Getting to know the INFJ?

[abathur]

What are your experiences with getting to know INFJs? Or, if you're an INFJ, what are your experiences with getting to know others, especially the INTP?

I'm trying to get to know a reasonably reserved INFJ and it feels almost like there's a wall up, preventing progress into more intimate intellectual and emotional interaction. We can chat well enough--but it doesn't tend to go far beyond that in person. Online, we can get into a reasonably deep discussion, be that intellectual or emotional. I've noticed this trend forming, and I've been trying to handle important discussions, when they come up, in that "real world" to try and help buck the trend and make some progress, but broaching serious topics and having a good discussion when we're both rather reserved hasn't been working well and usually just leads to everything that needs to be said not getting said.

I think we're both "part of the problem" to some extent, as we're both pretty socially reserved, and I think we've both been hurt enough that we're slow to trust. In the past I'd seen myself as a reasonably good conversationalist, but I think that might just have been chameleon/mirroring behavior, which is to say my ability to be a conversationalist isn't as much my ability, as the ability of who I'm talking to. I guess I'd just like to get a feel for how typical this scenario is for INFJs with everyone, and in INTP / INFJ relationships, in particular.

What would be even better would be discussing what got you through or over that wall, if you've been on either side of it before. (I'm not going to say this wall belongs to one of us, just that this wall seems to be limiting our interactions a lot--especially in person.)

[Oculus Sinister]

What are your experiences with getting to know INFJs? Or, if you're an INFJ, what are your experiences with getting to know others, especially the INTP?

I'm trying to get to know a reasonably reserved INFJ and it feels almost like there's a wall up, preventing progress into more intimate intellectual and emotional interaction. We can chat well enough--but it doesn't tend to go far beyond that in person. Online, we can get into a reasonably deep discussion, be that intellectual or emotional. I've noticed this trend forming, and I've been trying to handle important discussions, when they come up, in that "real world" to try and help buck the trend and make some progress, but broaching serious topics and having a good discussion when we're both rather reserved hasn't been working well and usually just leads to everything that needs to be said not getting said.

I think we're both "part of the problem" to some extent, as we're both pretty socially reserved, and I think we've both been hurt enough that we're slow to trust. In the past I'd seen myself as a reasonably good conversationalist, but I think that might just have been chameleon/mirroring behavior, which is to say my ability to be a conversationalist isn't as much my ability, as the ability of who I'm talking to. I guess I'd just like to get a feel for how typical this scenario is for INFJs with everyone, and in INTP / INFJ relationships, in particular.

What would be even better would be discussing what got you through or over that wall, if you've been on either side of it before. (I'm not going to say this wall belongs to one of us, just that this wall seems to be limiting our interactions a lot--especially in person.)

Damn. You too now? Is everyone around here finding INFJ's? Where did you find her? I can't for the life of me find an INFJ female. I know 2 INFJ males(good friend and Dad). I know a gossipy ENFJ(the world is out to get her and she is never wrong, ever). But I can't for the life of me find an INFJ. Damn it all, I might start going to poetry readings or something.

Good for you. I think you need to do something deep with the INFJ if you are seeking something deeply connective. A day hike, a road trip, a kayak during sunset, etc. Beyond internet, beyond nearby. I think if you go somewhere where both of you are unknown, unaware of the surroundings, where there is quiet room for discussion, things will unfold.

Where did you meet her?

[dunee]

I think you need to do something deep with the INFJ if you are seeking something deeply connective. A day hike, a road trip, a kayak during sunset, etc. Beyond internet, beyond nearby. I think if you go somewhere where both of you are unknown, unaware of the surroundings, where there is quiet room for discussion, things will unfold.

I agree. Funnily enough, all the deeper conversations I have had with my INFJ mom have been during road trips.

Road trip, spending time cooking together, or hiking are some ways to go.

[DevNull]

INFJs are all about deeds, not words. Don't fuck up anything when you are granted a stage by an INFJ. It may take a long time before they give you that stage. Remember that they are intently testing you at that point. Talk all you want after that audition, providing you pass the test. The conversation will be most pleasant forever after... until you fuck up :)

Eight years of marriage to a textbook INFJ has taught me the power of truth. I have seen what happens to people who deceive an INFJ. They are dropped like a hot pan.

I wish I could give you advice on how to accelerate the audition, but I can't. It just happens as it happens. Just don't blow it is all I am saying.

[Serotonin]

I met my INFJ gf online initially, and it was true then, and still true now, that our communication with text is much more free and verbose than it is verbally. In our case it was probably the best way we could "feel each other out", i.e. give some of our backgrounds, attitudes, viewpoints, before realising that something was clicking.

But it took a while. It was a good year or maybe more from the time we started conversing online to when we got together.
Take it slow, don't expect too much, and it's probable that both your Ns will allow you to work out whether it's going places. Good luck.

[Serotonin]

What would be even better would be discussing what got you through or over that wall, if you've been on either side of it before. (I'm not going to say this wall belongs to one of us, just that this wall seems to be limiting our interactions a lot--especially in person.)

The knowledge that she was worthwhile, and as a conversationalist and confidante, left most other people, IRL and online, in the gutter. :)

[Oculus Sinister]

INFJs are all about deeds, not words. Don't fuck up anything when you are granted a stage by an INFJ. It may take a long time before they give you that stage. Remember that they are intently testing you at that point. Talk all you want after that audition, providing you pass the test. The conversation will be most pleasant forever after... until you fuck up :)

Eight years of marriage to a textbook INFJ has taught me the power of truth. I have seen what happens to people who deceive an INFJ. They are dropped like a hot pan.

I wish I could give you advice on how to accelerate the audition, but I can't. It just happens as it happens. Just don't blow it is all I am saying.

Does it ever piss you off(I am assuming she does this like an INFJ I know) that she judges you against her values that you see her not living up to occassionally?

[abathur]

Damn. You too now? Is everyone around here finding INFJ's? Where did you find her? I can't for the life of me find an INFJ female. I know 2 INFJ males(good friend and Dad). I know a gossipy ENFJ(the world is out to get her and she is never wrong, ever). But I can't for the life of me find an INFJ. Damn it all, I might start going to poetry readings or something.

Good for you. I think you need to do something deep with the INFJ if you are seeking something deeply connective. A day hike, a road trip, a kayak during sunset, etc. Beyond internet, beyond nearby. I think if you go somewhere where both of you are unknown, unaware of the surroundings, where there is quiet room for discussion, things will unfold.

Where did you meet her?

Haha. Well, we were both in the same first year Latin courses, but judging from what I know of myself, much less what I know of her, that would be the end of the story if we hadn't had a mutual friend in the class to introduce us to each other. We've known each other for over a year, now, but haven't really been anything but casual acquaintances for a significant portion of that time.

I like that advice. I'll have to look for something that would fit the bill. I've been needing an excuse to get her away from her roommates (we've had a bit of an issue with them, she thought one of the girls was a safe confidant, I had told her some things that I didn't particularly want going beyond her, though I have no intrinsic objection to the girl she told knowing, but I ended up hearing it all back through the mutual friend, and even worse it'd done a little telephone bit and made me come off like an unstable creep.) I'd already been pondering a few trip ideas, but money is a problem for both of us. Anyways, now that I've got another reason to think about doing that, I'll find something we can do.

[DevNull]

Does it ever piss you off(I am assuming she does this like an INFJ I know) that she judges you against her values that you see her not living up to occassionally?

That is a stress trait of an INFJ. An INFJ does not live up to their own standards only when under stress and MAN do they beat themselves up over it.

It does not piss me off anymore since I found out it was generated by stress. The makeup sex is worth suffering through it. Find the cause of the stress, work on it together, enjoy the apology sex and ride that ass all the way to the blissful, blissful sleep at the end.

Since I seem to remember that you are not yet in an INFJ relationship, then try to honestly play upon the fact that you have been hurt. Don't cry or anything, but don't let it slide.

[abathur]

INFJs are all about deeds, not words. Don't fuck up anything when you are granted a stage by an INFJ. It may take a long time before they give you that stage. Remember that they are intently testing you at that point. Talk all you want after that audition, providing you pass the test. The conversation will be most pleasant forever after... until you fuck up :)

Eight years of marriage to a textbook INFJ has taught me the power of truth. I have seen what happens to people who deceive an INFJ. They are dropped like a hot pan.

I wish I could give you advice on how to accelerate the audition, but I can't. It just happens as it happens. Just don't blow it is all I am saying.

Define "It"? And clarify being "granted a stage"? Fuckups are inevitable, but deception isn't much in my nature, so I doubt that'll ever be an issue. If anything, I'm over-concerned about anything being less-than-honest. I've thought about pressing forward more in other areas of the friendship (not really talking about sex, but just our general level of closeness) but I don't want to give her all the signs that she's about to end up in a relationship without knowing if we'll get past this wall.

To be more succinct, there: I'd like to fall in love with her, but I'm not feeling the connection I need for that, yet. I'd feel absolutely miserable if I forged on anyways and ended up with her in love with me, and me unable to genuinely reciprocate.

I should also probably clarify that I'd still just consider this a friendship, at this point. Relationship stuff has come up, at this point, and there's some mutual interest, but I don't know that we fit any normal definition for a "relationship" yet.

So, would you say she is consciously testing whether or not I'm worth opening up to, or is she wanting to open up, but will have to overcome some obstacles to get there? I'm not really worried about failing any test. Unless a required part of the test is acting fast or trying hard to get into her pants.

[ajonesballa]

INFJs are all about deeds, not words. Don't fuck up anything when you are granted a stage by an INFJ. It may take a long time before they give you that stage. Remember that they are intently testing you at that point. Talk all you want after that audition, providing you pass the test. The conversation will be most pleasant forever after... until you fuck up :)

Eight years of marriage to a textbook INFJ has taught me the power of truth. I have seen what happens to people who deceive an INFJ. They are dropped like a hot pan.

I wish I could give you advice on how to accelerate the audition, but I can't. It just happens as it happens. Just don't blow it is all I am saying.


As an INFJ male this is so true with me. I HATE fake people who smile in your face, and can always sense fake, manipaluative people out, and ALWAYS brush them aside. Even though I'm a J, I don't judge those who are authentic about their lifestyle. It's the fakers and posers that ABSOULUTELY piss me off!! I try to avoid these people like the plague.

[abathur]

But it took a while. It was a good year or maybe more from the time we started conversing online to when we got together.
Take it slow, don't expect too much, and it's probable that both your Ns will allow you to work out whether it's going places. Good luck.
Sounds good. Reaffirming. I figured this was just how it was going to be, but at the same time I've been a little anxious to get things to work. I've had the nagging "impending doom" running through the back of my mind for the past week or two. Repetitive thoughts that it just won't work, despite my more reasoned conclusion being that we just haven't had enough time, yet.


The knowledge that she was worthwhile, and as a conversationalist and confidante, left most other people, IRL and online, in the gutter. :)

:)
We'll see. After the incident I mentioned above, the confidante part is up in the air a bit. I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt, as I realize she's going to have to have someone to talk to about things, herself, but if everything I ever tell her is gossip fodder (which I doubt will happen, it seems very antithetical to her personality) then any relationship prospects would be short-lived. I don't have the stomach for it. Bygones, unless it keeps happening.

[Zero Angel]

Maybe you could, in a moment of difficulty, confide in her about it and ask for her advice or opinion. My Dad is an INFJ and he has a serious savior/pygmalion complex (most of the women he was drawn to had something wrong with them that he thought he could fix). I'm not saying you should find a problem or make one up, just try to establish some sort of emotional connection with them. If you are genuine enough, they might reciprocate.

What do the INFJs on the forums think?

P.S.: If she ever tells you the negative impressions she gets about other people, then congratulations my man! You are halfway through the INFJ onion (INFJ's are like onions, just like ogres). :)

[abathur]

Maybe you could, in a moment of difficulty, confide in her about it and ask for her advice or opinion. My Dad is an INFJ and he has a serious savior complex (most of the women he was drawn to had something wrong with them that he thought he could fix). I'm not saying you should find a problem or make one up, just try to establish some sort of emotional connection with them. If you are genuine enough, they might reciprocate.

What do the INFJs on the forums think?
To some extent, this is already how we've ended up where we are. Not that I knew that would be the result, nor do I really know to what extent that is still an influence. I'd like to think she's not just interested because I'm damaged and she thinks she can help... not that I'm not damaged, or that she can't help, but I'm not sure how good of a basis that is for the relationship. It's definitely been a concern of mine that our biggest source of connection has been our problems with the previously mentioned mutual friend (and I'm paranoid enough to wonder, on occasion, if any of this has been contrived, but I think I'm giving the mutual friend too much credit in that.)

Anyways, I see the merit to what you're saying, but since that has already figured reasonably into our past, I'm more looking to move the emphasis away from a "helper" situation, if anything, to a more egalitarian (and hopefully less conditional) foundation.

[Stoic]

For me, I've really liked and got along with the INFJ's I've known well, I can't think of any INFJ guys that I know as anything more than an acquaintance however.


Does it ever piss you off(I am assuming she does this like an INFJ I know) that she judges you against her values that you see her not living up to occassionally?

I've noticed this as well. What bugs me about it is that it seems like there is nothing I can do to change her judgement, it's very "final."

I hate it even more when I have no idea what I did to deserve this judgement.

[philonightmare]

What are your experiences with getting to know INFJs? Or, if you're an INFJ, what are your experiences with getting to know others, especially the INTP?

I'm trying to get to know a reasonably reserved INFJ and it feels almost like there's a wall up, preventing progress into more intimate intellectual and emotional interaction. We can chat well enough--but it doesn't tend to go far beyond that in person. Online, we can get into a reasonably deep discussion, be that intellectual or emotional. I've noticed this trend forming, and I've been trying to handle important discussions, when they come up, in that "real world" to try and help buck the trend and make some progress, but broaching serious topics and having a good discussion when we're both rather reserved hasn't been working well and usually just leads to everything that needs to be said not getting said.

I think we're both "part of the problem" to some extent, as we're both pretty socially reserved, and I think we've both been hurt enough that we're slow to trust. In the past I'd seen myself as a reasonably good conversationalist, but I think that might just have been chameleon/mirroring behavior, which is to say my ability to be a conversationalist isn't as much my ability, as the ability of who I'm talking to. I guess I'd just like to get a feel for how typical this scenario is for INFJs with everyone, and in INTP / INFJ relationships, in particular.

What would be even better would be discussing what got you through or over that wall, if you've been on either side of it before. (I'm not going to say this wall belongs to one of us, just that this wall seems to be limiting our interactions a lot--especially in person.)
Try hanging out together whilst hiking or some other outdoor activity. Building up her trust in learning to approach you for conversation would be inevitable if you're in the middle of nowhere and she wishes to share her vivid imagination and observations of the surroundings with someone. It might help you as well in learning her body language --such as when would be the best moments to engage in deeper conversation and when to just be playful.

[The Universe]

In the long run it just isnt worth it.

[C.J.Woolf]

We can chat well enough--but it doesn't tend to go far beyond that in person. Online, we can get into a reasonably deep discussion, be that intellectual or emotional.
This is one of those posts that makes me feel dated. When I was in college there was no "online" for me -- no chat, not even e-mail. The remotest you could get in conversation was telephone, and even that involved voices.

That is to say, perhaps you would have had in-depth conversations in person if you didn't have online chat to fall back on.

Perhaps not.

P.S. Don't listen to The Universe. ;)

[cafe]

My INTP and I didn't have easy internet access back when we met, either. I wonder how that might have changed things, if at all.

The reason you are feeling as though there is a wall up is because there is a wall up. I suspect this is a normal thing for INFJs. If the INFJ is interested in you in a romantic way, you likely are being observed pretty closely.

There were some good suggestions made here about activity-oriented interaction. I concur. The majority of I and my INTP's courtship was spent on long walks in and around a tiny town on the North Dakota prairie. It was a good way to get to know one another in a non-awkward setting.

Otherwise, as folks have already mentioned, keep giving it time. It has to kind of develop organically to feel authentic sometimes.

[htb]

I've had the nagging "impending doom" running through the back of my mind for the past week or two.INFJ females may act differently, but I will not invest time in a close or potentially romantic relationship to which I have no intention of committing. Certainly, there are circumstances and nuances to work around, and that is a matter of subtle exchanges and accommodation and patience for both parties. But it seems more likely that an INFJ will decline straightaway, if nothing else than in accordance with a judging preference; and if there are concerns, then the INFJ may issue several warnings, each one more overt than the last.

[Jennywocky]

INFJ females may act differently, but I will not invest time in a close or potentially romantic relationship to which I have no intention of committing. Certainly, there are circumstances and nuances to work around, and that is a matter of subtle exchanges and accommodation and patience for both parties. But it seems more likely that an INFJ will decline straightaway, if nothing else than in accordance with a judging preference; and if there are concerns, then the INFJ may issue several warnings, each one more overt than the last.

That's what I have seen -- at least the desire for closure and not investing in what has already been deemed as a non-workable relationship (or one the INFJ is not currently willing to commit to).

Being open-ended, I am much more inclined to see the possibilities of a relationship as interesting up front (or not) and go into it to see what develops... although actually making the hard commitment is a very deliberate decision and takes a long time.

This sort of thing played out with INFJ's I've known as well. They definitely had specific walls up -- not really to hide, but as a castle (such as the city of Minas Tirith in LOTR) has various levels with walls up, and so I would be rebuffed and kept at a certain level of disclosure until I had proven myself enough, whereupon suddenly I'd find myself admitted into the next level. (And so on.) The delineations were abrupt and very clear.

me, I usually just have one impenetrable wall right at the center of my castle, and all the rest of the terrain outside of it is open for exploration unless someone proves themselves untrustworthy... whereupon I install a new boundary just for them, at the point where they proved they couldn't deal. Sometimes the boundary is so subtle that they push against it too much, and that's where I spell it out for them in no uncertain terms, but it's funny how even my "boundaries" are kept undefined and low-key unless it's necessary to spell them out.

[Toonia]

What are your experiences with getting to know INFJs? Or, if you're an INFJ, what are your experiences with getting to know others, especially the INTP?One thing both types share, imo, is difficulty responding to social pressure. For me, consistency is a big deal for gaining trust. It's not unlike coaxing a deer out of the forest - possibly for both types. Just sitting still and consistently, nothing forced. Of course yummy snacks are never a miss. :)

Consistently spending time together irl is important, but perhaps not with the primary goal of achieving any particular conversation. I would suggest starting with parallel activities like watching a movie, sharing experiences together. Whatever interests you share: horseback riding, video games, art museums, baking cookies - it doesn't matter as long as the focus is shared and not directly on each other. I think INFJ's often feel they share unspoken bonds with people. I have a few internet friends here and elsewhere and i would probably clam up irl at first if i met them just because there are so many new signals to read and relearn who the person is. If some degree of intimacy has been established online, the INFJ may withdraw moreso irl for the purpose of evaluating the new scenario.

There is also a viscous cycle i have to deal with as an INFJ. My instinct to withdraw and observe socially can be misinterpreted as judging someone, snobbery, or rejection when it is absolutely not any of those things at all. It is more an inquisitive interest in the other person, and analysis of who they are, who i am, how we might interact, what it all means. The thinking is very nuanced and complex and requires concentration, but someone who doesn't think that way fills in the blank with their own fears of negative thoughts. When this starts to happen i withdraw even more to analyse and understand better. No fun. That's why someone who is just still and consistent, and doesn't judge me or pressure me is a big hit. I would suggest approaching an INFJ like you would any other little forest creature. :smooch:

[Zero Angel]

With a 30.06? ;)

[faith]

Lots of good advice here. I'd enjoy a hike or something similar. Very good to be alone together, sharing a common activity, with something simple to discuss and plenty of opportunities for deep thoughts as well as laughs.

DevNull seems to have a good handle on INFJs in relationships. Toonia's got a very good point about "withdrawing" to observe.

I definitely have a wall up--many walls, actually. The onion analogy is a good one. Among other things, I keep my disappoints in myself behind those walls. It's been discussed how hard INFJs can be on themselves when they don't live up to their own standards. When that happens to me, I put it behind a wall because I'm naturally ashamed of it.

One of the "auditions" DevNull mentions is when I let someone see one of those things in myself that I'm ashamed of. I don't always make it clear what it is. Sometimes, when I sense that the time is right and the person is very trustworthy, I'll just open the door in the wall and watch what he does. (This is me offering him a stage, to use DevNull's metaphor.) If he comes in, good. If he looks around with interest, good. If he begins a conversation about what he sees, good. If he responds with understanding (patience, tenderness, fogiveness, etc.) when I casually bring his attention to that thing I'm ashamed of, he's just nailed the audition. Sometimes I don't tell him what it is that I'm ashamed of--I just let him see it so I can get his genuine reaction.

You can call this a test, I suppose... But "test" has a feeling of falseness to it--something constructed specifically to guage a response. When I open a door in a wall, I'm taking a definite risk and there's nothing false about it.

edit: If at any time he betrays me in some way--if he doesn't prove trustworthy--he will be summarily evicted from the castle or onion or whatever metaphor you prefer.

[Lee]

I think the message which we can take from this thread is that getting to know an INFJ is like storming an onion.

[cafe]

I think the message which we can take from this thread is that getting to know an INFJ is like storming an onion.
Not storming, quite. It's more like doing Shum's signature to an onion . . .

[Toonia]

I definitely have a wall up--many walls, actually. The onion analogy is a good one. Among other things, I keep my disappoints in myself behind those walls. It's been discussed how hard INFJs can be on themselves when they don't live up to their own standards. When that happens to me, I put it behind a wall because I'm naturally ashamed of it.Here's one example of an INFJ wall = misunderstanding. Back when I was a skinny little noodle in high school i was a fringe member of a clique. They would sometimes get silly in the locker room and i would withdraw and change quickly and leave. In my mind it was a blaring example of how i just couldn't fit in with anyone. I couldn't think of anything funny to say, and would become very self critical and depressed. Well, years later one of the girls said she always thought i was judging them. :sorry: Prime example.

[htb]

getting to know an INFJ is like storming an onion.Or shooting an impresario from a duck blind. (Now the simile's apt.)


This sort of thing played out with INFJ's I've known as well. They definitely had specific walls up -- not really to hide, but as a castle (such as the city of Minas Tirith in LOTR) / me, I usually just have one impenetrable wall right at the center of my castle, and all the rest of the terrain outside of it is open for exploration unless someone proves themselves untrustworthy...Is this more of a sexual dimorphism? Your single wall sounds much more like my willingness to share with a trusted friend.

Edit: It may also be another difference between Enneagram 4s, which I believe most of the INFJ girls here are, and Enneagram 1s, i.e., me.

[cafe]

Here's one example of an INFJ wall = misunderstanding. Back when I was a skinny little noodle in high school i was a fringe member of a clique. They would sometimes get silly in the locker room and i would withdraw and change quickly and leave. In my mind it was a blaring example of how i just couldn't fit in with anyone. I couldn't think of anything funny to say, and would become very self critical and depressed. Well, years later one of the girls said she always thought i was judging them. :sorry: Prime example.
:( I hate when that happens. Apparently when I'm feeling awkward and uncomfortable, instead of acting like I feel all awkward and uncomfortable, I act all stone-faced and ice queen-ish. Also, sometime people miss that I'm joking because of the dry sense of humor, which they aren't expecting because I give off a serious vibe. I wish I didn't come off that way. :banghead:

[cafe]

Edit: It may also be another difference between Enneagram 4s, which I believe most of the INFJ girls here are, and Enneagram 1s, i.e., me.
I always test 9w1, strangely enough.

[htb]

9w1, interesting. Noted. Theory herewith discarded.

[faith]

*nods in sympathy with Toonia and Cafe*

Yep. Me too.

[abathur]

That's what I have seen -- at least the desire for closure and not investing in what has already been deemed as a non-workable relationship (or one the INFJ is not currently willing to commit to).

Being open-ended, I am much more inclined to see the possibilities of a relationship as interesting up front (or not) and go into it to see what develops... although actually making the hard commitment is a very deliberate decision and takes a long time.

