911 evidence

[demagogic_schizoid]

According to certain theorists, the official account of events on 911 is impossible. They claim that the official explanation is that the Twin Towers were destroyed by fire, but that this is impossible because steel structures cannot be destroyed by fire, and that the highest temperature which hydro-carbonates can reach in air is 1800 degrees, which can only occur in highly controlled atmospheric conditions, such as in a stove (or was it a grill, not that it matters), which does not melt. They also claim that no building in history has collapsed like the Twin Towers did because of fire, and that the only way to acheive this would be an implosion. They claim that small explosions can be seen occuring below the chain of collapse when observing the video.

They also claim that there was only one place which could have caught the crashing of a plane into a Pentagon, and that this service station had its CCTV confiscated within minuted by the FBI which has never released footage. They also claim that the hole in the Pentagon was not large enough considering the size of the plane which supposedly hit it. On top of this they don't think you could fly a plane of that size at such speed so low to the ground.

More evidence is that nobody could find the WTC or the Pentagon without help from air traffic control. Another point is that the wreckage from the WTC was cleared away by May without being examined, which is actually illegal because the wreckage from the collapse of major structures should be examined to prevent it happening again.

There is loads more which I am too lazy to write about, and I don't understand anything about architecture or planes anyway, so basically, to anyone who knows about these things: what is the strength of the cases both sides make?

[MacGuffin]

Goddammit not this again.

[demagogic_schizoid]

link? I've done a search and the first page is just full on unrelated posts.

[MacGuffin]

link? I've done a search and the first page is just full on unrelated posts.
9/11: structural failure and conspiracy theories (http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=9683)

[david2341.]

the building fell like a pancake
thermite was likely used which vaporized the steel
there is a vid clip about firefighters hearing dozens of detonations going off
wtc rubble was shipped off to hong kong or china

if the tower were to collapse, only the top portion would of fell

the building was likely imploded from the top down floor by floor

wtc building was made to be destroyed in order to begin war

[Carebear]

I recently saw this 1h 30m film on google video arguing that the towers were demolished. Though I generally am suspicious, and though the movie was extreeemely boring and biased most of the time, it still left me with some questions I'm not able to dismiss.

Anyone seen it? Any comments?

The movie "9/11 Mysteries" is found at http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6708190071483512003 if anyone bothers to see it.

[mancroft]

Total bollocks!

[LongSilence]

If we hadn't gone and fucked up in Iraq how many less people would believe this conspiracy stuff?

[demagogic_schizoid]

Total bollocks!

But WHY? I am assuming that you know a bit about architecture and science here, so please try and realise that some people (like me) are completely clueless about such things and are liable to believe total bollocks unless someone deconstructs it. Even if it's just one of their points, to discredit the argument.

[demagogic_schizoid]

9/11: structural failure and conspiracy theories (http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=9683)

ok thanks.

[Carebear]

Total bollocks!

Have you actually seen the "documentary" or read the arguments against fire being the cause of the collapse?

If so, got any answer why WTC7 collapsed? If not, what did you base that statement on?

[david2341.]

let me look for the vid clip about the firefighters hearing improvised implosions

look at this vid clip for now
sniper in iraq
http://judicial-inc.biz/Israelis_In_Iraq.htm

the 2 planes that hit the towers were in the air for a whole 45 mins with their transponders turned off
while fighter jets were only 10 mins or so away

air traffic controllers and other personnel were told it was a drill

[MacGuffin]

*begins Idiot List*

[LongSilence]

How did the sizeable amount of demolition explosives get there in the firstplace? Planted a week or so before? Built into the structure? Either way, who the hell did it and how did they manage such a fucking good cover-up operation afterwards? Either the American Government has in its employ an evil corporation of regular architects, planners, builders and inspectors with absolutely no conscience or its done a damn good job silencing all the people involved...

[david2341.]

larry silverstein, the owner of building 7 gave permission ... he said on npr radio

explosives placed into the concrete columns well in advance

[demagogic_schizoid]

How did the sizeable amount of demolition explosives get there in the firstplace? Planted a week or so before? Built into the structure? Either way, who the hell did it and how did they manage such a fucking good cover-up operation afterwards? Either the American Government has in its employ an evil corporation of regular architects, planners, builders and inspectors with absolutely no conscience or its done a damn good job silencing all the people involved...

But what about the scientific evidence refuting the claims made by the conspiracy theorists? Anything else is just speculation.

BTW I'm on p.4 of that thread MacGuffin posted and haven't found any support for the official account of events from a scientific basis.

[LongSilence]

Surely people have to present and back up a reasonable alternative otherwise we just end up saying- We know planes crashed into the Twin Towers and then a few hours later they fell down. We're not sure why.

[demagogic_schizoid]

Surely people have to present and back up a reasonable alternative otherwise we just end up saying- We know planes crashed into the Twin Towers and then a few hours later they fell down. We're not sure why.

There is an alternative, the one set out in my original post, the one carebear links to (I watched that video this is what prompted this post).

I don't know if it's reasonable or not, but in 2 pages here and in 6 pages of the post MacGuffin linked to nobody debunked the conspiracy theory. I assume some people on here must know enough about science to be able to evaluate these arguments, so I wonder if maybe there really is something in them.

[mancroft]

But WHY? I am assuming that you know a bit about architecture and science here, so please try and realise that some people (like me) are completely clueless about such things and are liable to believe total bollocks unless someone deconstructs it. Even if it's just one of their points, to discredit the argument.

Do you honestly suppose that the Bush administration would be competent enough to organise something like this AND keep it quiet?

It is called common sense.

A building constructed in the 1970s to supposedly withstand a hit from an airliner of the time (or so the designers said) gets hit 30 years later by an airliner that was much bigger than originally designed for.

Come on, do me a favour. No building could withstand that.

