. It can be pretty ironic. Then I will have respect for the person merely for the reason that they have managed to bind me emotionally to them.

[Brad324]

Easily. Each relationship is about people using each other. Ideally the exploitation is mutual, though. But for me it happens so that if I use someone, even if I try to use them one-sidedly (only for my own advantage, that is), I eventually end up "accidentally" developping an emotional bond to them. It can be pretty ironic. Then I will have respect for the person merely for the reason that they have managed to bind me emotionally to them.

This is a very interesting way of putting it. I don't see how exploitation can be mutual though. And I'm not sure dating is about exploitation. How can 2 people both exploit eachother? I don't really see sex as exploitation. Dating to me is more about enjoying eachothers' company than exploiting eachother. Then again, I'll only enjoy her company for as long as she remains interesting to me. So you may be onto something.

[Kaveri]

This is a very interesting way of putting it. I don't see how exploitation can be mutual though. And I'm not sure dating is about exploitation. How can 2 people both exploit eachother? I don't really see sex as exploitation. Dating to me is more about enjoying eachothers' company than exploiting eachother. Then again, I'll only enjoy her company for as long as she remains interesting to me. So you may be onto something.

Sex is mutual and honest exploitation for example when Man uses Woman to have satisfaction and Woman uses Man to have satisfaction, or when Man uses Prostitute to get laid and Prostitute uses Man to gain money.

Sex is mutual but dishonest exploitation when Man uses Woman to experience a profound bond with a person that he's in love with but Woman only pretends to be in love with Man so as to get something from Man, like financial help.

Sex is one-sided exploitation when Man rapes Woman, for example.

Ideal love is a symbiosis, the lovers being each other's parasites. Like Jewel sings:

"I need you for dark reasons, dear
For greed and lust and seed and fear
For all the songs that I can hear
When you are near"

I know that real love doesn't feel like exploitation and a person who is genuinely in love would rather leave the object of their love alone if they thought it was best for them, but when people do something together, it's always about exploitation -- either one-sided or two-sided. If it's about neither, then the relationship is completely useless. I'm not saying that exploitation is a bad thing in this context, au contraire. I'm also not completely familiar with the English language, so if the word "exploitation" ONLY refers to one-sided usage and there is, by definition, no such thing as "mutual exploitation", then I might have to pick another word/phrase (like "utilisation"). However, the concept remains.

[boppa]

Admittedly I got bored with reading this thread after it became a Brad-bashing but.......fair question! Where did the hostility become warranted??!?

It's fair and reasonably argued that an attractive woman (one who is wanted by many) gets a lot of attention.....much of it superficial....therefore she has to have strategies in place to weed out sincere and compatible from other.....whilst not a 'classic beauty' by any means attention from unknown (& known men) can be disconcerting....my preference is - make me earn it! Don't just look, sense and idolise - know me...understand what I can offer, think about it....piss off if you think I'm a chocolate box picture-projection of your imagination....it aint gonna work if you idealise....I'm human....know me, don't idealise me....I can't live up to it.....F*u if you think I disapppoint you because I don't fit your idealised image....do you realise how crushing it can be to continually disappoint because you're not an idealised it/thing?

It was a reasonable and genuine query guys!

[Toonia]

Easily. Each relationship is about people using each other. Ideally the exploitation is mutual, though. But for me it happens so that if I use someone, even if I try to use them one-sidedly (only for my own advantage, that is), I eventually end up "accidentally" developping an emotional bond to them. It can be pretty ironic. Then I will have respect for the person merely for the reason that they have managed to bind me emotionally to them.I agree that this is often how people function, but it sounds way too calculated for my thinking. Exploitation as a word has negative conotations implying a parasitic relationship of primarily taking. It also implies dishonesty. It usually means finding ways to take the most from someone else through manipulation, taking advantage of their vulnerabilities, and not being concerned with the outcome for their lives. Usefulness may be what you primarily mean here.

I try to be "nice" to people primarily because it feels good. I feel useful and share with a little empathy the happiness they gain from my smile or encouragement. I do see it as benefitting me equally at the moment. I don't think in terms of utilizing people to my advantage in some systematic way though. That would feel very lonely and lacking in spontenaity. It's most inspiring to me to be a faciliator to see that the most people benefit the most and I am one piece in that puzzle. It also feels good personally when I see others benefit in situations that don't benefit me. I've had plenty of people try to exploit me and I refuse to have any further dealings with them. There seems to be enough people out there that just feel good being helpful without focusing on how much they can take from the other person, so those are the people who fill my days.

(not that this has anything with life as a gorgeous woman, but oh well. )

[amazingkae]

Wow--huge thread... To take this back to Brad's original post (which was interesting and has provoked a great deal of wisdom, wit, and "folly" insights for me):


No - I didn't mean to come across as saying all attractive girls manipulate men. But rather that you'd have to wonder why they don't.

Ummm... because we have to live with ourselves? Some of us do have mirrors out here and we have to LIKE what--and who--we see in the morning.

THIS SHOULD ALSO INCLUDE HAVING RESPECT FOR THE PEOPLE WHO SHARE OUR PILLOWS

In my wise old age (which is creeping rapidly nearer to 40) I find that looks matter a hell of alot less than attitude. Women and men are beautiful because of who they are--not what they look like. Trust me--I'd pay a million dollars for a dinner date with ugly man who has a heart of gold anyday and I would not pay a bloody-red cent for a lifetime trapped with the best looking Jerk in history. [This concept goes both ways guys... if you are attracted to cheap or shallow women, you have to want to live a lifestyle that thrives with them.]

Perhaps my notions are naive, but this is my thinking.

1. ... and PS-- I have always picked up my own tabs and things so I would not have to --O--W--E-- anything. [hint hint, wink wink, nudge nudge to the fellas who have been shallow enough... errrr I mean to ever be so foolish... as to give specifically with the derogatory notion of expecting to get]

2. I test men--and women--to determine their character; sometimes intentionally, sometimes less than logically, but more often by fortunate (and sometimes not so fortunate) happy accidents of fate.

3. Though eye candy is a plus in the world, being healthy (of mind, body, and soul) is far more important ultimately.

4. Personally, the only regrets in life I have are the things I have been unable to give; not what I have been unable to get.

5. I would do just about anything in the world for people I love... and the good friends and loves I have in this world would do the same for me.

I suppose values and personality create a person no matter how much looks influence access to opportunity. I am glad that when I need to I can still stop traffic... but at some point my brain and heart have to weigh in, too. :referee: If I am going to expect more from a man, I have to be more of a lady.

When you consciously choose to be extrordinary, only then can you become an "Urban Legend Girl"--a mythical creature unlike any other: brains, beauty/looks, heart, a decent sense of humor and with any luck at all a bit of $...

Bottom line--I might be pretty or hot or cute, "do-able", "Milf", WHATEVER AMBIGUOUS TERM but no matter how much time I spend on my looks I always want to be recognized as something so much more... and I want to be proud of my mate for the kind of person he is--not what he looks like.

Is that wrong?

~~K

[janitor]

Admittedly I got bored with reading this thread after it became a Brad-bashing but.......fair question! Where did the hostility become warranted??!?

It's fair and reasonably argued that an attractive woman (one who is wanted by many) gets a lot of attention.....much of it superficial....therefore she has to have strategies in place to weed out sincere and compatible from other.....whilst not a 'classic beauty' by any means attention from unknown (& known men) can be disconcerting....my preference is - make me earn it! Don't just look, sense and idolise - know me...understand what I can offer, think about it....piss off if you think I'm a chocolate box picture-projection of your imagination....it aint gonna work if you idealise....I'm human....know me, don't idealise me....I can't live up to it.....F*u if you think I disapppoint you because I don't fit your idealised image....do you realise how crushing it can be to continually disappoint because you're not an idealised it/thing?

It was a reasonable and genuine query guys!

someone once said that you can't fall in love unless you idealize the other person to some degree. i have found this to be true. now, i think this only works if you idealize qualities they actually have instead of one's you wish they had.

[Toonia]

How does ones internal perception of appearance affect their experience? What has been a source of fascination to me over the years is that a woman's perception of her appearance does not always reflect the truth of her appearance. Perception of self has more to do with ones emotional development which can include responding to attention from the outside world, but is more strongly affected by intimate relationships.

So what is life like for an attractive woman who feels unattractive vs. one whose perception is accurate? Or what is life like for a woman who feels more attractive than she really is?

The more beautiful you are, the more interest you attract from the outside world. The less attractive you feel, the more vulnerable you are. I would consider this the most dangerous combination which would make life difficult. The woman who feels she is a knockout, but really isn't is probably in the safest position of all because she will not attract that much real attention, but may imagine it and will expect to be treated as though endowed with the power and grace of loveliness. :wub: Then why is it socially uncomfortable for women to declare themselves more beautiful than they are? These are just some thoughts for a cold, rainy, achey day. Enjoy. :cheers:

[Proteus]

I had an interesting conversation with my brother's girlfriend last night about what it's like to be an attractive woman in today's society. We've all thought about it, but never really looked that deep. So here I go again with my excessive analysis.

