Islam and Rape

[charred_heart]

In regards to this post: http://forums.intpcentral.com/showpost.php?p=422530&postcount=161

I could not get the relevant background on these Quranic verses yet, but I found a website that illustrates how rape is seen in Islam.
http://www.muslimaccess.com/articles/Women/rape_in_islam.asp


Islamic legal scholars interpret rape as a crime in the category of Hiraba. In ?Fiqh-us-Sunnah?, hiraba is described as: ?a single person or group of people causing public disruption, killing, forcibly taking property or money, attacking or raping women (hatk al ?arad), killing cattle, or disrupting agriculture.?
The famous jurist, Ibn Hazm, had the widest definition of hiraba, defining a hiraba offender as: ?One who puts people in fear on the road, whether or not with a weapon, at night or day, in urban areas or in open spaces, in the palace of a caliph or a mosque, with or without accomplices, in the desert or in the village, in a large or small city, with one or more people? making people fear that they?ll be killed, or have money taken, or be raped (hatk al ?arad)? whether the attackers are one or many."
Al-Dasuqi held that if a person forced a woman to have sex, his actions would be deemed as committing hiraba. In addition, the Maliki judge Ibn ?Arabi, relates a story in which a group was attacked and a woman in their party was raped. Responding to the argument that the crime did not constitute hiraba because no money was taken and no weapons used, Ibn ?Arabi replied indignantly that "hiraba with the private parts" is much worse than hiraba involving the taking of money, and that anyone would rather be subjected to the latter than the former.


The crime of rape is classified not as a subcategory of ?zina? (consensual adultery), but rather as a separate crime of violence under hiraba. This classification is logical, as the "taking" is of the victim?s property (the rape victim?s sexual autonomy) by force. In Islam, sexual autonomy and pleasure is a fundamental right for both women and men (Ghaz?l?); taking by force someone?s right to control the sexual activity of one?s body is thus a form of hiraba.


It cites these quranic verses, incidents during and shortly after the prophet Mohamed's death as the basis for Islam's position on rape:

Relevant verses from the Quran:
S?rah an N?s 4.119
'O you who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will...'
S?rah an N?r 24.33
'... And do not, in order to gain some of the fleeting pleasures of this worldly life, coerce your slave women into whoredom if they are desirous of marriage, and if anyone should coerce them, then, verily, after they have been compelled (to submit in their helplessness), God will be much forgiving, a dispenser of grace (to them).
During the time of the Prophet (saw) punishment was inflicted on the rapist on the solitary evidence of the woman who was raped by him. Wa'il ibn Hujr reports of an incident when a woman was raped. Later, when some people came by, she identified and accused the man of raping her. They seized him and brought him to Allah's messenger, who said to the woman, "Go away, for All?h has forgiven you," but of the man who had raped her, he said, "Stone him to death." (Tirmidhi and Abu Dawud)
During the time when Umar (raa) was the Khalifah, a woman accused his son Abu Shahmah of raping her; she brought the infant borne of this incident with her to the mosque and publicly spoke about what had happened. Umar (raa) asked his son who acknowledged committing the crime and was duly punished right there and then. There was no punishment given to the woman. (Rauf)


From the language, it is obvious that this is not a liberal or a psuedo-pop Islamic website. I used it to illustrate that conservative muslims consider rape a crime. The verses Stoned_Rider mentioned obviously pose a problem if taken literally. The literal meaning of the verses would endorse the kidnapping or capture of women. That's why I stress that it is important to provide the context in which the verse was revealed.

[Nemesis]

Uhhhh oh.

[Stoned_Rider]

I will ask Madrigal to ask you to stop bullying me already! YOU'RE SUCH A MEAN MONSTER! :boohoo:


Raping slaves or prisoners of war

The Quranic verses that I quoted here (http://forums.intpcentral.com/showpost.php?p=422530&postcount=161) make it fairly clear that a Muslim is allowed to have sexual intercourse with his slaves and war captives. This is unanimously agreed upon by Muslim scholars.


Islam allows a man to have intercourse with his slave woman, whether he has a wife or wives or he is not married.

Our Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) also did that, as did the Sahaabah, the righteous and the scholars. The scholars are unanimously agreed on that and it is not permissible for anyone to regard it as haraam or to forbid it. Whoever regards that as haraam (forbidden) is a sinner who is going against the consensus of the scholars.

The wife has no right to object to her husband owning female slaves or to his having intercourse with them.

Islam Q&A (http://islamqa.com/index.php?ref=10382&ln=eng&txt=intercourse%20slave%20woman)

The question now is whether it is permitted to rape them or not. Of course, there is no definition of rape in the Quran or the Hadith. In fact the Quran totally ignores the subject of rape and does not make even a single reference to it. So obviously there is no explicit verse or hadith that forbids raping war captives. There has been no example in all of Islamic history in which a Muslim got punished for raping a war captive.
Additionaly, in this case, a sexual relationship between a Muslim and his war captive(s) does not constitute adultery, as we have already seen that it is clearly permitted in the Quran.

We also find this sanctioned in the Hadith:

Sahih Muslim, Book 008, Number 3371 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/008.smt.html#008.3371):

Abu Sirma said to Abu Sa'id al Khadri (Allah he pleased with him): 0 Abu Sa'id, did you hear Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) mentioning al-'azl? He said: Yes, and added: We went out with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) on the expedition to the Bi'l-Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them, for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing 'azl (Withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid-conception). But we said: We are doing an act whereas Allah's Messenger is amongst us; why not ask him? So we asked Allah's Mes- senger (may peace be upon him), and he said: It does not matter if you do not do it, for every soul that is to be born up to the Day of Resurrection will be born.

Not only did Muhammad's companions take the sex for granted, they also showed no consideration whatsoever towards their captives, whether they consented to have sex or not. How can it be possible that a woman would want to have sex, on the very same day that she witnessed all her family and loved ones get killed, and with the very same people who killed them?!!

With regards to the verses you quoted that allegedly forbid rape:


... And do not, in order to gain some of the fleeting pleasures of this worldly life, coerce your slave women into whoredom if they are desirous of marriage, and if anyone should coerce them, then, verily, after they have been compelled (to submit in their helplessness), God will be much forgiving, a dispenser of grace (to them).

This verse does NOT forbid rape! Any attempt to present this verse as proof that rape is forbidden is utterly dishonest IMO. This verse instructs Muslims not to force their slaves into prostitution (for money) - huge difference!

From Tafsir Ibn Kathir:

Among the people of the Jahiliyyah, there were some who, if he had a slave-girl, he would send her out to commit Zina and would charge money for that, which he would take from her every time. When Islam came, Allah forbade the believers to do that.

As for verse 4:19, we also need to look no further than Ibn Kathir:

"Before, the practice was that when a man dies, his male relatives used to have the right to do whatever they wanted with his wife. If one of them wants, he would marry her, give her in marriage, or prevent her from marriage, for they had more right to her than her own family. Thereafter, this Ayah was revealed about this practice,
O you who believe! You are not permitted to inherit women against their will).

Again, nothing to do with rape at all!

[Madrigal]

Have fun guys. :)

[Ferrus]

The problem with the processes that deal with rape in the Muslim world stem more from popular attitudes towards rape and the highly patriachal view of it -something that is also problem in Western socities - not the view of the Qu'ran that explictly forbids extra-martial sex of any kind let alone sex as dishonourable and immoral as rape.

[INTrePid]

Raping slaves or prisoners of war

The Quranic verses that I quoted here (http://forums.intpcentral.com/showpost.php?p=422530&postcount=161) make it fairly clear that a Muslim is allowed to have sexual intercourse with his slaves and war captives. This is unanimously agreed upon by Muslim scholars.
How is that different from American soldiers? They're not supposed to, but in WWII, it was rampant. It still happens today even though they are not supposed to.

Rape is not permitted in the US either.

[charred_heart]

Raping slaves or prisoners of war
ok, I'll get back to you.
Until then...

http://x009.uploaderx.net/x/Rapeher.jpg

[BerberElla]

How is that different from American soldiers? They're not supposed to, but in WWII, it was rampant. It still happens today even though they are not supposed to.

Rape is not permitted in the US either.

The difference is that in the US it is illegal, if a soldier does it he can get arrested.

In Islam it is divine.

[sbw]

How is that different from American soldiers? They're not supposed to, but in WWII, it was rampant. It still happens today even though they are not supposed to.

it might be different because the american DOJ has extraterritorial rights. nighthawk, if I'm a GI and I rape somebody in okinawa, do they do a military trial or just quietly send me home to my family?

Scott

[Noc'turnal]

The difference is that in the US it is illegal, if a soldier does it he can get arrested.

In Islam it is divine.

Sorry who told you its divine?

