Arabs vs. Jews; the statistics

[Pooja]

I was just emailed the following from an old high school friend (who just happens to be jewish).

INTERESTING STATISTICS ABOUT ARABS & JEWS

The Global Islamic population is approximately 1,200,000,000, or 20% of the world population.
They have received the following Nobel Prizes:

Literature:
1988 - Najib Mahfooz

Peace:
1978 - Mohamed Anwar El-Sadat
1994 - Yaser Arafat:
1990 - Elias James Corey
1999 - Ahmed Zewai

Economics:
(none)

Medicine:
1960 - Peter Brian Medawar
1998 - Ferid Mourad

The Global Jewish population is approximately 14,000,000, or about 0.02% of the world population.

They have received the following Nobel Prizes:

Literature:
1910 - Paul Heyse
1927 - Henri Bergson
1958 - Boris Pasternak
1966 - Shmuel Yosef Agnon
1966 - Nelly Sachs
1976 - Saul Bellow
1978 - Isaac Bashevis Singer
1981 - Elias Canetti
1987 - Joseph Brodsky
1991 - Nadine Gordimer World

Peace:
1911 - Alfred Fried
1911 - Tobias Michael Carel Asser
1968 - Rene Cassin
1973 - Henry Kissinger
1978 - Menachem Begin
1986 - Elie Wiesel
1994 - Shimon Peres
1994 - Yitzhak Rabin

Physics:
1905 - Adolph Von Baeyer
1906 - Henri Moissan
1907 - Albert Abraham Michelson
1908 - Gabriel Lippmann
1910 - Otto Wallach
1915 - Richard Willstaetter
1918 - Fritz Haber
1921 - Albert Einstein
1922 - Niels Bohr
1925 - James Franck
1925 - Gustav Hertz
1943 - Gustav Stern
1943 - George Charles de Hevesy
1944 - Isidor Issac Rabi
1952 - Felix Bloc h
1954 - Max Born
1958 - Igor Tamm
1959 - Emilio Segre
1960 - Donald A. Glaser
1961 - Robert Hofstadter
1961 - Melvin Calvin
1962 - Lev Davidovich Landau
1962 - Max Ferdinand Perutz
1965 - Richard Phillips Feynman
1965 - Julian Schwinger
1969 - Murray Gell-Mann
1971 - Dennis Gabor
1972 - William Howard Stein
1973 - Brian David Josephson
1975 - Benjamin Mottleson
1976 - Burton Richter
1977 - Ilya Prigogine
1978 - Arno Allan Penzias
1978 - Peter L Kapitza
1979 - Stephen Weinberg
1979 - Sheldon Glashow
1979 - Herbert Charle s Brown
1980 - Paul Berg
1980 - Walter Gilbert
1981 - Roald Hoffmann
1982 - Aaron Klug
1985 - Albert A. Hauptman
1985 - Jerome Karle
1986 - Dudley R. Herschbach
1988 - Robert Huber
1988 - Leon Lederman
1988 - Melvin Schwartz
1988 - Jack Steinberger
1989 - Sidney Altman
1990 - Jerome Friedman
1992 - Rudolph Marcus
1995 - Martin Perl
2000 - Alan J. Heeger

Economics:
1970 - Paul Anthony Samuelson
1971 - Simon Kuznets
1972 - Kenneth Joseph Arrow
1975 - Leonid Kantorovich
1976 - Milton Friedman
1978 - Herbert A. Simon
1980 - Lawrence Robert Klein
1985 - Franco Modigliani
1987 - Robert M. Solow
1990 - Harry Markowitz
1990 - Merton Miller
1992 - Gary Becker
1993 - Robert Fogel

Medicine:
1908 - Elie Metchnikoff
1908 - Paul Erlich
1914 - Robert Barany
1922 - Otto Meyerhof
1930 - Karl Landsteiner
1931 - Otto Warburg
1936 - Otto Loewi
1944 - Joseph Erlanger
1944 - Herbert Spencer Gasser
1945 - Ernst Boris Chain
1946 - Hermann Joseph Muller
1950 - Tadeus Reichstein
1952 - Selman Abra ham Waksman
1953 - Hans Krebs
1953 - Fritz Albert Lipmann
1958 - Joshua Lederberg
1959 - Arthur Kornberg
1964 - Konrad Bloch
1965 - Francois Jaco b
1965 - Andre Lwoff
1967 - George Wald
1968 - Marshall W. Nirenberg
1969 - Salvador Luria
1970 - Julius Axelrod
1970 - Sir Bernard Katz
1972 - Gerald Maurice Edelman
1975 - Howard Martin Temin
1976 - Baruch S. Blumberg
1977 - Roselyn Sussman Yalow
1978 - Daniel Nathans
1980 - Baruj Benacerraf
1984 - Cesar Milstein
1985 - Michael Stuart Brown
1985 - Joseph L. Goldstein
1986 - Stanley Cohen [& Rita Levi-Montalcini]
1988 - Gertrude Elion
1989 - Harold Varmus
1991 - Erwin Neher
1991 - Bert Sakmann
1993 - Richard J. Roberts
1993 - Phillip Sharp
1994 - Alfred Gilman
1995 - Edward B. Lewis
------------------------------------------------
Obviously, this is some sort of jewish pride thing-- I've seen things like this for indian pride ("hey, we invented the zero, aren't we amazing!?").

But at the same time, it makes me wonder, as to WHY there are so few islamic nobel prize winners.

[MacGuffin]

But at the same time, it makes me wonder, as to WHY there are so few islamic nobel prize winners.
Culture. Possibly a bit of genetics as well (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews#Achievement).

[attila_the_hunny]

Culture. Possibly a bit of genetics as well (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews#Achievement).

I wad going to post that, dammit! Jew. <_<

[nomir_dva]

It's the International Jewish Conspiracy, obviously.

[Stoned_Rider]

Didn't you know?!!
Jews invented pornography for the sole purpose of corrupting Muslim children :rolleyes:

Q: Why does an Arab brain cost much more than a non-Arab brain?
A: Coz it's never been used!! Muahahahahaha!!!1111one1111!11!1

whatever...

[Rice-Tactics]

The Jews also conquered Central Park. Is anyone here Jewish?

[attila_the_hunny]

The Jews also conquered Central Park. Is anyone here Jewish?

Ehem, Dr. Haight.

[demagogic_schizoid]

I posted a link to a video called "Planet of the Arabs", which is a take on western portrayal of Arabs in the media, in Purgatory as it is offensive...

I think the reason for the stats in the OP might be to do with the relative wealth of Islamic and Jewish people and of the countries in which they live, therefore affecting the access they have to the basic ncessities and education which are neccessary if one is to pursue a great academic career. Also, think about who is giving the prizes...I would guess a lot more Jews than Arabs are involved in the process

[Rice-Tactics]

Ehem, Dr. Haight.

What? its not an insult.

[attila_the_hunny]

What? its not an insult.

I didn't mean it as such.

[nomir_dva]

I posted a link to a video called "Planet of the Arabs", which is a take on western portrayal of Arabs in the media, in Purgatory as it is offensive...

I think the reason for the stats in the OP might be to do with the relative wealth of Islamic and Jewish people and of the countries in which they live, therefore affecting the access they have to the basic ncessities and education which are neccessary if one is to pursue a great academic career. Also, think about who is giving the prizes...I would guess a lot more Jews than Arabs are involved in the process

However, I would also hypothesize that for much of the Twentieth Century, anti-semitism was a significant factor in such things as the selection of Nobel Prize Winners, which makes those results all the more striking.

