American revolution or defection

[immortalmack]

In light of the executive branch being givin awesome powers in the areas of survelliance, incarceration, torture, etc. At what point will a mass uprising be needed or at what point is better to just take residence in another country.

[Dr. Haight]

... sometime back in the 1880's (and that is my answer for both questions).

[bclark619g]

Look, the US government has granted extraordinary powers before and then removed them when they were no longer required. So just let the president do his job and in 2008 vote for a new one.

The media will not let these powers remain because they will constantly trot this subject out to increase ratings. Besides the ACLU will protect you if you get caught in the snares of the extraordinary powers.

Sleep well, my son.

[immortalmack]

Surely the same statement could be made in any of the countries who've fell into despotic behaivors and trampling of civil rights, not to mention a slight disregard for constitutions. In my mind the real fear is who gets labeled a "Detainee".Possible protester maybe?

[Nemesis]

In light of the executive branch being givin awesome powers in the areas of survelliance, incarceration, torture, etc. At what point will a mass uprising be needed or at what point is better to just take residence in another country.
What? You mean it's safe for me to leave this underground bunker I'm in? I mean, what with the nuclear winter and the Oceanic government hunting down all us gays?

[Krill]

What? You mean it's safe for me to leave this underground bunker I'm in? I mean, what with the nuclear winter and the Oceanic government hunting down all us gays?

:rofl:

Ahem.

"Every citizen should be a soldier. This was the case with the Greeks and Romans, and must be that of every free state. "
- Thomas Jefferson

[bclark619g]

:rofl:

Ahem.

"Every citizen should be a soldier. This was the case with the Greeks and Romans, and must be that of every free state. "
- Thomas Jefferson

Perfect response, Krill.

[Nemesis]

:rofl:

Ahem.

"Every citizen should be a soldier. This was the case with the Greeks and Romans, and must be that of every free state. "
- Thomas Jefferson
Indeed.

Anyway, in all seriousness, immortalmack, ask us again when they're breaking down peoples' doors because they're muslims.

[bclark619g]

Surely the same statement could be made in any of the countries who've fell into despotic behaivors and trampling of civil rights, not to mention a slight disregard for constitutions. In my mind the real fear is who gets labeled a "Detainee".Possible protester maybe?

Yes, it could, but we're talking about the United States. In those countries, there isn't an equivalent organization like the ACLU. I don't agree with the ACLU on many of their most popular cases (none of which I can recall at the moment) but there have been some cases where I was glad that they were there to defend a citizen. I'm sure there are many more cases which I would approve of their activity but I'm not interested enough to explore any further.

Unless you are some sort of whacko, fringe-living, anarchist, I don't think you need to worry about it. Stay concerned and keep your Congressional members aware of your concerns. Maybe give a donation to the ACLU.

[ptGatsby]

Yes, it could, but we're talking about the United States.


I know more follows, but that's just plain scary.

It can and does happen. Organisations change. Some are arrested. Some are set up and undermined.

No one, no place, no organisation is ever different. When you allow it to go forward, there is always the chance you won't be allowed to step back. And never, in all of history, has the step back removed the effects of stepping forward. No one will forget what the US passed, and that it could happen again. No organisation will forget the power they once had.

[kuranes]

Citizens, as a result of this latest incursion by terrorists, we're going to have to suspend the election. Mr. Bush is being granted temporary emergency powers. No need for you to do anything. Just attend to your daily work. We all need to bloom where we're planted.

[immortalmack]

... sometime back in the 1880's (and that is my answer for both questions).

Honorable Dr. haight could you please elaborate more?

[immortalmack]

Yes, it could, but we're talking about the United States. In those countries, there isn't an equivalent organization like the ACLU. I don't agree with the ACLU on many of their most popular cases (none of which I can recall at the moment) but there have been some cases where I was glad that they were there to defend a citizen. I'm sure there are many more cases which I would approve of their activity but I'm not interested enough to explore any further.

Unless you are some sort of whacko, fringe-living, anarchist, I don't think you need to worry about it. Stay concerned and keep your Congressional members aware of your concerns. Maybe give a donation to the ACLU.

Don't you think it's kina weak and sad to rely on an orginization like the ACLU.Yes they are in the defense of alot of these issues but they can't stop a runaway republic.

Never at any time did a man found a republic and not expect the citizens to defend it. (Machavelli, Art of War)

[bclark619g]

Citizens, as a result of this latest incursion by terrorists, we're going to have to suspend the election. Mr. Bush is being granted temporary emergency powers. No need for you to do anything. Just attend to your daily work. We all need to bloom where we're planted.

Congress would have to approve most of the emergency powers. The Constitution would not be thrown out the window. Congress and the Supreme Court would still have their powers.

Plus, we can all drive our cars through the window of the local gun shop and arm ourselves.

I'm not advocating a blind faith in government like some German Jews did in the 1930's and 1940's. But we need to be realistic. About the worst thing that could happen would be states seceding from the United States and we'd have another civil war. President Lincoln had some extraordinary powers then and it turned out okay.

Would you feel the same way if it were a Democratic Party president?

[bclark619g]

Don't you think it's kina weak and sad to rely on an orginization like the ACLU.Yes they are in the defense of alot of these issues but they can't stop a runaway republic.

