If you thought you were lonely....

[Avengardh]

"Loneliness does not come from having no people about one, but from being unable to communicate to others the things that seem important to oneself, or from holding certain views which others find inadmissable . . . If a man knows more than others, he becomes lonely." Jung, 1989 I can't take credit for this quote, aside from the fact that I already posted who it is from, S was the one who gave it to me today (or shall I say yesterday), so all the credit goes to her ^-^.

~*Aven*~

[Last Song]

~lonely~

[Dunearhp]

Great quote.

It is tiring when you always feel the need to hold something back when talking to people. I don't think it necessarily has to do with knowing more than others. When your primary focus in life seems to be different to most people you meet then many conversations seem futile. You know before going in that no matter what you say, the other person won't understand the concept you are trying to convey. The phenomenon is the same from their perspective in most cases as well.

Everyone has a subconscious filter between their brain and the world. When you try to communicate with another person the idea has to travel through two filters. Only a portion of the meaning is likely to get through.

[Aryan]

"If a man knows more than others he becomes lonely" - Jung 1989 (only for men, right! :) )

Well, quite right for ervy1!
But i wonder what is this thread doing in Gender Studies, rather than People and Psy.

[Avengardh]

"If a man knows more than others he becomes lonely" - Jung 1989 (only for men, right! :) )

Well, quite right for ervy1!
But i wonder what is this thread doing in Gender Studies, rather than People and Psy.
Gender Studies and Relationships.

If you look about you will find a lot of relationship advice ^_^.

I didn't want to appeal to the discussion of Jung himself or the basis of the quote etc, more how it applies to a person and their relationships.

~*Aven*~

[SheepDog]

Upon leaving a party, I've stated that I felt more alone in the presence of most people than I feel when I'm by myself.

[SensEye]

Loneliness does not come from having no people about one, but from being unable to communicate to others the things that seem important to oneself, or from holding certain views which others find inadmissable This I can agree with.


. . . If a man knows more than others, he becomes lonely. Unless (due to the "...") this is out of context I would not agree. I don't see how knowing more than others is a problem. Loneliness comes from being unaccepted which would come from the conditions expressed in the first part of the quote but not the second.

I would also say loneliness can come from not being cared about, which can come from being overly introverted, even if you share common views with others. If you don't interact with others to a sufficient extent, you will not bond and form relationships with them even if they find you personable.

[Bluehaze]

So a group of lonely people are not lonely?

(Serious or slightly humorous question, take it as you wish)

[waxwing]

Hm.

It's when I've been with one person who's contributed to my feeling less lonely. I attempt to connect further with him/her, maybe by expressing something a bit more profound, or by offering a part of myself I generally hold back. When there's nothing there -- no rest stop, no gas station, no food court -- and the person I thought was traveling in my direction is actually thinking about what time it is, making the shift back into my head is exponentially lonely. It's this long, sad ride home. The kind where sleep seems especially seductive.


"People are tricky. You can't afford to show anything risky, anything they don't know. The moment you do, kiss it goodbye." - Aimee Mann

"This is how it goes. One more failure to connect..." -Aimee Mann

[cjs55]

"Upon leaving a party, I've stated that I felt more alone in the presence of most people than I feel when I'm by myself."

Oh I definitely agree with this quote for myself. I think its more the general joy in social activity that others seem to find so easily is being rubbed in my face. Depressed people usually make me feel less lonely than happy ones, but I think thats a different famous quote :p.

[SheepDog]

It's the superficial nature of interaction at parties that does it for me. I'm not compelled to engage, so I end up thinking about all kinds of things that I just don't have the energy to try to share. In the end, I've spent a whole evening by myself, despite having been around all these people.

[Vagabond]

It is stepping out of loneliness for a (short) while that does it for me. I'd rather stick to it and get used to it.

[Avengardh]

It is stepping out of loneliness for a (short) while that does it for me. I'd rather stick to it and get used to it.
Were we separated at birth? I swear you keep answering what I would have answered...

That's exactly how I feel.

~*Aven*~

[Avengardh]

Hm.

