INFJ/ISFJ/INFP Male's

[Oculus Sinister]

How are you different from female types of your temperament? I wonder how testerone and the masculine culture that pervades us affects your strong feelings.

[Park]

Good question. Lots of things sum up our idendity and being and INTP is just one part along with that comes culture, religion, gender etc. Will be interesting to read the responses.

[Oculus Sinister]

Good question. Lots of things sum up our idendity and being and INTP is just one part along with that comes culture, religion, gender etc. Will be interesting to read the responses.

Hey Park, I left out female INTP's. What is that like?

[nottaprettygal]

I know this isn't a first-hand account and an extreme example, but the INFP that I knew totally rejected masculine culture. I wonder if this was an unconscious move, or if he personally attempted to dislike everything commonly identified as stereotypically masculine (sports, any slightly degrading pornography, aggression, etc.).

He also said that he was more of a woman then I'd ever be.

[MacGuffin]

I know this isn't a first-hand account and an extreme example, but the INFP that I knew totally rejected masculine culture. I wonder if this was an unconscious move, or if he personally attempted to dislike everything commonly identified as stereotypically masculine (sports, any slightly degrading pornography, aggression, etc.).

He also said that he was more of a woman then I'd ever be.
Stop talking about me.

[nottaprettygal]

Stop talking about me.

I should note that despite his womanly leanings, he was still very much affected by the testosterone flowing through him. In other words, he required lots of sex. Lots and lots of sex.

[Oculus Sinister]

I should note that despite his womanly leanings, he was still very much affected by the testosterone flowing through him. In other words, he required lots of sex. Lots and lots of sex.

See, heres something. I am thinking a male INFP could certainly use his Fness to get laid more than a male INTP.

[MacGuffin]

I should note that despite his womanly leanings, he was still very much affected by the testosterone flowing through him. In other words, he required lots of sex. Lots and lots of sex.
I said stop.

[nottaprettygal]

I said stop.

He was particularly interested in sex with golden retrievers. Although we always used to joke about the fact that you have to be careful with them because they are prone to hip problems.

And yes, I think a male INFP can easily get laid and use their sensitivity to their advantage. I don't really think they are the manipulative type though. But when it comes to sex, who knows?

[MacGuffin]

He was particularly interested in sex with golden retrievers. Although we always used to joke about the fact that you have to be careful with them because they are prone to hip problems.

And yes, I think a male INFP can easily get laid and use their sensitivity to their advantage. I don't really think they are the manipulative type though. But when it comes to sex, who knows?
Whew! I thought you were talking about me!

[abathur]

Eh, not sure how much of an authority I am as an INTP, but if I go by a function test I'm only a stones throw from testing INFP instead of INTP.

I don't know that the gender difference by type is all that big, as far as nature is concerned, and to some extent as far as behavior is concerned. I think for types introverting instead of extraverting that feeling, you aren't going to see a huge difference because the emotion just won't be flowing that much. I think the value/logic in decision making is a far more visible predictor of T/F in types introverting their judgement functions.

Culture is the big difference, IMO, and it (culture) is probably as invalidating of the INFP male's emotional world as it is of the INTP's intellectual world. I know that I don't feel free to share my internal emotional OR intellectual worlds just anywhere, but the number of places I can share my emotional world is a significantly shorter list than places I can acceptably share my intellectual world. Though I still identify with the thinking function as my main decision making process, I think I'd probably test INFP by behavior if I wasn't culturally encouraged to stay miles away, just because I would allow that side of me to come out more often. My inner emotional world, for the most part, stays my inner emotional world. It ends up in my poetry, just because I feel like I'd explode if it doesn't, but I'm not really to the point yet where I can share my intimate poetry with people I actually know.

[nottaprettygal]

Whew! I thought you were talking about me!

Mmhmm. I'll just keep the rest of the details to myself, you sick fuck.

...

Just like we've had threads about how NT women can overcome traditional female stereotypes, the same is probably true for any male feeler overcoming masculine stereotypes.

Eh, that was my attempt to stay on topic, but I still keep thinking about that thing that my dog loving friend did with the peanut butter on his...nevermind.

[MacGuffin]

Mmhmm. I'll just keep the rest of the details to myself, you sick fuck.
I hope so, your perverted friend might make me puke.

[Park]

Hey Park, I left out female INTP's. What is that like?

One of my best friends is a fabulous ENTP woman and I know a handfull of NT men for comparison.

I'd say that both my friend and I have a well-developed F function which I think, to a large degree, is culture enforced. In context with other people, I perceive this as an advantage. We can connect with people on both an emotional level and a logical level when we want to. However, having both been invalidated due to our dominant Ts in the past, we have developed an immediate cautiousness which is activated when we socialize with very hungry Fs. For some F women, a part of connecting with another woman is swimming around in a river of emotions and discussing personal stuff from an F angle and logic thinking often isn't welcome. Dealing with these F types drains me and I've sometimes feelt emotionally raped when things becomes too intimate and the desire to connect on an emotional level becomes too demanding. I could imagine that NT men only experience this pressure from their closest relations where as NT women experience it with less close relations as well.

There is also this thread http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=11007

[ptide]

As an INFP I can assure you all that being an 'F' doesn't mean more or less testostorone. If we were to assume Thinker means thinking and Feeling means feeling, guess which type would wanna get laid more?

But that isn't what Thinking and Feeling mean in Myers Briggs. Socionics gives more accurate labels of Logic and Empathy. These terms are a little less loaded and could help clear up the confusion.

My empathy means I usually shun the traditional masculine culture. I'd feel sick at myself if I were to treat women as objects. Sport as warfare holds no appeal for me. I like to play sport for fun and competition.. but as soon as it becomes egoic, 'my team is the best' or 'such and such team sucks balls', I lose interest. I don't drink alcohol (just me - not INFP's in general) because any interaction between people whilst under the influence.. is just artificial.. it's not real.

The idea that men are supposed to be loud, obnoxious, stupid, sex-crazed and alcoholic is perpetuated by our mindless ESTJ ruling class.

We should be who we are.. and not afraid. It is moral cowardice to sink to stereotypes. Who are we fooling?... The real man will be himself and stand by his values and principles.

Those values and principles will differ from type to type. Mine are based on my empathy.. you INTP's will hold to logic.

Masculinity should not be confused with playing the sheep role.

[Park]

We should be who we are.. and not afraid. It is moral cowardice to sink to stereotypes. Who are we fooling?... The real man will be himself and stand by his values and principles.

Besides being a person who stands by his values and principle, what is your definition of a real man?

[Jennifer]

I'd say that both my friend and I have a well-developed F function which I think, to a large degree, is culture enforced. In context with other people, I perceive this as an advantage. We can connect with people on both an emotional level and a logical level when we want to. However, having both been invalidated due to our dominant Ts in the past, we have developed an immediate cautiousness which is activated when we socialize with very hungry Fs. For some F women, a part of connecting with another woman is swimming around in a river of emotions and discussing personal stuff from an F angle and logic thinking often isn't welcome. Dealing with these F types drains me and I've sometimes feelt emotionally raped when things becomes too intimate and the desire to connect on an emotional level becomes too demanding. I could imagine that NT men only experience this pressure from their closest relations where as NT women experience it with less close relations as well.

