Wide Open Spaces

[MacGuffin]

Once upon at time, across the vast reaches of internet, there was a forum dedicated to the INTP personality type. As the INTP forum (http://www.intpcentral.com/forums/) grew in size, conflicts erupted as they are wont to do among human beings.

And so there was created a forum called Open Spaces (http://intpos.8.forumer.com/) in response to the INTP forum. What was the intent of this forum? To fight injustices of terrible reign of INTP madmins? To soothe the feelings of jester-hatted member? To gossip about other members safely away from prying eyes? The reasons are perhaps lost in time.

I, your humble narrator and former admin, was blissfully unaware of this forum. For you see, despite the name, the forum was not open to all. Membership by invite only, and none of the members ever talked about it. Go ahead and run a search, you won’t find much outside the modbox.

After I became admin, I eventually learned of this forum second hand. The fact I was never invited even before I became admin bothered me a little, but that is my own personal quirk and subject matter for another vastly interesting thread sometime.

What really irked me was the secrecy. No one acknowledged it. As it appeared from the outside, the forum was set up primarily to critique this forum. Therefore as admin, I felt it was critiquing my work. But no one had the stones to say much to me in person, even as I exchanged posts, PMs, blog entries, and IMs with its members. I know for a fact people talk about this forum off-site, but it is one thing to do in IM, emails, or the like. To set up a whole secret forum takes it to another level.

Sometimes they act in concert (you may still see a jester hat on an avatar here and there), mostly though Open Space membership isn’t really much of anything.

Most of the other admins came to hold a dim view of this forum and its membership. It was seen as place where members met to cause problems for the forum. Secrecy breeds mistrust. Ideas from its members, especially by OS founder mgbradsh, were viewed with suspicion and ignored.

As time went on, this mistrust dissipated, and OS members were even offered modship (but never admin status). As I got to know some of the OS members off-site, my suspicions have largely gone away. The darker motives assigned to Open Spaces are false. I have shared some with a few others to alleviate their fears as well.

Recently, a new forum was created out of the ashes of Open Spaces: MBTI Nebulous (http://mbtinebulous.com/forum/). There are still some private sections not viewable by the public, but at least people know they exist (I was able to get into the Open Spaces private subforum a while back through a security breach – pretty dull).

This new forum does have some of the stigma attached to Open Spaces. I am hoping to eliminate that in this thread. By bringing this out into the open on a thread, I hope all the secrecy and mistrust will stop.

And finally, this last section is personally addressed to mgbradsh. I believe you care about this forum, you enjoy it. But as I have told others, you constantly shoot yourself in the foot (or on the Dr. Haight is a spy thread (http://www.intpcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14259), melancholeric is now shooting your foot for you). You have not logged in here for over a week. There seems to be more mistrust and miscommunication again. Click on the forum leaders, you are still a mod. I think you are a good one, and everyone wants to see you continue to be one. But your disappearing act and the new cloud of secrecy is taking its toll. If it wasn’t for Open Spaces, you probably would have been made admin already. The new forum is fine, but you are killing your credibility here. I don’t know if you will read this or if someone will let you know about it, but I would like it if you would please show up.

If former or current Open Spaces members would like to correct me on anything, please go ahead. I welcome it in fact, the lack of communication so far has hurt the forum. If anyone has any questions of me, go ahead and ask them. I am not speaking for the other madmins, I am merely expressing my thoughts on the matter and hope the forum is better for it.

[Hustler]

What would you like to see as the ultimate outcome of all this hoopla and maneuvering? Is there a root dysfunctionality underlying all of this which you think should be addressed? Why aren't you an admin anymore?

[CoHo]

That's one way of looking at it... a fairly skewed way in my opinion, but whatever.

Open Spaces.
Instead of complaining that there was a secret forum why not ask yourself why was there a secret forum? Why did so many members feel that they were unable to talk about things here?

The answer is fairly simple, and unlike both sides of this debate, not filled with dark motives: People like to talk to their friends.

Secret Forums
I enjoy being able to post something (once on OS, now on Nebulous) knowing that only a small group of people will read it. You know, sometimes I really don't want Domokun's opinion on Relationships, or Swift's opinion on Race, or EmmaPeels opinion of the government... sometimes I just want to talk to people.

This will continue to happen. There is no secret conspiracy, just people wanting to talk and not feeling like they can here. Fix the problem, leave it alone, bitch about it, do what you want.

I'm biased, not really because of being an OS member but because I believe in the system of closed groups. Let people talk in comfort without worrying if Claverhouse is secretly listening in, or that everything they say is being reflected in some Mod forum.

That's a perfect example, the Mod forum. Why do you guys feel the need to have a private forum? And why do you treat the OS (a member driven private forum) as being bad, and the secret mod forum as being valid?

[MacGuffin]

What would you like to see as the ultimate outcome of all this hoopla and maneuvering? Is there a root dysfunctionality underlying all of this which you think should be addressed? Why aren't you an admin anymore?
To get rid of the backroom B.S.

I don't think there is a dysfunctionality that I am aware of.

I took a break for personal reasons and was unable to fulfill my duties.

[MacGuffin]

That's one way of looking at it... a fairly skewed way in my opinion, but whatever.

Open Spaces.
Instead of complaining that there was a secret forum why not ask yourself why was there a secret forum? Why did so many members feel that they were unable to talk about things here?

The answer is fairly simple, and unlike both sides of this debate, not filled with dark motives: People like to talk to their friends.
There is a difference between secrecy and privacy. I will answer more fully at the end.


Secret Forums
I enjoy being able to post something (once on OS, now on Nebulous) knowing that only a small group of people will read it. You know, sometimes I really don't want Domokun's opinion on Relationships, or Swift's opinion on Race, or EmmaPeels opinion of the government... sometimes I just want to talk to people.

This will continue to happen. There is no secret conspiracy, just people wanting to talk and not feeling like they can here. Fix the problem, leave it alone, bitch about it, do what you want.
Those are all fine motivations.


I'm biased, not really because of being an OS member but because I believe in the system of closed groups. Let people talk in comfort without worrying if Claverhouse is secretly listening in, or that everything they say is being reflected in some Mod forum.
This is the paranoia I am hoping to dispel.



That's a perfect example, the Mod forum. Why do you guys feel the need to have a private forum? And why do you treat the OS (a member driven private forum) as being bad, and the secret mod forum as being valid?
But you know the mod forum exists? Yes? You can click on the forum leaders and see who has access, yes?

The modbox is not a secret. It is merely private. Some things should be discussed in private.

My main objection to OS was not that it was a private forum. But that it was a secret, whose members acted on this forum like they had no association with each other. Such a large secret group was viewed with mistrust.

I wouldn't mind if everyone could read the modbox. Except then users would try to manipulate, perhaps by appealing to the madmin they thought was "on their side" or whatever. Like OS, it is fairly boring most of the time.

[CoHo]

Too add to this, isn't this the core of the issue: You want your cake and to be eating it?

Sure INTPC may some-day allow members to have their own private forums like Nebulous... but you still want access to see what they are saying in there. That really seems to be what you are getting at.

Isn't that a little childish? You don't need to know everything that is talked about. Even if it is about INTPC. That mentality (I need to know everything you do) is what brings people to create private areas in the first place. Look at China.

[CoHo]

My main objection to OS was not that it was a private forum. But that it was a secret, whose members acted on this forum like they had no association with each other. Such a large secret group was viewed with mistrust.

Ok what would have solved this problem? I can't see any way to get around the mistrust. In short, I see the mistrust as your problem, not the members of <insert secret forum>.

Should the members start a thread "Hey guys, we have a secret forum and you can't see it", and then listed all of the members? And then provide weekly updates as to what we were discussing?

What's the solution to someone else's paranoia?

[MacGuffin]

Too add to this, isn't this the core of the issue: You want your cake and to be eating it?

Sure INTPC may some-day allow members to have their own private forums like Nebulous... but you still want access to see what they are saying in there. That really seems to be what you are getting at.

Isn't that a little childish? You don't need to know everything that is talked about. Even if it is about INTPC. That mentality (I need to know everything you do) is what brings people to create private areas in the first place. Look at China.
I don't need to know. I mean, yes I am curious, but no I don't need it.

One of the problems with private subforums is you fragment the user base. Perhaps there are plenty of annoying posters, but if you post something of interest, who knows what kind of response you may get? By secluding yourself away from the public, you can stagnate.

[Dr. Haight]

I am actually learning something from a thread :headphone:.

Who knew!

[raincrow007]

Damn, and I thought this was gonna be a thread about the Dixie Chicks (http://www.amazon.com/Wide-Open-Spaces-Dixie-Chicks/dp/B000002BZ0).



