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View Full Version : Thanks to all of you, I just remembered september 11, 2001.



rainfall
12 Sep 2006, 11:51 AM
Ever since last dentists appointment, I cannot sleep as my tooth and in turn my neck and also my head hurts. Here I am: in pain,sleepless and alone in a room with no one to console me. And now this, reminding me about sept 11, how could you all?

In any case, all of you have wrought your own undoing, so let me begin to open that pus filled abscess that is my head. However, I must first make sure that only people who can stand the stench will be subjected to such mistreatment, which I will do right now.

DISCLAIMER:

If you are easily offended, if you are a strong feeler, if your relatives or friends or someone you know have died in terrorist act of 9/11 or if you are extremely patriotic I strongly urge you not to read this post past the disclaimer as you might find the arguments below injurious to you. If statements in this thread have hurt your feelings or have stirred you into anger, and you feel that you must absolutely post, I only ask that you do so with a cool head - chill out, have a smoke, come back cool headed and then post.

/end of disclaimer.

Now, as I am obviously a deranged lunatic, I only ask that you share any factual data that opposes the views stated below. With that said, let us begin:

Events as I see them :

(1)American citizens vote for a president, whoever he was in the times russians (U.S.S.R at the time) had the war with afganistan. I'm not big at recent history or politics and I am sure one of you nice folks will be able to fill me in on the details

(2)That president oversees policies; such as policies that govern CIA.

(3)CIA guided by the policies recruits, funds, supplies with weapons and teaches terrorists to aid afganistan in its fight against U.S.S.R ; this is beneficial to the US as it is in cold war with U.S.S.R.

(4)One of the terrorists namely osama bin laden is trained, funded and organised by CIA who follows policies installed by president who was elected by citizens who voted for that president.

(5)Cold war ends; U.S.S.R loses afgan war but the terrorists remain - now well trained and funded, with connections.

(6)Terrorists organised and led by bin laden crash two planes into twin towers.

/end the chain of events.

Statements :

A.) American citizens are in part responsible for the terrorist act of 9/11.
Reasons for this : They have elected a man who is responsible for foreign policies - and who's policies were to use terrorism; after it was found out that the man they elected used terrorism and in fact was the reason so many people died on september 11 there were no cries of outrage nor do I remember anyone moving to canada ( Please give me any evidence to contrary, I would be greatly thankful); the money they payed as taxes went into assault rifles, bombs and training for terrorists.

B.) American citizens passively encourage terrorism in the world : after it was publicly declared that CIA trained terrorists (I believe it was on BBC, anyone have a link?) there were no civilian protests against such policies or picket lines encouraging to put people responsible for training bin laden behind bars (that is CIA agents/people responsible on the US soil) nor have there been urges to change any policies so that it would not be possible to train terrorists for CIA or any other USA agency( At least I've never seen any; I would greatly appreciate it if someone has any evidence to contrary); untill people either do something to make sure that USA is incapable of training terrorists again or untill they immigrate to another country to make sure that the money they pay on taxes are not used to fund and arm and train terrorists I believe it is fairly right to say that it would be hypocritical for any american to say that america is at war with terrorism.

C.) Across many heated arguments another point has emerged - and that is that terrorism can be justified. I don't believe that and I think that no matter what was the situation it is still an ultimate evil to strike out against the innocent and defenceless for which I will give an example of america using terrorists tactics. In world war 2 america has destroyed two japan cities namely hiroshima and nagasaki in what was the biggest terrorist act in history of humankind. The death toll after the bombings consisted mainly of civilians (that's right: children, elderly, women and unarmed men) and is estimated at 214,000 people. There might be some people will argue that the bombings have stopped more casualties but that is rather hypocritical. I don't see how turning 214,000 civilians into ashes helps prevent human casualties. It seems more like trying to fight fire with fire.

Madrigal
12 Sep 2006, 03:18 PM
Thanks, I didn't know you ever made any sense.

Carebear
12 Sep 2006, 03:58 PM
Thanks, I didn't know you ever made any sense.

Amen.

Carebear
12 Sep 2006, 05:46 PM
B.) American citizens passively encourage terrorism in the world : after it was publicly declared that CIA trained terrorists (I believe it was on BBC, anyone have a link?) there were no civilian protests against such policies or picket lines encouraging to put people responsible for training bin laden behind bars (that is CIA agents/people responsible on the US soil) nor have there been urges to change any policies so that it would not be possible to train terrorists for CIA or any other USA agency( At least I've never seen any; I would greatly appreciate it if someone has any evidence to contrary); untill people either do something to make sure that USA is incapable of training terrorists again or untill they immigrate to another country to make sure that the money they pay on taxes are not used to fund and arm and train terrorists I believe it is fairly right to say that it would be hypocritical for any american to say that america is at war with terrorism.