[demagogic_schizoid]

Well whichever way you look at it, Henry Kissinger won a Nobel Prize in 1973 for bringing peace to Vietnam, and Ghandi was nominated 5 times but never won one. It seems that the Nobel Foundation was/is (?) a very Eurocentric organisation.

[meshou]

The Jews are winning!!!! :banana:

[nomir_dva]

Well whichever way you look at it, Henry Kissinger won a Nobel Prize in 1973 for bringing peace to Vietnam, and Ghandi was nominated 5 times but never won one. It seems that the Nobel Foundation was/is (?) a very Eurocentric organisation.

There's no doubt about its Eurocentrism and occasionally weird decisions. Tolstoy never won the prize either.

[Arioch]

I'm going to play devils advocate here.

Consider this, during 800 - 1300 AD most of the scientific progress in the world was done by Muslims. How come that happened then and not now?

One possible explanation is that there was a scholarly climate, social stability and relative peace. This is a very fertile enviroment for scientific development. That is something lacking there, but not in Europe, America and possible Japan. Which is where we have the most scientific development these days.

Looking at world history I would have to say that the current situation is a current one. Whether it takes a few decades or a few centuries it will shift. Perhaps China will be the next scientific giant

[charred_heart]

But at the same time, it makes me wonder, as to WHY there are so few islamic nobel prize winners.

Just look up the stats for Arab and Jewish literacy rates in the world and you'll have your answer (partly)

[MacGuffin]

Just look up the stats of Arab and Jewish literacy rates in the world and you'll have your answer (partly)
I thought (Islamic) Arabs were required to be literate to read the Qur'an?

[charred_heart]

I thought (Islamic) Arabs were required to be literate to read the Qur'an?good point! Makes you wonder...

[PenguinHunter]

I thought (Islamic) Arabs were required to be literate to read the Qur'an?

Egypt has shockingly low literacy rates (I've seen estimates at ~55%). Muslim North African countries like Somalia, Mauritania and Nigeria have higher literacy rates than comparable non-Muslim African countries but still below 50%.

Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Jordan, Iran, Yemen and even Oman (to a much lesser extent) have poverty problems that aren't comparable to Israel, Western Europe and the USA. This means less higher education all around and a much lower probability of such prizes. Cultural bias and Eurocentrism aside, I'd think that would be the main reason.

[Lee]

Just look up the stats for Arab and Jewish literacy rates in the world and you'll have your answer (partly)Even if only 5% of arabs could read, they'd still number about 4 times the number of jews in the world.

[Stoned_Rider]

This thread reminded me of a rant by Qaradawi once, having a go at his own people :D
Read it, for there is a lot of truth in it!


We use trains and planes, but they are not our trains or planes. The (Westerners) manufacture them and export them to us. True, we can buy the most magnificent things in the world products for our homes and for ourselves. Our people can buy the most luxurious cars, Rolls-Royce or Mercedes 500 or 700, models S, M, and L with all the luxuries. We own them, but we don't manufacture them. We don't even produce a single nail in any of these cars. Others do this for us.

The income of the entire Arab world, including the oil-producing countries, does not reach the that of a European country, such as Spain. Spain ? let alone Germany, France, Britain, or Italy. Just Spain, which is at the bottom of the list of industrial countries... The income of the entire Arab world does not reach it. How come? Because we don't work, and if we do work, we don't do it professionally.

They conducted a survey of the average time that a government employee spends working in a certain Arab country. The average was 27 minutes a day. 27 minutes! The rest of the time he drinks coffee, reads newspapers, and goes on errands here and there. Only a small number of people work. The rest do not. :D

In the mid 1970s I went to Germany. We arrived during in the morning. I asked the guy who took me from the airport to the convention hall? As I was passing through the empty streets, I asked him how come the streets were not busy, like in our countries. He said: "People are at work." After 7 p.m. he took me back to the hotel, and the streets were empty. I said to him: "What's going on, the streets are empty again." He said: people are back home from work, and they are exhausted. All they want is to eat their dinner, watch the news, and then go to bed, because early next morning they have to wake up for hard work. They commute more than an hour to work and back, and spend an hour at lunch. They work non-stop.

We are a nation that doesn't work. How can we develop if we don't work? When we do work, we don't do it professionally. We keep saying "Don't worry, later, later?" Islam teaches us to do things professionally. Doing things professionally is a religious duty. The Prophet said that Allah ordered to excel in everyhting. He imposed excellence and professionalism. Professionalism must be followed in everything. "If you kill, do it properly, and if you slaughter, do it properly." Even when killing, you must do well.

Unfortunately, we do not excel in either military or civil industries. We import everything from needles to missiles. This is our nation. We still haven't manufactured an engine in our Arab countries. We assemble parts, but have no manufacturing industries. India has manufactured a car, and even a plane, while we still go around in circles like a bull in who turns a grinding mill or a water weal until it reaches exactly where it started.

How come the Zionist gang has managed to be superior to us, despite being so few? It has become superior through knowledge, through technology, and through strength. It ahs become superior to us through work. We had the desert before our eyes but we didn't do anything with it. When they took over, they turned it into a green oasis. How can a nation that does not work progress? How can it grow?

http://memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=645

[Lee]

I think he has hit the nail on the head, more or less, but I don't have time to go into a long-winded explanation.

The interesting question is why arab culture is work-shy? Of course, the term 'arab culture' is misleading, afterall, depending where you look in any western culture you can find subsets of the population who are similarly work-shy. What is it about human nature that responds to these differing circumstances by generating different cultural attitudes to work? What can we do to change those circumstances?

[Hustler]

The interesting question is why arab culture is work-shy? Of course, the term 'arab culture' is misleading, afterall, depending where you look in any western culture you can find subsets of the population who are similarly work-shy. What is it about human nature that responds to these differing circumstances by generating different cultural attitudes to work? What can we do to change those circumstances?
It probably has something to do with the climate. It's a lot easier to work long days, week after week, in a place like Germany than it is in Egypt or hot-ass Iraq or Saudi Arabia. Hell, even Israel is a good 10 or 15 degrees cooler than most of the Middle-East and North Africa, thanks to its favorable geographical position. I don't know about you, but if I were out picking dates in the sweltering heat of the Middle-Eastern sun, all I'd be thinking about is when I got to go sit in the shade or go to sleep. Add to this that the Middle-East is behind the first world in terms of infrastructure, and it just compounds the severe disadvantage brought on by an extremely hot climate. Generally speaking, the only countries in very hot climates which manage to succeed are very small countries. Places like Singapore or, even in the Middle-East, Qatar or the UAE. A small country can do well by finding an economic base in tourism or niche industries and expanding from there -- in a way capitalizing on its climate. A larger country like Egypt simply cannot ramp its economy up on tourism.

[Dr. Haight]

hahaha, I can give you the Jewish perspective on this issue.

Believe it or not, this is a popular debate among the Orthodox community in which I was raised. And, I have sat around many tables in Yeshiva and Synagogue to hear this debate unfold. Fortunately, the same conclusion seemed to be reached every time:

In Judaism, education is not only of primary importance, but it is "sacred." That is to say, Jews are commanded to pursue education throughout there/our lives, and most take that commandment rather seriously. Yes I know that most Jews are not Orthodox, or even religious, however, the tradition is still embedded in the psyche of the average Jew. Furthermore, other concepts of Judaism prevail in this area as well; such as, "to fix the world." This is a big tenant even in Jewish secularism, and is maintained as the mantra for Jewish secular humanists.