Never at any time did a man found a republic and not expect the citizens to defend it. (Machavelli, Art of War)

Okay, you have other organizations too. Congress for one, the Judiciary or Supreme Court for another. The Judiciary was the organization that forced Bush to treat the detainees in Guantanamo as criminals, not prisoners of war. Seems like the system is working okay in that instance.

Runaway republic? Are you aware that the members of the military swear allegiance to defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic? They don't swear allegiance to the President of the United States. Where is the runaway republic coming from?

[immortalmack]

I vote republican! But tyrants and authoritarians will always begin as something else.

What would you need to see to get worried about our republic.
Or what would you need to see that would make you take up residence in another country. Or would you stay here and tuff it out.

[Rajah]

In light of the executive branch being givin awesome powers in the areas of survelliance, incarceration, torture, etc. At what point will a mass uprising be needed or at what point is better to just take residence in another country.When we've had enough of giving up our freedoms.

Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power. -Benjamin Franklin

[immortalmack]

I say runaway republic (for shock value really I'll be honest) because of the civil rights thats be suspended until further notice.If you too long, some things will be permanent.judiciaries die and legislators lose offices.
They're tampering with constitutional law right now. For all we know the constitution will be interpreted differently in the future.

[ptGatsby]

They're tampering with constitutional law right now. For all we know the constitution will be interpreted differently in the future.


Yah, I have a hard time believing that anyone could think of the constitution as a gold standard anymore, as they rangle over legal no-oversight wiretaps and retroactive immunity+allowances for torture... in addition to the suspension of habeas corpus.

[bclark619g]

I've only travelled outside the U.S. to the following places:

Jamaica in 1983 on my honeymoon, Scotland three times from 1984 to 1985 when I was in the Navy, Cozumel (sp?), Mexico on a cruise in 2003, Grand Cayman Island

My experience is rather limited, but I still think the US is the best place to live and the best form of government. Some people tend to get really worked up about the political goings on here. For example, my parents were dead-certain that Ronald Reagan was going to get us into WWIII. All I cared about was that he was going to raise my pay in the Navy! Bill Clinton was not my choice for president but he didn't hurt the country either.

I am having a hard time conceiving of a scenario that could actually occur which would make me leave the country. We have to remember that everyone in this country has an agenda: Republicans, Democrats, other political parties, and the media. The media gets to choose which agendas it talks about, while at the same time trying to deny that it has its own agenda.

Our job as citizens is to pay attention to what everyone's agenda is and then make decisions according to our best interests.

[immortalmack]

I love this country. But I'm not of the opionion that the US is immune to power drunk people. I believe if the conditions are right we could go into a state of martial law.
The media are a bunch of gays.They do try to set the pace in american politics.One thing I noticed is the level of manipulation by the media and the level of acceptance by the average american.

[ptGatsby]

Okay, you have other organizations too. Congress for one, the Judiciary or Supreme Court for another. The Judiciary was the organization that forced Bush to treat the detainees in Guantanamo as criminals, not prisoners of war. Seems like the system is working okay in that instance.


A great improvement, indeed... Glad that worked out so well. But hey, I guess it is better than it was... This is how rights are slowly eroded... Two steps into darkness, and only one step back.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5390848.stm

[immortalmack]

I heard a report on npr this morning talking about suspending writ habeas corpus for detainees.Even if you are an american citizen some of your due process rights get taken away under detainee status.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6190108

[Ferrus]

... sometime back in the 1880's (and that is my answer for both questions).
I thought it was about the 1860's that the federal government in America started to violate everyone's right (e.g. Lincoln's rescinding of Habeus Corpus).

[panda]

Revolution > Defection. Solve the problem, don't run away from it.
From an egoistic viewpoint, revolutions are not always worth the risk. Naturally, the same can be said for defection(s).

In other words, every situation calls for a unique cost-benefit analysis.

[MacGuffin]

I thought it was about the 1860's that the federal government in America started to violate everyone's right (e.g. Lincoln's rescinding of Habeus Corpus).
You forgetting the Alien and Sedition Acts from 1798?

[rawr]

Political efficacy is low in america. A revolution is unlikley, reformation is more likely.

[immortalmack]

Political efficacy is low in america. A revolution is unlikley, reformation is more likely.

Thats the scary part. A person has to be on watch for it's on rights and liberties.But every one I talk to isnt seeing it my way. In the past this wouldve made me not act on my own intuition. But not anymore:nono:

[Dr. Haight]

I thought it was about the 1860's that the federal government in America started to violate everyone's right (e.g. Lincoln's rescinding of Habeus Corpus).
I was actually answering this question directly:

At what point will a mass uprising be needed...
However, to answer your question...

The struggle to gain, or maintain, civil rights began the same day the place we call the US began. Moreover, this is true of any society at any time in human history. It's a simple power struggle that is inherent in any large societal structure - as well as small ones, I suppose.

[sbw]

You forgetting the Alien and Sedition Acts from 1798?


The struggle to gain, or maintain, civil rights began the same day the place we call the US began. Moreover, this is true of any society at any time in human history. It's a simple power struggle that is inherent in any large societal structure - as well as small ones, I suppose.

so shit was fucked from the git-go then :joft:

Scott

[Dr. Haight]

so shit was fucked from the git-go then :joft:

Scott

True, but then freedom's and liberties are relative. So when you compare and contrast US civil rights with that of, emm, err, China in the 70's, or the Soviet Union in the 40's, etc... then we ain't doing so bad. Because in the end, absolute freedom does not exist; but freedom's, are simply a matter of degrees.