That doesn't seem improbable. <-- standard INTP 'disclaimer' of agreement w/ loophole in case something takes an awful turn of illogic or reality refuses to comply with theory

The gender thing does add some basic variation on the relationship, regardless of culture -- the male focus on competence/adequacy, the female focus on the relational web.

I enjoy sharing inner values with people and hearing what theirs are (those tend to be more conceptual in nature). Where I get exhausted is when they Fe too much, so it becomes all about obligation and emotiveness and usually practical/detailed conformance to standards.

I hope so, your perverted friend might make me puke.
I know, I know... Cocker spaniels are so much more attractive, aren't they?

[director]

Wow - ive read a few threads and it seems the ESTJ's of this world are not that popular with other types! However as this is my first post I thought I would refer to the question at hand and say that my husband is an ISFJ and is an incredible human being. Great husband, father, friend, stern but fair boss and incredible sportsman - respected by many, sometimes seen as arrogant (just quiet) honest and hardworking. Also built like a body builder (which doesnt hurt!)

[Park]

Great husband, father, friend, stern but fair boss and incredible sportsman - respected by many, sometimes seen as arrogant (just quiet) honest and hardworking. Also built like a body builder (which doesnt hurt!)

Hi and welcome. Strange how so little words about the things we appreciate and emphazise in our SOs can tell so much about ourself. Without looking at your type letters in your profile, the above description would never have been made by an INTP.

BTW - the bitter vibrations you get from some of the posts inhere are mainly just a result of us being out numbered by this worlds SJs.

[director]

Thankyou for the welcome :-) Your comments are interesting and accurate. I value traditional 'male' qualities but my husband also is caring and affectionate - I guess I got the whole package!! So whats the go with the anti ESTJ club? Whats so awful - (I am happy as an ESTJ and have no need or desire to change) - about this type? Can you shed any light on this?

[Park]

Thankyou for the welcome :-) Your comments are interesting and accurate. I value traditional 'male' qualities but my husband also is caring and affectionate - I guess I got the whole package!! So whats the go with the anti ESTJ club? Whats so awful - (I am happy as an ESTJ and have no need or desire to change) - about this type? Can you shed any light on this?

There's no anti ESTJ club that I'm aware of. As I said, simply many INTPs frustration about being outnumbered and therefore sometimes invalidated out there in the real world - majority rules. I don't believe that people should change, not being true to ones nature and trying to adjust to the demands of society in a manner which sometimes resembles self-violation seems to be why quite a few INTPs are miserable in the first place.

[ptide]

Park: A real man will have his values and principles set straight and will act accordingly. Peer pressure and needing to fit in was left behind in adolescence. He would take responsibility for his actions and protect those he cares about.

director: The workplace is all about ESTJ beaurocracy.. INFP's are the opposite of everything you are.. yet we are often stuck in jobs which are fun and exciting for you, but boring mindless valueless tedium for us. We get burnt out in the system way to fast.. we are required to behave in ways that are the exact opposite of our nature.. because you see rules, systems, protocols, meetings, reports as the proper way to do things.. (any other way doesn't make sense to you).. we are about flexibility, creativity and value. All the structures you create squeeze life and possibilities out of the picture.

Tolerance is not an ESTJ catch word either. You expect everyone to behave the same way you do.. for an INFP that is soul destroying we require great flexibility. Not knowing what to do may be scary for you, but we find use for our skills, we go wherever we are needed, we can jump between projects and work on other peoples stuff and reinvent ourselves and everthing we do daily.

park: go to infp.globalchatter.com there you'll find an Anti-ESTJ club. I suppose INTP's are able to cope better with ESTJ's simply because there is quite a strong logic to their style. But our 'F' side rebels against the cold hard logic and the lack of empathy and tolerance within the system. It is dead and strives toward no greater good than to replicate itself..

ESTJ examples- cube shaped spaceships everywhere. The Vogons and the Borg.

[Carebear]

ptide, I like you allready.

[abweichend]

Park: A real man will have his values and principles set straight and will act accordingly. Peer pressure and needing to fit in was left behind in adolescence. He would take responsibility for his actions and protect those he cares about.

director: The workplace is all about ESTJ beaurocracy.. INFP's are the opposite of everything you are.. yet we are often stuck in jobs which are fun and exciting for you, but boring mindless valueless tedium for us. We get burnt out in the system way to fast.. we are required to behave in ways that are the exact opposite of our nature.. because you see rules, systems, protocols, meetings, reports as the proper way to do things.. (any other way doesn't make sense to you).. we are about flexibility, creativity and value. All the structures you create squeeze life and possibilities out of the picture.

Tolerance is not an ESTJ catch word either. You expect everyone to behave the same way you do.. for an INFP that is soul destroying we require great flexibility. Not knowing what to do may be scary for you, but we find use for our skills, we go wherever we are needed, we can jump between projects and work on other peoples stuff and reinvent ourselves and everthing we do daily.

park: go to infp.globalchatter.com there you'll find an Anti-ESTJ club. I suppose INTP's are able to cope better with ESTJ's simply because there is quite a strong logic to their style. But our 'F' side rebels against the cold hard logic and the lack of empathy and tolerance within the system. It is dead and strives toward no greater good than to replicate itself..

ESTJ examples- cube shaped spaceships everywhere. The Vogons and the Borg.

ESTJs make great bosses because they keep you INFP hooligans from slacking off. ;P

[Park]

In context with your post, first word which comes to mind is invalidation. If you'r interested, here are some various links on and related to the subject.

http://www.eqi.org/invalid.htm
http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=5750
http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=14132

Park: A real man will have his values and principles set straight and will act accordingly. Peer pressure and needing to fit in was left behind in adolescence. He would take responsibility for his actions and protect those he cares about.

1. Invalidation.
I agree that your description above portraits a clear thinking person in balance. However, using the term *real/right* in context with men/women indicates that the opposite i.e. *unreal/wrong* exists as well.

In other words, a man who do not have his values and principles set straight and acts accordingly. Who lays under for peer pressure and has a need to fit. Who for some reason is not able to take responsibility for his actions and protect those he cares about, *is not a real man*.

I believe in people doing their best in all aspects of life, if you do your *absolute best*, who are intitled to ask more? The above definition of a *real man* fits societal standarts very well, he plays the hero role in every American action movie. While I find the portrayed character traits in your description admirable, I dislike the thought of invalidating a man who does his *absolute best* in life and still don't manage to live up to that standart.

director: The workplace is all about ESTJ beaurocracy.. INFP's are the opposite of everything you are.. yet we are often stuck in jobs which are fun and exciting for you, but boring mindless valueless tedium for us. We get burnt out in the system way to fast.. we are required to behave in ways that are the exact opposite of our nature.. because you see rules, systems, protocols, meetings, reports as the proper way to do things.. (any other way doesn't make sense to you).. we are about flexibility, creativity and value. All the structures you create squeeze life and possibilities out of the picture.