Short answer: Education is "sacred" within Jewish religions, and even the non-religious adhere to this principal based on tradition - knowingly, or unknowingly.

[Stoned_Rider]

That's probably it - education and cultural upbringing. I know because most of my education was in an Arab country, the UAE. For starters, they never stress the importance of being critical and innovative - everything is conveniently spoon-fed and presented as undisputable fact. Blindly memorizing Arabic poems and Quranic verses is valued much more than individual creative work.

Also, they never teach us about the world around us - the major historical events that shaped humanity as we know it today; the rise and fall of earlier civilizations and the lessons learned from that; the importance of being efficient and productive in order to evolve as a nation. You'd be surprised at how little the Arabs know about world history, the evolution of political thought, philosophy, various systems of government etc..
Even when they do teach such things, they do their best in order to avoid constructive debate and analysis - they see those things as a serious danger to Islamic ideology.
So, while my cousins who were living in France and Germany at the time learned about the World Wars, Marxism, the Cold War, Einstein, Aristotle etc.. I was stuck learning about how great the Islamic Empire was, and how Muslims bravely defeated the Romans and Persians. As if somehow it is enough for us to know that at some point in history we used to be great.

Work is not valued in the Arab world as much as it is everywhere else. On the contrary. It is considered so shameful for an Arab to work in a place such as McDonald's, that he prefers to stay unemployed than have such a job. It's the Asian's job, they say. It's for "the lesser people". As if we're so fucking great ourselves. Most of the labour work is done by Pakistanis, Indians and Philippinos who work tirelessly under the blazing sun for well below the minimum wage.

It is utterly humiliating that countries such as India, who have much lower literacy rates and more widespread poverty than most Arab countries, are nuclear powers today and manufacture cars and even planes. Indians work, and they work hard, and they achieve. Despite everything. They give no excuses. They don't wait for sympathetic westerners to make up excuses for them either.

We simply can't be bothered to get our asses moving and do some work. The concepts of scholarly research, innovative work, contribution to humanity etc.. are completely alien to us. When I was asked at university to submit a critical literature review I was like "what the fuck is that??". We suck. I am ashamed of being part of such a nation.

[PenguinHunter]

That's probably it - education and cultural upbringing. I know because most of my education was in an Arab country, the UAE. For starters, they never stress the importance of being critical and innovative - everything is conveniently spoon-fed and presented as undisputable fact. Blindly memorizing Arabic poems and Quranic verses is valued much more than individual creative work.

Also, they never teach us about the world around us - the major historical events that shaped humanity as we know it today; the rise and fall of earlier civilizations and the lessons learned from that; the importance of being efficient and productive in order to evolve as a nation. You'd be surprised at how little the Arabs know about world history, the evolution of political thought, philosophy, various systems of government etc..
Even when they do teach such things, they do their best in order to avoid constructive debate and analysis - they see those things as a serious danger to Islamic ideology.

So, while my cousins who were living in France and Germany at the time learned about the World Wars, Marxism, the Cold War, Einstein, Aristotle etc.. I was stuck learning about how great the Islamic Empire was, and how Muslims bravely defeated the Romans and Persians. As if somehow it is enough for us to know that at some point in history we used to be great.

Hmm, what school(s) did you go to? If you don't want to say, were you at local schools or private ones?

I went to Choueifat for a while and I can agree with some of the points there. . . but then. . . Choueifat is a whooole different discussion (my god). I went to RAKESS for a while and a friend of mine went to the American School in Sharjah (whatever it's called). Both of them are good about incorporating modern world history, literature and critical theory (as far as it ever goes at high school anyway). But I've never heard much about the local schools so I'm kind of curious.

Anyway, at the very least, there are a lot of private schools to choose from, which offer more standard global programs of education. Actually compared to Britain, Canada and the US (either me or my parents have had significant experience in all of them) the education system in place in most private schools in the UAE is the best - even though most are modeled on British or French systems anyway.

Why did you stay at the school if it was so bad? (Or is it just in retrospect?)


Work is not valued in the Arab world as much as it is everywhere else. On the contrary. It is considered so shameful for an Arab to work in a place such as McDonald's, that he prefers to stay unemployed than have such a job. It's the Asian's job, they say. It's for "the lesser people". As if we're so fucking great ourselves. Most of the labour work is done by Pakistanis, Indians and Philippinos who work tirelessly under the blazing sun for well below the minimum wage.

The flip side of this is that if the jobs were offered at a high minimum wage (recently there was a minimum wage introduction) then the UAE couldn't afford to hire massive numbers of workers from India, Pakistan and the Phillipines. The current wages are mutually beneficial for all countries involved.

The only argument you might make is about working conditions which, in the past, have sometimes been very poor. The Emirates has changed a lot in the last 10 years though and human rights groups are becoming less critical.


It is utterly humiliating that countries such as India, who have much lower literacy rates and more widespread poverty than most Arab countries, are nuclear powers today and manufacture cars and even planes. Indians work, and they work hard, and they achieve. Despite everything. They give no excuses. They don't wait for sympathetic westerners to make up excuses for them either.

What countries are you comparing?

Morocco and Egypt have lower literacy rates than India. The Emirates doesn't seem like a very good example here simply because of the necessary decisions they make regarding the economy. They don't have the population base to become a manufacturing center so they have started (obviously) with natural resources and are shifting that to service industry with time.

Is nuclear power an important criteria for acheivement? (*looks over at the little guy with goofy glasses and a gigantic missle sitting in the corner*)

Perhaps you could explain this better.

[Huston]

Obviously, this is some sort of jewish pride thing-- I've seen things like this for indian pride ("hey, we invented the zero, aren't we amazing!?").

The odd thing about this is that zero appeared in south america (Mayans) before India.. oops..

[Huston]

I'm going to play devils advocate here.

Consider this, during 800 - 1300 AD most of the scientific progress in the world was done by Muslims. How come that happened then and not now?

Scientific progress.. They were nothing but stamp collectors. Students reading and writing interpretations and such. Arabanizing knowledge, like the Greeks Hellenizing everything they came by.

[david2341.]

jewish people can attribute a large part to dietary factors. not eating unclean meats doesnt apply only to jewish people.

[Huston]

jewish people can attribute a large part to dietary factors. not eating unclean meats doesnt apply only to jewish people. jew and jewish are not synonymous.

Jews (I am using Jew as being synonymous with Jewish) and Arabs have the same diet.

And what the hell is unclean (to clarify, I know what Kosher and Halal is) meat?

[david2341.]

clean and unclean meats as mentioned in leviticus.

[Huston]

clean and unclean meats as mentioned in leviticus.

most christians do not follow dietary law. jewish people were once the chosen people.

I already mentioned Kosher.. now what the hell is unclean. I dislike that word. We live in the 21st century. The term unclean meat should not exist without factual basis, and even then, unclean would be the wrong adjective.

What does "unclean" have to do with anything?

[Huston]

jewish people can partly attribute their superiority to dietary laws but that is as far as it goes.

No, they cannot attribute -let alone partly- anything on dietary laws.

[david2341.]

unclean is pork shellfish fish(no fins and no scales) rabbit squid fat(tallow lard)

clean: beef chicken duck fish(fins and scales) bison lamb butterfat(cow goat)

leviticus 11 ... clean meat from animals that chews the cud and with cloven hooves

[nomir_dva]

clean and unclean meats as mentioned in leviticus.

There are probably many non-Jews who don't eat pork, shellfish, predatory brids, crawling things, etc. What would that have to do with intellectual superiority?

