Muslim wins Nobel Peace Prize

[Prolific]

Taken from BBC NEWS (I can't link URLs)


Muhammad Yunus of Bangladesh and the Grameen Bank have been jointly awarded the 2006 Nobel Peace Prize.

Mr Yunus, an economist, founded the bank, which is one of the pioneers of micro-credit lending schemes for the poor, especially women, in Bangladesh.

Mr Yunus, 66, said he would use the 10m Swedish kronor ($1.35m, ?730,000) prize money to "find more innovative ways" to help the poor launch businesses.

He said he was delighted at the news and proud of the bank's achievement.

"I'm very very happy. It's a great honour for us and for Bangladesh. It's a recognition of our work," he told the BBC Bengali service.

"As a Bangladeshi, I'm proud that we have given something to the world. Our work has now been recognised by the whole world. "

Surprise choice

The winners were revealed by the Nobel committee chairman, Ole Danbolt Mjoes, in Oslo

Mr Mjoes said Mr Yunus had shown himself to be a leader who had managed to translate visions into practical action for the benefit of millions of people.

He and the bank were being honoured "for their efforts to create economic and social development from below", Mr Mjoes said.

He said the bank's work in creating opportunities for large numbers of people to get out of poverty created the conditions for sustainable peace.

"Development such as this is useful in human rights and democracy," said Mr Mjoes.

The BBC's Lars Bevanger in Oslo says this year's winner caught most there by surprise.

Many commentators had expected an award to someone involved in peace talks, our correspondent says.

He says in awarding this prize to an economist, the Nobel Committee has again shown itself willing to widen the scope of the prestigious prize.

Mr Yunus set up the bank in 1976 with just $27 from his own pocket. Thirty years on, the bank has 6.6 million borrowers, of which 97% are women, according to the Grameen website.

Mr Yunus is expected to pick up the award and prize money during a ceremony in Oslo in December

[Prolific]

Mr Yunus set up the bank in 1976 with just $27from his own pocket. Thirty years on, the bank has 6.6 million borrowers, of which 97% are women, according to the Grameen website.

Amazing what you can do with a little money.

Dr. Yunus and Grameen Bank gave small loans to poor women and changed millions of poor women's (and men's) lives, directly or indirectly, not only in Bangladesh but also across the world (even here in America).

Congratulations to him. He's a good fella. Totally deserved it.

They have very good repayment rates, better than most banks or commercial lenders, and when you compare that to Bangladeshi (or Desi) institutions, then the numbers are just amazing.

*edit* The loans are given out based on trust. Informal groups recommend their group members to be creditworthy. The bank not only loans money to these people, but also teaches them some sorta skill set that would ensure that the loan would be properly utilized. Since the loan is based on trust (and not collateral), the repayment rate is usually in the mid to high 90s. Pretty amazing stuff.

Good thing about this man yunus is that after two decades of workin in anonymity, his ideas are winning converts, i mean the top world policy makers. A simple idea has rose him to the top, he deserves that nobel prize.

hopefully this propels the progress of poverty elimination even further.

Might i add there have been 2 other bengali nobel prize winners .
tagore and amartya sen. sen was brought up in Dhaka and his father taught at Dhaka university. It has also been won by Chandrasekhara (Indian) and Dr. Abdus Salam (pakistani) for physics.

It's an impressive system. I've been reading about it. He boasts a 99% repayment rate. It's based on a honor system where you're held accountable by your own peers. Therefore the repayment is high.

It has helped women mostly make a living in impoverished nations all around the world.

Fazle Abed is another Bangladeshi who has played a key role in the fight against poverty...look up BRAC (Bangladesh Rural Advancement Committee) if any of you are interested in learning more...

actually it demonstrates how capitalism DOESNT help ppl.
convential banks fail to lend to the destitute since they lack suitable collateral which is ingrained into 99percent of people as a *Necessity*. the fact that Grameen bank utilises social ostracization to ensure that people repay the loans offered to them is evidence of Socialism at work (socialism looks to the inherent good in people as its base fundamental whilst classical economics looks to peoples fundamental greed.

i presume part of the reason to give him the prize was to raise his profile exponentialy and make grameen style banks a political issue in many developing countries, i fully expect a whole bunch of new micro-credit organizations to be founded in the next 24 months because of this.....
it has given micro credit *official* establishment respectability

In Bangladesh, the best thing Grameen Bank did was to empower women, like women who had been left by their husbands (not divorced, just left on their own). In rural Bangladesh, when women would venture out of their homes to work, to put food on the table for their families, it was looked down upon. That's something Yunus and the Grameen Bank has been able to change in many, many communities. Now women work and earn money for themselves and their families. Even when the average Bangladeshi did not have a phone at home, Yunus brought cellphones to these poor, destitute women who could not even afford two meals a day before Grameen Bank entered their communities. This guy has some seriously innovative ideas.