It's when I've been with one person who's contributed to my feeling less lonely. I attempt to connect further with him/her, maybe by expressing something a bit more profound, or by offering a part of myself I generally hold back. When there's nothing there -- no rest stop, no gas station, no food court -- and the person I thought was traveling in my direction is actually thinking about what time it is, making the shift back into my head is exponentially lonely. It's this long, sad ride home. The kind where sleep seems especially seductive.


"People are tricky. You can't afford to show anything risky, anything they don't know. The moment you do, kiss it goodbye." - Aimee Mann

"This is how it goes. One more failure to connect..." -Aimee Mann
Wow.

[Avengardh]

So a group of lonely people are not lonely?

(Serious or slightly humorous question, take it as you wish)
Were you the one who got offended or "fakely offended" when I replied "okies" to a post? I keep thinking it's you but I don't remember...

Hmm, I would think they would still be lonely, if they are not at the same "level" or just don't see things the same way, but who knows, only Jung :D.

~*Aven*~

[jimkopelli]

Lonely together... know the feeling...

[Sackanaka]

:whistle: "Sing us a song, you're the Piano Maaaan!

.... Yes they're sharing a drink they call loneliness, but it's better than drinking alooooooone." happppy

[heeroyuy]

I feel more alone in a crowd than alone, unless the crowd is of people who understand me and what I say. I don't like the fact that people don't understand, I don't like the fact that people like ignorance, but I tolerate it. But I refuse to subject myself to situations which will make me feel even worse, by being around people who all that matters to them is the last time they scored or wether or not they're going to get sloshed and go home a wasted miserable wreck tonight.

Something else that bugs me about these 'groups', I hate it when people tell me to stop thinking. Even though they don't mean it, it is a slap to everything I care about and love in life. This hurts especially when you've opened up and you trust someone, and so you learn not to trust many people.

One reason I like this place, is I can post (to the correct place) almost anything imaginable and I am almost guranteed to get at least one person responding and saying that they can conceieve of what I think, and giving me input.

Yet another reason to stage an invasion of an island and start INTPland to counter the newly formed Jesusland :)

(/psuedo-rant)

[Groty]

"Loneliness does not come from having no people about one, but from being unable to communicate to others the things that seem important to oneself, or from holding certain views which others find inadmissable . . . If a man knows more than others, he becomes lonely." Jung, 1989
Chewed on that for a while. It's brilliant! Yes, I always walk away feeling even emptier.

Waxwing - I'm totally with you.

Okay, now that I've stared at it a little more...

"If a man knows more than others, he becomes lonely." is kinda bugging me. I think context is the issue here. Most people communicate in the context of their own lives and experiences. One may not know more, maybe they know the same things, just in a different way.

[s]

Thanks for the credit, Aven. I stumbled on the Jung quote doing research on gifted vs ADD characteristics. Here is one interesting find that sums up what I was looking for:

http://www.talentdevelop.com/Page76.

As for being lonely, I do feel lonely in the real world much of the time. Being highly intelligent and an INTP to boot is inherently rare, so many us are bound to feel lonely and misunderstood. As a parental unit and suburbanite, I am so unlike the frumpy soccer moms in SUV's in both physical appearance, personal interests, and personality. I am not in their tribe and they are keenly aware of it, giving me "the look" after it is clear the designer purse is apart of an effort to make me SEEM less strange (when you have children, "other parents" become your unwilling peers at birthday parties and such). I used to wish I was sorta normal or perhaps at least willing to look weird enough as a signal to other weirdos that I am like them.

I am a square peg who has finally given up on finding a square hole. Luckily, I have some square pegs to comisserate with... thanks to this board.

[xavierd]

Being lonely has always been an issue for me and is the main reason I 'fell in with the wrong crowd' when I was younger. I always felt like an outsider and that I was not accepted so I kind of said fuck the rest of the world I don't care anymore. I became a typical juvenile delinquent until I met my ex-wife. I still felt kind of lonely but had a wife and kids to come home to so it made it a little better.