According to Islam, a woman has to be respected and protected under all circumstances, whether she belongs to your own nation or to the nation of an enemy, whether she follows your religion or belongs to some other religion or has no religion at all. A Muslim cannot outrage her under any circumstances. All promiscuous relationships have been forbidden to him, irrespective of the status or position of the woman, whether the woman is a willing or an unwilling partner to the act. The words of the Holy Qur??n in this respect are: "Do not approach (the bounds of) adultery" (17:32). Heavy punishment has been prescribed for this crime, and the order has not been qualified by any conditions. Since the violation of chastity of a woman is forbidden in Islam, a Muslim who perpetrates this crime cannot escape punishment. (Maudoodi)

The Quran has, in various ways and in different contexts; impressed on men that they must observe the limits set by God (Hudud Allah) in respect to women and must not encroach upon their rights in either marriage or divorce. In all situations it is the men who are reminded, corrected and reprimanded, over and over again, to be generous to women and to be kind, compassionate, fair and just in their dealings with women. Even in divorce, when the chances of anger and vindictiveness are high, it is stressed that men are to separate with grace, equity and generosity.

Forbidding cruelty against children and women is apparent from rulings against female infanticide and rights of inheritance given even to an unborn child; and the kindness mandated even when divorcing your wife. There are numerous ahadith about the rights of children to respect and dignity. The same holds true for respect and the unprecedented rights given to women.

[attila_the_hunny]

How is that different from American soldiers? They're not supposed to, but in WWII, it was rampant. It still happens today even though they are not supposed to.

Rape is not permitted in the US either.

Apples and oranges. One is a religion, whereas one is a country.

[charred_heart]

The difference is that in the US it is illegal, if a soldier does it he can get arrested.

In Islam it is divine.Say that to a normal muslim and see their reaction. By normal I mean someone who hasn't been indoctrinated into Islam by parents with a fascination for rape, beating women and killing infidels.
To anybody I know, this kind of claim is strange and horrifying.

[Stoned_Rider]

So CH, are we talking about "Islam and rape" or " 'Normal' Muslims and rape"? :D

[charred_heart]

So CH, are we talking about "Islam and rape" or " 'Normal' Muslims and rape"? :DI don't know, it's strange that so many muslims find what you claim to be a non-issue so disgusting.

[Noc'turnal]

I think you guys are being really silly and don't have a clue of Islamic history. You're no scholars.

[Stoned_Rider]

I don't know, it's strange that so many muslims find what the Quran and Hadith say to be a non-issue so disgusting.
Fixed :whistle:

[Stoned_Rider]

Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, the Muslim cleric currently on a controversial visit to Britain, believes that female rape victims should be punished if dressed "immodestly" when assaulted.

Dr al-Qaradawi's views on rape appear on a website called IslamOnline, which purports to give a modern interpretation of Islam. He is the website's chief scholar and leader of a group of Islamic academics who provide answers to questions posed by Muslims on moral issues.

One question asked: "Are raped women punished in Islam?" A panel, headed by Mr al-Qaradawi, replied: "To be absolved from guilt, the raped woman must have shown some sort of good conduct . . . Islam addresses women to maintain their modesty, as not to open the door for evil.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;sessionid=MVLAPL2I50LTZQFIQMGSM5WAVCBQWJVC?xml=/news/2004/07/11/ncleric11.xml

More on rape, Islam, and its influence on Muslims: (http://fjordman.blogspot.com/2005/08/rape-nothing-to-do-with-islam.html)


The number of rapes committed by Muslim immigrants in Western nations are so extremely high that it is difficult to view them only as random acts of individuals. It resembles warfare.

The Islamic legal manual ?Umdat al-Salik, which carries the endorsement of Al-Azhar University, the most respected authority in Sunni Islam, stipulates: ?When a child or a woman is taken captive, they become slaves by the fact of capture, and the woman?s previous marriage is immediately annulled.? Why? So that they are free to become the concubines of their captors. The Qur?an permits Muslim men to have intercourse with their wives and their slave girls: ?Forbidden to you are ... married women, except those whom you own as slaves? (Sura 4:23-24).

After one successful battle, Muhammad tells his men, ?Go and take any slave girl.? He took one for himself also.

It is not understood that Western women are not so much regarded by most Muslims as individuals, but as "their women," the women who "belong" to hostile Infidels. They are booty, to be taken, just as the land of the Infidels someday will drop, it is believed, into Muslim hands

In other words, when in Rome, if you are Muslim, do any damn thing you please and justify it by saying you didn't realize you were in Rome, or what the Romans did, and anyway, the Romans are Infidels so who cares what they do, or expect. A fascinating attitude. The sooner this is fully grasped by Infidels, the fewer victims, ultimately, there will be.

[charred_heart]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;sessionid=MVLAPL2I50LTZQFIQMGSM5WAVCBQWJVC?xml=/news/2004/07/11/ncleric11.xml

More on rape, Islam, and its influence on Muslims: (http://fjordman.blogspot.com/2005/08/rape-nothing-to-do-with-islam.html)it appears that these scholars use sources to back their personal cultural views: that women invite evil if they are not covered from head to toe, and warriors should recieve whatever pleasures they desire if they are victorious.
Good thing there is no religious authorty in Islam.

[charred_heart]

I will ask Madrigal to ask you to stop bullying me already! YOU'RE SUCH A MEAN MONSTER! :boohoo:


Raping slaves or prisoners of war

The Quranic verses that I quoted here (http://forums.intpcentral.com/showpost.php?p=422530&postcount=161) make it fairly clear that a Muslim is allowed to have sexual intercourse with his slaves and war captives. This is unanimously agreed upon by Muslim scholars.
http://groups.msn.com/PAKISTANFRIENDSHIP/islam1.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=953&LastModified=4675468321315358331

[Stoned_Rider]

http://groups.msn.com/PAKISTANFRIENDSHIP/islam1.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=953&LastModified=4675468321315358331

Noted. I will read & reply to it after Eid. I can't debate properly when I'm suffering from severe nicotine and caffeine deprivation because of Ramadan :banghead:

Anyway, judging from their summary, it should be a piece of cake. Inshalla. ;)

Summary:

1. The term 'Ma Malakat Aymanukum' refers to females only (4:24);

2. These are females who are living in a man's 'houshold' (24:58);

3. These are females who are 'dependant' on us financially (4:36);

4. These are females who have family or guardians (4:25);

5. These are females who are the 'Exception' to marrying a married woman (4:24).

Our understanding is that 'Ma Malakat Aymanukum' are widowed women who may be living under the roof and financial support of a man (her family, or the brother or relative of the deceased) and thus are described by the term 'what your OATHS posses' (i.e. due to the responsibility).

Marriage to such women is allowed in the Quran under slightly different terms & conditions than other women.

[Prolific]

Its not rape, having concubines is not rape.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/46/HaremPool.jpg

[meshou]

Its not rape, having concubines is not rape.You're not going to be able to convince me much of marriage in the US before 1900 didn't involve rape, let alone decorative statureless sexual servants of any age.

I don't believe Islam condones rape, but the amount of rape that goes on in the Islamic world and the attitude toward it is appauling. However, a more educated worldwide Islamic community more than likely would not have near the same attitudes.

[Prolific]

You're not going to be able to convince me much of marriage in the US before 1900 didn't involve rape, let alone decorative statureless sexual servants of any age.

I don't believe Islam condones rape, but the amount of rape that goes on in the Islamic world and the attitude toward it is appauling. However, a more educated worldwide Islamic community more than likely would not have near the same attitudes.

The problem is, rape happens because the laws in those (Islamic) countries are messed up. The laws are based on the Sharia, and the way the Qu'ran is interpreted today I wouldn't trust a law based on the Sharia. Lets not forget Islam is 600 years behind Christianity. 600 years ago many woman in Europe had hardly any rights. Over time, with progressive Muslims this will change however its going to take time.

[Huston]

The problem is, rape happens because the laws in those (Islamic) countries are messed up. The laws are based on the Sharia, and the way the Qu'ran is interpreted today I wouldn't trust a law based on the Sharia. Lets not forget Islam is 600 years behind Christianity. 600 years ago many woman in Europe had hardly any rights. Over time, with progressive Muslims this will change however its going to take time.

Islam and Christianity take on their own separate timeline. I have always found the 600 years behind apologetic to be extremely fallacious.

First three hundred years Islam spread by war from Spain to India
First three hundred years Christianity is was persecuted by Empire until it was finally adopted by that same Empire. After 700 years it started to spread by war. The Crusades into Moor occupied Spain, North against the Heathen populations, and then a more defensive attack against the Muslim push into Byzantine, and then the push to Jerusalem. The first 1400 years of Christianity are different from the first 1400 years of Islam.