[mancroft]

He has done a lot of good work over the years.

[Architectonic]

actually it demonstrates how capitalism DOESNT help ppl.
convential banks fail to lend to the destitute since they lack suitable collateral which is ingrained into 99percent of people as a *Necessity*. the fact that Grameen bank utilises social ostracization to ensure that people repay the loans offered to them is evidence of Socialism at work (socialism looks to the inherent good in people as its base fundamental whilst classical economics looks to peoples fundamental greed.

I disagree. In fact I see this as evidence that capitalism does work in the end - there was an overlooked gap in the market and someone plugged it. This is a market based solution for solving poverty - and it seems to be profitable enough to continue.

I think you need to recheck your definition of socialism... Socialism involves a centrally planned economy. The problem with socialism is it rarely (due to the inherent limits on planning) allows for many of the needs of the individual to be met. I don't see the socialists in India providing microcredit to the poor....

Microcredit is a great idea and I do think the prize is well deserved. But remember, nobel prizes tend to be given in hindsight - years after the events, to those who are reasonably well known. The concept of microcredit is not totally unknown. I know someone who started a small microcredit foundation in Indonesia which is now growing due to its success.

[Jasz]

so why not call the thread "Economist wins Nobel Peace Prize"?

[meshou]

so why not call the thread "Economist wins Nobel Peace Prize"?There was a recent thread about how many Jews had won Nobel Prizes compared to how many Moslems.

Really, why the ethnic cock measuring at all? <_<

[Jasz]

There was a recent thread about how many Jews had won Nobel Prizes compared to how many Moslems.

Really, why the ethnic cock measuring at all? <_<

yes, pisses me off

[intpgolfer]

"Socialism at work (socialism looks to the inherent good in people as its base fundamental whilst classical economics looks to peoples fundamental greed."

Socialism - A wonderful idea - full of brotherhood - but it gives too much power to the leaders - and power corrupts absolutely - show me a socialist leader who did not live the good life of a capitalist, or stay in office far too long. But socialism is still a wonderfull idea - with horrible results?

Capitalism - A horrible idea - full of greed - but if competition is allowed to flurish it can work wonders. It's downfall is the restriction of the vital competition by those in power. The USA did a great thing for itself when it restricted the presidency to 8 years - for the USA to survive it must do the same for the Senate and the House. Yet capitalism is still a horrible ideal - but greedy compitition can make it have wonderful results?

The choice, brotherhood which corrupts the leaders, or competition which makes greed play fair?

[Architectonic]

so why not call the thread "Economist wins Nobel Peace Prize"?

Sounds like a great idea. :)

[ApeTheDog]

If he could do all that on 27 dollars, imagine what he will do with the nobel prize money. The worlds troubles are over! Hurray!

...

I wonder if there are some potatoe chips left in my cupboard.

[JBHunt]

If he could do all that on 27 dollars, imagine what he will do with the nobel prize money. The worlds troubles are over! Hurray!

...

I wonder if there are some potatoe chips left in my cupboard.

:lol:

[booyalab]

so why not call the thread "Economist wins Nobel Peace Prize"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobel_Prize


The Nobel Prizes are prizes awarded annually to people (and, in the case of the Peace Prize, to organizations) who have completed outstanding research, invented ground-breaking techniques or equipment, or made an outstanding contribution to society in physics, chemistry, literature, peace, medicine or physiology and economics[1].

that would be like saying "scientist wins nobel peace prize"
big f'ing deal

[Jasz]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobel_Prize



that would be like saying "scientist wins nobel peace prize"
big f'ing deal

the point of interest here is that an economist wins the peace prize, this has nothing to do with the nobel prize for economics, the original labeling of the winner as a muslim seemed irrelevant (apart for meshou's point about an earlier discussion).

[booyalab]

the point of interest here is that an economist wins the peace prize, this has nothing to do with the nobel prize for economics, the original labeling of the winner as a muslim seemed irrelevant (apart for meshou's point about an earlier discussion).

no i think i just demonstrated that the point of interest is not that an economist won the peace prize, since that happens much more frequently than a Muslim winning one.

[ApeTheDog]

Where does it say he is a muslim anyway? I can't see it anywhere in the article.

[Dr. Haight]

Where does it say he is a muslim anyway? I can't see it anywhere in the article.http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=15232

[ApeTheDog]

Yes, but being from bangladesh doesn't automatically equate being a muslim. Not everybody from europe is automatically a christian either.