This sort of thing played out with INFJ's I've known as well. They definitely had specific walls up -- not really to hide, but as a castle (such as the city of Minas Tirith in LOTR) has various levels with walls up, and so I would be rebuffed and kept at a certain level of disclosure until I had proven myself enough, whereupon suddenly I'd find myself admitted into the next level. (And so on.) The delineations were abrupt and very clear.

me, I usually just have one impenetrable wall right at the center of my castle, and all the rest of the terrain outside of it is open for exploration unless someone proves themselves untrustworthy... whereupon I install a new boundary just for them, at the point where they proved they couldn't deal. Sometimes the boundary is so subtle that they push against it too much, and that's where I spell it out for them in no uncertain terms, but it's funny how even my "boundaries" are kept undefined and low-key unless it's necessary to spell them out.

Interesting. Yes, I'd probably agree that I have more like one wall. Perhaps not even a wall. I'm much more likely to let someone in on something if they ask than I am to just spontaneously open up. So I guess I take it case-by-case, since I rarely do volunteer information about myself. I'll keep an eye out for various walls, then.

[headfonez]

What are your experiences with getting to know INFJs? Or, if you're an INFJ, what are your experiences with getting to know others, especially the INTP?

I'm trying to get to know a reasonably reserved INFJ and it feels almost like there's a wall up, preventing progress into more intimate intellectual and emotional interaction. We can chat well enough--but it doesn't tend to go far beyond that in person. Online, we can get into a reasonably deep discussion, be that intellectual or emotional. I've noticed this trend forming, and I've been trying to handle important discussions, when they come up, in that "real world" to try and help buck the trend and make some progress, but broaching serious topics and having a good discussion when we're both rather reserved hasn't been working well and usually just leads to everything that needs to be said not getting said.

I think we're both "part of the problem" to some extent, as we're both pretty socially reserved, and I think we've both been hurt enough that we're slow to trust. In the past I'd seen myself as a reasonably good conversationalist, but I think that might just have been chameleon/mirroring behavior, which is to say my ability to be a conversationalist isn't as much my ability, as the ability of who I'm talking to. I guess I'd just like to get a feel for how typical this scenario is for INFJs with everyone, and in INTP / INFJ relationships, in particular.

What would be even better would be discussing what got you through or over that wall, if you've been on either side of it before. (I'm not going to say this wall belongs to one of us, just that this wall seems to be limiting our interactions a lot--especially in person.)

Warning, this will sound offensive to you.

My solution is that you should get over your wall Then find someone who also is over their wall. Unless ofcourse, though you dont want to admit it, her being behind the wall is incredibly attractive

Just remember that no matter how hard you try, you will not be able to get her from behind her wall. Just like someone cant get you from behind your wall. Even if they did, you know that you dont like the person who yanked you from behind your wall of security.

[darlets]

Example of breaking through an INFJ's walls
.....................................................................................

Cafe: For your information, there's a lot more to INFJ than people think.

Don: Example?

Cafe: Example? Okay, um, INFJ are like onions.

Don: [Sniffs] They stink?

Cafe: Yes. No!

Don: They make you cry?

Cafe: No!

Don: You leave them out in the sun, they get all brown, start sprouting' little white hairs.

Cafe: No! Layers! Onions have layers! INFJ have layers! Onions have layers.
You get it? We both have layers. [Sighs]

Don: Oh, you both have layers. Oh. [Sniffs] You know, not everybody likes onions. Cake! Everybody loves cakes! Cakes have layers.

Cafe: I don't care... what everyone likes. INFJ are not like cakes.

Don: You know what else everybody likes? Parfaits. Have you ever met a person, you say, "Let's get some parfait," they say, "Hell no, I don't like no parfait"? Parfaits are delicious.

Cafe: No! You dense, irritating, miniature beast of burden! INFJ are like onions! End of story. Bye-bye. See ya later.

[headfonez]

Cafe: No! You dense, irritating, miniature beast of burden! INFJ are like onions! End of story. Bye-bye. See ya later.

Breaking through? Sounds like 'building reinforcements' to me.

[abathur]

One thing both types share, imo, is difficulty responding to social pressure. For me, consistency is a big deal for gaining trust. It's not unlike coaxing a deer out of the forest - possibly for both types. Just sitting still and consistently, nothing forced. Of course yummy snacks are never a miss. :)
I can see this. I'll need to calm myself a little. I think it's important to be able to sit with someone and not say anything at all, but at the same time I don't really like awkward silences where it seems like both parties have something to say, but it never comes out. We've had a number of these, and I suppose my patience is being tested. Not because I can't wait, but just because I'd like it to go faster. All of the responses are rather reinforcing patience, though, so I'll work on that.

Have you experienced similar awkward silences? What were you thinking when they happened? How do you handle that sort of thing, internally?


Consistently spending time together irl is important, but perhaps not with the primary goal of achieving any particular conversation. I would suggest starting with parallel activities like watching a movie, sharing experiences together. Whatever interests you share: horseback riding, video games, art museums, baking cookies - it doesn't matter as long as the focus is shared and not directly on each other. I think INFJ's often feel they share unspoken bonds with people. I have a few internet friends here and elsewhere and i would probably clam up irl at first if i met them just because there are so many new signals to read and relearn who the person is. If some degree of intimacy has been established online, the INFJ may withdraw moreso irl for the purpose of evaluating the new scenario. Like with above, good point. I think I'll need to just put a specific level of conversational intimacy out of my mind. I'm happy enough to just sit down quietly together, but I admit that, more often than not, I've had some sort of goal for what I'd like to see happen in the back of my mind. That probably isn't helping things.


There is also a viscous cycle i have to deal with as an INFJ. My instinct to withdraw and observe socially can be misinterpreted as judging someone, snobbery, or rejection when it is absolutely not any of those things at all. It is more an inquisitive interest in the other person, and analysis of who they are, who i am, how we might interact, what it all means. The thinking is very nuanced and complex and requires concentration, but someone who doesn't think that way fills in the blank with their own fears of negative thoughts. When this starts to happen i withdraw even more to analyse and understand better. No fun. That's why someone who is just still and consistent, and doesn't judge me or pressure me is a big hit. I would suggest approaching an INFJ like you would any other little forest creature. :smooch:

Amusing that you mention this, as she's brought up a few other scenarios where she's been accused of being judgemental, snobbish, etc.

I imagine most little forest creatures don't take well to being held, at any point in time. Is this the case with INFJs? ;) What have been your personal timelines regarding comfort with physical contact (non-sexual, but reasonably intimate,) especially in relation to admittance past various walls?

[C.J.Woolf]

I think the message which we can take from this thread is that getting to know an INFJ is like storming an onion.
Or like peeling a fortress.

[lbloom]

I have a quick question on the side: for those who have seen it, is Virginia Madsen's character in Sideways INFJ or ISFJ?

Just curious.

[abathur]

I definitely have a wall up--many walls, actually. The onion analogy is a good one. Among other things, I keep my disappoints in myself behind those walls. It's been discussed how hard INFJs can be on themselves when they don't live up to their own standards. When that happens to me, I put it behind a wall because I'm naturally ashamed of it.

One of the "auditions" DevNull mentions is when I let someone see one of those things in myself that I'm ashamed of. I don't always make it clear what it is. Sometimes, when I sense that the time is right and the person is very trustworthy, I'll just open the door in the wall and watch what he does. (This is me offering him a stage, to use DevNull's metaphor.) If he comes in, good. If he looks around with interest, good. If he begins a conversation about what he sees, good. If he responds with understanding (patience, tenderness, fogiveness, etc.) when I casually bring his attention to that thing I'm ashamed of, he's just nailed the audition. Sometimes I don't tell him what it is that I'm ashamed of--I just let him see it so I can get his genuine reaction.

You can call this a test, I suppose... But "test" has a feeling of falseness to it--something constructed specifically to guage a response. When I open a door in a wall, I'm taking a definite risk and there's nothing false about it.

edit: If at any time he betrays me in some way--if he doesn't prove trustworthy--he will be summarily evicted from the castle or onion or whatever metaphor you prefer.

So, what if he doesn't notice the door is open (if you haven't drawn attention to it)? Not that I think this has happened, but that I can be rather oblivious and it might well. If I noticed, I'm pretty sure I'd have no problem with any of the others.

She did start crying when I confronted her (it wasn't really a "confrontation" in any hostile sense) about the stuff I'd told her coming back to me from others. She sat for a minute, then went to the bathroom rather briefly and came back. She cried some more over the next little bit we talked about it, though I guess I did most of the talking (and a little crying, too) Even though she didn't really open up, or look me in the eye a whole lot (I asked her to come sit by me when I got the impression doing so was making her uncomfortable) I took it as some sign of trust that she let me watch her cry, at least part of the time. Perhaps I shouldn't be taking it this way--I'm not really sure how it goes for INFJs. I know if *I* let you watch me cry it's a pretty incredibly big vote of trust. Thoughts?

[abathur]

Warning, this will sound offensive to you.

My solution is that you should get over your wall Then find someone who also is over their wall. Unless ofcourse, though you dont want to admit it, her being behind the wall is incredibly attractive

Just remember that no matter how hard you try, you will not be able to get her from behind her wall. Just like someone cant get you from behind your wall. Even if they did, you know that you dont like the person who yanked you from behind your wall of security.

That doesn't really sound offensive. I don't think I'm really attracted to her being behind her wall, but I know I'm turned off by someone clamoring all over me. I don't see the combined walls as insurmountable, as long as we're both interested in coming out. True, I'd resent being yanked out from behind my wall, but there isn't really any yanking going on here. We're both going to have to make a conscious effort to step outside.

[faith]

I imagine most little forest creatures don't take well to being held, at any point in time. Is this the case with INFJs? ;) What have been your personal timelines regarding comfort with physical contact (non-sexual, but reasonably intimate,) especially in relation to admittance past various walls?

I like physical contact as a way to express affection.

I hate that needy or manipulative kind of physical contact. I dislike being touched when I'm not already in agreement with someone--i.e. I don't like touch being used to promote agreement. If we're arguing, or if you're persuading me, or anything which could appear as though we're not already on the same side, together, then I will usually resent your touch. I also hate being touched if I sense that it's mainly to satisfy the other person--as in those groping, petting kinds of guys who try to play it off that they like you, but really they just need to be touching a girl.

If I call you a friend, you're welcome to put your arm around me. If I've shared negative emotion with you, you can hug me. If I consider you a close friend, we can snuggle on the sofa as we watch a movie.


So, what if he doesn't notice the door is open (if you haven't drawn attention to it)? Not that I think this has happened, but that I can be rather oblivious and it might well. If I noticed, I'm pretty sure I'd have no problem with any of the others. Yeah, it happens that someone doesn't notice the open door. When it does, I don't take it as a sign of rejection--just that he's not interested in me enough to notice or care that I've opened a door. I assume he's not interested in getting past the wall. I'm disappointed, but I'm not going to stop being his friend. If I sense things changing in the future, I may open the door again.


She did start crying when I confronted her (it wasn't really a "confrontation" in any hostile sense) about the stuff I'd told her coming back to me from others. She sat for a minute, then went to the bathroom rather briefly and came back. She cried some more over the next little bit we talked about it, though I guess I did most of the talking (and a little crying, too) Even though she didn't really open up, or look me in the eye a whole lot (I asked her to come sit by me when I got the impression doing so was making her uncomfortable) I took it as some sign of trust that she let me watch her cry, at least part of the time. Perhaps I shouldn't be taking it this way--I'm not really sure how it goes for INFJs. I know if *I* let you watch me cry it's a pretty incredibly big vote of trust. Thoughts? That may depend on the person. Unless I dislike someone, I don't really mind people seeing me cry--except when it obviously makes them uncomfortable, and then I just feel bad that my emotions have caused them discomfort. For me, it's a much bigger sign of trust if I look you in the eyes while I'm talking about emotional things. Like your INFJ, I don't mind crying and I'll be glad to sit next to a friend, but I won't look them in the eye until I'm 100% sure I can trust them in every single way. My eyes express too much; you can read too much of me through my eyes. I keep them averted for privacy.

[Carebear]

She did start crying when I confronted her (it wasn't really a "confrontation" in any hostile sense) about the stuff I'd told her coming back to me from others. She sat for a minute, then went to the bathroom rather briefly and came back. She cried some more over the next little bit we talked about it, though I guess I did most of the talking (and a little crying, too) Even though she didn't really open up, or look me in the eye a whole lot (I asked her to come sit by me when I got the impression doing so was making her uncomfortable) I took it as some sign of trust that she let me watch her cry, at least part of the time. Perhaps I shouldn't be taking it this way--I'm not really sure how it goes for INFJs. I know if *I* let you watch me cry it's a pretty incredibly big vote of trust. Thoughts?

To me this seems like a good example of an INFJ beating herself up over the realisation of not having lived up to her own standards. In that case, this moment wasn't really a high in your relationship, but if you show her that you really didn't mind, it make her trust you more.

As for what to do to get the good conversations: My INFJ wife and I started getting the good conversations, flirting etc on longer walks, and even today we have our best conversatons when driving or walking.

[cafe]

Example of breaking through an INFJ's walls
.....................................................................................

Cafe: For your information, there's a lot more to INFJ than people think.

Don: Example?

Cafe: Example? Okay, um, INFJ are like onions.

Don: [Sniffs] They stink?

Cafe: Yes. No!

Don: They make you cry?

Cafe: No!

Don: You leave them out in the sun, they get all brown, start sprouting' little white hairs.

Cafe: No! Layers! Onions have layers! INFJ have layers! Onions have layers.
You get it? We both have layers. [Sighs]

Don: Oh, you both have layers. Oh. [Sniffs] You know, not everybody likes onions. Cake! Everybody loves cakes! Cakes have layers.

Cafe: I don't care... what everyone likes. INFJ are not like cakes.

Don: You know what else everybody likes? Parfaits. Have you ever met a person, you say, "Let's get some parfait," they say, "Hell no, I don't like no parfait"? Parfaits are delicious.

Cafe: No! You dense, irritating, miniature beast of burden! INFJ are like onions! End of story. Bye-bye. See ya later.
Don't make me come over there, darlets. :threat:



:lol:

[Toonia]

I can see this. I'll need to calm myself a little. I think it's important to be able to sit with someone and not say anything at all, but at the same time I don't really like awkward silences where it seems like both parties have something to say, but it never comes out. We've had a number of these, and I suppose my patience is being tested. Not because I can't wait, but just because I'd like it to go faster. All of the responses are rather reinforcing patience, though, so I'll work on that.Having something to share focusing on like a movie or something can really eliminate the awkward silences. Just plan for activities to fill the silences and just take a deep breath. The awkward silences that seem most threatening are the ones in which you feel the person is expecting something from you that you cannot deliver.


Have you experienced similar awkward silences? What were you thinking when they happened? How do you handle that sort of thing, internally?When i was younger, it would be a time for self doubt and criticism. Now that I'm older almost nothing phases me.


I imagine most little forest creatures don't take well to being held, at any point in time. Is this the case with INFJs? ;) What have been your personal timelines regarding comfort with physical contact (non-sexual, but reasonably intimate,) especially in relation to admittance past various walls?My experiences might make me less representational of all INFJ's, but do believe that touch is important communication for INFJ's in general, but tends to be selective. Socially there has been an interplay of isolation and intimacy which can be difficult to reconcile. The simplicity, but intensity of communicating through touch can be a deep relief. It is also an area of vulnerability. Cozying up in a big poofy blanket in a happy fun way is a good place to start. I don't believe that INFJ's often display their sensuality in obvious ways and can often be overlooked. Two of the best ways to appeal to INFJ sensuality is to be lighthearted, childlike, funny, and cozy and/or to just tell the INFJ how you find her beautiful. See her as deeply sensual and much will be said with your eyes. It is also much easier for an INFJ to respond when they are already seen and don't have to prove or convince someone of anything intimate. It is an irony that many INFJ's can be mistaken for not wanting to express physically, because i think it is quite the opposite. One other INFJ quality that makes it easier for others is that i don't think we generally mind if someone has an awkward moment. This might be a little twisted, but it's especially fun if a guy manages to be distracted by me enough to trip or fumble. That's a good compliment. :wub:

[AllAboutSoul]

:( I hate when that happens. Apparently when I'm feeling awkward and uncomfortable, instead of acting like I feel all awkward and uncomfortable, I act all stone-faced and ice queen-ish. Also, sometime people miss that I'm joking because of the dry sense of humor, which they aren't expecting because I give off a serious vibe. I wish I didn't come off that way. :banghead:



I know exactly what you mean. It's caused all kinds of misunderstandings and I absolutely hate and even fear that. It's screwed up some potentially nice relationships before they ever got started. Of course, if they'ed really been interested in me, maybe they could've cut me just a little slack :(

[nobarcode]

Within the last year:

infj #1: she 'opened the door' and we talked on the phone for hours, every time. I thought...finally. I 'knew' she was involved with someone else and she knew that I knew (but pretended she was not :) ) -wordy sure, but I'm being lazy. Our final conversation involved, asaic, knowing the same thing and I think she became 'fearful' -'I don't want to deal with that' sort of sentiment. She seemed like a fish out of water, with her job, etc. and while being well aware, didn't seem to want to do anything about it.

infj #2: practically the same thing. I won't really say, because guess what? :) I'll bet she can speak for herself, here. :whistle:

Otherwise and in general, they are hard on themselves under stress, etc., but fun to speak with because it seems they, at least in my two examples, can read my mind, so to say and likewise.

I like it...whatever it is.

(I've had a beer or 5, so...)

[abathur]

I like physical contact as a way to express affection.

I hate that needy or manipulative kind of physical contact. I dislike being touched when I'm not already in agreement with someone--i.e. I don't like touch being used to promote agreement. If we're arguing, or if you're persuading me, or anything which could appear as though we're not already on the same side, together, then I will usually resent your touch. I also hate being touched if I sense that it's mainly to satisfy the other person--as in those groping, petting kinds of guys who try to play it off that they like you, but really they just need to be touching a girl.

If I call you a friend, you're welcome to put your arm around me. If I've shared negative emotion with you, you can hug me. If I consider you a close friend, we can snuggle on the sofa as we watch a movie.
I'm not particularly touch oriented (which is really a gross understatement.) I've never been touched much, by anyone. Outside of family members and greeting hugs/handshakes, I'm more or less looking at exploring touch for the first time. All of this will be rather interesting, as being touched often makes me very nervous, even the anticipation of touch. Thanks for the perspective and information. ;)



Yeah, it happens that someone doesn't notice the open door. When it does, I don't take it as a sign of rejection--just that he's not interested in me enough to notice or care that I've opened a door. I assume he's not interested in getting past the wall. I'm disappointed, but I'm not going to stop being his friend. If I sense things changing in the future, I may open the door again.

How long are the doors staying open, then? Do you have any tangible examples of how you would open a door, what you would expect, and how long you'd be leaving it open? I guess it's a different mindset. If I were to go around opening doors for people, I'd leave them open until I get they do something that indicates they need to be kept on the other side of the door. Or perhaps there isn't a difference, and I'm just more permissive, once I've decided to let someone in.


That may depend on the person. Unless I dislike someone, I don't really mind people seeing me cry--except when it obviously makes them uncomfortable, and then I just feel bad that my emotions have caused them discomfort. For me, it's a much bigger sign of trust if I look you in the eyes while I'm talking about emotional things. Like your INFJ, I don't mind crying and I'll be glad to sit next to a friend, but I won't look them in the eye until I'm 100% sure I can trust them in every single way. My eyes express too much; you can read too much of me through my eyes. I keep them averted for privacy.

That's reasonable. I didn't really see not being looked in the eyes as a positive sign, but historically speaking, I think crying in front of me was. She'd never done it before, this was the first time. She's said she doesn't like crying in front of others much at all.

I'll often look at her, and she'll look back, like she's wondering why I'm looking at her. Sometimes I'll look back the other way. Sometimes I'll just stare for a few seconds, smile, and then put my focus back where it was before. I guess that is to say, I do get the impression eye contact bothers her a little, at least on some level. Perhaps bother is too strong. I think I sense some eye-contact inhibition. I've wondered what she's thinking, when I just look into her eyes in silence, but I'm not entirely sure. I've also noticed that, in more stressed/tired moods, she'll break eye contact much more frequently, quickly, and be generally more avoidant of eye contact.

Is this probably a reflection of her feeling like her eyes say too much, that I'm reading too much for comfort, by looking in?

[abathur]

To me this seems like a good example of an INFJ beating herself up over the realisation of not having lived up to her own standards. In that case, this moment wasn't really a high in your relationship, but if you show her that you really didn't mind, it make her trust you more.

I guess it makes sense to see it that way. I think I was pretty understanding, and as comforting as I could be. Hell, really talking to her about it at all was a stretch on my part. The first couple days after I heard things coming back around I was pretty sick over it all. My gut was telling me to walk away. It probably would've been the last in a string of interpersonal failures in the past year. Crawling back into my hole and forsaking human company was looking like my best option.

But that's what my mind was saying to me. When I was doing the thinking, I was pretty sure she wouldn't have intentionally done anything to hurt me. I guess I really had to fight my pessimistic side to make up my mind to "confront" her about it, as it was essentially, in my mind, something that had to be resolved, or the friendship ended.

That said, I mind very much, if it keeps happening. If it doesn't, I'm quite the forgiver and forgetter. Probably too much so. At times, I have to make a concerted effort to stand up for myself, because I'm forgiving enough by nature that I'm prone to being walked on. Usually I DO stand up for myself, consciously, but it isn't my natural response. I have to spend a lot of time thinking, before I realize how much of an imposition someone is being on me, and that I need to put my foot down (I'll go ahead and forgive them, but break the relationship off if they don't/havent reformed.)

[faith]

On awkward silences: I'm with Toonia.


How long are the doors staying open, then? For the moment. Until I see whether he walks through or turns away. If he later knocks on that door, I'll probably be likely to open it.


Do you have any tangible examples of how you would open a door, what you would expect, and how long you'd be leaving it open? I guess it's a different mindset. It could be anything--simple or complicated. Here's a very simple real life example:

At one point, I was pretty close to a certain guy who was beginning to make bad choices in life. We'd been semiromantically involved, and his poor decisions made me very sad. Sometimes I felt partially responsible for him making those bad choices--I felt like I should have been able to prevent him from making those bad decisions. Now I knew that was a silly thing to feel and I felt guilty for feeling it. I knew it sprung from that stupid INFJ savior-complex we've all heard about, and I was embarrassed about it. I was very harsh on myself for feeling that way, and I locked those feelings up behind a wall.

At one point, in a conversation with an INTP friend, I admitted to him that I had those feelings. I said somewhat bitterly that I sometimes thought I'd be willing to marry the guy just to save him from his own stupidity, then I commented that that was the dumbest reason in the world to marry someone and completely against all I really believed about marriage. This was me opening the door. I even pointed it out and said (in a manner of speaking), "Look at that ugly thing over there. Isn't it horrid?" The INTP looked, wasn't startled or horrified, and sort of mulled the idea over by saying, "I don't know. There are certainly worse reasons for marrying someone."

In other words, he got it right. He didn't recoil. He didn't lecture. He didn't even sympathize. He looked at it objectively and was willing to consider for a moment that it might not be as bad as it looked. He treated it as a small thing, and thereby gave me tacit permission to do the same. After looking at it, he dismissed it. I'd let him in, and he'd proven trustworthy. I'm sure he wasn't aware that I was opening a door. He was just being himself--and as himself, he was trustworthy.

If he'd lectured me, I'd have acknowledged his right to do so (having invited him in) but I'd be much more reluctant to open the next door. I can lecture myself fine. If he'd freaked out, I'd have quietly shut down and become less personal; he'd not be invited in again. If he'd sympathized, I'd have appreciated it but still have felt badly about it. By not judging at all, he helped free me from judging myself so harshly. If he'd shrugged and said, "Yeah, that's really a bad idea," then gone on to talk of other things, I'd have known he wasn't interested in walking through the door.


