Greatest generation

[QQQ]

The generation that fought World War II is said to be the greatest generation (maybe this is just an American thing and not world-wide opinion, an interesting side question to the one I?m about to ask though. I'd love to hear comments from folks in other countries).

It?s been said that the second-best or maybe even greater generation is the generation that came from the Baby-boomer parents.

Do you agree with this assessment or not? Why?

Me? I think they?re pretty close?most folks of both generations seem to show many signs of good character, good upbringing, and moral uprightness

So again, what do you think and why?

If you don?t like this query/post?tuff...send it to purgatory

[Serotonin]

I remember Miranda Devine talking about some cycle of 4 generations that repeats itself.

Generation that fought WWII and genY: Pragmatic, conservative

born(1935-1950): poets, artists, bohemian sages

born(1950-1965): Baby boomers: materialistic, hedonistic

born(1965-late 70s): GenX, cynical, dispossessed

something like that anyway

and I believe it's a load of horseshit

[Claverhouse]

I consider the American generation that fought WWII pretty contemptible.

The Boomers were irrelevent.


Claverhouse :ph34r:

[Ferrus]

I consider the American generation that fought WWII pretty contemptible.
Still, not as bad as the Vietnam generation.

[QQQ]

I consider the American generation that fought WWII pretty contemptible.

The Boomers were irrelevent.


Claverhouse :ph34r:

Okaaay...so which generation do you think is the greatest generation?

[Claverhouse]

Okaaay...so which generation do you think is the greatest generation?

Of Americans ? None.

The whole business of America has been pretty satanic from the get-go, and Americans are never more satanic than when they are doing good.


Claverhouse :ph34r:

[QQQ]

Of Americans ? None.

The whole business of America has been pretty satanic from the get-go, and Americans are never more satanic than when they are doing good.


Claverhouse :ph34r:
perhaps...maybe we should have left the brits to the germans...that would have been "good"

[Claverhouse]

Possibly. Not that America came in to save Britain, the destruction of whose empire was one of her chief concerns, nor to save anyone from the nazis, but she came in because she was attacked by Japan, and then Hitler chivalrously declared war upon America.

Under any circumstance, all the players then committed equal atrocities upon civilians. Had America stayed out, the world now would be much the same, since history irons out most regimes in the end.


Claverhouse :ph34r:

[universal12]

[QUOTE=Claverhouse;418221]I consider the American generation that fought WWII pretty contemptible.

Thats a pretty strange thing to say about men who died fighting Nazism.not sure Americas political ethics/stance can be tied into describing the generation that helped free Europe as contemptible

at the time of WW11 america had no real foreign policy they simply didn't care. cold war,vietnam, middle eastern oil came after WW11, so how do you judge the generation as contemptible. if governmental policy plays a part in your comment?

[earwax]

Okaaay...so which generation do you think is the greatest generation?
No such thing as the "greatest generation". All generations in all eras are just people trying to muddle through the bullshit.

[QQQ]

Possibly. Not that America came in to save Britain, the destruction of whose empire was one of her chief concerns, nor to save anyone from the nazis, but she came in because she was attacked by Japan, and then Hitler chivalrously declared war upon America.

Under any circumstance, all the players then committed equal atrocities upon civilians. Had America stayed out, the world now would be much the same, since history irons out most regimes in the end.


Claverhouse :ph34r:
Not the same...you'd be dead, your parents would be dead. but the best part is your contempt would be dead...Live free and happy and always remember who saved you...no matter how your imagined circumstances fit into your world

[Claverhouse]

I consider the American generation that fought WWII pretty contemptible.

Thats a pretty strange thing to say about men who died fighting Nazism.not sure Americas political ethicals can be tied into describing the generation that helped free Europe as contemptible

WTF would I care if they, or to be more precise some of them, died fighting nazism when I consider American constitutional democracy to be as vile and evil as nazism or soviet communism ? Far more of which the latter died than any Americans, so logically our gratitude should go more to Stalin than the USA.