[Dr. Haight]

Yes, but being from bangladesh doesn't automatically equate being a muslim. Not everybody from europe is automatically a christian either.Ape, the dudes name is Muhammad. That means something, I think. And I will go with your Christian anology if the person in question is named 'Pope.'

[Huston]

Where does it say he is a muslim anyway? I can't see it anywhere in the article.

I can't see it anywhere else on the search engines. The only sources that say he is Muslim are Muslim websites.

[ApeTheDog]

It could mean his parents are muslims. It could also mean his parents just like that name. None of this means anything as for the persons religious status in question. I'm sure there are some people called Jesus who aren't christian either.

I'm not denying it's likely that he is a muslim, but to flat out assume it is just because he comes from an islamic region is wrong. A lot of people don't make the distinction between a muslim and somebody who lives in a country which is predominantly islamitic. It's a widespread form of ignorance.

[Huston]

Ape, the dudes name is Muhammad. That means something, I think.

No it does not. I worked with a guy also named Muhammad, from around that area. He was not Muslim.

[Huston]

I have had many Muslims think I was Jewish because my name is David. Conversely, I have also had other people (Peruvian, Russian, Bosnian [Christian]) think I was Jewish by the way I act.

[Dr. Haight]

It could mean his parents are muslims. It could also mean his parents just like that name. None of this means anything as for the persons religious status in question. Interesting. If I was named Muhammad, or Jesus, and I was neither Muslim nor Christian - respectively - I would definitely change my name, but I guess that's just me. I wonder how many people named Muhammad are not Muslim? I'm guessing it's a low number.

So we still can't add a new Noble prize to the Arab column then.

[Huston]

So we still can't add a new Noble prize to the Arab column then.

Then again, Yunus is not Arab to begin with, so no luck adding a name to the list, unless the list was called, 'People with Arab names'.

[JBHunt]

So we still can't add a new Noble prize to the Arab column then.
Actually, you might need to take one down. Ferid Murad is Albanian.

[ApeTheDog]

We might be able to add a note to the islamic nobel prize winners column - if this guy is a muslim. We just don't know whether he is one right now, as there is nothing in the article that states that he is, and we don't have much else to go by right now. Or, more likely, there is information out there for us to go by, but none of us can be bothered to go look for it.

[Dr. Haight]

Then again, Yunus is not Arab to begin with, so no luck adding a name to the list, unless the list was called, 'People with Arab names'.Actually, it was called, "Arabs vs. Jews; the statistics" in case you are interested: http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=15159

[Stoic]

I disagree. In fact I see this as evidence that capitalism does work in the end - there was an overlooked gap in the market and someone plugged it. This is a market based solution for solving poverty - and it seems to be profitable enough to continue.

I think you need to recheck your definition of socialism... Socialism involves a centrally planned economy. The problem with socialism is it rarely (due to the inherent limits on planning) allows for many of the needs of the individual to be met. I don't see the socialists in India providing microcredit to the poor....

Microcredit is a great idea and I do think the prize is well deserved. But remember, nobel prizes tend to be given in hindsight - years after the events, to those who are reasonably well known. The concept of microcredit is not totally unknown. I know someone who started a small microcredit foundation in Indonesia which is now growing due to its success.

It's not all about centralization. Many socialists favor decentralized collective ownership in the form of cooperatives or workers' councils.

[Huston]

Actually, it was called, "Arabs vs. Jews; the statistics" in case you are interested: http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=15159

I am aware fo the thread, and my remark belongs in there as well, if not more so.

[Dr. Haight]

I am aware fo the thread, and my remark belongs in there as well, if not more so.You're welcome.

[Huston]

Although, the ones on that list are Arab, either mostly of Egyptian or Lebanese descent, although it has been pointed out that Ferid Mourad is Albanian. Then again, I can't find anything on him about his decent, although some point to him being Arab.

[Prolific]

He is not Arab, he is a Bengali Muslim. I know a student who has worked with him. Not all Muslims are Arabs you know, there are even Jewish Muslims. Such as Yousef al Khattab.

Here is a list of some well known Jews who have converted to Islam.
http://www.jews-for-allah.org/Jewish-Converts-to-Islam/

[Dr. Haight]

he is a Bengali Muslim. :banana:

[Huston]

He is not Arab, he is a Bengali Muslim. I know a student who has worked with him.

It has been established that he is not Arab, but he is a practicing Muslim?

[Meliora]

Who the hell cares if he's Muzleem. He done good, so kudos.

[Huston]

Of course it does not matter. He did it for the sake of his country, just like most of the other people on that Arab vs Jew Nobel Prize list in the other thread mentioned did it for some other reason than religion. It just the topic has just focused on a little detail.

