End Times?

[Heleuiski]

The Doomsday Code - On Saturday at 7pm Channel 4.

In this Channel 4 documentary Tony Robinson investigates the people with powerful political friends in the White House, who are trying to bring about the end of the world. Julia Bard reports

Revelation, the last book in the New Testament, is filled with bizarre, violent and terrifying images. Its origins are unclear and its content is controversial. Some say it is the work of St John but many others believe he could not have been the author. But whoever wrote it, described apocalyptic visions of plagues, famines, wars, devils, wild beasts and rivers of blood. It is so strange and complex that scholars down the centuries have continually reinterpreted its message and meaning.

Today, though, a growing number of American evangelical Christians reckon they have cracked the code. These End Timers believe that every weird word of Revelation predicts real events. Like a Hollywood sci fi movie they say that any time now the world will end. And when it does, true believers in Christ will be whisked up to heaven in an event called The Rapture while non-believers are left behind on earth to face famine, war, terror and destruction as the forces of good and evil fight to the bitter end.
Political implications

If this was confined to the personal beliefs of a few fundamentalists it would be of little significance but, says Tony Robinson, the leaders of the End Time movement are rich, well-connected and very powerful. Though the USA constitution enshrines the separation of church and state End Timers are frequent visitors to the White House. No one knows if George W Bush is an End Timer himself, but his policies are at one with those of the evangelical Right and his language is often apocalyptic, such as when he describes the 'war on terror' as 'the epic struggle of good and evil'.

Is Osama Bin Laden the Antichrist? Or is Bush? Or are they both messengers of Satan?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/hr/thumb/9/9b/Osama.Bin.Laden.JPG/180px-Osama.Bin.Laden.JPG

Floods, hurricanes, earthquakes, the fight between good and evil...

Are we here... staring into the end of times?

http://www.channel4.com/culture/microsites/C/can_you_believe_it/debates/doomsday.html

[QQQ]

American Evangelical Christians are not the only ones that believe in apocalyptic end time events. There is a similar apocalyptic prophecy found in some Muslim sects, the president of Iran is a staunch believer of these prophecies. Muslims who are behind these prophecies believe that they (Muslims) will cleanse the earth of the wicked infidel before some famous prophet or something returns from the well he fell in some1500 years ago or so...I don't know the much of the details, hopefully there?s a Muslim in here that can shed some light on the topic.
So, I guess my point of responding is to suggest that it is not only the Christians who may be manipulating events to bring about these prophesy, but other faiths, atheists and agnostics as.
As far as any of those folks being Anti-Christ, I don?t think so.

[C.J.Woolf]

Can someone tell me why in the fuck Revelation was chosen for the Christian canon? What a troublemaker of a book.

I'd like to see a list of all the historical events that were called the End Times; I'll bet it's a long one.

QQQ, I've read that the Shiites believe in a Hidden Imam. Is that who you refer to?

[omnirook]

Yes, it can be frightening - especially if one buys into the remote possibility that anyone can rise up into and take a high place among the power elite while holding any genuine religious beliefs. No, in my estimation, most of them - yes, even the pope! - cynically use religion and its rank twaddle for the sake of convenience. I doubt that there's a single true power elite on any side in the "culture wars" who is not a secret atheist - and I am not saying that all atheists are w/o scruples and are capable of sending millions to their deaths just to turn a profit. However, if Dubya actually believed in Jesus, I doubt seriously that he would have been so quick to start up a bullshit war w/Iraq to benefit his pals in the oil biz and his pals over at Halliburten ... Psst - Christianity and Islam and all the rest of it - dead as Julius Caesar - fucking mummies that haven't yet blown out the last few farts, so it seems that they are still alive - you know, the way that corpses flop around and sit up in the morgue - relax: crap is crap, and crap eventually turns to dust.

[C.J.Woolf]

Psst - Christianity and Islam and all the rest of it - dead as Julius Caesar - fucking mummies that haven't yet blown out the last few farts, so it seems that they are still alive - you know, the way that corpses flop around and sit up in the morgue - relax: crap is crap, and crap eventually turns to dust.
As I see it, no religion "dies". Rather, religions are "killed" and replaced by other religions. And I don't see any rivals to Christianity or Islam on the horizon.

Your "mummy" still has a live Boris Karloff shambling inside of it.

[QQQ]

QQQ, I've read that the Shiites believe in a Hidden Imam. Is that who you refer to?
That's the guy. http://wsu.edu/~dee/SHIA/HIDDEN.HTM

[Nemesis]

What happens if (crazy thought) their meddling doesn't bring about the End Days. Then what do they say, even after they've purposely fulfilled all the requirements for Christ's return and Christ hasn't returned?

[Heleuiski]

Then they wait for the next time, and the next time....

[Heleuiski]

Yes, it can be frightening - especially if one buys into the remote possibility that anyone can rise up into and take a high place among the power elite while holding any genuine religious beliefs. No, in my estimation, most of them - yes, even the pope! - cynically use religion and its rank twaddle for the sake of convenience. I doubt that there's a single true power elite on any side in the "culture wars" who is not a secret atheist - and I am not saying that all atheists are w/o scruples and are capable of sending millions to their deaths just to turn a profit. However, if Dubya actually believed in Jesus, I doubt seriously that he would have been so quick to start up a bullshit war w/Iraq to benefit his pals in the oil biz and his pals over at Halliburten ... Psst - Christianity and Islam and all the rest of it - dead as Julius Caesar - fucking mummies that haven't yet blown out the last few farts, so it seems that they are still alive - you know, the way that corpses flop around and sit up in the morgue - relax: crap is crap, and crap eventually turns to dust.


I'm not sure... Christianity is almost dead in the UK yes.. but in the States? And Islam in the world... not as dead as Christianity.

Following a religious doctrine blindly, it's dangerous.

EDIT:- You are right the Pope talks crap, if he endorsed contraception in Africa we might not have the disgusting state we have of AIDS there now.

[earwax]

What happens if (crazy thought) their meddling doesn't bring about the End Days. Then what do they say, even after they've purposely fulfilled all the requirements for Christ's return and Christ hasn't returned?
"Oops, sorry about the environment and the wars and shit... But hey, we all make mistakes."

[Heleuiski]

Christ will not return. Not as himself, he'll be reincarnated as another prophet.