Just imagine what it's like, when you suddenly start hitting puberty and get all this attention from guys. They start doing things for you without asking for things in return. They buy you things. You can get them to drive you places. Males from the age of 13-113 stare at you as you walk by. You can have sex with practically any single man you wish. You have all this power that was suddenly released inside you.

Who's to blame these women for abusing this power? After all, they didn't ask for it - we're giving it to them. Wouldn't you be more curious as to why a woman isn't abusing this power? It'd be like having a magic wand and keeping it in your closet.

You could also see how a woman like this would start to group all of these suck-up, manipulative guys into one big package: men. A man who does not kiss her ass and try to buy her affection would instantly stand out from the crowd. But sadly, attractive women far outnumber the amount of guys who really have their acts together, which is why so many gorgeous women feel so frustrated with their love life. Sure, she could settle for her really nice guy friend who would give anything just to be in her presence - she could have him at the snap of a finger. But his attention would be overbearing.

I suspect in the same way that guys feel sharp pain when being rejected, these girls feel pain when a guy disappoints them. He seemed so different at first, but then he somehow revealed that he's just another loser. Even worse is when the guy starts apologizing. Don't apologize, it's nothing you did - it's who you are. Apologizing only further reveals that you just don't get it. And worse yet is when he would say "I can change." The guy might as well be saying "I can mold myself to fit your every need" which definitely puts you in the manipulative suck-up category.

Because of this pain of disappointment, you could see how women like this would come up with instant tests to determine if a guy is truly authentic. Which explains in my mind all of the crazy weird stuff girls do. Pretending to be angry. Asking him to do something for her. Making him jealous. What she's trying to do is size him up. She's baiting him into kissing her ass. As soon as the lips touch the ass, the door is closed. Why should she waste another minute with this guy? There are literally not enough minutes in the day to date every man who is interested in her, so she's forced to use these "speed-techniques" to figure guys out.

In conclusion, life as an attractive woman doesn't seem like all it's cut out to be.

Am I the only one who finds your rumination humorous if not disturbing?

[Jennywocky]

I had an interesting conversation with my brother's girlfriend last night about what it's like to be an attractive woman in today's society. We've all thought about it, but never really looked that deep. So here I go again with my excessive analysis.

Just imagine what it's like, when you suddenly start hitting puberty and get all this attention from guys. They start doing things for you without asking for things in return. They buy you things. You can get them to drive you places. Males from the age of 13-113 stare at you as you walk by. You can have sex with practically any single man you wish. You have all this power that was suddenly released inside you.

Who's to blame these women for abusing this power? After all, they didn't ask for it - we're giving it to them. Wouldn't you be more curious as to why a woman isn't abusing this power? It'd be like having a magic wand and keeping it in your closet.

Maybe this idea isn't kosher, but one of the hardest lessons I think a woman already knows but hates to admit is that a man cannot be controlled (except by one thing... take a guess).

Women generally feel responsible to each other and to their relationships. They will choose to give... and expect to be given to in return. Women generally return the favor. (Study Carol Gilligan for more on the "relational web" in which women generally exert their influence and derive benefit from.)

Men are immune to this. Watch deteriorating relationships -- the woman is frustrated because the man won't respond or do what she wants. She has expectations for him that he seems to be oblivious to, and hurts her feelings without even realizing it most of the time. She tries everything to manipulate him, and he continues on his way -- or else resents her attempts to "control" him.

The one tool that women have that men respond quickly to and are willing to 'give' for is sex. Experientially, I see this all the time; and it plays out in our dramas.

(Note: No, I'm not diminishing people and saying sex is the only reason a man will love a woman. What I'm saying is that it's a foundational motivator for the "basic" man, and a mature man will bind himself to his relationships by choice and for many more mature reasons. Still, sex is a common and powerful bartering chip in a relationship.)

I can see a few different responses that females have when they hit puberty. Some are thrilled because they don't realize yet it's all about 'sex' and the man using her to get what HE wants; they take all the attention as affirmation and find themselves badly hurt when men use their bodies and move on.

Other women understand that they have something men want, and will leverage sex to suit her wishes. It's a source of power.

Other women are terrified by all the attention -- they ALSO understand the sexual force in men, but feel vulnerable because of it, and want to be valued because of other things. So they will do what they can to diminish their attractiveness, or remain in the background.

Women all respond differently to their maturing physical attractiveness. Personality and experiences/background impact how she chooses to deal with it.

One typical area of maturity for women is learning to accept the desire that men have for them, without exploiting it or running from it -- i.e., accepting their own sexuality.

One typical area of maturity for men is learning to accept the sex drive, without catering to it or hiding from it -- i.e., accepting their own sexuality.

Just ideas I'm throwing out on the fly... curious what you all think.

[Jennywocky]

Bottom line--I might be pretty or hot or cute, "do-able", "Milf", WHATEVER AMBIGUOUS TERM but no matter how much time I spend on my looks I always want to be recognized as something so much more... and I want to be proud of my mate for the kind of person he is--not what he looks like. Is that wrong?

Nope. Sounds to me like you've got it right on the money. :)

PS. You're not the only one on the "Approaching 40" bus. At least we'll have good conversation on the way down.

[TPol]

We watched a movie called "Dangerous Beauty" tonight. It made me think of this thread. It is about a courtesan named Veronica Franco. Putting myself in her shoes -- looking at her choices as my own had I lived in that era, I think I'd have chosen the library, too. ;) If this thread is of interest to you, and if you haven't seen the movie or read the book on which it is based, you might find the study of Ms. Franco intriguing.

[Kristiana]

As real as the challenges of being attractive are, I think that the challenges of being an unattractive woman in today's society are far more difficult.

[ghostkisser]

[QUOTE=Brad324;411527]it's not your fault she's offended by that. It was a compliment.[/QU

you act as you are trying so hard to understand women with your initial topic and then you say something like this? if you can't understand why she'd be offended, you are wasting your time "trying" to understand women. you will never get it at this rate... give up...

[caybo]

So they will do what they can to diminish their attractiveness, or remain in the background.

??? I find that hard to believe. its hard to see any woman purposefully trying to make themselves ugly!

[abathur]

Mmm, I don't know about trying to make themselves "ugly" but there are certain girls who refuse to wear makeup, or fix their hair a certain way, or wear certain clothing, or shave body hair. I'm sure this is among the reasons why, in at least some of these cases.

On some level it both gratifies and bothers me to be getting purely sexual attention from a girl. Not that I could claim to be stud enough that it happens left and right, but I *have* intentionally said things in the past and acted in a certain manner specifically to scare off people who were giving me more strictly sexual attention than I was comfortable with. I'm also in the process of doing so right now, to some extent. I haven't kicked it into high gear, though. Hoping I don't have to.

[ghostkisser]

if a woman is accostomed to getting a fair bit of attention for mainly her looks, i can see her wanting to take a hiatus from that to see what life is like without that type of attention. i know of a waitress who shaved her head because she was so tired of creeps bothering her all the time.... i went through a jockish phase where i wore no makeup, played a lot of sports and had my hair very short ... when you don't receive praise for a certain thing, then you don't come to expect attention for it and are thus not dependent on it... it can make you stronger when you don't need that type of approval/attention or feel the need to seek it out... leaves you with more energy and desire for other things... a lot of women become really distracted from their true interests and selves once they reach the age where their sexual attractiveness comes to the forefront... it can be easy to let it define you...when you don't get treated like an object of desire constantly, it might stimulate further development in some areas of one's personality.. or help one to have a clearer focus on some areas... for some women... i'm not saying the sexuality has to take over, but sometimes it might hinder the recognition and/or development of other qualities if you come to depend on it too much for your self worth....

[azharazmi]

I used to have a habit of staring at attractive girls.I'm not sure why, but I guess I was curious and was trying to study them; trying to understand was makes them beautiful and attractive. I really wanted to apologize to them for staring and making them uncomfortable. The curiosity with beauty led me to become a part-time photographer. While shooting I can stare at attractive female clients without making them uncomfortable.

[LuridLemur]

Creep!

At work I'm supposed to smile at everyone (what a fun job that is), and the people least likely to make eye contact are the obvious extreme introverts followed by stereotypically "attractive" women. And kids, but they're all shy or annoying so they don't count.

[shum]

i am not hot but i am some what attractive. i think some what is supposed to be one word. *somewhat. we could have discussion about spelling.

i just had the best conversation with dom guy. he said that he doesnt tell me i am pretty because he knows that isnt what i want to hear from him.