I guess it's kinda like them.

*shrugs*

[MacGuffin]

Ok what would have solved this problem? I can't see any way to get around the mistrust. In short, I see the mistrust as your problem, not the members of <insert secret forum>.

Should the members start a thread "Hey guys, we have a secret forum and you can't see it", and then listed all of the members? And then provide weekly updates as to what we were discussing?

What's the solution to someone else's paranoia?

There will always be paranoia. There is no way to cure it. But yes, an acknowledgement OS existed would have gone a long way to alleviating it.

[MacGuffin]

Damn, and I thought this was gonna be a thread about the Dixie Chicks (http://www.amazon.com/Wide-Open-Spaces-Dixie-Chicks/dp/B000002BZ0).



I guess it's kinda like them.

*shrugs*

I seriously thought about sticking a Dixie Chicks pic into my initial post.

[CoHo]

but if you post something of interest, who knows what kind of response you may get? By secluding yourself away from the public, you can stagnate.

That's why there are Private Forum Areas in Nebulous AS WELL AS the regular all-member topic areas. You can still deal with the main topic areas, but if you get tired of dealing with specific people you can revert back to the private areas to communicate.

OS was completely private because it was more like a single "Private Forum Area" that you see in Nebulous. I think the concepts started at OS had an impact on how Nebulous was designed. OS was secret mainly because that made it "Cool", and personally I don't think it was anyone's business to know.

Having that private area allows you to a place to hang-out for awhile if you are sick of certain members. It is like going to a bar and having this annoying fuck show up all the time. Instead of Pulling an Earwax (http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=14326) maybe it would be better to hang out some-place where that annoying fuck wasn't for awhile.

To add; the main posters at OS still posted here regularly, so it wasn't like we were hiding away from all inclusive INTPC (stagnating). I personally used it as "favorite bar" and INTPC became my "other bar when the favorite was empty".

[raincrow007]

I seriously thought about sticking a Dixie Chicks pic into my initial post.

Problem solved! :smooch:

[MacGuffin]

OS was completely private because it was more like a single "Private Forum Area" that you see in Nebulous. I think the concepts started at OS had an impact on how Nebulous was designed. OS was secret mainly because that made it "Cool", and personally I don't think it was anyone's business to know.

Right. I now know OS wasn't something bad. But it was viewed that way because it was "secret".

It wasn't viewed as a "bar" but some sort of rebellion society.

And to be honest, you will have to admit there was suspicion on the part of OS members too. You all could have invited current madmins to join. But there is a reason you didn't, right?

[CoHo]

And to be honest, you will have to admit there was suspicion on the part of OS members too. You all could have invited current madmins to join. But there is a reason you didn't, right?

Absolutley, I don't want to give the impression there isn't (Ref (http://forums.intpcentral.com/showpost.php?p=416122&postcount=3&highlight=claverhouse)).

Frankly, that is the nature of the beast. As an administrator, anywhere, you will be dealt with suspicion. It comes with the territory. Even the simple fact of knowing administrators (http://forums.intpcentral.com/showpost.php?p=413708&postcount=2) builds mistrust.

*shrug*

That will always be the case. The best thing to do is acknowledge it and try to make people feel comfortable. Personally, I would be all for private forum areas. I would recommend it to members (hey start your own private forum, go here for some details on how to do it). Let people feel like you just want them to have a good time. Remind them that this ISN'T A BIG DEAL, it's a fucking forum. We are all here to hang-out, not work.

[s0978]

One of the problems with private subforums is you fragment the user base.
"Fragment" implies some pre-existing cohesive solidarity existed in the first place. Maybe from your perspective it did.


But that it was a secret, whose members acted on this forum like they had no association with each other.I would not say there was pretense about its existence. Merely no effort made to advertise, no little mean-spirited desire to make others feel excluded.


By secluding yourself away from the public, you can stagnate. Sure, but users may also find a sense of community which renews interest in participating in the more public arena. Honestly, OS had been for me a glue to INTPC, and I very much doubt I'd still be around here if I hadn't made the kind of personal connections it enabled.

[MacGuffin]

The best thing to do is acknowledge it and try to make people feel comfortable.
That is what I am trying to do now.


"Fragment" implies some pre-existing cohesive solidarity existed in the first place. Maybe from your perspective it did.
Look at Nebulous now. If everyone just posts in the private subforums it will die before it gets going. By fragment I mean that quality posts end up where only a limited few can see them.


Sure, but users may also find a sense of community which renews interest in participating in the more public arena. Honestly, OS had been for me a glue to INTPC, and I very much doubt I'd still be around here if I hadn't made the kind of personal connections it enabled.
Then I am glad for OS. And sorry mistrust built up on both sides.

[Conan]

Let people feel like you just want them to have a good time. Remind them that this ISN'T A BIG DEAL, it's a fucking forum. We are all here to hang-out, not work.

Not to interfere in a discussion that's not my business, but I am glad this was said. I understand certain people have a different vision of the site and that's fine, but I do relate to CW's sentiment of wanting to "hang out" and interact casually with members he feels connected without the "watchful eye."

That said, I am still and always have been quite fond of INTPc and do believe the admin's management of the site is done with nothing but good intentions.

[s0978]

Look at Nebulous now. If everyone just posts in the private subforums it will die before it gets going. By fragment I mean that quality posts end up where only a limited few can see them.
I believe it is slow for other reasons. I like to think I know where to put my quality posts. &lt;_&lt;

And I know I am not adding anything right now you don't already know. This is a gesture, see, a show of support at your call for open communication.

[MacGuffin]

I believe it is slow for other reasons. I like to think I know where to put my quality posts. &lt;_&lt;

And I know I am not adding anything right now you don't already know. This is a gesture, see, a show of support at your call for open communication.

I appreciate it.

I'd like to see Nebulous get going. I certainly read and post on other forums besides this one.

[Lurker]

Look at Nebulous now. If everyone just posts in the private subforums it will die before it gets going. By fragment I mean that quality posts end up where only a limited few can see them.

I agree with this one. There's a military analogy here somewhere, something about having too many splintered divisions and not being able to function as a unit.

[Hustler]

I agree with this one. There's a military analogy here somewhere, something about having too many splintered divisions and not being able to function as a unit.

Yes, there is:

http://www.intpcentral.com/uploads/stratego.jpg

INTPc vs. the forces of obfuscation. Can you find Dr. Haight? Can you see how the opposition's forces are fragmented?

[MacGuffin]

INTPc vs. the forces of obfuscation. Can you find Dr. Haight? Can you see how the opposition's forces are fragmented?LOL.

I'd guess Dr. is towards the front. He's sneaky like that. :ph34r:

[Dr. Haight]

I liked it better when you guys ignored me.

[MacGuffin]

I liked it better when you guys ignored me.
Yes, most spies do!

[Dr. Haight]

Exactly.

[Hustler]

I liked it better when you guys ignored me.
For what it's worth, I basically still do. In most ways.

[Dr. Haight]

For what it's worth, I basically still do. In most ways.
Spread the word.

[Ferrus]

I thought INTPs were supposed to be immune from the infliction that affects most of mankind, to wit, becoming consternated over matters that are of no import.

[MacGuffin]

I thought INTPs were supposed to be immune from the infliction that affects most of mankind, to wit, becoming consternated over matters that are of no import.
Wrong again.

[Nemesis]

*shrug* I don't blame them. If I had the chance to create an invitation only secret society or was invited to one, I'd certainly enjoy it.

In many ways, I see it as being almost exactly similar to the Freemasons. I don't think OS or private subforums are inherently bad, just like I don't think the Freemasons are trying to take over the United States.

I do however wonder why mgbradsh is still a moderator here.

[Ferrus]

Wrong again.
Ah well, I won't feel sorry when the astroid falls from the sky then.

[Lurker]

The root issue is why posters felt the need to create such a forum as Open Spaces. Does it point to a disconnect between Cental administration and regular posters? If so, how can this be resolved? It seems to me that certain posters feel excluded from the decision making process here at INTP Central, and that their needs and wants are not being properly acknowleged by the administration here. Maybe admins need to come down to earth a bit in order to eliminate the us versus them mentality; you know, meet posters halfway rather than remain in their ivory tower looking down on the "commoners."

Also, the administration often acts in an arbitrary fashion with little to no explanation of their actions. More openness could go far in building a quality rapport between administration and regular posters -- honestly, I don't feel that many INTPs are comfortable with authority anyway, so why not include them more in the decision making process?

[Hustler]

I thought INTPs were supposed to be immune from the infliction that affects most of mankind, to wit, becoming consternated over matters that are of no import.