[Huston]

unclean is pork shellfish fish(no fins and no scales) rabbit squid

clean: beef chicken duck fish(fins and scales) bison

Sigh.. (I already said I know the what is kosher) that does not answer the question. What is unclean? WHY? And what does it do? You have no scientific basis for this this.

[nomir_dva]

Sigh.. (I already said I know the what is kosher) that does not answer the question. What is unclean? WHY? And what does it do? You have no scientific basis for this this.

He's illustrating the self-referential structure of the Book of Leviticus. Instead of arguments, it contains cyclical analogies. That's why the Jews have a lot of Nobel Prizes.

[david2341.]

jewish people have been following dietary laws since the time of abraham. you guys had a 4,000 year head start.

get some pork and shellfish and examine it under a microscope. they are animals that were created to scavenge. pork is filled with trichina larvae.

[nomir_dva]

Chicken is probably the dirtiest meat that Western people consume. It's quite kosher, as far as I know.

[Huston]

jewish people have been following dietary laws since the time of abraham. you guys had a 4,000 year head start.

If Abraham even existed.


get some pork and shellfish and examine it under a microscope. they are animals that were created to scavenge. pork is filled with trichina larvae.

Trichina can easily be killed off through proper cooking. I guess those smart Jews are not smart enough to figure that out. Of all the cases of Trichina in the US, it mainly came from improperly cooked bear meat.

[david2341.]

pork and rat are ranked comparatively in the bible so does rat seem anymore appetizing after it has been cooked

if meat is sprinkled with salt and much of the water is pulled out ... can that also decrease the b12 and other water soluble vitamins

im aware that jewish people believe that if a gentile hits a jew then the gentile should be put to death
that the gentiles were born to be slaves to the jews

[Huston]

He's illustrating the self-referential structure of the Book of Leviticus. Instead of arguments, it contains cyclical analogies. That's why the Jews have a lot of Nobel Prizes.

I know :whistle:

[ptGatsby]

Trichina can easily be killed off through proper cooking. I guess those smart Jews are not smart enough to figure that out. Of all the cases of Trichina in the US, it mainly came from improperly cooked bear meat.


Curiously, I always thought that Muslims had a stricter diet than Christians? Though of course, it should of been the same... except that Muslims became stricter upon splitting from Christianity.

I didn't notice much difference during the various enlightment periods about diet preferences, across cultures or anything else. The whole argument is... well... stupid.



Scientific progress.. They were nothing but stamp collectors. Students reading and writing interpretations and such. Arabanizing knowledge, like the Greeks Hellenizing everything they came by.


And no, very much not this. There was interaction with Greeks and the like, but they improved and developped beyond them significantly.

[Huston]

And no, very much not this. There was interaction with Greeks and the like, but they improved and developped beyond them significantly.

I didn't say they got it from the Greeks, they got it from various other sources beside them. Of course there were revisions and such, but I wouldn't go to the degree of innovation of some of the Jews on that Nobel Prize list.

[Huston]

many or most jewish people don't believe in christ unless they are messianic jews so it wouldnt matter to point out that jewish people were descendants of abraham

im aware that jewish people believe that if a gentile hits a jew then the gentile should be put to death
that the gentiles were born to be slaves to the jews

What the hell do these two things have to do with this tread?


and if an egg contains a spot of blood then it cant be eaten

Eww.. I stop eating eggs for months when I found blood in an egg (I know that sounds irrational).. wow! Gotta be impressed with those Jews again.

[david2341.]

highlights the so perceived superiority

[Huston]

highlights the so perceived superiority of the jewish

??? You need to work on your arguments. Even with intuition there is too much information missing to grasp your stance/opinion/argument.

[david2341.]

i was just arguing for the dietary factor basis

[Lurker]

The Jews are winning!!!! :banana:

Israeli Jews have a Martyr Complex that makes their culture look, well, narcissistic. They need to lose the precious attitude already.

So, anyway, I think they've won plenty in the past 30-40 years. At what point do the Jewish People loss the victim status? What about the genocides that went on in Africa? Rwandan Hutus and Tutsis, for instance. They were black Africans, though, so the world didn't consider them important. No oil in Rwanda either, go figure. I will venture to say that Africans have suffered just as much as the Jewish Community.

It's time to pass the victim stick.

[ptGatsby]

I didn't say they got it from the Greeks, they got it from various other sources beside them. Of course there were revisions and such, but I wouldn't go to the degree of innovation of some of the Jews on that Nobel Prize list.


Why not? I mean, some of those prizes are well deserved, some aren't (Kissinger and peace? Shoulda waited till the war was over, I think. But hey, looks like enough dirt is being excavated to charge him with something...).

But how to you compare eras next to each other? They were on top during that time... ahead of others during that time. That's all that is being claimed now too.

[ptGatsby]

I will venture to say that Africans have suffered just as much as the Jewish Community


Heh, or we could narrow the time gap and even look at Ukranians and Stalin? I'm fairly sure those purges were larger...

Chosen people achieve great things because of their chosen mentality... but also bring great sorrow upon themselves... it tends to be the nature of matyrs.

[Lurker]

Heh, or we could narrow the time gap and even look at Ukranians and Stalin? I'm fairly sure those purges were larger...

Chosen people achieve great things because of their chosen mentality... but also bring great sorrow upon themselves... it tends to be the nature of matyrs.

Oh yes, plenty of other recent genocides to look at! The former Soviet Union and Eastern Europe, many Middle Eastern countries, including Iraq. Saddam's various purges and the current escalating civil war may not be official "genocide," but how much torture and systemic killing does it take to grant a group this status? Once genocide is acknowledged and labeled as such, the international community is supposedly obligated to do something about it. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to work out that way, though.

I'm not sure if identity with a Chosen group necessarily leads to great achievement - there are many examples, but I'm too lazy to list them - instead, I think Jewish achievement may be linked to the high priority their religion and culture place on intellectual achievement. As Dr. Haight stated, it's nearly sacred!

[ptGatsby]

I'm not sure if identity with a Chosen group necessarily leads to great achievement - there are many examples, but I'm too lazy to list them - instead, I think Jewish achievement may be linked to the high priority their religion and culture place on intellectual achievement. As Dr. Haight stated, it's nearly sacred!


That's true... but it doesn't explain the absolute breakthroughs that confucionism should have given then, since education was huge then too.

Course, that might of been tempered by more rigid social structures.

In short, no one knows for sure. But clearly education should be a large influence.

[Huston]

Why not? I mean, some of those prizes are well deserved, some aren't (Kissinger and peace? Shoulda waited till the war was over, I think. But hey, looks like enough dirt is being excavated to charge him with something...).

But how to you compare eras next to each other? They were on top during that time... ahead of others during that time. That's all that is being claimed now too.

Being on top does not have anything to do with this. However I can see what you are saying. However, we have a list of top Scholars of the time. Lets say we do, even ones deserving (like those of Neils Bohr and Einstein) or not (like Kissinger). Then again, back then there might a be a bunch of repeat winners, or years without winners. This would mainly be from population difference, but not a big difference.

[Huston]

i was just arguing for the dietary factor basis

Yes, and you failed horribly at making that argument.

Now what the hell is unclean? What makes it "unclean", and what does the that "uncleanliness" do?

It does nothing.

[ptGatsby]

Being on top does not have anything to do with this. However I can see what you are saying. However, we have a list of top Scholars of the time. Lets say we do, even ones deserving (like those of Neils Bohr and Einstein) or not (like Kissinger). Then again, back then there might a be a bunch of repeat winners, or years without winners. This would mainly be from population difference, but not a big difference.