Will anyone believe what he is saying in this day and age?

[Krill]

Neither Bush nor Osama could possibly be the Antichrist. The Antichrist heralds an era of a single world government and also an era of peace. Neither of these individuals have done anything of the sort, and it is certainly not within their grasp.

Move along.

[LongSilence]

"Armageddon groupies" have Always existed in many forms. Hell, many environmentalists are currently heralding an 'end' to the world as we know it, or at least to our existence on it. It's an attractive image to exploit because it is so moving for almost everyone. People who hate can imagine their enemies being wiped out completely, religious people can imagine the sort of divine justice that appeals to their beliefs, but most of all people can use it to demand extreme action NOW.

Anyway, this article seems a little bit like alarmist propaganda of its own. All it is doing is just saying that there are people who believe the Apocalypse will happen soon, so what should we do? Act NOW of course (and stop them before its too late)!

[wranglertj]

Don't kid yourselves, Christianity in the United States is far from dead, my friends. And the current administration is nothing more that its logical consequence. Some additional food for thought on the End Times from Joe Bageant:

http://www.joebageant.com/joe/2005/12/what_the_left_b.html



M.

[booyalab]

Neither Bush nor Osama could possibly be the Antichrist. The Antichrist heralds an era of a single world government and also an era of peace. Neither of these individuals have done anything of the sort, and it is certainly not within their grasp.

Move along.

a theory among religious conspiracists is that the spirit of the antichrist will be produced by the Hegelian interaction between politicized Christianity and politicized Islam.
If you believe in the 'end times', the Hegelian idea is plausible, especially considering Hegel's connections with the occult.

[cafe]

Most of the Christians I know don't see it as their job to actively bring about the end times. A lot of world events are interpreted as being "signs of the times" but that's been going on for, like, centuries.

My understanding of Pat Robertson's beliefs are that he does not even believe in the Great Tribulation in the way that Left Behind types do. He's supposedly a "Kingdom Now" guy. That means that there isn't going to be a literal seven year great Tribulation. Instead, Christians are just going to set up a nice world theocracy so Jesus simply walks in and takes his rightful place on the throne without Armageddon and such.

Among Evangelicals there's a decent amount of variation in their interpretation of End Time events. I think in my own little church, there are Pre-Tribbers (the christians will get beamed up before the seven-year tribulation), Mid-Tribbers (beamed up after 3.5 years of tribulation), Post-Tribbers (no beaming until after the seven years of tribulation), maybe some A-Tribbers and A-Millinialists. My senior pastor is a Pre-Tribber and the associate Pastor is a Post-Tribber. Senior pastor does not even believe that the Tribulation will be a world-wide thing. He thinks it will be isolated to what was the known world at the time of the writing of Revelation or something like that. He's not big on prophecy teaching and in the eleven years he's been pastoring this church, he has taught on Revelation only once.

I wouldn't think the Post-Tribbers would be in a big hurry to "bring it on" since there is little chance of any Christian living through it, but instead they and their families dying a cruel death at the hands of the Anti-Christ.

The only area I can think of something like active bringing it on-ness would be in the political support of Israel. But a lot of Evangelicals are what I would consider superstitious about messing with Israel, anyway. We know from the Bible stories that very bad things happen to Israel's enemies. And, of course, Israel and the temple have to be in existence in order for many of the prophecies to be fulfilled.

Not all Evangelicals are in a big hurry to get things rolling. Evangelical teens are all praying that Jesus will not come back before they've had a chance to get married, since there is no sex in heaven and they aren't supposed to have sex until they are married.

So though I have heard world events being interpretted as being signs that the End is near, I've never heard anyone say anything like, "Hey, let' do ________ so Jesus will come back sooner!" Okay, except for world missions. One of the verses says that the gospel will be preached in every nation before the return of Christ. But that is not the only reason or even the primary reason for missions.

[CEOofRawness]

We all will die and rot in a hole anyway. At least, that's what seems most logical. The images implied in revelations are all eventually going to happen anyway. At the very least the human race will use up all available resources until there's a worldwide catastrophic event.

Besides, I'm more interested in the meteor that's supposed to hit 2012, the same year the Mayan calender ends and starts over. Those Mayans were outrageously accurate with their predictions, so I'd believe that to be a cause for the world to end before Revelations.

[Heleuiski]

We all will die and rot in a hole anyway. At least, that's what seems most logical. The images implied in revelations are all eventually going to happen anyway. At the very least the human race will use up all available resources until there's a worldwide catastrophic event.

Besides, I'm more interested in the meteor that's supposed to hit 2012, the same year the Mayan calender ends and starts over. Those Mayans were outrageously accurate with their predictions, so I'd believe that to be a cause for the world to end before Revelations.


In the year 2012 apparently there will be a cosmological allignment with the centre of the galaxy. Very exciting, maybe we are going through the 7 year period soon who knows?

I'm not sure, but I do know that if there is something really horrendous going to happen that afterwards we will all live in peace and harmony. As an eternal optimist thats what I'm hoping for.

:)

[Heleuiski]

Hopi Prophesy:-

The end of all Hopi ceremonialism will come when a "Kachina" removes his mask during a dance in the plaza before uninitiated children [the general public]. For a while there will be no more ceremonies, no more faith. Then Oraibi will be rejuvenated with its faith and ceremonies, marking the start of a new cycle of Hopi life.

World War III will be started by those peoples who first revealed the light (the divine wisdom or intelligence) in the other old countries (India, China, Islamic Nations, Africa.)

The United States will be destroyed, land and people, by atomic bombs and radioactivity. Only the Hopis and their homeland will be preserved as an oasis to which refugees will flee. Bomb shelters are a fallacy. "It is only materialistic people who seek to make shelters. Those who are at peace in their hearts already are in the great shelter of life. There is no shelter for evil. Those who take no part in the making of world division by ideology are ready to resume life in another world, be they Black, White, Red, or Yellow race. They are all one, brothers."

The war will be "a spiritual conflict with material matters. Material matters will be destroyed by spiritual beings who will remain to create one world and one nation under one power, that of the Creator."