[toppyoushimonai]

I didn't read the whole thread just the first post and skimmed through the rest. Reading the first post made me feel inferior to attractive women and furthered my understanding of men who are driven to rape. Girls are over sensative and have twice as many emotions as your average heterosexual male. I think dating is fertalizer and I believe that you can only get to know a girl when they have no opportunity to avoid you, i.e. at work or school. Meeting girls on the bus is trashy and most of the time a guy will be successfull getting a fake number from a girl. I think girls would rather be left alone on the bus and thus why they all seem to have mp3 players. Since I work in an all male environment I really have no way of meeting women but I don't really care right now because there are things more enjoyable than being tested by women and being depressed all the time. I just do things my way and if a slutty girl experimenting with her sexuality happens to come my way then it was all worth the wait. This post is rather long so I'll end here and continue reading this thread as I wait for people to reply.

[Brad324]

don't be bitter man

[toppyoushimonai]

I so was not being bitter.

[ptide]

As real as the challenges of being attractive are, I think that the challenges of being an unattractive woman in today's society are far more difficult.

very good point there.

But yeah I do agree with Brad on the power attractive girls have.. they get lots of attention, good and bad. My older sister would be a good example.
She's gotten addicted to the attention she gets from guys, she loves to have lots of guys tailing her, she whinges about the losers and weirdos, but of the good looking guys she chooses the shallow ones.

She likes to be the centre of the universe, and only feels satisfied if her current boy is talking about her 24/7. It's sad but I think her attractiveness has caused her to become selfish and shallow. She seems to attract the guys that are sly enough to recognise her narcissism and compliment her excessively. Later when her relationships break down, once the boy has gotten what he really wants and the endless attention dries up, she comes crying to us saying all men are bastards, etc.

So as harsh as this is to say, particularly when my sister is included. The girls who abuse their attractive powers tend to reap the shit they sow.

Those attractive girls that prefer not to get as much attention can simply decide to not wear make-up and dress in less fancy clothes. They'll be able to avoid the bull-shit attention and see past the losers to the genuine guys. Then she can dress up all she likes for the guy she wants and she'll probably get him.


For the unattractive girls there are always unattractive guys out there. Most people pair off with others who have similar good looks. It's a depressing dynamic, but it makes sense and works.

[toppyoushimonai]

ptide, awesome! And you have front row seats to that kind of show, if you can get back to this thread with some updates and more points about girls attractiveness becoming their downfall I enjoy reading it.

Girls dress up and pay sttention to their looks in great detail, that's the bait, guys are lured in buy it so immediadtely aren't we shallow because we were only interested in looks at first. If attractive girls could somehow hide it, first of all guys wouldn't have to put on the show of 'who's the dominant male amongst hurd' and girls would be able to catch us in a natural state. When horny guys flock towards the attractive group of girls (they're all friends for some reason) what do girls expect? they were attracted to their looks and the faccade of all the fertalizer is no help hiding the shallowness. Guys should expect to be toyed with by attractive girls since it's obvious they only care about looks.

[ptide]

ptide, awesome! And you have front row seats to that kind of show, if you can get back to this thread with some updates and more points about girls attractiveness becoming their downfall I enjoy reading it.

Girls dress up and pay sttention to their looks in great detail, that's the bait, guys are lured in buy it so immediadtely aren't we shallow because we were only interested in looks at first. If attractive girls could somehow hide it, first of all guys wouldn't have to put on the show of 'who's the dominant male amongst hurd' and girls would be able to catch us in a natural state. When horny guys flock towards the attractive group of girls (they're all friends for some reason) what do girls expect? they were attracted to their looks and the faccade of all the fertalizer is no help hiding the shallowness. Guys should expect to be toyed with by attractive girls since it's obvious they only care about looks.

I was about to ask "front seats???", but I get what you mean now. First hand, behind the scenes info on the ups and downs of life for an attractive girl (ie. my sister). Something like that right?

Anyway probably important to clarify what sort of attractive girl we are all talking about. I'm referring mainly to the ones that dress up to be sexy so as to lure guys in and get a power trip from their attentions. There are of course attractive girls out there who are not interested in playing games and can be quite genuine themselves. But we are talking about the girls who have gone over to the dark side of the force.

There are even some barkers on the dark side of the force, not so attractive girls that will nevertheless load on lots of make-up and wear revealing clothes to get plenty of sexual attention.

I personally have nothing against attractive girls and if I were to fall in love, I'd definately have to find the girl attractive.

But those girls that dress up sexy and play games, I get turned off by them.



However back to what you were saying Toppyoushimonai, the sad thing for these attractive girls that have been seduced by the dark side of their force is that invariably they all want to find meaningful love in the end. But they continue to play these stupid games and they keep on choosing losers for lovers over and over. But unless they learn and change their behaviour the pattern will repeat over and over.

The challenge for us guys, is to not fall for these girls. They will chew us up and spit us out. They will keep us on the clothes line or in the washing machine and rarely or never wear us. The only guys that are ever successful are as shallow as they are.

Just let your eyes skip over these girls and look for the rest. The ones that want to be treated as humans first and sex objects second.

[toppyoushimonai]

ptide; you seem to understand this stuff exceedingly well, maybe because it's a topic at the dinner table... The sex side of the force is now and always will be playable for both sexes, let me explain. I am an average male (height, weight, tone etc) as average as they get. As for personality well I have several... despite this stuff I can still play the sex game: money! Girls complain, complain, complain, right? about not being listened to the 2nd and 5th time they repeat something and about us treating them like objects. What is they treat us as? A science experiment! so with money even an ugly guy can happily treat a sexy girls as a sex object, the sex side is to everyones advantage as advantages recieved.

[s0978]

=))

[ptide]

Well things are the way they are for a reason. There are guys who like seeing girls as sex objects, and some girls are making themselves look just that.

The conflict here is that these people are unhappy and they extend the issue by making others outside the game feel dissatisfied also.

Yet the problem with these exciting and meaningless relationships is that after a while of exciting we look for meaning, when we can't find it we sabotage the relationship so that we can move on.

If you look for and find meaning first, then you know that your exciting will have fuel to last indefinately.

Meaning is not just about sex, it's about mutual care, trust and having enough in common to be good friends.

Without that basis, the relationship dies when the sex becomes boring enough for you to realise that you don't even like the other person that much.

My rule is that if I don't think we could be best friends, then don't even bother.

[Madrigal]

I didn't read the whole thread just the first post and skimmed through the rest. Reading the first post made me feel inferior to attractive women and furthered my understanding of men who are driven to rape. Girls are over sensative and have twice as many emotions as your average heterosexual male. I think dating is fertalizer and I believe that you can only get to know a girl when they have no opportunity to avoid you, i.e. at work or school. Meeting girls on the bus is trashy and most of the time a guy will be successfull getting a fake number from a girl. I think girls would rather be left alone on the bus and thus why they all seem to have mp3 players. Since I work in an all male environment I really have no way of meeting women but I don't really care right now because there are things more enjoyable than being tested by women and being depressed all the time. I just do things my way and if a slutty girl experimenting with her sexuality happens to come my way then it was all worth the wait. This post is rather long so I'll end here and continue reading this thread as I wait for people to reply.

I don't understand. You sound like a really nice guy. What's stopping you from going out there and getting yourself some fertilizer? Surely if anyone deserves to be showered in fresh cow dung, it is you?! :confused:

[amazingkae]

??? I find that hard to believe. its hard to see any woman purposefully trying to make themselves ugly!

Don't find it so hard to believe someone would choose to hide their looks. I won't say "ugly" is or ever has been a goal--because ugly comes from internal attitude--but I definitely found that I had to go out of my way all through college to dress down, avoid makeup, not look "girlie" or any of the things I normally do to make myself comfortable or pretty when I go out. Here's the story... and the intent behind the actions were purposefully measured for the benefit of self and others simultaneously.

Truly good looking people make other people uncomfortable. They make them nervous, or worse, they inspire predatory behaviors. I am good looking; I am not photogenic, but I am more than ordinary. When I am dressed up or have my hair and make up done, people stare. MOST people, men and women alike (unless they are super confident) just don't speak with me. I get lots of eye contact and smiles, following the gawking looks and the jaw drops but if they talk it is to tell me about what I look like--no intellectual engagement occurs. It has been this way my whole life.

When I moved to college and declared my first major in a primarily male dominated field, I soon found out that the only way to get people to talk with me openly or to expect them to listen to me with any sort of respect for what I was saying was if I was dressed in baggy, non-descript clothes, came to class with either wet hair or my hair back in a pony tail, and that if I was presenting a SERIOUS argument I wear my GLASSES. Honest to god, I would go to school and talk with people everyday for hours--and they were friendly and raved about how smart I was... but if they saw me out or dressed up they either did not recognize me or if they did and tried to speak it was awkward as ass and they spent the whole time stuttering. Therefore, when in Rome, I did as the Romans; I dressed the part of the IQ crowd.