Sure being on top is important... that's all that is being said.

"A recent European body gives up awards on scientific achievement", followed by "Jews have vastly more than arabs".

If this was a 1000 year experiment in changing social conditions, I'd be bothered to care. All arguing over this shows is either a strong racist bias, or an overal ignorance of the fundamentals that influence such an award.

There simply isn't enough information to make a conclusion on the reason why.

Speaking of which, did anyone make a list of Christians or atheists that have won? How about women? Any mention of blacks in there? What about Africans? Or Asians?

[Lurker]

That's true... but it doesn't explain the absolute breakthroughs that confucionism should have given then, since education was huge then too.

Course, that might of been tempered by more rigid social structures.

In short, no one knows for sure. But clearly education should be a large influence.

It's a plethora of influences, in my opinion: social structure, religion, wealth, even genetics. I don't think it's completely logical to accept that different races can have different medical and physical characteristics, yet reject any notion that there are mental differences as well since the brain is just another organ, after all. I don't even like to admit this because people will instantly assume I'm racist and I'm not. But, I have played with the notion a bit. Any mental differences that *may*be present between races are rather inconsequential in the ocean of humanity, anyway.

[Stoned_Rider]

Hmm, what school(s) did you go to? If you don't want to say, were you at local schools or private ones?

I went to Choueifat for a while and I can agree with some of the points there. . . but then. . . Choueifat is a whooole different discussion (my god). I went to RAKESS for a while and a friend of mine went to the American School in Sharjah (whatever it's called). Both of them are good about incorporating modern world history, literature and critical theory (as far as it ever goes at high school anyway). But I've never heard much about the local schools so I'm kind of curious.

Anyway, at the very least, there are a lot of private schools to choose from, which offer more standard global programs of education. Actually compared to Britain, Canada and the US (either me or my parents have had significant experience in all of them) the education system in place in most private schools in the UAE is the best - even though most are modeled on British or French systems anyway.
Obviously I'm not talking about private schools, where most of the textbooks are imported from the UK, and all the teachers are either foreign or mostly western-educated. Choueifat for example is like a whole other country. I am sure you are aware that most locals send their children to local public schools. Private schools are mostly for expats. In addition, not everyone has the financial means to send their children to Choueifat and the like!

I went to Al Nahda. Prior to that, I studied for a couple of years at a Saudi school in Morocco (using the national curriculum of Saudi Arabia). I didn't really have a choice. I didn't want to study in French and the Saudi school was one of the very few that offered courses in Arabic and English. My God! Everything was taught from an Islamic perspective, with no room for debate or discussion. We had four separate textbooks entirely dedicated to the four aspects of Islam - Quran, Hadith, Sharia and Monotheism. The history textbook was a joke. All they ever taught about was the rise of the Islamic Empire, Islamic conquests etc.. from Muhammad to the Ottomans. Absolutely nothing else.

As for Al Nahda, I spent some years doing the local system before making the (giant) leap to A-Levels. It wasn't as bad as the Saudi school but still, more Islamic history was taught at the expense of the rest of world history, maths and science were of such low level it was unbelievable. In all my years there I was never once taught about philosophy, world history, critical theory etc..
If you asked me back then about the Aztecs, World War I, or anything to do with philosophy, I would have just stood there, scratching my head and staring at you with a blank face.


Why did you stay at the school if it was so bad? (Or is it just in retrospect?)
I didn't think much of it at the time. I didn't really care because I had no idea how bad it was, compared with the rest of the world. Add to that the fact that I was Muslim anyway so it was all good.



The flip side of this is that if the jobs were offered at a high minimum wage (recently there was a minimum wage introduction) then the UAE couldn't afford to hire massive numbers of workers from India, Pakistan and the Phillipines. The current wages are mutually beneficial for all countries involved.

The only argument you might make is about working conditions which, in the past, have sometimes been very poor. The Emirates has changed a lot in the last 10 years though and human rights groups are becoming less critical.
Could be, I haven't been back there for more than 5 years now.




What countries are you comparing?

Morocco and Egypt have lower literacy rates than India. The Emirates doesn't seem like a very good example here simply because of the necessary decisions they make regarding the economy. They don't have the population base to become a manufacturing center so they have started (obviously) with natural resources and are shifting that to service industry with time.

Is nuclear power an important criteria for acheivement? (*looks over at the little guy with goofy glasses and a gigantic missle sitting in the corner*)

Perhaps you could explain this better.
Judging from this list (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_literacy_rate), India is almost on par with Sudan, and not that much higher than Egypt. It is also ranked lower than Algeria, Tunisia, Oman, Libya, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, and Jordan.

This map (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Percentage_population_living_on_less_than_1_dollar_day.png) also shows that India has more widespread poverty than Egypt, Morocco, Tunisia, Algeria, Yemen, and Jordan (Data is missing for most other Arab countries).

Despite this, India has the second fastest growing major economy in the world. When it comes to science and technology, "India is becoming one of the world's leading producers of computer software and with mushrooming R&D centres and is experiencing a slow but steady revolution in science and technology. A typical example of India's rising scientific endeavours is that it was the 3rd nation to found a National Space Agency called ISRO, after the USSR and the U.S.. It was the third Asian nation to send satellites into space after China and Japan in 1970, starting with Aryabhata in 1975 . By 2008 it plans to send an unmanned mission to the Moon . India is among the world leaders in remote sensing , a technology coming to great use, among others, to Indian fishermen & farmers. India is also trying to join international R&D projects - e.g. it has recently joined the European Galileo GPS Project and the ITER for fusion energy club . Some Indian educational and research institutions like IIT , IIM, IISc, TIFR and AIIMS are among the world's best.
"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India_as_an_emerging_superpower


A report (http://www.meforum.org/article/513) published by Arab intellectuals in 2002, on Arab human development, concluded that "the Arab world is in decline, even relative to the developing world."


Arab countries have some of the lowest levels of research funding in the world. R&D [research and development] expenditure as a percentage of GDP was a mere 0.4 for the Arab world in 1996, compared to 1.26 in 1995 for Cuba, 2.35 in 1994 for Israel, and 2.9 for Japan.

In 1981, China was producing half the output of the Arab world; by 1987, its output had equaled that of Arab countries; it now produces double their output. In 1981, the Republic of Korea was producing 10 percent of the output of the Arab world; in 1995, it almost equaled its output.

The figures for translated books are discouraging. The Arab world translates about 330 books annually, one fifth of the number that Greece translates.

According to World Bank data, GNP per worker in all Arab countries combined was less than half that of two comparator developing countries: Argentina and the Republic of Korea.

In the first group of nine Arab countries that are richest in oil resources, productivity barely exceeds half the level in the two comparator countries; for the middle group with respect to oil's share in GDP (Egypt, Syria, and Tunisia), productivity is less than one sixth of the comparators'; in the oil-poor Arab countries (Djibouti, Jordan, Lebanon, Mauritania, Morocco, Somalia, Sudan, and Yemen) it is less than one tenth. This result suggests that excluding the effect of oil revenues might reduce productivity estimates for Arab economies to a greater extent than the simple overall comparison given above.

[Dr. Haight]

im aware that jewish people believe that if a gentile hits a jew then the gentile should be put to death
that the gentiles were born to be slaves to the jewsDude... what the hell (a non-Jewish concept) are you talking about? :huh:

[MacGuffin]

im aware that jewish people believe that if a gentile hits a jew then the gentile should be put to death

that the gentiles were born to be slaves to the jews


Dude... what the hell (a non-Jewish concept) are you talking about? :huh:
Is that why you keep calling me "slave" in the modbox??!??!?

