The bible and god...

[Ckyzxr]

While browsing a movie forum (of all places), I found this link to a newsletter called Biblical Errancy. I found it quite interesting, I think most of you will also.

http://members.aol.com/ckbloomfld/

[Mysticforce]

Since you bring up the concept, I have a question.

If the Bible is in error then it is myth. However, myths are not understood in terms of errors or truths. Thus, the Bible must be evaluated for error under the premise that its contents are true. Yet, the Bible also contains logical impossibilities, meaning logic is not a criteria admissible to this evaluation. Ergo, it cannot be said to be logically 'in error'.

To me this reasoning sounds a little off. Can someone help me find the flaw in my logic?

[knome]

The bible is an interesting mix of histories, prophecies, possible myths, and is oft self repeating or even in conflict with itself on ideas or various points. Of course, considering the most likely sources (http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mbible1.html), this is of little surprise.

[SheepDog]

The bible was written by men. It is self-proclaimed word of god.

Where do you go from there?

[Groty]

A friend of mine sent me this(http://www.givemeananswer.org) in response to the address above. Can't look now, at work, will later.

[Arioch]

Hmm... in one of the links I saw "A concerned Pagan" asking who wrote the bible...

Why would a Pagan be concerned about who wrote the bible?

I just love it when groups go against eachothre instead of trying to improve themselves. It's the only way to improve the world!

[Mysticforce]

Yeah, Arioch I'm with you on that. Too much fighting not enough praying - or equivalent concepts. (Aside: love your sig)

On a slightly different train of thought, the Bible does seem to do what it sets out to. It is not hard to find some variant of the Christian faith represented in most Western countries. Perhaps this is why so many 'pagans' keep trying to find fault with it.

[gypseymothlee]

Why would a Pagan be concerned about who wrote the bible?

They could be studying opposing religious viewpoints. Or trying to place the context of the book based on the time frame and location of the people who wrote the various parts. Or they were just trying to start a fight.

[Arioch]

They could be studying opposing religious viewpoints. Or trying to place the context of the book based on the time frame and location of the people who wrote the various parts. Or they were just trying to start a fight.

Personally I think they were defining themselves by contrasting their... religion against against their "fathers" religion. I should ponder this and wonder if it speaks of a immature mindset. Since their suppose to have nothing to do with eachother [stops himself from launching in a rant]

[Groty]

Or possibly a need to classify himself while searching for his beliefs.

Which could be construed as spiritually immature.

[Edmond Zedo]

The Bible exists. God doesn't.

[Lucas]

The Bible exists. God doesn't.

God exists in the minds of the believers. Beyond that the existence of god is a moot question. It can't be confirmed or denied.

[Edmond Zedo]

God exists in the minds of the believers. Beyond that the existence of god is a moot question. It can't be confirmed or denied.

Pretty far from moot, if you don't mind me saying. Society is affected by actions. Actions are based on belief. This belief is based on H-O-K-U-M. Of course I know that anything is possible, but to be so arrogant in this age as to assume one's myth is law...Infuriating.

[Pierce]

The Bible is a remarkable document and the spirituality that undergirds it is what gives it life. Many brilliant men and women over the ages have tried to ponder its depths and reconcile its many apparent paradoxes. I've personally know men of firm mind and rational thought begin a quest to disprove and discredit the Bible and in the end embrace it. And I've know men whom I consider great who have spent their lives searching out the jewels of truth hidden in its passages, like miners searching for the mother lode, always finding enough to keep them searching. Many who rail against the Bible strike me as so many Ahabs raging against the mysterious white whale, Moby Dick. Never will the arms or reason wrap themselves around the Bible and embrace it -- it's essence is spiritual, and profoundly beyond the probe of rational dissection -- at least from a frontal attack. Curiously though, the Bible may be grasped by faith (which is kin to intuition) and then reason employed to great enjoyment and satisfaction searhing it out. So who wrote the Bible? I think it is far too clever to ascribe to men, and too rough hewn to ascribe soley to God, therefore it is the product of both. And in the mysterious ways of God, it is perfect in its "imperfection."

[Edmond Zedo]

I've personally known men of soft mind and irrational thought who believe in fairy tales. If your goal is happiness, and in search of it you remove rationality from your rationale, you're beyond the ability to debate. Don't.

[antireconciler]

Other people's Word of God is simply no fun. Scriptures can only be read and understood to once you already understand what they say. They only serve to give you different angles to look at the exact same thing. They broaden much, deepen little.


I've personally known men of soft mind and irrational thought who believe in fairy tales. If your goal is happiness, and in search of it you remove rationality from your rationale, you're beyond the ability to debate. Don't.

That is what you know lies along that path, yet I dare you to walk it just to actually make sure. Perhaps that is an affront to holy reason. Dare to sin. I dare you!

[Edmond Zedo]

I promise.

If I should suffer a fall from great height, literally, and smash my brains, I may lose this razor of a mind and find no objections to the wish for that greater than life on Earth, quite because I am unable to. But if I should stumble upon this forum in my idiocy, shall I trust my former self or some religion I've found in the interim?...

And in this moment of disassociation, belief has become more plain to me than ever before (Since most brains are already figuratively smashed). It's a question of trust. Trust religion, i.e. the bible, backed by emotional drive, or trust an academian you don't understand. That's easy.