[meshou]

The problem is, rape happens because the laws in those (Islamic) countries are messed up. The laws are based on the Sharia, and the way the Qu'ran is interpreted today I wouldn't trust a law based on the Sharia. Lets not forget Islam is 600 years behind Christianity. 600 years ago many woman in Europe had hardly any rights. Over time, with progressive Muslims this will change however its going to take time.I agree, I agree. Which is why I said it's not essential to Islam itself, but Goddamn, most of the Islamic world sucks ass on this issue right now.

[BerberElla]

Its not rape, having concubines is not rape.



Many concubines knew, and chose to be concubines, captives of war on the other hand, did not.

I am not saying that concubines is ok, many girls were just given away as concubines with no say, some were trained, some were bought, all pretty much rape and a disgusting reminder of a world in which women have no rights at all.

But then again, that is still happening in islamic countries to this day, girls traded, bought, sold, raped and all of it is ok.

We can argue that the west has a problem with slave trading, which sadly it does, but again it is illegal and we stand against it.

In Islamic countries many women have no rights and no choice and rape is still sanctioned.

[Prolific]

Many concubines knew, and chose to be concubines, captives of war on the other hand, did not.

I am not saying that concubines is ok, many girls were just given away as concubines with no say, some were trained, some were bought, all pretty much rape and a disgusting reminder of a world in which women have no rights at all.

But then again, that is still happening in islamic countries to this day, girls traded, bought, sold, raped and all of it is ok.

We can argue that the west has a problem with slave trading, which sadly it does, but again it is illegal and we stand against it.

In Islamic countries many women have no rights and no choice and rape is still sanctioned.

Name one Islamic country where its legal for girls to be "traded, bought, sold, raped" you find me one country Islamic country which says in its law that this is OK, then you have an argument. If you can't then you're being dishonest!

[BerberElla]

Name one Islamic country where its legal for girls to be "traded, bought, sold, raped" you find me one country Islamic country which says in its law that this is OK, then you have an argument. If you can't then you're being dishonest!


So what is "dowry" or "mahr" if not being Sold and bought?

[meshou]

Name one Islamic country where its legal for girls to be "traded, bought, sold, raped" you find me one country Islamic country which says in its law that this is OK, then you have an argument. If you can't then you're being dishonest!Legal and culturally acceptable are very, very different things. It's illegal to jaywalk, drink underage, or experimet with drugs here in the US. Most people do all of these.

[BerberElla]

If it is "illegal" to trade, buy, sell, or swap girls in islamic countries, why does this happen:

Jailed for feeling the old man (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20061015.wxprison16/BNStory/International/home)

[Prolific]

So what is "dowry" or "mahr" if not being Sold and bought?

"mahr" is a dowry and it is given at the time of marriage. The women don't even have to expect the dowry, and the husband certainly can't pimp his wife after he is married to her when the "Nikah" is done. Furthermore, any who is no married to this women would be punished if they had sex.

Hindus also give an receive dowry.

[Prolific]

If it is "illegal" to trade, buy, sell, or swap girls in islamic countries, why does this happen:

Jailed for feeling the old man (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20061015.wxprison16/BNStory/International/home)

You're being silly, that has nothing do with that initially said. And plus you heard of a word called generalizing. Islamically, you can't even marry a girl to a man she doesn't agree to marry. You can suggest men to her, but you can force her to marry a man. She has to make the choice to marry the man.

[BerberElla]

"mahr" is a dowry and it is given at the time of marriage. The women don't even have to expect the dowry, and the husband certainly can't pimp his wife after he is married to her when the "Nikah" is done. Furthermore, any who is no married to this women would be punished if they had sex.

Hindus also give an receive dowry.

I realise hindu's do it too, I dissaprove in both cases.

You are buying a wife though, you pay your dowry, you have an investment, as many a hadith states "You have made her lawful to you with the bride price", and if the investment decides she wants a divorce, she needs to return the money as you musn't lose out on your investment.

[Prolific]

Legal and culturally acceptable are very, very different things. It's illegal to jaywalk, drink underage, or experimet with drugs here in the US. Most people do all of these.

Well, in my Jatt culture, you should get shot, in Punjab if someone found out you were a pimp! I don't know about in the Arab world though.

[BerberElla]

You're being silly, that has nothing do with that initially said. And plus you heard of a word called generalizing. Islamically, you can't even marry a girl to a man she doesn't agree to marry. You can suggest men to her, but you can force her to marry a man. She has to make the choice to marry the man.

And do you think 9yr old girls are capable of making decisions about wether to displease daddy and say no?

[Prolific]

I realise hindu's do it too, I dissaprove in both cases.

You are buying a wife though, you pay your dowry, you have an investment, as many a hadith states "You have made her lawful to you with the bride price", and if the investment decides she wants a divorce, she needs to return the money as you musn't lose out on your investment.

The hadith are garbage. And you can always reject them.

Plus you don't even understand the concept, if I have you a gift, on your birthday does that mean I want to have sex with you? of course not and its even silly to even suggest this, as giving a dowry is a gift the woman can accept it or not its her choice.

[Prolific]

And do you think 9yr old girls are capable of making decisions about wether to displease daddy and say no?

I can't say. You have to look at each case individually. These things happen in backward uneducated rural areas. Secluded cases.

[BerberElla]

I can't say. You have to look at each case individually. These things happen in backward uneducated rural areas. Secluded cases.

Yep, Iran is a backward uneducated rural area, where it is legal to marry 9yr old girls, in accordance with Aisha.

[Huston]

A gift on a birthday is not the same as contract. Another fallacious argument. The money is given so that the man can have sex. Along with the contract, women do such and such and men do such and such.
Plus you can only reject a Hadith if it contradicts the Quran. A Hadith saying the dowry is the bride price, is not contridicting the Quran.

[Prolific]

A gift on a birthday is not the same as contract. Another fallacious argument. The money is given so that the man can have sex. Along with the contract, women do such and such and men do such and such.
Plus you can only reject a Hadith if it contradicts the Quran. A Hadith saying the dowry is the bride price, is not contridicting the Quran.

You can reject all hadith. There is no where in the Qu'ran where it says you have to believe in the hadith. The true authority on Islam is the Qu'ran. The hadith are just created by the Persians to make deviations to Islam and to mislead Muslims.

[Prolific]

Yep, Iran is a backward uneducated rural area, where it is legal to marry 9yr old girls, in accordance with Aisha.

They follow the ruling of the hadith and use the Sharia which is based on the hadith. Again the hadith are garage, and riddled with internal contradictions.

[Huston]

You can reject all hadith. There is no where in the Qu'ran where it says you have to believe in the hadith.

You again say this as a Quran only Muslim. To get a good picture of Islam you must look at all the source to understand the mindset of a group of people. The Quran can only prove itself. If I say the Quran say that you can eat shit, you can only use the Quran to prove me wrong.


The true theory on Islam is the Qu'ran.

The true theory? No such thing as a true theory.


The hadith just created by the Persians to make deviations to Islam and to mislead Muslims.

You are going to have to evidence for such a statement.

[Prolific]

Anything you base on Islam which is taken from hadith is nonsense. As there are Qu'ran only Muslims. Who don't believe in the hadith.

[Huston]

Anything you base on Islam which is taken from hadith is nonsense. As there are Qu'ran only Muslims. Who don't believe in the hadith.

Ok so everything on Muhammad is nonsense. Thank you for clarifying that.

[Prolific]

You again say this as a Quran only Muslim. To get a good picture of Islam you must look at all the source to understand the mindset of a group of people. The Quran can only prove itself. If I say the Quran say that you can eat shit, you can only use the Quran to prove me wrong.



The true theory? No such thing as a true theory.



You are going to have to evidence for such a statement.

The hadith are nonsense which part of that do you not understand, they are based on legends. For instance one hadith says Mohamed had sexual energy of 100 men, this is pure garage. You can't draw a conclusion of Mohamed from the hadith. As they are just used to mythify Mohamed.

[meshou]

Anything you base on Islam which is taken from hadith is nonsense. As there are Qu'ran only Muslims. Who don't believe in the hadith."Anything you say about the Catholic church doesn't reflect on Christianity, as there are Christians who are not Catholic."

"Anything you say about T women does not reflect on women overall, as there are many women who are not T."

"Any statement about Y (a subset of X) can not be said to reflect on X."

Insofar as Y is not an insignificant subset of X, yes you can. However, if there is yet another subset within X, (let's call it Z) you can't nessicarily say Z reflects on Y.

So, qualities of the Hadith reflects on Islam as a whole, and Quran-only Muslims relfect on Islam as a whole, but they don't nessicarily reflect on each other.