And as for the Pentagon crash, most of the plane disintegrated and the hole was was of a size that you would expect.

[Carebear]

How did the sizeable amount of demolition explosives get there in the firstplace? Planted a week or so before? Built into the structure? Either way, who the hell did it and how did they manage such a fucking good cover-up operation afterwards? Either the American Government has in its employ an evil corporation of regular architects, planners, builders and inspectors with absolutely no conscience or its done a damn good job silencing all the people involved...

The video answers that one. Construction work some time before on empty, locked off floors. Then a rather hastily announced powerdown for most of the weekend before Mon 9/11, due to electicity maintenance or something. People report loads of wires being drawn in (natural if it wasn't a conspiracy too, ofc) and since the security cameras were shut off, no surveilance material exist.

I'm still not saying I believe it was a major conspiracy, but as Ricky Gervais above says: Where are the scientific refutations. WTC 7 wasn't hit by the planes, only small fires were reported, and still they fell in a fashion very similar to a demolition.

[Carebear]

Do you honestly suppose that the Bush administration would be competent enough to organise something like this AND keep it quiet?

It is called common sense.

A building constructed in the 1970s to supposedly withstand a hit from an airliner of the time (or so the designers said) gets hit 30 years later by an airliner that was much bigger than originally designed for.

Come on, do me a favour. No building could withstand that.

And as for the Pentagon crash, most of the plane disintegrated and the hole was was of a size that you would expect.

The question isn't if we believe others to be capable. The question is: Why are those arguments used instead of scientific refutal?

And I repeat: WTC 7 wasn't hit by a plane.

[MacGuffin]

There is an alternative, the one set out in my original post, the one carebear links to (I watched that video this is what prompted this post).

I don't know if it's reasonable or not, but in 2 pages here and in 6 pages of the post MacGuffin linked to nobody debunked the conspiracy theory. I assume some people on here must know enough about science to be able to evaluate these arguments, so I wonder if maybe there really is something in them.

Debunking The 9/11 Myths - Mar. 2005 Cover Story (Popular Mechanics) (http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html?page=1)


larry silverstein, the owner of building 7 gave permission ... he said on npr radio

explosives placed into the concrete columns well in advance
How many fuckin' usernames do you need?

[david2341.]

30 years ago ... they knew peak oil was to result ... so wtc, as an american icon, was built to be destroyed to begin war for control of the middle east (?)

[demagogic_schizoid]

Do you honestly suppose that the Bush administration would be competent enough to organise something like this AND keep it quiet?

I don't honestly know, and neither do you, unless you have detailed experience of years working at the elite level of government.




A building constructed in the 1970s to supposedly withstand a hit from an airliner of the time (or so the designers said) gets hit 30 years later by an airliner that was much bigger than originally designed for.

Come on, do me a favour. No building could withstand that.

But yet, people are claiming that the building should not have collapsed and are providing scientific evidence for it, and backing it up with real life example (see the posts on Caracas fire etc. in the link you posted)


And as for the Pentagon crash, most of the plane disintegrated and the hole was was of a size that you would expect.

Is this the official version of events? I don't know...is there a link explaining exactly how this happened? And why was the CCTV footage taken away?

Also, how about the argument that anyone flying a plane would need help from air traffic control to find their destination? That seems quite convincing, otherwise what is the need for ATC? Surely all the hijackers wpuld have seen from the cockipit would be cloud?

Again, a lot of questions, but nobody seems to be answering them.

[htb]

I was just going to link that. Helpfully, here's (http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html?page=5) the specific page for the, er, "refutal" of the WTC 7 collapse.

Reason help us.

Edit:
I don't honestly know, and neither do you, unless you have detailed experience of years working at the elite level of government.That's proving a negative. Criminal conspiracies are difficult to keep together if members number a dozen or so.

[Carebear]

Thanks for the links, Mac and htb. Reading them now.

[david2341.]

bush admin answers to other countries

[MacGuffin]

bush admin answers to other powers
This admin is still waiting for an answer.

[htb]

bush admin answers to other powersWould you people stop if Fox brought X-Files back, so play-acting fan fiction was no longer necessary? I'll write a letter myself.

[david2341.]

you already know israel gots a whole lot of enemies in the middle east ... they cant take conquer it by themselves

yea ... why dont you write a letter yourself to the bush admin ... haha

whether im not entirely accurate ... this entire thread should be meant only to be informative

[MacGuffin]

you already know israel gots a whole lot of enemies in the middle east ... they cant take conquer it by themselves

yea ... why dont you write a letter yourself to the bush admin ... haha

whether im not entirely accurate ... this entire thread should be meant only to be informative
BZZT!

Wrong answer.

Usernames merged.

[Prozac]

Total bollocks!


.. you people baffle me

... the illuminati rules all whether you or anyone else likes it or not

.. i'll just kick back and nibble on my fingertips in a valiant attempt to prevent my beautiful claws from emerging


.. yea some bearded dude has the power and weaponry to scare all nations into submission, attacks are deadly and imminent, all because they are jealous of freedoms that we all enjoy.. better run and hide **shivers**

.. puppets with no batteries, windup manniquins with downloadable firmwares

come one, come all


... and watch the show -- carry on

xxx

[david2341.]

firemen describe the collapse
http://www.stargods.org/DemolitionProofOf_9_11.htm

[Pescaphile]

. . . this is impossible because steel structures cannot be destroyed by fire . . .

This is absolute balderdash! Steel does not have to melt to fail from being subjected to fire. Look up how steel's yield strength changes as a function of temperature. As temperature increases, the stress at which a steel will deform in an inelastic (plastic) fashion decreases. It simply can no longer support its normal service loads when it gets too hot.

Have you ever noticed sprayed-on insulation on an exposed beam or girder in a reinforced concrete building? That insulation is fire protection. Why would one need fire protection on a non-flammable material like concrete you ask? It's to protect the reinforcing STEEL inside the concrete!