Now that we're divorced the issue of loneliness is starting to come up again. Going out with my friends consists of going to bars and getting drunk. While I'm out I don't feel lonely, but on that ride home it usually hits my hard and I have to fight the depression that sometimes accompanies it.

@ S, Ender's Game is an excellent book, one of my favorites.

[SheepDog]

In a way, this thread epitomizes why I am drawn to this board. It's one of the few places I don't feel like a "stranger in a strange land."

A nod to S for describing "the look" (and related interactions) so well.
I could have written exactly what you wrote, heeroyuy.

[Avengardh]

Thanks for the credit, Aven. I stumbled on the Jung quote doing research on gifted vs ADD characteristics. Here is one interesting find that sums up what I was looking for:

http://www.talentdevelop.com/Page76.

As for being lonely, I do feel lonely in the real world much of the time. Being highly intelligent and an INTP to boot is inherently rare, so many us are bound to feel lonely and misunderstood. As a parental unit and suburbanite, I am so unlike the frumpy soccer moms in SUV's in both physical appearance, personal interests, and personality. I am not in their tribe and they are keenly aware of it, giving me "the look" after it is clear the designer purse is apart of an effort to make me SEEM less strange (when you have children, "other parents" become your unwilling peers at birthday parties and such). I used to wish I was sorta normal or perhaps at least willing to look weird enough as a signal to other weirdos that I am like them.

I am a square peg who has finally given up on finding a square hole. Luckily, I have some square pegs to comisserate with... thanks to this board.
You are quite welcome my friend, and glad to see you are back.

Hmm, I wonder if more people would give up if we actually did do an INTP meetup one of these days??

~*Aven*~

[Clara]

... not in their tribe and they are keenly aware of it, giving me "the look" after it is clear the designer purse is apart of an effort to make me SEEM less strange (when you have children, "other parents" become your unwilling peers at birthday parties and such). I used to wish I was sorta normal or perhaps at least willing to look weird enough as a signal to other weirdos that I am like them.
Aaw, no... and you don't know, maybe you'll start a trend ;)

S, I've gotten that look. In the town where we used to live, I realized, with shock, that it was very possible that the woman speaking with me may have been searching for a tactful way to tell me that there was something "off" about walking to the library with two small kids, talking and letting them lead the conversation...
She didn't, after all, tell me I should be saying, "Oh, I know I should be trying more... but who has the time!"
I think they are afraid, and don't know it (not unreasonably: mothers get credited/blamed for more than our share)

[Six]

Upon leaving a party, I've stated that I felt more alone in the presence of most people than I feel when I'm by myself.that is so well put and damn true at the same time...


In a way, this thread epitomizes why I am drawn to this board. It's one of the few places I don't feel like a "stranger in a strange land."
yup. I think for a big part because of what heeroyuy said. this is a place where I get input. or at least feedback.
it's rather seldom that other people's input can move my thoughts.
dunno how to put that.
mostly it's me who gets others to think in a different way... like in a stunned "oh. wow. well... if you put it like that... never thought about it that way..."
I only know one person in real life who can do that to me.

now I'm thinking about if that makes me feel lonely...
at times I guess. at those times where I miss....ugh...the German word would be "Gelassenheit". which my dictionary tells me should be calmness or composure, which dosn't describe what I mean... it's just that distant state of mind... that state which puts everthing in the right...proportion...

[booyalab]

Generally speaking, the more people in a room, the more alone I feel. That is, if the point is socializing..like at a party or in a club. AND if I don't have anyone I know to talk to. The only way I can learn to socialize among a group of people ,if I don't know most of them well, is if we're playing a game of some kind.

[Six]

but there is a difference between feeling alone and feeling lonely... I have less problems with feeling alone which can be really relaxing...

feeling lonely though is disturbing

[officebum1978]

Have u ever noticed in big group social situations how fake everyone acts. hardly anyone mentions anything worthy and most people aren't listening instead thinking of what they gonna say next to look good! I used to get depressed and question why I was different when i didn't fit in but now i realise i'm no good in a big group even when i know all the people but pride myself that i'm more than ok one on one

[SheepDog]

Conversation seems to follow the lowest common denominator, which seems to drop as you add more people. Funny, though, because the volume increases at the same time.