Don't be ridiculous, Ferrus. Maybe try to offer up some good input.

[Nemesis]

The root issue is why posters felt the need to create such a forum as Open Spaces.
If people want to seclude themselves big deal. Why do we need to be a big happy family if some of us don't want to be one?

[MacGuffin]

The root issue is why posters felt the need to create such a forum as Open Spaces. Does it point to a disconnect between Cental administration and regular posters? If so, how can this be resolved? It seems to me that certain posters feel excluded from the decision making process here at INTP Central, and that their needs and wants are not being properly acknowleged by the administration here. Maybe admins need to come down to earth a bit in order to eliminate the us versus them mentality; you know, meet posters halfway rather than remain in their ivory tower looking down on the "commoners."

Also, the administration often acts in an arbitrary fashion with little to no explanation of their actions. More openness could go far in building a quality rapport between administration and regular posters -- honestly, I don't feel that many INTPs are comfortable with authority anyway, so why not include them more in the decision making process?
INTPs do dislike authority, that causes problems indeed.

And I do feel that the madmins here should be more clear on their decisions and why they made them. I floated the idea of an admin blog/thread for such a purpose.

[Ferrus]

Don't be ridiculous, Ferrus. Maybe try to offer up some good input.
If you mean this thread then I think it is impossible to offer good advice other than to take a more blithe attitude to forum politics.

[Lurker]

If people want to seclude themselves big deal. Why do we need to be a big happy family if some of us don't want to be one?

I don't think that these people necessarily want to seclude themselves from the forum; after all, they are some of the most prolific posters here. Rather, I believe that their creation of another forum indicates a problem here that needs to be addressed.

[MacGuffin]

I don't think that these people necessarily want to seclude themselves from the forum; after all, they are some of the most prolific posters here. Rather, I believe that their creation of another forum indicates a problem here that needs to be addressed.

Was it directly addressed? Probably was, but that was a long time ago.

[Nemesis]

I don't think that these people necessarily want to seclude themselves from the forum; after all, they are some of the most prolific posters here. Rather, I believe that their creation of another forum indicates a problem here that needs to be addressed.
Why? The fact that they're the most prolific of members means that they attract negative attention. Private subforums I suppose are like Camp David for them. Who cares? If they don't want my interaction, why should I sweat it?

[bclark619g]

What needs and wants do certain posters have?

The administrators have always paid homage to me and every once in a while, after Omnirook reminds them, they even give me big fat envelopes to show tribute.

As long as INTP Central appears when I click on my bookmark, I'm happy. If the people giving their time and talents to moderate, or whatever the hell you call it, want to spy on me or have a secret "Moderator Hangout", that's fine. One less thing I have to do to have a spot to spout my speculations. Plus I'm not paying their salaries either. You get what you pay for.

In real life when you look around, you see all kinds of people who you don't agree with or want to see, hear or deal with. Did you think by calling yourself INTP and coming here to INTP Central, that it would be a perfect world? That all INTPs would magically be the carbon copy of you?

I look through the forums and I see a complaint forum, an X-rated forum, a WTF is this forum, a blog forum. Shit the place is like Wal*Mart, something for everyone--even friggin' smiley faces.

Here's a coupon, go on to the next forum down.

[Lurker]

Why? The fact that they're the most prolific of members means that they attract negative attention. Private subforums I suppose are like Camp David for them. Who cares? If they don't want my interaction, why should I sweat it?

Nemesis, you sound like such a kid right about now.

[Nemesis]

Nemesis, you sound like such a kid right about now.
That's nice. Got anything substancial or worthwhile to say?

[s0978]

The root issue is why posters felt the need to create such a forum as Open Spaces. Does it point to a disconnect between Cental administration and regular posters? If so, how can this be resolved? It seems to me that certain posters feel excluded from the decision making process here at INTP Central, and that their needs and wants are not being properly acknowleged by the administration here. Maybe admins need to come down to earth a bit in order to eliminate the us versus them mentality; you know, meet posters halfway rather than remain in their ivory tower looking down on the "commoners."

Also, the administration often acts in an arbitrary fashion with little to no explanation of their actions. More openness could go far in building a quality rapport between administration and regular posters -- honestly, I don't feel that many INTPs are comfortable with authority anyway, so why not include them more in the decision making process?
Seems as though many of your questions are rhetorical.

I, personally, have never taken much issue with forum administration here, and have always thought that overall they do a fine job. Though, admittedly, I never paid much attention.

Recently I've had something of a peek into their perspectives. Which made me realize how much consideration and coordination is actually involved. Frankly, makes me feel a little defensive for them -- it is clear to me that generally their intentions and efforts are grossly underestimated and sorely underappreciated.


If people want to seclude themselves big deal. Why do we need to be a big happy family if some of us don't want to be one?
wow. I hope this is the one and only time Nemesis makes a point which rather speaks on my behalf.

[Lurker]

Was it directly addressed? Probably was, but that was a long time ago.

I meant their issues and problems in general. I wasn't here back then.

For instance, Mg's suggestions of private subforums could have been given a trial run, just to see how it would go. If it didn't work, then they could always be eliminated. I understand the reservations of some about forming cliques, but the fact is that it's just human nature to do so. Accomodating the idea might have been a good idea, or even rewarding. And if it was a bust, the forums could have been eliminated.

They would not have had to exclude anyone, either. At Nebulous, anyone can have their own private subforum, and it's going very well. The main board isn't suffering as a result of it, either. Of course, it's still a small forum, I realize that.

But that's just one example; I'm sure there are many more.

I see both sides of the argument here. That's why I suggest finding a middle ground.

Personally, I'm not fond of cliques, but certain people will always form bonds in any social situation. And there's nothing wrong with that.

[Nemesis]

wow. I hope this is the one and only time Nemesis makes a point which rather speaks on my behalf.
You know, you could just say some variation of "I agree" and move on. There's no need for you to be a bitch to me.

[s0978]

You know, you could just say some variation of "I agree" and move on. There's no need for you to be a bitch to me.

"If people want to seclude themselves big deal. Why do we need to be a big happy family if some of us don't want to be one?"

[Nemesis]

"If people want to seclude themselves big deal. Why do we need to be a big happy family if some of us don't want to be one?"
We're not a big happy family, that doesn't mean that we automatically have to be the Hatfields and the McCoys.

PS- "Seclusion" was the operative word in that quote.

[Lurker]

Seems as though many of your questions are rhetorical.

I, personally, have never taken much issue with forum administration here, and have always thought that overall they do a fine job. Though, admittedly, I never paid much attention.

Recently I've had something of a peek into their perspectives. Which made me realize how much consideration and coordination is actually involved. Frankly, makes me feel a little defensive for them -- it is clear to me that generally their intentions and efforts are grossly underestimated and sorely underappreciated.

My questions are rhetorical. It's just interesting to dig a little deeper to understand the why behind situations. Personally, I don't have a real problem with the administration here, but I realize that some people do; my goal is to figure out why they do.

[s0978]

We're not a big happy family, that doesn't mean that we automatically have to be the Hatfields and the McCoys.

PS- "Seclusion" was the operative word in that quote.

Whatever. I'm trying to make myself comfy in the NT family room.

[Nemesis]

My questions are rhetorical. It's just interesting to dig a little deeper to understand the why behind situations. Personally, I don't have a real problem with the administration here, but I realize that some people do; my goal is to figure out why they do.
Why does that matter though? Do you honestly think the administration is going to change its behavior to suit a minority who has a problem with "big brother Claverhouse" looking in on their every word?

[Nemesis]

Whatever. I'm trying to make myself comfy in the NT family room.
That's good. Go find your own corner and don't talk to me then.

[MacGuffin]

Do you honestly think the administration is going to change its behavior to suit a minority who has a problem with "big brother Claverhouse" looking in on their every word?
I don't know where that idea comes from.

[Nemesis]

I don't know where that idea comes from.
Probably because of his omnipresent status, or his appearence of omnipresence.

[Hustler]

Why does that matter though? Do you honestly think the administration is going to change its behavior to suit a minority who has a problem with "big brother Claverhouse" looking in on their every word?

You should know better than to bring up Big Brother. Are you trying to get this thread moved or something?

[MacGuffin]

Probably because of his omnipresent status, or his appearence of omnipresence.
He is not, nor ever was, any more omnipresent than I was as admin.

[Lurker]

Probably because of his omnipresent status, or his appearence of omnipresence.

What do you think about it?

[Nemesis]

He is not, nor ever was, any more omnipresent than I was as admin.
Well, wether he is or isn't he obviously has the reputation of being so.

What do you think about it?
I don't, I go about my business.

