Ambition and INTPs

[Boo]

I was wondering if any of you feel like the whole life scenario of money+marriage+kids is hollow? I have no desire really for the next gadget to make my life better (according to the commercial) or climbing the corporate ladder so I can be paid ridiculous amounts of money. What's a life without desire or ambition?
What do you do for a living? What would you do if you could do anything you wanted?

[jittus rye]

I just want to be with a girl named Sarah, and have a good job as a writer, engineer, programmer, or something else.

I was a willow last night in a dream,
I bent down over a clear running stream,
sang me a song that I heard from above,
you kept me alive with your sweet flowing love.
Crrrazy on you.

[Groty]

What's a life without desire or ambition?


Funny you ask. I am sitting here on my sofa thinking about the exact same thing. I have no desires, ambitions, or anything else right now. I can't pinpoint anything. The only thing that keeps flashing in my mind is the typical INTP Hermit scenario. Small log cabin or something on a lake. Maybe a dog. Could this be depression? I dunno, I'm not a shrink. I'm just thinking my life is gonna continue being like the last 10 years of my life. 40-50 more years. If there is a god, I'm kicking his/her ass in the end.

What do you do for a living?


Programmer, Business Analyst, problem solver, Hindi translator(sarcasm there). I don't really know anymore.

What would you do if you could do anything you wanted?


Omniscience for a day.
Then I'd like to try being an eccentric billionaire for a while.
Then CTRL-ALT-DEL and reboot as an Ignorant Soul, to see what bliss is like.

[int]

I want money. I have a wife and a kid on the way. I love the family thing. I want another kid in about a year and a half. I am the patriarch of my home.

But it did seem hollow just a few years ago.

Not really much to explain, as I don't think I can. All I can really say is that I made the decisions I did out of my own free will (such as it is) and I have very few regrets. One of which is I wish I earned more money.

It's better than debt.

Or is that hollow?

Anyways, if I could really do what I wanted...I'd work a new job every week. From garbage man to Walmart CEO. Or maybe 2 weeks...

[Vagabond]

I just want peace.

[int]

I should probably add I don't need money for my sanity. I just want a few bucks in the bank at the end of every month to plan a future for my kids. My motivation is family, right now.

[sbw]

I have financial goals. I don't want a pile of money per se (and all the "stuff" that most people trade their money for); rather, I want to not have to work anymore. I have had a real job for approximately 5 years (I'm 24 now), and I've invested in real estate, etc. with the hope of retiring by 35. I don't wonder what I'll do then, because right now (with a job and consequent regular adult schedule) I'm happiest when I'm able to clear my schedule for an evening or weekend day and have NOTHING to do but sit/lay on my couch and bask in the happy glow of my temporary freedom. Obviously, wife and kids (the other component of your original post, boo) don't factor into this scenario as of yet.

Scott

[sbw]

P. S. that second sentence was awkward; I do in fact want a pile of money, but I want to use it to buy freedom rather than a boat and an SUV and a big house and ...

Scott

[crule81]

I agree with sbw. I remember you mentioning early retirement in your introduction thread, I believe. For me, money isn't useful solely in its ability to acquire material goods or services, but rather to avoid having to do things I do not enjoy, like work, keeping track of my finances, grocery shopping, or writing thank-you notes. The latter three hopefully can be avoided by finding a good wife. However, if I had a pile of money, I would buy several fast cars.

[SheepDog]

You can always make more money. You can never make more time.

Money (and the crap that most people buy with it) is hollow. I don't believe that marriage or family is, but that may depend on the players ;) . I point this out because your post seems to group these things into common stereotypes. Don't be common.

My wife and I have been saving more than we spend for a while, and as a result, we think about money much less than we used to. We've stopped obsessing over stuff you can buy, and focus on spending good time together. I read a lot, about all sorts of things, mostly learning something new.

If I could do anything at all, I'd live on a big plot of land (100 or so acres), and build a house and a workshop. The workshop would have metalworking tools (lathe, mill, welding, etc.) among other things. I'd dream up new contraptions, or new uses for existing technologies.

I'd probably tinker with renewable energy, and would strive for a high level of independence. We'd have a decent vegetable garden, so that all of our food didn't come at the hands of other people.

I know this is kind of vague, but that's all I can do. Although I have a direction in mind, I don't know exactly where the path will lead. So to go back to the original question, this may show a lack of ambition, or it may not. I like to think that I'm driven by something other than the typical definition of ambition, but am still motivated to do something meaningful, at least to me.

[BHZA]

I did not know what I want in the past, i do not know what I want in life now and surely wont know where I am going in the future. This depresses me a lot sometimes and I wonder sometimes whether this may be an INTP trait.