[officebum1978]

i'm crap at remembering quotes but Nietzche says something along the lines...."at the well where the herd drink from the water is poisoned"

[Edmond Zedo]

Nietsche is the man. He's the dude in the chair. We are merely here. Well obviously we're here, but like, well, you know.

[MasterMerk]

Jung's quote holds a large amount of weight for me.

"Loneliness does not come from having no people about one, but from being unable to communicate to others the things that seem important to oneself, or from holding certain views which others find inadmissable . . ."

For me, I cant talk to much people about my ambitions, ideals, values or anything that holds my being together. They either don't understand and think me an "unrealistic dreamer", or nod in an apethetic, "yeah, whatever" fashion. My parents are like this, stomping my spirit when I display a little bit of free-thought or esteem for something I care about. That really hurts, especially when my friends dont understand what I'm trying to say.

"If a man knows more than others, he becomes lonely." Jung, 1989

Smalltalk is the language of the simple, the ignorant and the average (no offense to anyone, we are what we are). I am incapable of smalltalk with people, and I think alot of us here would share that "social defect" (Ha!). I believe what Jung means is that when someone is incapable of "smalltalk", and more interested in talking about heavier subjects, he won't be able to communicate with alot of people in this world who wont be able to comprehend his message. And we all know there is *alot* of people out there like that.


So in order to not be lonley, surround yourself with intuitive, deep, perceptive people who will understand where you're coming from and reply with equal meaning. Now how hard is that? :/

[Distec]

I agree with Jung's quote - there are certainly times when I feel the need to express myself, in a serious and logical manner. I don't think I've found one person I can do this with =\ Forums are certainly one of the best outlets we have.

For me, there are three types of communication - small talk, serious talk, and smack talk (i.e. flirting or making stuff up to have fun). I can do serious and fun talk, I HATE small talk(who the hell cares about the weather, I have the capability of looking out the window to see if there is a blizzard outside, and know how to read the weather forecast(which by the way, is ALWAYS wrong) =p). Especially when people talk about trends or TV shows or something, I don't really care and don't do that stuff ;) When people try to small talk with me, I usually try to act interested if I'm in a good mood, or completely ignore them if in a bad mood.

[officebum1978]

In England its almost a crime to say something intelligent or to show some depth. I'm sick of people telling me to "shut up i'm deprerssing", when i try and talk serious. Like 2day i was talkin 2 my sister(who is usually ok) i was complaining about feeling stuck in a rut and suggested that in life people should be encouraged to do what they wantn not be pushed into conforming!! She told me to stop depressing her!!! Nobody says that if u bable on about the latest reality TV show or soap opera!! which i find truely depressing!

Begining to think labelling INTPs as depressing is a clever way of holding INTPs back! ok i agree i'm a bit melancholic and so are probably a lot of INTPs but if the rest of the world started paying attention to what is really goin on and ignore all the trivialities they fill there minds with they might c where we are coming from.

By the way I'm lucky to have a couple of good IN(T/F)P friends who know where i am coming from. Without them i'd feel really isolated and lonely.

[shadowjack]

There is a vast difference between being alone and lonely.

You can be in a full room or in a marriage and feel lonely.

I am heading for a divorce, at the end of it I will alone, but by no means lonely.

[ohnoaninfp]

:whistle: "Sing us a song, you're the Piano Maaaan!

.... Yes they're sharing a drink they call loneliness, but it's better than drinking alooooooone." happppy

I love that song!!!!! I sing it at karaoke once in a while.

[jyakulis]

I can't do small talk either :sighs: When I do I get this sense of guild in myself. Like geez what are you doing. Anywho this message board is pretty sweet. I'm glad I found it.

