Taoism

[tragula]

I have developed a strong interest in Taoism lately. But I am having a really hard time with it in a way. Because it is so undefinable, and because there is no real structure to the belief system, I find it really hard to really grasp properly, and consequently to consciously apply daily.

For reference here are some notes I've swiped from somewhere:

"Taoism takes its name from the word "Tao" ("the Way"), the ancient Chinese name for the ordering principle that makes cosmic harmony possible. Taoism is not in-action, but non-forced action. Taoism--a person's conduct should be governed by instinct and conscience. Lao Tzu believed that human life, like everything else in the universe, is constantly influenced by outside forces. He believed "simplicity" to be the key to truth and freedom. Lao Tzu encouraged his followers to observe, and seek to understand the laws of nature; to develop intuition and build up personal power; and to use that power to lead life with love, rather than with force."

[Mysticforce]

This sounds to me more like an ethics than a spiritual world view. Perhaps your problems stem from trying to employ it as the latter.

[Sackanaka]

i wonder if you like zen too, which is kinda like the Japanese-ified Tao (i think they were convergently founded; the Chinese even thought Japanese copied Zen from their Tao). I do like zen/tao philosophy, but even they have their flaws. I don't think I need to ritualize meditation to seek "the truth", my own truth. It does really stimulate the N and P though huh? ;)
*btw... is rational morality what it sounds like? not an actual religion is it?

[tragula]

Don't know much about zen.... sounds similar though. I don't think Taosim even pushes meditation. I don't think there are any real guidelines for practicing/being it.

Rational Morality, yeah, I just made that up :-)

I suppose that Taoism is actually an ethics thing on a certain level, come to think of it. But I think it's supposed to be more than that. The whole Cosmic Harmony thing seems to be aiming higher than just doing the right thing in a sticky situation. It's amazing how monastic your life can become if you really start simplifying. Hmmm.

[Sackanaka]

Hmmm.
Hmmm indeed. happppy

[SheepDog]

I first read about Taoism about 15 years ago. I wasn't ready for it at the time, in a practical sense, but the concepts seemed attractive. I realize that my material desires were a big contradiction, and probably the main (but not the only) thing that kept me from exploring further.

More recently, I've come back to it, in an intellectual sense. The material desires are still with me, but I am more ready to question them than I was then. I'm also a lot less judging than I was then, which adds to the recent interest.

[Last Song]

I had an interest in Taoism for a while a year or two ago ... I think it came about when I was bored and searching for good quotes and stumbled on one by Lao Tzu ... then I searched and found his writing Tao Te Ching and read a translation of that ... quite interesting. If I was to have faith in any religion or spiritual way of life, it would be Taoism. ... but I don't think I know enough about it yet ... or other religions.

[Sam172]

I have read about Taoism. In fact I own a translation of the Tao Te Ching by Lao Tzu, and a copy of the Inner Chapters by Chuang Tzu (another, great Taoist writer((s) depending on, like Lao Tzu, if you believe it was just one person or a group of people). It's all very interesting.
I find this webpage to be of great information and insight
http://www.truetao.org/enter.htm

[Lucas]

i wonder if you like zen too, which is kinda like the Japanese-ified Tao (i think they were convergently founded; the Chinese even thought Japanese copied Zen from their Tao). I do like zen/tao philosophy, but even they have their flaws. I don't think I need to ritualize meditation to seek "the truth", my own truth.

Indian buddhism crossed over to China, mixed with taoism, resulting in Chan. Chan is just the Chinese word for Zen. Zen and Chan are essentially the same.

I've been a lay zen student for about 3 years. Zen doesn't seek any "truth", that isn't the purpose of zazen (zen meditation). It isn't very ritualized at all compared to almost all other religions. It may seem formal, but then, who could actually have the discipline to meditate for two 25 minute rounds without any structure.

Zen helps me shut off that incessant mental chatter, and just be alive without my discursive mind going 100 mph. The pop-culture idea of 'zen' is far off from what it really is.