[Huston]

The hadith are nonsense which part of that do you not understand, they are based on legends. For instance one hadith says Mohamed had sexual energy of 100 men, this is pure garage. You can't draw a conclusion of Mohamed from the hadith. As they are just used to mythify Mohamed.

Third time you have used garage instead of garbage.. anyways.

You put this judgement on the Hadith.. what about the Quran? You do not need to say Muhammad has been mythified, cause that is already my stance, but when we deal with Moses, Jonah, Adam, Solomon, Abraham, Jesus, etc the same thing can be said about them. This makes your point useless, especially to Muslims.

[Prolific]

"Anything you say about the Catholic church doesn't reflect on Christianity, as there are Christians who are not Catholic."

"Anything you say about T women does not reflect on women overall, as there are many women who are not T."

"Any statement about Y (a subset of X) can not be said to reflect on X."

Insofar as Y is not an insignificant subset of X, yes you can.

OK, we lets say we believe in the hadith for the sake of argument. So if in a hadith we read Mohamed had sexual stamina of 100 men we reach at a silly conclusion. So we can easily dismiss the hadith as they are not a good representativity of Mohamed and same applies to many other hadith.

For instance in salah some Muslims send blessings (darood) to Mohamed, why would Mohamed be doing the salah and talking to himself in 3rd person. So here we reach another absurd conclusion.

[meshou]

OK, we lets say we believe in the hadith for the sake of argument. So if in a hadith we read Mohamed had sexual stamina of 100 men we reach at a silly conclusion. So we can easily dismiss the hadith as they are not a good representativity of Mohamed and same applies to many other hadith. Only if you define "Muslim" as "representative of Mohammed." If we similarly defined Christianity strictly as "Representative of Christ," you'd quickly run out of Christians!

It's more realistic to say "Disciple of Mohammed, and inherited of his tradition." Then interpretation comes in.

[Huston]

OK, we lets say we believe in the hadith for the sake of argument. So if in a hadith we read Mohamed had sexual stamina of 100 men we reach at a silly conclusion. So we can easily dismiss the hadith as they are not a good representativity of Mohamed and same applies to many other hadith.

Why don't you provide us with such a Hadith?


For instance in salah some Muslims send blessings (darood) to Mohamed, why would Mohamed be doing the salah and talking to himself in 3rd person. So here we reach another absurd conclusion.

Along with this one.. but we have such occurances in the Quran, and I am not talking about Alah saying 'we'. Or maybe it is.. been awhile since I have seen such an argument.

[Prolific]

Third time you have used garage instead of garbage.. anyways.

You put this judgement on the Hadith.. what about the Quran? You do not need to say Muhammad has been mythified, cause that is already my stance, but when we deal with Moses, Jonah, Adam, Solomon, Abraham, Jesus, etc the same thing can be said about them. This makes your point useless, especially to Muslims.

Sorry my bad, I'm typing fast and making typos.

Well you talk about the Qu'ran, the Qu'ran is claimed to be the word of god! so if Muslims want to believe that then I don't know whats the problem. You don't believe that.

However, you as a sane rational human, can't base a conclusion on Mohamed, from the hadith as this is unscientific. If the hadith say Mohamed married an 9 year old, from a scientific perspective why should we accept this claim. As there are many other claims with are absurd and cannot be scientifically possible. In which case this make us as sane rational thinking human beings conclusion of Mohamed absurd. Do you believe Mohamed had sexual stamina of 100 men?

[Huston]

Sorry my bad, I'm typing fast and making typos.

Well you talk about the Qu'ran, the Qu'ran is claimed to be the word of god! so if Muslims want to believe that then I don't know whats the problem. You don't believe that.

However, you as a sane rational human, can't base a conclusion on Mohamed, from the hadith as this is unscientific. If the hadith say Mohamed married an 9 year old, from a scientific perspective why should we accept this claim. As there are many other claims with are absurd and cannot be scientifically possible. In which case this make us as sane rational thinking human beings conclusion of Mohamed absurd. Do you believe Mohamed had sexual stamina of 100 men?

I asked you for the quote on it.

Anyways my belief is not part of anything. Muslims believe in something as absurd as the Quran, what makes the Hadith any different. If someone believed Solomon talked to animals in the Quran, what would make it so hard for the same person to believe that Muhammad had the sexual stanima of 100 men?

[Prolific]

Why don't you provide us with such a Hadith?



Along with this one.. but we have such occurances in the Quran, and I am not talking about Alah saying 'we'. Or maybe it is.. been awhile since I have seen such an argument.

I can assure you these hadith exist, I will have to find them it will take me time. I read then a while back, as you know there are 100s of hadith.

Also the second one is about Salah, (5 daily prayer) as you say the hadith tell us about the Salah, so I was saying Muslims in the Salah have added the sending of the blessings on Mohamed, in claim the salah is exactly the same as Mohamed did it, and Mohamed did do salah 200 years before the hadith, so why would Mohamed be sending blessings onto himself while he is alive this is absurd, so the Muslims who read the salah and send the blessings on Mohamed are not doing as Mohamed did the Salah. Which proves the hadith are not an accurate depiction of what Mohamed did.

[Prolific]

I asked you for the quote on it.

Anyways my belief is not part of anything. Muslims believe in something as absurd as the Quran, what makes the Hadith any different. If someone believed Solomon talked to animals in the Quran, what would make it so hard for the same person to believe that Muhammad had the sexual stanima of 100 men?

So then, why do non Muslims say Mohamed had sex with a 9 year old as that is mentioned in the hadith? my only conclusion is that, they are absurd for believing in this, and is not an accurate or provable claim.

[Huston]

I can assure you these hadith exist, I will have to find them it will take me time. I read then a while back, as you know there are 100s of hadith.

Also the second one is about Salah, (5 daily prayer) as you say the hadith tell us about the Salah, so I was saying Muslims in the Salah have added the sending of the blessings on Mohamed, in claim the salah is exactly the same as Mohamed did it, and Mohamed did do salah 200 years before the hadith, so why would Mohamed be sending blessings onto himself while he is alive this is absurd, so the Muslims who read the salah and send the blessings on Mohamed are not doing as Mohamed did the Salah. Which proves the hadith are not an accurate depiction of what Mohamed did.

Give me the hadith.. I am cannot give a proper judgement by your words.

[Huston]

So then, why do non Muslims say Mohamed had sex with a 9 year old as that is mentioned in the hadith? my only conclusion is that, they are absurd for believing in this, and is not an accurate or provable claim.

They use the argument becuase Muslims believe it, and because it exists in a Muslim text. They only have the Muslim texts to give us a picture of who Muhammad is, or to show how absurd Muslims are by following such texts.

[Prolific]

Give me the hadith.. I am cannot give a proper judgement by your words.

OK I have located the hadith for you and I do apologize it was "30" men and not "100" as I erroneously stated.

Yet this is still an absurd claim:
In Sahih Bukhari, section of "Ghussull" (Washing after intercourse), the Hadith tells that the prophet Muhammed was to have intercourse with his wives, 11 of them, within one hour, day or night. And that he was given the sexual power of 30 men.

http://www.irfi.org/general/history_of_hadiths.htm

[Prolific]

They use the argument becuase Muslims believe it, and because it exists in a Muslim text. They only have the Muslim texts to give us a picture of who Muhammad is, or to show how absurd Muslims are by following such texts.

So, do you believe Mohamed had sex with a 9 year old? you're crazy for believing this are you crazy? why do you believe such crazy things?

[Huston]

OK I have located the hadith for you and I do apologize it was "30" men and not "100" as I erroneously stated.

Yet this is still an absurd claim:
In Sahih Bukhari, section of "Ghussull" (Washing after intercourse), the Hadith tells that the prophet Muhammed was to have intercourse with his wives, 11 of them, within one hour, day or night. And that he was given the sexual power of 30 men.

http://www.irfi.org/general/history_of_hadiths.htm

That does not give the Hadith.

[Huston]

So, do you believe Mohamed had sex with a 9 year old? you're crazy for believing this are you crazy? why do you believe such crazy things?

I already answered your question.

[Huston]

I seem to have found it.

Sahih Bukhari: Volume 1, Book 5, Number 268:
Narrated Qatada:

Anas bin Malik said, "The Prophet used to visit all his wives in a round, during the day and night and they were eleven in number." I asked Anas, "Had the Prophet the strength for it?" Anas replied, "We used to say that the Prophet was given the strength of thirty (men)." And Sa'id said on the authority of Qatada that Anas had told him about nine wives only (not eleven).

Seems you can't tell the difference between rhetoric (or even a simple joke) and literal.

[Prolific]

I seem to have found it.