[MjrMarshmellows]

I should get some prize for sucking ass at small talk, I can't do it at ALL. I used to be fairly decent at the smack talk, but lately I seem to have lost any touch with that, that I've had. Sadly, deep and meaningful conversation doesn't get you very far ahead with almost anyone. I wish I knew more intuitives :(
and... Yes it DOES hurt a bit when you see your best friend (who you also happen to be madly in love with) fall for a guy who's using small/smacktalk bull shit.
(I'll save that rant for another day)

[David Carolina]

Lol. I know what you mean about small talk, but I bet youre
much better at it than you think.

Its probably the subject material that bores you- not the style.

Small talk is usually associated with the mundane or insignificant
chatter that surrounds daily events with people who float into
your realm by accident.

But if you could record a conversation with one of your most
intuitive buddies, you'd probably find it filled with small talk.

"It's been real....and its been fun.....but it aint been REAL FUN!"

[kuranes]

In England its almost a crime to say something intelligent or to show some depth. I'm sick of people telling me to "shut up i'm deprerssing", when i try and talk serious. Like 2day i was talkin 2 my sister(who is usually ok) i was complaining about feeling stuck in a rut and suggested that in life people should be encouraged to do what they wantn not be pushed into conforming!! She told me to stop depressing her!!! Nobody says that if u bable on about the latest reality TV show or soap opera!! which i find truely depressing!

Begining to think labelling INTPs as depressing is a clever way of holding INTPs back! ok i agree i'm a bit melancholic and so are probably a lot of INTPs but if the rest of the world started paying attention to what is really goin on and ignore all the trivialities they fill there minds with they might c where we are coming from.

By the way I'm lucky to have a couple of good IN(T/F)P friends who know where i am coming from. Without them i'd feel really isolated and lonely.
And here I was thinking that things would be different in Europe, "where they value artists".

[Hustler]

While I always appreciate thread evolution, I want to get back to the source on this one, because I think there is some interesting analysis to be made regarding Jung's statement:


"Loneliness does not come from having no people about one, but from being unable to communicate to others the things that seem important to oneself, or from holding certain views which others find inadmissable . . . If a man knows more than others, he becomes lonely."

What do you think he means when he mentions "certain views which others find inadmissable" or "If a man knows more than others, he becomes lonely."

I think he is saying a lack of intimacy, where I am defining intimacy as the ability to share your innermost feelings and thoughts ( something which INTPs are notoriously bad at doing ) is to blame in the case of loneliness. I suspect from these statements that Jung himself was lonely, and his statements reflect a defense mechanism which attempts to bolster his own ego against his lonely feelings. The loneliness doesn't come from holding views others find inadmissable, but from not having the confidence in yourself or others to communicate these views to them. No view is inadmissable by everyone else. People fool themselves into thinking they're "weird" and that "nobody could understand," when, in fact, more people than they imagine share their views.

Secondly, if a man knows more than others, he is not necessarily lonely. I maintain he remains lonely so long as that fraction of his knowledge which he wishes to share on an intimate level remains locked away by his inability to trust another person with it. Just because he doesn't share it with someone, it doesn't mean they don't also know it, and it doesn't mean he knows more than the other person. The irony is, two lonely people wishing for intimacy with one another may think they "know more" than each other, but remain lonely because they refuse to communicate something to each other which they both already know but keep hidden.

In his statement, Jung has attempted to set up the lonely man as isolated by his superior knowledge or the inability of other people to comprehend him or understand him. He has cast the lonely man as a noble, misunderstood thinker, when in fact, the lonely man is merely the man who lacks the courage and confidence to make real attempts at intimacy. In the end, I think loneliness is attributable to fear. Fear of what? Betrayal, a loss of autonomy, pain, abuse and/or many other possible things. Intimacy threatens to unleash a world of hurt upon us if we give it to the wrong person.

Perhaps this fear is a good thing and perhaps it is a bad thing but, whatever the case, it is the culprit in the case of loneliness. No one likes to admit being afraid, because it makes him look weak, and I think Jung was no exception.

[Chihbu]

thats a good quote. i was with it 100% until the last part "if a man knows more than others he becomes lonely."

growing up i sort of thought i knew more than other people but over the years i've come to accept that its just a difference in perspective and there is no better point of view.

i hate the idea of me being an arrogant person. its unsettling for me.