Tolerance is not an ESTJ catch word either. You expect everyone to behave the same way you do.. for an INFP that is soul destroying we require great flexibility. Not knowing what to do may be scary for you, but we find use for our skills, we go wherever we are needed, we can jump between projects and work on other peoples stuff and reinvent ourselves and everthing we do daily.

2. Invalidation.
This is exactly why I question value based adjectives like real/right unreal/wrong in context with people. I think most INF/TPs have problems fitting into the EST/FJ world and when we fail to do so we are defined as *wrong*.

park: go to infp.globalchatter.com there you'll find an Anti-ESTJ club. I suppose INTP's are able to cope better with ESTJ's simply because there is quite a strong logic to their style. But our 'F' side rebels against the cold hard logic and the lack of empathy and tolerance within the system. It is dead and strives toward no greater good than to replicate itself..

ESTJ examples- cube shaped spaceships everywhere. The Vogons and the Borg.

3. Invalidation.
I have visited infp.globalchatter.com but the place reminds me of the things I fail to live up to, in the eyes of standart society, as a woman. Just like your assumption above makes me gues that INTPc reminds you of the things you fail to live up in the eyes of standart society, as a man.

[lafz]

ptide,

Honestly, the transparent certainty of your assertions and prejudices makes you sound like an XSFJ yourself.

[meshou]

I don't find F men sexy.

[Hustler]

I don't find F men sexy.

What about T men with piles of skulls beneath their feet?

[tatsutahime6]

I don't find F men sexy.

I don't find Fi men sexy... there's just something about having to 'rescue' your boyfriend at the beach from 4-feet of water, and then getting guilt-tripped for not considering his sensitivity after you get angry at him for not telling you he couldn't swim in the first place. Just... not... sexy.

[Park]

What about T men with piles of skulls beneath their feet?

I love alpha males (especially rosted and pre-marinated in a delicious chilli sauce - yum yum).

[Park]

I don't find F men sexy.

I did feel attracted to some - for strange reasons, the attraction wasn't mutual though....

[venerationOFrabbits]

I don't find F men sexy.

Certain F men are sexy. The only problem is nothing else ever gets done.

[meshou]

What about T men with piles of skulls beneath their feet?Very animus-y, but twice my age. Plus I like em able to wear the same pant size I do. :smooch:

[meshou]

I don't find Fi men sexy... there's just something about having to 'rescue' your boyfriend at the beach from 4-feet of water, and then getting guilt-tripped for not considering his sensitivity after you get angry at him for not telling you he couldn't swim in the first place. Just... not... sexy.And then Fe ones whine. It's slightly better if they're Js or introverts (or both), but goddamn, no man should be higher drama than his girlfriend.

[Hustler]

:smooch:

I'll ignore all the preamble and just take that as a yes.

[meshou]

I'll ignore all the preamble and just take that as a yes.Now THAT'S sexy. I could write books on why that works.

[Hustler]

Now THAT'S sexy. I could write books on why that works.

So that's what you're writing. You'd better not let enigmacrypt hear.

[ptide]

Park: I do sometimes feel invalidated.. but I wouldn't consider myself a victim at all. There are alot of things about society that I don't like, dominant attitudes that I stumble across like dead ends in mazes. I go 'arghh dammit' then retrace my steps and continue my search for the path of least resistance through life.

Thanks for pulling me up on my wording with wrong/right, good/bad, etc. Sometimes I use extremes to get my point across, but of course these things are not black and white, they are shades. (by the way, I don't consider myself a real man yet.. I'm 21 and I live at home with parents).

I also understand what you mean with the T/F dichotomy. For both INFP's and INTP's we tend to be the extremes of both F and T. So since F is considered feminine and T is considered masculine, we are both pretty screwed :P

tatsutahime6 and meshou: I'm not attracted to T types myself. They'd kill my thunder by being so cool and uninterested in an emotional connection.

lafz The certainty I have for my assertions and prejudices makes me an INFP. XSFJ's are alot more mainstream in their ideas, like kids dying of aids, they would tackle the much more obvious problems, than the subtle sociological imbalances that myers briggs highlights.

[ptide]

How come all the smilies here on the INTP forum look eviller than normal?

:P is supposed to be happy tongue just stuck out.. not a hard blown raspberry

[tatsutahime6]

And then Fe ones whine. It's slightly better if they're Js or introverts (or both), but goddamn, no man should be higher drama than his girlfriend.

Yes, the whining can be intolerable at times. But at least Fe men are considerate, gentlemanly and capable (when their Ti is developed) of rational thought. This, as opposed to the Fi's "my feelings! ME!" and their """"Logic."""" (Note the quadruple quotes.)

Example:

tatsutahime6 is misses work due to a bad case of the flu. Boyfriend calls, and upon hearing this replies in the following manner, depending on preferred function:


Te male: "I don't want it. Stay the hell away."
Ti male: "Oh. So I guess you won't be coming out tonight." OR "I don't want it. Stay the hell away."
Fi male: "Oh, that's terrible. (But if you were a vegetarian and had more faith in God, you wouldn't have caught the flu in the first place.)"
Fe male: "I'll be over this evening to check on you. Is there anything you'd like me to pick up from the store?" I opt for 2a. or 4.

[Sackanaka]

If balance is a valid function type, I'd say I'm an INXP. What troubles me most is, despite my reasoning telling me that balance allows for utilizing the benefits of both modes, there are problems which cause a conflict of action to take. Basically, to act "on feelings" or "logically", either case intuited to have relatively equally valued pros and cons.

Anyway, does this whine count as e or i?

[tatsutahime6]

I'm not attracted to T types myself. They'd kill my thunder by being so cool and uninterested in an emotional connection.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that T type females are uninterested in emotional connections. It might, however, be fair to say that our idea of what an emotional connection is and how it should be expressed is (often) far different than that of F types. But then again, I'm just one INTP female so I have no authority to speak for all of us.

[lafz]

The certainty I have for my assertions and prejudices makes me an INFP. XSFJ's are alot more mainstream in their ideas, like kids dying of aids, they would tackle the much more obvious problems, than the subtle sociological imbalances that myers briggs highlights.

You may be right although I didn't detect any trace of subtlety in your arguments. Then again, as you said, you were using extremes to make a point. The inherent problem in using MBTI to examine subtle psychological and sociological differences is that various outlines of personality types are often oversimplifications. It's hard to deny that these types can also be characterized as systematic assortments of labels, many of which can and often does overlap. For instance, your conception of an ideal man struck me as ideals that are valued by most feelers and even thinkers, regardless of gender. In Western civilization, individual identity tends to take precedence over collective identity. Hence, there are a lot of people in western cultures with mutual goals, however implicit they may be, to evolve into their chosen identity. What struck me as misleading was that you managed to paint this general group into one small subset, delivering a thinly veiled rant against its supposed detractors. Your situation is not at all uncommon with the exception of possibly being, according to you, an intense male feeler. Angst, frustration with mundane work, anxiety from taking the first steps to adulthood....These themes have been done to death by a vast majority.

In response to your comment on ISFJs, do you believe that external actions are more indicative of personality than internal motivations and concerns? The search for the self and understanding socio-psycholigical complexities seem to be a common theme amongst INFPs. What makes you think ISFJs don't delve into these issues to the same degree that INFPs do?