Sahih Bukhari: Volume 1, Book 5, Number 268:
Narrated Qatada:

Anas bin Malik said, "The Prophet used to visit all his wives in a round, during the day and night and they were eleven in number." I asked Anas, "Had the Prophet the strength for it?" Anas replied, "We used to say that the Prophet was given the strength of thirty (men)." And Sa'id said on the authority of Qatada that Anas had told him about nine wives only (not eleven).

Seems you can't tell the difference between rhetoric (or even a simple joke) and literal.

11 times in 24 hrs. It still far fetched. We are to believe Mohamed without the aid of Viagra had sex 11 times a day, this is absurd. Also lets not forget he had to do the five-daily prayers too.

And was about 60 when he had the 11/9 wives. This is absurd!

[Prolific]

I already answered your question.

OK let me rephrase that for you. Would you say to Muslims who reject the hadith that Mohamed had sex with Asiha (9)? for example to a Qu'ran only person or to my friend who doesn't believe in this particular hadith?

For anyone to use the argument Mohamed was a pedophile is an argument based on a logical fallacy. As the source from where this claim comes from are riddled with contradictions and frankly are abused claims.

[BerberElla]

OK let me rephrase that for you. Would you say to Muslims who reject the hadith that Mohamed had sex with Asiha (9)? for example to a Qu'ran only person or to my friend who doesn't believe in this particular hadith?




I wouldn't, for a quran only muslims then I would focus on the fact that the quran speaks of what to do with your wives who have not had a period yet. Pre-puberty my friend, right there in the quran.:reading:

[Prolific]

I wouldn't, for a quran only muslims then I would focus on the fact that the quran speaks of what to do with your wives who have not had a period yet. Pre-puberty my friend, right there in the quran.:reading:

Can you tell me which verse and then I will try to explain this to you. Please bring some context to the claim you make.

[BerberElla]

Can you tell me which verse and then I will try to explain this to you. Please bring some context to the claim you make.


Q 65:4 talks about divorce:
And (as for) those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, if you have a doubt, their prescribed time shall be three months, and of those too who have not had their courses; and (as for) the pregnant women, their prescribed time is that they lay down their burden; and whoever is careful of (his duty to) Allah He will make easy for him his affair.

[BerberElla]

"Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs), their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy. " (65:4 )


The English translation is masking the real meaning that is so clear in Arabic

The Quran plainly says:

واللائي لم يحضن" فعدتهن ثلاثة أشهر

"and those who never had menses" (because they are underage)

http://quran.al-islam.com/Tafseer/DispTafsser.asp?l=arb&taf=GALALEEN&nType=1&nSora=65&nAya=4

"The prescribed period" is the period that a Muslim female has to wait before marrying another.

and the quran is talking about the length of this period here, stating that it should be three months, whether she is young (before having any menstruation at all) or old ( after reaching menopause)

Still in denial? does not trust my translation ? eat this; Tafsir.com provides a summed up translated tafsir of the original tafsir ibn kathir Quote:


The `Iddah of Those in Menopause and Those Who do not have Menses


Allah the Exalted clarifies the waiting period of the woman in menopause. And that is the one whose menstruation has stopped due to her older age. Her `Iddah is three months instead of the three monthly cycles for those who menstruate, which is based upon the Ayah in (Surat) Al-Baqarah. [see 2:228] The same for the young, who have not reached the years of menstruation. Their `Iddah is three months like those in menopause. This is the meaning of His saying.


http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=65&tid=54196

!!!


so The verse is talking about the devorce status of those who are too younge to have menstruation , and that simply means that its ok to have sex with females who has not reached puberty !!


Still in denial? take this sahih Hadith explaining the verse by Mo Himself:


واللائي لم يحضن , فجعل عدتها ثلاثة أشهر قبل البلوغ ) ‏ ‏أي فدل على أن نكاحها قبل البلوغ جائز
"and those who never had menses, their prescribed period is three months before puberty, which indicates that giving her into marriage before puberty is permissible "

http://hadith.al-islam.com/display/Display.asp?Doc=0&Rec=7644



BEFORE SHE HITS PUBERTY !!!!! ALLAH THE ALL WISE AND MERCIFUL ALLOWS HAVING SEX WITH FEMALES WHO HAS NOT REACHED PUBERTY.

[Prolific]

Q 65:4 talks about divorce:
And (as for) those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, if you have a doubt, their prescribed time shall be three months, and of those too who have not had their courses; and (as for) the pregnant women, their prescribed time is that they lay down their burden; and whoever is careful of (his duty to) Allah He will make easy for him his affair.

Lol try read from verse 1 then you will know what its talking about these are simply instructions for devoicing. This makes me believe you haven't read the Qu'ran:

065.001 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/065.qmt.html#065.001)
YUSUFALI: O Prophet! When ye do divorce women, divorce them at their prescribed periods, and count (accurately), their prescribed periods: And fear Allah your Lord: and turn them not out of their houses, nor shall they (themselves) leave, except in case they are guilty of some open lewdness, those are limits set by Allah: and any who transgresses the limits of Allah, does verily wrong his (own) soul: thou knowest not if perchance Allah will bring about thereafter some new situation.


065.002 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/065.qmt.html#065.002)
YUSUFALI: Thus when they fulfil their term appointed, either take them back on equitable terms or part with them on equitable terms; and take for witness two persons from among you, endued with justice, and establish the evidence (as) before Allah. Such is the admonition given to him who believes in Allah and the Last Day. And for those who fear Allah, He (ever) prepares a way out,


065.003 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/065.qmt.html#065.003)
YUSUFALI: And He provides for him from (sources) he never could imagine. And if any one puts his trust in Allah, sufficient is (Allah) for him. For Allah will surely accomplish his purpose: verily, for all things has Allah appointed a due proportion.

065.004 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/065.qmt.html#065.004)
YUSUFALI: Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs), their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy.


This is giving instruction on devorcing, where does it say you should marry girls who have not had thier perids. The verse is talking about devorcing woman, not marrying. Woman are not always on thier period, you're a woman right? are women on thier periods all year round?.

Anyway I will further disprove this ludicrous conclusion you have made.

It is really very simple to find out what Islam says about the age of marriage. We just check verses from the Quran that talk about nikah (marriage) as well as verses that talk about young women. Here are some of these verses. All of them specifically mention marrying women who have reached puberty:

004.025 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html#004.025)
SHAKIR: And whoever among you has not within his power ampleness of means to marry free believing women, then (he may marry) of those whom your right hands possess from among your believing maidens; and Allah knows best your faith: you are (sprung) the one from the other; so marry them with the permission of their masters, and give them their dowries justly, they being chaste, not fornicating, nor receiving paramours; and when they are taken in marriage, then if they are guilty of indecency, they shall suffer half the punishment which is (inflicted) upon free women. This is for him among you who fears falling into evil; and that you abstain is better for you, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Pay attention to the words ?of those whom your right hands possess from among your believing maidens?. ?Believeing maidens?. The word for maiden is ?fatayaati?. Fatayaati is not a six year old child. Fatayaati means a ?young woman?. Fatayaati is female. The male youth or young man is ?fataah?. A good example is the story of Nabi Yusuf when he was seduced (as a young man) by the ruler?s wife. Here is the verse:

012.030 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/012.qmt.html#012.030)
SHAKIR: And women in the city said: The chiefs wife seeks her slave to yield himself (to her), surely he has affected her deeply with (his) love; most surely we see her in manifest error.

Fataah is a young man ? (capable of loving a woman as in the story of Yusuf in 12:30). Likewise 'fataayati? is a young woman (suitable for marriage as recommended in 4:25 above). Nowhere in the Quran does it say that you can marry a 5 year old toddler or 6 year old toddler.

Here is another verse about marrying young girls who are orphans:

004.127 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html#004.127)
SHAKIR: And they ask you a decision about women. Say: Allah makes known to you His decision concerning them, and that which is recited to you in the Book concerning female orphans whom you do not give what is appointed for them while you desire to marry them, and concerning the weak among children, and that you should deal towards orphans with equity; and whatever good you do, Allah surely knows it.

And what is recited in the Book concerning marrying female orphans ? Here is the answer:

004.006 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html#004.006)
SHAKIR: And test the orphans until they attain puberty; then if you find in them maturity of intellect, make over to them their property, and do not consume it extravagantly and hastily, lest they attain to full age; and whoever is rich, let him abstain altogether, and whoever is poor, let him eat reasonably; then when you make over to them their property, call witnesses in their presence; and Allah is enough as a Reckoner.

[BerberElla]

Of what difference does it make that the verse speaks of Divorce?:huh:

And don't make me laugh, 'maiden' does not indicate age, it indicates virginity status in islam.