Indeed, timber structures are considered to have better structural performance than steel structures in a fire. Even though wood is flammable, it doesn't lose strength due to temperature but instead through material being burned away reducing the size of the members - a slower process. The lower strength:size ratio of timber make in impracticable to use for the construction of tall buildings.

[MacGuffin]

{scientific gobbledygook}
:wtf:

That was nothing but science?!?!! Is your aura out of alignment?

[Carebear]

Still not convinced about the WTC 7 colllapse, but that link answered a lot of my questions. Guess I'll have to wait for the final report on WTC 7 before I'm convinced about that one.

Some of the questions raised in the video weren't addressed either by the way. But I guess they eventually will. (Unless something fishy did happen, in which case that'll be addressed.)

I'm content for now.

[Spartan26]

*begins Idiot List*


The question isn't if we believe others to be capable. The question is: Why are those arguments used instead of scientific refutal?

And I repeat: WTC 7 wasn't hit by a plane.
I don't want to get into the whole conspiracy thing but I don't know if this comment qualifies me as an idiot but the one thing that always races through my mind when people mention the falling towers that "shouldn't have gone down that way, (if at all)" 1). The contractor lied about the safety/structure/materials used. 2) The manufacturer(s) lied about their products durability/quality. 3) 40 years of heavy, continuous use, left outside, pressure from people inside and earth moving/shifting below. Warranty ran out a long time ago.

Again, I'm not saying that that's THE explanation but I'm more and more amazed that people continue to buy whatever shit marketing and R&D peddles us.

[demagogic_schizoid]

This is absolute balderdash! Steel does not have to melt to fail from being subjected to fire. Look up how steel's yield strength changes as a function of temperature. As temperature increases, the stress at which a steel will deform in an inelastic (plastic) fashion decreases. It simply can no longer support its normal service loads when it gets too hot.

Have you ever noticed sprayed-on insulation on an exposed beam or girder in a reinforced concrete building? That insulation is fire protection. Why would one need fire protection on a non-flammable material like concrete you ask? It's to protect the reinforcing STEEL inside the concrete!

Indeed, timber structures are considered to have better structural performance than steel structures in a fire. Even though wood is flammable, it doesn't lose strength due to temperature but instead through material being burned away reducing the size of the members - a slower process. The lower strength:size ratio of timber make in impracticable to use for the construction of tall buildings.

Thanks, that was informative, as was the link from MacGuffin. It's good to hear both sides of the story.

[Helios]

my aunt and uncle live in a brownstone just across from Downtown in the Heights. On that Tuesday everyone was watching the fires burn in the Towers, etc,etc. One of their neighbors was an engineer, very smart according to them. He did some quick math and told them all that the Towers would collapse in X mintues. No one there believed him! As it turned out the man was with in minutes of being a prophet. If now, it was plausible enough for this guy to foresee it I can't buy into this conspiracy stuff.

[charred_heart]

This is absolute balderdash! Steel does not have to melt to fail from being subjected to fire. Look up how steel's yield strength changes as a function of temperature. As temperature increases, the stress at which a steel will deform in an inelastic (plastic) fashion decreases. It simply can no longer support its normal service loads when it gets too hot.

Have you ever noticed sprayed-on insulation on an exposed beam or girder in a reinforced concrete building? That insulation is fire protection. Why would one need fire protection on a non-flammable material like concrete you ask? It's to protect the reinforcing STEEL inside the concrete!

Indeed, timber structures are considered to have better structural performance than steel structures in a fire. Even though wood is flammable, it doesn't lose strength due to temperature but instead through material being burned away reducing the size of the members - a slower process. The lower strength:size ratio of timber make in impracticable to use for the construction of tall buildings.good answer. Whatever was said about the building was PR talk, like everything else that costs a lot of money and needs investors or partners.

[demagogic_schizoid]

my aunt and uncle live in a brownstone just across from Downtown in the Heights. On that Tuesday everyone was watching the fires burn in the Towers, etc,etc. One of their neighbors was an engineer, very smart according to them. He did some quick math and told them all that the Towers would collapse in X mintues. No one there believed him! As it turned out the man was with in minutes of being a prophet. If now, it was plausible enough for this guy to foresee it I can't buy into this conspiracy stuff.

Interesting, I will keep this in mind

<Adds Helios to list of suspected CIA stooges>

[omnirook]

What happened on 9/11 was - a pinprick - whoever was behind it, however it happened.

Yes, yes, nearly 3,000 people died - and that was a tragedy. However, it is possible to feel for the victims and do for them w/o over-reacting in other directions - which was exactly what happened. The United States acted hysterically, and the Bush mis-Administration took that as a green light to go ahead w/its fascist, "neo-con" agenda.

For the United States to do what was done in response to 9/11 smacks of the worst incompetence, the worst corruption, a complete failure on the part of the nation's leadership to act responsibly - and having acted responsibly would have strengthened the nation's international standing. Instead, the United States is all but a world-wide pariah.

When we went after bin Laden, even the Arab world voiced support. Even Iran sent official condolences to the United States after the Trade Towers fell! But Bush pissed all that away. He was going to put on his ten gallon hat and play John Wayne, and nobody was going to stop him! And the Congress went along w/him. And we went along w/the Congress when we failed to register displeasure at the polls. That lousy $400 tax rebate bought a lot of silence!

So, now we live in a bankrupt police state, where the Bill of Rights is toilet paper. Our government is in so much debt that it will take generations to pay it off - if it ever gets paid off. The President of the United States is a lap dog for the President of China, and India is in place (due to the huge loans it made to us that we cannot pay back) to keep demanding that we send our jobs to India and allow more and more Indians to move to the United States w/pre-stamped visas, qualifying them for top jobs in corporate America.