[Dr. Haight]

Israeli Jews have a Martyr Complex that makes their culture look, well, narcissistic. They need to lose the precious attitude already.Please explain.

[meshou]

Please explain.I may be biased, and don't want to spend hours supporting this (since I doubt there's any common ground to be had here-- too few facts to be found and a whole lot of bullshit), but I think Isreal gets away with much, much more politically than nearly any other nation. They've got our unconditional support, and a lot of the reason for that is guilt for putting a people who just went through attempted genocide in the middle of a region that historically despised them. I think they do play on that guilt quite a bit, and pretty much demonize any and all who would criticize any decision they made, ever, as being on the side of the terrorists.

... I guess that's where we got that from. THANKS ISREAL, AMERICA TOTALLY NEEDED AN EXCUSE TO DO WHATEVER IT WANTED.

I am being very general 'cause being specific enough would take pages and pages and pages and pages. I know I'm generalizing past where we can talk about truths. There's no truth here to be had.

[Dr. Haight]

That's way to much misinformation for a lazy guy like me to feel compelled to straighten out.

I think I will assume that Lurker has a different answer.

[nomir_dva]

Israeli Jews have a Martyr Complex that makes their culture look, well, narcissistic. They need to lose the precious attitude already.

So, anyway, I think they've won plenty in the past 30-40 years. At what point do the Jewish People loss the victim status? What about the genocides that went on in Africa? Rwandan Hutus and Tutsis, for instance. They were black Africans, though, so the world didn't consider them important. No oil in Rwanda either, go figure. I will venture to say that Africans have suffered just as much as the Jewish Community.

It's time to pass the victim stick.

Walk down an Eastern European street, and you can then decide whether the Jews have won a lot in the last 30 or 40 years or not.

Aside from that, I really don't understand the victim status that you're talking about, and I fail to see how the suffering of the Africans reflects on the proper status of Jews. I think that the salient characteristic of the Holocaust was the context in which it occured: genocides happen in backward, barbarous places, like Africa and Asia. That it happened right in the heart of civillized Europe was shocking like nothing else. It's probably as significant for European gentiles as it is for the Jews. Also, too many survivors of the Holocaust are still alive for that to fade out of the Jewish cultural identity.

[meshou]

That's way to much misinformation for a lazy guy like me to feel compelled to straighten out.Yeah, I know. As I said, do you honestly think that if you put the God's truth in front of me, I could tell it from near identical propeganda? There's too much shit out there to make a good decision, I do the best I can.

My direct experience on the matter was going to a highschool which was about half Jewish and 1/8th Israeli. More than one went home for funerals, and more than one had pretty bad scaring. One girl was playing near a window and was knocked through it when a bomb went off downstairs as a small child, and was missing fingers.

I can't expect anyone on any side not to be hateful, but how the fuck do I look someone like that in the eye and question whether their spite for someone who might not have had anything to do with that sort of thing at all is rational?

I'm not smart enough to go on more than gut instinct here.

[PenguinHunter]

Obviously I'm not talking about private schools, where most of the textbooks are imported from the UK, and all the teachers are either foreign or mostly western-educated. Choueifat for example is like a whole other country. I am sure you are aware that most locals send their children to local public schools. Private schools are mostly for expats. In addition, not everyone has the financial means to send their children to Choueifat and the like!
. . .

Ok, interesting. My dad's employer provided education for any accompanying kids. A lot of locals do go to Choueifat though, especially "royalty." RAKESS, not so much. Thanks for the info though, as I said I was always curious about local schools. I had some local friends but most of them were out of high school so it never really came up in conversation.


Judging from this list (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_literacy_rate), India is almost on par with Sudan, and not that much higher than Egypt. It is also ranked lower than Algeria, Tunisia, Oman, Libya, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, and Jordan.

This map (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Percentage_population_living_on_less_than_1_dollar_day.png) also shows that India has more widespread poverty than Egypt, Morocco, Tunisia, Algeria, Yemen, and Jordan (Data is missing for most other Arab countries).

Despite this, India has the second fastest growing major economy in the world. When it comes to science and technology, "India is becoming one of the world's leading producers of computer software and with mushrooming R&D centres and is experiencing a slow but steady revolution in science and technology. A typical example of India's rising scientific endeavours is that it was the 3rd nation to found a National Space Agency called ISRO, after the USSR and the U.S.. It was the third Asian nation to send satellites into space after China and Japan in 1970, starting with Aryabhata in 1975 . By 2008 it plans to send an unmanned mission to the Moon . India is among the world leaders in remote sensing , a technology coming to great use, among others, to Indian fishermen & farmers. India is also trying to join international R&D projects - e.g. it has recently joined the European Galileo GPS Project and the ITER for fusion energy club . Some Indian educational and research institutions like IIT , IIM, IISc, TIFR and AIIMS are among the world's best.
"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India_as_an_emerging_superpower

All of this is interesting but I don't know how much of it is really relevant to your India-Arab comparison. The amount of money a country puts into research and development doesn't necessarily correlate with poverty or literacy rates. In fact, I find it a little strange that India plans to send a mission to the moon in 2008 when they still have crippling economic problems at home. Surely that money could be better spent on rural economic reform to, say, reduce that widespread poverty. I don't want to belittle the achievement (if they do manage to complete the mission), but I don't think that is the best move the government could make.

(Incidentally, Ras Al Khaimah is getting that spaceport (http://www.spaceadventures.com/media/releases/2006-02/347). Heh heh heh, I still find that bizarre.)

In the end, a higher research and development contribution just shows that the government places a higher value on scientific achievement than economic development. Obviously the two overlap but I don't see this as a wise decision for present day India. A country like the Emirates sees their immediate path needs to be economic diversification, so launching themselves into interplanetary exploration takes the backburner. Again, the example of Kim Jong-Il - North Korea would have a fairly high research and development percentage but that's not a good indicator of success.

I do agree though, that a country like the Emirates should be developing their higher education systems as well. It's a shame that so many kids go overseas for university just because the choices at home aren't great. Ras Al Khaimah recently set up George Mason University and some Dubai schools are improving quite a bit but there's no reason for the Emirates not to have some top schools when the money is there for it.


A report (http://www.meforum.org/article/513) published by Arab intellectuals in 2002, on Arab human development, concluded that "the Arab world is in decline, even relative to the developing world."


Arab countries have some of the lowest levels of research funding in the world. R&D [research and development] expenditure as a percentage of GDP was a mere 0.4 for the Arab world in 1996, compared to 1.26 in 1995 for Cuba, 2.35 in 1994 for Israel, and 2.9 for Japan.

Another thing probably worth noting is how old this report is. 1996 is ten years ago now. I would suspect the Arab world is doing better in 2006.

Also I found some sites that suggest some numbers might have been confused here. It is not 0.4 percent of the countries' GDP but 0.4 percent of the international community?s contribution to R&D (http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:i5hReiED5t4J:www.worldbank.org/mdf/mdf4/papers/gadir.pdf+R%26D+expenditure+as+a+percentage+of+GDP+UAE&hl=en&gl=ca&ct=clnk&cd=7#world_expenditure). This is still significantly low, but maybe not as bad as your article would like it to seem. (I?m having internet trouble at the moment. I?ll try to remember to post the link (http://www.inwent.org/ef-texte/ahdr/alnajjar.htm)s tomorrow.)