My superhero disguise for the most part was and still is jeans that are loose and large sweaters, t-shirts, jackets, or tops. My profession requires simplistic professional attire when working with students, and my partners profession require I be dressed regularly to the nines. Both guises have their benefits. I love to dress up, but I also like to dress down so that I am able to have the opportunity to talk to everybody. When at a Roman Gala, the more attractive I look is directly proportional to respect for me and my partner; when working with the commons, such a site detracts from my work.

For women who are incredibly pretty and can't avoid the way they look, it must be an incredible gift and incredibly frustrating equally. If they have a brain or a heart as well as a booty, they are going to feel a painful isolation from the rest of the natural world. If you look around any room full of people, you quickly find out how few aesthetically balanced and artistically speaking "perfect" people there really are in the world. There seems to be a proportional division of body features: truly unattractive (lower 10%), the unappealing without personality group (the dreadful bitter personality with little generalized aesthetic appeal or physical appeal reduced from personality traits 20%), the moderates (40% have some appealing physical features and become attractive through personality, sense of humor, kindness, or intellectual success), the above average (intellectually or physically superior "good genetics" blends 29 %), and the Uber set (perfectly formed biologically typically represented by stars and models 1%).

Because physical beauty is rare, we tend to set it apart as a trait to be valued. In doing so, the more attractive a person is physically, we set the persona or culpable personality aside and render the judgement of it secondarily. It is my theory that by doing so, society devalues the beautiful one while simultaneously aspiring to emulate their appearance in physical form. It is a bitter irony that the most lovely in society tend to become the most arrogant, egotistical, maniacal, and vacuous as a result of stimuli they cannot control (a--their looks and b--how humans react to them based on subconscious, innate biological propensities). The Uber set, then, which logically should be dominant and superior, falls victim to the powerful assault of the many and common man, and the unfortunate balance of human nature is formed.

We all aspire in one way or another to make ourselves more attractive as a sign of respect for self and respect for others. If I dressed down, I was still clean, in clean clothes, wore perfume, and kept on a bit of basic token sentimental jewelry so that I felt better about me; though I did not aspire to set myself physically above the crowd in the context of an intellectual environment, in order to aspire academically I had to camouflage that I fit biologically into the above average set. As a female in a male dominated world, I am taken less seriously. As a kind person in a sea of flame, I am perceived as weak--or at the very least treading water in the shallows. As an attractive person, it is difficult to be measured solely for my intellect and character. As a "not UBER", I fail persistently to see myself as ever having been as attractive as most people have said I am (because of my idealization of perfection in aesthetic appeal and my perception of my own inadequacies).

As an adult, I have been fortunate enough to embrace the theory that no matter who you are or what one looks like, there will always be someone better looking or more unfortunate looking. Just as there are always going to be stronger and weaker, richer and poorer, funnier or sadder, there will always be prettier--and if not, then at any given moment in time there will be someone better dressed, more intelligent, kinder, more sincere, more savvy, whatever "y" or "ly" you chose to give to any given combination of adjectives or adverbs that describe hierarchical judgements. In childhood, this hurt. In adulthood, I believe one must come to a place of a passive, non-reactive observance of this phenomenon in order to focus on what really should matter; the development of unique and confident person hood.

It may be true that humans do odd things--like stare or conversely be the person feeling completely and totally insecure that people are staring because the object is sure that with each stare that people are not in fact admiring but instead sizing up and tearing apart the features for implicit flaws which minor or major can be psychologically devastating to the individual born with them. However, without a "C'est la vie" attitude, no one can truly move forward to measure the true content of character and soul. It is ultimately what is on the inside that counts, and no amount or lack of external beauty can change that fact. We can simply try to understand that it is a factor to be considered as it relates to human compulsion, accept it, and move on.

We all have our good days and bad, no matter what we look like on the outside--mainly because of how we feel on the inside. We all have less than favorite clothes, and dread shopping in bathing suit season. Even if we have perfect features or perfect bodies, there are unflattering angles; a bad outfit looks bad on anybody, and a good outfit on the wrong body type looks atrocious. We all get chicken pox, we all catch colds, and most of us have had a hangover or the flu. We have all cried, been weak, behaved badly, blurted out the wrong thing at the wrong time, have been misunderstood, have done something selfish, petty, or mean and have demonstrated hubris. We have had pimples, sunburns, food stuck in our teeth, and have lost at the most inconvenient of times a button or two. If you want to understand women, ask them--and don't argue with or devalue what they tell you. If you want to understand men, watch a game of football. The sociological and anthropological study of the ritual will enlighten you--even if the male you are trying to understand is not a jock. Sometimes we all have to be the cheerleaders, or the fans. We are all coaches and players. We all, based on circumstance or job description, don different uniforms depending on who we are and what we primarily need to do.

No one wants to be ugly, per say. What everyone does want is to be recognized and able to function easily in society without complication. For all the hype, it is nice to have down time alone when no one is staring at you. It is during these times that the only person doing the evaluation of beauty is the beauty underneath. Baseball caps and big sunglasses with a comfortable pair of sweats and flat shoes do wonders for this movement. Seen any walking around the grocery store, the mall, the city streets, or on the subways and airplanes lately?

[ajblaise]

Don't find it so hard to believe someone would choose to hide their looks...

Good post..or essay. I agree with the concepts you laid out, even though it's hard for a guy to relate to much of what you said.

[BerberElla]

*Really good post*

That was a good post amazingkae, I know exactly where your coming from, and I know (I am one of them) women who dress down to avoid unwanted attention or to be taken seriously.

I came from a world where that was expected anyway, the prettier you are the more of your face you had to cover up.

Even now I wear hats pulled down low, baggy unattractive clothes on a day to day basis.

Of course like many other women, the few times I choose to dress up is because I don't mind the attention on that particular day.

[ajblaise]

That was a good post amazingkae, I know exactly where your coming from, and I know (I am one of them) women who dress down to avoid unwanted attention or to be taken seriously.

To me, that just makes them more attractive.

[BerberElla]

To me, that just makes them more attractive.

Thank goodness that it only has that effect on the more intelligent men, otherwise we would never get any peace.:D

[amazingkae]

Thank goodness that it only has that effect on the more intelligent men, otherwise we would never get any peace.:D

amazingkae does the banana dance :banana:

Thanks for listening and the complimentary agreement from the girl court.

God bless intelligent men... and those who find us sexy when we are at our worst. They are the ones who truly are worthy of our dress up trophy appeal.

Cheers to all! :cheers:

[Ferrus]

No one wants to be ugly, per say.
I have known of some who are psychologically damaged because of familial who do, perhaps however it elucidates your point.

[amazingkae]

Just a word to the wise, the heart of male bonding is giving and receiving help to someone. It mimics the father son/relationship. One guy takes on the paternal role and instructs the other guy about how to do something. Most guys are going to take you receiving help as bonding in someway, most likely romantically.

This is a generalization, but I think it's very true.

Female bonding, as far as I'm concerned, seems to mimic mother/daughter relationships, with one taking on the maternal role of sympathetic listener.

In my experience guys and girls get this majorly wrong. When a guy ask a female for help/instruction, that's a big thing and girls typically miss it completely, and likewise, when a girl opens up about something that's bothering her, guys tend not to do a good job of picking up on how big of thing that is.


right on

intention, need and perception are so often set askew

[amazingkae]

Both genders can vary greatly. One could make the argument that the maternal instinct does more to unite the female gender. But, even with that I know women who care almost nothing for their children.

Some very good point have been made here regarding how "beautiful" is defined. Is it a genetically proportioned woman, or a highly commercialized appearance? Extreme makeover should help make this distinction, right? There is also some difference between an aesthetically beautiful woman and a socially powerful woman. The socially powerful woman will always be in more demand sexually because the social rewards are greater for the man. Which do you think a shallow man would prefer: an established model with fame and money, or a quiet, somewhat socially backwards girl living in poverty who possesses astoundingly graceful features? Is it the cheerleader or the silent wallflower for most? Beauty is rarely an end in itself for most people. For many (fewer INTP's perhaps) the primary desire is social attention, power, and the financial means to fill ones desires. Women who can assist with these goals are most sought after.

Overall I agree, but I think that personality type will them come into play, making the decision about attraction to the model or the mega-star. [ I have met quite a few who prefer the former and an entirely other set who prefer the later based on their own senses of machismo and bravado, essentially].

For now however, I want to simply say that Toonia writes and thinks with an elegant grace--and that her beauty shows. Thank you for representing the calm and lovely feminine so graciously. You are an example of goodness, beauty, and integrity combined.

COOL.

[amazingkae]

Good post..or essay. I agree with the concepts you laid out, even though it's hard for a guy to relate to much of what you said.

But you are demonstrating proof of listening... and thinking... and expressing emotion all in this one statement.

You get an A+.