That time is not far off. It will come when the Saquasohuh (Blue Star) Kachina dances in the plaza and removes his mask. He represents a blue star, far off and yet invisible, which will make its appearance soon. The time is foretold by a song sung during the Wuwuchim ceremony. It was sung in 1914 just before World War I, and again in 1940 before World War II, describing the disunity, corruption, and hatred contaminating Hopi rituals, which were followed by the same evils spreading over the world. This same song was sung in 1961 during the Wuwuchim ceremony.

The Emergence to the future Fifth World has begun. It is being made by the humble people of little nations, tribes, and racial minorities. "You can read this in the earth itself. Plant forms from previous worlds are beginning to spring up as seeds [as described in SW-II, Effects and Coming Events # 1]. This could start a new study of botany if people were wise enough to read them. The same kinds of seeds are being planted in the sky as stars. The same kinds of seeds are being planted in our hearts. All these are the same, depending how you look at them. That is what makes the Emergence to the next, Fifth World.

"These comprise the nine most important prophecies of the Hopis, connected with the creation of the nine worlds: the three previous worlds on which we lived, the present Fourth World, the three future worlds we have yet to experience, and the world of Taiowa, the Creator, and his nephew, Sotuknang."

The Hopi and others who were saved from the Great Flood made a sacred covenant with the Great Spirit never to turn away from him. He made a set of sacred stone tablets, called Tiponi, into which he breathed his teachings, prophecies, and warnings. Before the Great Spirit hid himself again, he placed before the leaders of the four different racial groups four different colors and sizes of corn; each was to choose which would be their food in this world. The Hopi waited until last and picked the smallest ear of corn. At this, the Great Spirit said:

"It is well done. You have obtained the real corn, for all the others are imitations in which are hidden seeds of different plants. You have shown me your intelligence; for this reason I will place in your hands these sacred stone tablets, Tiponi, symbol of power and authority over all land and life to guard, protect, and hold in trust for me until I shall return to you in a later day, for I am the First and I am the Last."

The Great Chieftain of the Bow Clan led the faithful ones to this new land, but he fell into evil ways. His two sons scolded him for his mistake, and after he died they assumed the responsibilities of leadership. Each brother was given a set of Tiponi, and both were instructed to carry them to a place to which the Great Spirit directed them. The elder brother [of the shining light] was told to go immediately to the east, toward the rising sun, and upon reaching his destination to start back immediately to look for his younger brother, who remained on Turtle Island [the Continental United States of America]. His mission was to help his younger brother to bring about the Purification Day, at which time all evildoers would be punished or destroyed, after which real peace, brotherhood, and everlasting life would be established. The elder brother would restore all land to his younger brother, from whom the Evil one among the white men had taken it. The elder brother [of the shining light] also would come to look for the Tiponi tablets and fulfill the mission given him by the Great Spirit.

The younger brother was instructed to travel throughout the land and mark his footsteps as he went about. Both brothers were told that a great white star would appear in the sky; when that happened, all people would know that the elder brother had reached his destination. Thereupon all people were to settle wherever they happened to be at that time, there to remain until the elder brother returned.

The Hopi settled in the area now known as Four Corners, where the state lines of Arizona, New Mexico, Utah and Colorado meet. They lived in humble simplicity and the land produced abundant crops. This area is the "heart" of Turtle Island [the U.S.] and of Mother Earth, and it is the microcosmic image of the macrocosm of the entire planet. Each Hopi clan perpetuates a unique ceremony, and the ceremonies together maintain the balance of natural forces of sunlight, rain and winds, and reaffirm the Hopi respect for all life and trust in the Great Spirit.

The Hopi were told that after a time White Men would come and take their land and try to lead the Hopi into evil ways. But in spite of all the pressures against them, the Hopi were told they must hold to their ancient religion and their land, though always without violence. If they succeeded, they were promised that their people and their land would be a center from which the True Spirit would be reawakened.

It is said that after many years the elder brother might change the color of his skin, but his hair will remain black. He will have the ability to write, and he will be the only person able to read the Tiponi. When he returns to find his younger brother, the Tiponi will be placed side by side to show all the world that they are true brothers. Then great judgment will take place, for the elder will help the younger brother to obtain real justice for all Indian brothers who have been cruelly mistreated by the white man since he came to Turtle Island.

The transformed elder brother, the True White Brother, will wear a red cloak or a red cap, similar to the pattern on the back of a horned toad. He will bring no religion but his own, and will bring with him the Tiponi tablets. He will be all-powerful; none will be able to stand against him. He will come swiftly, and in one day gain control of this entire continent. It is said, "If he comes from the East, the destruction will not be so bad. But if he comes from the West, do not get up on your housetops to see because he will have no mercy."

The True White Brother will bring with him two great, intelligent and powerful helpers, one of whom will have a sign of a swastika (a masculine symbol of purity), and the sign of the sun. The second great helper will have the sign of a celtic cross with red lines (representing female life blood) between the arms of the cross.

When the Great Purification is near, these helpers will shake the earth first for a short time in preparation. After they shake the earth two times more, they will be joined by the True White Brother, who will become one with them and bring the Purification Day to the world. All three will help the "younger brother" (the Hopi and other pure-hearted people) to make a better world. In the prophecies, the two helpers are designated by the Hopi word for "population," as if they were large groups of people.

The Hopi were warned that if these three great beings failed, terrible evil would befall the world and great numbers of people would be killed. However, it was said that they would succeed if enough Hopi remained true to the ancient spirit of their people. The True White Brother and his helpers will show the people of earth a great new life plan that will lead to everlasting life. The earth will become new and beautiful again, with an abundance of life and food. Those who are saved will share everything equally. All races will intermarry and speak one tongue and be a family.

Hopi prophecy states that World War III will be started by the people who first received the Light -- China, Palestine, India and Africa. When the war comes, the United States will be destroyed by "gourds of ashes" which will fall to the ground, boiling the rivers and burning the earth, where no grass will grow for many years, and causing a disease that no medicine can cure. This can only mean nuclear or atomic bombs; no other weapon causes such effects. Bomb shelters will be useless, for "Those who are at peace in their hearts already are in the Great Shelter of Life. There is no shelter for evil. When the Saquahuh (blue Star) Kachina dances in the plaza and removes his mask, the time of the great trial will be here." The Hopi believe that only they will be saved.