[Madrigal]

Well, you've got your answer, Mac.

http://mbtinebulous.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3682#3682

[MacGuffin]

Well, you've got your answer, Mac.

http://mbtinebulous.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3682#3682
I replied.

[Lurker]

God, what a drama queen.

Who?

You can be dramatic, too, Nemesis.

[MacGuffin]

What's your problem tonight? Can I offer you some Midol?

Yeah stop posting on this thread, kpleasethanx.

[nobarcode]

This entire thread seems like it would be more appropriate at nebulous, than here. I'm not bagging on it. It just makes sense, to me.

[MacGuffin]

This entire thread seems like it would be more appropriate at nebulous, than here. I'm not bagging on it. It just makes sense, to me.
Not big enough forum yet. Plus, when I made the thread, I thought mgb would show up.

[Hustler]

And so there was created a forum called Open Spaces (http://intpos.8.forumer.com/) in response to the INTP forum. What was the intent of this forum? To fight injustices of terrible reign of INTP madmins? To soothe the feelings of jester-hatted member? To gossip about other members safely away from prying eyes? The reasons are perhaps lost in time.

I have a sneaking suspicion that you're not being completely honest here. I think you have some opinions on why the forum was created, and I don't think those things are lost in time. In fact, I think those things still resonate somehwere, perhaps in you and perhaps in the people who participated there. I think it goes beyond the secrecy and, while you are quick to dismiss the content as dull, perhaps it contained seeds as to why you felt sleighted or threatened or insulted or, at the very least, bothered by the forum's existence. If it had been a secret forum where the only thing there was a comparison in Easter Egg dying practices, which they wanted to discuss without getting flamed or ridiculed at INTPc, then this thread wouldn't be here today. But, it wasn't, and the sentiments which remain go beyond the secrecy. And, even now, you leave some of us sideliners wondering what was going on when you put out this partial expose but don't really disclose the contents of Open Spaces, continuing the tradition of secrecy and doubt (albeit unintentionally, I'm sure). Do you fear reopening some old wounds?

What was the intent of that forum and what is the intent of this thread? Is it a condemnation of the past and an indictment of the present? I can't tell, but I want to know.

[Serotonin]

The only thing I remember about that site was the guest who had an abortion (http://intpos.8.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=371). If indeed it was a regular member of INTPC, I think I know who it was, but am still not 100% sure, since I've never discussed it with anyone, in PM or otherwise.

I'm sure some of you out there are like "Duhhhh, it was _______, that's just common knowledge". Whatever

[MacGuffin]

I have a sneaking suspicion that you're not being completely honest here. I think you have some opinions on why the forum was created, and I don't think those things are lost in time. In fact, I think those things still resonate somehwere, perhaps in you and perhaps in the people who participated there. I think it goes beyond the secrecy and, while you are quick to dismiss the content as dull, perhaps it contained seeds as to why you felt sleighted or threatened or insulted or, at the very least, bothered by the forum's existence. If it had been a secret forum where the only thing there was a comparison in Easter Egg dying practices, which they wanted to discuss without getting flamed or ridiculed at INTPc, then this thread wouldn't be here today. But, it wasn't, and the sentiments which remain go beyond the secrecy. And, even now, you leave some of us sideliners wondering what was going on when you put out this partial expose but don't really disclose the contents of Open Spaces, continuing the tradition of secrecy and doubt (albeit unintentionally, I'm sure). Do you fear reopening some old wounds?

What was the intent of that forum and what is the intent of this thread? Is it a condemnation of the past and an indictment of the present? I can't tell, but I want to know.

I don't have access to the content of OS, so I can't disclose it.

Hypnos had some insight into my feelings regarding OS:

hypnos: I think it's because you saw them as friends
hypnos: Whereas I see them users
hypnos: any merit to that?
macg: not quite friends, but along those lines yes

The intent of this thread is to eliminate the mistrust and suspicion that has cropped up.

[Hustler]

I don't have access to the content of OS, so I can't disclose it.

But you did at some point. And you were able to form the impression that it was dull.


Hypnos had some insight into my feelings regarding OS:

hypnos: I think it's because you saw them as friends
hypnos: Whereas I see them users
hypnos: any merit to that?
macg: not quite friends, but along those lines yes

What a cold mofo.


The intent of this thread is to eliminate the mistrust and suspicion that has cropped up.

I guess this thread would have to be cross-posted to the moderator forum and Open Spaces and then everyone in the INTPc community allowed to read it in order to do that, if you know what I mean.

[kuranes]

What a cold mofo.



You mean Hypnos, I hope ?

[MacGuffin]

But you did at some point. And you were able to form the impression that it was dull.
I briefly looked at the OS subforum at Nebulous. Never seen the inside of OS.


I guess this thread would have to be cross-posted to the moderator forum and Open Spaces and then everyone in the INTPc community allowed to read it in order to do that, if you know what I mean.
I am sure by now they all know where to look.

[MacGuffin]

You mean Hypnos, I hope ?

He's a cold fish alright!

[Hustler]

I am sure by now they all know where to look.

No, the point was that everyone would have to have access to all the secret forums and restricted areas in order for the elimination of mistrust and suspicion to happen. It doesn't really matter if they look at this thread.

[MacGuffin]

No, the point was that everyone would have to have access to all the secret forums and restricted areas in order for the elimination of mistrust and suspicion to happen. It doesn't really matter if they look at this thread.
There isn't a lot hidden on this site, just mod stuff.

As for OS, you'd have to ask them if they want to open it up, pun intended.

[s0978]

how very interesting I have macguff in one IM window, hustler in another, and this thread up.

different types of communication are better fit for different mediums.

[Hustler]

There isn't a lot hidden on this site, just mod stuff.

Yes, and according to you, there wasn't much hidden at Open Spaces. But that didn't stop you from making this thread because you remember how its existence made you feel. Consider, then, that some of the people who are now spending the bulk of their time at Nebulous may well be feeling just like that, despite there not being a lot hidden on this site.


As for OS, you'd have to ask them if they want to open it up, pun intended.

I would need you to tell me who to ask.

[Hustler]

how very interesting I have macguff in one IM window, hustler in another, and this thread up.

Well aren't you just the busybody.

PS -- I would just like to let the forum know that, yes, I was successful in getting s0523 to agree to IM with me so, despite our ugly divorce, I think there's still some solid potential here.

[s]

Re: Hypnos

I would call him more "homeostatic" than "cold."

[MacGuffin]

Yes, and according to you, there wasn't much hidden at Open Spaces. But that didn't stop you from making this thread because you remember how its existence made you feel. Consider, then, that the people who are now spending the bulk of their time at Nebulous may well be feeling just like that, despite there not being a lot hidden on this site.

I don't know for sure about OS, just second hand info. I mostly made this thread because what happened with OS is seemingly happening again with Nebulous.


I would need you to tell me who to ask.
With the links and names in this thread, that shouldn't be too hard to figure out.

[MacGuffin]

Well aren't you just the busybody.

PS -- I would just like to let the forum know that, yes, I was successful in getting s0523 to agree to IM with me so, despite our ugly divorce, I think there's still some solid potential here.

Me in another IM window amounts to like 3 messages the last hour!

[Hustler]

With the links and names in this thread, that shouldn't be too hard to figure out.

This isn't about me figuring out stuff. It's about getting things out into the open. When did Open Spaces exist? How many people were a part of it? Which of the particpants there would actually share anything with me or post a bunch of shit from their forum here?

Look, I won't bullshit you here, I just want to know if there was anything there that would serve as good material to incite a massive, unfriendly flamewar here and now. Basically, just get me that and I'll be satisfied.

[s]

Me in another IM window amounts to like 3 messages the last hour!

Now, aren't you just the multitasking social butterfly.

[MacGuffin]

This isn't about me figuring out stuff. It's about getting things out into the open. When did Open Spaces exist? How many people were a part of it? Which of the particpants there would actually share anything with me or post a bunch of shit from their forum here?

Look, I won't bullshit you here, I just want to know if there was anything there that would serve as good material to incite a massive, unfriendly flamewar here and now. Basically, just get me that and I'll be satisfied.
Roll over to the OS membership list, look at the post counts. Can't help you with the flamewar, potential-mod.

[s0978]

I just want to know if there was anything there that would serve as good material to incite a massive, unfriendly flamewar here and now. Basically, just get me that and I'll be satisfied.

nope. This is a love thread, not a hate thread, silly.

[s]

Roll over to the OS membership list, look at the post counts. Can't help you with the flamewar, potential-mod.


Hustler as mod?

Its like watching the rise of--*mumbles*

Nevermind.

This may get interesting afterall.

[Hustler]

Roll over to the OS membership list, look at the post counts.