:smooch:

[amazingkae]

I have known of some who are psychologically damaged because of familial who do, perhaps however it elucidates your point.

Society crushes that which it both envies and desires. In the cases you are describing, you are witnessing the ramifications of the abuse of aesthetic ideals by the masses. The more personal and intimate the attacks, the greater the trajedy.

I-pods only keep out so much... and how much do you want to bet that someone will attack me for daring to be so bold as to say anything positive about beauty?

[AMDG]

But sadly, attractive women far outnumber the amount of guys who really have their acts together, which is why so many gorgeous women feel so frustrated with their love life. Sure, she could settle for her really nice guy friend who would give anything just to be in her presence - she could have him at the snap of a finger. But his attention would be overbearing.


Actually, most of the attractive people of both sexes that I've met, who've had trouble with their love lives, though they said it was for the reason you give there, to my perception it seemed to be really because they were snooty fucks who wouldn't give anyone a chance who wasn't as attractive as they were...

[ajblaise]

But you are demonstrating proof of listening... and thinking... and expressing emotion all in this one statement.

You get an A+.

:smooch:

Thanks teacher

[TheFallandRiseOf]

Truly good looking people make other people uncomfortable. They make them nervous, or worse, they inspire predatory behaviors. I am good looking; I am not photogenic, but I am more than ordinary. When I am dressed up or have my hair and make up done, people stare. MOST people, men and women alike (unless they are super confident) just don't speak with me. I get lots of eye contact and smiles, following the gawking looks and the jaw drops but if they talk it is to tell me about what I look like--no intellectual engagement occurs. It has been this way my whole life.

When I moved to college and declared my first major in a primarily male dominated field, I soon found out that the only way to get people to talk with me openly or to expect them to listen to me with any sort of respect for what I was saying was if I was dressed in baggy, non-descript clothes, came to class with either wet hair or my hair back in a pony tail, and that if I was presenting a SERIOUS argument I wear my GLASSES. Honest to god, I would go to school and talk with people everyday for hours--and they were friendly and raved about how smart I was... but if they saw me out or dressed up they either did not recognize me or if they did and tried to speak it was awkward as ass and they spent the whole time stuttering. Therefore, when in Rome, I did as the Romans; I dressed the part of the IQ crowd.

My superhero disguise for the most part was and still is jeans that are loose and large sweaters, t-shirts, jackets, or tops. My profession requires simplistic professional attire when working with students, and my partners profession require I be dressed regularly to the nines. Both guises have their benefits. I love to dress up, but I also like to dress down so that I am able to have the opportunity to talk to everybody. When at a Roman Gala, the more attractive I look is directly proportional to respect for me and my partner; when working with the commons, such a site detracts from my work.

Just another opinion here...

Paragraph 2 and 3 seem more about common sense and dressing for the job/situation than about attractiveness. This applies to EVERYBODY, not just those blessed with visual genetics.

You sound a little paranoid to me - not an insult, just an observation. I suppose I just don't care so much about other people's judgements of me. If I want to look good, then I'm capable of it. I might not be as drop-dead gorgeous as some, but I do get stared at and approached a lot. Nevertheless - I do what I want to do. I won't compromise life for the sake of a stranger's judgement, but I will exercise common sense.

As far as being judged for appearances goes, I don't do it and therefore I don't expect others to. However, If I am judged as such that's their problem, not mine. I know who I am. Time, or just talking to me, will fast unravel misconceptions. And as for intellectual engagement - I don't wait for someone else to initiate it.

'Beautiful' people do not make me feel uncomfortable. I am wondering if this is a projected belief - personal discomfort or self-consciousness applied to the viewer, or, their recognition of the subject's self-consciousness makes them in turn feel uncomfortable? Inappropriate behaviour is what makes me feel uncomfortable in a social situation - and it has to be extreme even so.

I do empathise a little with the above but I also feel estranged from it - and I'm glad that I am.

Just a few thoughts. :)

[Jennywocky]

Don't find it so hard to believe someone would choose to hide their looks. I won't say "ugly" is or ever has been a goal--because ugly comes from internal attitude--but I definitely found that I had to go out of my way all through college to dress down, avoid makeup, not look "girlie" or any of the things I normally do to make myself comfortable or pretty when I go out. Here's the story... and the intent behind the actions were purposefully measured for the benefit of self and others simultaneously.

It's a shame that that's the way it seems to be in the world. I've never really understood why a woman being physically attractive somehow equates to people having to take her less seriously.

(Of course, having vacuous women like Jessica Simpson running around really doesn't help the case much...)

I can also imagine that, if you are good-looking, it takes more effort to know if men are interested in you because of your looks (and thus sex sex sex) or because they genuinely like you. So dressing down and trying hard to look average would help weed out the "horndog" types from those men who actually are interested in you as a human being.

Sahara: So, uh, decided to "dress up" your avatar a little bit just to commemorate this thread? :)

[TheFallandRiseOf]

I can also imagine that, if you are good-looking, it takes more effort to know if men are interested in you because of your looks (and thus sex sex sex) or because they genuinely like you. So dressing down and trying hard to look average would help weed out the "horndog" types from those men who actually are interested in you as a human being.

I'd prefer a man who is interested in both. Jesus - girls have sex drives too! I am also capable off weeding out the gems from the dregs without resorting to wearing a sack and horn-rims (although, let's face it, there's a certain charm to the old sack and horn-rims garb :)). I don't know - I might be an introvert but the whole timid thing just isn't me. If I like someone I won't waste time in letting them know (circumstances provided). Attraction must be a mutual thing - otherwise it's masochistic.

[Jennywocky]

I'd prefer a man who is interested in both. Jesus - girls have sex drives too! I am also capable off weeding out the gems from the dregs without resorting to wearing a sack and horn-rims (although, let's face it, there's a certain charm to the old sack and horn-rims garb :)). I don't know - I might be an introvert but the whole timid thing just isn't me. If I like someone I won't waste time in letting them know (circumstances provided). Attraction must be a mutual thing - otherwise it's masochistic.


Well, I know... I didn't mean to insinuate otherwise. I was just describing one angle on things, so I didn't bother to describe any of the other angles at the time.

There just seems to be certain problems that women face in the world, and other specific problems that men will face, just because of their gender; but we are all human beings and share the same basic needs.

Glad you feel comfortable enough with yourself to assert your desires, when you know what you want. That's something that I have gotten better at over the years, but still have to work at...

[TheFallandRiseOf]

There just seems to be certain problems that women face in the world, and other specific problems that men will face, just because of their gender; but we are all human beings and share the same basic needs.

Too true. Thank goodness for basic needs. ;)

[Hustler]

PLACE-HOLDER FOR CLASSIC STATUS

[digesthisickness]

oh great. i was drunk when i posted in this one. drunk enough not to want to read what i said.

oh, what the hell... woohoo!

[targo]

um but what if she didn't know she was/is an attrative woman? What if she lived her life watching the world go by and thinking that everything was wrong with her. Eventhough there were men/boys following her and doing all for her yet she never once knew why, and just continued being her sweet normal self?


What then??

[headfonez]

The thing I love the most is when an attractive woman suddenly becomes unattractive (because of age, or change in looks). Like a fad that goes out of style.

[targo]

The thing I love the most is when an attractive woman suddenly becomes unattractive (because of age, or change in looks). Like a fad that goes out of style.


is it bad that your comment appeals to me as well =))

[Jennywocky]

The thing I love the most is when an attractive woman suddenly becomes unattractive (because of age, or change in looks). Like a fad that goes out of style.

Sorta like Britney Britney's star looks to [hopefully] finally be setting?

[barbiebling]

Perhaps it is my INTP/Taurus/Monkey aspects combined, but I could never be like the shallow girls first described, but I know a lot of my friends who do and don't undertsand why I am not the same. I am fiercly stuborn and independant to a fault and I have only let a guy buy me a drink once in my life and that was because I liked him. My straight up attitude and independance means guys aren't throwing stuff my way, nor would I let them. So my own attitude is giving me the shaft towards happiness, being tall and attractive does not help.....man being INTP blows sometimes....actually I should not use that excuse. I am my own worst enemy, that is more like it.

[Economica]

What she's trying to do is size him up. She's baiting him into kissing her ass. As soon as the lips touch the ass, the door is closed. Why should she waste another minute with this guy? There are literally not enough minutes in the day to date every man who is interested in her, so she's forced to use these "speed-techniques" to figure guys out.

I completely agree with your analysis, Brad. And you may not have thought about it, but it extends to include all women, not just the beautiful ones. The beautiful ones get away with much more, but *all* women test their man to see how strong he is and how much backbone he has. The more a woman can manipulate a man, the less interested she is. Law of nature, really. What determines market value? She has to look good - he has to be challenging and strong(er than her).