[BerberElla]

And what is recited in the Book concerning marrying female orphans ? Here is the answer:

004.006 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html#004.006)
SHAKIR: And test the orphans until they attain puberty; then if you find in them maturity of intellect, make over to them their property, and do not consume it extravagantly and hastily, lest they attain to full age; and whoever is rich, let him abstain altogether, and whoever is poor, let him eat reasonably; then when you make over to them their property, call witnesses in their presence; and Allah is enough as a Reckoner.

Oh and don't forget, this verse speaks more of when to give an orphan their inheritance, not when you can marry them.

[Prolific]

Oh and don't forget, this verse speaks more of when to give an orphan their inheritance, not when you can marry them.

Its also marriage. Its the way the verse is translated to english:

004.006
YUSUFALI: Make trial of orphans until they reach the age of marriage; if then ye find sound judgment in them, release their property to them; but consume it not wastefully, nor in haste against their growing up. If the guardian is well-off, Let him claim no remuneration, but if he is poor, let him have for himself what is just and reasonable. When ye release their property to them, take witnesses in their presence: But all-sufficient is Allah in taking account.

[Prolific]

Of what difference does it make that the verse speaks of Divorce?:huh:

And don't make me laugh, 'maiden' does not indicate age, it indicates virginity status in islam.

The verse is talking about when the best time is to divorce your wife. It doesn't mater if shes on her period or not. I asked you a simple question, you're a woman, right do you be on your period all year around?

The point is a "maiden" is a women. Not a prepubescent girl.

[Prolific]

Oh and don't forget, this verse speaks more of when to give an orphan their inheritance, not when you can marry them.

And here is yet another verse that talks about marrying believing young women:

002.221 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html#002.221)
SHAKIR: And do not marry the idolatresses until they believe, and certainly a believing maid is better than an idolatress woman, even though she should please you; and do not give (believing women) in marriage to idolaters until they believe, and certainly a believing servant is better than an idolater, even though he should please you; these invite to the fire, and Allah invites to the garden and to forgiveness by His will, and makes clear His communications to men, that they may be mindful.

There is nothing here about marrying 6 yr old pre pubescent toddlers. You are supposed to marry ?believing maiden women? (amaatun mu?minaatun). Nowhere does the Quran tell us to marry 5 yr old or 6 yr old toddlers.


There are more verses but these should suffice. In all these verses above which talk about marriage (nikaah) the words used include

edit*

fatayaati (young women),


balaghu nikaah (reach marriageable age),


amaatun mu'minaatun (believeing maidens)


Nowhere in the Quran is Mohammed commanded to teach the believers to marry 6 year old toddlers.


Surely if Mohamed tells the people to marry young women (fataayati), or to marry believing maidens (amaatun mu?minaatun) or talks about orphans reaching the age of marriage (balaghu nikaah) then the Prophet cannot possibly turn around and tell the ummah 'Well guys while you are all marrying young women, maidens and such I am going to marry a 6 yr old toddler'.


This is an evil lie and a slander.

[Huston]

11 times in 24 hrs. It still far fetched. We are to believe Mohamed without the aid of Viagra had sex 11 times a day, this is absurd. Also lets not forget he had to do the five-daily prayers too.

And was about 60 when he had the 11/9 wives. This is absurd!

This is merely an observation from his followers; it does not make it fact. Did they know for sure he had sex with every one of them? Maybe he didn't, unless Muhammad is not that discrete in such manners.. so much for Muslim modesty. Plus, it is quite possible for an old man to have sex with 11 women in a day. Who said that it lasted long or was even enjoyable.. to the women?

There is too much information missing to make the conclusion you are making. One could make 100s of observations with what we have in this Hadith account.

The only conclusion we can make here is (if the observation of the followers is correct):

-Muhammad went to see all his wives throughout the day.
-His followers commenting on such an observation, and making conclusions they cannot possibly back, or they were simply joking around.

[Huston]

Its also marriage. Its the way the verse is translated to english:

004.006
YUSUFALI: Make trial of orphans until they reach the age of marriage; if then ye find sound judgment in them, release their property to them; but consume it not wastefully, nor in haste against their growing up. If the guardian is well-off, Let him claim no remuneration, but if he is poor, let him have for himself what is just and reasonable. When ye release their property to them, take witnesses in their presence: But all-sufficient is Allah in taking account.

All it says is the age of marriage. Now.. I ask you what is this age of marriage according to the Quran?

[Prolific]

All it says is the age of marriage. Now.. I ask you what is this age of marriage according to the Quran?

When a girl has attained puberty. Its about using your common sense, when she is ready for marriage.

[Prolific]

This is merely an observation from his followers; it does not make it fact. Did they know for sure he had sex with every one of them? Maybe he didn't, unless Muhammad is not that discrete in such manners.. so much for Muslim modesty. Plus, it is quite possible for an old man to have sex with 11 women in a day. Who said that it lasted long or was even enjoyable.. to the women?

There is too much information missing to make the conclusion you are making. One could make 100s of observations with what we have in this Hadith account.

The only conclusion we can make here is (if the observation of the followers is correct):

-Muhammad went to see all his wives throughout the day.
-His followers commenting on such an observation, and making conclusions they cannot possibly back, or they were simply joking around.


Exactly, we can't accept anything in hadith as fact! so if the hadith say Mohamed married Aisha (9) then we just have to reject this claim. As the hadith are absurd, and one should not draw a conclusion of a historical figure from texts which is absurd.

[Huston]

The verse is talking about when the best time is to divorce your wife. It doesn't mater if shes on her period or not. I asked you a simple question, you're a woman, right do you be on your period all year around?

The point is a "maiden" is a women. Not a prepubescent girl.

Actually according to the definition of the English word for maiden can be any woman who has never been married.

Mariam-Webster Dictionary

Entry : Maiden
noun
1 : an unmarried girl or woman : MAID

Entry : Maid
noun
1 : an unmarried girl or woman especially when young : VIRGIN

Entry : Virgin
noun (in the context of the two entires above)
2 a : an absolutely chaste young woman b : an unmarried girl or woman

[Prolific]

Actually according to the definition of the English word for maiden can be any woman who has never been married.

Mariam-Webster Dictionary

Entry : Maiden
noun
1 : an unmarried girl or woman : MAID

Entry : Maid
noun
1 : an unmarried girl or woman especially when young : VIRGIN

Entry : Virgin
noun (in the context of the two entires above)
2 a : an absolutely chaste young woman b : an unmarried girl or woman

The Arabic word used in the Qu'ran is: "fatayaati" which in Arabic means "young woman" you have to also look at the text in Arabic.

They have translated the word "fatayaati" from arabic to english as "maiden"

[Huston]

When a girl has attained puberty. Its about using your common sense, when she is ready for marriage.

And what determines puberty. The menarche period? If so, early sexual activity which results in child birth is hazardous since women are far from reaching a healthy mature stage. This is excusable for back then for regular people who have no knowledge of such things, but not for a supposed prophet of God? God does not really know his creation that well or is negligent for not sharing such knowledge with his prophets.

[Prolific]

And what determines puberty. The menarche period? If so, early sexual activity which results in child birth is hazardous since women are far from reaching a healthy mature stage. This is excusable for back then for regular people who have no knowledge of such things, but not for a supposed prophet of God? God does not really know his creation that well or is negligent for not sharing such knowledge with his prophets.

No, the Qu'ran says marry "young women" so common sense would tell you to marry a young WOMAN! not a prepubescent girl.

The word for maiden is fatayaati. Fatayaati is not a six year old child. Fatayaati means a young woman. Fatayaati is female. The male youth or young man is fataah.

[Huston]

Exactly, we can't accept anything in hadith as fact! so if the hadith say Mohamed married Aisha (9) then we just have to reject this claim. As the hadith are absurd, and one should not draw a conclusion of a historical figure from texts which is absurd.

No, it is your judgment of rejecting such events because you cannot accept them. There is nothing absurd about it. If find it absurd that Noah took on two of each kind, I find it absurd (from both the Bible and Quran) that Jonah was swallowed by a whale/fish, I find it absurd that Solomon spoke to animals. But hearing the comments of his followers on an observation they made is not absurd. There is nothing absurd about Muhammad marrying a 6 year old and then consummating that marriage when she was 9.

[Stoned_Rider]

There is nothing absurd about Muhammad marrying a 6 year old and then consummating that marriage when she was 9.

Yes, because it's fully consistent with his character. Funny how Muslims take the liberty to reject SAHIH (authentic) hadiths in the BUKHARI and MUSLIM collections, while at the same time insisting on quoting weak hadiths that talk about the "inner jihad" or self-struggle!

[Prolific]

Anyway, Huston. If you don't know the Qu'ran in Arabic why do you insist on make claims which you have no knowledge about?