The Hopi also have prophesied that "Turtle Island could turn over two or three times and the oceans could join hands and meet the sky." This seems to be a prophecy of a "pole shift" -- a flipping, of the planet on its axis. The Hopi call this imminent condition -- and that of society today -- "Koyaanisqatsi", which means "world out of balance...a state of life that calls for another way. "

The following extraordinary Hopi prophecy was first published in a mimeographed manuscript that circulated among several Methodist and Presbyterian churches in 1959. Some of the prophecies were published in 1963 by Frank Waters in The Book of the Hopi. The account begins by describing how, while driving along a desert highway one hot day in the summer of 1958, a minister named David Young stopped to offer a ride to an Indian elder, who accepted with a nod. After riding in silence for several minutes, the Indian said:

"I am White Feather, a Hopi of the ancient Bear Clan. In my long life I have traveled through this land, seeking out my brothers, and learning from them many things full of wisdom. I have followed the sacred paths of my people, who inhabit the forests and many lakes in the east, the land of ice and long nights in the north, and the places of holy altars of stone built many years ago by my brothers' fathers in the south. From all these I have heard the stories of the past, and the prophecies of the future. Today, many of the prophecies have turned to stories, and few are left -- the past grows longer, and the future grows shorter.

"And now White Feather is dying. His sons have all joined his ancestors, and soon he too shall be with them. But there is no one left, no one to recite and pass on the ancient wisdom. My people have tired of the old ways -- the great ceremonies that tell of our origins, of our emergence into the Fourth World, are almost all abandoned, forgotten, yet even this has been foretold. The time grows short.

"My people await Pahana, the lost White Brother, [from the stars] as do all our brothers in the land. He will not be like the white men we know now, who are cruel and greedy. we were told of their coming long ago. But still we await Pahana.

"He will bring with him the symbols, and the missing piece of that sacred tablet now kept by the elders, given to him when he left, that shall identify him as our True White Brother.

"The Fourth World shall end soon, and the Fifth World will begin. This the elders everywhere know. The Signs over many years have been fulfilled, and so few are left.

"This is the First Sign: We are told of the coming of the white-skinned men, like Pahana, but not living like Pahana men who took the land that was not theirs. And men who struck their enemies with thunder.

"This is the Second Sign: Our lands will see the coming of spinning wheels filled with voices. In his youth, my father saw this prophecy come true with his eyes -- the white men bringing their families in wagons across the prairies."

"This is the Third Sign: A strange beast like a buffalo but with great long horns, will overrun the land in large numbers. These White Feather saw with his eyes -- the coming of the white men's cattle."

"This is the Fourth Sign: The land will be crossed by snakes of iron."

"This is the Fifth Sign: The land shall be criss-crossed by a giant spider's web."

"This is the Sixth sign: The land shall be criss-crossed with rivers of stone that make pictures in the sun."

"This is the Seventh Sign: You will hear of the sea turning black, and many living things dying because of it."

"This is the Eight Sign: You will see many youth, who wear their hair long like my people, come and join the tribal nations, to learn their ways and wisdom.

"And this is the Ninth and Last Sign: You will hear of a dwelling-place in the heavens, above the earth, that shall fall with a great crash. It will appear as a blue star. Very soon after this, the ceremonies of my people will cease.

"These are the Signs that great destruction is coming. The world shall rock to and fro. The white man will battle against other people in other lands -- with those who possessed the first light of wisdom. There will be many columns of smoke and fire such as White Feather has seen the white man make in the deserts not far from here. Only those which come will cause disease and a great dying. Many of my people, understanding the prophecies, shall be safe. Those who stay and live in the places of my people also shall be safe. Then there will be much to rebuild. And soon -- very soon afterward -- Pahana will return. He shall bring with him the dawn of the Fifth World. He shall plant the seeds of his wisdom in their hearts. Even now the seeds are being planted. These shall smooth the way to the Emergence into the Fifth World.

"But White Feather shall not see it. I am old and dying. You -- perhaps will see it. In time, in time..."

The old Indian fell silent. They had arrived at his destination, and Reverend David Young stopped to let him out of the car. They never met again. Reverend Young died in 1976, so he did not live to see the further fulfillment of this remarkable prophecy.

The signs are interpreted as follows: The First Sign is of guns. The Second Sign is of the pioneers' covered wagons. The Third Sign is of longhorn cattle. The Fourth Sign describes the railroad tracks. The Fifth Sign is a clear image of our electric power and telephone lines. The Sixth Sign describes concrete highways and their mirage-producing effects. The Seventh Sign foretells of oil spills in the ocean. The Eighth Sign clearly indicates the "Hippy Movement" of the 1960s. The Ninth Sign was the U.S. Space Station Skylab, which fell to Earth in 1979. According to Australian eye-witnesses, it appeared to be burning blue.

Another Hopi prophecy warns that nothing should be brought back from the Moon -- obviously anticipating the Apollo 11 mission that returned with samples of lunar basalt. It this was done, the Hopi warned, the balance of natural and universal laws and forces would be disturbed, resulting in earthquakes, severe changes in weather patterns, and social unrest. All these things are happening today, though of course not necessarily because of Moon rocks.

The Hopi also predicted that when the "heart" of the Hopi land trust is dug up, great disturbances will develop in the balance of nature, for the Hopi holy land is the microcosmic image of the entire planet; any violations of nature in the Four Corners region will be reflected and amplified all over the Earth.

In 1959, a six-man delegation of traditional Hopi leaders led by the late spiritual leader, Dan Katchongva, traveled to the United Nations Building in New York to fulfill a sacred mission in accordance with ancient Hopi instructions. Because of their prophetic knowledge, the Hopi leaders felt it was time to go east to the edge of their motherland, where "a house of mica" [The United Nations building] would stand at this time, where Great Leaders from many lands would be gathered to help any people who are in trouble."

They were to go when the motherland of the Hopi and other Indian brothers were about to be taken away from them and their way of life was in danger of being completely destroyed by evil ones among the White Men and by some other Indian brothers who were influenced by the White Race. This is a clear and present danger: the betrayal of Indian-U.S.A. treaties, land sales, and coal and uranium mining are destroying the Hopi land and its people -- and all other peoples and lands, in eventual effect...