[AcidGoethe]

I completely agree with your analysis, Brad. And you may not have thought about it, but it extends to include all women, not just the beautiful ones. The beautiful ones get away with much more, but *all* women test their man to see how strong he is and how much backbone he has. The more a woman can manipulate a man, the less interested she is. Law of nature, really. What determines market value? She has to look good - he has to be challenging and strong(er than her).

Completely agree with that - this is why ENTJ's are very popular - they don't put up with any BS.

[InvisaLife]

What happened to this thread? Brad has a very valid point and it's something that nearly every human being employs: shortcuts, namely heuristics.

Look it up in an Intro to Psychology book or search "Representativeness Heuristic" and "Availability Heuristic". We are wired to take shortcuts as human beings anchored in finite time. That's basically the point. Heuristics. Heuristics... Heuristics...

I'm not gonna argue anything else because I think that's it. That's the point.

Nice thread, Brad, I loved your argument! You're also a divine being when it comes to patience. I respect you for your politeness.:theclap:

And INTrePid, you are definitely living in a house of cards...

[Autumn]

What happened to this thread?

Great thread, just found it. (Only read the first 10 pages yet.)
I made a similar point (http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?p=599888#post599888) not long ago.
But what I'm now really curious about is: what happened between Intrepid and Brad that so pissed off both of them? :popcorn:

[s]

This thread could have been more interesting, but it felt short just as my reply will.

Why would anyone assume an attractive woman manipulates or even thinks of herself as attractive? What if she was an ugly duckling late bloomer? What if she sees it as a blessed burden that keeps people at arms length, because people do not take her seriously?

An attractive woman may as well use her tool to her advantage, just as she should her intelligence or other talents. Anyone who relies solely on their looks will be sorely schooled in a life lesson eventually.

[shum]

The more a woman can manipulate a man, the less interested she is.

i know a female dom that would disagree with you on this.

[cut the grass]

everyone has their own set of problems. being attractive has an impact on one's life just as intelligence does. i don't think attractive women are prone to manipulation, nor are they accustomed to making men jump through hoops to win their affection. i just think it depends on the person. as mentioned before, a lot of "beautiful" women were ugly ducklings, so perhaps we should narrow the scope. also, a lot of beautiful women don't use their looks as their primary source of power... my best friend uses her intelligence and zest for life to effortlessly attract people to her and wouldn't dream of bending them to her will. it's just very hard to have a discussion on "attractive women"

[Economica]

i know a female dom that would disagree with you on this.

Most women disagree with me on this. :devil:

[Hermione]

What do I think, fortunato? I think you are amazing. Very simple, succinct, to the point , on target. And to answer a previous little comment someone made about why a womaan wouldn't use her attractiveness, personality, humor, wit, intelligence to manipulate men or to get her way....

Because I happen to have other things to do !!! I'll get to you when I get around to it, okay?

[airjaw]

I had an interesting conversation with my brother's girlfriend last night about what it's like to be an attractive woman in today's society. We've all thought about it, but never really looked that deep. So here I go again with my excessive analysis.

Just imagine what it's like, when you suddenly start hitting puberty and get all this attention from guys. They start doing things for you without asking for things in return. They buy you things. You can get them to drive you places. Males from the age of 13-113 stare at you as you walk by. You can have sex with practically any single man you wish. You have all this power that was suddenly released inside you.

Who's to blame these women for abusing this power? After all, they didn't ask for it - we're giving it to them. Wouldn't you be more curious as to why a woman isn't abusing this power? It'd be like having a magic wand and keeping it in your closet.

You could also see how a woman like this would start to group all of these suck-up, manipulative guys into one big package: men. A man who does not kiss her ass and try to buy her affection would instantly stand out from the crowd. But sadly, attractive women far outnumber the amount of guys who really have their acts together, which is why so many gorgeous women feel so frustrated with their love life. Sure, she could settle for her really nice guy friend who would give anything just to be in her presence - she could have him at the snap of a finger. But his attention would be overbearing.

I suspect in the same way that guys feel sharp pain when being rejected, these girls feel pain when a guy disappoints them. He seemed so different at first, but then he somehow revealed that he's just another loser. Even worse is when the guy starts apologizing. Don't apologize, it's nothing you did - it's who you are. Apologizing only further reveals that you just don't get it. And worse yet is when he would say "I can change." The guy might as well be saying "I can mold myself to fit your every need" which definitely puts you in the manipulative suck-up category.

Because of this pain of disappointment, you could see how women like this would come up with instant tests to determine if a guy is truly authentic. Which explains in my mind all of the crazy weird stuff girls do. Pretending to be angry. Asking him to do something for her. Making him jealous. What she's trying to do is size him up. She's baiting him into kissing her ass. As soon as the lips touch the ass, the door is closed. Why should she waste another minute with this guy? There are literally not enough minutes in the day to date every man who is interested in her, so she's forced to use these "speed-techniques" to figure guys out.

In conclusion, life as an attractive woman doesn't seem like all it's cut out to be.

this reeks of seduction/PUA material.

[Notsweetynice]

When I was getting a haircut today, I overheard two attractive hair stylists talking to eachother. The first girl was saying something about a guy creeping her out because he still calls, and she has to pretend she's busy. And the second girl says that when she gets asked out she says yes, then gives out a phone number - a fake one.

Can't blame the girls, but I can't help but feel bad for the guys they're talking about. I think the sex-imization of our culture has forced women to be on guard at all times.

Women brag. I bet the second one felt like she had to say something to compete with the first.

[thinks2much]

Several years ago I worked with an incredibly attractive young woman ... flawless, perfectly formed face, beautiful eyes, great body. Whenever we'd go into a common area -- for coffee or lunch -- people would literally turn their heads to stare at her.

It was interesting at first, but got pretty old pretty quickly. I know she enjoyed the attention, but I felt as if I were in the presence of someone with a deformity ... the kind where people can't restrain themselves from looking.

Kind of strange, actually ...

[rek]

this reeks of seduction/PUA material.

Yes, but that material is all based on facts (such as what the OP was stating) being true. I'm not saying you should lie or manipulate people, but I do agree with just about everything he said. Everything I've experienced in my life supports the same conclusions, both my experiences liking women and having them like or not like me back and even my experiences with them liking me.

Not that I'm by any means a hot supermodel or have girls begging to be with me but there have been a few times when a girl liked me too much that it was unattractive. I don't think it's a girl only thing, it's just that beautiful girls are a big noticeable group which it affects often.

It can go the same way for really rich men, or rock stars. It's kind of like every really beautiful woman is a small time rock star; they can't have anything they want but they know they can have some and it's only natural to want the most you can have.

[Ceilinh]

This is a very interesting thread- definitely some food for thought.


The truth is, when a guy is your friend, most likely, unless he's gay, he had romantic attraction to you in the first place. Men and women aren't usually just friends..somewhere along the line someone settled for friendship when the other declined romantic involvement. You don't need to feel guilty about wanting a platonic relationship, just make it clear. If the guy feels you are worth it, he will settle for the relationship--I think it works the other way around as well, maybe the guys have an opinion on that. I know the best guy friends---only guys friends I have (and this includes my former husband) are guys that originally had romantic intentions and it just wasn't happening. The ones worth the friendship will be your friend and get over not having you as a girlfriend.

How true is this? I've got a lot of guy friends, but I never particularly noticed any of them showing a romantic interest in me. Am I missing out on signals, or do they really just want to be friends with me? (And if there are signals, what would they look like?)

[squirrel]

How true is this? I've got a lot of guy friends, but I never particularly noticed any of them showing a romantic interest in me. Am I missing out on signals, or do they really just want to be friends with me? (And if there are signals, what would they look like?)

To be honest, I generally only initiate friendships with girls if there's some romantic aspect (however slight). But if a girl I'm not particularly romantically interested in wants to be friends I won't try to avoid it. In particular even if my romantic hopes are dashed I'll try to stay friends (presuming we get along well).

But the same holds true for my friendships with guys too... with the consequence that, since I'm not romantically interested in guys, I have much fewer guy friends than girl friends (note the space there, it's important).

So for me it boils down to only bothering to put in the effort to initiate any friendship if there's a chance of romance. Maybe it's laziness or selfishness but personally I think it's INTPness... people are HARD. :(

[epsilon72]

To be honest, I generally only initiate friendships with girls if there's some romantic aspect (however slight). But if a girl I'm not particularly romantically interested in wants to be friends I won't try to avoid it. In particular even if my romantic hopes are dashed I'll try to stay friends (presuming we get along well).

But the same holds true for my friendships with guys too... with the consequence that, since I'm not romantically interested in guys, I have much fewer guy friends than girl friends (note the space there, it's important).

So for me it boils down to only bothering to put in the effort to initiate any friendship if there's a chance of romance. Maybe it's laziness or selfishness but personally I think it's INTPness... people are HARD. :(
^ 100% Ditto

[starla]

So basically, if I find myself becoming friends with a guy without making any of the effort, it's because he's interested in more? Does he have to be interested in more, or could he just find me pleasant and/or attractive? This would blow my married-men-are-safe theory to pieces.