[Sackanaka]

who could actually have the discipline to meditate for two 25 minute rounds without any structure.
I thought I did when I go to the park and stare at the sky :confused: but not so sure since I'm not even a Practitioner.
I do understand where you're coming from though; it took me a few days of enthusiastic reading of the book "Zen Flesh, Zen Bones" to let the messages sink into me. As far as I know, I will probably never fully understand what the original Zen masters intended to imply, but I also think (they would agree with) that it doesn't matter. Mu. Right?
As for that incessant chatter, I usually rely on my introverted tendencies to move into isolated areas and socially block off those in my way. :)
I guess it's harder in urbanized areas though. Good thing I'm in Omaha!

[cjs55]

Tao seems to me to be mainly the understanding of nature free from any societal or previous valuation. I love what I've read of it, but also am deeply confused often. This doesn't bother me though.

[SheepDog]

Thanks for the link, Sam172.

[Lucas]

As far as I know, I will probably never fully understand what the original Zen masters intended to imply, but I also think (they would agree with) that it doesn't matter. Mu. Right?


Ahhh, Mu. No a lot of it doesn't make much sense. Koans like mu are meant to break through our heavy relience on rational, discriminating thinking and into direct experience.

After sitting consistently for a while now and reading zen literature, I've begun to understand what they are saying more and more. It relies on a lot of unique terminology, like 'emptiness' and 'just sitting', concepts that have no real equivalent in the english language. It can take a while to get past the way it is written(translated ancient chinese/japanese), to see the actual content of the writings.

[tragula]

That link really is a great resource Sam172. Very helpful and informative! :)

[Arioch]

I always thought that Tao was more a state of being rather then anything else.

One becomes it rather then lives it.

[SheepDog]

I do understand where you're coming from though; it took me a few days of enthusiastic reading of the book "Zen Flesh, Zen Bones" to let the messages sink into me. As far as I know, I will probably never fully understand what the original Zen masters intended to imply, but I also think (they would agree with) that it doesn't matter. Mu. Right?

I picked up a copy of this book, since you mentioned it, and it was cheap ;). Interesting reading. I suppose that one could ponder it for quite some time, and never have all of it sink in. I couldn't help but wonder whether some of it was lost in translation. Another thing that struck me about this, which also strikes me about many 'eastern philosophies' is that they seem more congruous with their society as a whole, whereas they seem really out of place in the west. Not that that's a bad thing...

[Sackanaka]

I picked up a copy of this book, since you mentioned it, and it was cheap ;). Interesting reading. I suppose that one could ponder it for quite some time, and never have all of it sink in. I couldn't help but wonder whether some of it was lost in translation. Another thing that struck me about this, which also strikes me about many 'eastern philosophies' is that they seem more congruous with their society as a whole, whereas they seem really out of place in the west. Not that that's a bad thing...

first of all: :thumbup:
Like all old scripture-type documents, ambiguity is expected due to language/chonology/cultural differences. With Zen though, that ambiguity is encouraged to be addressed.. without really doing much addressing per se. Not sure how to do it as they did, but I think it's a great excercise in breaking free from the limitations of what we commonly accept as logic. It doesn't seek to explain through direct commandment, but rather places full emphasis on reflection.

[SheepDog]

first of all: :thumbup:
Like all old scripture-type documents, ambiguity is expected due to language/chonology/cultural differences. With Zen though, that ambiguity is encouraged to be addressed.. without really doing much addressing per se. Not sure how to do it as they did, but I think it's a great excercise in breaking free from the limitations of what we commonly accept as logic. It doesn't seek to explain through direct commandment, but rather places full emphasis on reflection.
Agreed. But your point about logic is interesing. By that I mean that when/where a lot of this was written, I don't think concepts of logic had become as develped or as prevalent as there are here, and now. But I could be wrong ;)

[Sackanaka]

Zen for the contemporary mind is still Zen ;P

[Sam172]

That link really is a great resource Sam172. Very helpful and informative! :)
Spread the love :)

[euterpenc]

I've read some Zen too incuding "Zen Flesh, Zen Bones", but i've also read Nietzsche so I'm not sure what beliefs are right now. It's just something you gotta find for yourself. Nietzsche was a freaking genius lol.