[anarchist]

I wouldn't mind having lots of money!!so that I can pursue my interests without worrying about how to support myself...but I hate the things that you have to do to earn money..it's always a trade off I guess....

[xavierd]

I don't know if I lack ambition. I think I just lack the ability to put my ambitions into motion instead of just daydreaming about it. And the reason for that is it takes so long to reach these goals that I dream up. My mind works so much faster than reality! Already I'm partners in a large IT company that spans most of Florida (my home state) and working with educators on new teaching methodologies but then I wake up and see that I'm still at my 9-5 job staring at this computer. :P

[Birdsnest]

Oh, I am naturally full of will & determination. But there isn't a bone in my body that would manipulate anyone in the process. I just don't care what anyone says, when it comes to going after something I want. I do think maybe I fear success though.

I have been without money for a long time, so I have the advantage of knowing how bad it is without money. I am glad to be able to work for it. I don't get promoted like others do, because I don't shmooze, and I'm not a local.

But I AM thankful to make money, because I know how most of my life that I wanted to make it, but without the skills could not.

I don't think of money or material as negatives, because I do put good energy into them. I could always use more money, but money isn't really what I am seeking after all. I really do seek truth over money, and to me truth is, I don't want to be on the street, so my options are to work for money and accept that limitation, and be happy with it. After all, happiness really comes from appreciating the little things in nature, in spirit, in making things shine thru work. Its not really the money, but the way you go about it that makes you happy anyway.

If I didn't have to make money, I would like a small farm near redwoods and live in a California Eichler or California Bungalow, or Victorian, somewhere on West coast and I'd grow vegetables and have chickens and cows, and I'd take up art.

[MacGuffin]

Money can't buy happiness, but it sure makes it easier.

[SheepDog]

When I trade time for money, I try to make sure I'm getting a good deal. I'll never trade ALL my time for any amount of money. Way too expensive.

[alex]

Ambitions:
- Escape mundanity, mediocrity
- Live "mindfully" -- pay attention to everything I do
- Work out a decent system of philosophy
- Maintain autonomy -- strength & knowledge for defense (for now...)
- Make a significant difference (no idea how at the moment)

After I travel a bit and learn more about life, I look forward to having a family and lots of kids. The common scenario of career + suburban life is pretty bleak but, like many others, I'd like to have a more rural and self-sufficient lifestyle.

I have no real financial concerns other than securing good health insurance. I'm quite healthy but sustaining a minor injury recently has showed me how expensive simple, but quality, medical service can be. The trick is finding a gal as frugal as myself.

[mgb]

This is great to read. I would like some money too, just enough so that I am free from societal oppression.

Really, I would just like to have enough money so I can afford to live (and build my library and DVD collections) and go to school and travel a bit.

If I could live and travel without money I probably would.

[tragula]

I think as you get older it becomes easier to chose to participate in life by making the big comitments--family. It is definitly worth it.
Personally I've gotten around the rat race by chosing to be an At Home Dad. Thinking outside the box is best.

Also I think finding your passion is key. It's easier to be ambitious about something your passionate about! For me it is Art. :)

[Jezebel]

I was wondering if any of you feel like the whole life scenario of money+marriage+kids is hollow?

Certainly not. I want all that. I think life would be boring without goals and ambition. I've never been the type that just accepted what I was given, and I would say that I'm one of the more ambitious people that I know. Ideally I'd like to be in an occupation that was something that I enjoy and earning enough money to not have to struggle with the little things anymore, a stable family situation, and even a decent sized house and all that other stuff you guys consider shallow.

[Boo]

Perhaps I was too harsh when I said "hollow". Or maybe not. It just seems like the forcefed ideal of success is everywhere and it can be tiring. Many things are tiring. If you have the ambition for the mate and kids and money, great. Have at it.
I completely agree with the time/money equation. Time to myself is growing more and more expensive. More expensive for my actual job, friends and family.
Thanks for responding.

[SensEye]

As others have alluded to, money = freedom, and is highly desireable for that alone. Of course, the catch 22 is that most of us have to work for money (i.e. sacrifice freedom) to get it.

However, I certainly want some material posessions to make me happy. As a typical INTP I spend a lot of time entertaining myself at home so I want things that will enable that.

A comfortable home, a reasonable collection of high tech entertainment gizmos (PC, associated software, home theatre, good sound system, etc., etc.). I also like to travel and that takes a bit of cash (it's harder to rough it as you get older, my backpacker/youth hostel days are over). I would like a cottage by the lake type of deal as well.