Dammit, why do you keep telling me to do stuff? You're being so difficult. Why?


Can't help you with the flamewar, potential-mod.

Oh, I think you can. And I know you've got a lot of ammunition to get this war started, so let's quit beating around the bush and get to the ugly business of flames, accusations and, through it all, healing.

[MacGuffin]

Dammit, why do you keep telling me to do stuff? You're being so difficult. Why?
It's like a game. No fun if I give you all the answers right away.


Oh, I think you can. And I know you've got a lot of ammunition to get this war started, so let's quit beating around the bush and get to the ugly business of flames, accusations and, through it all, healing.
Why is that better?

[Hustler]

nope. This is a love thread, not a hate thread, silly.

This is turning into a Hustler thread so, like it or not, that makes it a HATE thread. Not to mention, if you follow this thread back to it's origin, the whole point was to have a quality thread. We've already gotten rid of Nemesis, thanks to Mac's crushing GTFO post, and the layers of civility are getting peeled back, one by one, as we get to the real inspiration and meat of the original post. I can smell the quality.

[Hustler]

Why is that better?

You've still got some things to get off your chest, Vader, and all this dicking around and preamble isn't going to help you with that.

[MacGuffin]

You've still got some things to get off your chest, Vader, and all this dicking around and preamble isn't going to help you with that.
Heh, I've pretty much already done that. This thread is the result.

[s0978]

This is turning into a Hustler thread so, like it or not, that makes it a HATE thread. Not to mention, if you follow this thread back to it's origin, the whole point was to have a quality thread. We've already gotten rid of Nemesis, thanks to Mac's crushing GTFO post, and the layers of civility are getting peeled back, one by one, as we get to the real inspiration and meat of the original post.
hey, you messed up the possessive "its."


You've still got some things to get off your chest, Vader, and all this dicking around and preamble isn't going to help you with that.I don't think so. See, he made a lot of flames and accusations already.

[Ferrus]

hey, you messed up the possessive "its."
Nice to see a fellow pedant.

[s0978]

Heh, I've pretty much already done that. This thread is the result.
hey, jinx!

[Hustler]

hey, you messed up the possessive "its."

Do you really want to go down this road? Do you want to have to spend EVEN MORE time crafting your posts so as not to get called out on spelling and grammar?

[Hustler]

Heh, I've pretty much already done that. This thread is the result.

All talk. You haven't really let us know your real feelings on the matter, you walled-in INTP, you. What's it going to take?

[MacGuffin]

You haven't really let us know your real feelings on the matter, you walled-in INTP, you.
Woah, pot meet kettle!

[int]

Woah, pot meet kettle!


Plus it's already here.

[Hustler]

Woah, pot meet kettle!

So then you admit you're holding back.

[MacGuffin]

So then you admit you're holding back.
I did, for a long time. I let it out. It is gone.

Now it serves no purpose for me.

[Hustler]

I did, for a long time. I let it out. It is gone.

Now it serves no purpose for me.

You still are. You know it, I know it, and if you want to leave it at that, then fine. But, whatever you claim in defense of yourself now, it's not gone. Anyway, I'm just trying to be of service to you and your efforts at creating a quality thread and getting nothing but an unrelenting resistance, so I'll go back to my cage and wait for you to call me. Vader.

[s0978]

Do you really want to go down this road?

pfft, that wasn't pedantry. there a diversionary tactic. for fun.



*all proud*

[Hustler]

pfft, that wasn't pedantry. there a diversionary tactic. for fun.



*all proud*

I waited 24 minutes for that?

[KuJo]

everytime i look at this thread i get the feeling of "fuck it. im done."

[s0978]

I waited 24 minutes for that?
oh, you were waiting?

[Nemesis]

I waited 24 minutes for that?

Amen. (http://forums.intpcentral.com/showpost.php?p=416512&postcount=19)

[Jinx]

Way to blow the cover of that bunch of nerds. I'm pretty sure the last thing those nerds need is to be fucked with, so wtg, asshole.

[Architectonic]

Is this the official Inferior-Fe-function (not-so)-Anonymous thread?

[MacGuffin]

Is this the official Inferior-Fe-function (not-so)-Anonymous thread?
Yep.

I am off to Philly, see you all later.

[Hustler]

I am off to Philly, see you all later.

That's really unfortunate.

[MacGuffin]

That's really unfortunate.
Like the Terminator, I'll be back.

Perhaps there will be some quality posts in need of response by then.

[Sackanaka]

Wow, I thought the coolest part was seeing jinx a member when I started reading this thread, and now he's banned.

*standing ovation*

[melancholeric]

All this intersite drama is giving me a fucking headache.

Sometimes they act in concert (you may still see a jester hat on an avatar here and there)
What? Where?

The forum started March 16th 2005. I joined some hours after it was created.

From what I gather from the PMs around then and the early threads, the initial plan was to create an INTP-only forum, because back then most of the "problematic" posters here had been non-INTPs. From Universal to Ghosteh to Edwin to sb to CC to thermos to ... you get the idea.

We decided to keep a low profile because we weren't sure how the admins and insiders here would take it, or we thought they wouldn't like it at all, they'd view it as a competitor, or us creating subversion. Which really wasn't our (or mgb's intention) at the time.

Or to create a clandestine secret clubhouse for the self-appointed elite. But that's pretty much what it eventually became.

And yeah, the jester thing started there. Among some other things. In the end those thing just blew more life to this place when it threatened to stagnate, which may or may not be a good thing. It was fun though, and that's the main reason I come here anyway.

There were some unfortunate incidents that led us to being more exclusive who we'd invite. Basically, we only invited people that we could all agree on, and that we could trust, and that we thought "who'd fit in" there. And who were INTPs.

Naturally, that didn't lead to explosive growth. We discussed dozens of people, and nearly every time someone voted no.

Also, for the record, some of central admins were invited, but never showed up, or showed up and left. Not naming names. And you won't find them from the memberslist because we did prune some inactive members occasionally.

Most of the time the forum was pretty much dead. You do the math, it has existed for over a year and a half, and the total post count is around 8 000. That doesn't make a lot of posts per day.

Also, MacG, I think it would have been greatly appreciated if you had asked us (OS admins), or atleast mgb, before making this thread.

I understand your intentions, agree with them, and I'm glad this happened. I didn't really have an idea how much suspicion the little subsociety created until it was brought up in some conversations recently.


By the way, what is/was "Uncommon Things"?

[KuJo]

jinx was a really crappy poster, but he had verve.

[Nemesis]

jinx was a really crappy poster, but he had verve.
As soon as EZ's ban is up, you'll have Jinx back.

[Dunearhp]

One INTP trait is the need to have somewhere/sometime to recuperate after socialising with a large group. It is a gross oversimplification but I think Open Spaces performed that role to some extent. A haven from the haven if you like.

The problem is that here, some posters will always dominate discussions through their high post rate.

I was invited in November last year. Despite the potential for secret gossip/bitching I thought the members showed remarkable restraint.
I didn't post much there, but I could see the reason for its existence, and considered it to be fairly innocuous. It may have even served as a pressure valve, improving the stability of this forum.

Mods an get extremely attached to the fora they are involved in, so do some members. Try not to treat these things too politically.

Move along folks, nothing to see here.

[cerene]

As usual I didn't have time to read this whole thread, but I read first couple of pages and I started nodding my head in understanding of all sides, because it all sounds very familiar.
I've been manager and asst. manager (equivalent of mod and admin) in MSN Groups, and I see this happen every time. Some of the new people always think the group is "cliquey" and the old-time people seem to "stick together" and know things that every else doesn't know. The managers and long-time members will always have other places to go to discuss inside information..... it's necessary actually, I mean how can you run a group without having offline discussions?
Every group I've been a member or manager of, has had a separate "managers" group. I know it makes some people nervous, like there's something they're missing, which is totally understandable; I must admit that I myself had a bit of an "I'm feeling left out" reaction to the blue jester hats, but my logic quickly told me that I'm new here, and I do know how these things go, so ultimately I didn't take it personally. But again, it's necessary, and people just have to remember that everyone here was new at some point, INTPc was not here when the cavemen were around, and even the person who started this, whoever that is, was "new" when they started it.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents..... having been on all sides of this, and seeing it over and over, this is just how groups and forums go!


-

[bclark619g]

Well put, Cerene.

[last_caress]

"Like sands through the hour glass, so are the Days of Our Lives."

[Conan]

I would like to point out that for some strange reason, the song "Wide Open Spaces" by the Dixie Chicks has been on repeat in my head for the last 24 hours.

[cerene]

I would like to point out that for some strange reason, the song "Wide Open Spaces" by the Dixie Chicks has been on repeat in my head for the last 24 hours.

you poor thing =))

[MacGuffin]

All this intersite drama is giving me a fucking headache.