Around 600,000 German civilians died in the mass-bombing raids conducted by the British and the Americans, and 800,000 were seriously injured. And after the war 1.5 to 2 million Germans died in ethnic cleansing.

Following on 750,000 German civilians who died of malnutrition during our blockade of Germany during and after WWI, which helped create nazism.


Claverhouse :ph34r:

[QQQ]

WTF would I care if they, or to be more precise some of them, died fighting nazism when I consider American constitutional democracy to be as vile and evil as nazism or soviet communism ? Far more of which the latter died than any Americans, so logically our gratitude should go more to Stalin than the USA.

Around 600,000 German civilians died in the mass-bombing raids conducted by the British and the Americans, and 800,000 were seriously injured. And after the war 1.5 to 2 million Germans died in ethnic cleansing.

Following on 750,000 German civilians who died of malnutrition during our blockade of Germany during and after WWI, which helped create nazism.


Claverhouse :ph34r:
Oh, Ok clave...we see where you're coming from now...
and we all still think you're wonderful :)

[Claverhouse]

Not the same...you'd be dead, your parents would be dead. but the best part is your contempt would be dead...Live free and happy and always remember who saved you...no matter how your imagined circumstances fit into your world

You are dribbling.


Claverhouse :ph34r:

[QQQ]

You are dribbling.


Claverhouse :ph34r:
yes clav...whatever you say :)

[Serotonin]

Not the same...you'd be dead, your parents would be dead. but the best part is your contempt would be dead...Live free and happy and always remember who saved you...no matter how your imagined circumstances fit into your world

I never liked the feeling of indebtedness. The more people are in my face about how I should be "thankful" to the U.S. for defeating Japan in WWII, the more I tend to see it as pure luck that both Australia and the U.S. had a common cause. For people to demand that I include emotion into my personal assessment of history.... well, that's automatically going to make me and others sceptical and less willing to accept your simple argument. Clav's refreshing dispassion for the way nations build alliances and indebtedness is an antidote to the turgid quid pro quo that others feel, and more scarily, insist on others feeling.

[QQQ]

I never liked the feeling of indebtedness. The more people are in my face about how I should be "thankful" to the U.S. for defeating Japan in WWII, the more I tend to see it as pure luck that both Australia and the U.S. had a common cause. For people to demand that I include emotion into my personal assessment of history.... well, that's automatically going to make me and others sceptical and less willing to accept your simple argument. Clav's refreshing dispassion for the way nations build alliances and indebtedness is an antidote to the turgid quid pro quo that others feel, and more scarily, insist on others feeling.

nobody is asking anybody to be indebted or thankful to the U.S. Quite frankly I and most Americans could give a shit what foreigners think of us or me (especially Europe)...I do know this, if the U.S. were not the freedom loving country that it is...you'd be singing praises to Hitler or Allah and you?d be sending your wives out for groceries dressed in a tent...Wait and see if you don?t believe me.

[universal12]

im not really sure how to put one of them blue things round someones quotes, sorry.

claverhouse i have some understanding if a lack of knowledge for your views on the USA. but quite simply nobody has either murdered two million jews or killed six million russians except the nazis. i have no argument with you equating communism with american goverment but to throw nazis in the same hat i dont agree with. i just dont think you can describe the generation who fought by are side if only for the last two years as contemptible as there would have been many an average man who died fighting in europe. i think yours is a larger argument and has nothing to do with the 1940's man on the street in the US.

[earwax]

im not really sure how to put one of them blue things round someones quotes, sorry.
Pssst... you push that little button that says "Quote" on it. ;)

[Serotonin]

nobody is asking anybody to be indebted or thankful to the U.S.
Um, yes you were, right there, when you said:


always remember who saved you.

Dodger.


Quite frankly I and most Americans could give a shit what foreigners think of us or me (especially Europe)...I do know this, if the U.S. were not the freedom loving country that it is...you'd be singing praises to Hitler or Allah and you?d be sending your wives out for groceries dressed in a tent...Wait and see if you don?t believe me.