[Stoned_Rider]

Interesting. If I was named Muhammad, or Jesus, and I was neither Muslim nor Christian - respectively - I would definitely change my name, but I guess that's just me. I wonder how many people named Muhammad are not Muslim? I'm guessing it's a low number.

So we still can't add a new Noble prize to the Arab column then.

Changing one's name from Muhammad to some other non-Muslim name would practically be suicide in a predominantly Muslim country like Bangladesh. People will NOT take kindly to that. Most ex-Muslims would much rather keep a low profile and stick to their Islamic names (like myself). While Jews or Christians can freely convert to Islam, change their name to something like "Muhammad Ali" and still be able to go about their normal lives, it is quite different in the case of Islam. So for all we know, he could be a closet apostate.

Of course, he is most probably a Muslim anyway. But ApeTheDog's point is still valid.

[Dr. Haight]

Yeah, that makes complete sense. I was thinking about it from an American perspective, which is to say, most non-immigrant Muslims that I have met - or am acquainted with - are either converts, or come from a recently converted lineage.

Oddly, I didn't think of the ostracism that would come with changing from a Muslim name in a semi-dominated, or wholly dominated, Muslim society. Again, from my perspective, I don't automatically equate names with religion, since I have run into Jews with Christians names on more occasions then that of the opposite scenario. However, I do automatically equate the name Muhammad with a religion, which says more about me, than it does about the religion, I suspect. That's what I meant by saying, "interesting" earlier, but did not feel like expanding at that time.

[Architectonic]

It's not all about centralization. Many socialists favor decentralized collective ownership in the form of cooperatives or workers' councils.

That is still centralized, but simply on a lower scale. Of course as you go down in scale, the likelyhood of those collectives being self sufficient decreases..... (and greater duplication of planning....)

Basically the reality of what you are suggesting is a decentralized part socialist part market based system. (Otherwise, all the small collectives would link into a larger collective and you have a large centralized system anyway.)

[charred_heart]

Changing one's name from Muhammad to some other non-Muslim name would practically be suicide in a predominantly Muslim country like Bangladesh. People will NOT take kindly to that. Most ex-Muslims would much rather keep a low profile and stick to their Islamic names (like myself). While Jews or Christians can freely convert to Islam, change their name to something like "Muhammad Ali" and still be able to go about their normal lives, it is quite different in the case of Islam. So for all we know, he could be a closet apostate.

Of course, he is most probably a Muslim anyway. But ApeTheDog's point is still valid.that's bullshit. Bangladesh is not an extremist country.

[charred_heart]

He is not Arab, he is a Bengali Muslim. I know a student who has worked with him. Not all Muslims are Arabs you know, there are even Jewish Muslims. Such as Yousef al Khattab.what a freak

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yousef_al-Khattab

[Stoned_Rider]

that's bullshit. Bangladesh is not an extremist country.
Huh? Where did I say it was an extremist country? (unless of course you equate "predominantly Muslim" with "extremist")

[charred_heart]

Huh? Where did I say it was an extremist country? (unless of course you equate "predominantly Muslim" with "extremist")the whole social suicide thing. The difficulties apostates face in Asia do not go beyond their families. This is actually not surprising since most muslim families are religious.

[Prolific]

It has been established that he is not Arab, but he is a practicing Muslim?

He goes to pray at the mosque. So he must be, I know Muslims who are Muslims but don't go the mosque. I have lived with Muslims all my life.

[Prolific]

Changing one's name from Muhammad to some other non-Muslim name would practically be suicide in a predominantly Muslim country like Bangladesh. People will NOT take kindly to that. Most ex-Muslims would much rather keep a low profile and stick to their Islamic names (like myself). While Jews or Christians can freely convert to Islam, change their name to something like "Muhammad Ali" and still be able to go about their normal lives, it is quite different in the case of Islam. So for all we know, he could be a closet apostate.

Of course, he is most probably a Muslim anyway. But ApeTheDog's point is still valid.

Have you ever thought about getting laid?

[Prolific]

that's bullshit. Bangladesh is not an extremist country.

I agree. I have friends from Bangladesh who are Hindus, and told me great stories about Bangladesh.

[Stoned_Rider]

the whole social suicide thing. The difficulties apostates face in Asia do not go beyond their families. This is actually not surprising since most muslim families are religious.
Dude, if shit like this (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1470584,00.html) is happening in a secular western country like the UK, can you guarantee an apostate's safety from the extremists in his predominantly muslim society if he makes his apostasy public?

My point was, ex-muslims WILL think twice before changing to non-Islamic names, which is why it is very plausible to have a non-Muslim Muhammad. That's all I meant. Don't read too much into it. Just chill!