What? Where?

The forum started March 16th 2005. I joined some hours after it was created.

From what I gather from the PMs around then and the early threads, the initial plan was to create an INTP-only forum, because back then most of the "problematic" posters here had been non-INTPs. From Universal to Ghosteh to Edwin to sb to CC to thermos to ... you get the idea.

We decided to keep a low profile because we weren't sure how the admins and insiders here would take it, or we thought they wouldn't like it at all, they'd view it as a competitor, or us creating subversion. Which really wasn't our (or mgb's intention) at the time.

Or to create a clandestine secret clubhouse for the self-appointed elite. But that's pretty much what it eventually became.

And yeah, the jester thing started there. Among some other things. In the end those thing just blew more life to this place when it threatened to stagnate, which may or may not be a good thing. It was fun though, and that's the main reason I come here anyway.

There were some unfortunate incidents that led us to being more exclusive who we'd invite. Basically, we only invited people that we could all agree on, and that we could trust, and that we thought "who'd fit in" there. And who were INTPs.

Naturally, that didn't lead to explosive growth. We discussed dozens of people, and nearly every time someone voted no.

Also, for the record, some of central admins were invited, but never showed up, or showed up and left. Not naming names. And you won't find them from the memberslist because we did prune some inactive members occasionally.

Most of the time the forum was pretty much dead. You do the math, it has existed for over a year and a half, and the total post count is around 8 000. That doesn't make a lot of posts per day.

Thank you for your take on the issue.


Also, MacG, I think it would have been greatly appreciated if you had asked us (OS admins), or atleast mgb, before making this thread.

Sorry, perhaps I should have. What should I have asked?


I understand your intentions, agree with them, and I'm glad this happened. I didn't really have an idea how much suspicion the little subsociety created until it was brought up in some conversations recently.

Yes, I don't think anyone should be wary of OS.


By the way, what is/was "Uncommon Things"?
Oh I forgot that one! I am trying to add up all the forums I've been a part of that have their roots here at INTPc. I think the total is six. Other than NCen and Nebulous, none of them really discussed INTPc or its members from what I recall.

I tried to do a search for some "Uncommon Things" online, but nothing seems to exist anymore. I think Div invited me after my drivel (http://www.intpcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2113) thread, but that forum was pretty much stillborn. It died around the time OS was started I would guess.

[int]

lol. Oh yeah. Div and a couple others started the Uncommon site that they invited me to, as an admin.

I was kinda offended at first but kept quiet and watched it not evolve into much. I felt kinda awkward being there as I was out of the loop. It eventually dissipated into the ether.

My concern with all these sites that they only want INTPs - and no 3 people agree on the requirements that constitute an "INTP" person. So if you put a committee together, they inherently won't agree who should join, and they end up without a strong enough community to survive.

[MacGuffin]

Heh, I don't even remember int being a member!

[int]

I was "undfined".

[nobarcode]

...they only want INTPs - and no 3 people agree on the requirements that constitute an "INTP" person. So if you put a committee together, they inherently won't agree who should join, and they end up without a strong enough community to survive. &lt;_&lt; :)

And in spite of my 'record', there remains INTPc. :mellow:

And I've not yet been banned.

:whistle:

[dubbeltop]

Thx Mac G. I'm finally getting a little inside in why things are happening the way they do.

I guess this site requires even more N then I thought, to understand.

Anyway I prefer demodification (rulers) and more engineerification(builders). Thats is less power PLAY (secrets, pm games, and maverick mods) and more action TIME ( meaning volunteers and guides ,utilities concentrating on community building , to make INTPc a user friendly environment if that is the goal :sadbanana: ) . Because happy customers keep coming back and thats good business :) .

Let's try to make INTPc a INTP community like a perfect little village town and not INTP corporation where the "C" stands for Cash ,Cold and Creepy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Macintosh

just a thought....

[Helios]

Wow, I should pay more attention! I never noticed it wasn't a secret anymore till just now!

I knew about it before I left. Never an insider, never really cared. If people wanna secret forum, so be it.

This is only the internet folks.

Furthermore, it people wanna confess the secret...Hey, more power to them too!


I do kinda miss the way I imagined this place was when I first came.

[Hustler]

Wow, I should pay more attention! I never noticed it wasn't a secret anymore till just now!

I knew about it before I left. Never an insider, never really cared. If people wanna secret forum, so be it.

This is only the internet folks.

Perhaps you didn't get the memo:

http://www.intpcentral.com/uploads/Misc_Internet_Serious_Business.jpg

[CoHo]

Thx Mac G. I'm finally getting a little inside in why things are happening the way they do.

I guess this site requires even more N then I thought, to understand.

Anyway I prefer demodification (rulers) and more engineerification(builders). Thats is less power PLAY (secrets, pm games, and maverick mods) and more action TIME ( meaning volunteers and guides ,utilities concentrating on community building , to make INTPc a user friendly environment if that is the goal :sadbanana: ) . Because happy customers keep coming back and thats good business :) .

Let's try to make INTPc a INTP community like a perfect little village town and not INTP corporation where the "C" stands for Cash ,Cold and Creepy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Macintosh

just a thought....

are you sure that was a thought and not a seizure?

[kuranes]

I was invited to be in it by s0523, yet I knew that I was in consideration to become a Mod at INTPC. It turned out I needed a password from Mg, and I asked him for one. Then I got the Mod position. I had yet to receive the password, but thought it was likely coming soon. However, I thought it would be dishonest of me to not let him know that I was now a mod here. So I told him. I never got the password, and I assumed it was because of the change in my status. Later, Mg explained to me that they had intended to give me one but it must have slipped through the cracks, with different people thinking that it was someone else's responsibility to do so. Apparently some people thought that I had turned it down.

[dubbeltop]

are you sure that was a thought and not a seizure?

Read my lips:

"That's the difference in me and some, including all of the right-wingers who are attacking me now," Clinton said in the interview. "They ridiculed me for trying. They had eight months to try, they did not try

"And you got that little smirk on your face and you think you're so clever, but I had responsibility for trying to protect this country. I tried and I failed to get bin Laden. I regret it, but I did try and I did everything I thought I responsibly could."

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/060924/480/286c3c46547c4786974c9f5aa1baf1a6

:rant: :banana: :popcorn: :laser:

[MacGuffin]

I am beginning to think this thread was a waste of time.

[CoHo]

I am beginning to think this thread was a waste of time.



Funny thing I was thinking about the other day... the whole Nu Tau thing and how (even though it was a joke) you didn't bother to try and find the similarities between it and Open Spaces.

[MacGuffin]

Funny thing I was thinking about the other day... the whole Nu Tau thing and how (even though it was a joke) you didn't bother to try and find the similarities between it and Open Spaces.
That's like comparing the Cub Scouts to the 1st Cavalry Division.

[CoHo]

That's like comparing the Cub Scouts to the 1st Cavalry Division.

According to who's perspective?

You (on your side) or me (who has no idea of it other then it is a "secret club filled mostly with old members and administrators")?

Pot. Kettle. Black.

[MacGuffin]

You (on your side) or me (who has no idea of it other then it is a "secret club filled mostly with old members and administrators")?
I think (not sure) that Div and some others started it as a joke (s and Aven, not sure who else there was - any help?). Nu Tau = NT.

I added it to my own sig lately when someone reminded me of it. Also as a joke.

I hate explaining jokes.

[Hustler]

I am beginning to think this thread was a waste of time.

Perhaps you could explain in transparent terms, what, exactly would have made this thread not a waste of time. By the way, I don't share your sentiment. I learned some stuff and enjoyed many of the posts. I'm still not entirely clear about what Nu Tau is/was though, and I still wonder WTF happened over at Open Spaces. I can only imagine it failed because I was not a part of it.

[MacGuffin]

Perhaps you could explain in transparent terms, what, exactly would have made this thread not a waste of time.
I was trying to heal the cracks.

I failed in that regard. I had no idea mgb had suicided himself. The OS people are highly suspicious of the madmins still. Claver just resigned.

[CoHo]

I think (not sure) that Div and some others started it as a joke (s and Aven, not sure who else there was - any help?). Nu Tau = NT.

I added it to my own sig lately when someone reminded me of it. Also as a joke.

I hate explaining jokes.

I know it was a joke, but it was an inside joke. An inside club. Just like Open Spaces. That's the point I was trying to make.

You don't think of it as a big deal because you knew it was a joke. Do you understand why someone who didn't know it was a joke would consider it a secret society?

[MacGuffin]

I know it was a joke, but it was an inside joke. An inside club. Just like Open Spaces. That's the point I was trying to make.