So you're saying that the U.S. is soon to be not as freedom loving as it currently is? Look, the jist of what you've said in that last part is that I oughta be thankful for the U.S. being the way it is, and that should be salient often in my mind. You've been completely contradictory in your post. And to boot, you've done the "I say I don't give a shit but the rest of my post says otherwise" thing. What exactly are you trying to say?

If you want to convince me you're right, you'll have to try harder.

[QQQ]

Um, yes you were, right there, when you said:



Dodger.



So you're saying that the U.S. is soon to be not as freedom loving as it currently is? Look, the jist of what you've said in that last part is that I oughta be thankful for the U.S. being the way it is, and that should be salient often in my mind. You've been completely contradictory in your post. And to boot, you've done the "I say I don't give a shit but the rest of my post says otherwise" thing. What exactly are you trying to say?

If you want to convince me you're right, you'll have to try harder.
I don't want to convince you that I'm right...I really don't care. Arguing about something as stupid as this reminds of the proverb "arguing with a fool is foolish" or something like that...but even if it wasn't a proverb...It still applies.
Again, this much I know...without the U.S. piss ass countries like UK and Australia...would be gone...you'll soon be praising ALLah...and you know I'm right about that.

[universal12]

the middle east hasn't the miltary strength to make the u.k praise allah they dont even have the military strength to fight israel. youre just being silly dont equate some piss ass war in the middle east with WW11.

[earwax]

:popcorn:

I think I smell a troll.

[universal12]

Pssst... you push that little button that says "Quote" on it. ;)


thankyou, i did that last time and it came out different

[Serotonin]

I don't want to convince you that I'm right...I really don't care. Arguing about something as stupid as this reminds of the proverb "arguing with a fool is foolish" or something like that...but even if it wasn't a proverb...It still applies.
Again, this much I know...without the U.S. piss ass countries like UK and Australia...would be gone...you'll soon be praising ALLah...and you know I'm right about that.

No need to get stroppy. You're just pissed cos' I called you out. If you really didn't care then you wouldn't be flinging insults. Your previous post shows you care, despite all the denials you can muster. Now settle down, collect your thoughts, and tell me in plain english, without using piss-ass, or snide asides, what you really mean.

[earwax]

thankyou, i did that last time and it came out different
Yeah, if you accidently screw up those HTML-like tags it can get pretty ugly. You'll get the hang of it.

[QQQ]

Um, yes you were, right there, when you said:



Dodger.



So you're saying that the U.S. is soon to be not as freedom loving as it currently is? Look, the jist of what you've said in that last part is that I oughta be thankful for the U.S. being the way it is, and that should be salient often in my mind. You've been completely contradictory in your post. And to boot, you've done the "I say I don't give a shit but the rest of my post says otherwise" thing. What exactly are you trying to say?

If you want to convince me you're right, you'll have to try harder.
P.S. as a final point...by suggesting that you or any other WWII country that was save by the U.S. in no way requires you to show indebtedness. My suggestion that you "remeber is just that....a reminder (I don't give a shit if you express appreciation or not). Fuck, you sissies can be such shrinking wimps. I don't want your praise, your appreciation, or your intolerable angst.

[QQQ]

the middle east hasn't the miltary strength to make the u.k praise allah they dont even have the military strength to fight israel. youre just being silly dont equate some piss ass war in the middle east with WW11.
I think you'll be surprised in less then 10 years

[Serotonin]

P.S. as a final point...by suggesting that you or any other WWII country that was save by the U.S. in no way requires you to show indebtedness. My suggestion that you "remeber is just that....a reminder (I don't give a shit if you express appreciation or not). Fuck, you sissies can be such shrinking wimps. I don't want your praise, your appreciation, or your intolerable angst.

If you didn't then you wouldn't have posted the reminder.