[squirrel]

So basically, if I find myself becoming friends with a guy without making any of the effort, it's because he's interested in more? Does he have to be interested in more, or could he just find me pleasant and/or attractive? This would blow my married-men-are-safe theory to pieces.

I would think everything changes with (most) married men. At least, when I had a girlfriend, I found it easier to be friend-ish with girls in whom I had no romantic interest. Probably that's because having a girlfriend boosted my social confidence and helped me make friends more easily.

[C.J.Woolf]

So basically, if I find myself becoming friends with a guy without making any of the effort, it's because he's interested in more? Does he have to be interested in more, or could he just find me pleasant and/or attractive? This would blow my married-men-are-safe theory to pieces.
Perhaps he would be interested in more if he wasn't already attached. I confess I've felt that way about some women. :whistle:

[chads]

For me, there's always a "what if" floating out there. That doesn't mean I would act on it, but it's there. It really sucks, too, because I really like being friends with women, but the "what if" makes me feel like I shouldn't if either of us is involved.

[Dom]

So basically, if I find myself becoming friends with a guy without making any of the effort, it's because he's interested in more? Does he have to be interested in more, or could he just find me pleasant and/or attractive? This would blow my married-men-are-safe theory to pieces.

married men are not safe lol....

could be any of those, but unless you want to do anythign yourself, it really doesn't matter does it?

[TONE381]

This looks like a David DeAngelo: Double Your Dating ad.

[songbird36]

So basically, if I find myself becoming friends with a guy without making any of the effort, it's because he's interested in more? Does he have to be interested in more, or could he just find me pleasant and/or attractive? This would blow my married-men-are-safe theory to pieces.

Me too. Most of my friends irl are guys.

[eaglewing]

Just imagine what it's like, when you suddenly start hitting puberty and get all this attention from guys. They start doing things for you without asking for things in return. They buy you things. You can get them to drive you places. Males from the age of 13-113 stare at you as you walk by. You can have sex with practically any single man you wish. You have all this power that was suddenly released inside you.


Same with attractive men and rich men.

[s0978]

So basically, if I find myself becoming friends with a guy without making any of the effort, it's because he's interested in more? Does he have to be interested in more, or could he just find me pleasant and/or attractive? This would blow my married-men-are-safe theory to pieces.

I remember the first time a married pal declared his lo-o-ove for me. It was unthinkable and I was completely stunned. Then eventually there were other married pals and random acquaintances who whatssupped- made me wonder if maybe a lot of married people are married because they don't take marriage too seriously. They probably laugh at single people who grapple with "whew, forever, that's so huge."

[MacGuffin]

They probably laugh at single people who grapple with "whew, forever, that's so huge."

I will disagree.

[demivisage]

Mmm, I don't know about trying to make themselves "ugly" but there are certain girls who refuse to wear makeup, or fix their hair a certain way, or wear certain clothing, or shave body hair. I'm sure this is among the reasons why, in at least some of these cases.

:theclap: This is great. Just when I was starting to think men who didn't give a flying pig's arse that I don't shave my body hair and honestly preferred their women without makeup were normal, since I've met so many over the last few years...


Don't find it so hard to believe someone would choose to hide their looks.

amazingkae, I have a weird issue where I get hit on frequently if I'm wearing a long skirt, dress or a girlie tee-shirt. Until I left for college, my mother insisted I wear unappealing, too-large clothing -- I revel in the fact that I can now wear clothing that actually fits me, and I usually choose to do so.

That said, if I'm walking alone at night, I would much rather wear a long overcoat or something else that hides my figure.


Attraction must be a mutual thing - otherwise it's masochistic.

QFT.


um but what if she didn't know she was/is an attrative woman? What if she lived her life watching the world go by and thinking that everything was wrong with her. Eventhough there were men/boys following her and doing all for her yet she never once knew why, and just continued being her sweet normal self?

What then??

Happened to me, although I'm much more comfortable with the attention than I used to be. I still find it a little disconcerting, though.

I didn't exactly meet my mother's standards for femininity, and I grew up thinking I was ugly. Fast forward to college and being suddenly besieged by random guys...for a while, I didn't really know how to interpret their behavior. Some men were really friendly to me yet weren't interested in anything beyond the platonic, others seemed to be more interested in amassing lots of female friends (these were the most confusing), and others completely blindsided me because I just thought they were being friendly and they wanted more.


This is a very interesting thread- definitely some food for thought.

How true is this? I've got a lot of guy friends, but I never particularly noticed any of them showing a romantic interest in me. Am I missing out on signals, or do they really just want to be friends with me? (And if there are signals, what would they look like?)

Here's a signal, but it might not help in your case: Something like 90-95% of men who go out of their way to be friendly to you are romantically/sexually interested, especially if they don't know you personally. It's kind of an exaggerated friendliness (I wish I were better at spotting it at the time it occurs).

If they've known you for a while, it's a lot harder to tell. Their choosing to confide in you emotionally could be a strong sign (yes, there are men who do this and who aren't wimps. They most likely have a slight-to-moderate F preference, although I know an INTJ who does this too). Playful teasing with touching (tickling, perhaps) can be another. Of course, the best way to find out for sure is to ask out those friends you have a romantic interest in yourself. In my experience, a lot of introverted men hate to always have to make the first move...

[Motley]

ON: this 'testing' activity mentioned on the first post and the claim of the second post

if i am mean to a male, especailly if i find them attractive or appealing in any way, is because i want them to grow up as i do not respect them. dating a guy you have no respect for is what is shallow and personally i could never do that.
its like the younger sibibling you have who you see heading for a wreck that you've alreayd been through but you can only let thigns take its course and meet them on the other side.
im not sure about asking them to do things for you but treating them badly is my method of trying to cut way the excess crap and make a suiter. thats not shallow, alot of men do not deserve any respect and (in my experience) are repulsive to self-respecting women. no matter how boadacious.

feel free to [constructively] critise me, im not so wise.

[susanholmes418]

(i see this thread goes on for a zillion pages. pardon if if you've heard this one before)




Just imagine what it's like, when you suddenly start hitting puberty and get all this attention from guys. They start doing things for you without asking for things in return. They buy you things. You can get them to drive you places. Males from the age of 13-113 stare at you as you walk by. You can have sex with practically any single man you wish. You have all this power that was suddenly released inside you.


interesting, and not an atypical way to think. however, you're approaching this from a fundamentally male point of view.

some women do get a sense of power from having every man old enough to breed staring at them everywhere they go. some women are terrified by that same attention - and with damn good reason, too. far too many girls hitting puberty find out that men are interested in them by getting raped.

remember, too, that this "power" you're describing has it's roots in male cutural dominance. women who look a certain way are treated a certain way, and what that look is, exactly, and what that treatment is like has been an exclusively male province until so recently that it makes little cultural difference that things are opening up.

[QUPTE]Who's to blame these women for abusing this power? After all, they didn't ask for it - we're giving it to them. Wouldn't you be more curious as to why a woman isn't abusing this power? It'd be like having a magic wand and keeping it in your closet.[/QUOTE]

no, women Didn't ask for this.

the argument was made among some second wave feminists that any concession to male ideas of feminine beauty was a kind of gender-treason. read some andrea dworkin if you're really curious about why some women don't abuse this "power."



You could also see how a woman like this would start to group all of these suck-up, manipulative guys into one big package: men. A man who does not kiss her ass and try to buy her affection would instantly stand out from the crowd. But sadly, attractive women far outnumber the amount of guys who really have their acts together, which is why so many gorgeous women feel so frustrated with their love life. Sure, she could settle for her really nice guy friend who would give anything just to be in her presence - she could have him at the snap of a finger. But his attention would be overbearing.


this has gotten pretty far out - from theory to fiction to what seems more like wish fulfillment than anything else.



I suspect in the same way that guys feel sharp pain when being rejected, these girls feel pain when a guy disappoints them. He seemed so different at first, but then he somehow revealed that he's just another loser. Even worse is when the guy starts apologizing. Don't apologize, it's nothing you did - it's who you are. Apologizing only further reveals that you just don't get it. And worse yet is when he would say "I can change." The guy might as well be saying "I can mold myself to fit your every need" which definitely puts you in the manipulative suck-up category.


...and now... the projection...