You don't think of it as a big deal because you knew it was a joke. Do you understand why someone who didn't know it was a joke would consider it a secret society?
I didn't really know what it was at the time.

An inside joke in signatures = a secret off-site forum.

Cub scouts = armored cav.

Okay.

[indie]

I still wonder WTF happened over at Open Spaces. I can only imagine it failed because I was not a part of it.

What of this assertion that Open Spaces "failed"?

If anything, it (intp.os) realized the limitation of discrimination (based upon politically-delegated assumptions of "type") and opened its doors to possibilites with the MBTI Nebulous site; the useless "running around in circles" bias for type-preference and promoting "yes, sir" types that are so common with political circles these days well. . .

In non-democratic realms, it becomes quite obvious who is serving favors. Ask the forumers who they want to mod their posts and it's probably quite likely that their answers will be quite different from who the admins want to mod. But who gets "promoted" to mod here? The forumers certainly don't have any say. This seems to be a typical problem encountered with "legislative" type areas and number of constitutients: as an analogy. I seem to remember a certain post where you (Hustler) told all non-INTPs to get lost?

This is why we don't have mods at Nebulous, just yet. . . we're aware of how type-discrimination can be a factor, and anybody who wants to join and read the registered members' area can have a civil (unmodded) discussion about the concept of forum moderation without fear of bias based upon type preference. MBTINebulous is not out to compete with intpcentral.com any more than it's out to compete with, say, "ferretlovers.com".. We're more than happy and willing to link here and share info and ideas.

MacG, do you remember that time I wrote about when I was playing literati and somebody stole my ennui to make zees? Damn "E"s.

[CoHo]

*shrug* fine

You want to heal cracks?



What really irked me was the secrecy. No one acknowledged it. As it appeared from the outside, the forum was set up primarily to critique this forum. Therefore as admin, I felt it was critiquing my work. But no one had the stones to say much to me in person, even as I exchanged posts, PMs, blog entries, and IMs with its members. I know for a fact people talk about this forum off-site, but it is one thing to do in IM, emails, or the like. To set up a whole secret forum takes it to another level.


I see this like you are giving the impression Open Spaces did something wrong. Like you need some fucking apology because members started an off-site forum. That was the first impression I got from this entire thread: "HEY WTF A SECRET FORUM?!"

Even if there was cracks the first part of "healing" anything is coming to a half-way point. Doing some good ole' naval gazing into "Hey, why do these people not trust the madmins? Why did they start a forum?"

It's late, I'm trying to make a point about something here... It's like this: I can see why people would assume I'm a dink. I can put myself in their perspective and say “Yeah, that's an assholish thing to say”. Your first post doesn't even attempt to understand or hypothesize why people would be sick of the madmins (in that point in history). It makes me feel like you want someone to hold your hand and say “Well, this right here is a dink thing to say, do you see that? Oh, you don't. Well I guess we were wrong this whole time”.

[CoHo]

Something I should be saying: I don't care. Seriously. I don't feel strongly about this, I don't have any emotional attachment. This is history and I'm giving my perspective of that point in history

How I feel about you people now is totally different and filled with animated heart symbols

[Hustler]

What of this assertion that Open Spaces "failed"?

Okay, I retract my statement that Open Spaces failed. Truth is, I know virtually nothing about the site, its history or its contents, and all that I do know is thanks to this thread. Two things are clear to me, though: 1. It no longer appears to be active and 2. I was never invited. The logic behind my assertion was that because of 2, the site was boring and, as such, we arrive at 1, which implies failure.

Now the logic behind that assertion was that we're both INTPs and INTPs have similar senses of humor and, as such, you might find my parody of myself and blatant appeal to alogic kind of funny. My bad!

[MacGuffin]

I see this like you are giving the impression Open Spaces did something wrong. Like you need some fucking apology because members started an off-site forum. That was the first impression I got from this entire thread: "HEY WTF A SECRET FORUM?!"

Even if there was cracks the first part of "healing" anything is coming to a half-way point. Doing some good ole' naval gazing into "Hey, why do these people not trust the madmins? Why did they start a forum?"

It's late, I'm trying to make a point about something here... It's like this: I can see why people would assume I'm a dink. I can put myself in their perspective and say “Yeah, that's an assholish thing to say”. Your first post doesn't even attempt to understand or hypothesize why people would be sick of the madmins (in that point in history). It makes me feel like you want someone to hold your hand and say “Well, this right here is a dink thing to say, do you see that? Oh, you don't. Well I guess we were wrong this whole time”.
I'm still waiting for someone, anyone, to tell me why they did not trust me when I was admin.

Anyone?

[CoHo]

Oh yeah, and I think the vast majority of these “cracks” are all ancient history. There really isn't a problem anymore.

I don't see mgb quitting and claverhouse resigning as anything out-of-the-ordinary (or related to some greater movement). Old members move on, new members join.

[MacGuffin]

I don't see mgb quitting and claverhouse resigning as anything out-of-the-ordinary (or related to some greater movement). Old members move on, new members join.
It all relates, I didn't restart this thread tonight on a whim.

[CoHo]

I'm still waiting for someone, anyone, to tell me why they did not trust me when I was admin.

Anyone?

Christ, I can't think of anything specific. Seriously I never pay attention to much. Use your intuition. Think about all the stuff, from thermo to swift to Edwin Jefferson and Utopmik. The Threads locked/deleted without notice during the songbird/ez time. Any positions or things you may have said during these times... this was all during Open Spaces.

[MacGuffin]

Christ, I can't think of anything specific. Seriously I never pay attention to much. Use your intuition. Think about all the stuff, from thermo to swift to Edwin Jefferson and Utopmik. The Threads locked/deleted without notice during the songbird/ez time. Any positions or things you may have said during these times... this was all during Open Spaces.
I was admin well after all that.

[meshou]

I was kicked out of Open spaces because Deepsky was a little coo-coo, and after not visiting after a while, and then saying "I wonder if anything's happend," I was apparently banned for not being an active member. Having just visited.

Yeah, the stupid bullshit was thicker over there, and it was pretty much just bitching about people behind their backs.

[s0978]

the useless "running around in circles" bias for type-preference and promoting "yes, sir" types that are so common with political circles these days well. . ..

Thanks for the vote of confidence, IJ. :rolleyes:


I'm still waiting for someone, anyone, to tell me why they did not trust me when I was admin.

Anyone?
I told you, I didnt even quite know who you were, for a long time.


I wish people would stop thinking within an "us/them" framework. I think it gives no one enough credit to presume factions exist to the degree that individuals can't think for themselves and operate as sock puppets for their friends or in some groupthink mindset.

[CoHo]

I was kicked out of Open spaces because Deepsky was a little coo-coo, and after not visiting after a while, and then saying "I wonder if anything's happend," I was apparently banned for not being an active member. Having just visited.

Yeah, the stupid bullshit was thicker over there, and it was pretty much just bitching about people behind their backs.

Yeah, the fold and collapse of Open Spaces was probably the most interesting event in its timeline

[CoHo]

Why don't we just skype? This is taking too long

[MacGuffin]

Why don't we just skype? This is taking too long
I'm too busy gathering intel.

[CoHo]

:rolleyes2:

have fun with that

[MacGuffin]

:rolleyes2:

have fun with that
The contradictions make so much of it worthless.

But taking a cue from our fearless leaders... I feel we should still invade Iraq!

[MacGuffin]

PLACE-HOLDER FOR CLASSIC STATUS

[melancholeric]

Why did it take so long?

[MacGuffin]

Why did it take so long?

I forgot.

[Technical]

Way to blow the cover of that bunch of nerds. I'm pretty sure the last thing those nerds need is to be fucked with, so wtg, asshole.
I think Jinx summed it up. As usual.

[Architectonic]

Why did it take so long?

Waiting for a new generation of gullible intpcentral members to preserve the myth. :ph34r:

[melancholeric]

Waiting for a new generation of gullible intpcentral members to preserve the myth. :ph34r:
Some myths deserve to live forever. And this one will.

[Ferrus]

Some myths deserve to live forever. And this one will.
It seems new chapters are being written.

[Architectonic]

It seems new chapters are being written.

Though its not yet bestseller material. :ph34r:

[Delilah]

Though its not yet bestseller material. :ph34r:

Shit stirrer. <_<


Nice av!