Have you ever thought about getting laid?
wtf? :confused:

[MacGuffin]

Have you ever thought about getting laid?


wtf? :confused:

Indeed. Perhaps you can explain yourself Prolific.

[charred_heart]

Dude, if shit like this (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1470584,00.html) is happening in a secular western country like the UK, can you guarantee an apostate's safety from the extremists in his predominantly muslim society if he makes his apostasy public? that's the point, muslims in the UK are a minority, and a strange one at that. They are not casual about religion.


My point was, ex-muslims WILL think twice before changing to non-Islamic names, which is why it is very plausible to have a non-Muslim Muhammad. That's all I meant. Don't read too much into it. Just chill!
that is understandable, but you were implying that the reaction among all muslim societies was identical and that it will always be extreme when it's different from one country to the other.

[Stoned_Rider]

that's the point, muslims in the UK are a minority, and a strange one at that. They are not casual about religion.
So you're saying that Muslims are uncharacteristically un-casual about religion in the UK (As opposed to Muslims in Islamic countries). Assuming this is true, it would be interesting to look for the reasons why they are like that. Anyway this is not the thread nor subforum to have such a discussion in.

It is also interesting how you candidly associate persecution of apostates with adherence to religion :ph34r:



that is understandable, but you were implying that the reaction among all muslim societies was identical and that it will always be extreme when it's different from one country to the other.
:rolleyes:

Anyway, speaking of tolerance and indifference in Bangladesh... (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1159193464551&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull)



A Muslim journalist facing charges of sedition for advocating ties with Israel was recently attacked and beaten by a crowd in Bangladesh that allegedly included leading officials of the country's ruling party, The Jerusalem Post has learned.

Salah Uddin Shoaib Choudhury, editor of the Weekly Blitz newspaper, an English-language publication based in the Bangladeshi capital of Dhaka, was working in his office on October 5 when nearly 40 people stormed the premises.

No arrests were made, and police refused to allow Choudhury to file charges against his attackers.

As the Post first reported last month, Bangladesh is moving forward with plans to try Choudhury on charges of blasphemy, sedition, treason and espionage in connection with his articles critical of Islamic extremism and favorable to Israel.

If convicted, Choudhury faces the death penalty.

The charges stem from November 2003, when Choudhury was arrested at Dhaka's International Airport as he was preparing to board a flight on his way to Israel, where he was due to deliver a speech on promoting mutual understanding between Muslims and Jews.

Funny how "promoting mutual understanding between Muslims and Jews" is considered anti-Islamic :whistle:

[Prolific]

wtf? :confused:

Maybe I should not have asked this question, as with your relentless Islam bashing its pretty obvious you haven't thought about getting laid.

[Arioch]

Interesting. If I was named Muhammad, or Jesus, and I was neither Muslim nor Christian - respectively - I would definitely change my name, but I guess that's just me. I wonder how many people named Muhammad are not Muslim? I'm guessing it's a low number.

So we still can't add a new Noble prize to the Arab column then.


I would like to note that there are plenty of Arab Christians, there are plenty of other Arabs in so called "Islamic countries" that are Christian. Many of them are called Mohammad. There is no reason to change your name. Also in the Islamic religion there is no need to change your name to an Arab one, unless your name meant something un-Islamic (for example "Son of Odin").

[Dr. Haight]

I would like to note that there are plenty of Arab Christians, there are plenty of other Arabs in so called "Islamic countries" that are Christian. Many of them are called Mohammad. There is no reason to change your name. Also in the Islamic religion there is no need to change your name to an Arab one, unless your name meant something un-Islamic (for example "Son of Odin").Oh sure, kick me while I'm down... I get it.

By the way, I tried to justify my ignorance with the post after the one you quoted. You may want to go back and read it. :P

[charred_heart]

It is also interesting how you candidly associate persecution of apostates with adherence to religion :ph34r:I was referring to the tensions that occur in a religious family when one of it's members decides to leave the religion. I was not implying it was something positive, I was stating a fact that it is commonplace in muslim societies because muslim families tend to be religious.
Chill.




So you're saying that Muslims are uncharacteristically un-casual about religion in the UK (As opposed to Muslims in Islamic countries). Assuming this is true, it would be interesting to look for the reasons why they are like that. Anyway this is not the thread nor subforum to have such a discussion in.umm yeah. Can you tell me an instance in your family history where someone was beheaded for being an apostate, or stoned to death for committing adultery? I can't, and don't know of any occurrences within my social circle - which is in the ordinary majority. Adultery is an all too common sin in the muslim world, if people were being stoned to death there wouldn't be over 1 billion muslims on the planet - there'd be 10 million or something.