[meshou]

tatsutahime6 and meshou: I'm not attracted to T types myself. They'd kill my thunder by being so cool and uninterested in an emotional connection.I'm plenty interested in emotional connection.

Which means more, hearing "I love you" all the time, or remembering every single time you heard it, what was going on, and how it made you feel?

Which impresses you more, someone who is passionate about a few select things, or someone who visibly cares as much about burnt toast as they do starving kids in Africa?

I want stability, rationality, someone who loves me and who isn't just in love with being in love. I don't need a guy whose PMS hits him harder than mine does me, nor one whose morality depends on how he feels that day.

[tatsutahime6]

I'm plenty interested in emotional connection.

Which means more, hearing "I love you" all the time, or remembering every single time you heard it, what was going on, and how it made you feel?

Which impresses you more, someone who is passionate about a few select things, or someone who visibly cares as much about burnt toast as they do starving kids in Africa?

I want stability, rationality, someone who loves me and who isn't just in love with being in love. I don't need a guy whose PMS hits him harder than mine does me, nor one whose morality depends on how he feels that day.

Amen.

[wildcat]

Stop talking about me.
The masculine culture is action oriented. Indubitably the best sportsmen by nature are the ESTPs.
They are lazy and indulgent and they rarely reach the top.
The ESTJs win the medals.

It is not only the masculine culture that is dull and boring.
The feminine culture is also dull and boring.

Edit: I followed the order.

[Park]

Park: I do sometimes feel invalidated.. but I wouldn't consider myself a victim at all. There are alot of things about society that I don't like, dominant attitudes that I stumble across like dead ends in mazes. I go 'arghh dammit' then retrace my steps and continue my search for the path of least resistance through life.

Thanks for pulling me up on my wording with wrong/right, good/bad, etc. Sometimes I use extremes to get my point across, but of course these things are not black and white, they are shades. (by the way, I don't consider myself a real man yet.. I'm 21 and I live at home with parents).

I also understand what you mean with the T/F dichotomy. For both INFP's and INTP's we tend to be the extremes of both F and T. So since F is considered feminine and T is considered masculine, we are both pretty screwed :P

Just a bit.... I understand about exaggerating in order to make a point though. It gets easier when people get to know each other thought - so we have an insight into what each other stands for.

[Burtblahblahblah]

Hmm, I'm an INFP male, and I don't really recognise much of what is being said here. Maybe you're going on the uber-sensitive 110% F image that seems to be prevalent.

I play quite a lot of sport, but not in the aggressive I'm-an-utter-git way. I like to be competitive and do well, but I don't get particularly angry (except with myself when I perform poorly, i.e. most of the time). I guess we're also quite principled, because if it's something we don't agree with, then it makes us feel bad. Hence, I don't drink and I'm a vegetarian. But

Which all doesn't sound very male. Then again, we'll stand up for what we believe in, we're loyal, we're in touch with our feelings and we're empathetic to the needs of others. I think it makes up for it.

[htb]

It is not only the masculine culture that is dull and boring.
The feminine culture is also dull and boring.What does that leave you, Wildcat? Eunuchs?

[Dirty-American-Devil]

1. Invalidation.
I agree that your description above portraits a clear thinking person in balance. However, using the term *real/right* in context with men/women indicates that the opposite i.e. *unreal/wrong* exists as well.

In other words, a man who do not have his values and principles set straight and acts accordingly. Who lays under for peer pressure and has a need to fit. Who for some reason is not able to take responsibility for his actions and protect those he cares about, *is not a real man*.

I believe in people doing their best in all aspects of life, if you do your *absolute best*, who are intitled to ask more? The above definition of a *real man* fits societal standarts very well, he plays the hero role in every American action movie. While I find the portrayed character traits in your description

And not everyone grows into being a man either. Its a win/loose stituation in my book I believe. Almost doesn't cut it. Just because you tried doesn't make you a winner. Just like trying to be a man doesn't make you one.

[Park]

And not everyone grows into being a man either. Its a win/loose stituation in my book I believe. Almost doesn't cut it. Just because you tried doesn't make you a winner. Just like trying to be a man doesn't make you one.

Biologically, every boy, who doesn't die before hand, does grow up to become a man. A man is a man, if your dictionary translate *man* with *winner* or *real*- fine.

[meshou]

And not everyone grows into being a man either. Its a win/loose stituation in my book I believe. Almost doesn't cut it. Just because you tried doesn't make you a winner. Just like trying to be a man doesn't make you one.The concept of "man" encompasses the ideas of loser and soldier very comfortably. "Man" isn't a word of praise any more than "woman" is.

[director]

Thanks for the info Ptide. Can I just enlighten you a few atributes that you may not have found in other ESTJ's. I am definetley ESTJ to the core. Workahololic, on every committee you could think of, love sport (although I dont play anymore) love commitment, order, structure and protocol however I love to be surrounded by people who are different to me. My great love, my children, are ESTJ (13 yr old son) and XNFP (daughter 11 yrs) (I or E depending on the day and situation) and I love that my son is orderly and hard working like me but I LOVE that my daughter is the free spirited, creative, passionate dreamer that I could never be and I admire in her all that I am not so ESTJ's may be painfully rigid and so much more but they can also appreciate what they are, what they're not and what all the other types have to offer. I do hate her messy room though but I accept that is her space and thats how she likes it!!!!

[Jennifer]

park: go to infp.globalchatter.com there you'll find an Anti-ESTJ club. I suppose INTP's are able to cope better with ESTJ's simply because there is quite a strong logic to their style. But our 'F' side rebels against the cold hard logic and the lack of empathy and tolerance within the system. It is dead and strives toward no greater good than to replicate itself.

Hmmm. Wouldn't go that far about them.

I did find (with my one large experience with ESTJ) is that we had a commonality in the Thinking area... but because his was Te and mine Ti, it took awhile for us to recognize it for what it was in each other, and come to respect each other's "logic."

I came off as wishy-washy, unorganized, wavering, and vague, and I thought he was over-controlling, couldn't let things go, and unable to accept his own humanity/weaknesses.

But after we got to know each other better, he came to see my quiet resilience and commitment to things I believed in, and I appreciated his direct hard-headedness in some ways and also saw it as integrity of a sort -- the very thinking skills you mention.

Ironically (since you have mentioned Star Trek), he's head of the Trek-Trak program at the Atlanta Dragon*Con... or at least used to be, many years in the running.

My wife had an ESTJ for a boss a little while as well. You basically have to prove that you're not a BS'er and that, when the chips are down, you're competent and reliable and persevering. That usually earns their respect.

[ptide]

With ESTJ's the issue is not that they are determined to crush us INFP's. You just don't see the world the same way we do. We are hugely productive internally with our ideas and insights, however the ESTJ world we live in demands visible productivity, reports, paper, etc.

We explore the world and you come behind to map it out. But there is no space for explorers any more.

The ESTJ juggernaut has now gone mad. It seeks for the world to simply conform for the map makers.. no surprises, just behave. When things don't fit they don't change their approach they just build another system to cope and attach it to the original. In the end you have a collossus of rules, procedures, systems and protocols which were designed as an endless patch work.

