Trouble with defining Enneagram Type.

[Dirty-American-Devil]

I am having troubles trying to define my Enneagram type.
I've taken multiple test, and many different versions.
Unlike the MBTI test, which I always come out as an INTP, with a fairly strong but submissive F, the Enneagram is never consistent in its results.

Depending on the test I take, I'll come out as a type 9, or a 4w5.

I can almost see myself as a Nine, as I don't perfer emotional conflict, as I can deal with about anything anyone feels. However, I'm not a doormat as the Enneagram potrays the nine to be. I am however, very laidback far as what others actions and beliefs are, as long as they don't effect me.

Then I come out as a 4w5, which I can see myself being, however, 4w5 isn't your typical INTP is it? Reading type 4, I can see where I fit in, as long as you put some 5 in it. Like I said previously, I am an INTP, but not nearly robotic as one would think a typical INTP is. I have a strong F, but use T for direction, and perfer to use it because its more black and white, if that makes any sense. Looking at it from this perpective, I can see myself as a 4w5. The problem is, I can't find any official description of a 4w5.

I'm just confused. I've also heard enneagrams in unhealthy conditions can easily be mistaken for another type. I woudn't say I'm in the best mental condition at this paticular point in time.

So..any enlightment?

[Jasz]

I am having troubles trying to define my Enneagram type.
I've taken multiple test, and many different versions.
Unlike the MBTI test, which I always come out as an INTP, with a fairly strong but submissive F, the Enneagram is never consistent in its results.

Depending on the test I take, I'll come out as a type 9, or a 4w5.

I can almost see myself as a Nine, as I don't perfer emotional conflict, as I can deal with about anything anyone feels. However, I'm not a doormat as the Enneagram potrays the nine to be. I am however, very laidback far as what others actions and beliefs are, as long as they don't effect me.

Then I come out as a 4w5, which I can see myself being, however, 4w5 isn't your typical INTP is it? Reading type 4, I can see where I fit in, as long as you put some 5 in it. Like I said previously, I am an INTP, but not nearly robotic as one would think a typical INTP is. I have a strong F, but use T for direction, and perfer to use it because its more black and white, if that makes any sense. Looking at it from this perpective, I can see myself as a 4w5. The problem is, I can't find any official description of a 4w5.

I'm just confused. I've also heard enneagrams in unhealthy conditions can easily be mistaken for another type. I woudn't say I'm in the best mental condition at this paticular point in time.

So..any enlightment?

this site was a real eye-opener for me:
http://www.9types.com/epd/7.html

[Dirty-American-Devil]

Thanks for the link, I'll check it out. To add another point, I do know for a fact I am sp/sx/so in that order, regardless of the interger type

[Jasz]

Thanks for the link, I'll check it out. To add another point, I do know for a fact I am sp/so/sx in that order, regardless of the interger type

i have tendencies of both 7 and 5 and the wings don't make any sense at all. but when looking at the core motivators (for which the site provides some handy graphs), I am clearly a 7. i am also very clear sx. waxwing provided a nice link to a site with details on "type stacking". i would be a sx/sp per that site, which in a way also resolves my difficulty with assessing whether i am a 7 or a 5. in conclusion, i would be a 7sx/sp.

http://www.ocean-moonshine.net/e142857369/

[Dirty-American-Devil]

That last link helped a lot there, definatly a 4, just less, well crazy, which is where the w5 comes into play I suppose.

[Jennywocky]

That last link helped a lot there, definatly a 4, just less, well crazy, which is where the w5 comes into play I suppose.

As far as the Nine and 4w5 results go, that's not an inconsistent result internally to the Ennegram. From what I can tell, INFPs often fit the 4, 4w5, or some version of 9.... and I think some INTPs classify themselves as 9 as well as 5.

It depends on the specific personality and the environment in which they were raised, I think -- pushing them in certain directions.

I've found both of the sites that Jasz mentioned to be helpful.

[Jasz]

we also had an interesting discussion about the instincts before:
http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=11225

[meshou]

That last link helped a lot there, definatly a 4, just less, well crazy, which is where the w5 comes into play I suppose.<_<

The enneagram is pretty much defined by HOW you go crazy, and what makes you better. Fours are no more insane and self destructive than fives. They just go about it in different ways.

Fours get clingy, looking for someone to rescue them from their shame, then, when it becomes clear no one can save them from their own "incompetence," moody and detatched, pushing away past relationships. Finally they become tortured by delusional self hatred and possibly suicidal.

Fives become further and further detatched from reality, absuively pushing away anyone who'd remind them of it, finally rejecting the value of other people's reality all together. Isolated, they become and convinced to the point of delusion that their unrealistic phobias have come to pass, and so will become self-destructive. They aren't as prone to suicide as they are toward mesy self torture.

The w5 is a stabilizing force on emotionality, perhaps, but mental health is another factor entirely.

[Dirty-American-Devil]

Yes, thats what gets me about the 4w5.
If its correct, and I believe it to be, I am an INTP. Like I stated previously, although I am an INTP, I feel as if my F is stronger then your typical INTP.
I suppose thats how I could explain being an 4w5, as most 4w5 test out to be INFP's from what I have seen and read. The only thing about 4w5 is I don't look for a rescuer, though I do look for someone who understands my grief, logic, and view points. I suppose thats where the SP comes into play, being independent in nature, and wishing to be self-sufficient in more then one way in life.

Really, its quite amazing, being narrastic (sp?) as I am, I actually thought about wrighting an essay describing my personality, beliefs, and such by using the MBTI (INTP) and Enneagram (4w5), and showing how the two relate, because although the two descriptions share little similiarities, I believe people are complex enough to have both as acceptable ways to describe oneself. The thing is though, I've thought about, and doubt I'll ever finish it.

[Jennywocky]

The enneagram is pretty much defined by HOW you go crazy, and what makes you better. Fours are no more insane and self destructive than fives. They just go about it in different ways.

Heh, I love it!

Did you ever look over Riso's list of probable personality orders and addictions for each type? That was a hoot too. And there's some truth to it.


Yes, thats what gets me about the 4w5.
If its correct, and I believe it to be, I am an INTP. Like I stated previously, although I am an INTP, I feel as if my F is stronger then your typical INTP.
I suppose thats how I could explain being an 4w5, as most 4w5 test out to be INFP's from what I have seen and read. The only thing about 4w5 is I don't look for a rescuer, though I do look for someone who understands my grief, logic, and view points. I suppose thats where the SP comes into play, being independent in nature, and wishing to be self-sufficient in more then one way in life.

How did you test to be 4w5? How close were your Four and Five scores? There's a chance the test itself was simply inadequate to 'bump you' into 5w4.

I think background plays a large role in how type develops. (I.e., certain childhood events and environment can accentuate or smoosh natural type).

While I am extremely independent and solitary, when it comes to relationships I was very very passive as a young adult and DID in fact expect people to approach me first (i.e., rescue me from my loneliness). However, this was a passivity issue, not a T/F issue, even though it masquerades as a Four trait. When other people did not initiate, i felt helpless and powerless to do anything... even while I inwardly despised my own impotence and hated that dependency.



Really, its quite amazing, being narrastic (sp?) as I am, I actually thought about wrighting an essay describing my personality, beliefs, and such by using the MBTI (INTP) and Enneagram (4w5), and showing how the two relate, because although the two descriptions share little similiarities, I believe people are complex enough to have both as acceptable ways to describe oneself. The thing is though, I've thought about, and doubt I'll ever finish it.

There's an INxP trait for you. :)

I go through that a lot. I've got zillions of partially finished "ideas," with the motivation having dissipated to continue (or my feeling unsure enough about the idea's validity to even know how to finish it).

My personal opinion is that INTP and Four operate off different foundations (one is Thinking, the other is Feeling), and even if you have a strong mix of the two, one still predominates... and the difference between the foundations makes the two types very different as well, and not really reconcilable.

(My 4w5 friend and me, as a 5w4, have wonderful conversations and feel very close sometimes... but when we get off the topic of new and wild ideas and into practical living, decision making, behavior, etc., the differences become INSANELY apparent. I was shocked the first time I got a glimpse of her from the outside-in as she dealt with her family and daily responsibilities...)

I don't mean to shoot you in the foot, that's simply my personal opinion. If you have some good reasons why you think otherwise, I'd love to see them so I can twiddle with my ideas.

[Dirty-American-Devil]

How did you test to be 4w5? How close were your Four and Five scores? There's a chance the test itself was simply inadequate to 'bump you' into 5w4.

I think background plays a large role in how type develops. (I.e., certain childhood events and environment can accentuate or smoosh natural type).

While I am extremely independent and solitary, when it comes to relationships I was very very passive as a young adult and DID in fact expect people to approach me first (i.e., rescue me from my loneliness). However, this was a passivity issue, not a T/F issue, even though it masquerades as a Four trait. When other people did not initiate, i felt helpless and powerless to do anything... even while I inwardly despised my own impotence and hated that dependency.


I scored negatives on everything but 4, 5, and 9. Nine I believe I got one point, The 4 was one point higher then a 5.

Romanitically, I am the same way, I am very passive. I have never intiated a romatically charged relationship, and never had to really. Mainly, because I am passive. I don't want to bother with the chase or games, I'll leave that to the girls who want me. I don't get upset or anything if no one does approach me though. But in my opinion, it is there job to approach me, I'm just as happy single as if I had an SO.




There's an INxP trait for you.

I go through that a lot. I've got zillions of partially finished "ideas," with the motivation having dissipated to continue (or my feeling unsure enough about the idea's validity to even know how to finish it).

My personal opinion is that INTP and Four operate off different foundations (one is Thinking, the other is Feeling), and even if you have a strong mix of the two, one still predominates... and the difference between the foundations makes the two types very different as well, and not really reconcilable.

Could be an INxP, but I really don't believe so. They do operate in different foundations of F and T, but that doesn't really make them not 'match'. I have my morales and feelings, and I know what they are, but I'm not the type to go around using those feelings as a guide. I don't act or do things because it feels right. I don't express myself because I don't want to waste time, or energy in doing so, not because I'm afraid of what others say.

Hell, maybe I am an 5w4, I get told often that I'm cold hearted, and I need to once, just once, stop thinking, and just 'go with the flow', follow my heart. I just don't like the idea of being a stereotype robot guy.

[Jasz]

I just don't like the idea of being a stereotype robot guy.

do you mean with regard to "following your heart" or with being a certain type?

[Jennywocky]

I don't want to bother with the chase or games, I'll leave that to the girls who want me. I don't get upset or anything if no one does approach me though. But in my opinion, it is there job to approach me, I'm just as happy single as if I had an SO.

As you mention later, that's generally more of a Five/INTP trait -- if you had an average INTP and INFP standing next to each other. (Childhood experiences can twist that a bit, though.)


They do operate in different foundations of F and T, but that doesn't really make them not 'match'. I have my morales and feelings, and I know what they are, but I'm not the type to go around using those feelings as a guide. I don't act or do things because it feels right. I don't express myself because I don't want to waste time, or energy in doing so, not because I'm afraid of what others say.

Again, generally more INTP than INFP.

I'm solidly INTP, but I realized that I have a strong idealistic sense that I usually suppress expressing or acting on out of "logical thinking." Generally, my sense of "autonomy for everyone" leads me to Prime-Directive type thinking, where I really believe in something but do not want to interfere or override someone else. So I think the two feelings can coexist.

I think an INFP is prone to acting on the values, even though they do not want to "violate" others. It's not even really a violation, the act of thinking one's way around having to act on one's values would be the violation for them.


Hell, maybe I am an 5w4, I get told often that I'm cold hearted, and I need to once, just once, stop thinking, and just 'go with the flow', follow my heart. I just don't like the idea of being a stereotype robot guy.

Well, regardless, you don't need to be a robot nor conform to type. It's a system that can describe and guide, but if you find yourself changing things just to fit your type, then that's not good.

For me as an INTP, I have felt "cold" sometimes -- I want to act in a way that is more emotionally affirming and am disappointed with myself that I just... can't. It's not real, if I do, and I feel like I have lost integrity afterwards. Once I get the logical thought anchored in my head (i.e., the concept makes sense), I can't violate it without constant guilt and feelings of lack of integrity. Once I realize a truth, it's a truth and can't be overriden.

The same thing happens if I try to emote just to make someone feel better -- I feel like I violated my principles, and I should have been more honest in the situation.

[FranG]

I haven't taken the complete test yet (The quick test has me as a 5). Right now, I'm just reading the book ("The Wisdom of the Enneagram"). From what I can gather so far (and I haven't gotten very far in my reading yet) is that the Enneagram is vastly more comoplicated than MBTI. That's probably a good think considering the complexity of human beings. Also, the test is computerized so if it yields differing scoring results after testing, it means that your answers are not consistent with each testing. And because it has so many more dimensions than MBTI, the chances of yielding a different test increases drastically.

[AMDG]

I have great difficulty with this too. Whenever I take a test, I come out with virtually no points in any of the types, except a shitload in 5 and 8, usually only a small margin between them. Sometimes more in 5, sometimes more in 8, depending how 'up' I'm feeling when I take the test.

I can't take a full test, because I don't have a credit card (can't get one cos Experian and Equifax hate me for having no stake in the rat race), and there's nowhere locally where I can take one.

[Monochrome]

You could read a book about the Enneagram types and see which one fits you best. I've recently read Riso's "Personality Types. Using the Enneagram for Self-discovery." Quite good and comprehensive. I tested as 5, next was 4, so I thought I'd be 5w4, but reading the book helped to clarify that issue. It turned out I don't really have a wing, but I'm more of a basic type.
Also, if you're not sure if you're 5 or 8, the bok gives you descriptions of how each type behaves when it disintegrates (sort of, loses its sanity) and that is the most obvious differentiating factor (5s go to 7, 8s go to 5).

[Jennywocky]

I have great difficulty with this too. Whenever I take a test, I come out with virtually no points in any of the types, except a shitload in 5 and 8, usually only a small margin between them. Sometimes more in 5, sometimes more in 8, depending how 'up' I'm feeling when I take the test.

I can't take a full test, because I don't have a credit card (can't get one cos Experian and Equifax hate me for having no stake in the rat race), and there's nowhere locally where I can take one.

That's funny that you come out high in Eight. Usually Fives have to integrate to Eight. Based on other conversations we've had, I'm wondering how much your life path has influenced your assertiveness quotient... I wouldn't be surprised if that has had a major impact.

Yes, the Riso books offer a test, usually. If you really want to take it online, maybe someone will spot you a few bucks, or some other arrangement.

[AMDG]

You could read a book about the Enneagram types and see which one fits you best. I've recently read Riso's "Personality Types. Using the Enneagram for Self-discovery." Quite good and comprehensive. I tested as 5, next was 4, so I thought I'd be 5w4, but reading the book helped to clarify that issue. It turned out I don't really have a wing, but I'm more of a basic type.
Also, if you're not sure if you're 5 or 8, the bok gives you descriptions of how each type behaves when it disintegrates (sort of, loses its sanity) and that is the most obvious differentiating factor (5s go to 7, 8s go to 5).

Yeah I've done that, and I still can't decide... it depends on so many things. Fortunato might have a point there about how my life path has forced me to learn assertiveness and confidence in my judgement and abilities that might otherwise not have naturally come to me if I'd had a more peaceful existence!

Sometimes I think I'm an 8 that has some five-ish qualities; other times I think I'm the other way around. It all depends on externals.

[Slider]

tests are, at best, insufficient, and at worst, bollocks.

you describe yourself as laidback, chill, etc . . . but then go on to say that you think too much and people tell you to go with the flow more often. so . . . which is it? is it situational? which is more natural (not which do you like better)? what causes you to suspend chill behavior?





"It all depends on externals."

it doesn't depend on many things. and saying it depends on externals seems anti-fivish. it depends on you, and you alone. reactions are not your type. they are a manifestation of your type. and no, you haven't accidentally integrated to eight, lol.

your writing is anti-eightish. you use phrases like "can't decide" "depends" "might have a point". eights do not have to learn assertiveness or even aggressiveness. their entire way of living is assertive. it's not a one-off action, it's a way of being. it is the antithesis of passiveness. and they aren't indecisive -- they see that as being weak.

also, eights always know they are eights -- I haven't found this statement to be wrong in any of my observations. fives can sometimes be unsure of their type if they have a six wing, and/or a close T/F scale.

[Eileen]

I've never seen a good enneagram test. What really cleared things up for me (I'm 4w5) was learning about the integration and disintegration points. I recognize my 'under stress' mode as being the clingy, dependent, overly helpful and intrusive 2, while my best self aspires to the perfection, order, and principle of the 1.