According to prophecy, at least one, two or three leaders or nations would hear and understand the Hopi warnings, as "It is told that they too should know these ancient instructions". Upon hearing the message of the Hopi, they would act immediately to correct many wrongs being done to the chosen race -- the Red Man who was granted permission to hold in trust all land and life for the Great Spirit. This prophecy would seem to have failed. Hopi prophecy also declares that the doors of the "Glass House" would be closed to them. This was the case at first, though they have delivered their message to the United Nations Assembly since then:

"When the Great Leaders in the Glass House refuse to open the door to you when you stand before it that day, [Repeated, again in 1993] do not be discouraged or turn about on the path you walk, but take courage, determination, and be of great rejoicing in your hearts, for on that day the White Race who are on your land with you have cut themselves from you and thereon lead themselves to the Greatest Punishment at the Day of Purification. Many shall be destroyed for their sins and evil ways. The Great Spirit has decreed it and no one can stop it, change it, or add anything to it. It shall be fulfilled!"

On August 7, 1970, a spectacular UFO sighting was witnessed by dozens of people and photographed by Chuck Roberts of the Prescott (Arizona)"Courier". This sighting occurred after a "UFO calling" by Paul Solem and several Hopi Indians. This sighting was interpreted by some Hopis as being a partial fulfillment of a certain Hopi prophecy given by the Great Spirit Maasau and inscribed on Second Mesa, warning of the coming of Purification Day, when the true Hopi will be flown to other planets in "ships without wings."

Hopi prophecy also tells us that there will be a mass migration of Indians northward from Mexico and Central and South America. The migration will be led by a 130-year old Indian named Etchata Etchana. The movement will come after the huge fire and explosion that will herald the advent of the True White Brother.

According to Hopi belief, the survivors of the Great Deluge thousands of years ago split up into four groups that moved north, south, east and west. Only one group completed their journey -- to the North Pole and back -- under the guidance of a brilliant "star" in which the Great Spirit Maasau traveled. When he landed, he drew a petroglyph on Second Mesa, showing a maiden (with the traditional "butterfly" hair arrangement) riding in a wingless, dome-shaped craft. The petroglyph signified the coming Day of Purification when the true Hopi will fly to other planets in "ships without wings."

The prophecy also warns that there will be three divisions among the Hopi The first division was in 1906 between the Traditionalists and the Modernists. The Traditionalists were forced to leave Oraibi and move to Hotevilla. The second division took place in the wake of the spectacular appearance of UFOs in August, 1970.
PROPHECY ROCK
Drawing pf Prophecy Rock

Near Oraibi, Arizona, there is a petroglyph known as Prophecy Rock which symbolizes many Hopi prophecies. Its interpretation is:

The large human figure on the left is the Great Spirit. The bow in his left hand represents his instructions to the Hopi to lay down their weapons. The vertical line to the right of the Great Spirit is a time scale in thousands of years. The point at which the great Spirit touches the line is the time of his return.

The "life path" established by the Great Spirit divides into the lower, narrow path of continuous Life in harmony with nature and the wide upper road of white man's scientific achievements. The bar between the paths, above the cross, is the coming of white men; the Cross is that of Christianity. The circle below the cross represents the continuous Path of Life.

The four small human figures on the upper road represent, on one level, the past three worlds and the present; on another level, the figures indicate that some of the Hopi will travel the white man's path, having been seduced by its glamour.

The two circles on the lower Path of Life are the "great shaking of the earth" (World Wars One and Two). The swastika in the sun and the Celtic cross represent the two helpers of Pahana, the True White Brother.

The short line that returns to the straight Path of Life is the last chance for people to turn back to nature before the upper road disintegrates and dissipates. The small circle above the Path of Life, after the last chance, is the Great Purification, after which corn will grow in abundance again when the Great Spirit returns. And the Path of Life continues forever...

The Hopi shield in the lower right corner symbolizes the Earth and the Four-Corners area where the Hopi have been reserved. The arms of the cross also represent the four directions in which they migrated according to the instructions of the Great Spirit.

The dots represent the four colors of Hopi corn, and the four racial colors of humanity.

[omnirook]

As I see it, no religion "dies". Rather, religions are "killed" and replaced by other religions. And I don't see any rivals to Christianity or Islam on the horizon.

Your "mummy" still has a live Boris Karloff shambling inside of it.

I'm fairly certain that the neither the Flamen Dialis nor the Flamen Martialis nor the Flamen Quirinalis could see a rival to the state religion of Rome at the end of the 3rd Century CAD - yet, at the beginning of the 4th Century CAD, the Pontifex Maximus imposed a new religion ... It takes time - sadly. But the world's monotheistic religions - as they are - were shot right between the eyes when Darwin published. Unfortunately for humanity's sake, "creatures" much stupider than any that nature ever put forth can function for a long time minus their "brains." But a long time is not forever. The last-ditch efforts of the fundamentalists to keep the faith are just that - last ditch. The dawn of the age when humanity will at least not put faith into a collection of fairy tales cannot be stopped. "God" must keep retreating, further and further into the abstract. From there, perhaps nothing will dislodge him - but, there, he will be irrelevant, so what does it matter?

[omnirook]

What happens if (crazy thought) their meddling doesn't bring about the End Days. Then what do they say, even after they've purposely fulfilled all the requirements for Christ's return and Christ hasn't returned?
Don't you know? They shrivel up, dry out, and blow away - just like all the cults that were waiting for the Crack of Doom as the clock struck midnight on 1 January, 2000 - not the right year, of course, the new millennium did not begin until 1 January, 2001, but, in a world where even the then President of the United States catered to mass stupidity by calling 2000 the start of the new millennium, what could you expect? The millennialists who had had the date right from the start joined their more ignorant fellows in oblivion as the clock struck twelve on 1 January, 2001.

[Heleuiski]

I'm fairly certain that the neither the Flamen Dialis nor the Flamen Martialis nor the Flamen Quirinalis could see a rival to the state religion of Rome at the end of the 3rd Century CAD - yet, at the beginning of the 4th Century CAD, the Pontifex Maximus imposed a new religion ... It takes time - sadly. But the world's monotheistic religions - as they are - were shot right between the eyes when Darwin published. Unfortunately for humanity's sake, "creatures" much stupider than any that nature ever put forth can function for a long time minus their "brains." But a long time is not forever. The last-ditch efforts of the fundamentalists to keep the faith are just that - last ditch. The dawn of the age when humanity will at least not put faith into a collection of fairy tales cannot be stopped. "God" must keep retreating, further and further into the abstract. From there, perhaps nothing will dislodge him - but, there, he will be irrelevant, so what does it matter?