Like Windows XP

[tatsutahime6]

With ESTJ's the issue is not that they are determined to crush us INFP's. You just don't see the world the same way we do. We are hugely productive internally with our ideas and insights, however the ESTJ world we live in demands visible productivity, reports, paper, etc.

We explore the world and you come behind to map it out. But there is no space for explorers any more.

What's this 'you'? You've pretty much described an INTP as much as you did an INFP, the only difference being our approach to exploration and the fields we explore.

The ESTJ juggernaut has now gone mad. It seeks for the world to simply conform for the map makers.. no surprises, just behave. When things don't fit they don't change their approach they just build another system to cope and attach it to the original. In the end you have a collossus of rules, procedures, systems and protocols which were designed as an endless patch work.

Like Windows XP

Just remember. Without people like that, who would clean up after us?

[meshou]

What's this 'you'? You've pretty much described an INTP as much as you did an INFP, the only difference being our approach to exploration and the fields we explore.Exactly.

I don't think they can keep us down, really. They're just people. They breathe and bleed like anyone else.

To ptide: There's nothing wrong with wanting visible productivity. Why not demand it of yourself? Balance is good. Don't be afraid of your own (http://psikoloji.fisek.com.tr/jung/shadow.htm) shadow. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Jung#The_shadow)

*meshou hums 46&2 (http://www.lyricsfreak.com/t/tool/fortysix+amp+2_10234415.html) to herself, and reminds herself to save for that tattoo*

[attila_the_hunny]

Te male: "I don't want it. Stay the hell away."
Ti male: "Oh. So I guess you won't be coming out tonight." OR "I don't want it. Stay the hell away."
Fi male: "Oh, that's terrible. (But if you were a vegetarian and had more faith in God, you wouldn't have caught the flu in the first place.)"
Fe male: "I'll be over this evening to check on you. Is there anything you'd like me to pick up from the store?" I opt for 2a. or 4.


I've been with a couple Ts before, and their main concern was for me to get better--and do what they could to help. Just because they're a T doesn't mean they don't care. I was recently sick and my INTJ went out and bought me tissues and orange juice. I wouldn't even ask for orange juice and he'd come home with it the next day.
Likewise, I would also do the same for someone I cared about, and I'm a T as well.

[tatsutahime6]

I've been with a couple Ts before, and their main concern was for me to get better--and do what they could to help. Just because they're a T doesn't mean they don't care. I was recently sick and my INTJ went out and bought me tissues and orange juice. I wouldn't even ask for orange juice and he'd come home with it the next day.
Likewise, I would also do the same for someone I cared about, and I'm a T as well.

So would I, and I'm a T as well. My main objective was to overgeneralize all types -- in particular, Fi men, with whom I have deep-seated resentment because of a couple of miserably failed INTP-INFP relationships in the past (both of which ended in tears -- mine as well as theirs). And as consolation to all INFP men on the forum, I will admit one thing: This was as much my fault for being an insensitive, flinty icequeen as it was their fault for being whiny crybabies. I just want to hear them say the same thing, with the same exact words, just in opposite order.

But I'm going off-topic... the initial purpose of posting was to express my personal opinion that I find Fe men attractive as opposed to Fi men. So in short, every once in a while, I just have a compelling urge to sterotype people in order to get my point across. Sorry.

[Capitu]

[B]director: The workplace is all about ESTJ beaurocracy.. INFP's are the opposite of everything you are.. yet we are often stuck in jobs which are fun and exciting for you, but boring mindless valueless tedium for us. We get burnt out in the system way to fast.. we are required to behave in ways that are the exact opposite of our nature.. because you see rules, systems, protocols, meetings, reports as the proper way to do things.. (any other way doesn't make sense to you).. we are about flexibility, creativity and value. All the structures you create squeeze life and possibilities out of the picture.

I worked with ESTJs, I can see the need for rules, protocols, etc... Once they learn to trust you, they will let you do a lot of changes. If the goal is the same, you just have to learn how to work together and use each other strengths

Tolerance is not an ESTJ catch word either. You expect everyone to behave the same way you do.. for an INFP that is soul destroying we require great flexibility. Not knowing what to do may be scary for you, but we find use for our skills, we go wherever we are needed, we can jump between projects and work on other peoples stuff and reinvent ourselves and everything we do daily.

Again, you have to earn they trust first.

park: go to infp.globalchatter.com there you'll find an Anti-ESTJ club. I suppose INTP's are able to cope better with ESTJ's simply because there is quite a strong logic to their style. But our 'F' side rebels against the cold hard logic and the lack of empathy and tolerance within the system. It is dead and strives toward no greater good than to replicate itself..

ESTJ examples- cube shaped spaceships everywhere. The Vogons and the Borg.

I must not be an INFP. I get along well with ESTJs, I like the fact that they tell what they think, it saves me time trying to decipher what is going on underneath. The anti-ESTJ clubs are ridiculous, one of the reasons I avoid going to INFPg. In my space, there is a community called "INFPs against ESTJs" or something like that. Again... pure ignorance. Listen to meshou don't be afraid of your shadow.
That is what pisses me off with some INFPs, they claim to be so good and generous and treat people like that.

[Carebear]

Again... pure ignorance. Listen to meshou don't be afraid of your shadow.
That is what pisses me off with some INFPs, they claim to be so good and generous and treat people like that.

I'm not afraid of my shadow, but I can get terribly annoyed by it. I have no problems with bashing ESTJs online as most ESTJs I've met have had no problem bashing me IRL. Coping mechanism I guess. I don't claim to be so good and generous, though. Not deep down.

However, I don't think online ESTJ bashing has anything to do with how you treat people. I'd never treat any individual bad just because of their type. Besides, I tend to treat all people politely, and simply avoid contact with individuals I don't get along well with.

Bashing a type online and mistreating an individual RL is as far appart as telling a "Dead Baby Joke" online and going out IRL to paint a house with a baby.

[Capitu]

Bashing a type online and mistreating an individual RL is as far appart as telling a "Dead Baby Joke" online and going out IRL to paint a house with a baby.

Hmmm... interesting, let me try to explain what I mean... do you think most people will know the difference? It's natural to avoid people you don't get along with, my point is once a person/group starts to dehumanize/demean an entire group of people based on personality traits (in our case, but could be color/gender, etc) do you think the majority will find a reason to feel victimized and further push their fears into that group or will they look into it with open eyes?
When you have a group called "INFPs against ESTJs", what does that mean? Does it mean, "hey we don't get along!" or does it say "They are bad, we are good, let's cruzade". How many of the people that belong to that group will stop and think "hey, we are different, but people are individuals and assuming that all ESTJs are evil is equivalent to saying "Blacks/Whites are inferior".
I'm not sure if I'm explaining it correctly.

[Jennifer]

I'm not afraid of my shadow, but I can get terribly annoyed by it. I have no problems with bashing ESTJs online as most ESTJs I've met have had no problem bashing me IRL. Coping mechanism I guess. I don't claim to be so good and generous, though. Not deep down.

However, I don't think online ESTJ bashing has anything to do with how you treat people. I'd never treat any individual bad just because of their type. Besides, I tend to treat all people politely, and simply avoid contact with individuals I don't get along well with.