:rolleyes:

Anyway, speaking of tolerance and indifference in Bangladesh... (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1159193464551&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull)


Funny how "promoting mutual understanding between Muslims and Jews" is considered anti-Islamic :whistle:That's political. He'd get the same treatment if he talked about the need for more investigations into corrupt political or military leaders. In fact, you are more likely to get executed in a 3rd world muslim country for speaking against the state than for speaking against Islam.

[Arioch]

Oh sure, kick me while I'm down... I get it.

By the way, I tried to justify my ignorance with the post after the one you quoted. You may want to go back and read it. :P

With this post:


Actually, it was called, "Arabs vs. Jews; the statistics" in case you are interested: http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=15159

*raises an eyebrow* Or perhaps it was the post with the dancing banana in it? Some kind of coded message? In anycase it was too obscure and the point needed to be made. Now, I have already spend far too much time on this idiotic thread then it deserves.

[Stoned_Rider]

Maybe I should not have asked this question, as with your relentless Islam bashing its pretty obvious you haven't thought about getting laid.
I don't quite see the connection between Islam bashing and getting laid.. care to enlighten me?

Anyway, I am pretty much enjoying my anti-Islamic sex life, thank you very much. I don't rape infidel slaves and I certainly do not fuck 9-year-old girls who are still playing with their dolls (you know what I'm talking about).

[charred_heart]

Anyway, I am pretty much enjoying my anti-Islamic sex life, thank you very much. I don't rape infidel slaves...you still want to talk about that? cool, I'll go find that thread.

[Stoned_Rider]

you still want to talk about that? cool, I'll go find that thread.
Heh, you're the one who went all silent in that thread. Bring it on!

[Huston]

I don't quite see the connection between Islam bashing and getting laid.. care to enlighten me?

Thats because he is only capable of committing straw-man on this thread and ad hominem in the other thread.

Oh yeah.. now I know Prolific.. the one Sahara invited over.. imagine what she would think when you say (on the other thread) that she, a Moroccan, is masculine looking.

Hey Rizzy, still think Sunny Leone is a glamour model and not a porn star. Yeah, you stick with your Jatt fantasy and criticize women from other ethnicities.

[Prolific]

I don't quite see the connection between Islam bashing and getting laid.. care to enlighten me?

Anyway, I am pretty much enjoying my anti-Islamic sex life, thank you very much. I don't rape infidel slaves and I certainly do not fuck 9-year-old girls who are still playing with their dolls (you know what I'm talking about).

Maybe if you did get laid then you would stop proliferating alot of crap about Islam. Believe it or not I am an apostate myself. However unlike you, I don't make a big-issue about it, and diss Islam in every other post. Some of the things you say can easily be dismissed.

For instance you talk about "fuck 9 year old girls" you get this information from the hadith, the hadith are generally just garage and Muslims know this, they came 200 - 300 years after the death of Mohamed. Furthermore, there is a internal contradiction in the hadith and also external contradictions which come from other chroniclers of the time.

In other-words, get over Islam. If you don't like it, you don't like it. Seems like you have a some love hate relationship with Islam, you just can't get over it. Which makes me believe the truth of the matter is you hate yourself and are looking for a place to channel your hate. I suggest you try Prozac!

[meshou]

pwntFuck yes.

[Prolific]

Thats because he is only capable of committing straw-man on this thread and ad hominem in the other thread.

Oh yeah.. now I know Prolific.. the one Sahara invited over.. imagine what she would think when you say (on the other thread) that she, a Moroccan, is masculine looking.

Hey Rizzy, still think Sunny Leone is a glamour model and not a porn star. Yeah, you stick with your Jatt fantasy and criticize women from other ethnicities.

I've said most Arab women look like men on many occasions and I am sure she had read this before. And anyway I haven't seen Sahara. So I don't know why she would be upset or anything as such unless of course if she does look like a men in drag which am sure she doesn't.

And can we leave Sunny Leone out of this?

[Huston]

Maybe if you did get laid then you would stop proliferating alot of crap about Islam. Believe it or not I am an apostate myself. However unlike you, I don't make a big-issue about it, and diss Islam in every other post. Some of the things you say can easily be dismissed.

In other-words, get over Islam. If you don't like it, you don't like it. Seems like you have a some love hate relationship with Islam, you just can't get over it. Which makes me believe the truth of the matter is you hate yourself and are looking for a place to channel your hate. I suggest you try Prozac!

Again, what does getting laid have to do about anything. Should I start posting shit about you from Faithfreedom, and how everyone there thinks you need to get laid. And quite frankly you are still a confused little boy still struggling with Islam yourself. Why the dishonesty?