Thats where you and I differ. You see far from science disproving god.. I see god in all science, in the laws and in the beauty of the universe. However the traditional "god" of worship has been destroyed, that is correct, as Nietzsche said "Gott ist Tot". Science has proven that the world wasn't made in a week and that Eve was not made from Adam's rib. These were stories to try and explain our world. Now we have better and more truthful stories. These stories are still wondrous and amazing though.

[omnirook]

I'm not sure... Christianity is almost dead in the UK yes.. but in the States? And Islam in the world... not as dead as Christianity.

Following a religious doctrine blindly, it's dangerous.

EDIT:- You are right the Pope talks crap, if he endorsed contraception in Africa we might not have the disgusting state we have of AIDS there now.

Yes, it is dangerous - to those who do it and to those whom they victimize, I admit. However, I stand by my assertion. The monotheistic religions are dead, quite dead, and because they made the mistake that none of the polytheistic religions ever made - they insisted upon their being literal truth. Already, in the last 150 years, Christianity has had to do a great deal of compromising. The last pope even had to admit that "Evolution is not just a theory; it is a fact." ... I expect little from Benedict XVI - he was chosen as a stop-gap: he is old and not likely to reign for long, but he is white and conservative, the 2 main things that the Church was looking for. But the men who chose him are also old and white - in a church where being white has long since been in the minority ... The RCC isn't the problem. The Old Lady of Rome has long shown herself amenable to compromise and change. It's the fundamentalists who are the worry - but I find it hard to worry too much about people who spend millions every year on finding Noah's Ark.

[Heleuiski]

because they made the mistake that none of the polytheistic religions ever made - they insisted upon their being literal truth.

Agreed. Why can't these quaint stories be seen for what they are? Metaphors and faeirie stories, myths and legends, embellished and bastardised down the centuries?

[omnirook]

Thats where you and I differ. You see far from science disproving god.. I see god in all science, in the laws and in the beauty of the universe. However the traditional "god" of worship has been destroyed, that is correct, as Nietzsche said "Gott ist Tot". Science has proven that the world wasn't made in a week and that Eve was not made from Adam's rib. These were stories to try and explain our world. Now we have better and more truthful stories. These stories are still wondrous and amazing though.

I don't have a problem w/people who find God in nature. At least finding God there makes sense, is logical. People such as yourself are not busy trying to conquer one bit of nonsense w/another bit of nonsense - Christianity/Islam.
People who posit that the Universe as it is is God's "playground" are not torturers, mass murderers, emotionally crippled mental defectives.

[Heleuiski]

I don't have a problem w/people who find God in nature. At least finding God there makes sense, is logical. People such as yourself are not busy trying to conquer one bit of nonsense w/another bit of nonsense - Christianity/Islam.
People who posit that the Universe as it is is God's "playground" are not torturers, mass murderers, emotionally crippled mental defectives.

Thank you for the compliment.

[Ferrus]

Thats where you and I differ. You see far from science disproving god.. I see god in all science, in the laws and in the beauty of the universe. However the traditional "god" of worship has been destroyed, that is correct, as Nietzsche said "Gott ist Tot". Science has proven that the world wasn't made in a week and that Eve was not made from Adam's rib. These were stories to try and explain our world. Now we have better and more truthful stories. These stories are still wondrous and amazing though.
God may well exist as a first cause or as a force extrinsic to the confines of the universe. It is impossible for one to state with any accuracy whether this is so because of our limited rational ability. What I am now sure of though is that God is irrelevant for everyday existence whilst inside the universe - were he not an irrelevancy make his prescence rather more conspicuous.

[cafe]

Don't you know? They shrivel up, dry out, and blow away - just like all the cults that were waiting for the Crack of Doom as the clock struck midnight on 1 January, 2000
Maybe, but not anytime real soon. As an Evangelical, I can see that some of the writers of the Bible clearly expected Christ to return in their lifetime, so from the perspective of a Bible-thumper, we are still waiting. As far as we know, Christ might not return for another couple thousand years. There was a book circulating in the 1980s that proved Christ would return in 1988. A lot of people really thought he would. Some people I knew were kind of thinking he would. I don't know anyone who has stopped believing in the Rapture of the Church over that book. Don has a copy in his library that he keeps as a sort of curiosity.

My own stance on the End Times is that we can't know when that time will be. Jesus said plainly that even he doesn't know when it will be. I have never seen anything in scripture that encourages any actions on the believer's part solely for the purpose of hastening the return of Christ. From my reading of the relevant passages, the Left Behind scenario kind of fits, but I'm not betting money on it by any means.

As far as world events, I watch them with some interest at times. Some folks were really going nuts over the recent disturbance between Syria and Israel. I didn't think it was a conflict of Biblical proportions. It had the potential to develop into such, but I didn't think the powers that be were crazy enough to risk annihilating themselves. I want Israel to be safe at at peace, but I don't think it's okay for them to abuse Palistinians. They are not supposed to mistreat "the stranger or the alien." It's against their own Scriptures to do so.

I don't actively do anything to support Israel at this point and I'm over voting for the Republicans. From my perspective, the folks that get voted into office don't actually carry out their promises to the Religious Right that helped get them into office. They give lip service, but they rarely do anything other than what benefits the Fiscal Conservatives and the Big Corporations. From my perspective, they are only playing the Religious Right. You say the right buzz words and they will show up in droves because they genuinely believe it is the right thing, the moral thing, to do.

Take abortion, for instance. It's in the interest of the Fiscal Conservatives that it stay legal. They don't want poor people having babies they can't afford. That means more welfare and they begrudge every penny they pay in taxes. The politicians will spew rhetoric about abortion, but they will never risk it's actually being made illegal. Myself, I think abortion is terribly wrong. I don't think it should be legal. But I don't think making it illegal will stop it or even reduce it by much, and that's the real goal. It would be better to improve things for mothers so they don't feel forced to abort for financial reasons. Personally, I'm over being Walmart and the likes b*tch because of my sincerely held religious beliefs. Maybe that makes me a bad Evangelical, but I think I can live with that.