Bashing a type online and mistreating an individual RL is as far appart as telling a "Dead Baby Joke" online and going out IRL to paint a house with a baby.


I don't agree with the last paragraph (the "dead baby" is accepted to be a "joke" but is just considered to be in "very bad taste" by some; while the former is criticism of a group of people as a whole, which is taken as prejudice by some and not as a joke at all).

I think it's a fine line between complaining/bashing a type and having a negative attitude that can filter over into RL.

I am more careful nowadays of busting on a particular type, even if some of the common behaviors personally irk me. I didn't used to be as careful; but beside creating unnecessary friction when said people would stumble across the comment, my attitude has become much more that we are all of equal value and that INTP is just one of many.

(I intellectually believed that for a long time; but it took me quite awhile for my actual subconscious attitude to adjust.)

When that attitude is intellectually understood but not yet incorporated into the subconscious, there's still some tension under the surface of all criticism; and believe it or not, it DOES impact (in subtle ways sometimes) how we respond to people in RL.

Having played the withdrawal game in RL for many many years, I see it as an avoidance mechanism, not just from them but from change -- I dislike someone's personality, so I withdraw so that I do not need to accommodate it and thus "change." I withdraw so that I am not forced to do the hard work of developing a positive attitude towards someone despite my frustration with them.

When I'm not inclined to withdraw even when I find myself annoyed by someone or something, I take that as a sign that I am truly starting to appreciate people of different types than myself on the subconscious level.

(Note: I'll give you the point, though, that ESTJ can come across as judgmental and condescending. Yeah, that's irksome.)

[Carebear]

Hmmm... interesting, let me try to explain what I mean... do you think most people will know the difference? It's natural to avoid people you don't get along with, my point is once a person/group starts to dehumanize/demean an entire group of people based on personality traits (in our case, but could be color/gender, etc) do you think the majority will find a reason to feel victimized and further push their fears into that group or will they look into it with open eyes?
When you have a group called "INFPs against ESTJs", what does that mean? Does it mean, "hey we don't get along!" or does it say "They are bad, we are good, let's cruzade". How many of the people that belong to that group will stop and think "hey, we are different, but people are individuals and assuming that all ESTJs are evil is equivalent to saying "Blacks/Whites are inferior".
I'm not sure if I'm explaining it correctly.

Yes, I get what you're saying. And I agree of course that starting groups like "INFPs against ESTJs" is stupid. Digging trenches bridges no gap, of course, but when you feel you're allready under heavy fire, I kinda understand the people who feel that a trench might be a good idea after all.

But you're right, of course. We should say: "Hey, we don't get along!" and not "Kill the infidels!". It's just that when you're a minority groop of fluffy, head-in-the-clouds artists and thinkers and the people you don't get along with are bosses, consultatns with new brilliant ideas of how to make the world more effective (read: a bunch of drivel, numbers picked out of the sky with no basis in reality and no strategy to get there except "work harder", "pull together", "efficiency", "synergy" and other catch phrases from the corporate bingo-sheet), and the corporate world in general, it's kind of hard to simply say: "Hey, we don't get along."

It feels like saying "hey, we don't get along" to fundamentalist muslims or the Bush Administration. When their different views get a direct impact on my personal life and space, and when they're the majority, I feel entitled to at least vent a little online.

Not that it'll do any good, though. The Crusades of the INFPs normally end abruptly when an ESTJ stumbles in and say: "Hey, are you talking to me?"

"Erm.. no.. eh.. I was talking about some... other ESTJs..."

"I don't want to hear such words ever spoken again, understood?!?"

*sobs* "No, sir."

"Now get a haircut, get to work and stop that pathetic whining!"

"Mumble mumble growl"

"What was that?!?"

"Eh... nothing sir, sorry..."

[Capitu]

Not that it'll do any good, though. The Crusades of the INFPs normally end abruptly when an ESTJ stumbles in and say: "Hey, are you talking to me?"

"Erm.. no.. eh.. I was talking about some... other ESTJs..."

"I don't want to hear such words ever spoken again, understood?!?"

*sobs* "No, sir."

"Now get a haircut, get to work and stop that pathetic whining!"

"Mumble mumble growl"

"What was that?!?"

"Eh... nothing sir, sorry..."

:rofl: Again... funny, you can't stop yourself, can you?

Now, I may be in advantage in regards to ESTJs, because I grew up with an ESTJ. In the beginning she used to order me around, I started to get bothered and told my dad (ISTJ) and he taught me how to deal with it... and it works like this:

Her: Can you get some water for me?
Me: No, you have legs and hands, go get yourself.

Now she is a lot more "hard headed" than the ESTJs males I know, but I guess it is because she is a woman and have to assert herself in a male dominant business world. The ESTJs males I know seem to be less abrupt than my friend.

My friend for example, sometimes she is trying to pay a compliment, but she is too blunt and may be perceived as mean. I talked a lot with her about MBTI and tried to understand how she reasons, it is actually pretty interesting. Example of her trying to pay a compliment to me:

Her: Hey, OMG!! You did your nails!!! I can't believe!! See... You can be smart and not look like shit.
Me: What??!! *gets defensive*

Only later I realized that I missed her point, she actually was saying that I was smart and that she liked my nails.

Edit - Oh forget it, I guess we are derailing the thread.

[Carebear]

I don't agree with the last paragraph (the "dead baby" is accepted to be a "joke" but is just considered to be in "very bad taste" by some; while the former is criticism of a group of people as a whole, which is taken as prejudice by some and not as a joke at all).

My point was that there's a major difference between online joking/ranting and real life actions/attitude. Besides, Dead Baby jokes aren't really considered "in very bad taste" by the people seeking them out, any more than type bashing (normally) is considered objective truth by the people seeking it out. It's just rants.


I think it's a fine line between complaining/bashing a type and having a negative attitude that can filter over into RL.

True, but in the case of INFPs ranting about ESTJs, I have a feeling it's real life experiences filtering over into generalization rants online. Maybe it filters back again as well, who knows, but personally I'm capable of meeting ESTJs and other people as individuals even if I've never had extremely good experiences with similar people earlier.


I am more careful nowadays of busting on a particular type, even if some of the common behaviors personally irk me. I didn't used to be as careful; but beside creating unnecessary friction when said people would stumble across the comment, my attitude has become much more that we are all of equal value and that INTP is just one of many.

Agreed. Still, when those people suddenly start telling me we're not of equal value and step way to close, creating unnecessary friction, I don't feel obligated to like that person an more, be he ESTJ or (hasn't happened yet) INFP.


(I intellectually believed that for a long time; but it took me quite awhile for my actual subconscious attitude to adjust.)

When that attitude is intellectually understood but not yet incorporated into the subconscious, there's still some tension under the surface of all criticism; and believe it or not, it DOES impact (in subtle ways sometimes) how we respond to people in RL.

Bah, that's probably true. Ok, I guess I'll have to do some soul searching on that one.


Having played the withdrawal game in RL for many many years, I see it as an avoidance mechanism, not just from them but from change -- I dislike someone's personality, so I withdraw so that I do not need to accommodate it and thus "change." I withdraw so that I am not forced to do the hard work of developing a positive attitude towards someone despite my frustration with them.