Because of this pain of disappointment, you could see how women like this would come up with instant tests to determine if a guy is truly authentic. Which explains in my mind all of the crazy weird stuff girls do. Pretending to be angry. Asking him to do something for her. Making him jealous. What she's trying to do is size him up. She's baiting him into kissing her ass. As soon as the lips touch the ass, the door is closed. Why should she waste another minute with this guy? There are literally not enough minutes in the day to date every man who is interested in her, so she's forced to use these "speed-techniques" to figure guys out.


this generalization is completely absurd. seriously. you can't possibly be basing this on any kind of random sample.

upon second reading, the ideas here seem to be leading up to a "this is why attractive women only date jerks" thing. that thesis can usually be read as "attractive women won't go out with me."

the "dating jerks" thing is simple, and nothing like what you imagine in your last paragraph. one quality that most jerks have in common is confidence. misplaced? often. but still, they have it. what's attractive about confidence? nothing, really, but what confidence does for a guy is allow him to go up and actually talk to the attractive woman!!!

walk into any bar on any night. the self-identified "nice guys" sit in the corner; the "jerks" come up and talk. the attracive women, if they go home with anybody at all, will typically go with somebody who approached them. it really is that simple.

[hitomirou]

Description of a beautiful woman in the OP is very shallow and stereotypical.

[nonperson]

Description of a beautiful woman in the OP is very shallow and stereotypical.

No. Sometimes you have to take words and use them in their literal sense. You aren't being clever by trying to read deeper meanings into everything or by being politically correct.

Being beautiful is hard...................:sadbanana:

[avolkiteshvara]

Don't hate me because I'm beautiful.

http://images.celeb9.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/scarlett_johansson.jpg

[Delilah]

Being beautiful is hard...................:sadbanana:

I know. :hug:

Oh, how we suffer.

[nonperson]

Thank you both. You don't know how much it means.

[UniversalMagnetism]

Hmm, I've mostly never had any of these problems. I suppose (and maybe this is because I'm an introvert) that I assume a woman has no interest in me romantically unless she makes some kind of first move. Then, as long as I find them interesting and don't think they are repulsive physically, I will give the relationship a chance.

And, conversely, if I am interested in someone I will be blunt with them about it after deciding I like them and would enjoy learning more about them. I think most women will say yes to a date as long as the guy is genuine in displaying the guy's interest to the woman.

Also, someone mentioned touching. If someone is comfortable enough to touch you, then that's a form of intimacy that strangers do not usually partake in, and it would be wise to recognize it as someone having a more romantically inclined interest in you, unless they are family of course...No, grandma doesn't want a romantic relationship with you, I hope :( ... or maybe :) hmm

[Unapplied Knowledge]

No, grandma doesn't want a romantic relationship with you, I hope :( ... or maybe :) hmm

Now if my wife is my grandmother, then I'm her grandchild
And every time I think of it, it nearly drives me wild
For now I have become the strangest case I ever saw
As husband of my grandmother, I am my own grandpa

Oh I'm my own grandpa
I'm my own granpa
It sounds funny I know,
But it really is so
Oh I'm my own grandpa...

[Rubicon]

Who's to blame these women for abusing this power? After all, they didn't ask for it - we're giving it to them. Wouldn't you be more curious as to why a woman isn't abusing this power? It'd be like having a magic wand and keeping it in your closet.



I guess a lot of people consider me attractive physically. I look very different from most women in a way that I do not necessarily like but which stands out. All I will say is that some days I see that I might be attractive, some other days I am rather critical of myself. Nevertheless, I think I have a rather average to higher estimation of my looks and potency as a female in general. I think I can get what I want if necessary. I do not really try hard at looking good, in fact, I actively avoid getting attention because it can make me rather uncomfortable and self conscious. I have always gotten too much male attention since I was about 10 years old (too early)and it has given me a desire to actively hide myself. I wish I could go without notice and I think now that I am getting older that this is becoming easier to accomplish thankfully.

I have "abused" my looks a little it could be argued, I think some saw me as hard to get and gave a lot hoping to get in return but I do not give freely in that way and there has been real disappointment with me after a while even though I explained my position from the start. I got my tuition fees and rent paid throughout university, I got jewellery (and not cubic zirconia to say the least), I got a car even though I did not even drive. Men are always giving me things... I wanted some of the things so I took them and the bigger gifts were accepted because they came from people who I really liked/was in a relationship with and who really liked me in a meaningful way also and cared about my welfare.

Everyday practically I get something for free, am I to say no? I went to buy some paper this week from a small stationery shop and the shop owner said I was gorgeous, made a big fuss over me, questioned why I was not coming to his shop everyday and gave me the paper for free and some cards too, I said no I would pay but he insisted to the point where it was easier to just take it for free. I will not go to his shop again. I think drawbacks to being "attractive" is that "beauty" fades and sometimes men can separate you from your humanity by seeing you as just a physical being and worst a type of show piece...this is extremely horrifying to me.
I would say it is probably quite easy to abuse this so called power of beauty and I do wonder why some men are so stupid about letting themselves be used. I sometimes wonder how much I would have if I had it in me to be a gold digger, surprisingly I think you get more by not having sex with them than by having sex, its the hope and desire that drives them I think. However, not all women want to abuse this power by being gold diggers to answer your original question, there is some amount of ethics and morality involved in not using people ... even stupid shallow men for your own ends.

[UniversalMagnetism]

Oh I'm my own grandpa
I'm my own granpa
It sounds funny I know,
But it really is so
Oh I'm my own grandpa...

Heh, you know, I guess I'm not perverse enough to have thought that far into it...;)

But I have to wonder now if that is even legal. I wonder how the government would deal with something like that.

[flyingsquirrel]

It seems to me that being a super attractive woman within Western Culture nowadays would make for a pretty hard life emotionally, but a fairly easy life in just about every other way.

[The Real]

To the OP I think you're spot on, and I'm a guy! I think in todays society they are right to perform such tests to stop fake men being fake. Good stuff and thanks for confirming my suspicions.

[ryan_m_parr]

Life as an attractive woman, for me wasn't too pleasant. End of story. . .
Hahahahaha. . . (That was non-audible)

[nonrandian]

Original Post

At that point (someone who can pass these 'tests' - at least under many conditions) you're talking about a guy who doesn't give a shit... which frankly...i would not doubt... is exactly the type of 'loser' this girl is used to being with. Only this loser doesn't even have the fake mask that he gives a shit.

What's the difference between an asshole and an asshole who pretends to be consciencious? Very little, i would say.

I would be willing to bet that the problems that most women have with men... especially good looking women... is that they seek out the wrong qualities in people, namely men.

I've personally spoken with several good looking women who have been with guys who cheat on, or hit them... I've tried to sincerely aid some through this type of struggle too, until they come out of it (or not). And, you know what? They wouldn't give me the time of day. Not only that, but 90% of the time they ended up back with the original asshole, or found a new one who did the exact same shit. And, there I am... mr. helper who actually cares about other people... but that nobody else gives a shit about. I've found this to be the case with other guys in similar situations, too.

So, i personally... at least in my experience... find that the struggles of good-looking women are just as much their fault, if not more-so than any other persons. It's easy to blame others for your own problems, but maybe if you didn't... you wouldn't have anymore problems (realizing their source and fixing it)!!

The fact that they do not realize it is a self-created problem as much as anything else.... shines alongside their flesh and form; exposed by the provocative clothes that they often wear -- by choice.

[ryan_m_parr]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v280/tomasutpen/album7/090427wastenot.jpg

[Harion]

seems to me that the answer to the life of an attractive woman is the life of a guy who knows and applies the cat string theory (http://www.attractology.com/theory/index.html)

every bad boy inherently acts this way
guys who know how to control their doormat instincts can be like one too
or not

lesson 1:

when a very attractive, drop-dead gorgeous, bomb-shell sexy woman enters the room
don't look at her, meet her eyes, even remotely give her any sign you're interested at her. zone her out, don't even twist that traitor of a neck you have. or blink your eyes one bit. continue whatever you are doing without missing a beat.

that girl will instantly zone in on you. she'll think: every guy in the room is looking at me but this fellow. what does he see in me he doesn't like?

and with one fell swoop, you've instantly distinguished yourself from the rest and piqued the interest of that woman. the next step then is how to continue on getting her to believe you're uninterested.

[Jonnyboy]

seems to me that the answer to the life of an attractive woman is the life of a guy who knows and applies the cat string theory (http://www.attractology.com/theory/index.html)

every bad boy inherently acts this way
guys who know how to control their doormat instincts can be like one too
or not

lesson 1:

when a very attractive, drop-dead gorgeous, bomb-shell sexy woman enters the room
don't look at her, meet her eyes, even remotely give her any sign you're interested at her. zone her out, don't even twist that traitor of a neck you have. or blink your eyes one bit. continue whatever you are doing without missing a beat.

that girl will instantly zone in on you. she'll think: every guy in the room is looking at me but this fellow. what does he see in me he doesn't like?

and with one fell swoop, you've instantly distinguished yourself from the rest and piqued the interest of that woman. the next step then is how to continue on getting her to believe you're uninterested.

I'm already quite distinguishable, thank you. Although on this forum I have a lonely creep pervert sexist lacking basic social boundaries persona, I'm different in person. I swear!