For instance you talk about "fuck 9 year old girls" you get this information from the hadith, the hadith are generally just garage and Muslims know this, they came 200 - 300 years after the death of Mohamed. Furthermore, there is a internal contradiction in the hadith and also external contradictions which come from other chroniclers of the time.

Actually this cannot be dismiss, because almost everything about Islam comes from the Hadiths, like knowing what the five pillars are, or that you should pray five times a day and what those prayers are. The hadiths also cover all of the information on Muhammad without them, there would be no Muhammad. The "other chroniclers" got there information from the various hadiths, and who knows how many have been lost, changed, etc.

You are saying this, because the last time you where Muslim, you were a Quran only Muslim because you couldn't take the shit in the Hadiths.

[Prolific]

Again, what does getting laid have to do about anything. Should I start posting shit about you from Faithfreedom, and how everyone there thinks you need to get laid. And quite frankly you are still a confused little boy still struggling with Islam yourself. Why the dishonesty?

Getting laid has nothing to do with it. It was just a suggestion. Anyway, about ffi what ever, I know some of the members from ffi have been signing up and calming to be me. And I am not confused. Or struggling with Islam, Ive left Islam so I have nothing to struggle with about it. Yes I admit it was hard at first and I did have some problems.

However, I have my own opinions just like everyone else in the world, just because I am an apostate that doesn't mean I should have a negative opinion about Islam. I've never had any real problems with Islam I like much of the teaching of Islam and I have loads of Muslim friends and I like Muslim women.



Actually this cannot be dismiss, because almost everything about Islam comes from the Hadiths.

This is not true, the true authority is the Qu'ran you don't even have to believe in the hadith if you don't want to 100s of Muslims reject many hadith. Auhenticity of the Qur'an is no match with the auhenticity of any hadith. Attempts at branding the Qur'an with hadith terminology is misleading.



like knowing what the five pillars are, or that you should pray five times a day and what those prayers are.

The authentic hadiths will not show you how to do salah completely the way you do it today. There are some hadith that comment on certain aspects of salah, however, not all the details of salah exist even within the entire hadith compilation. According to the Qur'an, Ibraham offered salah at the Kabaa. Salah was not something new with Muhammad and it would have been a familiar concept to the Arabs who heard the Qur'an back then, which was telling them to perform salah to Allah alone. For example, if I tell you to ride a bicycle, I assume you already know how to ride one.


The hadiths also cover all of the information on Muhammad without them, there would be no Muhammad. The "other chroniclers" got there information from the various hadiths, and who knows how many have been lost, changed, etc.

look into a good unbiased Science of Hadith and Hadith history book. An excellent book on this topic is 'A textbook of Hadith Studies' by Muhammad Hashim Kamali. The author is Sunni - however he still provides a fairly unbiased and in-depth approach to hadith studies, and should provide you with sufficient knowledge in this field.


You are saying this, because the last time you where Muslim, you were a Quran only Muslim because you couldn't take the shit in the Hadiths.

Edit*

Furthermore, one needs to accept these verses fully first, that the Qur'an is indeed fully detailed and explained as it says it is, and then question their own judgements to see how it fits around it.

"Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you this Scripture fully detailed ( * )?" Those to whom We have given the Scripture know it is sent down from your Lord with truth; so do not be of those who have doubt. And the word of your Lord has been completed with truth and justice; there is no changing His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower. [Qur'an 6:114-116]

( * ) mufassal = detailed / explained / eleborated

"...We have left nothing out of the book..." [Qur'an 6:38]"

"[This is] a Scripture whose verses are perfected, then set out clearly, from the One who is all wise all aware." [Qur'an 11:1]

"This revelation is no fabrication: it is a confirmation of the truth of what was sent before it; and explenation of everything; a guide and a blessing for those who believe." [Qur'an 12:111]

"We have brought them a Scripture - we have explained it on the basis of true knowledge - as guidance and mercy for those who believe." [Qur'an 7:52]

"He regulates all things, and makes the revelations clear so that you may be certain of meeting your Lord..."[Qur'an 13:2]

A. L. R., these are the signs of the Scripture, and a clear Quran . [Qur’an 15:1]

[charred_heart]

Actually this cannot be dismiss, because almost everything about Islam comes from the Hadiths, like knowing what the five pillars are, or that you should pray five times a day and what those prayers are. The hadiths also cover all of the information on Muhammad without them, there would be no Muhammad. The "other chroniclers" got there information from the various hadiths, and who knows how many have been lost, changed, etc.Muslims base their faith primarily on the Quran. Hadiths are classified in books according to the consistency and credibility of their sources. If a hadith has multiple confllicting versions or was recorded from one source it can be dismissed.