Fortunately, I am immune to rampant consumerism and any requirement for status symbols. No need for a $60K vehicle or anything like that here.

I should be able to manage all my financial goals eventually.

The family thing is a whole different matter entirely. It looks like that aspect of life has passed (or soon will pass) me by. Never really planned it that way, never really planned anything at all in this regard. It's possible I will come to regret this.

[Birdsnest]

Tragula, I went to your webpage to see your art, it is just fantastic. The Kelly Ann series is out of this world. Is that your work? Its just wonderful, so even if it isn't I enjoyed seeing it. I really enjoyed that website.

[Jezebel]

Right now I do believe I could buy happiness. I think that anyone who says you can't isn't struggling with money. Right now I'm not even concerned with buying the latest gadgets. I had to go to the doctor without health insurance and I'm still paying that off, and I need to go again but I just can't afford it. I'm not eating healthy enough, I'm cold at night, and I have to drive 45 minutes to work everyday for nearly minimum wage. I've wanted to move back near my friends/relationship, but my savings ran out and I got stuck on the other side of the country. Nearly everything I earn goes toward bills. I think it's preposterous to suggest that money wouldn't solve most of my problems right now, and I certainly don't think it's shallow to want more.

On the other hand, I don't believe that I need the career, marriage, and kids NOW. I'm still young and there are other things I want to do before marrying and settling down. I would like to go ahead and start working toward a real career, but I'm glad I took time off from school and experienced life in the real world first. "Real life" is very different from being a student and it has definetely made me more passionate about reaching my work-related goals.

[lauriep]

I have plenty of ambitions, but don't have the motivation for the follow through. I'll set these long-term goals but change my mind and move onto to something else before I finish anything. There are times that I regret this and really thought that I would be more financially independent and successful in a career at this point in life. My parents are very materialistic and tend to be embarrassed by my lack of success on that point. But when I've had the opportunity for advancement or taking an uninteresting job that pays well, it turns my stomach and I back away. Maybe I'm afraid of success - don't know. When I'm in school or working on a challenging project, regardless of the pay or title, I'm at my happiest. Now if I could just find a way to balance that whole money thing with doing what makes me happy...:blink:

Luckily my SJ husband makes sure the bills get paid. At times I wish I had his motivation and successes in order to feel on more equal footing in the relationship.

[Sackanaka]

I wish I could use this thread as proof that I'm not shallow when explaining my reason to the Pharmacy school interviewers. :/

[tragula]

Perhaps INTPs are generally less well adapted to the modern world... I see a lot of log cabin fantasies in this forum. Perhaps it used to be easier to live in a log cabin, as perhaps there were only log cabins or caves way back when.

Or maybe INTPs just peak later in life, being very big picture and meaning oriented. Am new here so am going to poke around and read old threads and see if these ideas are explored already somwhere in detail.

It's funny though how other people's ambition becomes sort of an affront. As if we couldn't also DO THAT if we were totally materialistic, narcisictic and shallow. :-)

Thanks for the praise Birdsnest!! I love a good compliment, it keeps you going as an artist when you aren't making any money! And perhaps when you are.... I wouldn't know. HA HA

[mgb]

Perhaps INTPs are generally less well adapted to the modern world... I see a lot of log cabin fantasies in this forum. Perhaps it used to be easier to live in a log cabin, as perhaps there were only log cabins or caves way back when.

Or maybe INTPs just peak later in life, being very big picture and meaning oriented. Am new here so am going to poke around and read old threads and see if these ideas are explored already somwhere in detail.

It's funny though how other people's ambition becomes sort of an affront. As if we couldn't also DO THAT if we were totally materialistic, narcisictic and shallow. :-)

Thanks for the praise Birdsnest!! I love a good compliment, it keeps you going as an artist when you aren't making any money! And perhaps when you are.... I wouldn't know. HA HA

I don't know if its the modern world. You could probably argue that modernity was invented by an INTP. Aristotle was an NT and his ideas were the highest ideal of society well into the Enlightenment. It wasn't until the bougeoisie were able to become a dominant class that their NT-conflicting ideals became important. I guess it ebbs and flows.

It might also be that INTPs are destined to be hermits and peak later in life. Or peak and never tell anyone. In some ways I think the people on this site are the most ambitious people I have *talked* to. The ambition just doesn't fit into societal norms...

[Division56]

Right now I have pretty clear ambitions.

1. Backpacking

2. Medschool

3. Get to 190lbs



Yay for simplicity.