[C.J.Woolf]

I'm fairly certain that the neither the Flamen Dialis nor the Flamen Martialis nor the Flamen Quirinalis could see a rival to the state religion of Rome at the end of the 3rd Century CAD - yet, at the beginning of the 4th Century CAD, the Pontifex Maximus imposed a new religion ... It takes time - sadly. But the world's monotheistic religions - as they are - were shot right between the eyes when Darwin published. Unfortunately for humanity's sake, "creatures" much stupider than any that nature ever put forth can function for a long time minus their "brains." But a long time is not forever. The last-ditch efforts of the fundamentalists to keep the faith are just that - last ditch. The dawn of the age when humanity will at least not put faith into a collection of fairy tales cannot be stopped. "God" must keep retreating, further and further into the abstract. From there, perhaps nothing will dislodge him - but, there, he will be irrelevant, so what does it matter?
I'd love to see "God" made irrelevant. However...

Darwin shot a big hole in Judeo-Christian mythology, but then so did Galileo, Copernicus, etc. Recent science is finding that sprituality is innate to the human brain -- most people need to believe in something. Science as a spiritual meme is at a disadvantage vs. religion because religion is more comforting (and for other reasons I won't go into right now). That's why I think a religion will only be replaced by another religion.

[In...TP]

Red, blue, east,west, religion,agnostic, let's debate our foundation.

[PenguinHunter]

I'd love to see "God" made irrelevant.

Very well,

http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?p=418354&posted=1#post418354

[rainfall]

I have no idea what crazy crap this thread is about, but I know when the world was doomed. It was at exact moment I have recieved physics, mathematics, biology and chemistry books. Buh bye, world.

[Heleuiski]

Red, blue, east,west, religion,agnostic, let's debate our foundation.

OK lets debate it...

what is our foundation?

[macr0]

Obligatory P&T Link:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3340629351038859696

[Heleuiski]

Obligatory P&T Link:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3340629351038859696

P&T think everything is bullshit.
I would love to see what they hold dear.

[LongSilence]

So, did anyone actually watch the television show in question?

[Heleuiski]

So, did anyone actually watch the television show in question?

Yes I did.

[LongSilence]

And..?

What was it like?

[Heleuiski]

OK, it was quite scary how much the neo christians have influence on Bush.
Thats apparently why the roadmap to peace was ripped up, because peace is not prophesised in relevation.

Weirdness.

[Heleuiski]

I found this website:-

http://www.raptureready.com/

[wranglertj]

OK, it was quite scary how much the neo christians have influence on Bush.
Thats apparently why the roadmap to peace was ripped up, because peace is not prophesised in relevation.

Weirdness.

Maybe not as weird as you think. And, I'm willing to wager, much more pervasive than you think. More on this in another essay, written a couple of years ago, by Joe Bageant:

http://www.joebageant.com/joe/2004/05/the_covert_king.html

[macr0]

P&T think everything is bullshit.
I would love to see what they hold dear.

Human rights, libertarianism, and humanism. In other words, everything I hold dear too :)

[Heleuiski]

libertarianism,

How come it's so hip right now to be a libertarian in the states?

[macr0]

How come it's so hip right now to be a libertarian in the states?

I don't know. I'm not hip.

All I know is that I don't want Uncle Sam all up in my grill, G.

[Heleuiski]

I don't know. I'm not hip.

All I know is that I don't want Uncle Sam all up in my grill, G.

Are ya'll sic of the elephant and donkeys?

[macr0]

Are ya'll sic of the elephant and donkeys?

The elephants are on some weird religious crusade and the donkeys just want me to not offend anyone and waste even more money.

[Heleuiski]

The elephants are on some weird religious crusade and the donkeys just want me to not offend anyone and waste even more money.

That's a yes then.

:devil:

[Gruffy Bear]

Some additional food for thought on the End Times from Joe Bageant:

http://www.joebageant.com/joe/2005/12/what_the_left_b.html

M.

Holy mental masturbation, Batman!

Everyone is I disagree with is evil and a nitwit! 70% of "them" are illiterate. Everyone smart agrees with me.

Man, I'll have to take "making up statistics on the fly 301" so I can write like that too.

Both sides play the game. The republicans are out to save us from the greatest threat of our time, homosexual liberal foaming at the mouth fanatics bent on persecuting God fearing Americans (and who, unchecked, will ultimately destroy America). The Democrats are out to save us from the greatest threat of our time, Fundamentalist foaming at the mouth wingnuts bent on persecuting homosexuals (and who, unchecked, will ultimately destroy America). Neither is shooting straight.

[macr0]

Holy mental masturbation, Batman!

Everyone is I disagree with is evil and a nitwit! 70% of "them" are illiterate. Everyone smart agrees with me.

Man, I'll have to take "making up statistics on the fly 301" so I can write like that too.

Both sides play the game. The republicans are out to save us from the greatest threat of our time, homosexual liberal foaming at the mouth fanatics bent on persecuting God fearing Americans (and who, unchecked, will ultimately destroy America). The Democrats are out to save us from the greatest threat of our time, Fundamentalist foaming at the mouth wingnuts bent on persecuting homosexuals (and who, unchecked, will ultimately destroy America). Neither is shooting straight.

My 7th grade English teacher made us watch "The End of the World" videos in class. Nostrodomus and the second coming and all kinds of crap. She also liked to tell us about her dead father's ghost floating over her when she was in bed.

I bet she had the whole "Left Behind" series on her night stand.

Sometimes, there just aren't enough bullets in the world.

[Purple-Silver Fox]

There are some conjectures on the net that Javier Solana is the Antichrist or his forerunner: quite amusing.

http://www.evenmore.co.uk/prophecy/antichrist.html

[Dumpy]

The Doomsday Code - On Saturday at 7pm Channel 4.

In this Channel 4 documentary Tony Robinson investigates the people with powerful political friends in the White House, who are trying to bring about the end of the world. Julia Bard reports


Sorry, I can't get by that part. Wasn't Tony Robinson Baldrick in "Blackadder?" I loved that show. Totally brilliant.

[In...TP]

OK lets debate it...

what is our foundation?

Molten rock .

[Toonia]

I find it a fascinating parallel that so many religions focus on an apocalyptic ending of the world, while humans have developed the capacity to bring it about. There is a Cold War mentality intermingled with much religious thought. The fascinating part to me, though, is that the apocalyptic thinking predates our techological ability for destruction. It makes me wonder if we instinctually knew our destructive nature and capacity to learn?