[Ferrus]

I have a sneaking suspicion that you're not being completely honest here. I think you have some opinions on why the forum was created, and I don't think those things are lost in time. In fact, I think those things still resonate somehwere, perhaps in you and perhaps in the people who participated there. I think it goes beyond the secrecy and, while you are quick to dismiss the content as dull, perhaps it contained seeds as to why you felt sleighted or threatened or insulted or, at the very least, bothered by the forum's existence. If it had been a secret forum where the only thing there was a comparison in Easter Egg dying practices, which they wanted to discuss without getting flamed or ridiculed at INTPc, then this thread wouldn't be here today. But, it wasn't, and the sentiments which remain go beyond the secrecy. And, even now, you leave some of us sideliners wondering what was going on when you put out this partial expose but don't really disclose the contents of Open Spaces, continuing the tradition of secrecy and doubt (albeit unintentionally, I'm sure). Do you fear reopening some old wounds?

What was the intent of that forum and what is the intent of this thread? Is it a condemnation of the past and an indictment of the present? I can't tell, but I want to know.
This post is the conspiracy theorist's gift. As we all know half of what he is saying but half remains buried in deliberate obscuirty. And the bad feeling over recent bannings stokes the aesthetic of tenebrosity.

[Architectonic]

Nothing actually happens at WOS. That is the funny part.

Shit, I spoiled the secret. Sorry.

[melancholeric]

Nothing actually happens at WOS. That is the funny part.

Shit, I spoiled the secret. Sorry.

SHUT UP!

[Delilah]

Damn it Arch!

[attila_the_hunny]

Nothing actually happens at WOS. That is the funny part.

Shit, I spoiled the secret. Sorry.

You ruined the illusion of us being seen as terrorists now. /sigh

[Architectonic]

Are you guys stalking me now?

[Delilah]

Are you guys stalking me now?

What do you mean, now? Always have been.

[LongSilence]

But, but you lot use hamsters! That's like the epitome of evil.

It's all a ruse upon a ruse in ruse swallowed by a ruse caged in a ruse I tells ya. Everyone's in on it but no-one knows quite what's going on, finally anarchy has taken us, heralded by bloody hamsters.

[Delilah]

But, but you lot use hamsters! That's like the epitome of evil.

It's all a ruse upon a ruse in ruse swallowed by a ruse caged in a ruse I tells ya. Everyone's in on it but no-one knows quite what's going on, finally anarchy has taken us, heralded by bloody hamsters.

Yes, we are a cult of rodent worshippers. Not for sex though.


Much.

[nfinityi]

Lol. This shit is bananas. B-a-n-a-n-a-s.

[melancholeric]

Lol. This shit is bananas. B-a-n-a-n-a-s.

No. Not bananas. Hamsters.

[nfinityi]

No. Not bananas. Hamsters.
No, hamsters are adorable (and I suppose this debacle is adorable in some ways too), but mostly this shit is... just bananas lol.

[Lee]

This brings back memories, though not all good memories.

Remember when Edmond Zedo was "created" by booyalab to torment Songbird? Maybe Technical is booyalab, too.

[Night]

Remember when Edmond Zedo was "created" by booyalab to torment Songbird? Maybe Technical is booyalab, too.

This is a conspiracy worth supporting.

[cripple]

Remember when Edmond Zedo was "created" by booyalab to torment Songbird?
Is this confirmed, how come it has not been brought up before?

[melancholeric]

Is this confirmed, how come it has not been brought up before?

I am laughing so hard you can't believe it.

It has been brought up before. A few times. Oh, memories.

[Hermione]

Oh, good one. Cool.

Shit. I just remembered, they're both boring, too. Fuck. I never win.

[Lee]

Is this confirmed, how come it has not been brought up before?The evidence is compelling.

According to the testimony of Songbird, after days of obsessive scrutiny of the "Who's Online" page, booyalab and Edmond Zedo were never logged on simultaneously. Songbird claimed that booyalab embarked on an extraordinary campaign against her, spanning almost an entire year, carefully building up to an all-out flamewar between her/Edmond Zedo and Songbird. Meanwhile, behind the scenes she had been amassing support among other forumites and madmins, with the ultimate goal of banishing Songbird from INTPCentral forever.

[C.J.Woolf]

Yes, we are a cult of rodent worshippers. Not for sex though.
Of course not! Gerbils are for sex.

[Ferrus]

Of course not! Gerbils are for sex.
And for sticking up the backsides of madmins, I suppose.

[MacGuffin]

Yo, can you all reset my password?

I haven't been there in years and when I tried the "brane" one it said I was banned.

WTF?

[Dr. Haight]

Yo, can you all reset my password?

I haven't been there in years and when I tried the "brane" one it said I was banned.

WTF?LOL

mgb banned me from his other site without warning back in the day. I guess there's a hidden rule of some sort. Or maybe his sites don't have rules . . . I don't know.

[stopharian]

Is this confirmed, how come it has not been brought up before?

Booya does post over at technical's site. Maybe he has multiple personality syndrome.

[!diom]

Open Spaces = Ghey

[PenguinHunter]

Don't let this descend into acceptable bigotry now.

[!diom]

http://www.coke-babies.com/writing/florida/florida5/skeletor.jpg

[Architectonic]

Open Spaces = Ghey

So is intpcentral, but that doesn't stop you posting here. :ph34r:

[!diom]

You're thinking in absolutes..

On the spectrum of rad to ghey, x denotes intpc and y denotes open spaces:

Rad---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------x-----------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------y----------------------------------------------------------------------Ghey

[MacKenzi]

I thought only of vaginas when I saw this thread title. :\

[Delilah]

I thought only of vaginas when I saw this thread title. :\

The place is loaded with pussy.

[Anonymous]

The place is loaded with pussies.

FYP

[Delilah]

FYP

Are you requesting an invite?

[Anonymous]

Are you requesting an invite?

If I wanted to be bored by a whinefest, I'd go to TypoC.

[Architectonic]

That's good because the place is a myth.

[MacGuffin]

I'll try my new sig out here too!

[C.J.Woolf]

I'll try my new sig out here too!

"The G-spot is a sexual MacGuffin." -- Jezebel
Aw man, you had me thinking our Jezebel (of INTJ Forum) wrote that! What a letdown.

And isn't "sexual MacGuffin" redundant? ;)

[MacGuffin]

Aw man, you had me thinking our Jezebel (of INTJ Forum) wrote that! What a letdown.

I know, I should tell her off for not writing it herself.


And isn't "sexual MacGuffin" redundant? ;)

But I'm the g-spot now! Next time you're in bed with a woman, you'll be looking for me! :pornstar:

[C.J.Woolf]

But I'm the g-spot now! Next time you're in bed with a woman, you'll be looking for me! :pornstar:
Like they looked for Eldorado?

[MacGuffin]

Like they looked for Eldorado?
According to Google Maps, there is one in Argentina...

[C.J.Woolf]

According to Google Maps, there is one in Argentina...
So the legendary Eldorado MacGuffin G-spot is in Madrigal!






/me starts a rumor.

[Madrigal]

This reminds me: I have no sex life.

<_<

[Faust06]

Every self-respecting communist needs a sex life.

.. amidoinitrite?

[Anonymous]

This reminds me: I have no sex life.

<_<

I seem to remember a recent blog post of yours about you getting fucked against a wall. So now you're either a liar, or being emo.

(No need to thank me, that's what comrades are for)

[carbon cold]

This reminds me: I have no sex life.

<_<

I have no sex life in the sense that I keep saying no to sex. It's fun and all..

But I'm just not that interested on a consistent basis.

I guess INTJs are less into sex than INTPs.

[attila_the_hunny]

I seem to remember a recent blog post of yours about you getting fucked against a wall. So now you're either a liar, or being emo.

(No need to thank me, that's what comrades are for)

That was 3 months ago!

[Anonymous]

That was 3 months ago!

Really? Wow. Well Madrigal, go have more wall sex. You're the only person holding you back.

[Madrigal]

That was 3 months ago!

Same thing I thought! (After "why that little... ")

[Madrigal]

Really? Wow. Well Madrigal, go have more wall sex. You're the only person holding you back.

Aren't you frisky tonight!

[attila_the_hunny]

Is Wide Open Spaces an euphemism for Madrigal's vagina now?

[Anonymous]

Aren't you frisky tonight!

I'm just trying to help! But I'll shut up.

[Works]

Is Wide Open Spaces an euphemism for Madrigal's vagina now?

I have the strangest desire to sing "O Canada" now.

[Rincon]

Back when I was actively participating in OS, we had this really funny nickname for MacGuffin, and we... oh, uh... I mean, nevermind, it was just a myth*.







(*) btw: I had a different username there, none of them knew me as "Rincon"...

[Madrigal]

Okay, whatever. I'll go get some and keep you posted. Thanks for the concern. :P

[Works]

Okay, whatever. I'll go get some and keep you posted. Thanks for the concern. :P

An active sex life is only an arm length away!