[Claverhouse]

im not really sure how to put one of them blue things round someones quotes, sorry.

claverhouse i have some understanding if a lack of knowledge for your views on the USA. but quite simply nobody has either murdered two million jews or killed six million russians except the nazis. i have no argument with you equating communism with american goverment but to throw nazis in the same hat i dont agree with. i just dont think you can describe the generation who fought by are side if only for the last two years as contemptible as there would have been many an average man who died fighting in europe. i think yours is a larger argument and has nothing to do with the 1940's man on the street in the US.

I have no understanding for your pitiful lack of knowledge regarding the rest of the world and the unimportance of America to it, or on WWII.

Quite simply, the figures of those killed by the nazis are generally estimated to be much larger than those you give, yet since there is no way of ever telling I shall not argue on that. Communism was far more vicious than nazism, and killed more Russians --- in their own country --- than the Germans ever could. And during the whole of the 20th century America, through it's rulers also had killed or brutally suppressed millions of other people --- outside the world wars --- either through direct action as in the Philippines or Vietnam, or though the imposition of regimes in opposition to ideologies disliked by American capitalist democracy.

As to the ordinary man in the street, most Russians or Germans or Brits or any of the other countries in WWII, were ordinary men in the street. The fact that one street happened to be in one particular country gives them no especial value. Regardless of their country they should all be honoured for valour; but not for their possible support of obnoxious regimes where that occurred.


Claverhouse :ph34r:

[universal12]

you wouldn't get the praise or thanks you didn't personally fight in WW11 did you?? and honest i might be suprised by future attacks and atrocity but we aren't going to be forced to praise allah. i like the hippy generation anyway

[Claverhouse]

:popcorn:

I think I smell a troll.

Yeah. This has been discussed.

Now a dead troll.


Claverhouse :ph34r:

[universal12]

I have no understanding for your pitiful lack of knowledge regarding the rest of the world and the unimportance of America to it, or on WWII.

Quite simply, the figures of those killed by the nazis are generally estimated to be much larger than those you give, yet since there is no way of ever telling I shall not argue on that. Communism was far more vicious than nazism, and killed more Russians --- in their own country than the Germans ever could. And during the whole of the 20th century America, through it's rulers also had killed or brutally suppressed millions of other people --- outside the world wars --- either through direct action as in the Philippines or Vietnam, or though the imposition of regimes in opposition to ideologies disliked by American capitalist democracy.

As to the ordinary man in the street, most Russians or Germans or Brits or any of the other countries in WWII, were ordinary men in the street. The fact that one street happened to be in one particular country gives thenm no especial value. Regardless of their country they should all be honoured for valour; but not for their possible support of obnoxious regimes where that occurred.


Claverhouse :ph34r:

sorry you misunderstood that was a polite of saying i can't be bothered to argue with an agenda which has nothing to do with the original question. especially as the topic is huge and all im saying is i simply don't think the american generation who fought in ww11 are contemptible.in regard to refering to it as pitiful, my lack of knowledge would be my appraisal anyway not yours so you really have no knowledge as to what i do or don't know as we have never discussed it

[Hustler]

Moved to The World.

Should be obvious why.

[Claverhouse]

sorry you misunderstood that was a polite of saying i can't be bothered to argue with an agenda which has nothing to do with the original question. especially as the topic is huge and all im saying is i simply don't think the american generation who fought in ww11 are contemptible. my lack of knowledge would be my appraisal anyway not yours so you really know nothing about what i do or don't know.

Why would one generation who fought under the dictates of their leaders be better than another generation ? I'm sure any die-hard old nazis who are still living believe their then generation was the greatest Germany ever had.


Claverhouse :ph34r:

[universal12]

i didn't ever say they were. i simply disagreed with you calling that generation contemptible. i never really said anything about best generation apart from saying i like the sound of the hippy generation. this is why im not debating the larger issues because they have nothing to do with my thinking or what i believe to be what he meant when he asked the question. if we were to judge every generation by past or present generations then the UK is pretty contemptible and i never thought that was the original question????

why do people have banned under their name?why are they banned?