[SheepDog]

"Things you own, end up owning you."
- Tyler Durdin

I've been broke, and there is a difference between not having enough money to provide basic needs like shelter, food, and health, vs. not having money to accumulate trinkets and status symbols. I don't think the former is so much about ambition, although when I was in that situation, I was highly motivated to rise above it, which I did. But as far as ambition above that, the motivation is not so clear.

[INTrPosr]

Good topic Boo. I expected this question to come up a couple of weeks ago, during a job interview. I really have no desires when it comes to moving up the proverbial corporate latter. In fact, I have been out of the corporate world since 1989, but am looking forward to return with my new found knowledge in....MYSELF. I just want the money to live comfortably and not live paycheck to paycheck.

[floyd]

physical health is the most important thing and that correlates most to cardiac fitness, endurance. if you always have very good health, you will always find it easy to get by. prioritizing money comes at a cost. i do think food and rent is a sensible standard for how much to value money. i don't think family is. do you really want to have kids and model the message that the point of life is to make money to support a family so then they can strive to make money and support a family (maybe even modeling that your son has to support a wife, and your daughter has to be supported and produce babies). you are living a theory of life which is - the point of existence is reproduction, that's primitive, shallow, simpleminded.

i don't think free time is a good justification for chasing money either. because free time when you get older is worth less than free time when you are younger. the brain starts declining at 20. in fact, you might make more money pursing something you are interested in the long run because your interest will sustain greater skill development.

i think one should focus on following/developing/pursuing what they are most interested in. if you end up making enough money to have a family and that makes sense to you, ok, but if your end in life is family, then you are thinking like a cockroach.

[indie]

I was wondering if any of you feel like the whole life scenario of money+marriage+kids is hollow? Yes.

A life without desire or ambition? Walking dead. Everyone has some desires or some ambitions for the future; small or big ones, we have to have them or our species would not thrive.

What do you do for a living? Currently unemployed, but a semi-recent graduate of the Master's program, so hope is not entirely snuffed out . . .yet :cry:

What would you do if you could do anything you wanted? Ah, the proverbial question returns. I'd be a writer, of moderate success, living in a cabin (with all the luxuries of modern technology, of course) on about 10 acres of forest, with a garden and creek nearby where I would catch salmon.

[floyd]

since no one chooses to be born, it makes sense that some people, especially more aware people, would find themselves without ambition. it's like handing someone something that did not ask for, it's reasonable that they might not want to do anything with it. a true will to live has to be an internal decision, and choosing to live or pursue a certain desired path is an option, it's not the only option or necessarilly the right/best option. i don't think you are very alive if you think life is an obligation/duty. within this existential reality, climbing the corporate ladder, creating a model family, is ridiculous, it's like trying to be the perfect soldier in an army you did not sign up for. i think that is why loyalty and patriotism are such issues for many people, their will to live rests on external myths. an aware person, if they decide they want to live, has to invent a life that makes sense for them.

[jyakulis]

I would say I've always had disgustingly high ambitions. When I was six all I wanted to be is an inventor, so I went into the sciences. I also have a burning desire to be a successful musician. At a low point in my life I was actually so fed up with personal relationships other than my immediate band and my family that I thought I wasn't really put here to be happy more just contribute back to the world. But I've grown up a lot since then, I would say. I will never admit that it's wrong to have high ambitions though, there's is nothing wrong with wanting to contribute or want something great for yourself, but it's a lonely way to live sometimes. And now I've thought about it I think I'd be happy with a beautiful wife that's just a good person, well, to me at least and being able to share things with her is important. And it's important that she accepts the fact that I'm weird and, well, no matter how hard I try to conform I will always be weird.
Sorry to sidetrack but have any of you ever wondered why people called you weird. I could never understand it I never dressed much differently than others just jeans and t shirt. I guess just personality wise. Anyway most people tell me I"m eccentric/weird but in a good way, whatever that means. And all my friends know I mean well even though I can be scatterbrained.
Anyway back to my current ambitions. a house in the country with no one else around. And to save up so much money through real estate and mutual funds that I can retire when I'm 40 and pursue other things the rest of my life. But ehh I'm not good with money lol I need a wife that has her act together.

[Jkrs]

The whole idea of money/economics/etc. is basically a game that moves stuff. Not very efficiently, but usually better than pure barter (1000 fruitcakes for some serious dental work, anyone?).
Using money to buy freedom seems closest to my goals right now - have job (was hired yesterday, whoo!), next step is drivers' license and inexpensive car. Then money for gas, art supplies, and a three-day weekend will see me randomly driving through the countryside, stopping to photograph or paint stuff. A few days of follwing my whims, with no human contact whatsoever.
The traditional 'American Dream' simply doesn't appeal.