I am a apostate, however I understand the Qu'ran also in basic Arabic. You and Sahara for example don't even know the Qu'ran in basic Arabic, Sahara hasn't even read the English translation of the Qu'ran never mind understanding basic Arabic, if she had read the Qu'ran then she wouldn't have made illogical claim that the Qu'ran says you can marry prepubescent girls. As the whole chapter is talking about divorce and not marriage.

[Prolific]

No, it is your judgment of rejecting such events because you cannot accept them. There is nothing absurd about it. If find it absurd that Noah took on two of each kind, I find it absurd (from both the Bible and Quran) that Jonah was swallowed by a whale/fish, I find it absurd that Solomon spoke to animals. But hearing the comments of his followers on an observation they made is not absurd. There is nothing absurd about Muhammad marrying a 6 year old and then consummating that marriage when she was 9.

Events? don't talk about thing you have no knowledge of. We just talked about how the hadith are absurd. So that "event" never really happened. Theres no proof that happened.

[BerberElla]

Anyway, Huston. If you don't know the Qu'ran in Arabic why do you insist on make claims which you have no knowledge about?

I am a apostate, however I understand the Qu'ran also in basic Arabic. You and Sahara for example don't even know the Qu'ran in basic Arabic, Sahara hasn't even read the English translation of the Qu'ran never mind understanding basic Arabic, if she had read the Qu'ran then she wouldn't have made illogical claim that the Qu'ran says you can marry prepubescent girls. As the whole chapter is talking about divorce and not marriage.

Listen [deleted], I have read the quran, you know this. It is not an illogical claim, your twists and turns are the illogical ones.

And stop claiming to be an apostate, By the way, how is your site going?

You know the one where you pretend to be 2 characters, 1 an apostate and 1 a muslim, who argue with each other?

[Prolific]

Yes, because it's fully consistent with his character. Funny how Muslims take the liberty to reject SAHIH (authentic) hadiths in the BUKHARI and MUSLIM collections, while at the same time insisting on quoting weak hadiths that talk about the "inner jihad" or self-struggle!

The character of Mohamed which is based from the absurd hadith? why don't you also believe and accept as true that the rapture is coming?

Why do you believe parts of absurd hadith, if you can accept Mohamed married a 9 years because you read it in the hadith (lol) then why can't you also accept that Islam is a true religion from god?

[BerberElla]

The character of Mohamed which is based from the absurd hadith? why don't you also believe and accept as true that the rapture is coming?

Why do you believe parts of absurd hadith, if you can accept Mohamed married a 9 years because you read it in the hadith (lol) then why can't you also accept that Islam is a true religion from god?

What you fail to understand is that the hadiths are accepted by over 90% of muslims, islamic practises stem from the hadiths, whilst I may not accept god exists, I accept that 1.5billion muslims exist, and the majority DO accept that Mohammed married Aisha when she was 6 and slept with her when she was 9.

But lets not forget how girls matured faster in those times, or do you not use that arguement anymore?

[Huston]

Events? don't talk about thing you have no knowledge of. We just talked about how the hadith are absurd. So that "event" never really happened. Theres no proof that happened.

What knowledge? You just hapen to have this knowledge? If you want to make such a claim then there is no prrof for nything in Islam. It does not exist. Becuas ethe event in the Quran never happened either. There is not evidence that those events happened in the Quran.

If you want to make a claim on the Hadith, it also applies to the Quran.

[Stoned_Rider]

And stop claiming to be an apostate, By the way, how is your site going?

You know the one where you pretend to be 2 characters, 1 an apostate and 1 a muslim, who argue with each other?
:lol:

I'm not surprised. I never had a doubt he's full of shit. This is yet another Taqiyya tactic. He's telling me to get over Islam when he has a whole website about it? :D

Practice what you preach!

[Prolific]

Listen [deleted], I have read the quran, you know this. It is not an illogical claim, your twists and turns are the illogical ones.

And stop claiming to be an apostate, By the way, how is your site going?

You know the one where you pretend to be 2 characters, 1 an apostate and 1 a muslim, who argue with each other?


Well if you have read the Qu'ran then why did you say the Qu'ran says you can marry pubescent girls? you lied then?

I am an apostate, so why should I stop calming which is true?

Firstly, I asked someone to create the site for me, he did. He is a Muslim, he made false claims about me etc. And me and him fell out. In fact I was in danger as he told everyone that I had left Islam. However I am banned from that site.

[Huston]

Anyway, Huston. If you don't know the Qu'ran in Arabic why do you insist on make claims which you have no knowledge about?

Irrelevant. The meaning is not lost in the translation, only the rhythm and style.

[BerberElla]

:lol:

I'm not surprised. I never had a doubt he's full of shit. This is yet another Taqiyya tactic. He's telling me to get over Islam when has a whole website about it? :D

Practice what you preach!

Yes, here is the site:
Theology discussion board (http://x.jconserv.net/index.php?sid=38344ee27a2e9adaff7b3b31ab3f5140)

Root and Amun Ra - aka - Prolific

[Prolific]

What you fail to understand is that the hadiths are accepted by over 90% of muslims, islamic practises stem from the hadiths, whilst I may not accept god exists, I accept that 1.5billion muslims exist, and the majority DO accept that Mohammed married Aisha when she was 6 and slept with her when she was 9.

But lets not forget how girls matured faster in those times, or do you not use that arguement anymore?

So but we know its not true that Mohamed married a 9 year old. If Muslims believe in pink flying unicorns will you start believing in them?

And I don't know about girls maturing faster back then, its generally believed girls mature faster now then back then.

[Prolific]

Yes, here is the site:
Theology discussion board (http://x.jconserv.net/index.php?sid=38344ee27a2e9adaff7b3b31ab3f5140)

Root and Amun Ra - aka - Prolific

I told, you I'm banned from there he deleted my account. He wanted to "jump me" in real life. We don't talk anymore.

[BerberElla]

So but we know its not true that Mohamed married a 9 year old. If Muslims believe in pink flying unicorns will you start believing in them?

No, sorry but we don't know if it's true that he never. Comsidering the hadiths date back to the oldest quran in existance, who knows whats true, he actually could have done it.



And I don't know about girls maturing faster back then, its generally believed girls mature faster now then back then.

Thank god you changed your tactic, I remember watching you make that claim ages ago, I guess those links to the menarche site paid off.

[Prolific]

Irrelevant. The meaning is not lost in the translation, only the rhythm and style.

Then why didn't you know the word for "maiden" is "fatayaati"?

[Huston]

So but we know its not true that Mohamed married a 9 year old. If Muslims believe in pink flying unicorns will you start believing in them?

This does not add up. One claim is believeable, because it can actually happen, and the latter is absurd because in no way can it happen. But again, I keep stressing, Muslims believe Solomon to have spoken to animals. This is equivilant to you saying Muslims believing in pink flying unicorns. Well there is the account of Muhammad flying up to heaven on a mule.. but that was only a dream.

[Prolific]

No, sorry but we don't know if it's true that he never. Comsidering the hadiths date back to the oldest quran in existance, who knows whats true, he actually could have done it.



Thank god you changed your tactic, I remember watching you make that claim ages ago, I guess those links to the menarche site paid off.


The hadith came 200 years after the death of Mohamed. And if you read books on hadith you will realize things. the Hadith were created to mythfiy Mohamed a little like Greek gods.

[Prolific]

This does not add up. One claim is believeable, because it can actually happen, and the latter is absurd because in no way can it happen. But again, I keep stressing, Muslims believe Solomon to have spoken to animals. This is equivilant to you saying Muslims believing in pink flying unicorns. Well there is the account of Muhammad flying up to heaven on a mule.. but that was only a dream.

There might be a deeper meaning to the talking to animals. certain aspects of the Qu'ran are written in riddles.

[BerberElla]

The hadith came 200 years after the death of Mohamed. And if you read books on hadith you will realize things. the Hadith were created to mythfiy Mohamed a little like Greek gods.

I know that, but the majority of muslims do not. To them it is true, SAHIH is true.

By the way, its not 200 years:
This biography of Muhammad - a Sira - was written by Ibn Ishaq, an Arab who lived in the century after Muhammad did, dying around 151 AH (that is, about 773 CE). It is one of the few full biographies of the Prophet.

It's easy for me to listen to my grandad tell me things that happened when he was young, and Ibn Ishaq's grandfather would have known, his was the earliest work.

[Prolific]

I know that, but the majority of muslims do not. To them it is true, SAHIH is true.

By the way, its not 200 years:
This biography of Muhammad - a Sira - was written by Ibn Ishaq, an Arab who lived in the century after Muhammad did, dying around 151 AH (that is, about 773 CE). It is one of the few full biographies of the Prophet.