::EDIT::

thats a pretty good analysis. i agree. jung was probably a little full of himself and never really considered the fact that he just wasn't open to the possiblity that he was just a werid guy (like the rest of us hA hA). i mean we are the rarest personality type right?

but i think the statement "if a man knows more than others he becomes lonely" has some truth to it. this may be an extreme example but if u became the smartest man in the world and no one understood things that are commonly known today...that would be pretty frustration and extremely isolating. think of Nicolaus Copernicus when he theorized that the sun is the centre of the universe. he must have recieved hell! i'd be willing to bet he was dying for someone to agree with him. i don't think jung was so arrogant to blind himself from finding other people like himself.

[indie]

"Loneliness does not come from having no people about one, but from being unable to communicate to others the things that seem important to oneself, or from holding certain views which others find inadmissable . . . If a man knows more than others, he becomes lonely."


In his statement, Jung has attempted to set up the lonely man as isolated by his superior knowledge or the inability of other people to comprehend him or understand him. He has cast the lonely man as a noble, misunderstood thinker, when in fact, the lonely man is merely the man who lacks the courage and confidence to make real attempts at intimacy. In the end, I think loneliness is attributable to fear. Fear of what? Betrayal, a loss of autonomy, pain, abuse and/or many other possible things. Intimacy threatens to unleash a world of hurt upon us if we give it to the wrong person.

Very good points, but there are some other possible interpretations.

Courage may come from "the self," but it is invalid until it's validated outside of the self, and this is probably what Jung was saying. Possessing the greatest amount of courage does not make one confident. Confidence is that which results from courage of the self being validated outside of the self, in any way shape or form. When someone says "hello" to you on the street or in a hallway or in any place, they are essentially giving you validation of existance. In The Invisible Man, Ellison touched upon this idea slightly. If a human has courage, takes a course of action, and is never acknowledged or understood, that does not necessarily mean it's attributable to fear. Sure, fear plays a role in how much people are willing to share, but for some who are not *unwilling* to communicate, but literally *unable,* there is little recourse but loneliness.

If a human knows something inherently inside the self that cannot be communicated outside the self, there is little recourse but loneliness with that amount of knowledge. . . it's a burden, perhaps, unable to be tossed away, but equally unable to be held onto.

[tab922]

If a man knows more than others, he becomes lonely." Jung,

Don't you think this simply means those that "think" feel more lonely when the majority around them don't "think". Just like many of you talking about small talk, which I also, get impatient with, wanting to get into something with more substance and would rather be home reading a book if at a gathering where superficial small talk is all that is taking place. But, isn't the problem here that those doing the small talk, DO NOT KNOW anything else to talk about, while the THINKERS would like to discuss many things they know of substance. Isn't that a lonely feeling you get when you want to discuss those things of substance but no one is capable around you of even listening?

ALSO, have any of you worked in a specific area, like computers, and attended a convention or conference and suddenly felt less lonely because you are surrounded by people who can understand your "language" so to speak while none of your family or friends might?

hope that made sense

[cjs55]

I think he is saying a lack of intimacy, where I am defining intimacy as the ability to share your innermost feelings and thoughts ( something which INTPs are notoriously bad at doing ) is to blame in the case of loneliness.

No, I think it is fairly obvious that he believes it's the inability of others to understand one's innermost feelings and thoughts that results in loneliness. Whether you want to start psychoanalyzing him or not does not change that fact.

[Hustler]

No, I think it is fairly obvious that he believes it's the inability of others to understand one's innermost feelings and thoughts that results in loneliness. Whether you want to start psychoanalyzing him or not does not change that fact.

A lack of intimacy can come from an inability to share on the part of the imparter of information or the inability to understand on the part of the recipient. Loneliness can come from either and, I think, more often the first cause, though people would like to attribute it to the second reason as it shifts the blame away from them. People who are miserable (perhaps from being lonely) rarely want to take responsibility for their downtrodden lives, and choose instead to find fault with things external to themselves, thereby sparing their egos and justifying their perpetual inaction and desire for empathy.