I am ashamed of my country. A quick, surgical removal of bin Laden and his supporters would have shown that we are not to be fucked with. Instead, the mess that 9/11 has created for this country is more than bin Laden could ever have hoped for - if America had grown up, if America had become a responsible member of the world community, if America had gotten past its own bullshit, Old West, tough-guy mythology. These were stupid mistakes that the world's next superpower (China) would never make.

[Dunearhp]

I read an article in an engineering periodical in October/November 2001. The WTC was a distributed steel mesh structure rather than a central core structure. The fire caused widespread weakening of the joins of the mesh across several floors.

Jet fuel was never really considered as a danger prior to this. No steel framed skyscraper of the time had adequate insulation to cope with that amount of jet fuel and not require demolition or extensive superstructure repair afterward.

Engineers would have been scratching their heads if they hadn't fallen down.

[demagogic_schizoid]

I read an article in an engineering periodical in October/November 2001. The WTC was a distributed steel mesh structure rather than a central core structure. The fire caused widespread weakening of the joins of the mesh across several floors.

Jet fuel was never really considered as a danger prior to this. No steel framed skyscraper of the time had adequate insulation to cope with that amount of jet fuel and not require demolition or extensive superstructure repair afterward.

Engineers would have been scratching their heads if they hadn't fallen down.

Good, that's the sort of thing I am looking for. I might put this to one of the people who put forward other theories, and see what they say. If I do, I will post the response here.

[NoahFence]

There was no thermite, the secondary explosions were absolutely normal results of the shape of the building and compression from above floors falling. You don't have to melt the steel, it gets softer for every degree it rises, and as soon as one support can't bear the load, it bends, becomes even less able to bear the load, other supports now get a greater load, bend, and the whole stack of cards comes down.

If there's a conspiracy, it's Pearl Harbor style, where they knew it was going to happen and allowed it, predicting its effect on public opinion would grant them Palpatine-like control over the military.

Want a conspiracy theory? Osama used to work for the CIA and still does. Whenever the opinion polls drop into the danger zone, Osama arranges some vastly complicated doomed-to-failure scheme to be busted up. This is why Al Qaeda has been waging the least effective terror campaign in all of fucking history. Look at the IRA for an effective campaign. They didn't bomb things with massive elaborate schemes to simultaneously take out huge landmarks...they bombed random busses and stores, so that every single time you set foot outside, you felt the terror that it could be your bus, or your store.

Just why has Al Qaeda been unable to strike within the US? Maybe you can't get a flight into JFK from Pakistan, but I bet you damn good money you could get into San Salvador, rent a truck, and hop the fence in El Paso for about as much money. Given the state of things last time I flew into JFK, it'd probably be about the same amount of time involved. You could even pick up some explosives on the way, if you doubt your odds in the US, for pesos rather than dollars. Not that they're hurting for cash, anyway.

No, my mind stews with conspiracy theories based on the apparent lack of competence of these folks who supposedly see us as the greatest threat mankind has ever faced, so much so they're willing to die as long as they can take a few of us with them, yet can't even manage to blow up as much as a single 7-11 stateside in five years. Assassinations of Congressmen? Church bombings? TV station hostage crisis? Fucking child's play, and ridiculously effective if you're evil enough to not give a shit and fanatical enough to not plan an escape route. So. Where's the fucking terror?

[Lee]

I think George Bush wrote the Qu'ran. I know, I know it sounds crazy, but the evidence really is there! Think about it, it was all part of a conspiracy to justify the war in Iraq and support those Zionist pigs. The Qu'ran was planted in the Middle East to swell hatred against the Europe and America, so that oneday a group of fanatics would attack providing a justification for war... as a justification for a new crusade!

It's just all too convenient not to be a conspiracy.

[MacGuffin]

If there's a conspiracy, it's Pearl Harbor style, where they knew it was going to happen and allowed it, predicting its effect on public opinion would grant them Palpatine-like control over the military.

See? The new trilogy is already seeping into your life!

[Stoned_Rider]

I think George Bush wrote the Qu'ran. I know, I know it sounds crazy, but the evidence really is there! Think about it, it was all part of a conspiracy to justify the war in Iraq and support those Zionist pigs. The Qu'ran was planted in the Middle East to swell hatred against the Europe and America, so that oneday a group of fanatics would attack providing a justification for war... as a justification for a new crusade!

It's just all too convenient not to be a conspiracy.

:rofl:

[booyalab]

I dont find it difficult to believe that the towers were destroyed by something other than just the impact of the planes, but why does that automatically mean the Bush administration was behind it?

[MacGuffin]

I dont find it difficult to believe that the towers were destroyed by something other than just the impact of the planes, but why does that automatically mean the Bush administration was behind it?
There were some leads ignored by investigators.

One photo shot just before the towers collapsed hints at another destructive force:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9a/Stay-puff-marshmellow-man-film.jpg

[booyalab]

There were some leads ignored by investigators.

One photo shot just before the towers collapsed hints at another destructive force:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9a/Stay-puff-marshmellow-man-film.jpg

it makes sense that that piece of evidence would have been ignored since the US wasn't yet ready for an 80s revival.

[Pescaphile]

Omnirook,
That was an excellent post. It's clear that the US Govt. doesn't have the interests of its citizenry at heart. The only thing I disagree with in it is this below:
These were stupid mistakes that the world's next superpower (China) would never make.

China is not immune to hubris. History does indeed repeat itself. We're now seeing fascism rise to power once again and rearing its ugly head.

[LongSilence]

I, on the other hand, felt that post had little to do with the thread's question.