It's easy for me to listen to my grandad tell me things that happened when he was young, and Ibn Ishaq's grandfather would have known, his was the earliest work.

Majority of Muslims are illiterate, give it another 300 - 500 years and I don't think any Muslim will believe in the hadith. Many Muslims believe what the mullah tells them. For some hadith let them get away with doing dirt under the name of Islam. Its about keeping power.

But we as educated humans can understand where the problem is, we understand the hadith to be absurd. So we can't say Mohamed married a 9 year old Mohamed raped Saffiya etc, etc. As these things come from the absurd hadith.

There could have been ulterior motives. It wasn't like everyone was Mohammed's friend and would right an unbiased biography about him. (referring to Ibn Ishaq)

[Huston]

There might be a deeper meaning to the talking to animals. certain aspects of the Qu'ran are written in riddles.

Oh.. a riddle.. so much for you quoting the verses that say the Quran is clear and concise.

[Huston]

Majority of Muslims are illiterate, give it another 300 - 500 years and I don't think any Muslim will believe in the hadith. Many Muslims believe what the mullah tells them. For some hadith let them get away with doing dirt under the name of Islam. Its about keeping power.

But we as educated humans can understand where the problem is, we understand the hadith to be absurd. So we can't say Mohamed married a 9 year old Mohamed raped Saffiya etc, etc. As these things come from the absurd hadith.

How are any of these thing you say about the Hadith absurd? They are all quite likely. There is nothing irrational about these events.

[Prolific]

Oh.. a riddle.. so much for you quoting the verses that say the Quran is clear and concise.

Yes, the Qu'ran is clear however certain aspects have metaphysical meaning. For instance in the Qu'ran there are 3 words "Alif, Lam, Meem" no one knows the meaning of this.

However, I appropriate much of the teaching in the Qu'ran, even though I might not believe in Islam, from a moral and defensive prospective the Qu'ran is a great piece of work. Its a commendable book!

[Prolific]

How are any of these thing you say about the Hadith absurd? They are all quite likely. There is nothing irrational about these events.

You don't find a 60 year old man, fucking 9 women in one-day absurd? there was no Viagra back then.

[Prolific]

Look we can argue about this stuff until we are blue in the face. The fact of the matter remains the Qu'ran is a commendable book. And one should not compare hadith with the Qu'ran.

[BerberElla]

Look we can argue about this stuff until we are blue in the face. The fact of the matter remains the Qu'ran is a commendable book. And one should not compare hadith with the Qu'ran.

Verse 4:34 is commendable?:wtf:

[Prolific]

Verse 4:34 is commendable?:wtf:

Yes, I don't find anything wrong with it:

004.034 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html)
YUSUFALI: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

[Huston]

Yes, the Qu'ran is clear however certain aspects have metaphysical meaning. For instance in the Qu'ran there are 3 words "Alif, Lam, Meem" no one knows the meaning of this.

Then it is not clear. For something to be clear and concise, it must not repeat itself, it must not be ambiguous, and it must be understood by all those who read it.


However, I appropriate much of the teaching in the Qu'ran, even though I might not believe in Islam, from a moral and defensive prospective the Qu'ran is a great piece of work. Its a commendable book!

Moral and defensive stance? Really? Sahara brought up 4:34. Oh so it is ok to beat women, chastise them, and lock them in their rooms when you fear (irrational or absurd feeling) that they are unfaithful or rebellious. No need for proof.. just a damn irrational feeling.


You don't find a 60 year old man, fucking 9 women in one-day absurd? there was no Viagra back then.

One does not need Viagra to do such a feat when one is 60, unless they are impotent.


Look we can argue about this stuff until we are blue in the face. The fact of the matter remains the Qu'ran is a commendable book. And one should not compare hadith with the Qu'ran.

When one removes the "divine" status of the Quran, the Hadith and Quran cannot be separated. They must be judge equally.

[Prolific]

You have to understand the meaning. Before you jump to conclusions. This verse talks about punishing, woman who's part you fear disloyalty.

For example, there are Chinese living across me who are Buddhist and don't believe in violence. However, the woman sometimes does gambling, and she sometimes loses money which they had made from their businesses i.e. she gambles the money. Sometimes, out of love her husband beats her and tells her not to do it. And she doesn't for about a good 1 - 2 years.

So this is a fact of life rather then the Qu'ran bruising it under the carpet it gives you the correct approach of how to do this, I.e. first talk to your wife about the problem, if she doesn't listen then refuse to have sex with her, and if she still doesn't then as a last resort, you may beat her lightly.

[Huston]

You have to understand the meaning. Before you jump to conclusions. This verse talks about punishing, woman who's part you fear disloyalty.

For example, there are Chinese living across me who are Buddhist and don't believe in violence. However, the woman sometimes does gambling, and she sometimes loses money which they had made from their businesses i.e. she gambles the money. Sometimes, out of love her husband beats her and tells her not to do it. And she doesn't for about a good 1 - 2 years.

So this is a fact of life rather then the Qu'ran bruising it under the carpet it gives you the correct approach of how to do this, I.e. first talk to your wife about the problem, if she doesn't listen then refuse to have sex with her, and if she still doesn't then as a last resort, you may beat her lightly.

She does not do it because she fears the consequences. Beating does nothing good but generate fear and submission.

If you cannot come to a compromise through talking (whether it be yelling or not, or something that take five minutes or 5 years). If it is not resolved, fuck each other.. leave, part ways, forget about each other.

This verse, or such actions are made by insecure men who fear they will not get any sex, home cooked food, etc

[Prolific]

Then it is not clear. For something to be clear and concise, it must not repeat itself, it must not be ambiguous, and it must be understood by all those who read it.

The Qu'ran as a whole is clear. Yes, there are verses which are repeated however those are repeated for spiritual benefit.



Moral and defensive stance? Really? Sahara brought up 4:34. Oh so it is ok to beat women, chastise them, and lock them in their rooms when you fear (irrational or absurd feeling) that they are unfaithful or rebellious. No need for proof.. just a damn irrational feeling.

The first thing the verse talks about is communication, onces you talk to your wife then you will have a clear understanding and she will also have a clear understanding, this is exactly what civilized humans do. So then your claim of "irrational or absurd feeling" doesn't apply.


One does not need Viagra to do such a feat when one is 60, unless they are impotent.

Generally men over 55 are impotent.



When one removes the "divine" status of the Quran, the Hadith and Quran cannot be separated. They must be judge equally.

No the hadith are junk, the Qu'ran is not, it has commendable teaching within in it. I love them, and I'm not even a Muslim.

[Prolific]

She does not do it because she fears the consequences. Beating does nothing good but generate fear and submission.

If you cannot come to a compromise through talking (whether it be yelling or not, or something that take five minutes or 5 years). If it is not resolved, fuck each other.. leave, part ways, forget about each other.

This verse, or such actions are made by insecure men who fear they will not get any sex, home cooked food, etc


The Qu'ran also talks about speaking to your wife, also. And in Islam you can divorce your wife if she is a sexually promiscuous.

[BerberElla]

Yes, I don't find anything wrong with it:

004.034 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html)
YUSUFALI: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

So if I as a woman fear my hubby being disloyal I can beat him too?

[Huston]

The Qu'ran as a whole is clear.

Really? It follows no logical order. It is random and without context without painful study and wasted time.


Yes, there are verses which are repeated however those are repeated for spiritual benefit.

Spiritual benefit, pfft. I find no spirituality at all in Islam or Judaism, some in Christianity, but mostly in primitive myth, archetypes, and introspection.


The first thing the verse talks about is communication, onces you talk to your wife then you will have a clear understanding and she will also have a clear understanding, this is exactly what civilized humans do. So then your claim of "irrational or absurd feeling" doesn't apply.

It does not talk about communication. It talks about chastising her! Putting her in her place, which is at your fucking feet.


Generally men over 55 are impotent.

Really?


No the hadith are junk, the Qu'ran is not, it has commendable teaching within in it. I love them, and I'm not even a Muslim.

You are Muslim that is why you love it.

[Huston]

The Qu'ran also talks about speaking to your wife, also. And in Islam you can divorce your wife if she is a sexually promiscuous.

If so, then why does 4:34 exist?

[Prolific]

So if I as a woman fear my hubby being disloyal I can beat him too?

No, as the husband is generally physically more stronger then the wife. And this could lead to violence. So it would be a good idea to talk to the husband, and if this doesn't work then you can always ask for arbitration of the issue. And then seek divorce.



If so, then why does 4:34 exist?

Because its addressing the issue, as it happens. You don't have to be a Muslim to marital problems. The Qu'ran is just addressing them if they ever do arise. I think you're being pretty naive.