I'll often look at her, and she'll look back, like she's wondering why I'm looking at her. Sometimes I'll look back the other way. Sometimes I'll just stare for a few seconds, smile, and then put my focus back where it was before. I guess that is to say, I do get the impression eye contact bothers her a little, at least on some level. Perhaps bother is too strong. I think I sense some eye-contact inhibition. I've wondered what she's thinking, when I just look into her eyes in silence, but I'm not entirely sure. I've also noticed that, in more stressed/tired moods, she'll break eye contact much more frequently, quickly, and be generally more avoidant of eye contact.

Is this probably a reflection of her feeling like her eyes say too much, that I'm reading too much for comfort, by looking in?

Eye contact is a big thing for me. I can learn so much about someone by looking at their eyes, and they can learn so much about me. When I'm getting to know someone with whom I feel a special connection, I look at him often. I'm figuring him out, reading his expressions, learning his face, testing the waters, enjoying his company. It feels dangerous when he catches my eye because I figure he can probably see to my soul. When I have the strength, I will sustain the look and let myself be vulnerable that way. When I don't have the strength (tired, stressed), I look away.

[C.J.Woolf]

At one point, in a conversation with an INTP friend, I admitted to him that I had those feelings. I said somewhat bitterly that I sometimes thought I'd be willing to marry the guy just to save him from his own stupidity, then I commented that that was the dumbest reason in the world to marry someone and completely against all I really believed about marriage. This was me opening the door. I even pointed it out and said (in a manner of speaking), "Look at that ugly thing over there. Isn't it horrid?" The INTP looked, wasn't startled or horrified, and sort of mulled the idea over by saying, "I don't know. There are certainly worse reasons for marrying someone."

In other words, he got it right. He didn't recoil. He didn't lecture. He didn't even sympathize. He looked at it objectively and was willing to consider for a moment that it might not be as bad as it looked. He treated it as a small thing, and thereby gave me tacit permission to do the same. After looking at it, he dismissed it. I'd let him in, and he'd proven trustworthy. I'm sure he wasn't aware that I was opening a door. He was just being himself--and as himself, he was trustworthy.

If he'd lectured me, I'd have acknowledged his right to do so (having invited him in) but I'd be much more reluctant to open the next door. I can lecture myself fine. If he'd freaked out, I'd have quietly shut down and become less personal; he'd not be invited in again. If he'd sympathized, I'd have appreciated it but still have felt badly about it. By not judging at all, he helped free me from judging myself so harshly. If he'd shrugged and said, "Yeah, that's really a bad idea," then gone on to talk of other things, I'd have known he wasn't interested in walking through the door.
If you had said that to me, I suppose I would have said:

"Yeah, it's a bad reason to marry someone. But you didn't do it, so I'd say you have your shit together."

I would have been interested in walking through the door, but I might bumble around a bit because I'm not accustomed to the surroundings.

Did I pass? ;)

[faith]

If you had said that to me, I suppose I would have said:

"Yeah, it's a bad reason to marry someone. But you didn't do it, so I'd say you have your shit together."

I would have been interested in walking through the door, but I might bumble around a bit because I'm not accustomed to the surroundings.

Did I pass? ;)

Hmm. You knocked over an expensive antique vase and tracked mud onto the carpet. ;)

Each person is different and most likely your response would be based on what you know of me and our friendship, etc. This response you've given without that knowledge wouldn't gain you many points. I would appreciate your willingness to look around and your attempts to make me feel better. On the whole, though, I'd feel as though you didn't know me at all. (Which is to be expected--since you don't.) All you've really done is repeat to me what I've told myself a hundred times, "Yep. That's ugly. Good thing you locked it up." <_< You're not hurting me, but you're not helping either. It feels like opening the door was sort of pointless. Basically, I'd feel like you weren't ready to come in. (Which, again, would be true since you don't know me and haven't gone through the other doors.) If I'd been silly enough to open this door for you in real life, and you'd responded that way, I'd gently usher you to the front door and we'd start all over getting to know one another from the beginning.

[C.J.Woolf]

Well, that was humbling. I thank you for explaining, though.

[faith]

Well, that was humbling. I thank you for explaining, though.

:(

I debated for a while whether to make you feel good or whether to explain my thoughts. I opted for the explanation because it's an INTP forum.

I don't think you should feel badly; your response is probably based on knowledge of other people, and that may be exactly what they would need to hear from you.

For me, it's not about giving The Correct Answer so much as it is understanding who I am as an individual--knowing the demons I fight and the fears I harbor. If someone cares enough to search for and discover all that, then they'll know even better than I what to say and what to do when a door is opened. Even if you had happened to choose the perfect thing to say to me, it would have been on accident (and therefore not significant) because you don't know me. It's not about a magic formula or a secret password--it's just about caring enough really to learn someone.

[stopharian]

:popcorn: :quickly scribbles notes:

[C.J.Woolf]

:(

I debated for a while whether to make you feel good or whether to explain my thoughts. I opted for the explanation because it's an INTP forum.
Good answer. :D I respect you for telling me straight. For me, ignorance is not bliss.

I guess this is one of those times when I just don't get it. I hate it when I don't get it, but it's not your fault. I just keep trying to learn and to understand.

Okay, I'm done hogging your thread.

[darlets]

At one point, in a conversation with an INTP friend, I admitted to him that I had those feelings. I said somewhat bitterly that I sometimes thought I'd be willing to marry the guy just to save him from his own stupidity, then I commented that that was the dumbest reason in the world to marry someone and completely against all I really believed about marriage. This was me opening the door. I even pointed it out and said (in a manner of speaking), "Look at that ugly thing over there. Isn't it horrid?" The INTP looked, wasn't startled or horrified, and sort of mulled the idea over by saying, "I don't know. There are certainly worse reasons for marrying someone."


As a general rule, I don't morally judge people, I'm a big believer in each to their own.

And INFJ in general beat themselves up enough with their own expectations, other people really shouldn't add to them. And I'd go as far to say that if you point out that you except them idiosyncrasies and all, that clocks you up major brownie points.

And while I'm in arrogant, state my opinion mode, most INFJ I know seem to fear losing friends because they don't live up to these expecations(their own).

[DevNull]

One of the "auditions" DevNull mentions is when I let someone see one of those things in myself that I'm ashamed of. I don't always make it clear what it is. Sometimes, when I sense that the time is right and the person is very trustworthy, I'll just open the door in the wall and watch what he does. (This is me offering him a stage, to use DevNull's metaphor.) If he comes in, good. If he looks around with interest, good. If he begins a conversation about what he sees, good. If he responds with understanding (patience, tenderness, fogiveness, etc.) when I casually bring his attention to that thing I'm ashamed of, he's just nailed the audition. Sometimes I don't tell him what it is that I'm ashamed of--I just let him see it so I can get his genuine reaction.

You can call this a test, I suppose... But "test" has a feeling of falseness to it--something constructed specifically to guage a response. When I open a door in a wall, I'm taking a definite risk and there's nothing false about it.

edit: If at any time he betrays me in some way--if he doesn't prove trustworthy--he will be summarily evicted from the castle or onion or whatever metaphor you prefer.

Thanks, Faith. I did not look forward to the task of explaining the mechanics of an INFJ "stage"... especially since I am winging it most of the time, spending more time excitedly exploring rather than studiously observing.

I am blessed with the fact that I am brutally honest both to myself and to my wife. Frankly, I do not have time to scheme or manipulate anything. Even if I did put any effort into orchestrating anything other than my true self then I am sure I would either quickly lose interest or I would goof it up bigtime.

I think our magic lies in the fact that my wife and I are both truly are interested in something bigger than ourselves. We do not have a clue as to what it is but we are interested in it greatly.

Side note: When I have a beef with my wife, I often tell her to wait until I repeat that grievance three times. The other two times are only me thinking out loud. The third time means I am stuck on it. She really adheres to my advice and always catches me on that third time. I love that about her. She never lets me wriggle away from that third time either.

[Toonia]

For me, it's not about giving The Correct Answer so much as it is understanding who I am as an individual--knowing the demons I fight and the fears I harbor... It's not about a magic formula or a secret password--it's just about caring enough really to learn someone.I really like these statements here. :) People who do have very exacting expectations of how others must respond could be using such a filtering process to keep everyone at a distance. Although expecting nothing in the responses of others can also keep everyone at a distance, and i tend towards that pole. After some of my experiences, i have resigned myself to focus on enjoying the process of figuring other people out, not expecting reciprocation (but enjoying it if it happens). My criteria for friendship is simple: if you are not trying to destroy or harm me, then i will be your friend. If you agitate or drain me in some way (or if you are stinky =)) ), then i will have to plan my time with you to not occur when my internal resources are low, but you will still have some time if you want it. During my development i was really shy, and spent the majority of my life observing people that i would just adore relating to, only to have nothing come of it. That pattern now has a certain comfort/familiarity for me, although i always prefer a connection.

I tend to be almost completely unconcerned with the manner of wording in communication, but focus on the intent behind it. I learned this the hard way because the people who smiled with the most warmth and repeatedly complimented me ended up being dishonest and exploitive. The people who were rather crusty in their communication, often saying the "wrong" thing hurting my feelings on the surface, ended up being my truest supporters and confidants. Nothing hurts me more than a compliment with gritted teeth. I can just feel the anger and desire to really slap me a good one placed in a context of artificial kindness and support. The bumbling, even abrasive, communicator who actually cares about me gets cut a lot of slack. Being hated for no explainable reason is the thing i fear most in others. When that happens, i simply run.

I do make errors in judgment, but my focus is on the actual intent. A person's genuiness or artificiality deep down is what i focus on and study and will eventually determine.

[Traveller]

Well abathur, what can I say?

I can speak from experience, as an INTP who has been married to an INFJ for almost twenty years, but I am also hesitant (typical INTP) because much of what I could say has already been said, is obvious, or is just not worth mentioning... I am also afraid I have a potentially narrow viewpoint, having been with just one partner for so many years (not that I am complaining!).

When we both met, back in 1984 :O we both had some big walls (or were both fat onions?) so there was a lot of give and take... I really struggled to express my emotions but at the same time discovered in her a complex, intriguing labyrinth of emotional 'layers'. This didn't put me off. On the contrary, it fascinated me. (it still does).

I can't speak for other INFJ's but my girl is very open to romantic approaches... This is good because I'm a hopeless romantic too (when I'm in the mood for it). I can therefore confirm that getting away somewhere together is a good place to start. It doesn't have to be an expensive exercise, but it'll help if you put a bit of 'thought' (and planning) into it. A quiet walk or drive... a romantic dinner (or pizza?) My wife loves unexpected surprises (even little one$). It can be a little tricky getting past those watchful eyes and keen intuition but that makes it so much the better if you pull it off. If you are able to communicate some of your feelings in writing (poetry), along with a small gift, so much the better

An interesting point worth noting (I believe someone else referred to this in a way too): Some of out greatest advances came just *after* a crisis. You may have already experienced this to some degree (when you both cried). We would get just so far in trying to work out an issue and then hit a huge barrier. Sometimes we'd get into an argument. Other times we'd both get very emotional. But it would often be just after this difficult 'breakthrough' that we would both let our guard down and have some of our best 'sharing' times (often followed by lots of :wub: ). At other times we would both back off and have revisit it at a later date. :(

Am I rambling a bit...? Put simply, be patient. Be as open and honest as you can be. Don't be afraid of the 'eyes'. Let her look as deeply into yours as you wish to look into hers. My wife has often said my most endearing assets were: The twinkle in my eye (when I looked at her) and my big.... arms. :) She said she felt safe when I would just hold her (and wait patiently for the emotional turmoil to work itself out).

Just my 2 cents worth. Feel free to correct me (INFJs) if you don't agree.

[jon]

...Nevermind. Read the quote wrong.

[Jennywocky]

After some of my experiences, i have resigned myself to focus on enjoying the process of figuring other people out, not expecting reciprocation (but enjoying it if it happens). My criteria for friendship is simple: if you are not trying to destroy or harm me, then i will be your friend. If you agitate or drain me in some way (or if you are stinky =)) ), then i will have to plan my time with you to not occur when my internal resources are low, but you will still have some time if you want it...

...I tend to be almost completely unconcerned with the manner of wording in communication, but focus on the intent behind it... my focus is on the actual intent. A person's genuiness or artificiality deep down is what i focus on and study and will eventually determine.

I found this all really interesting, since the parts I reposted here reflect my own approach as an INTP. I really have grown to care almost nothing about what a peson actually says; if I sense their motivations and heart is honest and pure, I can overlook a host of blunders and reach out, and if i sense their heart is slimy hidden under a pseudo-sugary glaze, I feel anger and don't get entangled.

(I won't even get into how I feel when I look at politicians, who seem to specialize in harboring ulterior motives and where even the ones with the right ideas seem to still be driven by ambition to some degree and not entirely selfless.)

But even with people who are false and/or "detestable," I'm still open to relating to them if they change in a way that permits real communication. Even if someone annoys me, I find it difficult to hold a grudge to the extent it would prevent me from treating them decently if I must interact with them.

Sometimes focusing so much on intent rather than details isn't great since sometimes "negative" details must be dealt with and hammered out, but my instinct is to key into the underlying person, not the externals.

(Is this sort of what you are saying too?)

The one major point of difference between your comments deals with the stuff I trimmed. You seem very tied to the emotional response and talking about adoring people but not having them respond, or being hurt by them on the surface but ended up being supported by them. You really focused on the faithful/betrayal aspect of things and how it left you feeling. I think this makes a lot of sense considering you are INFP.

As an INTP, I am aware of all those things and can even think in terms of them, but what I "feel" and respond to usually is more impersonal. Is the person being honest? Are they what they seem they are? What are their motivations? What are they trying to get out of me and others, or are they giving? There is a sort of "impersonal" assessment going on. The emotionally distressing, very personal stuff still impacts me and I can be hurt, sure, but I am viewing the people more broadly than just their personal interactions and/or responsibility towards me in the relationship. Whether I have been hurt or not doesn't seem to change my assessment of their character and sincerity.

I just found it really interesting to hear your viewpoint.

[Traveller]

...My experiences might make me less representational of all INFJ's, but do believe that touch is important communication for INFJ's in general, but tends to be selective. Socially there has been an interplay of isolation and intimacy which can be difficult to reconcile. The simplicity, but intensity of communicating through touch can be a deep relief. It is also an area of vulnerability. Cozying up in a big poofy blanket in a happy fun way is a good place to start.
This is an area that still baffles me to some degree in my INTP - INFJ relationship. Feel free to tell me to nick off if this is going to far :offtopic:
I grew up in a loving "touchy feely" home and received plenty these: :hug: My wife, on the other hand, grew up in a less expressive home. I have always put her 'reserve' down to her upbringing and was not aware that her INFJ(ness) could play a part in that.


I don't believe that INFJ's often display their sensuality in obvious ways and can often be overlooked. Two of the best ways to appeal to INFJ sensuality is to be lighthearted, childlike, funny, and cozy and/or to just tell the INFJ how you find her beautiful. See her as deeply sensual and much will be said with your eyes. It is also much easier for an INFJ to respond when they are already seen and don't have to prove or convince someone of anything intimate.
My wife is very uncomfortable with any kind of 'display' (most of the time) but this has no bearing on her willingness to be intimate. I have discovered the lighthearted approach and often tell her she is beautiful too (She IS!) so I can agree with this completely.


It is an irony that many INFJ's can be mistaken for not wanting to express physically, because i think it is quite the opposite. One other INFJ quality that makes it easier for others is that i don't think we generally mind if someone has an awkward moment. This might be a little twisted, but it's especially fun if a guy manages to be distracted by me enough to trip or fumble. That's a good compliment. :wub:
As a man, I have some basic wants/needs (surprised?). I have often thought how nice it would be if my wife were a little more physically expressive (outside the bedroom) but can see from your comments that she is likely just being true to type.

This is a bit of a revelation to me as I always thought it was due to her upbringing and have never read about this type of reserve in general MBTI info.

[cafe]

My informal observation leads me to believe that it's not unusual for INTPs to be "touch junkies."

Giving and receiving affection as touch is not something I do a lot by inclination. Touch is often unpleasant and distracting to me. A small violation if I'm not expecting it, I'm not in the mood for it, or someone I don't feel close to is doing it. Touch by the wrong person or at the wrong time can feel like a jarring assault. Right time and place and person, it's wonderful, though.

Edit: My family was reasonably affectionate. ie: Kissing and hugging to say hello, goodbye, goodnight. Pats on shoulder to express sympathy, etc.

I had to sort of train myself to show affection to my (touch junkie) INTP through touch. First I had to understand how important it was for him. Then, when I began to implement the gestures, his obvious pleasure rewarded and reinforced my behavior. Now scratching his back, kissing his ear, or running my fingers through his hair has mostly become second nature. Small effort, big pay-off, IMO.

[MacGuffin]

My informal observation leads me to believe that it's not unusual for INTPs to be "touch junkies."
I am the same way.

I DO NOT like it from most people, but the closer (intimate) I am to you the more I enjoy and even can crave it.

I don't like shaking hands of people I've just met however.

[abathur]

My informal observation leads me to believe that it's not unusual for INTPs to be "touch junkies."

Giving and receiving affection as touch is not something I do a lot by inclination. Touch is often unpleasant and distracting to me. A small violation if I'm not expecting it, I'm not in the mood for it, or someone I don't feel close to is doing it. Touch by the wrong person or at the wrong time can feel like a jarring assault. Right time and place and person, it's wonderful, though.

Edit: My family was reasonably affectionate. ie: Kissing and hugging to say hello, goodbye, goodnight. Pats on shoulder to express sympathy, etc.

I had to sort of train myself to show affection to my (touch junky) INTP through touch. First I had to understand how important it was for him. Then, when I began to implement the gestures, his obvious pleasure rewarded and reinforced my behavior. Now scratching his back, kissing his ear, or running my fingers through his hair has mostly become second nature. Small effort, big pay-off, IMO.

I don't know that I'm really a touch junkie, or if I will prove to be. I really long for the comfort of human touch, enough so that I've given serious consideration to asking more casual friends who also aren't in a relationship if they would be up for something along those lines, DESPITE being pretty sure they'll think I'm absofuckinglutely nuts for asking.

At the same time, I'm not a "touchy-feely" type person, either. I could say yes, based on the desire, but I don't know how that will pan out when I'm actually in a positition to try and satisfy it (perhaps it's just cumulative.)

That said, if someone who I know is very physically demonstrative is touching me, it doesn't mean much. If I know someone who isn't physically demonstrative and they put a hand on me, that would mean a lot.

[faith]

I think you're nicer than I am, Toonia. I enjoy being friendly with almost anyone, but to call someone my friend is to let them into the more inaccessible onion rings. Even if someone is nice and well-meaning, I don't do that very often. I've found that well-meaning but stupid people can hurt me just as much as those who are intentionally unkind. I don't blame them as much, but it hurts just the same so I limit their access to the more vulnerable areas.

It's interesting to hear from the other INFJs regarding touch. For casual acquaintances, I agree that I'm not very touchy. For good friends, though, I really enjoy the affection communicated through touch. It's something I actually miss most of the time because my friends don't seem to use touch as much as I would enjoy. I can't imagine being reluctant to use it with a significant other, or even having to tell myself, "Okay, now I need to show some physical affection."

[Jennywocky]

I really like these statements here. :) People who do have very exacting expectations of how others must respond could be using such a filtering process to keep everyone at a distance. Although expecting nothing in the responses of others can also keep everyone at a distance, and i tend towards that pole. After some of my experiences, i have resigned myself to focus on enjoying the process of figuring other people out, not expecting reciprocation (but enjoying it if it happens). My criteria for friendship is simple: if you are not trying to destroy or harm me, then i will be your friend. If you agitate or drain me in some way (or if you are stinky =)) ), then i will have to plan my time with you to not occur when my internal resources are low, but you will still have some time if you want it. During my development i was really shy, and spent the majority of my life observing people that i would just adore relating to, only to have nothing come of it. That pattern now has a certain comfort/familiarity for me, although i always prefer a connection.

I might be INTP, but this is something I could (and have) written.

While this attitude could run across "types," I score very high (not highest, but so high it warrants mentioning) on Sensitive personality type in the Oldham system, which is comparable to MBTI INFJ type.

I don't know if I would use the word "adore" (and if I recall correctly, I have seen you use this word a few times before in other posts). Maybe "fascinate" would be the INTP equivalent of the INFJ "adore" for me.


I tend to be almost completely unconcerned with the manner of wording in communication, but focus on the intent behind it. I learned this the hard way because the people who smiled with the most warmth and repeatedly complimented me ended up being dishonest and exploitive. The people who were rather crusty in their communication, often saying the "wrong" thing hurting my feelings on the surface, ended up being my truest supporters and confidants. Nothing hurts me more than a compliment with gritted teeth. I can just feel the anger and desire to really slap me a good one placed in a context of artificial kindness and support. The bumbling, even abrasive, communicator who actually cares about me gets cut a lot of slack. Being hated for no explainable reason is the thing i fear most in others. When that happens, i simply run.

The exact same thing with me, except substitute more impersonal/philosophical terminology to replace your more emotionally descriptive text here.

I know I've reacted poorly in some places on INTPc where I sensed that people had attitudes of scorn/disdain for each other, regardless of the content of their posts. The same level of disagreement, without the disdain, would not bother me much.


I do make errors in judgment, but my focus is on the actual intent. A person's genuiness or artificiality deep down is what i focus on and study and will eventually determine.

here's an interesting philosophical question. I believe in attitude over behavior/content -- I want to know motivation and evaluate behavior/people on their motivations.

But are we our desires, or are we our intentions, or are we what we actually choose to DO? What defines "who we are?"

I guess, if I had to describe it, it's the hypocrisy between motivation and behavior that troubles me most. I perceive motivation and weigh a person on that, and also look at what they choose to do, with that motivation in place. And then I compare the two and see how they reflect on each other.

(Rambling now, sorry... was reading some stuff this week that stressed the importance of behavior, as well as motivation...)

[Oculus Sinister]

I think you're nicer than I am, Toonia. I enjoy being friendly with almost anyone, but to call someone my friend is to let them into the more inaccessible onion rings. Even if someone is nice and well-meaning, I don't do that very often. I've found that well-meaning but stupid people can hurt me just as much as those who are intentionally unkind. I don't blame them as much, but it hurts just the same so I limit their access to the more vulnerable areas.

It's interesting to hear from the other INFJs regarding touch. For casual acquaintances, I agree that I'm not very touchy. For good friends, though, I really enjoy the affection communicated through touch. It's something I actually miss most of the time because my friends don't seem to use touch as much as I would enjoy. I can't imagine being reluctant to use it with a significant other, or even having to tell myself, "Okay, now I need to show some physical affection."


What do you climb? 5.14 d? 5.12? 5.10?

[faith]

What do you climb? 5.14 d? 5.12? 5.10?

I don't know for sure. I can't find ratings for the places I usually climb. I'm still a beginner--from what others have told me, I think I'm generally on a 5.9. Maybe 5.10 if I'm having a good day.

[Tayshaun]

Interesting! In France (I never climbed in the U.S.), the rating system seems slightly different. We don't use a second number, but a letter instead. If you are not an expert but doing pretty well 5.9. and 5.10. would roughly correspond to 5C, 6A.

[C.J.Woolf]

I worked with a rock climber; I learned from him that 5.10 was once considered the most difficult route humanly possible. Now the highest degree of difficulty achieved is 5.13 or 5.14. Oops.

[Tayshaun]

I worked with a rock climber; I learned from him that 5.10 was once considered the most difficult route humanly possible. Now the highest degree of difficulty achieved is 5.13 or 15.14. Oops.

Ok. It looks like the decimals number corresponds to the first number in France.
Professionals usually climb at 8X or 9X which seems to correlate with what you just posted.

[darlets]

There's five systems used around the world, outlined at the bottom of this page
link (http://www.mountaindays.net/content/articles/gradesrock.php)

[The Ninth Ninja]

I only know 1 INFj and yep they are putting up a wall. Maybe I've said something to upset her. :shrugs-shoulders:
The weird thing is though, I quite like the fact that I don't have to talk to them just to make them feel comfortable, ie they're totally okay with silence. I admire that quality at least... hmm is this camaraderie amongst I's?

[bprettyinpink03]

As an INFJ male this is so true with me. I HATE fake people who smile in your face, and can always sense fake, manipaluative people out, and ALWAYS brush them aside. Even though I'm a J, I don't judge those who are authentic about their lifestyle. It's the fakers and posers that ABSOULUTELY piss me off!! I try to avoid these people like the plague.


OMgosh, this is so absolutely true to me as well!

[Hustler]

Why do I find INFJs irritating? Why do they seem so disingenuous, manipulative, and deeply sinister to me? Most everyone here sees them as kind-hearted and good and whatever, but I see them as controlling and evil.

[Toonia]

Why do I find INFJs irritating? Why do they seem so disingenuous, manipulative, and deeply sinister to me? Most everyone here sees them as kind-hearted and good and whatever, but I see them as controlling and evil.We often see in others what is more true in ourselves. ;P

btw: don't ever underestimate the value of "whatever".

[Rhu]

Why do I find INFJs irritating? Why do they seem so disingenuous, manipulative, and deeply sinister to me? Most everyone here sees them as kind-hearted and good and whatever, but I see them as controlling and evil.

My only personal experience with an INFJ woman left me with the same feeling.

I still wonder where she is and what she's doing sometimes, though.

[Toonia]

OMgosh, this is so absolutely true to me as well!If i think someone is playing games or trying to manipulate me (if it isn't just a humorous exchange), i run away from them. I have left several jobs for that very reason. I find INFJ's to be very direct in their foundational communication, sometimes overlaid with shyness and subtlety. From all my experience and understanding, INFJ's value peace as paramount. Antagonism makes me sick. My predisposition towards empathy (which is good and bad) makes me experience all the negativity in an environment whether directed at me or not. This is because i view negativity at a certain distance that allows me to see how little difference there is between me and the person being rejected. The reasonable conclusions is that i too would be rejected if a few small pieces are moved in the horrid game of social dominance and antagonism.

I worked in one environment where, whenever i would try to address an important issue, the reply would always be flattery with gritted teeth. I longed for honesty so deeply, but could feel the undercurrent of anger, entitlement, and competition. One time when preparing for an important presentation, my heart stopped beating for at least fifteen seconds, and the room started turning grey. I had constant headaches because there was no avenue through which to achieve peace. I left and now work with special needs children whose honesty and sincerity feed my soul every day by reminding me there is peace, innocence, and strength in the world after all.

[Hustler]

We often see in others what is more true in ourselves. ;P

This is a great example of what I find irritating about INFJs. Just what the hell is that supposed to mean! Tell me, when you search me, what do you see in me that is more true in yourself? Would you say that you dislike INFJs even more than I do? No? What then?


btw: don't ever underestimate the value of "whatever".

Don't tell me what values I should have. Thanks.

[Toonia]

My only personal experience with an INFJ woman left me with the same feeling.

I still wonder where she is and what she's doing sometimes, though.
To Hustler and Rhu, do you know these people are INFJ's for certain? Or did you have an idea about it based on other information? I'm sure there are horrid INFJ's just as any personality type, but almost everyone in my family is one, including me, my sister-in-law, brother, mother, and my sister is an INFP. I've gotten to know several online. They are the kindest people i know and make my short list of people i trust. On intuitive central, i did run across some people with issues of narcissism whose type was listed as INFJ, but felt their issues extended a ways beyond personality categorization.

[Hustler]

To Hustler and Rhu, do you know these people are INFJ's for certain? Or did you have an idea about it based on other information? I'm sure there are horrid INFJ's just as any personality type, but almost everyone in my family is one, including me, my sister-in-law, brother, mother, and my sister is an INFP. I've gotten to know several online. They are the kindest people i know and make my short list of people i trust. On intuitive central, i did run across some people with issues of narcissism whose type was listed as INFJ, but felt their issues extended a ways beyond personality categorization.

Let's just assume for the sake of this discussion that everyone at INTPc who claims to be an INFJ is an INFJ. Let's also assume that my ability to type those I know is practically flawless, so everyone I've thought was an INFJ was an INFJ. In other words, let's assume my disdain for INFJs is very accurately directed, and that I dislike them for completely unique reasons, which are different than the reasons I dislike, say, ENFJs or ISFJs or INFPs or INTJs.

Now please answer the questions in my previous post.

[Toonia]

This is a great example of what I find irritating about INFJs. Just what the hell is that supposed to mean! Tell me, when you search me, what do you see in me that is more true in yourself? Would you say that you dislike INFJs even more than I do? No? What then?You just attacked INFJ's with rather serious accusations, so i suggested mirroring it back. Everything i say is based on "if the shoe fits". Maybe you are all the things you accuse INFJ's of being, and maybe you are not. I don't know you Hustler, and don't claim to. What fragmented impressions i see in you are: complexity, presenting only certain layers of yourself, enjoying certain types of social games and dominance, feeling very offended by intrusion and judgement - perhaps deliberately hiding behind a constructed persona to eliminate that possibility.

And yes, i just described certain aspects of myself (except the social dominance which i avoid) and it may have as little to do with you as your description of INFJ's has to do with me. Go ahead and be irritated. It's good for me as i am continually growing my thicker skin.


Don't tell me what values I should have. Thanks."Dont' underestimate the value of whatever"? That was apparently a failed attempt at humor, but seriously, whatever.

[Hustler]

You just attacked INFJ's with rather serious accusations, so i suggested mirroring it back.

The difference is that I don't irritate myself, and I don't have a lot of the extremely faulty qualities that I see in INFJs. INFJs and INTPs are very different! I think we're better, and I suspect it's the INFJ shortcomings -- those things that make you inferior to us -- which I find so irritating. In the spirit of this thread, of getting to know the INFJ, I would like to enumerate these problematic elements of the INFJ personality so that I can better manipulate INFJs such that those aspects of their personality remain concealed and don't come out to irritate me.


Everything i say is based on "if the shoe fits". Maybe you are all the things you accuse INFJ's of being, and maybe you are not. I don't know you Hustler, and don't claim to. What fragmented impressions i see in you are: complexity, presenting only certain layers of yourself, enjoying certain types of social games and dominance, feeling very offended by intrusion and judgement - perhaps deliberately hiding behind a constructed persona to eliminate that possibility.

This isn't the "Getting to know Hustler" thread. I know myself fine, and I think people here can easily distinguish me from an INFJ. I'm trying to get to know INFJs, and all you're doing is deflecting. Are you going to be of service and explain to me why it is that your personality type annoys me? I have ideas on the subject, obviously, but I really wanted to go straight to the source and get to know the INFJs a little more by having other people, some INFJs included, share their thoughts or, if they must, feelings on the matter.


And yes, i just described certain aspects of myself (except the social dominance which i avoid) and it may have as little to do with you as your description of INFJ's has to do with me. Go ahead and be irritated. It's good for me as i am continually growing my thicker skin.

That's more like it, except obviously the things I find in you which are similar to me are going to be less likely to be irritating than the things which make us different are. I don't want to be irritated. I don't come to INTPc to be irritated by INFJs, but it seems to happen all the time. Why is that? What can I do to get to know the INFJs better so that I can then use this information to influence them into less annoying patterns of participation here?


"Dont' underestimate the value of whatever"? That was apparently a failed attempt at humor, but seriously, whatever.

Maybe the INFJ sense of humor is one of the things which I find irritating.

[Rhu]

To Hustler and Rhu, do you know these people are INFJ's for certain?
She was an INFJ by testing and a heartless, manipulative woman by her own admission. I should have heeded her warning. The whole "Golly! A girl is giving her undivided attention to me!" gets me every time, though.


I'm sure there are horrid INFJ's just as any personality type...
Right. I never claimed to have a sufficient sample size to work off of--and though I've noticed palpable softness in the INFJs here, I still see flickers of light glinting off the edges of knives in the shadows.


[sap]
It's wonderful that you've had pleasant and encouraging experiences. However, your experience isn't my own--your means of interfacing with people, your desires in friendship and communication--most of your actions and reactions differ from mine. What may seem plain honesty to your thought could be convoluted illogic to my own.


On intuitive central, i did run across some people with issues of narcissism whose type was listed as INFJ, but felt their issues extended a ways beyond personality categorization.
Indeed. Wicked people are everywhere, and I am not the least of them all. I would take on the wickedness that is plain to my eyes, though, before extending my hand again into the dark.

[stopharian]

A mentallic eh Rhu? seems like a rare skill set for an intp, maybe you yourself are an infj

[Rhu]

A mentallic eh Rhu? seems like a rare skill set for an intp, maybe you yourself are an infj

Nonsense. I've just got a long memory, an overactive imagination, and an occasionally reliable intuition.

[Toonia]

The difference is that I don't irritate myself, and I don't have a lot of the extremely faulty qualities that I see in INFJs. INFJs and INTPs are very different! I think we're better, and I suspect it's the INFJ shortcomings -- those things that make you inferior to us -- which I find so irritating.Do you think INFJ's consider themselves superior to INTP's? That is one likely assumption to produce a statement like yours. Although, it's clear enough on this forum that they don't. The ones here all admire INTP's. Or is that what is irritating to you?


This isn't the "Getting to know Hustler" thread. I know myself fine, and I think people here can easily distinguish me from an INFJ. I'm trying to get to know INFJs, and all you're doing is deflecting. First you are annoyed that i didn't answer your question and now you are annoyed that i have? While in my lemon bath, i was trying to figure out a better way to answer your question with more distance, rather than using our real-time interaction as a demonstration.

Each person only has their own mind as a point of reference. It is human nature to project our own motivations onto the actions of others. We can never know another person absolutely and so filling in the blanks with what is known in our own mind is our best solution. It is for this reason that we tend to project ourselves onto others. Other factors play into is as well, and it's a complex process.


Are you going to be of service and explain to me why it is that your personality type annoys me? I think it is because INFJ's are unlikely to mirror your irritation. You are presenting many good reasons for me to respond with a feeling of irritation: "INTP's are superior, are annoyed by INFJ's flaws, etc." I'm okay with this - especially since i just got out of a nice lemon soaked tub. :) Actually, if it were a personal relationship i would not be okay with it, but this exchange has a different quality. The overt style of attack should irritate me, and for that reason it feels like a test. Getting someone to lose control and get angry is a good way to unmask them. I don't want to play that game and be manipulated, etc. I do get angry sometimes, but have learned the hard way how to detach myself when the attack is unwarranted.

I think an INTP could find an INFJ annoying because of the issue of intrusion. INFJ's do look into deeper aspects of people minds and behaviors than the average person. Their interest in the emotional dynamics of people could also be irritating, since this is of little interest to many INTP's.


That's more like it, except obviously the things I find in you which are similar to me are going to be less likely to be irritating than the things which make us different are. I don't want to be irritated. I don't come to INTPc to be irritated by INFJs, but it seems to happen all the time. Why is that? What can I do to get to know the INFJs better so that I can then use this information to influence them into less annoying patterns of participation here?The reason i am confused is because what you described as irritating in INFJ's are qualities i do not possess. I do not consider myself manipulative, and the other things you listed. If you are irritated by those qualities and project that onto me, then you will simply have to live out your frustration. What can i do?

Also, the reason i am engaging in this discussion with you is because you are different from me, a little intimidating yes, but there are holes in my ability to perceive you, and i am curious. I have trouble relating to rejecting what is different because it fascinates me. It's how i spend the majority of my socializing time.

[Toonia]

Indeed. Wicked people are everywhere, and I am not the least of them all. I would take on the wickedness that is plain to my eyes, though, before extending my hand again into the dark.In that we are the same. It's difficult for me to reconcile just how reassuring someone can be and then how cruel. It has happened to everyone i love. That is the thing, most INFJ's i know married horrid, sadistic, manipulative people because they assumed everyone was nice. (except me - i married an intp :) )

I did accidently test people until i realized it. I would present myself as more vulnerable than i am. Those who would venture to take advantage were the people i knew to run away from. Unfortantely living like bait is not worth the effort, so i have learned to stop. One reason i come here to "irritate" the INTP's, is because it is my free assertiveness training.

[Hustler]

Each person only has their own mind as a point of reference. It is human nature to project our own motivations onto the actions of others. We can never know another person absolutely and so filling in the blanks with what is known in our own mind is our best solution. It is for this reason that we tend to project ourselves onto others. We see in others what is more true of ourselves. We also have experience and impression from others to add to solving the problem of why people act, and this may have little or nothing to do with personal motivation. In short, it's a complex process.

This hinges on the assumption that there are blanks which must be filled in when it comes to finding annoying things about INFJs. In actuality, I am able to find plenty of reasons to be irritated by INFJs without resorting to this. They take care of supplying me with more than enough. The trouble is that they are largely instinctive and intuitively-discerned and difficult to translate into words, so, since INFJs presumably know themselves better than I know them, perhaps they could assist with this. That way, I don't have to fill in any blanks or make any assumptions.


I think it is because INFJ's are unlikely to mirror your irritation. You are presenting many good reasons for me to respond with a feeling of irritation: "INTP's are superior, are annoyed by INFJ's flaws, etc." I'm okay with this - especially since i just got out of a nice lemon soaked tub. :)

Yes, overwhelming subjectivity. Good point. Just so you know, it would still be the case that INTPs are superior to INFJs even if you had just tripped over a garden hose and fallen into a mud puddle. Would you still be okay with it then?


Actually, if it were a personal relationship i would not be okay with it, but this exchange has a different quality. The overt style of attack should irritate me, and for that reason it feels like a test. Getting someone to lose control and get angry is a good way to unmask them. I don't want to play that game and be manipulated, etc.

Okay, so what's a better way to manipulate you? I could go on the attack at someone else, someone who seems weak and in need of protection, and I'm sure the INFJs would get mad and rush to protect the innocent bystander. But, I don't want to have to sacrifice someone to get the INFJs riled up and angry to the point that they don't enjoy their time here anymore. I'd rather they just took the direct disdain for what it is rather than forcing me to use such dastardly tactics because they think it's some sort of game or test. You've already failed all the tests and you guys are terrible at games.


I think an INTP could find an INFJ annoying because of the issue of intrusion. INFJ's do look into deeper aspects of people minds and behaviors than the average person. Their interest in the emotional dynamics of people could also be irritating, since this is of little interest to many INTP's.

Yes! Another great example. This is really getting somewhere. INFJs somehow think they're smart and able to look deeply into my mind and behaviors but, in fact, they're generally just deluded. I have found a lot of INFJs to be among the "almost smart" camp. You know, the type of person who is aware he is more intelligent than the masses, but isn't aware he's still down the totem poll from genuine intellectuals quite a ways. And, he acts like he's incredibly insightful and everyone is so dumb. These people really are infuriating, far worse than the masses themselves. I think a lack of critical analysis and an inability to be objective leads INFJs to this frame of mind. I think this is also related to why you think others go around and fill in the blanks and project elements of themselves onto others. I'm sure everyone does that to an extent, but I'm just as sure that INFJs do it more than most. Again, it stems from their curious lack of insight about how they actually relate to the greater whole despite being intuitives. The self-absorption is just so overwhelming. Perhaps this is a good example of the Ni-Ne divide, and why Ne people are superior 'big picture' thinkers than Ni people.


The reason i am confused is because what you described as irritating in INFJ's are qualities i do not possess. I do not consider myself manipulative, and the other things you listed. If you are irritated by those qualities and project that onto me, then you will simply have to live out your frustration. What can i do?

Well, I'm not going to engage in any personal attacks, so I'll just keep this discussion about INFJs in general. INFJs aren't overtly manipulative, and most of the time, they probably aren't even aware they're being manipulative. At least with NTs, the manipulation is acknowledged and accepted, stripping away at least the element of hypocrisy which is part and parcel to the trademark INFJ manipulation.


Also, the reason i am engaging in this discussion with you is because you are different from me, a little intimidating yes, but there are holes in my ability to perceive you, and i am curious. I have trouble relating rejecting what is different because it fascinates me. It's how i spend the majority of my socializing time.

I wonder if you're being honest here. I'm inclined to think not.

[bergenski]

Why do I find INFJs irritating? Why do they seem so disingenuous, manipulative, and deeply sinister to me? Most everyone here sees them as kind-hearted and good and whatever, but I see them as controlling and evil.
Because of that classic NF combined with their J aggressiveness?

[Toonia]

This hinges on the assumption that there are blanks which must be filled in when it comes to finding annoying things about INFJs. In actuality, I am able to find plenty of reasons to be irritated by INFJs without resorting to this. They take care of supplying me with more than enough. The trouble is that they are largely instinctive and intuitively-discerned and difficult to translate into words, so, since INFJs presumably know themselves better than I know them, perhaps they could assist with this. That way, I don't have to fill in any blanks or make any assumptions.


And, he acts like he's incredibly insightful and everyone is so dumb. These people really are infuriating, far worse than the masses themselves.

The degree to which you describe INFJ's as being inferior is the same degree you describe them as assuming they are superior. The main question is whether or not INFJ's think that way. My experience and information gives me no reason to think that INFJ's assume they are better than others, any moreso than other personality types. If anything the opposite tends to be true. Consider that many INFJ's reading your comments may already feel flawed and annoying to others. Also, they tend to really admire INTP's in particular. I know that i do. This is because the INTP does have clarity of thought, and many behave consistently. I wouldn't come here, and i doubt other INFJ's would either, if they didn't admire the INTP alot. More than half of them married INTP's as well.

I feel somewhat frustrated because you have presented me with how annoying INFJ's are, and i don't know what you want from me. If the main issue is INFJ's feeling superior and you want to hear me as an INFJ describe my flaws, i can list a few, but some are too personal. My thinking can get tangled and useless when subjected to too much stress and negativity, I get too attached to people, i get too obsessed on certain ideas, i have anxiety, and flailing muscle spasms in the night, i spend too much money on beads, and feel rejected too easily. I already know that some people feel very annoyed towards me and sometimes i don't understand why. I did have some friends from high school tell me they thought i was judging them when they goofed around in the locker room, when actually i was feeling like a dumbshit for not being able to think of anything funny to say. Can't say how much of this applies to all INFJ's as i have some reservations about all conclusions based on types. I tend to agree with the idea that these types are a very small part of who a person is, and drawing positive or negative conclusions about any type may present more problems than answers. What do you think?

[bergenski]

My thinking can get tangled and useless when subjected to too much stress and negativity...i get too obsessed on certain ideas, i have anxiety, and flailing muscle spasms in the night...and feel rejected too easily. I already know that some people feel very annoyed towards me and sometimes i don't understand why. I did have some friends from high school tell me they thought i was judging them when they goofed around in the locker room, when actually i was feeling like a dumbshit for not being able to think of anything funny to say.
I think we have judged you too harshly.

[bergenski]

I have found a lot of INFJs to be among the "almost smart" camp. You know, the type of person who is aware he is more intelligent than the masses, but isn't aware he's still down the totem poll from genuine intellectuals quite a ways. And, he acts like he's incredibly insightful and everyone is so dumb.

Well, that's just great. I'm an INFJ. The confusion!

[abathur]

I don't know how you present yourself IRL, hustler, but I always pick up a degree of showmanship, online. Not that it doesn't amuse and entertain me a good bit, but perhaps, if this behavior escapes the online realm, INFJs are reacting to the same?

/shrug

[Lurker]

What can get to me about INFJs is that dealing with them is like participating in the Emotion Olympics. I always sense that they suspect me of something, are trying to draw something out of me, or are reading more into what I say than they should. I constantly feel like I'm being evaluated in some mysterious way that I don't understand - and that I have very little say in the matter.

My emotions are fairly simple and straightforward, and they change easily. Most of the time, I'm on an even keel with no particular feelings running through me, just existing and not feeling much of anything. INFJs believe this is a front. Well, it's not. Maybe there isn't an emotional brew within me just waiting to be discovered - and that's FINE. INFJs seem to take this as emotional shallowness, and I find that offensive.

If I were addressing an INFJ directly, this is what I would say:

- Lighten up. Everything in life isn't a therapy session.
- Please, please just relax!
- Quit trying to pick me apart. You're invading my space by doing that, and that drives me away.
- Realize that you don't set a Golden Standard of Purity for everyone else to follow.

[Hustler]

I feel somewhat frustrated because you have presented me with how annoying INFJ's are, and i don't know what you want from me.

Don't worry, little INFJ, you've done a good job. You get teh
http://www.intpcentral.com/uploads/e_gold.jpg

[Eileen]

Why do I find INFJs irritating? Why do they seem so disingenuous, manipulative, and deeply sinister to me? Most everyone here sees them as kind-hearted and good and whatever, but I see them as controlling and evil.

Eh. I'll play a little here.

Disingenuous - patently untrue for me, because I am frustratingly incapable of pretending to be something that I am not. In fact, in the last six months, I've learned that I can't be anything but emotionally direct, even if I think that something else is what somebody else needs or wants from me.

Manipulative - I have a tendency here. When I was more immature, I was likely to use manipulation. But it is distasteful to me, and I genuinely make an effort to reject this tendency in myself. And I can and do reject it because it goes against my values. When I feel myself pulled toward this bad habit, I stop and self-talk until my desire goes away.

Controlling - I have this tendency. I almost always reject it. It's an internal conflict. I want things to go my way because duh, my way is best. However, I don't like the idea of controlling anyone, and furthermore, when I feel like I'm pressuring anybody to do anything, I feel totally freaked out and upset by that.

Evil/Deeply sinister - I know my dark sides and they are numerous and I am ashamed of them. I think I can be sinister, but not deeply so--certainly not on the basis of my type. Anybody can be sinister.

I don't know about other INFJs. I will say that I think we're driven by our values and our visions; if someone's value/vision differs from mine, she might be "disingenuous, manipulative, and deeply sinister."

Hustler, you seem to feel very much a victim here at INTPc, subject to be annoyed by our presence (predicating that you cannot control your own emotional responses and impulses). There are ways around having to have so much contact with us. VBulletin does have a blocking feature. Block us all. We won't cry--I won't, anyway. Sometimes people will quote us in our moments of shining brilliance, and you might have to be exposed to INFJ rays, but other than that, you'll be INFJ-free. But if you want to bitch and moan and complain about how we JUST WON'T GO AWAY, I think by now it's clear that this particular strategy is ineffective and only more likely to elicit INFJ responses. Use your head, man. You apparently find it to be one of your stronger attributes.

[demagogic_schizoid]

I can't talk for all INFJ's. I know two, I will write about them in a rambling and illogical fashion, and see if it adds anything:

My brother and my cousin both tested INFJ. They are both very determined and individualistic people, they are both mature for their age (brother is 17 cousin is 15) with a lot of interest in politics and other mature topics. They are both quite "conservative" in their outlook, I suppose a little moralistic, and I guess many INTP's would find these two people impossible to relate to because they do not really adopt a consistent position on anything, they simply react against anyone acting in a way which offends them - being a "smart-ass" is part of this, so I don't think they would like that many INTP's. They also do not really have a notion of progress or of a bigger picture - my brother hates scientists and science, for no real reason, but because they are explaining things he can't understand, he hates them, he thinks they are lying tohim, that they shouldn't play God, that humans should stay close to the earth, live in a simple way, that men should be men, women should be women etc. I could see my brother being a christian save for the fact that he questions everything and does not seem to take anyone seriously who actually believes they know the "truth".

Both my cousin and my brother tend to keep their views on an issue quiet, but when they do argue them, they argue them very passionately and if you appear to be disrepespectful to their views they will be furious. Also, they will say "I believe this..." or "I feel that..." and if you attempt to use logic against their sacred values this will be seen as heresy, as a personal insult.

They are both very obsessive, but very loyal, to the things and people they love. They are never two-faced or chamaleon like, they will defend their tastes in any company - for example my cousin, a 15 y/oin a small town in Argentina, is a fanatical fan of The Velvet underground, of the Manchester scene of the 1980's, of certain novelists I haven't heard of - this means she doesn't really share any interests with the kids her age and doesn't really have any close friends. My brother is madly into some bands like System of a Down and Rancid, if I say a bad word about these he will hate it. He is very popular because he is a good athlete, and because when he was younger he used to go to school with long hair whilst no-one else did, but now long-hair is cool. Also he started a football team on his own, and they actually won their league and are still going strong 4 years later. At first people took the piss out of him at school, but he didn't care, he had complete self-confidence, and now his friends look up to him and copy his style. I respect all of this very much. On the flip side, my brother doesn't respect weakness and I know he has been quite harsh to many people who he sees as below him - a "food chain" is very much part of his world. He does want power, he has told me himself, and he does use friends to build a power-base - one which is growing. My brother also is a bit too fascinated by people like Hitler and Stalin.

Another fact - both are mad on routine. My cousin connects to the internet at the same time every Sunday night, and we put the world to rights. My brother needs to eat the same food, wear the same clothes, get up at the same time etc. - he doesn't like to experiment.

So why do I like them so much? For me, it's the sense of humour. Both of these people are like me in that they love observing the world and laughing at all the absurd things, and not being bound in their humour by morality or tradition or respect for anyone or anything. This may seem at odds with the rest of their personality, but maybe this is where they let off steam. Both of them can see the same things in their minds as me, and will just get what I am saying without me needing to explain it or without it having to make sense. I can't speak highly enough of this attribute in a person. With both my brother and my cousin, we just act out comedy acts, impromptu, for hours sometimes, we do tend to live in a fantasy world and sometimes maybe it gets in the way of real conversation. But I can see them for the first time in a year, and they will immediately be laughing with me within 5 minutes. I love this in them, the ability to always find a humorous side to things, the ability to take humour to new levels. I think Parker and Stone, the creators of South Park, are INFJ, because like my brother and my cousin (Paul and Naty) they have a moralistic, traditionalist, angry side to their humour as well.

Another good thing is that these two people are the most loyal I know. They place incredibly high value on integrity and although they often seem unexpressive, their families, their home, their country, (both are against overt patriotism but both defend their country to the death when around foreigners!), their football team, their bands, their heroes, are everything to them, and it is nice to know that a family memeber will never let you down.

So that's my view ont he two people I know who test INFJ. I respect them both immensely, maybe despite, or maybe because of, the fact that they are irrational, reactionary and moralistic. :)

[Toonia]

I've been looking into this whole issue more, reading posts by INFJ's who have really upset people, etc. Let me attempt to define what i see happening. When certain people who claim to be INFJ have an arrogant disposition, they tend to be very passive aggressive towards people who insult them. These folks take a self-righteous position of only trying to help, when they are actually trying to invalidate the other person. I have not knowingly experienced this from an INFJ among my friends and family, but did date a guy who communicated that way. Now i'm wondering if he would test INFJ? That would be too trippy, dang! He would leave me places to have to walk a mile or more home. Next time i saw him, he would want to discuss my apparent issues of hostility towards him. It involves intense patronization like suggesting someone research what morales are as an attempt to help inform them. So perhaps a mean infj could be quite an invalidator. My personal experience has been invalidation and cohersion from ST's more often, but i don't think they always expect it to cut as deep or as long as it does. Who knows?

That self-righteous position is an effective way to keep people at a distance. The hardest thing to face in life is the unpredictable behavior of other people. Some people solve the problem by acting hostile and eliciting a consistently negative response from others, some people withdraw and are consistently overlooked, some use flattery, some people claim to have everyone figured out so no one can surprise them. In the end we all get surprised and hurt. I don't know a way around it.

Here is one of the best books about invalidating behaviors. I know an INFJ married to an ISTJ and it is the ISTJ that horrifically invalidates him every single day of his life. Berating him for paying 75 cents to ride the bus home when sick, not "allowing" anyone to ask about his sleep and health issues, etc. He keeps seeing her as a little girl and makes great efforts to understand her psychological issues. That is just one example of the infj's i know. Here's the book:

Nasty People: how to stop being hurt by them without becoming one of them. by Jay Carter.
It is short and exactly on target.
http://images.barnesandnoble.com/images/9980000/9984853.gif

[demagogic_schizoid]

At the end of the day, the INFJ's I know are cool because they understand that some things can't be explained or understood. Some INTP's I know are cool because they try to understand that which can be explained and understood. We need balance in this world, and both types of people can contribute, just as both can develop in negative ways.

[Eileen]

On the subject of getting to know the INFJ, I've been thinking quite a lot about this recently:

I am averse to pushing myself on other people. I think that there are some pretty neat, beautiful things about me that I would like to share, but I can't just SHARE without permission. I don't feel like I can ooze all over somebody that way. It's as if... I can only expose as much of myself as I am invited to. If you want to see my core, I'll let you look, but only if you ask... only if you make it clear to me that you want to see. Otherwise, I cover up.

Now, I don't lie. I don't pretend to be anything that I'm not--I'm just reserved. I hate the idea of pestering someone with exhibition.

[Rhu]

I am averse to pushing myself on other people. I think that there are some pretty neat, beautiful things about me that I would like to share, but I can't just SHARE without permission. I don't feel like I can ooze all over somebody that way. It's as if... I can only expose as much of myself as I am invited to. If you want to see my core, I'll let you look, but only if you ask... only if you make it clear to me that you want to see. Otherwise, I cover up.
I'm not sure how exclusive this might be to INFJs--I'm pretty much the same way. It could be though that I was encouraged into having reservations like this at an early age due to my possibly taking a far deeper meaning to an admonishment.

After recalling some event where my accidental presence was recalled as annoying, my father growled in a way that was so serious that I couldn't forget it, "Never, ever invite yourself anywhere, son!" Of all the garbage aphorisms that the old man used to try to glue to the fibre of my being, that was probably the first one that I should have peeled away.

I never have. Man, I have issues. ;)

[venerationOFrabbits]

On the subject of getting to know the INFJ, I've been thinking quite a lot about this recently:

I am averse to pushing myself on other people. I think that there are some pretty neat, beautiful things about me that I would like to share, but I can't just SHARE without permission. I don't feel like I can ooze all over somebody that way. It's as if... I can only expose as much of myself as I am invited to. If you want to see my core, I'll let you look, but only if you ask... only if you make it clear to me that you want to see. Otherwise, I cover up.

Now, I don't lie. I don't pretend to be anything that I'm not--I'm just reserved. I hate the idea of pestering someone with exhibition.

My husband has Fe, he is private, his mother was that way too. Public life and private life were/are very different, and I always percieved it as a form of cover up.

[AllAboutSoul]

On the subject of getting to know the INFJ, I've been thinking quite a lot about this recently:

I am averse to pushing myself on other people. I think that there are some pretty neat, beautiful things about me that I would like to share, but I can't just SHARE without permission. I don't feel like I can ooze all over somebody that way. It's as if... I can only expose as much of myself as I am invited to. If you want to see my core, I'll let you look, but only if you ask... only if you make it clear to me that you want to see. Otherwise, I cover up.

Now, I don't lie. I don't pretend to be anything that I'm not--I'm just reserved. I hate the idea of pestering someone with exhibition.


That's me exactly. If someone wants to know me, I'll usually let them. But, I won't push myself on anyone. That goes for feelings and such as well, usually. Especially if it may hurt someone. The way someone feels can never be invalidated without invalidating the human being and that's never ok with me.

[Toonia]

Being a bother or unwanted company is also a worst case scenario for me and the INFJ's i know personally. The problem is that it takes too much convincing before i will actually believe someone wants me around. This was more true when i was younger. To anyone else that feels that way, here's a little :hug:

I also feel really disappointed in myself when i let someone get inside my head. If arrogant, patronizing, self-righteous behavior is related to the INFJ, my guess is that it would tend to happen when they feel most vulnerable and manipulated. It is a strange irony that most infj's i know have been on the receiving end of all that and not the perpetrators. Could there be a connection? I'm not sure.

You know how INT's like to be objective and accurate about logical systems? I think the INF's like to have that same clarity about emotional systems. I know that i do. I work extremely hard to achieve it.

As far as getting to know the INFJ, for me i most need to know that the person isn't going to judge me for not meeting their expectations. I expect a lot of myself and i short circuit when more expectations are imposed on me - especially if i just don't have the ability to meet those. I withdraw with depression and frustration, go watch the ducks, and feel better eventually.

[s0978]

Yes! Another great example. This is really getting somewhere. INFJs somehow think they're smart and able to look deeply into my mind and behaviors but, in fact, they're generally just deluded. I have found a lot of INFJs to be among the "almost smart" camp. You know, the type of person who is aware he is more intelligent than the masses, but isn't aware he's still down the totem poll from genuine intellectuals quite a ways. And, he acts like he's incredibly insightful and everyone is so dumb. These people really are infuriating, far worse than the masses themselves. I think a lack of critical analysis and an inability to be objective leads INFJs to this frame of mind. I think this is also related to why you think others go around and fill in the blanks and project elements of themselves onto others. I'm sure everyone does that to an extent, but I'm just as sure that INFJs do it more than most. Again, it stems from their curious lack of insight about how they actually relate to the greater whole despite being intuitives. The self-absorption is just so overwhelming. Perhaps this is a good example of the Ni-Ne divide, and why Ne people are superior 'big picture' thinkers than Ni people.



Well, I'm not going to engage in any personal attacks, so I'll just keep this discussion about INFJs in general. INFJs aren't overtly manipulative, and most of the time, they probably aren't even aware they're being manipulative. At least with NTs, the manipulation is acknowledged and accepted, stripping away at least the element of hypocrisy which is part and parcel to the trademark INFJ manipulation.

Stated rather harshly, and I have absolutely no desire to hurt feelings or engage an argument, but I just have to say that this is eerily close to how I've always viewed my relating challenges with INFJs. I happen to know several IRL -- somewhat uncanny how many and how similar the dynamics have been with each. None of them are consciously manipulative and say explicitly how horrified they are by the idea of being self-absorbed or imposing their values, but this really describes, for me, what seems to be an unresolvable gap in these relationships. And perhaps the worst frustration is a certain hypocrisy which results from the stark blindness to subjectivity of perspective.

[Hustler]

Hustler, you seem to feel very much a victim here at INTPc, subject to be annoyed by our presence (predicating that you cannot control your own emotional responses and impulses). There are ways around having to have so much contact with us. VBulletin does have a blocking feature. Block us all. We won't cry--I won't, anyway. Sometimes people will quote us in our moments of shining brilliance, and you might have to be exposed to INFJ rays, but other than that, you'll be INFJ-free. But if you want to bitch and moan and complain about how we JUST WON'T GO AWAY, I think by now it's clear that this particular strategy is ineffective and only more likely to elicit INFJ responses. Use your head, man. You apparently find it to be one of your stronger attributes.

Block you and miss little doses of hate like this? Surely you jest. Besides, I feel a bond with all of my fellow INTPs here, and I almost feel obligated to share my perspective on how the INFJ is, by and large, an evil type with them, since so many of them are so easily duped by your shroud of sincerity. If I were to block you all out, it wouldn't help diminish your presence here and the way you wickedly influence the dynamic of the board with your finespun tactics of emotional manipulation. No, I fear it is not as simple as all that, and your very proposal of such a "common sense" solution to my problem with you, with all its slanderous implications, is just another example of your nefarious attempts at control and manipulation. No, in fact, it would accomplish little for me to take my eye off of you lot by blocking you, for I would still see the deleterious effects of your presence, as telling as the bloody, hacking gasps for air of the man dying of tuberculosis is of the unseen infection inside him.

But, this post brings up another thing which annoys me about your kind; I dislike how you sling illogical arguments like this at me, as though somehow my ignoring you would be sufficient. Maybe I will try closing my eyes next time I'm in heavy traffic and slamming my foot on the pedal. Is that really how you think!? Infuriating.

[Oculus Sinister]

Why do I find INFJs irritating? Why do they seem so disingenuous, manipulative, and deeply sinister to me? Most everyone here sees them as kind-hearted and good and whatever, but I see them as controlling and evil.

"There is something rotten in Denmark"

[Hustler]

"There is something rotten in Denmark"
There is something lame about misquoting Shakespeare.

[Oculus Sinister]

There is something lame about misquoting Shakespeare.

http://www.typelogic.com/infj.html

Here is where I got the quote from. [Content edited by Rajah]. I haven't read Shakespeare.

[Hustler]

Here is where I got the quote from. [Content edited by Rajah]. I haven't read Shakespeare.

There's something even lamer about misquoting passages from literature you've never even read. You're welcome.

[Oculus Sinister]

There's something even lamer about misquoting passages from literature you've never even read. You're welcome.

[Content edited by Rajah] What do you gain from coming off like that? Its bullshit.

I take pride in knowing I will never be like you. I would rather objectively point out someone's error than ridicule them.

[demagogic_schizoid]

SpaceDreams, really, is it worth the effort? The antics of Hustler on this thread must constitute some of the most ridiculous shit I've read in ages - INFJ's "evil", "manipulative", god-knows what else - that's millions of people worldwide immediately written off because of four letters they test as. Think about the absurdity, the stupidity of this argument, then ask yourself is it worth taking seriously and getting upset about? Could any person with a healthy mind actually argue what Hustler is arguing? Is there any reasoning or logic you can use against such bigotry? I mean, either he is just taking the piss, in which case arguing with him is just giving him the attention he craves, or he really is a nutjob, in which case reality will have no bearing on him whatsoever. You can argue with someone who is wrong some of the time, but you cannot argue with someone who lives entirely in a fantasy world and who genuinely thinks you think as highly of them as they do of themselves! There's no common ground with such people.

[Hustler]

The antics of Hustler on this thread must constitute some of the most ridiculous shit I've read in ages - INFJ's "evil", "manipulative", god-knows what else - that's millions of people worldwide immediately written off because of four letters they test as. Think about the absurdity, the stupidity of this argument, then ask yourself is it worth taking seriously and getting upset about? Could any person with a healthy mind actually argue what Hustler is arguing? Is there any reasoning or logic you can use against such bigotry? I mean, either he is just taking the piss, in which case arguing with him is just giving him the attention he craves, or he really is a nutjob, in which case reality will have no bearing on him whatsoever. You can argue with someone who is wrong some of the time, but you cannot argue with someone who lives entirely in a fantasy world and who genuinely thinks you think as highly of them as they do of themselves! There's no common ground with such people.
Do you have reasons for your beliefs, or are you going to sling mud because you disagree with me? What is the logic behind your assessment that I am either taking the piss or I am a nutjob? Can you really not imagine another possibility? Restricting your search to just those INFJs we have experienced in common (those on this board), perhaps you would care to point out why your assessment that they're not manipulative is more valid than my assessment that they are? We can skip the evil discussion, because we'd first have to agree on what evil is, and that is likely to be nothing more than a pseudo-intellectual runaround. I think we can agree on what it means to manipulate people. I have observed emotionally-manipulative and controlling tactics out of our "gentle" INFJs here on many, many occasions, and I've even cited some as they've appeared in this very thread. Some have even admitted to being manipulative! How is that I can observe these things, their perpetrators acknowledge this aspect of their personalities and yet you call it absurd?

This is just the tip of the iceberg, too. My main objection is the element of hypocrisy which underpins the facade of sincerity and everything the INFJ stands for. If you don't see it, or if you don't believe it's all that bad, you're certainly entitled to think that way; I just think you're being duped.

[Sackanaka]

I like to stay one step ahead of people close to me but it's probably just be me fooling myself :(

That said, I'm really curious about the philosophy of intent- Ought we be concerned with motives more than actions? More specifically, does a person with "impure" intent deserve any more or less gratitude for a beneficial deed than one with "pure" intent, and of course, what is the value of intent?

[AMDG]

Time and patience, that's all you need.

[mr. treat]

That said, I'm really curious about the philosophy of intent- Ought we be concerned with motives more than actions? More specifically, does a person with "impure" intent deserve any more or less gratitude for a beneficial deed than one with "pure" intent, and of course, what is the value of intent?

to me actions have more impact than intent, although intent certainly has its place. it's a strange thing when someone tears out your heart while saying they don't want to hurt you.

[Park]

I think we can agree on what it means to manipulate people. I have observed emotionally-manipulative and controlling tactics out of our "gentle" INFJs here on many, many occasions, and I've even cited some as they've appeared in this very thread. Some have even admitted to being manipulative! How is that I can observe these things, their purpetrators acknowledge this aspect of their personalities and yet you call it absurd?

This is just the tip of the iceberg, too. My main objection is the element of hypocrisy which underpins the facade of sincerity and everything the INFJ stands for. If you don't see it, or if you don't believe it's all that bad, you're certainly entitled to think that way; I just think you're being duped.

Everybody wants something, our ability to get what we want is determined by our personality, our role in society and the way we interact with other people. Women have historically allways been below men in society's hierachy - *of course* we manipulate. Until just a few decades ago, it was our only way to get what we wanted in life. It wasn't until 1915 that women obtained a right to vote in Denmark. I would even be as daring as to say that the more gentle and seemingly accommodating a woman appears to be, the better manipulative skills she will need to get what she wants in life. Since I perceive IF women as the most gentle types I would also be likely to perceive them as the types who would need to develop their manipulative skills the most?

BTW, evil is such a strong word :) .

[Toonia]

:offtopic:
What scares me the most about human beings in general is the capacity to justify cruelty. This is not directed at any particular type. People who inflict suffering generally feel completely justified in doing it. The first step is to assume a category of people is "evil" and/or the source of all the problems. Then to define them as less than human. Then to punish them for these shortcomings, then to destroy or eliminate them. The process is so damn consistent. It worked for the Nazis, the KKK, and in a million other sick, sadistic contexts. The most frightening part is that people who give in to cruelty are not even monsters. They brush their teeth, enjoy a good joke or a yummy sandwich, some love their dogs, and buy flowers for their wives.

It may be the fear of the INFJ expressed in this thread is a fear that they cannot recognize that they, as any human being, has a capacity to justify cruelty and be the monster. I don't know any reason that they would not see this capacity in themselves. I see a huge range of possibilities of who i could be resulting from experiences and choices. Once a person looks inside themselves, they stop judging others too harshly because they cannot know who they would be in the context of that person's life.

[htb]

No, I fear it is not as simple as all that, and your very proposal of such a "common sense" solution to my problem with you, with all its slanderous implications, is just another example of your nefarious attempts at control and manipulation.Subject is deviating from closed "perspicacity" circuit. Increase dosage.

[Choss]

INFJs are all about deeds, not words. Don't fuck up anything when you are granted a stage by an INFJ. It may take a long time before they give you that stage. Remember that they are intently testing you at that point. Talk all you want after that audition, providing you pass the test. The conversation will be most pleasant forever after... until you fuck up :)

Eight years of marriage to a textbook INFJ has taught me the power of truth. I have seen what happens to people who deceive an INFJ. They are dropped like a hot pan.

I wish I could give you advice on how to accelerate the audition, but I can't. It just happens as it happens. Just don't blow it is all I am saying.

That seems a bit harsh, but If that's the case I'm doomed..:boohoo: :blink:

[Toonia]

When i was in high school, there was a girl who was the social scapegoat. Everyone hated her and you could be considered "nice" and still treat her like crap. Once she dropped her tray in the lunch room and everyone roared. She ran out. She would threaten to kill herself and people would say, "go ahead". She would come in and listen to me play the piano and sing along. One time in choir she turned around and said loudly to me "You spit on me!". Everyone looked. I knew she liked me, so i said "sorry". She looked so happy. Sometimes people deliberately attack someone "nice" to either unmask them to get the predictable result, or to build trust without making self vulnerable. It is a wonderful feeling in and of itself to make a connection like that. It was easy with her because she never actually hurt me because i could see she needed a friend as much as i did.

For the time being i'll be by the lake laughing at the ducks (who by the way love infj's because they feed them bread and biscuits). :hug:

Toodles,
Toonia

[bergenski]

I happen to know several IRL -- somewhat uncanny how many and how similar the dynamics have been with each.
That could stem from what kind of people you are drawn to, or are drawn to you.

[s0978]

That could stem from what kind of people you are drawn to, or are drawn to you.
I'm sure of it, much of why I give as much credence to MBTI as I do (enough to be here).

Incidentally, much more the latter part of your statement. I think there is some basis to the charges of NF masochism that are thrown about around here.

[demagogic_schizoid]

Do you have reasons for your beliefs, or are you going to sling mud because you disagree with me? What is the logic behind your assessment that I am either taking the piss or I am a nutjob? Can you really not imagine another possibility? Restricting your search to just those INFJs we have experienced in common (those on this board), perhaps you would care to point out why your assessment that they're not manipulative is more valid than my assessment that they are? We can skip the evil discussion, because we'd first have to agree on what evil is, and that is likely to be nothing more than a pseudo-intellectual runaround. I think we can agree on what it means to manipulate people. I have observed emotionally-manipulative and controlling tactics out of our "gentle" INFJs here on many, many occasions, and I've even cited some as they've appeared in this very thread. Some have even admitted to being manipulative! How is that I can observe these things, their perpetrators acknowledge this aspect of their personalities and yet you call it absurd?

This is just the tip of the iceberg, too. My main objection is the element of hypocrisy which underpins the facade of sincerity and everything the INFJ stands for. If you don't see it, or if you don't believe it's all that bad, you're certainly entitled to think that way; I just think you're being duped.


Hustler, I just think your claims about INFJ's are very strong and overstated, and this weakens your case. You should have some evidence to back them up. I do not wish to aim insults at you, which is why I did not address you in my post; I am addressing others, asking them why they feel the need to try and convince you that you are wrong when you have not given any evidence for your claims. Basically, I don't have a problem with you as such, just the fact that people treat you differently and take posts by you seriously that would be rubbished if another member wrote them. I can see that your arguments posses internal logic, but curiously no-one ever questions your premises. So instead of another entire thread being a futile exercise in trying to prove Hustler wrong, how about you prove that what Hustler is saying has any basis in reality.

EDIT: and yes, I think people rave about INFJ's too much, but then again I tend to be annoyed by all generalisations based on MBTI, whether it be a case of demonising or idealising people. Jung himself warned against using the functions in this way.

[floating anchor]

I've been looking into this whole issue more, reading posts by INFJ's who have really upset people, etc. Let me attempt to define what i see happening. When certain people who claim to be INFJ have an arrogant disposition, they tend to be very passive aggressive towards people who insult them. These folks take a self-righteous position of only trying to help, when they are actually trying to invalidate the other person.
I've done this. IRL and in the past online, though not on this site. I've done it since I was about nine. It's horrible, but it makes me feel better when someone's really hurt me and I want to resolve the hostility but simultaneously have a little revenge... even if they don't register it as such. I've matured since then, but the desire is still there when I'm hurt. That's just the natural 'evil' way for me to react to certain things. Everyone has good and bad ways that come naturally to them, and that's one of mine. Doesn't mean I'm any more evil than someone with a different set of potential reactions. I'd prefer it to a temptation to physical violence, or many other more common ones.

I can vouche that this may indeed be an INFJ flaw, but that like most flaws, it can be overcome when recognised.

No one's perfect, and I don't think anyone's claimed INFJs to be the exceptions.

[Hustler]

Hustler, I just think your claims about INFJ's are very strong and overstated, and this weakens your case. You should have some evidence to back them up.

The evidence is in the behavior of the INFJs. You can use the posts in this thread as evidence of hypocritical and manipulative behavior. As this is about "getting to know the INFJ" the evidence must come from the INFJs, not from me.


I do not wish to aim insults at you, which is why I did not address you in my post; I am addressing others, asking them why they feel the need to try and convince you that you are wrong when you have not given any evidence for your claims.

So, when you called my antics ridiculous shit, said my argument was absurd and stupid (and failed to offer any actual counter argument of your own) and then said I'm either taking the piss or a nutjob, you were addressing someone else? Okay.


Basically, I don't have a problem with you as such, just the fact that people treat you differently and take posts by you seriously that would be rubbished if another member wrote them. I can see that your arguments posses internal logic, but curiously no-one ever questions your premises. So instead of another entire thread being a futile exercise in trying to prove Hustler wrong, how about you prove that what Hustler is saying has any basis in reality.

Of course my position is rooted in reality, the reality of this forum at least. I have arrived at my conclusions about INFJs by the way they have presented themselves and behaved here at INTPc. Are you asking me to go through the forum and dredge up objectionable posts by the INFJs, or to go through this thread and cite examples of where I cited examples, because you can't seem to be bothered to read my previous posts here without some assistance? Can there be no tacit understandings with you?


EDIT: and yes, I think people rave about INFJ's too much, but then again I tend to be annoyed by all generalisations based on MBTI, whether it be a case of demonising or idealising people. Jung himself warned against using the functions in this way.

How would you prefer MBTI be used if not to make generalizations? It's a way of categorizing people into types, types which share behaviors. In other words, it's a system of generlizations. When you offer up the possibility that INTPs share things in common or that an INTP and INFJ are different for certain reasons, you are generalizing.

[Ferrus]

Why do I find INFJs irritating? Why do they seem so disingenuous, manipulative, and deeply sinister to me? Most everyone here sees them as kind-hearted and good and whatever, but I see them as controlling and evil.
My mother is an INFJ and while I can see how such an opinion can be formed I think it is often less a case of finespun emotional manipulation but rather their inherent emotionality and caprice that leads them to fucking around with everyones head whilst retaining the air of the inviolate martyr.

[Sackanaka]

to me actions have more impact than intent, although intent certainly has its place. it's a strange thing when someone tears out your heart while saying they don't want to hurt you.

Speaking and writing are forms of action as well, somewhat defeating the common idea that "actions speak louder than words." There would be no reason for court hearings if all it took to decide the merit of a criminal was his or her crime. Apologies would have no purpose, and neither would promises. No, I think things spoken and things written are very reflective of a person, they're just more often subtle and controlled.

[Ferrus]

It worked for the Nazis, the KKK, and in a million other sick, sadistic contexts...it may be the fear of the INFJ expressed in this thread is a fear that they cannot recognize that they, as any human being, has a capacity to justify cruelty and be the monster.
Classic.

Let's get the INFJ holocaust started.

[Choss]

When i was in high school, there was a girl who was the social scapegoat. Everyone hated her and you could be considered "nice" and still treat her like crap. Once she dropped her tray in the lunch room and everyone roared. She ran out. She would threaten to kill herself and people would say, "go ahead". She would come in and listen to me play the piano and sing along. One time in choir she turned around and said loudly to me "You spit on me!". Everyone looked. I knew she liked me, so i said "sorry". She looked so happy. Sometimes people deliberately attack someone "nice" to either unmask them to get the predictable result, or to build trust without making self vulnerable. It is a wonderful feeling in and of itself to make a connection like that. It was easy with her because she never actually hurt me because i could see she needed a friend as much as i did.

For the time being i'll be by the lake laughing at the ducks (who by the way love infj's because they feed them bread and biscuits). :hug:

Toodles,
Toonia
I just thought that it was harsh to only have one chance with someone and then that would be it. Being humans, we're bound to mess up. So we have to learn to forgive and forget...

[demagogic_schizoid]

Hustler, I don't see much being acheived in a discussion based around people telling you why you see INFJ's as "manipulative", "sinister", "controlling" and "evil". How should anyone else know why you see INFJ's that way? My reaction is "You tell us dammit!" If you are going to make these claims, back them up, because you certainly demand that anyone who tries to refute them back up their refutation.

But fine, I can't blame you for just chucking any unsubstantiated and bombastic claim out there as long as people are willing to deal with it on your own terms - so I am asking them why they don't ask you to explain your apparently irrational attitude. So really, I am addressing them, not you.

Also, I'm not calling you a nutjob - I'm saying that is what you would be if you weren't just bored and fishing. But I think, from observing the way you behave in different contexts, that that is what you are doing, and I think it's ridiculous for people to bite the bait and to try to hold a discussion based on premises which you have not made any attempt to justify.

[Hustler]

But I think, from observing the way you behave in different contexts, that that is what you are doing, and I think it's ridiculous for people to bite the bait and to try to hold a discussion based on premises which you have not made any attempt to justify.

I'm going to need you to justify your claim that my premises have not been justified. You keep saying this, and I keep refuting it, but then you just state it again. You're wrong. My premises for thinking INFJs are manipulative have been repeatedly justified. Just read my previous posts in this thread. You are behaving irrationally by clinging to this as your only real point in this thread, and it's totally invalid. I cannot be held responsible for your inability to read my posts and follow the very clear citations of INFJ manipulation contained within them.

Do you wish to take a position? My position is completely out in the open. What about you? We're getting to know the INFJ here. So, since you are completely unable to actually make a point in this discussion, why not tell us what you think about the INFJ? That's the purpose of this thread, afterall. You don't think they're manipulative? Would that be correct? Or should we not generalize at all, and maybe the whole idea of a thread about getting to know the INFJ is flawed?

[demagogic_schizoid]

I'm going to need you to justify your claim that my premises have not been justified. You keep saying this, and I keep refuting it, but then you just state it again. You're wrong. My premises for thinking INFJs are manipulative have been repeatedly justified. Just read my previous posts in this thread. You are behaving irrationally by clinging to this as your only real point in this thread, and it's totally invalid. I cannot be held responsible for your inability to read my posts and follow the very clear citations of INFJ manipulation contained within them.

Do you wish to take a position? My position is completely out in the open. What about you? We're getting to know the INFJ here. So, since you are completely unable to actually make a point in this discussion, why not tell us what you think about the INFJ? That's the purpose of this thread, afterall. You don't think they're manipulative? Would that be correct? Or should we not generalize at all, and maybe the whole idea of a thread about getting to know the INFJ is flawed?

http://www.intpcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=469892&postcount=100


These are my thoughts on two INFJ's I know. I made this post not to "take a position", but because I hoped it would help a reader "get to know" these two INFJ's a little better.

[demagogic_schizoid]

I'm going to need you to justify your claim that my premises have not been justified. You keep saying this, and I keep refuting it, but then you just state it again. You're wrong. My premises for thinking INFJs are manipulative have been repeatedly justified. Just read my previous posts in this thread. You are behaving irrationally by clinging to this as your only real point in this thread, and it's totally invalid. I cannot be held responsible for your inability to read my posts and follow the very clear citations of INFJ manipulation contained within them.

I disagree with this. I don't believe you have given anywhere near sufficiently strong evidence considering the strength of your initial claims.

[Hustler]

These are my thoughts on two INFJ's I know. I made this post not to "take a position", but because I hoped it would help a reader "get to know" these two INFJ's a little better.

Yes, I know. What about the INFJs here? How do they compare to the INFJs you know personally? Are there any general traits you can discern from what you've observed in all of them?

[Hustler]

I disagree with this. I don't believe you have given anywhere near sufficiently strong evidence considering the strength of your initial claims.

Considering you've provided no counter evidence or argument at all, I guess we're at an impass. I have cited examples in this thread, and I have given examples of this in other threads. If that's not enough, then it would be irrational of me to proceed, because you're just going to be dismissive of reason. Why? Who cares.

[demagogic_schizoid]

Yes, I know. What about the INFJs here? How do they compare to the INFJs you know personally? Are there any general traits you can discern from what you've observed in all of them?

Toonia tried to diffuse tension with a "joke" and then got progressively angrier as her attempts were met with indifference by the other side, which stuck to it's guns. This is something I recognise in the two INFJ's I know personally, they want you to meet them half-way - they will back down a little, but if you don't they will see this as a betrayal, withdraw the previous attempts to compromise, and then come back harder than ever - like Toonia did with her thread questioning the INTPness of other posters.

Now I would call that thread in itself an example of INFJ irrationality, but it's behaviour which is also exhibited by many INTP's.

I would add to this however that Toonia seems a lot more emotional than the two INFJ's I know personally. I would expect them to pretend you hadn't gotten to them much more than she did.

[demagogic_schizoid]

Considering you've provided no counter evidence or argument at all, I guess we're at an impass. I have cited examples in this thread, and I have given examples of this in other threads. If that's not enough, then it would be irrational of me to proceed, because you're just going to be dismissive of reason. Why? Who cares.

How can I provide evidence of a lack of evidence? I can only say that I have read through the entire thread and I think the strength of your claims far outweighs the strength of your evidence. I'm not going to go through every sentence you've written and dissect it. Now if I am wrong, then everyone will be able to see, and they can laugh at me whilst reading through the solid foundations you have provided for every one of your claims about INFJ's.

[Hustler]

How can I provide evidence of a lack of evidence?

In this case, you can't.

[mr. treat]

Speaking and writing are forms of action as well, somewhat defeating the common idea that "actions speak louder than words." There would be no reason for court hearings if all it took to decide the merit of a criminal was his or her crime. Apologies would have no purpose, and neither would promises. No, I think things spoken and things written are very reflective of a person, they're just more often subtle and controlled.

and there would be no reason for court hearings if all it took to decide a criminals merit was there intent. i think it comes to the heart/mind duality. where is there a balance?

[Hustler]

I would add to this however that Toonia seems a lot more emotional than the two INFJ's I know personally. I would expect them to pretend you hadn't gotten to them much more than she did.

Interesting that you'd read it that way. I didn't think I had gotten to Toonia at all, nor was that my intention. That aside, your statement brings up the question of whether the INFJs you know putting up a front, pretending they hadn't been "gotten to," is any less emotional or not. In one case, the emotion is expressed openly, and in the other, the emotion is kept private. In both cases, an emotional reaction is had. Do you think INFJs tend to act tough to compensate for or conceal how strongly they feel about things, perhaps because they are aware their level of feeling is irrational?

[abathur]

Being bothered by the irrationality of a process lying outside the realm of reason seems... irrational. Why is any level of feeling inherently irrational? Perhaps the reaction to the feelings is irrational, but I don't know that the feelings can really be so.

Is it rational or irrational for having your hair pulled to hurt one person more than another, when each have their own sensitivty to the stimulus? Dubious. Might it be irrational to hit the person in response? Well, that seems to be controlled by the level of pain they inflicted. Perhaps it isn't really irrational to hit someone who inflicted pain on you. Maybe we could all agree on the irrationality of killing the person for inflicting pain, so it seems there's a limit. This limit, however, seems to be on the reaction to the stimulus, and simply doesn't apply as a descriptor for the stimulus itself.

That's like saying the shirt I'm wearing looks irrationally white. It just looks like it looks. Perhaps gouging your eyes out, instead of looking away, would be irrational.

[demagogic_schizoid]

Interesting that you'd read it that way. I didn't think I had gotten to Toonia at all, nor was that my intention. That aside, your statement brings up the question of whether the INFJs you know putting up a front, pretending they hadn't been "gotten to," is any less emotional or not. In one case, the emotion is expressed openly, and in the other, the emotion is kept private. In both cases, an emotional reaction is had. Do you think INFJs tend to act tough to compensate for or conceal how strongly they feel about things, perhaps because they are aware their level of feeling is irrational?

Well judging by her responses I think she seemed quite annoyed. But maybe I am reading her wrong. She mentioned she was mulling over a response to you in the bath, and I gather she had walked away from the argument in order to calm down - this isn't something I imagine people normally do when it comes to discussions over the internet. Also, I don't believe that the INFJ's I know would normally be so dogged in an argument as Toonia was, and they would normally never resurrect one, unless they were very annoyed. But as I say maybe I got Toonia all wrong.

Also, I don't believe the INFJ's I know "act tough", as such. They are just very headstrong individuals who really are determined to do things thier own way. I consider this to be genuine toughness. I guess there is an element of disguising the extent to which they feel strongly about things, but I think this isn't so much "acting tough" as adapting to survive in the world. I don't think the ones I know try and present some sort of tough persona to the world as such, they have just developed enough of a thick skin to deal with disillusionment with humour, indifference and rationalisation as opposed to giving into their feelings. I don't think this is unique to INFJ's either.

[Zero Angel]

You know how you can avoid this entire conflict? Three simple words.

In my experience

In my experience, INFJ's aren't manipulative. In Hustler's experience, they are. Maybe he's met different INFJ's than me. :eek:
They can be. From a jungian perspective Ni involves forseeing and predicting, Fe involves keeping a measure of peoples thoughts and feelings and manipulating the environment (in a good or bad way) to influence those feelings, it is also a process which involves attachment.

The thing is that many INFJ's genuinely care what other people think and feel about various things, including themselves (the INFJ). This nonverbal sensitivity gives them the ability to predict how others will react internally to their actions, and to mold their actions to get a desired reaction. Some are even in danger of developing an appearance-based method of working through interpersonal relationships, and others can be quite vain, the vanity yet another mask which degrades whatever is behind it.

To think that an INFJ cannot be manipulative is a mistake made by observing either INFJ's who are not manipulative by nature or (more commonly) who are manipulative in a neutral sense and good enough not to get caught.

[Sackanaka]

and there would be no reason for court hearings if all it took to decide a criminals merit was there intent. i think it comes to the heart/mind duality. where is there a balance?

idk, i hate law

[cafe]

This thread is making me feel like I have evil super powers that I haven't fully explored or exploited.

*dreams of evil laugh practice with IN daughters ? la Se?or Senior, Sr. and Se?or Senior, Jr. *

[AllAboutSoul]

This thread is making me feel like I have evil super powers that I haven't fully explored or exploited.

*dreams of evil laugh practice with IN daughters ? la Se?or Senior, Sr. and Se?or Senior, Jr. *


Yeah , I guess we just need to get in touch with our truer selves. :ph34r:

[Hustler]

This thread is making me feel like I have evil super powers that I haven't fully explored or exploited.

Evil, yes. Super? I wouldn't go that far :P

[cafe]

Evil, yes. Super? I wouldn't go that far :P
With everything else you said, you hardly have to. :devil:

[jenx10sen]

All this talk about INFJ women, all this speculation, but alas, no INFJs. Ok, I saw the posts and I thought I would help you out. I am one of those INFJ mythical unicorns that are so hard to find and even harder to understand. You won't recognize me in public, because people overwelm me so I either adapt to an "extroverted" style, or I am wondering off in the distance daydreaming somewhere by myself. You may find me in a corner in deep conversation with a complete stranger - of course this is deep on their end, I am listening and offering advice and perhaps a similar story of something that happened to me - mostly given as a tool to help the other person, but not done out of discloser because the wall is still up.

How does someone get past the wall? Ok, here is something you must know about INFJs. We tend to romanticize everything, but knowing this is not acceptable, we do try to cover this up in public. Die hard romantics. You spend your entire life hearing that you are "too sensitive", so you do what you can just to function. But secretly, I have written in countless journals & poems about love, but can never bring myself to tell the one I love. At least not first- unless years go by and I become desperate, then I pretend it never happened if the response is not favorable. However this is dangerous, because if I don't love you, and we have a friendship and you tell me this, I will run and perhaps never feel comfortable again - that is unless you are harmless. Even then, nothing will happen. INFJs rarely get involved for the sake of just getting physical needs met, but I have on rare occasions (out of spite) been with someone else, hoping to make the object of my obsession jealous. It usually backfires, and I cry myself to sleep because I lowered my standards. We don't usually sleep around and sometimes years will go by without involvement (romanticly hoping for "the one"), and if we do sleep around, it's usually to prove that we "normal" and like everyone else - but this too backfires.
Ok, back to the wall thing. INFJ make friends with everyone and no one at the same time. Our close friends are few, but they must understand our need to space, and that sometimes a lot of time with pass without contact. A needy friend that drains our energy won't last. That wall will stay up. The one that is loyal, and is our shoulder to cry on, has a better chance BUT we only confide in those closest to us.

How does that happen? Balance of friendship and space. Once or twice a week hang out. Don't wig if she calls you, that's a good thing. Go to interesting movies that you can discuss. Ask open ended questions. So, what did you think of the relationship between the characters?

Relationships are big to us, so is psychology, and social dynamics. We have lots of opinions, but we rarely find people who share the same interests, so most go unspoken. I have met other INFJ women, and we tend to share the same interests (written, performing and fine arts, also communitee service), very multi-talented, I've been surprised.

Find out what her passion is, and go from there. But be careful, an ex of mine, love of my life, took me to an art museum because I love to paint - I wanted to enjoy it, but he seemed bored. He would have been better off taking me down to art supply store, painting with me, and letting me show him how to artistly interpret something or express deep meaning. Who knows it might have gotten interesting. I even at one time bought edible paints, with the hopes of getting interesting, but never had the courage to bring them out.

Whatever you do, they love honesty, but don't thwart their ideas. They will lose hope, and that's not good. It's good to be honest, but do it with subtle questioning. "So, did you think about how to get it financed?, well maybe I can help you with that" However, if anyone can pull off an idea, it's an INFJ. We have lots of them, but once we decide to pursue one of them, we go all out, at least until it runs dry, then we move on to the next one.

On a whim, after years of dreaming of being a model, I got a book on it, and worked up the courage to call agencies. The first said no, but gave me numbers to others and the next two I called offered me a contract. Ends up this contract was the same contract thousands of girls enter in a magazine contest each year, and for me, just with a phone call, I was one of 15 models that the agency had. I never got any work, but at least I tried, and I can close the door on that dream. Off to chase the next dream.

I need to get my sleep, but I hope things work out. The biggest problem I have with men, is that the one's I am interested in, think that I'm not interested in them. And the one's I don't really care about, get too clingy. How to know which guy you are? The nicer she is to you, the more agreeable she is, the more she likes you. If she surprises you with something thoughtful, (that took a lot of effort) she's hooked. If she gets something that "seems" appropriate but not special to you, she's just being polite.

[cinnamongirl]

How does someone get past the wall? Ok, here is something you must know about INFJs. We tend to romanticize everything, but knowing this is not acceptable, we do try to cover this up in public. Die hard romantics. You spend your entire life hearing that you are "too sensitive", so you do what you can just to function.

...

Ok, back to the wall thing. INFJ make friends with everyone and no one at the same time. Our close friends are few, but they must understand our need to space, and that sometimes a lot of time with pass without contact. A needy friend that drains our energy won't last. That wall will stay up. The one that is loyal, and is our shoulder to cry on, has a better chance BUT we only confide in those closest to us.

One of my close friends is a "rare" INFJ and all of this sounds EXACTLY like her! She is such a romantic, and intensely private as well. I've known her for a very long time, but it also took forever to really get to know her well. She HATES talking about her personal life (i.e. dating) in front of people she doesn't know well... even if people are just joking around - we have a mutual friend who does this. She won't admit it on the spot, but later on she'll say how uncomfortable she felt.

She is so set on finding the "right guy" and settling down, but that hasn't worked out so far. A lot of guys our age are still immature and running around with lots of girls, partying a lot, which isn't really her scene.

I think it's also hard for her to meet guys in the first place. She literally has to be dragged out of the house sometimes, when I or someone else insists she go out. She spends most of her time involved with work (as an elementary school teacher... not too many men there!) and sometimes church things. She also lives way out of the city, so that probably doesn't help either.

So how to find that elusive INFJ?

You probably won't ever be approached by one, but maybe she'll be out with a group of friends. She might seem a little uptight at first, but once you get to know her you'll realize she's just shy and maybe self-conscious, but a really warm and caring person who will occassionally let loose and get a little crazy ;)

[cinnamongirl]

Oh, and I might add that my INFJ friend is also completely oblivious (much like me). She usually has NO IDEA when someone likes her, even if it's clear to everyone else. We pretty much have to tell her.

[heart]

Well judging by her responses I think she seemed quite annoyed. But maybe I am reading her wrong. She mentioned she was mulling over a response to you in the bath, and I gather she had walked away from the argument in order to calm down - this isn't something I imagine people normally do when it comes to discussions over the internet. Also, I don't believe that the INFJ's I know would normally be so dogged in an argument as Toonia was, and they would normally never resurrect one, unless they were very annoyed. But as I say maybe I got Toonia all wrong.

Speaking as an INFP, I frequently get to a point where I just don't have anything further to say on an issue maybe I am bored with it or just tired at the moment or whatever...but maybe later when my mind is unoccupied the topic comes back to me and I think of a new light on it. It doesn't mean I left the agrument because I needed to calm down.


Also, I don't believe the INFJ's I know "act tough", as such. They are just very headstrong individuals who really are determined to do things thier own way. I consider this to be genuine toughness. I guess there is an element of disguising the extent to which they feel strongly about things, but I think this isn't so much "acting tough" as adapting to survive in the world. I don't think the ones I know try and present some sort of tough persona to the world as such, they have just developed enough of a thick skin to deal with disillusionment with humour, indifference and rationalisation as opposed to giving into their feelings. I don't think this is unique to INFJ's either.

My husband tests as an INFJ. I would say he does not always show his emotional face to the world but it is more that his deeper emotions are private. He seems to draw most of his strength from his inner idealism. Some people mistake him for a weak person they can push around because on the surfce he can appear very quiet and his soft heart shows but they come away stung after trying to do so.

[demagogic_schizoid]

Speaking as an INFP, I frequently get to a point where I just don't have anything further to say on an issue maybe I am bored with it or just tired at the moment or whatever...but maybe later when my mind is unoccupied the topic comes back to me and I think of a new light on it. It doesn't mean I left the agrument because I needed to calm down.

But you're INFP, this is about INFJ's. I was basing my answers on two INFJ's I know well. if it was about infp's I would have given a different answer or not answered.

[Celtinfj]

I joined this board specifically because of this thread. After reading up on my profile I kinda thought I was all that...it's sort of gratifying to read this and be taken down a peg or two.

I'm at the point where I wonder what is me, and what is the acronym. Yes, I'm not particularly social, but I do love people. I love being around them, love finding out what they think, how they think. Most of the time I feel like Margaret Mead, observing, cataloguing, taking notes, trying to fit people into neat compact boxes. But of course they refuse to stay put. It's disconcerting, really.

As for manipulation, which seems to be a big thing for some here, I'm far too socially challenged for that. And while I have high standards, I don't exclude myself from them. Honesty is everything to me. I'd rather be hurt by the truth any day of the week than by a sugar coated lie just to smooth ruffles. Nothing infuriates me more, in fact. And manipulation and hypocrasy (sp?)are the 2 biggest relationship killers there are. Why would I resemble what I hate?

I'm not sure about blanket statements, though. ALL this are that. I don't believe that to be true, and I think it's a form of prejuidism. And while we're all prejuidiced to one point or another (I, myself, can't stand used car salesmen), it is kind of limiting. But whatever.

I also don't really find myself to be judgemental. Maybe it's because I don't like that word and I'm not comfortable judging people. If I observe someone displaying behaviour that I find goes against my grain, I just back away. My opinions are thoughts, nothing more. While I don't need to grandstand and get on my soapbox and say that person is BAD, I don't necessarily have to tolerate icky behaviour either.

To the OP and your girl, I need to talk to people about relationships and feelings, too. It's mandatory to my process. It did take a while before I was able to discern between those who were trustworthy or not...perhaps that's what she's going through. If she's anything like me, she's probably oblivious of your feelings for her, only focusing on her feelings for you. I assume nothing, and won't make a first move unless someone else does, MOST of the time.

Anyway, interesting thread. Glad I found this place :)

[fathom]

I've dated one INFJ and as an INTP and occasional ENTP using lots of extraverted intuition, sometimes I crossed her "values boundary" a few times and that really pissed her off. But my style is to play fast and loose with ideas, wit, and repartee and so it did get to me, that feeling of walking on eggshells.

Although I found her frequent silences and beatific placidity mesmerizing. She's married now and we're email friends.

[Celtinfj]

I've dated one INFJ and as an INTP and occasional ENTP using lots of extraverted intuition, sometimes I crossed her "values boundary" a few times and that really pissed her off. But my style is to play fast and loose with ideas, wit, and repartee and so it did get to me, that feeling of walking on eggshells.

Although I found her frequent silences and beatific placidity mesmerizing. She's married now and we're email friends.

I actually love that play fast thing...I find it a challenge, and it gets me out of myself, wanting to keep up.

As for silence...I find that even when I'm quiet, I'm always communicating. Always.

[lysaabi]

Wow. All this talk about the INFJ woman...
I found this site when I googled INFJ... I just signed up.
I am an INFJ woman... not sure what all the fuss is about... ? :-)
Hello, at any rate.

[awe]

INFJ and a women... I so envy you.

[Methofelis]

Ah, the INFJ... such nice folks. A little emotionally whacked, but that's why I never dated one...

I know three: Two females, one male.

I've never spent much time with one of the women (She's my boyfriend's ex,) but I know that she is a very well-spoken, solid, kind person. She has a bit of a following of loyalist friends that had nothing but respect for her, as is the case with most people who meet her, apparently.

The other female is good fun to talk to. We get along quite well, and she seems fairly emotionally grounded compared to some Fs I know. She has a sort of sad but ever smiling quality to her, though. She is fairly private.

The guy is one of my best friends. We have spent hours upon hours just conversing on everything from metaphysics to politics to secret societies. He's an amazing wealth of knowledge for things of this sort. He has cried on my shoulder before as well, him being a very sensitive and quite the hopeless romantic type. He's still single, and nobody can quite figure out why. He's also a language teacher and often is surrounded by students who adore him from every country you can think of. Great guy.

[heart]

But you're INFP, this is about INFJ's. I was basing my answers on two INFJ's I know well. if it was about infp's I would have given a different answer or not answered.

So what you are saying is that when an INFJ woman leaves a debate and gets off line and takes a bath, she's doing because she is pissed off, even though a INFP woman might do that just because she has nothing left to add or she got bored at that moment? Is that your logic here?

[demagogic_schizoid]

that's not logic, that's just two propositions. "the earth goes round the sun, and the moon goes round the earth, is that your logic?" - is an unanswerable question. :)

[cascademn]

Obviously new here; have to say this is a very active forum and you guys are always have such active, interesting discussions!!!

I've spent a lot of time (probably too much) trying to figure out my mbti. INFJ resonates most with me, and given how I was as a child/teenager, I think it's me. I could write at length about this very topic (i.e. why I think I'm INFJ, or why I waffle sometimes and depending on my mood might test as something different - like historically I've tested INTJ, but the INTJ description does not resonate at ALL with me. Temporary conclusion is that I'm so extremely hard on myself and in the past have convinced myself I'm a mean, uncaring person, just because I happen to dislike certain types of people...hence I'd end up testing INTJ because internally I'd concluded I was callous.

Anyhow..back to topic. Two of my close friends happen to be INFJ's too!! Which is odd/interesting, given how many of you have trouble finding INFJ's!! I have so much in common with both - we think very similarly, and we process the same way too.

There are way too many posts in this thread for me to respond to individually, at this point - kinda sucks jumping in at the end, after the thread has already died! :-)

Relationships can be..tough for me. It's not that I can't, and don't, get along with people, because I can. I've been considered 'quiet and sweet' since I was quite young, but most notably when I was a teenager I was so sensitive that I basically became petrified of people, and interactions. After being teased a few times, I internalized that a lot, so I was basically hidden inside, without having ANY deep relationships with anyone. I also grew up in a home where emotions were not really expressed, and meaningful conversations never occurred. So I felt I wasn't even taught the skills (conversational) to be social and make friends, and most importantly, I didn't have any confidence in myself growing up, and locked so many emotions deep inside, without even being aware maybe that they were there. In college, I consciously made the effort to be opposite how I was in high school, simply because high school was so miserable for me, and I wanted to 'fix' myself. College was fun, I have no regrets, and I didn't completely lose myself; although, I did lose key parts of myself for a time. Post-college, has been learning, a lot of self-awareness, and self-growth. And, mistakes.

Anyway, that's the background. I tend to tangent offtopic! But my emotionally repressed (i.e. NO one to talk to about anything - and yes, a lot of that was self-fulfilling) childhood, due to fear and sensitivity, was the groundwork of who I am today.

I feel like I've grown and matured a LOT over the past 10 years, most especially the past 5 yrs (I'm now 29), and I'm now to the point where I'm actually beginning to self-actualize..I think. :-) I'm becoming extremely comfortable with who I am, now that I've gained some of the skills I was lacking as a kid, and am more in tune with my needs in life, and in relationships. Prior to this point, I went through a series of relationships where I had the notable tendency of catering to the other person, and putting their needs ahead of mine...and I think I was kind of unaware of what my needs were - it was a foreign concept until recently!! Arg, I tangented again!

Relationships: As I have matured I am working on not having as many walls up. I am trying to become more open to being hurt, or rejected, and I'm much more comfortable being rejected now. It's ok now, because I don't want someone in my life who isn't interested in getting to know ME. I also recognize many people operate on a completely different wavelength than I do; thus, I am comfortable knowing that it's OK, and actually makes sense, that a lot of people aren't going to have any interest in me at all, or that I'm not going to be able to connect on a deep level with many people.

I think it's the internal awareness itself - that I'm not going to connect with most people that I meet - that oddly enough makes things more comfortable. So, that translates to my being able to get along with most people on a surface level, and to understand WHY they think or act the way they do, even though I can't really relate to it. And, to understand within that some people simply don't have the makeup to interact in the way that I crave.

What do I crave? It's hard to put into words. I just want to BE. I want to be free to be who I am, with my flaws, and I want to be accepted for that. At the same time, I'm incredibly, incredibly hard on myself for my flaws, and I tend to oscillate between being happy with who I am, and at peace with myself, flaws and all, and extremely bitter about myself, and how judgemental/critical I can be of others...amongst other things. So, I feel there's sometimes a dichotomy within me, and it's that dichotomy that I struggle with when it comes to relationships - romantic ones, at least - because I have a difficult time understanding how I, and my flaws and moodiness (not externally demonstrated, most of the time, aside from irritability - any negative feelings within me tend to equate to my being irritable with anyone and everything, and mostly, irritable at myself for being irritable in the first place) - can be desirable to someone else. And, the fact that I don't feel that I'm consistently a certain way, and I feel I'm too complicated for any ONE person to really 'get'.

I must comment on awkward silences and what to 'do' with INFJ's. Firstly, I can count on probably two fingers the number of people in my life where, right off the bat, awkward silences were perfectly OK. I think I'm hyper-aware of external body language, or something, because if I sense the other person is perfectly comfortable with silence, then I in turn become perfectly comfortable with silence. If I initially am ok with the silence, but at all think the other person is NOT ok with it, then I suddenly become stressed about it.

I've gotten this a few times when I've been dating, and to be honest it's made me very uncomfortable and put me into self-analysis mode, which I don't really like doing. At times, just laying on the couch, or listening to music, or whatever, I've been totally silent, not really thinking or doing anything. Just perfectly comfortable in the moment. The other person has asked: 'What are you thinking?'. And I'm flummoxed, because I don't have an answer, because I'm not really thinking of anything - nothing that can be equated into words, that is. I don't really know how to describe it - it's more that I'm spacing out, and my brain kind of turns off, and I'm just kind of floating along, with feelings floating around too. Makes me think that I don't 'think' in words - I 'think' in images or perceptions or..I don't know. And sometimes it can take me a long time to sort through my feelings to really figure out what exactly I'm feeling, and why, and what precipitated the feeling.

That's another 'problem' I have sometimes. I'm much better in email/ web forums because I can take a lot of time to sort through my thoughts and write them out; if I'm randomly asked how I feel about a deep subject though (even though I have a LOT of thoughts/opinions about it) - say, religion, or my dreams...I lock up and my mind is often empty. Or, I have so many convoluted thoughts about the subject (example - I could, and have, written 70+ pages on religion/metaphysics). I don't do well being asked questions, I guess...I bumble around often-times when trying to speak my mind verbally, on complex subjects.

Activities are IDEAL for me. I don't like talking, per se, although I don't have anything against it either. It's just I can really let loose and it'll be much more likely for me to be talkative, and open up, if I'm doing things with another person. Movies, climbing, hiking, kayaking, anything outdoors for me.

However, if the person is doing something that *I* like, and I in any way sense the other person isn't really into it and is doing it just for me, I probably wouldn't enjoy it, simply because I know the other person isn't having a good time. Other peoples' discomfort/apathy makes me stressed, because I'm thinking the whole time about how the other person isn't really enjoying himself. So - find something you know BOTH people like!!!!

Finally, I think with an INFJ you DO need patience, because the INFJ will open up in her own time. In a way, I agree that she's 'testing' you in a lot of the beginning stages. I know I do that. I'm very much the observer, and I want to know all about the other person, and if I sense we'll connect, only then will I open up. If I don't sense it's possible, then I won't put much effort into it.

Also, it highly depends on the person. There are times when I am immediately comfortable in opening up and feel I am accepted immediately; there are other times where it takes quite a while for me to feel comfortable, or to feel I know the person well enough. The people I tend to open up to immediately are the ones I sense are being TRUE to themselves, and aren't trying to prove anything to anyone - they just ARE who they are - no excuses, no shamefulness, not into status, not superficial, and very free-thinking and individual. (by the way, I'm an enneagram 4 too). However, as an addendum: The person has to have a good heart. I have no tolerance for mean-spirited people. Also, I have a few values in life that are absolutely important to me (for me - nature is probably #1), and if it isn't important to the other person, I'll have no interest/respect whatsoever. INFJ's each have their own set of values and priorities in life, and they aren't going to associate with people who noticeably do not carry those values.

As for why I 'test' the other person, and want to see what the other person is about first, before I might open up? Well, I don't want to change the other person, or force him to be someone who he truly isn't. I want to see the 'real him' unfold before me - I don't want him to tweak who he is, just to get a favorable response from me, or just to get me to open up a bit more. Probably totally unrealistic of me...but I like to believe the 'right' person will just mesh with me right off the bat (and, I have had relationships like that, although, haha, it might be a horrible theory or way to proceed, since they ultimately didn't work out!! :-)

On the other hand - and I know this probably sounds contradictory but I don't think it is - if the guy really likes me and is really into me, then I want him to demonstrate it. The few times I've become emotionally vulnerable in relationships, was with extroverted men who quietly tried to break through some of my defenses, because they wanted to get to know me. It's so rare that men even notice my existance (and I don't think I'm unattractive, actually I think I'm ok for my age!), that the ones who actually try to get to know me, and genuinely are intrigued/interested in me, have already broken through to me in many ways. Gently pushing through - out of caring - has worked for me more than once. ;-P

[curiouslittleboy]

Ugh...I fucking HATE INFJ's...they're two faced, manipulative, condescending fucktards with a passive agressive streak a mile wide...I'm personally thankful they're the rarest type....cuz the last thing this world needs is more of those asswipes. ><

[Cachao]

damn son.. quite a broad statement.


I have an female INFJ friend who I get along with great. At first she didn't have a good concept of my need for space and friendship style, but eventually that worked itself out. When I feel like talking, or after I've broken past the first couple of minutes of the convo, we have stellar conversations.

I definitely don't understand her decision making/tastes, but then again, I know she doesn't understand mine. :)

Sometimes she feels like I'm really opening up to her, when actually it's my enthusiasm for ideas (http://homepage.mac.com/bahlberg/iblog/B1386252977/C67480207/E875220434/index.html).

[curiouslittleboy]

damn son.. quite a broad statement.


I have an female INFJ friend who I get along with great. At first she didn't have a good concept of my need for space and friendship style, but eventually that worked itself out. When I feel like talking, or after I've broken past the first couple of minutes of the convo, we have stellar conversations.

I definitely don't understand her decision making/tastes, but then again, I know she doesn't understand mine. :)

Sometimes she feels like I'm really opening up to her, when actually it's my enthusiasm for ideas (http://homepage.mac.com/bahlberg/iblog/B1386252977/C67480207/E875220434/index.html).
The exception not the rule, imho.
Just pointing out my experiences with this type.

[A Schnitzel]

Ugh...I fucking HATE INFJ's...they're two faced, manipulative, condescending fucktards with a passive agressive streak a mile wide...I'm personally thankful they're the rarest type....cuz the last thing this world needs is more of those asswipes. ><

This little boy doesn't seem so curious.

[curiouslittleboy]

This little boy doesn't seem so curious.

I just have a strong opinion.
And you don't seem very INTP. :P

[A Schnitzel]

I just have a strong opinion.
And you don't seem very INTP. :P

Really? I don't think anybody has ever said that to me.

[curiouslittleboy]

Really? I don't think anybody has ever said that to me.

Indeed,
we both passed judgement on the other, so we're most likely INTJ's. X3
Just like Our friendly nieghborhood troll, limely. :lol:

[curiouslittleboy]

Hmmm...sorry about those offense posts I made earlier...was in a bad mood when I made them, although those points still did stand...though, I could be wrong, as I often, am, and the ones I was with, were just jaded from types like me or something....Sorry to any INFJ's whom I offended. ^^;;;;;;;;;

[MacGuffin]

Was she at least good in bed?

[cafe]

Was she at least good in bed?
I'm guessing he didn't get that far.

[Curtis24]

I'm an INFJ, we're not that bad :P

[Eric]

He's still single, and nobody can quite figure out why.
Yep, I know how that is all too well....

Obviously new here; have to say this is a very active forum and you guys are always have such active, interesting discussions!!!

I've spent a lot of time (probably too much) trying to figure out my mbti. INFJ resonates most with me, and given how I was as a child/teenager, I think it's me. I could write at length about this very topic (i.e. why I think I'm INFJ, or why I waffle sometimes and depending on my mood might test as something different - like historically I've tested INTJ, but the INTJ description does not resonate at ALL with me. Temporary conclusion is that I'm so extremely hard on myself and in the past have convinced myself I'm a mean, uncaring person, just because I happen to dislike certain types of people...hence I'd end up testing INTJ because internally I'd concluded I was callous.

Anyhow..back to topic. Two of my close friends happen to be INFJ's too!! Which is odd/interesting, given how many of you have trouble finding INFJ's!! I have so much in common with both - we think very similarly, and we process the same way too.

There are way too many posts in this thread for me to respond to individually, at this point - kinda sucks jumping in at the end, after the thread has already died! :-)

Relationships can be..tough for me. It's not that I can't, and don't, get along with people, because I can. I've been considered 'quiet and sweet' since I was quite young, but most notably when I was a teenager I was so sensitive that I basically became petrified of people, and interactions. After being teased a few times, I internalized that a lot, so I was basically hidden inside, without having ANY deep relationships with anyone. I also grew up in a home where emotions were not really expressed, and meaningful conversations never occurred. So I felt I wasn't even taught the skills (conversational) to be social and make friends, and most importantly, I didn't have any confidence in myself growing up, and locked so many emotions deep inside, without even being aware maybe that they were there. In college, I consciously made the effort to be opposite how I was in high school, simply because high school was so miserable for me, and I wanted to 'fix' myself. College was fun, I have no regrets, and I didn't completely lose myself; although, I did lose key parts of myself for a time. Post-college, has been learning, a lot of self-awareness, and self-growth. And, mistakes.

Anyway, that's the background. I tend to tangent offtopic! But my emotionally repressed (i.e. NO one to talk to about anything - and yes, a lot of that was self-fulfilling) childhood, due to fear and sensitivity, was the groundwork of who I am today.

I feel like I've grown and matured a LOT over the past 10 years, most especially the past 5 yrs (I'm now 29), and I'm now to the point where I'm actually beginning to self-actualize..I think. :-) I'm becoming extremely comfortable with who I am, now that I've gained some of the skills I was lacking as a kid, and am more in tune with my needs in life, and in relationships. Prior to this point, I went through a series of relationships where I had the notable tendency of catering to the other person, and putting their needs ahead of mine...and I think I was kind of unaware of what my needs were - it was a foreign concept until recently!! Arg, I tangented again!

Relationships: As I have matured I am working on not having as many walls up. I am trying to become more open to being hurt, or rejected, and I'm much more comfortable being rejected now. It's ok now, because I don't want someone in my life who isn't interested in getting to know ME. I also recognize many people operate on a completely different wavelength than I do; thus, I am comfortable knowing that it's OK, and actually makes sense, that a lot of people aren't going to have any interest in me at all, or that I'm not going to be able to connect on a deep level with many people.

I think it's the internal awareness itself - that I'm not going to connect with most people that I meet - that oddly enough makes things more comfortable. So, that translates to my being able to get along with most people on a surface level, and to understand WHY they think or act the way they do, even though I can't really relate to it. And, to understand within that some people simply don't have the makeup to interact in the way that I crave.

What do I crave? It's hard to put into words. I just want to BE. I want to be free to be who I am, with my flaws, and I want to be accepted for that. At the same time, I'm incredibly, incredibly hard on myself for my flaws, and I tend to oscillate between being happy with who I am, and at peace with myself, flaws and all, and extremely bitter about myself, and how judgemental/critical I can be of others...amongst other things. So, I feel there's sometimes a dichotomy within me, and it's that dichotomy that I struggle with when it comes to relationships - romantic ones, at least - because I have a difficult time understanding how I, and my flaws and moodiness (not externally demonstrated, most of the time, aside from irritability - any negative feelings within me tend to equate to my being irritable with anyone and everything, and mostly, irritable at myself for being irritable in the first place) - can be desirable to someone else. And, the fact that I don't feel that I'm consistently a certain way, and I feel I'm too complicated for any ONE person to really 'get'.

I must comment on awkward silences and what to 'do' with INFJ's. Firstly, I can count on probably two fingers the number of people in my life where, right off the bat, awkward silences were perfectly OK. I think I'm hyper-aware of external body language, or something, because if I sense the other person is perfectly comfortable with silence, then I in turn become perfectly comfortable with silence. If I initially am ok with the silence, but at all think the other person is NOT ok with it, then I suddenly become stressed about it.

I've gotten this a few times when I've been dating, and to be honest it's made me very uncomfortable and put me into self-analysis mode, which I don't really like doing. At times, just laying on the couch, or listening to music, or whatever, I've been totally silent, not really thinking or doing anything. Just perfectly comfortable in the moment. The other person has asked: 'What are you thinking?'. And I'm flummoxed, because I don't have an answer, because I'm not really thinking of anything - nothing that can be equated into words, that is. I don't really know how to describe it - it's more that I'm spacing out, and my brain kind of turns off, and I'm just kind of floating along, with feelings floating around too. Makes me think that I don't 'think' in words - I 'think' in images or perceptions or..I don't know. And sometimes it can take me a long time to sort through my feelings to really figure out what exactly I'm feeling, and why, and what precipitated the feeling.

That's another 'problem' I have sometimes. I'm much better in email/ web forums because I can take a lot of time to sort through my thoughts and write them out; if I'm randomly asked how I feel about a deep subject though (even though I have a LOT of thoughts/opinions about it) - say, religion, or my dreams...I lock up and my mind is often empty. Or, I have so many convoluted thoughts about the subject (example - I could, and have, written 70+ pages on religion/metaphysics). I don't do well being asked questions, I guess...I bumble around often-times when trying to speak my mind verbally, on complex subjects.

Activities are IDEAL for me. I don't like talking, per se, although I don't have anything against it either. It's just I can really let loose and it'll be much more likely for me to be talkative, and open up, if I'm doing things with another person. Movies, climbing, hiking, kayaking, anything outdoors for me.

However, if the person is doing something that *I* like, and I in any way sense the other person isn't really into it and is doing it just for me, I probably wouldn't enjoy it, simply because I know the other person isn't having a good time. Other peoples' discomfort/apathy makes me stressed, because I'm thinking the whole time about how the other person isn't really enjoying himself. So - find something you know BOTH people like!!!!

Finally, I think with an INFJ you DO need patience, because the INFJ will open up in her own time. In a way, I agree that she's 'testing' you in a lot of the beginning stages. I know I do that. I'm very much the observer, and I want to know all about the other person, and if I sense we'll connect, only then will I open up. If I don't sense it's possible, then I won't put much effort into it.

Also, it highly depends on the person. There are times when I am immediately comfortable in opening up and feel I am accepted immediately; there are other times where it takes quite a while for me to feel comfortable, or to feel I know the person well enough. The people I tend to open up to immediately are the ones I sense are being TRUE to themselves, and aren't trying to prove anything to anyone - they just ARE who they are - no excuses, no shamefulness, not into status, not superficial, and very free-thinking and individual. (by the way, I'm an enneagram 4 too). However, as an addendum: The person has to have a good heart. I have no tolerance for mean-spirited people. Also, I have a few values in life that are absolutely important to me (for me - nature is probably #1), and if it isn't important to the other person, I'll have no interest/respect whatsoever. INFJ's each have their own set of values and priorities in life, and they aren't going to associate with people who noticeably do not carry those values.

As for why I 'test' the other person, and want to see what the other person is about first, before I might open up? Well, I don't want to change the other person, or force him to be someone who he truly isn't. I want to see the 'real him' unfold before me - I don't want him to tweak who he is, just to get a favorable response from me, or just to get me to open up a bit more. Probably totally unrealistic of me...but I like to believe the 'right' person will just mesh with me right off the bat (and, I have had relationships like that, although, haha, it might be a horrible theory or way to proceed, since they ultimately didn't work out!! :-)

On the other hand - and I know this probably sounds contradictory but I don't think it is - if the guy really likes me and is really into me, then I want him to demonstrate it. The few times I've become emotionally vulnerable in relationships, was with extroverted men who quietly tried to break through some of my defenses, because they wanted to get to know me. It's so rare that men even notice my existance (and I don't think I'm unattractive, actually I think I'm ok for my age!), that the ones who actually try to get to know me, and genuinely are intrigued/interested in me, have already broken through to me in many ways. Gently pushing through - out of caring - has worked for me more than once. ;-P
That's exactly how I am as well. Great job on that post; I don't think I could ever describe things even remotely as in depth as you have.

The vast majority of the time, it takes 3 or 4 months, sometimes even more, for me to actually be able to say anything more than "hi" or "good morning" to someone, and even then, it's really really difficult and slow to get going. There are extremely few people I can actually fully connect with, and all of them aren't able to spend very much time with me, so I always end up being very lonely, even when there are other people around. Not having someone I can really open up to and talk with about anything really makes me feel lacking. Even when trying to have conversations with people who are obviously very extroverted with everyone else (like where I work), it's almost like interrogation (minus the violence, of course); I end up having to start EVERY topic of conversation, and if I don't keep it going, it just stops, or they get distracted by someone else, and then it's like I'm not even there--rarely ever does anyone actually seem genuinely interested in me, and nobody.....and I mean NOBODY.....ever starts conversations with me or asks things about me (aside from those few exceptions). I do the best I can, and it's absurdly difficult a lot of the time, but seriously, what's up with me ending up talking more than the extroverts when I try to get to know them and give them opportunities to get to know me as well? It's like they pretty much clam up around me, and that makes no sense at all.

[Persephone]

My ex-best friend is an INFJ. She and I met at a young age; we went to school together and due to mutual introversion, we found solace in each other's seclusion and silence. We hit it off right away (she was open, friendly and caring) and became the best of friends (she confessed that first; I was unwilling to reveal how much she meant to me as a friend before she does. Self defense mechanism is how I see it). However, after she left for another continent, our communication became more distant (it's to be expected, of course, both being introverts). I visited her three times, noticing each time that we've drifted further apart. I was always the more extroverted of the two and I was always the one who initiated conversations and planned events (although she did not object; she was always happy to come along). For some years, that worked. But I started to note that I'm always the one sending more e-mails and replying them even if they didn't need replying; trying to keep the conversation going. I was always revealing about my own troubles and feelings; I opened up to her like no one else; she was my confidant (but for some reason she did not feel inclined to return the favor). It occurred to me that a friendship should be two-sided and she being an introvert is no excuse for blowing me off when I'm not making the effort, so I've stopped communication all together and if she wants to contact me, she'll know where to find me. I was trying to get her to initiate something for once, but it seems that it backfired; my pride wouldn't allow me to care for her more than she cares for me. Now we ended up not talking at all even if both are online. Sometimes she still says 'hi' for, I think, old times' sake; I try to do the same whenever I can be bothered (yes, it's been reduced to that. My new ISTJ friend has proven more interesting and talkative than she is. It's surprising how much we have in common but differ at the same time).