[kuranes]

*scoffs*

Why, the very IDEA of such a thing . . . .ridiculous . . . .preposturingous

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92662

[Jennywocky]

I am ashamed of my country. A quick, surgical removal of bin Laden and his supporters would have shown that we are not to be fucked with. Instead, the mess that 9/11 has created for this country is more than bin Laden could ever have hoped for - if America had grown up, if America had become a responsible member of the world community, if America had gotten past its own bullshit, Old West, tough-guy mythology. These were stupid mistakes that the world's next superpower (China) would never make.

That's what we get for hiring a personable but inarticulate frat-boy ESTP as president.


He never cared for strategy, only action.

He got bored running the bureacracy.

Detailed information/research was useless chatter to him, because nothing is happening when you're studying a situation.

He trusted that he could just leap into a situation and make it work.

He was less interested in making the right decision and more interested in gaming the system in order to dominate and gain power.


Now we're stuck fighting a war that had little to do with the original attack -- and in a way that could have been avoided if he hadn't been so stupidly stubborn and actually listened to people who knew better.

Yeah, I'm off-topic and acting irrationally at the moment, but the whole 911 thing sets me off because it's a focal point for the Bush presidency. (As a freebie rant, you know what really galls me? When Bush compares himself to Lincoln (an INTP) as part of his patriotism act. There's no comparison whatsoever, in terms of personality or behavior... or competence.)

--

In terms of 911, I doubt Bush was involved. If there was a conspiracy, he's just a patsy like everyone else. If I had to profile him, it's not his style.

And I'm generally disinclined to cater to conspiracy theories, unless the generally accepted theory is WAY off base.

The "steel melting" comments btw gel with what I've seen and read elsewhere. You're not going to get a bunch of ISTJ engineers lying about stuff like that either; they get offended when anyone is off by a tenth place in their decimal points. It seems pretty clear that the steel was heated enough that it could no longer support the structure.

[david2341.]

jet fuel maxes out at 1200 degrees c

[david2341.]

steel retains it properties up until the melting point which would be around 2500-3500 degrees or more ... the steel columns and beams were certified to withstand 2000 degrees temperatures for 3-5 hours. even if the steel was to give way, the whole entire structure would of just bent out of shape as it falls to the ground which could take minutes. the way the building were falling at freefall speeds means that the building floors did the pancake each other.

[david2341.]

the way the plane slipped into the building as if the building was made of butter is highly suspicious. upon impact of the building, the plane should of erupted into a ball of flame exterior to the building. the plane would of crumbled up and its wings sheered off.

most of the jet fuel was consumed in the initial impact. the remaining amount burned out in 2-3 minutes. the remaining isolated pockets of fire burned only at about 800 degrees c max indicated by the black colored smoke.

[david2341.]

the way the building floors fell at freefall speeds means that the building floors did NOT pancake each other

[omnirook]

Omnirook,
That was an excellent post. It's clear that the US Govt. doesn't have the interests of its citizenry at heart. The only thing I disagree with in it is this below:

China is not immune to hubris. History does indeed repeat itself. We're now seeing fascism rise to power once again and rearing its ugly head.

Thank you.

China provided one of history's worst examples of hubris. The Chinese were so convinced of their cultural superiority upon meeting Europeans for the first time that she expelled the "barbarians" and forbade their return and turned in on herself for several centuries, refusing to carry forward on the technological advances that had led her to believe in her superiority. It took the Europeans a few centuries to catch up w/China and a century or two more to surpass her, but, once the Europeans were technologically ahead of the Chinese, they came back - and China was no longer in a position to expell them. Indeed, in all ways but the most ceremonial, the Europeans were quickly China's real rulers. One "Son of Heaven" after another had to concede to ever more humiliating terms set down in "treaties" that the Europeans thought nothing of breaking when it suited them. China's self-esteem was wounded to the point of a near collapse of Chinese culture and to a complete collapse of its ancient form of government. China has learned a lesson. China has learned to learn from others, to take what she can use and make it her own.

That shows that China can learn from her mistakes - something which the United States has yet to show. Just take a look at how this country dealt w/slavery. A terrible situation was made worse; 141 years after the abolition of slavery, and the nation is still suffering the after effects, not only of the abolition of slavery but of the institution of slavery itself - and there are still people in this country who do not accept that black Americans are every bit as American as anybody else.

China's proven ability to learn the lessons of hubris bodes well for her future as a superpower. I am convinced that China will soon surpass the United States as the world's first power. If India continues to grow as it has been growing, it, too, will surpass the United States. If the United States does not "straighten up and fly right" soon, the United States will suffer terribly. At this point, it would be wise for those in our government who do occasionally look to the future to begin cribbing notes from the British: no other empire in history dealt w/the eclipse of power as well as the British Empire. No other nation that had an empire ever managed the fine and respectable recovery that Britain has managed.

[Dunearhp]

jet fuel maxes out at 1200 degrees c

Maybe in open air. Where is all this heat going to go?

[Carebear]

the way the building floors fell at freefall speeds means that the building floors did NOT pancake each other

You already said that.

And Kuranes: Yes, I've read that. It's one of the reasons I'm open to the idea of conspiracy. It's not as if it hasn't been planned before.

The "let it happen Pearl Harbour style" approach is more believeable than the administration having orchestrated the whole thing, and there's no reason they had to know exactly what would happen, only that some terrorist preparations were developing and that it could be beneficial to let it happen.

[Dunearhp]

steel retains it properties up until the melting point which would be around 2500-3500 degrees or more
Which properties are those. By simple thermal expansion a 3 metre long steel beam would be more than 4 cm longer at 1200 deg C. That is a lot of stress over the entire structure.



the steel columns and beams were certified to withstand 2000 degrees temperatures for 3-5 hours.
The beams didn't fail, the joins did. The joins can't get the same insulation and do not have the same heat rating.


even if the steel was to give way, the whole entire structure would of just bent out of shape as it falls to the ground which could take minutes. the way the building were falling at freefall speeds means that the building floors did the pancake each other.