[Huston]

This is not true, the true authority is the Qu'ran you don't even have to believe in the hadith if you don't want to 100s of Muslims reject many hadith. Auhenticity of the Qur'an is no match with the auhenticity of any hadith. Attempts at branding the Qur'an with hadith terminology is misleading.

This ?authenticity? is determined by the bias a person holds. Bukhari and Muslim are called Sahih. This means they are authentic according to the Sunni Muslim sect which represents the majority of Muslims.


The authentic hadiths will not show you how to do salah completely the way you do it today. There are some hadith that comment on certain aspects of salah, however, not all the details of salah exist even within the entire hadith compilation. According to the Qur'an, Ibraham offered salah at the Kabaa. Salah was not something new with Muhammad and it would have been a familiar concept to the Arabs who heard the Qur'an back then, which was telling them to perform salah to Allah alone. For example, if I tell you to ride a bicycle, I assume you already know how to ride one.

Ah so the Quran does not say what the actual prayer is? So why did you mention all of those useless, and obvious fallacious and vacuous verses at the end of your post.


look into a good unbiased Science of Hadith and Hadith history book. An excellent book on this topic is 'A textbook of Hadith Studies' by Muhammad Hashim Kamali. The author is Sunni - however he still provides a fairly unbiased and in-depth approach to hadith studies, and should provide you with sufficient knowledge in this field.

What good is the view point of someone from the 20th century on the musings of 7th-9th century texts? This is just as bad as suggesting one to read Karen Armstrong if you want to learn about Islam.

[Dr. Haight]

This is just as bad as suggesting one to read Karen Armstrong if you want to learn about Islam.:huh:

[Huston]

:huh:

I have been given the "advice" from a Muslim that if I want to learn about Islam I should read Karen Armstrong. Odd.. I thought I would learn about Islm through the Quran, Hadiths, and Sunnah.. hmm. Similar things come from Christians to.. quite annoying really.

[BerberElla]

I've said most Arab women look like men on many occasions and I am sure she had read this before. And anyway I haven't seen Sahara. So I don't know why she would be upset or anything as such unless of course if she does look like a men in drag which am sure she doesn't.

And can we leave Sunny Leone out of this?


Have you been insulting me in my absence prolific?:D

I think insults on 'masculinity' or 'manhood' is hardly your best angle now is it?:rolleyes:

[Prolific]

Have you been insulting me in my absence prolific?:D

I think insults on 'masculinity' or 'manhood' is hardly your best angle now is it?:rolleyes:


I never insulted you here is the comment which he was referring to:
http://www.intpcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=443152&postcount=79

[Stoned_Rider]

Maybe if you did get laid then you would stop proliferating alot of crap about Islam. Believe it or not I am an apostate myself. However unlike you, I don't make a big-issue about it, and diss Islam in every other post.

In other-words, get over Islam. If you don't like it, you don't like it. Seems like you have a some love hate relationship with Islam, you just can't get over it. Which makes me believe the truth of the matter is you hate yourself and are looking for a place to channel your hate. I suggest you try Prozac!

I am not coming up with this "crap about Islam" myself. If quoting directly from the Quran and Hadith along with their Islamic interpretations is considered "dissing" Islam, if highlighting the actions of Muhammad (that come directly from Islamic sources), such as ruthlessly murdering critics of Islam is considered "dissing" Islam, then that speaks volumes about Islam doesn't it!

Besides, there is only one person in the world who can tell me whether I can make a big-issue about it or not, which is myself. This is because only I know how Islam still affects me personally. Only I know how serious of a threat Islam is to my safety and freedom. So, for the third time, I will ask you to shut the fuck up. Do not talk about what you do not know. I will continue to "proliferate" what I believe to be the truth about Islam and anyone is more than welcome for debate.


Some of the things you say can easily be dismissed.
Finally! I thought your ad hominem would go on forever.


For instance you talk about "fuck 9 year old girls" you get this information from the hadith, the hadith are generally just garage and Muslims know this, they came 200 - 300 years after the death of Mohamed. Furthermore, there is a internal contradiction in the hadith and also external contradictions which come from other chroniclers of the time.
We can discuss the validity of Hadiths in the Islam forum. Anyway, the vast majority of Muslims do believe in the Hadith and this is why I will always bring it up. If your main argument against the Hadith is that they were collected 200-300 years after Muhammad's death, then how is the Quran any less "garage" when the earliest copy available today is also dated 200 years after Muhammad's death?

[Dr. Haight]

I have been given the "advice" from a Muslim that if I want to learn about Islam I should read Karen Armstrong. Odd.. I thought I would learn about Islm through the Quran, Hadiths, and Sunnah.. hmm. Similar things come from Christians to.. quite annoying really....but, I love her. :ph34r: