the genious and the madman?

[knome]

I made a comment to a friend shortly before finding the enneagram institute (http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/TypeFive.asp) that I believed my personality type was the same that spawns the genious and the madman, and that there was probably a fine line between the two.

When I read the type 5 description [linked above] from the enneagram institute website, I found myself staring in the same sort of quiet awe that initially getting back my MBTI INTP results gave me. That 'reading into your mind' sort of thing. The feeling was rather eery, in that the description of the "Unhealthy" nailed a lot of what I went through in high school some years back.

The "Mental Health" thread got me thinking, with it's references to mental illness, especially augsburgers / austism /schizoid et al. It seems to me that many of these things are merely common components of an INTP mind reacting poorly to the world with which it is presented.

What do the rest of your think? Could many of those society considers mad or insane be INTPs or similar that can't seem to find a meeting point between their perception of things and the world around them?

[[ two bonus things : 1- i've noticed posting here is rather disarming in relation to openness for some reason : 2 - don't let any SJ's see this thread, we don't need any witch hunts now...:D :( :blink: ]]

[KentOhio]

I've wondered if some famous serial killers just might be INTP's.

[Ckyzxr]

I've wondered if some famous serial killers just might be INTP's.

I as well. I am fascinated with the Serial Killer persona. I asked my counselor about this and he explained that the fascination was P based and not to be concerned that I was intrigued by the darker side of human behavior.

[flan2dave]

What do the rest of your think? Could many of those society considers mad or insane be INTPs or similar that can't seem to find a meeting point between their perception of things and the world around them?

The funny thing is, the INTP is considered strange when trying to do this, but when others don't bother evaluating their perceptions and just go right on ahead without doubt, they're considered confident and normal.

You might read that the mathematician Cantor went "mad" in his later years, but when you go further into the circumstances of his life, you see plainly the problem is the society/people around him (if I remember right, I can't recall the specifics but this is the impression I came away with). Other examples are bound to pop up, where you read about a genius slipping into depression and whatnot, you would be forgiven to assume it has something to do with their personality, but more often that not it's really due to a problems like not having their ideas and work appreciated. To those who aren't comfortable with addressing the real problems, it's easier to label the deviants as weird and adhere to the status quo.

But now knowing this might breed another attitude: you must be some type of creative genius in order to justify the "strange" behaivor. This is also wrong, but the attitude is still rather pervasive. Even among same types, an intp might not like other intps because they see the qualities they refuse to like about themselves, because society has convinced other qualities are more desirable (this doesn't have to be the reason at all though, it's natural for one personality to be attracted to different types because of complementing qualities and less competition). In the same vein, sociologists would show you statistics that demonstrate blacks discriminate against blacks. That's not to say intps are always put down, being associated with qualities of intelligence has its benefits.

[tragula]

Personally I am highly dubious of the whole Enneagram thing. It seems to me to be not nailed down, focused obssesively on dysfunctionality, much more F than T. Also it seems to place psychology on a much higher plane than philosophy, without justification. As if we ultimately don't choose to be who we are!!

Anyway. I don't think the INTP personality would have to have all these mental health issues. I mean it's one thing to be non-conformist, innovative, eccentric and anti social. And quite another to be psychotic. In a nutshell, hah hah, I think that people who are more detached and rational would be less likely to do harm. Now, perhaps INTP may have to deal with that shadow function F overwhelming them sometimes in a negative way... so maybe there is a little bit of a Jeckle and Hyde thing going on for INTP?

You know who can get really crazy sometimes? ISFP shh. Don't pass it on....

[cjs55]

We don't ultimately choose who we are, at least entirely. If I could choose, I probably would be an ENTP instead of an INTP.

I've...understood how a serial killer could kill. Murder is another thing I've explored in my mind, along with mass murder or columbine style shooting. There's definitely a little of that in myself, but I think thats a combination of being an INTP and other factors. But yeah, the shadow function F thing really destroys me at times. My F when it takes over is usually overwhelming either to ecstacy or destruction. In the bad times, I could easily take a life or my own. Some level of insanity I suppose, but I could justify it with rational though as well, making it even more dangerous.

[tragula]

To clarify, perhaps we cannot alter our basic personalities in major ways. But as far as what we do with our lives, I think there is always choice. So, in that more important sense, we do in fact decide who we want to be.

Violence to others is irrational, and just does not compute. Except in strictly unavoidable self defense situations.

[Chill]

Violence to others is irrational, and just does not compute. Except in strictly unavoidable self defense situations.

Or when someone steps on your brand new shoes. Just kidding...

[waxwing]

Manic-Depressive Illness and the Artistic Temperment by Key Redfield Jamison.

Jamison has manic-depression and in this book writes very scientifically, and often poetically, about the relationship between between mental illness and genius. She calls it the artistic temperment, but really I do not see it as so much for artists only (i.e painters, composers, poets, playwrights, etc.) but for those who have a kind of divergent thinking style that may naturally lead to more periods of creativity and flashes of brilliance.

As an INTP and a person with mental illness, this book definitely is one of the most beat-up books I own.

[tragula]

I thought about this stuff a bit more, and I remebered how much "darker" I was when I was in school. I remember that I was enamored with this French Poet/writer self dubbed Le Compte de Lautreaumont, who wrote a dark gothic surreal book called Maldoror, about a really crazy wicked man. It was hard to find at the time and I had to order it specially! Since then I've decided it was a peice of junk and tossed it.

I also ran out and bought American Psycho when that book came out and was censured. I liked some of the author's earlier stuff, and I thought it was terrible that some people wanted to supress it. I couldn't even read a few pages of it it was so bad.

So my theory is that perhaps INTPs are the kind of people who take a flashlight and explore the darker corners of the brain, because it's there. This type of fascination soon becomes tiresome and spooky.

I never could stand Serial Killer movies though. I always thought Silence of the Lambs was Disturbing, and that people who liked it were sick!

Here is a website with fun quotes on madness:

http://home.moravian.edu/users/bio/mecjj01/writ100fall04/writ100quotes.html

[Dman]

We don't ultimately choose who we are, at least entirely. If I could choose, I probably would be an ENTP instead of an INTP.

I've...understood how a serial killer could kill. Murder is another thing I've explored in my mind, along with mass murder or columbine style shooting. There's definitely a little of that in myself, but I think thats a combination of being an INTP and other factors. But yeah, the shadow function F thing really destroys me at times. My F when it takes over is usually overwhelming either to ecstacy or destruction. In the bad times, I could easily take a life or my own. Some level of insanity I suppose, but I could justify it with rational though as well, making it even more dangerous.

Wow, that's a pretty serious statement. I think it's more the "other factors" rather than being an INTP. An INTP knows that it is not rational or logical to randomly kill people, am I correct? I can't possibly fathom why a person would want to murder someone else in cold blood. What is to be gained or understood? Only possible reason I could imagine would be a severely selfish perspective to see what it would "feel" like, which is of course irrational.

Killing someone in defense of oneself or due to a perceived threat or injustice I can fathom, but not a random cold killing. Highly illogical, captain.

[SheepDog]

If there were an INTP-correlated reason for doing something as cold blooded as this, I'd imagine it was to see if one could get away with it. I don't think that lends itself to serial murder though, since once you've figured it out, there's little reason to do it again.

[mgb]

I would say that money is the difference.

[Chill]

I never could stand Serial Killer movies though. I always thought Silence of the Lambs was Disturbing, and that people who liked it were sick!

What movies one likes has is no indicator of mental health. Sorry, but stuff like that is a pet peeve of mine. (Mainly as a D&D player, and video/computer gamer, I'm tired of being called mentally unstable, violent and/or satanic, when there is no empirical evidence to back up such accusations.)

Oh and, Silence of the Lambs is nothing. You should see some of Takashi Miike's movies.

[jimkopelli]

I think the saying is "Genius and madness are seperated only by degrees of success."

Oddly enough, I first came across it on a Magic card... Chill, try living in the Bible Belt.

[cjs55]

"An INTP knows that it is not rational or logical to randomly kill people, am I correct? I can't possibly fathom why a person would want to murder someone else in cold blood."

You haven't thought hard enough about it. I suppose the closest thing to what I am thinking is the scene in Fight Club, when Tyler Durden threatens to kill the clerk, and as a side effect makes him understand that he is taking his life for granted. But thats still not it exactly by any means.

Some premises lead you to some natural rational conclusions, and if you accept the same premises that I do, which you probably don't, then you would come to many of my same conclusions.

As far as the rationality goes, death is inevitable, and if that death could lead to postive change, I would be 100% for it whether it be my own or anyone else's.

I don't really expect to say more on the subject, its just too complex and personal to get into. Anyways, the extreme hopelessness and futility that surrounded those thoughts has dissapated now. There is not too much reason to mull over the past, just take from experience and move on.

[synchronous]

What do the rest of your think? Could many of those society considers mad or insane be INTPs or similar that can't seem to find a meeting point between their perception of things and the world around them?


Theodore Kaczynski (unabomber) is considered a 5W6, a good example of a 5 at terribly unhealthy levels. But then again, there are other Enneagram types that just as unhealthy and express their disintegration with the same capacity for destructiveness. Eights for example can become sadistic sociopaths at their lowest level (Saddam Hussein?), and Two's can murder in a fit of passion. The Six's unhealthy paranoia can drive the 'nice, quiet neighbour' to do something violent. I think I've seen Timothy McVey typed as a E6, ISTJ. IMO - some of those in society considered mad or insane are INTPs but I wouldn't say classify it as majority.

[synchronous]

I never could stand Serial Killer movies though. I always thought Silence of the Lambs was Disturbing, and that people who liked it were sick!

Interesting comment. Many of the so-called sicko or weird movies (and among my favorites) are either directed, written and/or produced by the likes of 5W4 types. Examples: David Lynch, Stanley Kubrick, Tim Burton, Stephen King. Have you ever seen A Clockwork Orange by Stanley Kubrick? Weirdest movie I've ever seen. Take a look at his Bio/Filmography:

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000040/bio

It reads like an INTPs life. Ah, the irony. LOL.

[tragula]

Obviously I'm in a minority here in my lack of appreciation for violent movies! When I say "sick" it's a TP "sick" not an "FJ" sick. Picture mild disgust and bewilderment, not harsh dramatic disaproval of someone elses tastes in film.

I HAVE seen Clockwork Orange, I watched it repeatedly in High School with friends, enjoying it immensely at the time. It is a very appropriate example, as it is well made art, pretty intelectual, and great social commentary. I seem to vaguely remember some controversy over the ending, with the author of the book having an English ending and an American ending, the American ending (I think!?) chosen for the movie. Just mentioning that because it changes the whole moral of the story and is an interesting footnote.

Movies as clever as Clockwork Orange can be very seductive. I still agree with the idea that the mold conventional society sucks most people in with--no brains job, small apartment, small mind, fake plastic life, you will reproduce for the benefit of society--is very conformist, repulsive, mind-numbing, and tame.

And as noted above I appreciate the freedom the idea of "no rules" can give someone, and the urge to boldly rebel against society. Especially if someone is "pushed" over the edge. I just think that outlook ends up being even more of an illusion. That is to say that mindless destruction is ultimately giving in to the irrational, often just for the sake of a rush of adrenaline or power-trip.

It is a complicated subject and I certainly don't have all the answers, but if I had to some it up in a nutshell I would say that "live and let live" makes much more sense, and is a lot more FUN for everyone in the long run.

[prometheusdestroyed]

I can't possibly fathom why a person would want to murder someone else in cold blood. What is to be gained or understood? Only possible reason I could imagine would be a severely selfish perspective to see what it would "feel" like, which is of course irrational.


I often have done stuff to see what it feels like, believing that it would give me some enlightenment. To me it seems logical although not usually successful. In The Outsider, does the chap not kill the other guy because he has a gun and can't really think of a good reason not to? I think he was short on feeling and thought perhaps this would connect him. It doesn't, but worth a shot (geddit?)

[jimkopelli]

Most of Kubrick's films were weird as hell anyway. 2001 was guaranteed 47 times trippier than the book, Full Metal Jacket was way out there... and I'll never think of Singing In The Rain the same way again... Hey, Edmond! Get your avatar in here!

[CENTIPEDE HEAD]

Stanley Kubrick and David Lynch make the strangest and most interesting films. There's a challenge in them, and I find I remember their films long after I've forgotten those of other directors. Even later films by them are just as good. "Eyes Wide Shut" and "Mullholland Drive" are both films that captured my interest. They have such enigmatic, eerie atmospherics. Kubrick's dead now, but I hear Lynch has a new movie in the works.

[CENTIPEDE HEAD]

I wouldn't think any certain personality type may be more prone to violent madness. Madness, like intelligence, can be found in all variations. There is the movie stereotype of the evil genius bad guy such as Hannibal Lecter in Silence of the Lambs. I think those are probably rare. But if ever there
were an example of a possible INTP that went over the edge, it would be this guy:
http://www.crimelibrary.com/terrorists_spies/terrorists/kaczynski/1.html?sect=22

[s0978]

Anyway. I don't think the INTP personality would have to have all these mental health issues. I mean it's one thing to be non-conformist, innovative, eccentric and anti social. And quite another to be psychotic. In a nutshell, hah hah, I think that people who are more detached and rational would be less likely to do harm.
I just made a post in the bipolar thread...I don't know where we are chatting about what..

But I tend to suspect that there is no hard line between crazy and not. Sure, there are definitely different ends of the spectrum, but no definite line. And I have never really bought that type is genetically manifest, I think it could be largely a nuture issue.

So I have often wondered if people heavy on the T. for example, as opposed to F, if this isn't a consequence of an emotional defense mechanism. Like some threshold of pain in formative years leads to the T preference... seems like a lot of people in these forums can't stand their parents, for example. *nods knowingly*

[Trolsk]

But I tend to suspect that there is no hard line between crazy and not. Sure, there are definitely different ends of the spectrum, but no definite line.Reminds me of the quote "the difference between genius and madness is defined only by success".


And I have never really bought that type is genetically manifest, I think it could be largely a nuture issue.I believe there might be a genetical factor to typological fit, just as in looks and intelligence. It follows from the assumptions that we are given strong points in brain functionality, and that their usage is met with a relatively stronger reward from stimulation. In effect, we would be partially led to our personalities. IOW: Brains, like bodies, have natural fit.

In my family I have noticed that one sister & aunt (ESTJ), other sister & mother (ESFP), and me & grandfather (INTP) share type.


So I have often wondered if people heavy on the T. for example, as opposed to F, if this isn't a consequence of an emotional defense mechanism. Like some threshold of pain in formative years leads to the T preference... seems like a lot of people in these forums can't stand their parents, for example. *nods knowingly*My oldest friend has had the most stable and nurturing upbringing I've witnessed. He's quite clearly INTJ, and doesn't mind being called "rule machine". Just adding.

[Burble]

At least I admit it: I'm insane. That's right, and people who claim to be "normal" or "well-adjusted" creep me out.