The steel was the only structure. You underestimate freefall speeds.
The structure of the building was a distributed meshwork of steel. Each floor would get some of its strength from the structure above. The way the floors failed consecutively at the point of maximum stress is exactly what would be expected.
If the building had been helped along with explosives then there wouldn't have been as dust and ash spread across Manhattan. It would have freefalled and collected very close to ground zero.

Watch the way that explosive demolitions often destroy the support structure through the whole building before it can start falling. It makes them fall into a neat heap without blowing an excess of concrete out of the side.

[Carebear]

*scoffs*

Why, the very IDEA of such a thing . . . .ridiculous . . . .preposturingous

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92662

Here's the actual document (http://www.gwu.edu/%7Ensarchiv/news/20010430/northwoods.pdf) in PDF. Interesting stuff from the pdf's page 10 and onwards. (Document's page 7.)

[Dunearhp]

the way the plane slipped into the building as if the building was made of butter is highly suspicious.

The building slipped through the plane like the plain was made of butter. Since the plane is mostly aluminium this is a fairly accurate analogy. The WTC was mostly full of air. It was not some sort of steel coated concrete monolith.

[david2341.]

even when steel is heated to a bright orange color, it still has about half its strength and can still hold itself though bending can occur. but just about all the steel were turned to powder.

there were 47 large steel columns in the center

the fires were small and isolated burning 5-10 floors at most. if the joints were to fail, it would of been in those few floors. and if it were to fall, the upper portion would of toppled over. jet fuel did not seep into floors below. the joint failure in the floors below were not due to jet fuel.

the explosives were the reason there were so much dust and ash spread so far. the large amount of dust was from pulverized concrete, steel and office equipment. its whats known as pyroclastic flow, when the gases suspend the dust and ash and carry it over long distances even allowing it to travel over water.

yes, explosive demolitions destroy the support structure, the central core so that the outer structure falls inward. there were reports of explosions going off in the basement and prior to the buildings collapse. a witness reported that about a ton to a couple ton steel door in the basement was turned into aluminum foil.

[Gish]

I dont find it difficult to believe that the towers were destroyed by something other than just the impact of the planes, but why does that automatically mean the Bush administration was behind it?

Damned gravity, always making damaged structures fall &lt;_&lt;

[Carebear]

I dont find it difficult to believe that the towers were destroyed by something other than just the impact of the planes, but why does that automatically mean the Bush administration was behind it?

That's the thing. There's no good reason to believe they were behind it. But if something fishy happened that day (including the fishyness of the towers not being as good as the constructors had guaranteed), they either must have helped covering it up or been very incompetent.

Besides, conspiracies do happen, so why not ask the critical questions?

If the US military actually went ahead and attacked itself and killed American civilians like the plan for Cuba suggested as a course of action (in the linked pdf above), nobody would believe the conspiracy theorists, but they would still be right (unless they included aliens in their theories.)

[david2341.]

http://www.911weknow.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=18&Itemid=20

[Gish]

-_o This conspiracy theory really annoys me. You are telling me that a quarter of a million pound aircraft loaded with tens of thousands of pounds of highly reactive jet fuel could not bring down a lightly constructed building? You can obviously see that the buildings both begin their decent at the point at which they were struck by aircraft. The area above the impact even leans slightly as it is collapsing but somehow your conspiracy videos fail to show the begining of the collapse. Also, your pyroclastic flow theory is bullshit, I can point out several structural collapses in which the concrete dust flows in the same manner without the use of explosives.

[david2341.]

watch the vid clip where you see a orange flash a millisecond before
the nose of the plane hits the 2nd tower

http://www.911weknow.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=18&Itemid=20 first 5 mins of this is good

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7866929448192753501&q=loose+change+recut

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEJmcvTzYfo&mode=related&search=

[inspectorgadget]

watch the vid clip where you see a orange flash a millisecond before
the nose of the plane hits the 2nd tower

http://www.911weknow.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=18&Itemid=20 first 5 mins of this is good

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7866929448192753501&q=loose+change+recut

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEJmcvTzYfo&mode=related&search=

Go Away. All of these claims have been so thoroughly debunked by now... just do a tad bit of real research and you'd see how the conspiracy theories turn to shit at every corner, and most of it is absurd to begin with.

These "flashes" you're talking about takes the cake, though. Great job finding that one *pause..*pause* (in the best Borat impersonation possible) "NAHHHTTTT!!"

[david2341.]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkpOsUmp-9w&mode=related&search=
professor emeritus at texas a&m and former chief economist under george bush

loosechange911.com
http://torrentchannel.com/9-11/911_-_Loose_Change_2nd_Edition
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7167151489146455453&q=loose+change
2nd edition uncut

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8To3cX9Mudw&mode=related&search=
wtc first responder testimony

[Stoned_Rider]

Take your pick (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_conspiracy_theories#Debunking_conspiracy_claims)

[Dom]

Total bollocks!

Word.


This is utter tosh, it is laughable...

Really get a grip on your NPs

No one planed or deliberately demolited those buildings...

The collasped due to the way they were constructed. The vast majority of the weight being carried by steel wrapped in concrete in the centre of the tower.

Once the metal got hot enough (due ot the fire caused by the planes) it buckled and then snapped... no one claims it melted to liquid... The moment it snapped it could never stop the wieght of the building pressing down on it.

As the outer part of the building relied upon the centre struture it would slightly fold INWARDS toward the centre support as that support started to drop... hence the tower would fold done upon itself.

I'd imagine the sounds heard by firemen, these small explosions was probably the sound of several steel structures snapping under massive strain and reverberating through the building as a thus due ot being wrapped in conrete.


Get a grip guys....

People alter telegrams, make up dispatches, maybe try to assainate a world leader to start a war, they do not plan the whole sale murder of 3500 of their own people....

[Stoned_Rider]

Word.


This is utter tosh, it is laughable...

Really get a grip on your NPs

No one planed or deliberately demolited those buildings...

The collasped due to the way they were constructed. The vast majority of the weight being carried by steel wrapped in concrete in the centre of the tower.

Once the metal got hot enough (due ot the fire caused by the planes) it buckled and then snapped... no one claims it melted to liquid... The moment it snapped it could never stop the wieght of the building pressing down on it.

As the outer part of the building relied upon the centre struture it would slightly fold INWARDS toward the centre support as that support started to drop... hence the tower would fold done upon itself.

I'd imagine the sounds heard by firemen, these small explosions was probably the sound of several steel structures snapping under massive strain and reverberating through the building as a thus due ot being wrapped in conrete.


Get a grip guys....

People alter telegrams, make up dispatches, maybe try to assainate a world leader to start a war, they do not plan the whole sale murder of 3500 of their own people....
Nothing is too far-fetched for the ULTIMATE EMBODIMENT OF SATAN THAT IS GEORGE W BUSH AND THE NEO-CONS, THEY EVEN EAT BABIES!!!111111ONE

[Dom]

Nothing is too far-fetched for the ULTIMATE EMBODIMENT OF SATAN THAT IS GEORGE W BUSH AND THE NEO-CONS, THEY EVEN EAT BABIES!!!111111ONE

:rofl:

Oh yes I forgot that part.. damn it sir you are right! we must start and underground movement to get rid of them!! We will call it 'Free America' and start off with an anti satan prayer meeting... only those that pray in tounges permitted to join?? OH NO that is george's lot isn't it!!!

:lol:

I like the one by the way !!!1111111ONE. hehehe

[Melody]

the way the plane slipped into the building as if the building was made of butter is highly suspicious. upon impact of the building, the plane should of erupted into a ball of flame exterior to the building. the plane would of crumbled up and its wings sheered off.actually i think thats why they chose the mesh style structure -- in a collision, the place of impact absorbs most of the force. the collision that ur describing as ideal here -- where the plane would just be crushed on the outside, is a bad collision since its effect would travel throughout the whole structure (it would be like breaking a stick rather than poking a hole through it.) its the same reason buildings are designed to be flexible to sustain windforce


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v259/tocca/ena/g22a.jpg


------------
in regards to theories, we shouldn't mix the scale of the effect with the scale of the cause, especially since destruction is so easily obtained. just cuz a few thousand ppl died doesnt mean it took that many to do it. i can see a genius NTJ pulling off things of this scale w/ minimal external resources

ie dont assume a "coverup" is necessary. there may be very little to cover up


------------
Google Video

something i'm excited about recently is Google Video, which makes all these conspiracy videos (and ideas in general) easy to encounter. regardless of the specific messages, the mere fact that so many ppl are able to have more of a "debate" so freely is awesome

for example, i feel things would have progressed much differently if google video was available around 9/11. the anonymity, combined w/ google's shunning of political tampering, would have allowed many ppl their say via video, entirely bypassing traditional news sources (whose nutsacks may be tightly held by corruptive organizations,) and the groupthink blanket of mourning would have been folded up and stored much earlier

in this sense google video to me seems like a democratic arbiter of sorts... a hero... and i feel its effect on the progress of things will be as drastic as the search engine itself has been. as ive stated elsewhere, im especially interested in education, eg lectures and whatnot. Google Video is very young, and prolly wouldnt be out yet if it wasnt for youtube, but i have high hopes for it. go google :)


------------
btw, heres a couple more conspiracy theories

Hacking Democracy
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7236791207107726851

Who Killed the Electric Car? trailer
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6923835633598627078

[david2341.]

keep in mind that the buildings core (elevator shaft and staircase) were hermetically sealed so fire could not of made its way down the lobby and blow out the windows on the lobby floors and the marble off the wall and leave fine dust.

the amount of dust that was generated while the buildings were at the halfway descent collapse could not of been caused by a pancake collapse.

yes, the theory that the whole incident might be an inside job is hard to believe (when not looking at the facts). lot of things would of had to take place like rigging the buildings core columns with explosives, using an unmanned aerial aircraft to remote fly into the buildings, have a missile shot in the building to exaggerate the effects of the jet fuel fire to make the fire more psychologically terrifying, and possibly even have C4 poured into the concrete floors during the time of the buildings construction decades ago.

http://www.letsrollforums.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3899
AGM-114N Thermobaric Warhead

[Gish]

Why, if your theory is correct and our government has no qualms about killing thousands of it's own people, are you not dead?

[david2341.]

because i know the jesuits and a small of portion of jewish rule the world or think they rule the world. and that the jewish people are made to believe they are superior and work under guise.

[Stoic]

Our government did it. Big deal.

Is anyone watching the HBO special right now?

[david2341.]

oh please note that technology like unmanned aerial aircrafts, cell phone usage in planes, and thermobaric warheads(mini nukes) didnt become publicly known until after 9 11

[Stoic]

oh please note that technology like unmanned aerial aircrafts, cell phone usage in planes, and thermobaric warheads(mini nukes) didnt become publicly known until after 9 11

Yeah, I've pretty much accepted that this is the way it is. I'm a leftist but libertarianism is looking better everyday.&lt;_&lt;

[Gish]

oh please note that technology like unmanned aerial aircrafts, cell phone usage in planes, and thermobaric warheads(mini nukes) didnt become publicly known until after 9 11

Unmanned aerial aircraft have been known since World War II, and what do you mean about cell phone usage in planes?

[david2341.]

woo hoo yea *standing up and clapping in joy*

damn, those mutherphuckers at letsrollforums.com must be strong J types.