According to the latest available information, gross domestic expenditure on R&D worldwide amounted to US$ 470 billion in 1994. R&D expenditure by Arab countries was estimated as US$ 1.9 billion, only 0.4 percent of total world expenditure. Not surprisingly, 84 percent of R&D expenditure is contributed by the advanced countries;

---


According to World Bank data, GNP per worker in all Arab countries combined was less than half that of two comparator developing countries: Argentina and the Republic of Korea.

Here is a big mistake in both your article and the ones I?ll try to post later. You simply can?t lump all the countries in the ?Arab world? together and expect to be able to make reasonable comparisons to other parts of the world. Of course when you add ?Djibouti, Jordan, Lebanon, Mauritania, Morocco, Somalia, Sudan, and Yemen? to the statistics of the Arab world, its GNP per person ranks lower than Argentina! Mauritania and Somalia? Are you kidding? Neither of those places is remotely comparable to Argentina or South Korea, let alone the UAE, Kuwait or Bahrain.

That would be like adding Lesotho, Malawi, Swaziland and Zimbabwe to all of South Africa?s stats to suggest that ?Southern African? nations are doing poorly. South Africa sticks out like the only unbroken finger (kind of).

http://www.studentsoftheworld.info/infopays/rank/PNBH2.html
Look at the list.
UAE ? 27th, comparable to New Zealand.
Argentina ? 103rd, comparable to Costa Rica and Belize.
Somalia ? 5th from the bottom. Comparable to the DRC and Liberia.

What if you add the rest of Asia to South Korea? It doesn?t make sense there and it doesn?t make sense to talk economically about an ?Arab world? that large.


In the first group of nine Arab countries that are richest in oil resources, productivity barely exceeds half the level in the two comparator countries; for the middle group with respect to oil's share in GDP (Egypt, Syria, and Tunisia), productivity is less than one sixth of the comparators'; in the oil-poor Arab countries (Djibouti, Jordan, Lebanon, Mauritania, Morocco, Somalia, Sudan, and Yemen) it is less than one tenth. This result suggests that excluding the effect of oil revenues might reduce productivity estimates for Arab economies to a greater extent than the simple overall comparison given above.

Similarly here, I don?t see how a GDP comparison says anything. So the GDP in Argentina is slightly (only about a third higher ? see wikipedia) than the UAE. . . It also has about 15 times the population of the UAE. (Un)Shockingly, Brazil is 11th overall in GDP rankings. That says pretty much nothing useful.

[omnirook]

There are probably many non-Jews who don't eat pork, shellfish, predatory brids, crawling things, etc. What would that have to do with intellectual superiority?

Bullshit. The Germans eat huge quantities of pork and all the other so-called "unclean meats" - you find me a stupid German - you'll be looking a long time.

[Hustler]

Bullshit. The Germans eat huge quantities of pork and all the other so-called "unclean meats" - you find me a stupid German - you'll be looking a long time.

I give you Roy Uwe Ludwig Horn:

http://www.intpcentral.com/uploads/_39412184_ap203bodyshow.jpg

It doesn't take a very smart person to avoid getting mauled by a tiger in this day and age.

[nomir_dva]

Bullshit. The Germans eat huge quantities of pork and all the other so-called "unclean meats" - you find me a stupid German - you'll be looking a long time.

I don't understand what you're disagreeing with - I was arguing that there was no connection between Jewish acheivement and and their avoidance of certain foods. As far as stupid Germans - there are eighty million people in their country. No matter how hard the Germans try, the bell curve will give them some millions of idiots.

[Arioch]

Bullshit. The Germans eat huge quantities of pork and all the other so-called "unclean meats" - you find me a stupid German - you'll be looking a long time.

I can find three, easily.

[omnirook]

I don't understand what you're disagreeing with - I was arguing that there was no connection between Jewish acheivement and and their avoidance of certain foods. As far as stupid Germans - there are eighty million people in their country. No matter how hard the Germans try, the bell curve will give them some millions of idiots.

I must have taken you wrong. That happens when I am very tired. I've been overworked lately, so sorry if I misunderstood you ... I've never met a stupid German. Stubborn, blockheaded, impossilbe to move, but all w/the annoying habit of turning out to have been right. My brother-in-law is German. Very smart, very stubborn, very ... German!

[omnirook]

Please explain.

Yeah, explain. I've met many Israeli's, do business w/them all the time. They have a cynical streak, they have a tendency to expect the worst - but, despite that, they remain cheerful and oddly optimistic. Propriety and honsesty are greatly prized. As is courage.

[wildcat]

I was just emailed the following from an old high school friend (who just happens to be jewish).

INTERESTING STATISTICS ABOUT ARABS & JEWS

The Global Islamic population is approximately 1,200,000,000, or 20% of the world population.
They have received the following Nobel Prizes:

Literature:
1988 - Najib Mahfooz

Peace:
1978 - Mohamed Anwar El-Sadat
1994 - Yaser Arafat:
1990 - Elias James Corey
1999 - Ahmed Zewai

Economics:
(none)

Medicine:
1960 - Peter Brian Medawar
1998 - Ferid Mourad

The Global Jewish population is approximately 14,000,000, or about 0.02% of the world population.

They have received the following Nobel Prizes:

Literature:
1910 - Paul Heyse
1927 - Henri Bergson
1958 - Boris Pasternak
1966 - Shmuel Yosef Agnon
1966 - Nelly Sachs
1976 - Saul Bellow
1978 - Isaac Bashevis Singer
1981 - Elias Canetti
1987 - Joseph Brodsky
1991 - Nadine Gordimer World

Peace:
1911 - Alfred Fried
1911 - Tobias Michael Carel Asser
1968 - Rene Cassin
1973 - Henry Kissinger
1978 - Menachem Begin
1986 - Elie Wiesel
1994 - Shimon Peres
1994 - Yitzhak Rabin

Physics:
1905 - Adolph Von Baeyer
1906 - Henri Moissan
1907 - Albert Abraham Michelson
1908 - Gabriel Lippmann
1910 - Otto Wallach
1915 - Richard Willstaetter
1918 - Fritz Haber
1921 - Albert Einstein
1922 - Niels Bohr
1925 - James Franck
1925 - Gustav Hertz
1943 - Gustav Stern
1943 - George Charles de Hevesy
1944 - Isidor Issac Rabi
1952 - Felix Bloc h
1954 - Max Born
1958 - Igor Tamm
1959 - Emilio Segre
1960 - Donald A. Glaser
1961 - Robert Hofstadter
1961 - Melvin Calvin
1962 - Lev Davidovich Landau
1962 - Max Ferdinand Perutz
1965 - Richard Phillips Feynman
1965 - Julian Schwinger
1969 - Murray Gell-Mann
1971 - Dennis Gabor
1972 - William Howard Stein
1973 - Brian David Josephson
1975 - Benjamin Mottleson
1976 - Burton Richter
1977 - Ilya Prigogine
1978 - Arno Allan Penzias
1978 - Peter L Kapitza
1979 - Stephen Weinberg
1979 - Sheldon Glashow
1979 - Herbert Charle s Brown
1980 - Paul Berg
1980 - Walter Gilbert
1981 - Roald Hoffmann
1982 - Aaron Klug
1985 - Albert A. Hauptman
1985 - Jerome Karle
1986 - Dudley R. Herschbach
1988 - Robert Huber
1988 - Leon Lederman
1988 - Melvin Schwartz
1988 - Jack Steinberger
1989 - Sidney Altman
1990 - Jerome Friedman
1992 - Rudolph Marcus
1995 - Martin Perl
2000 - Alan J. Heeger