Bah. Yes it's an avoidance mechanism. And yes, I work quite along these lines, I suspect. But: I can have a very positive view of people I really dislike and avoid. I am able to judge their value without considering my subjective feelings towards them. Problem is, often I see the actions of ESTJs as counterproductive to their and my goal alike. ENTJs now... I've met some real bastard ENTJs who I still valued even though their personality repulsed me. As long as they achieved what they set out to do (I disagreed with the goal even, but accepted it and admired the way they propelled things towards that goal.) I do see the value of several ESTJs as well, but only those that have had a concrete task to fulfill. As bosses or people with higher authority than be... bah!


When I'm not inclined to withdraw even when I find myself annoyed by someone or something, I take that as a sign that I am truly starting to appreciate people of different types than myself on the subconscious level.


Ok, I will do some searching on the subconscious level. I have a feeling empiri has made me somewhat prejudiced.


(Note: I'll give you the point, though, that ESTJ can come across as judgmental and condescending. Yeah, that's irksome.)

Thanks! Irksome indeed.

[Carebear]

:rofl: Again... funny, you can't stop yourself, can you?


:huh: I'm not even sure what I'm doing, so apparently not.


Now, I may be in advantage in regards to ESTJs, because I grew up with an ESTJ. In the beginning she used to order me around, I started to get bothered and told my dad (ISTJ) and he taught me how to deal with it... and it works like this:

Her: Can you get some water for me?
Me: No, you have legs and hands, go get yourself.


I've found the same recently. However, this only works if she/he doesn't have/percieve to have any authority in the relation. It bothers me (disliking confrontations) that the ESTJs I've met seemed to need some sort of pecking order, so that I'd either have to play alpha or accept that they assumed the role. They really seemed uncomfortable with the concept of being on equal footing unless we were both subject to a third person playing alpha. If I went against this third person alpha male/female in anything, they'd be there snapping at me to get me back in line.


Now she is a lot more "hard headed" than the ESTJs males I know, but I guess it is because she is a woman and have to assert herself in a male dominant business world. The ESTJs males I know seem to be less abrupt than my friend.

My friend for example, sometimes she is trying to pay a compliment, but she is too blunt and may be perceived as mean. I talked a lot with her about MBTI and tried to understand how she reasons, it is actually pretty interesting. Example of her trying to pay a compliment to me:

Her: Hey, OMG!! You did your nails!!! I can't believe!! See... You can be smart and not look like shit.
Me: What??!! *gets defensive*


Hahah. I'd probably get hung up on the implied "you looked like shit previously!" as well. I'd take the compliment right away, though. Just laugh at the absurd badly formulated compliment. Not that concerned with looks, though, being a boy and not trained to care about fasade. :D


Only later I realized that I missed her point, she actually was saying that I was smart and that she liked my nails.

Edit - Oh forget it, I guess we are derailing the thread.

The thread was dying anyways. I don't think anyone cares.

[Capitu]

I've found the same recently. However, this only works if she/he doesn't have/percieve to have any authority in the relation. It bothers me (disliking confrontations) that the ESTJs I've met seemed to need some sort of pecking order, so that I'd either have to play alpha or accept that they assumed the role. They really seemed uncomfortable with the concept of being on equal footing unless we were both subject to a third person playing alpha. If I went against this third person alpha male/female in anything, they'd be there snapping at me to get me back in line.

That is true, a stupid story... As I told you growing up I had an ESTJ friend and an ENFP friend.

When I played with the ESTJ she had lots of dolls, the best doll was always hers, but as soon as you became close to the chain of command (her), meaning... she started to consider you as a closer friend, the doll improved as well, for example, when we started to play together I got the worst doll (meaning, she didn't consider me such a close friend), as soon as the friendship improved my dolls kept improving (I had no dolls myself). The day I got to her house and she gave me the best second doll, I knew immediately that she considered me her best friend.

Now, the ENFP on the other hand, she didn't have as many dolls, put she kept a very democratic system: "Today you get the best doll, next time you show up I do" and we kept switching the dolls. One day I got a doll, I was really happy, so I went to the ENFP's house dying to play with my "own and new doll", she tells me: "But today is my turn to get the best doll, and the best doll is yours". Damn, she got a point! So I accepted and gave her my doll, but it did strike me how fair she was.

Now, if you think about it, they both had different systems, which one is correct? Of course I would side with the ENFP, maybe you too. However the ESTJs system is not invalid, it is just different. It is the way they reason in their minds how things should work. They need the structure, you can work with them, build their trust slowly or you can crash with them. I garantee that once you gain their trust, they will do anything to help you. Edit - at least has been my experience.

[Carebear]

Now, if you think about it, they both had different systems, which one is correct? Of course I would side with the ENFP, maybe you too. However the ESTJs system is not invalid, it is just different. It is the way they reason in their minds how things should work. They need the structure, you can work with them, build their trust slowly or you can crash with them. I garantee that once you gain their trust, they will do anything to help you. Edit - at least has been my experience.

Haha, funny story, and it illustrates my point extremely well. I agree that the ESTJ system is by no means invalid. It's just that it clashes way too much with mine, so instead of spending huge amounts of energy by doing it their way (i don't have that much social energy to begin with), I go with the *insert any N* instead, since that costs me less and gives me more.

I see that there's nothing objectively wrong with them, but I avoid them if I can. If I can't avoid them, I do my best to understand them and find win-win situations, but that's bloody hard, as I feel their system clashes with my chances of winning and vice versa.

I have no problems with ESTPs, even if they can be total pricks sometimes (read: we have little in common, neither goals, means, communication method etc.), as their system don't infringe on my possibilities. I only have problems with people who have opinions about what I should and shouldn't do and when I should or shouldn't do it.

I still agree though. Bashing them really isn't very productive. Even a bit ignorant. I'll probably still do it on ocasion though, as I'm bound to bump into them involuntarily every now and then and need to rant a bit. :)

[Capitu]

I still agree though. Bashing them really isn't very productive. Even a bit ignorant. I'll probably still do it on ocasion though, as I'm bound to bump into them involuntarily every now and then and need to rant a bit. :)

I rant, you rant, we rant, ranting/venting is necessary. Do you want to see my rant? Go to the extrovert forum. There I was ranting, Moridin came and offered me another perspective, which was interesting and I began to realise I was only blaming my own inadequacies on other people. Dont' worry, we will never be perfect, we'll rant together!:)

[Zero Angel]

Now, I may be in advantage in regards to ESTJs, because I grew up with an ESTJ. In the beginning she used to order me around, I started to get bothered and told my dad (ISTJ) and he taught me how to deal with it... and it works like this:

Her: Can you get some water for me?
Me: No, you have legs and hands, go get yourself.

I've found the same recently. However, this only works if she/he doesn't have/percieve to have any authority in the relation. It bothers me (disliking confrontations) that the ESTJs I've met seemed to need some sort of pecking order, so that I'd either have to play alpha or accept that they assumed the role. They really seemed uncomfortable with the concept of being on equal footing unless we were both subject to a third person playing alpha. If I went against this third person alpha male/female in anything, they'd be there snapping at me to get me back in line.