[david2341.]

unmanned aerial aircrafts werent given public attention until after 9 11

cell phones wouldnt work above around 1,000ft before 9 11

the thermobaric warhead become known when it was used in afghanistan to have a good killing ability when dropped in caves

i'm surprised meshou isn't getting a word into any of this ... haha

how you holding up gish

hey introvertondrugs, who are the neoconservatives

[Stoic]

how you holding up gish

hey introvertondrugs, who are the neoconservatives

Greedy conservatives.

[david2341.]

the same thing happened when i mentioned the 911 conspiracy to my friend years ago ... he didnt believe it ... just a few days ago he saw the loose change documentary and he ended up ordering the dvd.

[NoahFence]

actually i think thats why they chose the mesh style structure -- in a collision, the place of impact absorbs most of the force. the collision that ur describing as ideal here -- where the plane would just be crushed on the outside, is a bad collision since its effect would travel throughout the whole structure (it would be like breaking a stick rather than poking a hole through it.) its the same reason buildings are designed to be flexible to sustain windforce


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v259/tocca/ena/g22a.jpg



HAHAHA! =)) =))

I knew that bow had Knockback, but I thought only Kuko had piercing Explosive Arrows...

:D

Melody, you just made my day :cheers:

[Melody]

:cheers:


I knew that bow had Knockback, but I thought only Kuko had piercing Explosive Arrows...lol :dont: + :nerd:

[inspectorgadget]

the same thing happened when i mentioned the 911 conspiracy to my friend years ago ... he didnt believe it ... just a few days ago he saw the loose change documentary and he ended up ordering the dvd.


LOOSE CHANGE is absolute complete hogwash ALL THE WAY THROUGH. Virtually everything about it is disingenuous. The "experts" they quote aren't experts at all, but scam artists...

Read this ENTIRE thing and get back to me. If you still believe Loose Change is GOSPEL then you're a being willfully ignorant, and simply WANT to believe in outlandish conspiracies like this.

http://www.loosechangeguide.com/LooseChangeGuide.html

[david2341.]

whoa! ... the bomb squibs looks even more realistic

[david2341.]

there wasn't trapped air to be compressed

[david2341.]

http://thewebfairy.com/911/missileout/index.htm
plane in, missile out

[david2341.]

http://www.cloakanddagger.de/media/Grossmann/081%209-11%20Tests.htm
look at the picture that says 'smoke from burning jet fuel is black, not tan/gray'

[Carebear]

LOOSE CHANGE is absolute complete hogwash ALL THE WAY THROUGH. Virtually everything about it is disingenuous. The "experts" they quote aren't experts at all, but scam artists...

Read this ENTIRE thing and get back to me. If you still believe Loose Change is GOSPEL then you're a being willfully ignorant, and simply WANT to believe in outlandish conspiracies like this.

http://www.loosechangeguide.com/LooseChangeGuide.html


Take your pick (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_conspiracy_theories#Debunking_conspiracy_claims)

Thanks. This is exactly what I needed. I'm convinced.

[NoahFence]

Excellent debunk. Someone was really pissed off at the conspiracy theorists!

I noticed in that Loose Change thing how they refer to "anyone who questions the administration is in league with the terrorists." I couldn't help but notice...anyone who questions LC seems to be in league with the administration...funny how that works out...

[Melody]

some of the ideas are quite out there, like a missile creating a hollographic projection around itself that resembles a boeing

which reminds me. i think the best spiderman movie will be the one with that guy w/ the lil hollographic cubes (what was his name, HISPANICO or something.) cant wait

[david2341.]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVbUZyUfygI&mode=related&search=
loose change makes cnn

[david2341.]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfGb6UbVYyo&mode=related&search=
minimal damage to pentagon

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XL4isaZRapY&mode=related&search=
towers designed to take multiple airliner crashes

[Carebear]

I'm starting to suspect that david is a spam-bot.

[Stoned_Rider]

I'm starting to suspect that david is a spam-bot.
That would be an insult to spam-bots everywhere.

[david2341.]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3498980438587461603&q=9%2F11&hl=en
helipcopters triggering explosions ... watch as they circle the buildings

[In...TP]

cool... all i get is trains honking horns.

[FranG]

They did it (Gov't). They're bogous and evil.

[Carebear]

They did it (Gov't). They're bogous and evil.

Nuh uh! You're bogus and evil!

(Ok, they're evil, but I'm leaning more towards a Pearl Harbor kind of "conspiracy" than a demolitions conspiracy. Reading debunks convinced me.)

[david2341.]

http://www.pacinst.com/terrorists/preamble.html
the secret terrorists

[david2341.]

http://snowshoefilms.com/911coverup.html ... middle of page
john gray (author of men are from mars women are from venus) has his own dvd series on 9/11

[Pescaphile]

Oh, well you didn't say that John Gray had a DVD on 9-11.

By the way, who was it anyhow? The Martians or the Venusians?

[david2341.]

http://www.supportthetruth.com/hill.php
george bush admits demolitions ?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1840058038507754977&q=an+hour+long+of+content
an hour long smorgasbord of content ... final cut

jump to the 8:30s mark

http://www.cnn.com/POLLSERVER/results/14340.exclude.html
cnn poll - 89% believe govt coverup

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=40257
http://nyc.indymedia.org/en/2004/08/42939.shtml
zogby - half of new yorkers believe govt had foreknowledge of attack

peer reviewed journalof911studies.com is going to be my works cited bibliographical source for an english class essay

http://youtube.com/watch?v=glqNm0sVQhk
might get an entertaining laugh or two from this one
PNAC Founder William Kristol heckled by austin college students

http://users.cyberone.com.au/myers/ostrovsky.html
victor ostrovsky on mossad

[Carebear]

unsubscribe

[MacGuffin]

If you spent $3000 on a trip to Thailand to have sex with children, it is because you made that decision, not some Jew who arranged the trip
Nope, the Zionists made me do it.