It can also be argued that supporting dictators to exploit a country and leave the inabitants dirt poor is another way the US has supported terrorism. Nothing breeds terrorism like poverty and hopelessness. And nothing has worked better towards recruiting muslim fundies and terrorists than the war on terror.

Heleuiski
12 Sep 2006, 06:21 PM
It can also be argued that supporting dictators to exploit a country and leave the inabitants dirt poor is another way the US has supported terrorism. Nothing breeds terrorism like poverty and hopelessness. And nothing has worked better towards recruiting muslim fundies and terrorists than the war on terror.

Good call.

C.J.Woolf
12 Sep 2006, 07:31 PM
It can also be argued that supporting dictators to exploit a country and leave the inabitants dirt poor is another way the US has supported terrorism. Nothing breeds terrorism like poverty and hopelessness. And nothing has worked better towards recruiting muslim fundies and terrorists than the war on terror.
It's like the freakin Cold War all over again, only we recruited Communists then.

Carebear
12 Sep 2006, 08:24 PM
Exactly! Or the war on drugs apparently. Seems it would be better if the US started a war on peace, democracy and equality. :p

rainfall
12 Sep 2006, 08:45 PM
Interesting, posting about stuff like that usually got me quickly banned in other forums. Well, lets contunue:


Thanks, I didn't know you ever made any sense.
I usually prefer to post whatever I was thinking without illustrating what made me think that way/ evidence. It just seems redundant to do so, however it makes things easier when it comes to politics.


It can also be argued that supporting dictators to exploit a country and leave the inabitants dirt poor is another way the US has supported terrorism. Nothing breeds terrorism like poverty and hopelessness. And nothing has worked better towards recruiting muslim fundies and terrorists than the war on terror.
I would like to also note that any war with civilian casualties in it is bound to produce angry people. Just like losing friends and relatives and families in 9/11 has made many people angry in america. However, in war, whole cities and whole families are destroyed - sometimes taking out all reason and all will to live and only leaving desire to fight back in whatever way the person can. Think of what you would be capable of, if all your relatives/family/friends/coworkers were ripped into shreds of meat by what will be later declared a "precision strike" which "unfortunately" had "collateral damage". Sure, the country that has done so is merely trying to "bring peace" while "liberating" your country - but what does that matter if your life and life of many others is completely destroyed ?


Exactly! Or the war on drugs apparently. Seems it would be better if the US started a war on peace, democracy and equality. :p

On serious note : I don't see much peace; just the most powerful army in the world - billions and billions of money that could have been on something useful like technological progress wasted on tanks, planes, submarines, various explosives, wars, and killing the younger of american adult population.
I don't see much democracy when there are only 2 political parties that'll keep winning because the population will vote for them.
I'll have to get back on the equality thing; maybe someone can contribute.

fairgeek
13 Sep 2006, 12:00 AM
On serious note : I don't see much peace; just the most powerful army in the world - billions and billions of money that could have been on something useful like technological progress wasted on tanks, planes, submarines, various explosives, wars, and killing the younger of american adult population.
I don't see much democracy when there are only 2 political parties that'll keep winning because the population will vote for them.
I'll have to get back on the equality thing; maybe someone can contribute.

I think the bi-partism of the US will cause its downfall. (Wait, it already has...) It has something to do with the American culture which involves sports like football, where even at elementary-school levels the supporters of one side can become excessively patriotic towards a team, and during a game they will downplay the other team quite subjectively. This can escalate due to mob mentality, and pretty soon you have an all-out war. America is just short of starting another war - a civil political war on its own soil.

Okay on equality: There isn't much equality if the military rapes prisoners of war. I am of course referring to the Abu Ghraib torture scandal [can't post wikipedia url as I do not have 15 posts yet].

rainfall
13 Sep 2006, 12:22 AM
Here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse

Stoned_Rider
13 Sep 2006, 03:02 PM
You do have a point. I think the US made a huge mistake when they underestimated the threat Islamism posed to all of humanity, not just the USSR.

Today, too many people unfortunately still underestimate the Islamist threat. They are on the Islamists' side because the USA with its foreign policy is their common enemy (just like USSR was a common USA/Islamist enemy), but tomorrow they will be the ones the terrorists are going to strike next.

demagogic_schizoid
13 Sep 2006, 03:15 PM
any socialists who want to make a common cause with Islamism should just look what happened to the socialists in Iran who thought they could do the same.

rainfall
13 Sep 2006, 05:49 PM
You do have a point. I think the US made a huge mistake when they underestimated the threat Islamism posed to all of humanity, not just the USSR.

Today, too many people unfortunately still underestimate the Islamist threat. They are on the Islamists' side because the USA with its foreign policy is their common enemy (just like USSR was a common USA/Islamist enemy), but tomorrow they will be the ones the terrorists are going to strike next.
I am at on no one's side. As far as I'm concerned, I don't want to do anything with the thing - which is why I hate stevie harper, an asshole who has now comprimised security of my ass by supporting bush.