[Claverhouse]

Not very easy: only about 80 people have ever been banned roughly from a total membership past and present of over 2000 to 2500; and the vast majority of those were trolls.

Like QQQ.


Claverhouse :ph34r:

[universal12]

and mandrigal has been banned after making 4000 posts??? sorry im just trying to understand how she/he suddenly got banned when she has made 4000 posts

[Serotonin]

and mandrigal has been banned after making 4000 posts??? sorry im just trying to understand how she/he suddenly got banned when she has made 4000 posts

One can play all kinds of hijinx with one's user profile, if one is so inclined.

[Heleuiski]

Every generation believes it invented sex and music....

Every generation believes it is the best.

To me it is merely a progression of humanity, neither better or worse.

[macr0]

Every generation believes it invented sex and music....

Every generation believes it is the best.

To me it is merely a progression of humanity, neither better or worse.

You can't leave God out such sweeping generalizations!

[QQQ]

Wow!...I'm back in from the "Banned" land...Jeez, after reading the simpleton posts of Claverhouse and Serotonin in this thread...I think I prefer being banned...

Wimps, babies, and simpletons hiding behind semantics or hiding behind moderator protection, that's what I see here (THE immature intp male persona, that's what the world sees in the likes of these types).

Argue away boys...develop your :mad: stance...I'm sure that will help you at least feel like men.

Peace and love
p.s. this goes for rainfall too. He fits quit nicely into this :mad: persona as well.

[MacGuffin]

Wow!...I'm back in from the "Banned" land...Jeez, after reading the simpleton posts of Claverhouse and Serotonin in this thread...I think I prefer being banned...
That is easily arranged.

[omnirook]

Possibly. Not that America came in to save Britain, the destruction of whose empire was one of her chief concerns, nor to save anyone from the nazis, but she came in because she was attacked by Japan, and then Hitler chivalrously declared war upon America.

Under any circumstance, all the players then committed equal atrocities upon civilians. Had America stayed out, the world now would be much the same, since history irons out most regimes in the end.


Claverhouse :ph34r:

The US was founded by a pack of rich fucks who did not want to pay fair taxes to a government that had done more than all right by them.

The Colonies could not have won a real war against Britain - that "war" was pathetic - no wonder George III never got over it. Had Parliament funded the war, had the UK not been already fighting a war (France and Spain), had there not been a large minority in Parliament who wanted to get rid of the North American Colonies, the US would never have been.

But that was not how it turned out.

The same pack of rich fucks who dragged the very reluctant Colonies into the war wrote the much-vaunted but never really critically analyzed Constitution. Yeah, laise faire was all the rage at the time (Britain eventually had its own experiments w/that particular philosophic disease turn into a bad case of Irish Potato Famine), and many of the Founders favored a philosophy which - in fine, ringing tones - expounded the virtues of freedom while - in practice - set up a paradise for the rich, but anyone who looks at the US Constitution w/eyes unclouded by patriotism cannot help but see it for the pseudo-Darwinian, Machiavellian masterpiece that it is. It was horse-shit from the start; Jefferson saw that, and that was why he insisted on the Bill of Rights - which the rulers of this country have spent the last 230 years working hard to erase.

I don't doubt that the US conspired to get the Japanese to attack - cutting off their oil supply and making their military and even economic survival impossible, so that they had to attack. The US needed out of the Depression, and a war would do that - and there were tons of money to be made out of the war, especially out of its aftermath.

The ordinary Americans who sacrificed and fought and died in WWII were good people w/good intentions. Don't confuse their leaders w/them. To do so would be a terrible mistake. And don't ever let yourself be fooled as the Americans are: the ordinary people do not, have never had, and never will have a say in what goes on in in this so-called "Land of the Free."

[QQQ]

^^^
Okay...I'll agree with most...but what's your opinion of a better government system?

[slacker]

Britain would've been wise to devolve more power to the colonies and to lower the tax burden, especially during a time of vulnerability. Taxes are as fair as your ability to enforce them.