[ptGatsby]

It makes me wonder if we instinctually knew our destructive nature and capacity to learn?


Or, once humans have a belief, they unconciously work towards making it happen...

[Heleuiski]

Sorry, I can't get by that part. Wasn't Tony Robinson Baldrick in "Blackadder?" I loved that show. Totally brilliant.

Yes... I have a cunning plan!

Blackadder is truly wonderful.

[Heleuiski]

Or, once humans have a belief, they unconciously work towards making it happen...

Ah you mean like the self fulfilling prophesy?
I tend to have sympathies with this belief.

We have an Anti Christ (Bush) and an Anti Mohammed (Osama) How fucked is that?

[charred_heart]

Ah you mean like the self fulfilling prophesy?
I tend to have sympathies with this belief.

We have an Anti Christ (Bush) and an Anti Mohammed (Osama) How fucked is that?actually, muslims believe only in the anti-christ - there's no anti-mohamed. So it's all on bush :rofl:

[Heleuiski]

actually, muslims believe only in the anti-christ - there's no anti-mohamed. So it's all on bush :rofl:

Typical.

[charred_heart]

Typical.neither qualify but osama is a good candidate for the ultimate promoter of hate.

[Heleuiski]

neither qualify but osama is a good candidate for the ultimate promoter of hate.

So he has to be the Anti-Christ.
He is everything that Jesus was not.
He looks spiritual in a demonic way too...

http://www.olsza.krakow.pl/~freeze/foto/die%20osama%20bin%20laden!.jpg
>:P

[Heleuiski]

Maybe the end will come with Iran bombing the crap out of us all. A nuke attack.

[BerberElla]

Ah you mean like the self fulfilling prophesy?
I tend to have sympathies with this belief.

We have an Anti Christ (Bush) and an Anti Mohammed (Osama) How fucked is that?


Can i ask why you think Osama is an Anti mohammed?

[Heleuiski]

http://www.prophecyupdate.com/

"And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth the distress of nations, with great perplexity, over the sea and the roaring of the waves." Luke 21:25

Sister Lucia dos Santos of Fatima said in 1959 that we were already living in the end times (Revelation Chapter 13). Father Don Stefano Gobbi warned we were in the third and last period of the Antichrist -- the harvest of the Earth (Revelation Chapter 14). We are staring "tribulation" in the face.

What "signs" are imminent? Earthquakes, catastrophic weather changes, famine, wars, plagues, and of course signs in the skies (sun, moon and stars). These heavenly signs may appear as "mother nature" working overtime, or not-quite-explainable phenomena, but considered together they are signs of universal confirmation.

http://www.2012.com.au/Site.A.html

Ancient prophecies predicted it. Indigenous traditions honor it.
Changes within the Earth are affecting our sleep patterns, relationships, the ability to regulate your immune system and your perception of time. We are living a process of initiation that was demonstrated over 2,000 years ago, preparing you to accept tremendous change within your body.
That change is happening now.
SOME POSSIBLE EFFECTS OF THE CHANGES
* Migraine headaches, tiredness
* Electrical sensations in the limbs and spinal column
* Cramps in the muscular networks
* Flu like symptoms
* Intense dreams.
* The human body will become more sensitive as a result of the new vibrations.
* The resonance of Earth (Schumann Resonance) has been 7.8Hz for thousands of years. Since 1980 it has risen to over 12Hz.
This means that 16 hours now equate to a 24 hour day. Time is speeding up!
* The physical body has already begun to change. A new light body is being created.
* Our DNA is being re-programmed from the Universe (as predicted in the Mayan Prophecy).
We are going from 2 strand back to 12 strand DNA.
* Greater intuitive and healing abilities will emerge.
* Eyes will become cat like in order to adjust to the new atmosphere and light.
* All newly born children will probably be telepathic at birth.
* All plagues of the 90's, including AIDS will be gone.


MORE FUN STUFF

[Heleuiski]

Can i ask why you think Osama is an Anti mohammed?

I don't now. I think he is the Anti Christ.

[BerberElla]

* The physical body has already begun to change. A new light body is being created.
* Our DNA is being re-programmed from the Universe (as predicted in the Mayan Prophecy).
We are going from 2 strand back to 12 strand DNA.
* Greater intuitive and healing abilities will emerge.
* Eyes will become cat like in order to adjust to the new atmosphere and light.
* All newly born children will probably be telepathic at birth.
* All plagues of the 90's, including AIDS will be gone.


MORE FUN STUFF

Those sound like fun.:lol:

I always wanted to be telepathic, not sure about the cats eyes though.

EDIT: wouldn't surprise me if Osama was anti something.

[Heleuiski]

Those sound like fun.:lol:

I always wanted to be telepathic, not sure about the cats eyes though.

EDIT: wouldn't surprise me if Osama was anti something.

It's just that there's this aura about him of a holy man, but a really evil holy man, if you get what I mean.

[BerberElla]

It's just that there's this aura about him of a holy man, but a really evil holy man, if you get what I mean.

Oh yes totally, he does seem to have that aura about him. Maybe thats what evil looks like?:mellow:

[Heleuiski]

http://www.maskworld.com/pix/lenses/big/9103-katze-katzen-kontaktlinse-kontaktlinsen-contact-lenses-cat.jpg

I'm watching you...

[Heleuiski]

Oh yes totally, he does seem to have that aura about him. Maybe thats what evil looks like?:mellow:

Evil incarnate...

If evil had a face would it be him?

[BerberElla]

http://www.maskworld.com/pix/lenses/big/9103-katze-katzen-kontaktlinse-kontaktlinsen-contact-lenses-cat.jpg

I'm watching you...

:unsure: A predication that the whole world will have eyes like that? Freaky, hope its in my times.

[Heleuiski]

I don't want cats eyes but I want AIDS cured and telepathic powers.

Heh.

[Heleuiski]

Native American seers do not view this transformation with the same apocalyptic gloom and doom as do the Judaic-Christian prophets. Instead, of an end, the Native Americans believe it will be a beginning, a transition into a new and better world. Instead of a time of darkness, Native American spirituality suggests that this change will be the dawning of a new light.

http://www.acalan.com/event2012.htm

I'm down with the Hopis.