Interesting. My sister-in-law is an ESTJ and although she's very nice to me, when her mother asks her for a favor, she usually dismisses it, like she won't go out of her way to please anyone. It's odd though because that person doesnt fit the mode of the stereotypical ESTJ, coming across as having the slightly softer edge of the ISTJ.

Furthermore, I think that the ESTJ wants you to treat them the same way they treat you. People who 'hide their feelings' (while actually, thoughts) from the ESTJ are suspicious and not to be trusted because they expect the same straightforwardness from you as they give you (whether you want it or not).

Ultimately though, in spite of the ESTJ's normal manner, they seem to want to belong somehow or develop some sort of brotherhood with something. With that done, they are free to reject other circumstances which grants them tremendous freedom. And because their feeling process is the inferior one, and even worse, its introverted feeling. The would never be able to admit they like you. My ISTJ brother-in-law and ESTJ sister-in-law seemed to have deliberately chosen their musical tastes to fit mine. Even though they would never say that they did.

I believe that if a TJ ever accomodates you, then they really like you or trust you, because accomodation is so against their nature, that even a small gesture can mean a lot more than is readily apparent.

[digesthisickness]

That is true, a stupid story... As I told you growing up I had an ESTJ friend and an ENFP friend.

When I played with the ESTJ she had lots of dolls, the best doll was always hers, but as soon as you became close to the chain of command (her), meaning... she started to consider you as a closer friend, the doll improved as well, for example, when we started to play together I got the worst doll (meaning, she didn't consider me such a close friend), as soon as the friendship improved my dolls kept improving (I had no dolls myself). The day I got to her house and she gave me the best second doll, I knew immediately that she considered me her best friend.

Now, the ENFP on the other hand, she didn't have as many dolls, put she kept a very democratic system: "Today you get the best doll, next time you show up I do" and we kept switching the dolls. One day I got a doll, I was really happy, so I went to the ENFP's house dying to play with my "own and new doll", she tells me: "But today is my turn to get the best doll, and the best doll is yours". Damn, she got a point! So I accepted and gave her my doll, but it did strike me how fair she was.

Now, if you think about it, they both had different systems, which one is correct? Of course I would side with the ENFP, maybe you too. However the ESTJs system is not invalid, it is just different. It is the way they reason in their minds how things should work. They need the structure, you can work with them, build their trust slowly or you can crash with them. I garantee that once you gain their trust, they will do anything to help you. Edit - at least has been my experience.

i love this story!

i immediately thought of when i was a little girl and lived with someone for a while. no one allowed me to take any of my things when these 'moves' took place, so during those times, i had no toys of my own. however i did have a playmate once who would do the exact same thing with her dolls as the ESTJ did with you. and, it progressed the exact same way. i thought about it and yes, she was/is an ESTJ. until you mentioned it, i hadn't thought about how a situation such as 'playing' could be so telling.

however, when i did have my toys, a little pink bean doll was my favorite (as far as the doll category). i'd even operated on her numerous times including replacing feet 'beans' with small gravel, etc. anyway, more than once when a friend didn't have a doll, i was asked if they could play with the pink one, and i quite seriously refused. she was off-limits. however, i'd tell them to pick any other doll of mine, and they could keep it so that they'd have a doll of their own permanently ("forever and ever") to do with as they chose.

oh, and since i've gone this far, i may as well admit that i still know to this day who's playing with that pink doll. i know because she's in my bedroom closet.

i have issues.

[Zero Angel]

You mean you actually keep a doll from childhood?!

OMG. You need help. Strait jacket and muzzle type of help. ;P

[digesthisickness]

You mean you actually keep a doll from childhood?!

OMG. You need help. Strait jacket and muzzle type of help. ;P

:D

this, i never denied.

believe me, i don't want to analyze it too deeply. just going slightly into why i still guard her jealously, i start wondering if i need(ed) more hugs or something, then it gets to be too intense, and i drop it. i'll tackle it later if i'm ever in a situation in which i'm getting plenty of hugs.

[Noel]

How are you different from female types of your temperament? I wonder how testerone and the masculine culture that pervades us affects your strong feelings.

I suppose I'm a bit more feminate in nature than most men but I still consider myself as a man. Why, aside from physical attributes?

I'm not looking for a knight in shinning armour to sweep me off my feet to live happily ever after. I can live on my own. I desire someone independent, who can function without me but enjoys my company when we are together. Her being there with me alone, makes me feel worthy/special of their attention-that makes me feel strong.

Much like a reservoir, I can't remember the last time I cried. The times I do become emotional, I do not want other to endure my burden. I'm responsible for my own feelings, let alone my own actions. If people want to know, I'll tell them i.e. whenever I'm with an ENFP acquaintance, it pretty much becomes a mutual emotional masterbation party. The difference between him and I though is that he constantly attempts to cum to no avail (impotence), I can reach my climax and stop. It is almost as if he constantly projects what I am feeling and that drains me-I don't need to hear another me.

I'm not pure, innocent, or good. I am I. Everything can't exist as a binary, black and white. I strive for balance i.e can't have conflict without accord. I've enjoyed having sex with a women and have enjoyed direct contact with my prosate while masterbating. I feel I've experienced not only what a homosexual must feel but if a woman in a similiar instance must feel-I consider my sexuality to be straight.


See, heres something. I am thinking a male INFP could certainly use his Fness to get laid more than a male INTP.

Absolutely. I've come up with a set of traits that a male INFP would have in order to get some action. Granted, the INFP implied would have to be Mature, as in Unity of mind and body, complete control of his emotions, lack any doubt in his abilities and overall, functions gracefully: physically, mentally and verbally.

Benign Incubus or I Need Fucking Pussy: A tact, unbashed and graceful INFP that utilizes his "feminine" side combined with honed perception, acting on/from body language cues to get laid.

[mmortal03]

As an INFP I can assure you all that being an 'F' doesn't mean more or less testostorone. If we were to assume Thinker means thinking and Feeling means feeling, guess which type would wanna get laid more?

But that isn't what Thinking and Feeling mean in Myers Briggs. Socionics gives more accurate labels of Logic and Empathy. These terms are a little less loaded and could help clear up the confusion.

My empathy means I usually shun the traditional masculine culture. I'd feel sick at myself if I were to treat women as objects. Sport as warfare holds no appeal for me. I like to play sport for fun and competition.. but as soon as it becomes egoic, 'my team is the best' or 'such and such team sucks balls', I lose interest. I don't drink alcohol (just me - not INFP's in general) because any interaction between people whilst under the influence.. is just artificial.. it's not real.

The idea that men are supposed to be loud, obnoxious, stupid, sex-crazed and alcoholic is perpetuated by our mindless ESTJ ruling class.

We should be who we are.. and not afraid. It is moral cowardice to sink to stereotypes. Who are we fooling?... The real man will be himself and stand by his values and principles.

Those values and principles will differ from type to type. Mine are based on my empathy.. you INTP's will hold to logic.

Masculinity should not be confused with playing the sheep role.

But all of this could be said for an INTP, including myself. Maybe it wasn't ptide's point to differentiate between INTP and INFP, though, but something else that I missed.