[Pierce]

Actually, I do believe in fairy tales... or what lies behind them. That's the whole point of the "n" in intp. Sensory data + reason may seem razor sharp, but intuition and imagination operate in a different dimension entirely, both more real and less defined than reason allows. But there's the rub... if your reason rules your imagination, you will simply not see what you cannot comprehend. On the other hand, if your imagination rules your reason, you are free to dissect and evaluate your own phantasmagoric observations. Just because you didn't see it doesn't mean it wasn't there.

[Sackanaka]

Someone's gonna pull up zen sooner or later, the way this topic is going.

Anyway, was wondering if anyone had already discussed the terms exegesis, hermeneutics and epikeia. Despite "popular" belief, the Catholic church does have a way to keep its mind open to change. Vatican II = evidence :D

[Edmond Zedo]

That's the whole point of the "n" in intp. Sensory data + reason may seem razor sharp, but intuition and imagination operate in a different dimension entirely, both more real and less defined than reason allows
For the record, I'm N, and I'd bet Nietsche was too. I prefer philosophy to mythology, because there is no fundamental wrong haunting it.

[SheepDog]

Someone's gonna pull up zen sooner or later, the way this topic is going.
Funny, I was thinking the same thing.

... Despite "popular" belief, the Catholic church does have a way to keep its mind open to change. Vatican II = evidence :D
If only Vatican II would spread to the churches and be actually applied...

[Edmond Zedo]

Trust yourself, or trust some biblical figure you don't understand. You see your integrity? You are already farther along a "religious" path than some "Christians". Religion isn't about following the Bible, it's about your own integrity.

You're confusing religion with morality and philosophy (Which I promote on occasion). Religion requires belief in the supernatural.

[Johnny]

You're confusing religion with morality and philosophy (Which I promote on occasion). Religion requires belief in the supernatural.Perhaps. My understanding of religion vs. philosophy is that a way of life is prescribed to support and endorse the metaphysical propositions being offered, while philosophy doesn't require such actions.

In other words, religion's about putting your money where your mouth is. At any rate, what harm does it do to a person to embrace faith in the supernatural? There is this pervasive notion that faith in the supernatural requires some sacrifice of intellect and self respect.

Can those who do not believe in the supernatural damn others to hell or something?

[Ckyzxr]

Can those who do not believe in the supernatural damn others to hell or something?
I struggle daily not to use this leverage to manipulate.



As N's we use sort of a superhuman trait to interact with reality and other people but INTP's as a group tend to dismiss the supernatural as bunk. Since I'm not as familiar with typing as some others, can anyone explain this apparent contradiction?

[Johnny]

As N's we use sort of a superhuman trait to interact with reality and other people but INTP's as a group tend to dismiss the supernatural as bunk. Since I'm not as familiar with typing as some others, can anyone explain this apparent contradiction?Interesting. I have never seen my N as a superhuman trait. For me, the N exists because I wasn't smart enough to keep facts and memories straight...and so I had to rely on analogies and similar patterns to "log" in the knowledge I have, sort of like MP3 - less memory required and lower fidelity as a compromise.

[SheepDog]

There are many ways to interpret the word "intuition" the one that implies ability to 'see' beyond the senses isn't really what MBTI has in mind. To a very literal, very strong Sensor, it might appear to be, however.

I dated a woman some time ago who I told I could read her mind. Really, I was just good at putting all the clues together. She never really understood how I could tell her things she was thinking without her having expressed them so directly. Turns out she was a strong S (ESFJ in fact), which ultimately led to our breakup.

[Lucas]

Pretty far from moot, if you don't mind me saying. Society is affected by actions. Actions are based on belief. This belief is based on H-O-K-U-M. Of course I know that anything is possible, but to be so arrogant in this age as to assume one's myth is law...Infuriating.


No, it is a moot question. Moot doesn't mean insignificant.

Moot- adj: Open to argument or debate

[Edmond Zedo]

No, it is a moot question. Moot doesn't mean insignificant.

Moot- adj: Open to argument or debate
Then I think we should continue to argue indefinitely.

"Belief is the way...The way of the innocent. And when I say innocent...I should say naive."--Depeche Mode

[Johnny]

Then I think we should continue to argue indefinitely.

"Belief is the way...The way of the innocent. And when I say innocent...I should say naive."--Depeche ModeAmen...LOL

[Sackanaka]

I'm taking a course on Christian theology right now; we are covering the Gospel of Thomas. Unlike the other previous gospels, Thomas is a collection of Jesus' sayings rather than stories.
I automatically recognized its pattern: it was like reading Zen!
for example:
3. Jesus said, "If the ones who lead you say, 'there is the kingdom, in heaven,' then the birds of heaven shall go before you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish shall go before you. Rather, the kingdom is within you and outside you. If you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will know that you are Sons of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you are in poverty and you are poverty."

Very Zen/Tao-ish :ph34r:

Which led me to think,
1) Could taoism have spread to Europe and incorporated into Christianity?
2) This type of theological approach appeals to me moreso than the other gospels' methods. Could it be that, coincidentally or intentionally, Christianity was written in different styles (different gospels and books) to appeal to a diverse majority of the population? Tricky!

[Miss Anthropic]

The bible was written by men. It is self-proclaimed word of god.

Where do you go from there?
Yep! Written by men, and used time and time again through interpretation to gain and hold power over others...each other, but most frequently over women. Since it is so open to interpretation it is inherently flawed as a tool of guidence....whether it is fiction or the "word of GOD"