Economics:
1970 - Paul Anthony Samuelson
1971 - Simon Kuznets
1972 - Kenneth Joseph Arrow
1975 - Leonid Kantorovich
1976 - Milton Friedman
1978 - Herbert A. Simon
1980 - Lawrence Robert Klein
1985 - Franco Modigliani
1987 - Robert M. Solow
1990 - Harry Markowitz
1990 - Merton Miller
1992 - Gary Becker
1993 - Robert Fogel

Medicine:
1908 - Elie Metchnikoff
1908 - Paul Erlich
1914 - Robert Barany
1922 - Otto Meyerhof
1930 - Karl Landsteiner
1931 - Otto Warburg
1936 - Otto Loewi
1944 - Joseph Erlanger
1944 - Herbert Spencer Gasser
1945 - Ernst Boris Chain
1946 - Hermann Joseph Muller
1950 - Tadeus Reichstein
1952 - Selman Abra ham Waksman
1953 - Hans Krebs
1953 - Fritz Albert Lipmann
1958 - Joshua Lederberg
1959 - Arthur Kornberg
1964 - Konrad Bloch
1965 - Francois Jaco b
1965 - Andre Lwoff
1967 - George Wald
1968 - Marshall W. Nirenberg
1969 - Salvador Luria
1970 - Julius Axelrod
1970 - Sir Bernard Katz
1972 - Gerald Maurice Edelman
1975 - Howard Martin Temin
1976 - Baruch S. Blumberg
1977 - Roselyn Sussman Yalow
1978 - Daniel Nathans
1980 - Baruj Benacerraf
1984 - Cesar Milstein
1985 - Michael Stuart Brown
1985 - Joseph L. Goldstein
1986 - Stanley Cohen [& Rita Levi-Montalcini]
1988 - Gertrude Elion
1989 - Harold Varmus
1991 - Erwin Neher
1991 - Bert Sakmann
1993 - Richard J. Roberts
1993 - Phillip Sharp
1994 - Alfred Gilman
1995 - Edward B. Lewis
------------------------------------------------
Obviously, this is some sort of jewish pride thing-- I've seen things like this for indian pride ("hey, we invented the zero, aren't we amazing!?").

But at the same time, it makes me wonder, as to WHY there are so few islamic nobel prize winners.
This is a very interesting question and I have often thought about it.
Google the mtDNA haplogroup in Wikipedia.

It is also interesting to find out that tradition precedes biology.

[Prolific]

Didn't you know?!!
Jews invented pornography for the sole purpose of corrupting Muslim children :rolleyes:

Q: Why does an Arab brain cost much more than a non-Arab brain?
A: Coz it's never been used!! Muahahahahaha!!!1111one1111!11!1

whatever...

Thats a racist joke. Its not even funny, which makes it even worse.

[Stoned_Rider]

Thats a racist joke. Its not even funny, which makes it even worse.
It's a joke that most Arabs would find funny (and true). In fact, it was Arabs who came up with this joke. And I am Arab myself. So please, STFU. Nothing wrong with a little self-criticism.

[Huston]

Yep, the Arabs I know say the same thing. My Iraqi friend say also says it is in Iraqi genes to have a short and hot temper.

Although it is still rascist.. or it supports/propagates rascism, or the segregation of people. Like African Americans being the dominate phenogroup in basketball and football. They will focus on such thing and then make the impression that only are better at these things, even though they just put more importance and time and pratice into it.

[Prolific]

It's a joke that most Arabs would find funny (and true). In fact, it was Arabs who came up with this joke. And I am Arab myself. So please, STFU. Nothing wrong with a little self-criticism.

Its still a dumb and stupid joke. You Moroccans are weird. Your women have turned you into idiot's. No offense like.

[Stoned_Rider]

Its still a dumb and stupid joke. You Moroccans are weird. Your women have turned you into idiot's. No offense like.
Dude I can't help it if our women are super hot. Don't hate :cool:

[Prolific]

Dude I can't help it if our women are super hot. Don't hate :cool:

I guess if you're into men in drag. Arab/Moroccan women > masculine.

[Stoned_Rider]

I guess if you're into men in drag. Arab/Moroccan women > masculine.
http://www.politicsforum.org/images/humour/stfu.jpg

[Tayshaun]

It's because there are more jewish INTPs and INTJs

No, seriously, I've also often wondered about that. Actually, jews represent nearly a quarter of total Nobel prize laureates (23%)! It's very unlikely for 0,2% of the world population. They also represent 37% of U.S. laureates for 2% of U.S. population!

Please, no more silly comments such as eating habits or chosen people/holocaust complex. Those are not very rational comments if not substantiated (how, I don't know). The old tradition of following talmudic laws, living in close communities don't seem to be deep theories either, unless like someone posted, environmental factors leading to genetic changes are responsible. This could be an argument for why ashkenazi jews have the upperhand over sefardic jews. These theories are dangerous and difficult to substantiate without any stronger scientific data.

Also, please be careful before saying it's because the Nobel committee gives them more easily to jews. The Nobel committee is Swedish! There are virtually no jews in Sweden. I'm sure they don't even know who is jewish and even less suffer any pressure to reward jews (stop the whole conspiration theories, PLEASE).

It's really a mystery. Like just mentionned, ashkenazi, "European jews", have collected more prizes. There aren't that many orthodox jews, especially not the ones who collect Nobel Prizes. This somewhat rules out the theory of the jewish growing environment resulting in bigger chances of succeeding. Does a drive to be the best in their field play a role? Also very unlikely. I don't think jews grow up being told they have to be the best or that they should have revenge over centuries of hate by being at the top! For instance, Bohr and Einstein got theirs before the holocaust.

The statistics are a mathematical anomaly, so there must be reasons...
The most plausible theories lie in social factors. Before making up any "jewish gene" theory, there is a need for scientific data. Stipulation about genetics is a dangerous step towards racism.

[Prolific]

http://www.politicsforum.org/images/humour/stfu.jpg

Am not into politics. A bunch of grown men arguing, about other peoples prospectives, I don't find appealing. I would rather have my teeth pulled out.

[Tayshaun]

Umm, this is what I meant actually...

Beautiful picture!
It can often come in handy and you probably feel tempted to use it all the time (on websites like politicsforum.org, which is btw a great and invaluable forum).

[Dr. Haight]

Two posts that were above have been deleted.


Argue against the position, but not the person. kthanx.

[Stoned_Rider]

Two posts that were above have been deleted.


Argue against the position, but not the person. kthanx.

:confused:

In that case shouldn't pretty much all of Prolific's posts be deleted??

PS - I honestly don't see how a picture with the caption "think before you say something stupid" is against the person not the position.

[iksikaksi]

Well, its simple, jews have the culture of being productive and industrious. While muslims have the culture of giving and being some sort of martyr to enter heaven. Jews have to prove their superiority by excelling in what they do. Not to mention the Jews were responsible for the first banks and they were the only ones (in medieval times) who would charge interest. According to muslim law its unethical to charge interest. Jews were the first to come up with the banking system we have today. They are hard core within themselves and failure is unacceptable. Therefore if you put that culture to breed for the following 4000 years, you will see that it is more likely for a jew to be intelligent. Im not saying that muslims are not intelligent they simply are not as productive as the Jews are and they resent that. However muslims are not the only ones who resent Jews so do Christians. Part of the attack towards Jews in Nazi Germany was because they owned 80 % of all the businesses and almost 100% of all the banks, plus they tend to be snobs as a group hence causing a lot of anger and resentfulness amongst other religions and cultures.