[Arioch]

I've read some Zen too incuding "Zen Flesh, Zen Bones", but i've also read Nietzsche so I'm not sure what beliefs are right now. It's just something you gotta find for yourself. Nietzsche was a freaking genius lol.

Nietzsche was stupid and abnormal.
Leo Tolstoy
Russian mystic & novelist (1828 - 1910)

[SheepDog]

Here's another interesting link, for those who might be interested:
http://www.centertao.org/

[wezl]

I have developed a strong interest in Taoism lately. But I am having a really hard time with it in a way. Because it is so undefinable, and because there is no real structure to the belief system, I find it really hard to really grasp properly, and consequently to consciously apply daily.
"

Based on your comments, I wonder if Taoism and INTP aren't at diametric poles or something. Yes, it is interesting but not in an intellectual way. To me it seems like its a little like eating cotton candy, with nothing to chew. However, if you can connect to it, I wish you good luck (do you believe in luck?).

[tragula]

Exactly, it's like developing a totally different corner of your brain... and it isn't necessarily going to connect well and play nicely with the other parts of your brain.

Nothing to chew is exactly right. Taoism is about non-chewing! I'm still struggling a bit to connect to it though...

I believe in luck! Good and Bad. (Luck would be a good thread topic actually...)

[Zero Angel]

Zen, Taoism and other eastern philosophies are difficult to understand, meaning they dont really sink in until you begin relating the maxims contained in them to parts of your life. Then it seems to become much more clear. My beliefs were built on teachings from the Art of War (which are heavily influenced by Taoism) and even though I bought the book 3 years ago, everytime I read it I can still glean a new insight out of it. Therefore my beliefs are ultimately a blend between taoism and rational morality.

Perhaps I haven't properly opened my mind to conventional religions, but I still have trouble believing in a higher power. I think that we should rely on ourselves instead of something that is outside of ourselves.

"Dont blame me, blame yourself... or god"
I like that saying for some reason.

[floid]

Nothing to chew is exactly right. Taoism is about non-chewing! I'm still struggling a bit to connect to it though...


Taoism, Buddhism, Zen, and various modern variations of them are all fingers pointing the quester to advaita (non-duality).

Since rational thought cannot occur without duality they all aim in one way or another to get you to stop thinking long enough to see, feel, know what is when the incessant chatter of the ego (the rational, thinking mind) is silenced.

What they point to is:

To the rational mind -- nothing
To the ego -- death
To the spirit -- life
To the body -- acceptance

To me the experience of shutting up (internally and externally) and totally letting be what IS the summum bonum of all religious ambition.

If you stop thinking them thoughts just sort of occur in that emptiness within you.
You bemusedly observe them as just more instances of form floating in the formless void.
Once you considered all these thought to be yourself.
Now you see that they are only phenomena occuring in the formless void.

The rational mind will savage this to it's dying day.

But then, every rational mind has it's dying day, so that's not a problem.

[tragula]

Wow, extremely well put.
"Stop Thinking" (Analysing). I think that's exactly the answer I've been searching for...
Who knew!
Now I just have to find the Off switch. LOL
And the On switch for those moments when thinking may come in handy...

[Sackanaka]

So uhh, anyone made correlations from Zen/Daoism and the Gospel of Thomas?
I assume that's kinda what Birdsnest was hinting at?

[misutii]

Nietzsche was stupid and abnormal.
Leo Tolstoy
Russian mystic & novelist (1828 - 1910)

i'm sure the majority of the western population would have agreed that Nietzsche and anyone else writing 'god is dead' was stupid and abnormal in the 19th century, i'd say he was abnormal, however, from my own experience I would both disagree with him being stupid and also with taking the word of a 19th century mystic and novelist to heart

[floid]

Wow, extremely well put.
"Stop Thinking" (Analysing). I think that's exactly the answer I've been searching for...
Who knew!
Now I just have to find the Off switch. LOL
And the On switch for those moments when thinking may come in handy...

Yep that's it in a nutshell.

You need to learn how to work the switch, though.

That's where most folks just get frustrated and give up.

Don't fret, though, if you don't get it now you will get it later because it is the inevitable, and logical, conclusion of all biological life.
:)