The US was founded by a pack of rich fucks who did not want to pay fair taxes to a government that had done more than all right by them.

The US would not have lost a "real war" against North Vietnam either. The elites in the US wanted to gain great power, and being the wily folks that they were, chose the right time and place to fight the war. Logistics were completely against the side of the British - sure, they could've "won", but the cost was too high. It wasn't a bad thing that the British lost the Americas - it taught them important lessons in dealing with insurgency and allowed them to focus on building their Empire in more suitable parts of the world.


The Colonies could not have won a real war against Britain - that "war" was pathetic - no wonder George III never got over it. Had Parliament funded the war, had the UK not been already fighting a war (France and Spain), had there not be a large minority in Parliament who wanted to get rid of the North American Colonies, the US would never have been.

[C.J.Woolf]

Britain lost the American colonies for the same reason she won Canada from the French: demography. Britain settled enough people that they came to see themselves as a nation apart from Britain. France avoided this problem by restricting emigration to Canada, but when war came British Americans outnumbered French Canadians by 20 to 1.

[RottenApple]

I remember Miranda Devine talking about some cycle of 4 generations that repeats itself.

Generation that fought WWII and genY: Pragmatic, conservative

born(1935-1950): poets, artists, bohemian sages

born(1950-1965): Baby boomers: materialistic, hedonistic

born(1965-late 70s): GenX, cynical, dispossessed

something like that anyway

and I believe it's a load of horseshit

That kind of makes vague sense to me.

Except everything I've read about Gen Y does not sound pragmatic or conservative. In fact Gen Y just sounds like a more extreme version of Gen X. I can definately see a far more conservative generation evolving out of the mess we have now...but Gen Y is not it.

[omnirook]

^^^
Okay...I'll agree with most...but what's your opinion of a better government system?

I've said it before: Britain has long enjoyed the best system of government, down to and including an hereditary peerage w/seats in the House of Lords. Blair's "Lords Reform" will prove disastrous. It is essential for any working system to maintain a balance between conservative and progressive elements. The hereditary lords were a built-in conservative element that functioned as a conservative element should: able to exert influence, able to put a brake on skidding into over-ambitious "progress," but not having the power to cause stagnation ... Even re-naming various parts of the government and the bureaucracy will cause damage - Why does Britain need a "Supreme Court" when it has had a model system of justice for centuries via "the Law Lords?" That all smacks of trying to please the Continent, not trying to "Keep the Brit in Britain." ... A lot of young people are very quick to agree w/whatever would topple a system that takes into account and values age and experience - it's natural that they would - but no society that has ever catered to the young has lasted long. No insult to the young intended: it's just that they lack the experience and don't yet have a vested interest in keeping the system going. Yes, many young people in Britain have applauded Blair's various "reforms" - w/o stopping to realize that all of these changes are part and parcel of handing over national sovereignity - oh, so pleasing to the corporations who are actively conspiring to destroy nation states. America is no longer a country - does Britain wish to cease being a country?

So, to answer your question: I prefer a parliamentary system w/upper and lower houses, the former hereditary, the latter elected (the latter is to "hold the purse strings"), w/a symbolic, hereditary monarch to act as head of state, preventing prime ministers from developing a "cult of personality." I would make the monarch more powerful, though.

[omnirook]

Making the monarch more powerful would not require "reinventing the wheel" - a few simple measures, and the monarch would be more than a glittering hood ornament. I would start by freeing the monarch from economic dependence - the Civil List would not only be assured but would have built in, guaranteed, regular increases to cover the damage done by inflation. I would also return full control of honours to the sovereign - the monarch would be able to create new knights and new lords w/o the "advice" of the government. How would that help? You know nothing of human nature and the craving for recognition if you can even wonder about such a thing. Oh, yes, the monarch would also be able to "attain" honours w/o governmental advice.

There are other measures that I would take, and I would be willing to discuss them later if anyone is interested. However, right now, I am under pressure to leave for an appointment, so later ...