[abski83]

The love of my life, my tokwa, is an INFJ. Most of my close friends are INFJ, and male.

What I know:
They can smell from afar and see right through you. They feel deeply. They usually have profound insights and sense the underbelly of most things immediately.

Sincerity and patience always help.

[Keoren]

Dated an INFJ once.

The idea of dating another freaks me out.

[Zero Angel]

Yep, I know how that is all too well....

That's exactly how I am as well. Great job on that post; I don't think I could ever describe things even remotely as in depth as you have.

The vast majority of the time, it takes 3 or 4 months, sometimes even more, for me to actually be able to say anything more than "hi" or "good morning" to someone, and even then, it's really really difficult and slow to get going. There are extremely few people I can actually fully connect with, and all of them aren't able to spend very much time with me, so I always end up being very lonely, even when there are other people around. Not having someone I can really open up to and talk with about anything really makes me feel lacking. Even when trying to have conversations with people who are obviously very extroverted with everyone else (like where I work), it's almost like interrogation (minus the violence, of course); I end up having to start EVERY topic of conversation, and if I don't keep it going, it just stops, or they get distracted by someone else, and then it's like I'm not even there--rarely ever does anyone actually seem genuinely interested in me, and nobody.....and I mean NOBODY.....ever starts conversations with me or asks things about me (aside from those few exceptions). I do the best I can, and it's absurdly difficult a lot of the time, but seriously, what's up with me ending up talking more than the extroverts when I try to get to know them and give them opportunities to get to know me as well? It's like they pretty much clam up around me, and that makes no sense at all.
This is highly interesting. I can completely identify with cascademn's post as well. I find that I can often act as a 'tuning fork' for other peoples feelings, drawing them in and amplifying them. Like if I sense tension from the other party, if I can't dispel the tension right away then it might increase until I have to withdraw. Introverted intuition as a function is very good at taking a single point of data (or multiple) and extrapolating it, which is why INFJ's can understand what kind of emotional state a person is in, even before they do. Personally, I find this ability terrifying for the previously mentioned reasons.

If i'm in a neurotic state, then data could be extrapolated incorrectly, since Ni is a lot based on subjectivity (and yes, this can be VERY accurate in some cirumstances, but not when emotions weight the data too much in the wrong directions)

I find that I have easier relations with other NJ types. NJ's are often good at long range linear thinking from my experience, and we can first discuss our subjective conclusions on an issue of interest, then get into specifics. NP's can be a lot of fun, but I sometimes find myself being derailed from their train of thought. ENTP's are different and I get along great with them, because their ability to generate ideas helps to populate my inner world, while my Ni gives them something to spring more ideas off of, or can refine one of their own trains of thought.

As to my relations with others, its probably not that great. I'm pretty much a hermit, and I assume give off vibes of arrogance -- when it is not true arrogance, but a defense mechanism gone awry.

Dated an INFJ once.

The idea of dating another freaks me out.
Interesting. Can you elaborate on why it didnt work?

[Keoren]

Interesting. Can you elaborate on why it didnt work?

The crusader mentality.

[msg_v2]

My sister is an INFJ, and she's great, but I don't think I would ever date someone like her. She has a way of sensing even things like mild annoyance, and then she draws me into a fight like that, over something that i didn't even think was worth expressing in the first place. I try to avoid fighting with her for my mom's sake, but she doesn't know how to drop it. We understand each other to a point, we just fight, often.

In short, judging by my sister (i'm sure one person isn't a big enough data set), they're nice, but touchy. Easy to offend, especially when one isn't trying to.

I'd imagine a romantic relationship with someone like that would be hell.

[A Schnitzel]

I'd imagine a romantic relationship like that would be hell.
Good advice. Incest never ends well.

[msg_v2]

Good advice. Incest never ends well.

You know this from experience?

[notjeffgoldblum]

You know this from experience?

:stupid:

[A Schnitzel]

You know this from experience?
Silly. INTPs never experience anything. They just talk about and analyze concepts objectively without actually doing anything.

[Disquisitive]

I'm married to an INFJ. lol, he never knew what hit him. I decided to pursue a relationship with him because it made sense. Here was a male that I could get on with in a romantic way, and I could see it being permanent, so I went for it. He, on the other hand, had no idea that I was that serious until I proposed to him.

Mine likes a lot of physical contact, so I've trained myself to be more tactile with him than comes naturally to me. We sometimes find ourselves at odds when I appeal solely to logic in an argument or discussion, and there is sometimes friction over my organizational habits, but other than that, we get on really well.

[cafe]

My sister is an INFJ, and she's great, but I don't think I would ever date someone like her. She has a way of sensing even things like mild annoyance, and then she draws me into a fight like that, over something that i didn't even think was worth expressing in the first place. I try to avoid fighting with her for my mom's sake, but she doesn't know how to drop it. We understand each other to a point, we just fight, often.

In short, judging by my sister (i'm sure one person isn't a big enough data set), they're nice, but touchy. Easy to offend, especially when one isn't trying to.

I'd imagine a romantic relationship with someone like that would be hell.
My husband refuses to fight with me. I gave up a long time ago, so now, if he's annoyed or grumbling or whatever, I just figure it'll pass and don't bother myself with it. It's no fun to fight by yourself.

[Naxx]

Infjs are like card board boxes.

Boxes are naked and weaken under water.

In conclusion Infjs when naked are vulnerable to water.

You cannot prove me wrong, I have evidence and I've back this up with -my- logic.

[cafe]

We're vulnerable to water? Uh-oh. :unsure:


I'm melting! I'm meeellltttiiingggg . . . ! ! ! http://fc07.deviantart.com/fs32/f/2008/201/d/1/Emoticon__Witch_Melt_by_Con_S.gif

[SilentlyHonest]

Infjs are like card board boxes.

Boxes are naked and weaken under water.

In conclusion Infjs when naked are vulnerable to water.

You cannot prove me wrong, I have evidence and I've back this up with -my- logic.

I admit this makes showering quite difficult.

[Zero Angel]

That's great. Now they're gonna use water based attacks on us.

Thanks a lot

[Taylor]

I've been dating an INFJ male for the past...well, since like late April or May this year, so as far as teenage romance goes: a while.

Because he seems so standoffish and more the logical type before you get to know him, I would have never guessed that he uses touch and gives looks to express his feelings moreso than talking (and he has some rich feelings). Never overtly sexual since I'm wary of any sexual experience and he's extremely respectful to me...I've just always been uncomfortable touching people, so he's really helping me with that insecurity just by asking me to cuddle with him :lol:. It's easier to avoid awkwardness when someone else initiates it.

Along with touch, said INFJ also enjoys expressing his feelings in other indirect ways, such as buying me stuff. Thankfully he's broke most of the time; not that I don't like getting gifts, it's just hard to do when I spend most of my $ on books and not really other people. In other words, receiving anything pretty much entails feelings of obligation for me, even if that wasn't the intent of the giver.

On the other hand, INFJ boyf's indirect, occasionally vague expression of ideas can get me pretty frustrated; I mean, it'd be nice to hear a "thank you" every once in a blue moon or a compliment fueled by something other than mild jealousy; ie., "you're so much more intelligent than I am" as opposed to, simply, "you're so smart :p", even if I do like a good ego stroking. I'll admit, I'm coming to not only understand but accept and enjoy his nonverbal ways lately.

A relationship between the two rarest types according to most sources (even if INTJ's insist on being in the top two) with him being the INFJ and me (female) being the INTP to boot, it's the sort of thing that doesn't happen all the time, and is very beneficial for both of us. We're sort of a couple of weirdos who understand each other when no one else does, and I love him for that.

all in all: my experience with INFJ = extremely positive and highly recommended :thumbup:

[TehDMV]

I must say, I'm really intrigued by the INFJ MBTI type, more so than any other type. I'm even more so intrigued by the INTP/INFJ relationship. I only know one INFJ directly, and I'm dating her. Luckily she approached me on her own, initiated the friendship, and started showing a romantic interest. It would have never happened otherwise, just because I never initiate or make an effort to keep any personal relationships. I confused her with an ENFJ for a while too, due to how sociable she seemed, and her hippie stuff. :p
All in all, most fulfilling relationship I've been in yet. It's only the 3rd one where it's lasted more than 2 weeks, and where I've been in love. It's the first time I've been in love with someone and I could talk to on a intellectual level too, mainly about religion and psychology. And she listens and understands and has interesting views :grin:.

[Sarcasticus]

I confused her with an ENFJ for a while too, due to how sociable she seemed, and her hippie stuff.

Hippie stuff. :banana: Sounds like my INFJ gf. How are you enjoying all the vegetarian meals and the sandalwood bath soap?

[nobarcode]

When the argument/conversation about what plant to plant and where it boils down to a dust ball in the corner of the room as a point of contention in some sort of nebulas sense that has some sort of meaning, for her; that's when I withdrawal my motivation for disusing anything further. We'll talk about it tomorrow. However, there is the trust that I will discuss the matter further..........................god forbid.

9 times out of 10 that works for both of us.

[Llewellyn]

One friend of me is INFJ I surely think. Somehow to me it seems a stable type, though with inner complexities (part of which I read and could recognize in him).

Also I read ESTP is the typical man; does that make INFJ the typical woman?
And does that make INTP half typical man, half typical woman, and to that with more outward contradiction?

[Zero Angel]

Not really. INFJ women aren't that common. About half of the male population is ST's (which is significant given that ST's account for only 1/4 of the MBTI groups) and nearly half of the female population is comprised of SF's of various sorts.

[hojo]

This is funny, I know THREE infjs, one of them is my sister. She is pretty logical and objective in her thinking, which i approve of, but is prone to making ridiculously bad judgment calls on somethings. As far as her and me, she was always the over achiever as far as school went, we usually got along ok, but maybe thats just because we had to.

[Llewellyn]

At the store I saw a girl all in red clothes and other colours (posted about this in the thread Dating Struggle too), looking a bit at me, standing on the side... I guessed she must be INFJ. I just hope I see her again one time and do have the consciousness and strength to approach her. Like some of you, I'm excited about this type.

[lbloom]

At the store I saw a girl all in red clothes and other colours (posted about this in the thread Dating Struggle too), looking a bit at me, standing on the side... I guessed she must be INFJ. I just hope I see her again one time and do have the consciousness and strength to approach her. Like some of you, I'm excited about this type.

Sweet.

[Llewellyn]

Sweet.

Well, I don't mean it sweet ;) It's my flaw...

[EmmaPeel]

The INFJs I know are all different. The female is the completely unspiritual and usually grouchy. The male is very laid back and always has something humorous to add. I would never think they were the same type if I didn't know already.

I do not like to wear red myself.

[neuromac]

I stumbled across this thread while looking at INFJ compatibilities. I am a female INFJ, and my scores in all of the INFJ categories are very strong (except for J, which could be considered moderate). I guess you could say I am a very strong INFJ. INFJs are quite an interesting personality. Maybe that's why we are the rarest type. Because of that, if any guys have any questions you want to ask about INFJ girls, feel free to email me at s.eysenck@gmail.com and I'll try to give you my perspective on it. I already have a boyfriend, but am just trying to help out those who may have questions. One final note: never underestimate the emotional sensitivity of an INFJ. We are very sensitive to emotions, would do anything to keep someone from suffering, and are easily hurt by criticism and sharp words. Be gentle with us and we'll love you with all of our hearts! :-)

[Llewellyn]

The INFJs I know are all different. The female is the completely unspiritual and usually grouchy. The male is very laid back and always has something humorous to add. I would never think they were the same type if I didn't know already.


I looked up INFJ at YouTube and found some that looked like my I-guess-INFJ friend and some that seemed really different. Maybe this is inherent to the type.

[nazcapilot]

I wouldn't have guessed that such animosity existed towards INFJs. You never know... :P

[Notsoplainjane]

Wow didn't know INTPs dislike INFJs so much ! But then may be I should have :whyi: -- still having trouble recovering from a break up with an INTP.... more so because I thought he understood me like nobody had ever done before and I never saw it coming.

ps: INFJs do like to wear bright colors, including red :)

[Thevenin]

Wow didn't know INTPs dislike INFJs so much !

Happily married to an INFJ for many years and, hopefully, many more.

[Return to Sender]

I'm not sure that I've ever met a female INFJ my age. Where are you all? :mellow:

[Lucybee]

Hi, Abathur. I am an INFJ (female), so I thought I should try to help out if at all possible.:happpy:

INFJs do tend to value the written word more than speech. I had an ISTP guy friend for a while, and the only deep conversations we had were over the internet, which worked really well for both of us. But I wanted to be able to communicate better in person.

Anyway, I met a female INTP in school two years ago. She is very reserved, and I tend to be the same way. I know exactly what you mean about the wall. It's normal, believe you me. You'll find yourself running into them a lot. But I found that with two introverts, it just takes time. This year we are best friends. I really had to push to get her to talk to me, and I would have loved it if she had tried as hard as I did. It's a team effort, because although I like to think that I am open to new people, an INFJ really only needs a few friends who fully understand and appreciate him or her. Making new ones can be challenging.

You also asked if this was typical for my type with everyone. For me, personally, it is. I try to be as warm as I can with every person I meet, but I often feel a wall like the one you mentioned. Then I forget about attempting to reach them. However, I am beginning to realize that these walls go away as people grow and change. I think that, as with most things, just being aware of it, not trying to change it, will make it go away naturally. If the two of you are meant to be friends, she will probably sense it with her super-cool INFJ introverted intuition.:lol:

I hope my rambling can be of service.

[10_percent_ninja]

Does it not then become an exercise in 'wall breaking', or at least in 'boundary transcending'? Some sort of exercise, situation, or event that changes the level of closeness?

[Works]

Hi, Abathur. I am an INFJ (female), so I thought I should try to help out if at all possible.:happpy:

INFJs do tend to value the written word more than speech. I had an ISTP guy friend for a while, and the only deep conversations we had were over the internet, which worked really well for both of us. But I wanted to be able to communicate better in person.

Anyway, I met a female INTP in school two years ago. She is very reserved, and I tend to be the same way. I know exactly what you mean about the wall. It's normal, believe you me. You'll find yourself running into them a lot. But I found that with two introverts, it just takes time. This year we are best friends. I really had to push to get her to talk to me, and I would have loved it if she had tried as hard as I did. It's a team effort, because although I like to think that I am open to new people, an INFJ really only needs a few friends who fully understand and appreciate him or her. Making new ones can be challenging.

You also asked if this was typical for my type with everyone. For me, personally, it is. I try to be as warm as I can with every person I meet, but I often feel a wall like the one you mentioned. Then I forget about attempting to reach them. However, I am beginning to realize that these walls go away as people grow and change. I think that, as with most things, just being aware of it, not trying to change it, will make it go away naturally. If the two of you are meant to be friends, she will probably sense it with her super-cool INFJ introverted intuition.:lol:

I hope my rambling can be of service.

It's like someone summoned you from some netherworld abyss.

Tell me INFJ, what adventure do you seek?

[Curtis24]

Speaking as an INFJ, the best way to break through "the wall" is through sheer honesty. We(or at least I) have to spend a lot of time pretending not to notice all these unspoken cues, nature of the relationship, etc., so an INFJ would probably feel relieved to have someone just put their true feelings and thoughts out into the open.

[Mtsui]

I have an INFJ friend who I'm trying to understand more. She's pretty smart, got into Cambridge for natural sciences. But she's horrible at social ocassions. I mean, she seemed great when I first met her. If she didn't take the test I would of thought she was a ENFJ. But as I observed her a bit more, I realized that all she really did was fake a laugh here and there, then say things like 'ohh noo, that happened? :(' when it's obvious that she doesn't care as much as she shows. Do INFJs do fake stuff like that? Or do they really feel that way without being able to convey it in a convincing way? Or (I think most of you will think I am) am I just so socially incapable that I can't tell what's genuine or not?

What intrigues me is how she's always crying about a guy who she had a 'thing' with. The guy stopped liking her for at least 5 months, but she still cries about him all the time. The first time she cried - okay fair enough. But when it happens repeatedly. . . I honestly have no solution. Is there any way to help her? Or is it an internal process?

[Eric]

ps: INFJs do like to wear bright colors, including red :)
I pretty much only wear black shirts of the different metal bands that I like.

[Lucybee]

I pretty much only wear black shirts of the different metal bands that I like.

Yeah, I actually try to avoid bright colors because they make me look washed out. :happpy: I've always wondered if other INFJs have the slightly vain side.

[mjgjr706]

Bro I have been blessed to fall deeply in love with a BEAUTIFUL INFJ and by the way I am hardcore INTP. Here is all the advise I can give you... Do random acts of love expecting nothing in return. Im telling you the INFJ's I have been around and particularly the one I love picks up on the weirdest things and they can sense when you truely love them and express it through actions. It is completely impossible to plan such occasions, like one time we were at a youth conference and I lost her in the crowd... I began looking for her, she could see me but I had no idea where she was. She watched me as I searched and she told me months later that she thought the way I looked for her was amazing and she loved it. How odd is that? She is very complex and I just never know what action on my part will cause her to feel my love for her... It comes in spurts and usually as a complete shock to me. Like one night I went to paint on my computer and made a painting for her... I wanted everything to represent something about us, she has beautiful green eyes so the center piece of the colage was a big green eye... she flippin freaked, she loved it ! I was shocked again ! Here is the jist of it, dont try so hard to impress and dont try so hard to "win" her. My woman and I started off simply as friends with no intent to be anything else... I wanted to hear what she had to say and I just legitimately loved her in that way first. All you need to do is love her and show it, INFJ can pick up on a faker in like .001 seconds so be true and genuine... You also better be commited to this chick if you want anything to work. When this girl finally does open up you need to take it in like a sponge, you need to baske in it like a sun bathing reptile on a warm rock in the fall. Intimate moments are presious and she needs to see you injoying HER ! ! ! If she opens up she is literally inviting you into a secret place inside her... I cant stress how important that is, its beautiful and magic and you should treat it as such. Also dont be afraid to be enthusiastic about her and whatever part she opens up to you. The most important rule is to be yourself ! I know it sounds cliche but this is epically important because this will also lead to her also feeling free to be herself ! Good luck bro... Keep us posted on how it goes

[MoneyJungle]

Yeah, I actually try to avoid bright colors because they make me look washed out. :happpy: I've always wondered if other INFJs have the slightly vain side.

I have a certain brand of self-hating-vanity. I ping pong back and forth between thinking I am the best thing since sliced bread and worse than oh, let's say Stalin (Hi Karl). I do have a vain side though. I simply won't wear my platform shoes once the goldfish die.

In terms of the thread topic, I can only speak for my own half-assed INfjNess but the best way to get to know me is to slowly coax me from behind my several lines of defense through honesty and actually asking questions. I get tired of always feeling like I'm interrogating people who take no interest in me. Maybe if I get buff and rich enough for someone to overlook my litany of faults, I'll find this person one (Valentine's) day.:wub:

[EmmaPeel]

I think my INFJ is really an ISFJ, which explains why she gets along so well with the ESFx. Or is she just on the fence?

[Zero Angel]

I have a certain brand of self-hating-vanity. I ping pong back and forth between thinking I am the best thing since sliced bread and worse than oh, let's say Stalin (Hi Karl). I do have a vain side though. I simply won't wear my platform shoes once the goldfish die.

In terms of the thread topic, I can only speak for my own half-assed INfjNess but the best way to get to know me is to slowly coax me from behind my several lines of defense through honesty and actually asking questions. I get tired of always feeling like I'm interrogating people who take no interest in me. Maybe if I get buff and rich enough for someone to overlook my litany of faults, I'll find this person one (Valentine's) day.:wub:

Holy crap, this happens to me too (the ping ponging). I mostly only feel good about myself when i'm accomplishing stuff or when someone's like 'are you able to do this?' and i'm like 'yea baby', 'anything you want'. ;)

[overainbows]

I'm an INTP and also tend to think I'm better than others and at the same time I think I'm a piece of crap. Most of the time I feel good about myself and am in that superiorness mood, but I'm never like that kind of people who think they're superior and goes around showing off or humiliating others, this feeling of superiorness just keeps me from mixing with others, that's all. :happpy:

[mszoe]

wow this was an incredibly epic thread!

abarthur, it looks like i am with the masses who would love to hear an update on your experience w the INFJ female!

i thank and echo the intricate honest words of jen(sx10 or something) and cascademn and the other INFJs who gave thorough replies to the OP.

seriously though, i seem to think that i am easy to get to know? haha
the people who have become my closest friends "won me" simply by spending time with me, sharing joy with me, and opening up with me. aka hang out with the INFJ, have fun doing silly things (feeding ducks, wandering thru a museum, people watching and making snide remarks), and speak to me as if you know i am actually paying attention and listening to you.

ps. TMI: INTP partner and i bonded when he asked his curious questions that allowed me to share the info and experience that i had ie. allow the INFJ the "counselor" "teacher" role. and we definitely do and did alot of the things that other INFJs suggested: discussion after movies (esp my fair lady, princess bride, fountainhead), hiking and photography, very long fone convos with comfortable silences. i deeply believe that IN types can converse rather fluidly and endlessly because we lay the stepping stone and allow the other to guide the direction, while maintaining focus on the original topic and the tangents.

i am also available for my personal perspective as an INFJ or as one dating an INTP. (blasted enneagram 2 helper types cant resist offering service!)

[YHWH]

I think my INFJ is really an ISFJ

Sorry to hear that : (

[Timekiller]

INFJs are beyond what I consider great. They might not be my natural match, but INFJ girls are just what keeps me ticking and ready.

From an ANTJ viewpoint, the real problem with INFJs is that pressure to them is rather difficult to achieve. The moment you start pushing forward for a relationship, you are almost guaranteed to get pushed back in a nice, "I don't want to hurt you" manner that is likely to get on your nerves. And due to them being introverted and heavily introspective,not to mention usually very intelligent, you may never know what they actually think about you.
What I've found out is that INFJs are people you have to get to know extremely slowly (which is expecially unnerving for me) to understand and value, but you gotta play your tactics and cards just "right" in order to make things work. INTPs have it easy on that one - they aren't perceived as aggressive and overly assertive, so they can easily act ENTP who naturally attract INFJs.
What is interesting with INFJs though is that they are fiercely loyal like INFPs and also forgiving, unlike INFPs. And they are really gentle beings with a knack for debate like other NJs, though they might get emotional over it.

[Zero Angel]

I'm an INTP and also tend to think I'm better than others and at the same time I think I'm a piece of crap. Most of the time I feel good about myself and am in that superiorness mood, but I'm never like that kind of people who think they're superior and goes around showing off or humiliating others, this feeling of superiorness just keeps me from mixing with others, that's all. :happpy:
I've noticed this tends to be a trait of INTPs. Its more like vacillating between 'I'm smarter than YOU mofo' and 'I wish I was more intelligent', personally I am slightly bothered by the smug self-assuredness of INTPs because it sort of 'imposes' upon my own space where i'm constantly questioning and redefining things and things are rarely black or white but a matter of probability. For someone to express 'im the smartest person in the world' presents itself with the challenge 'should I try to knock them off their pedestal and risk upsetting my harmony with them' or 'should I just walk away and leave them to their own illusions of grandiosity'. I usually choose the latter.

Most hangups that N types have tend to center around their intelligence. Being a J who was often praised in school I simply feel like I have to do better to deserve that praise so am constantly competing with myself. I'm not sure if this is a common INFJ problem, but it does tend to happen with some INFJ males -- which might explain some of the touchiness that some males have in regards to their intelligence, since we're used to 'winning' I guess.


INFJs are beyond what I consider great. They might not be my natural match, but INFJ girls are just what keeps me ticking and ready.

From an ANTJ viewpoint, the real problem with INFJs is that pressure to them is rather difficult to achieve. The moment you start pushing forward for a relationship, you are almost guaranteed to get pushed back in a nice, "I don't want to hurt you" manner that is likely to get on your nerves. And due to them being introverted and heavily introspective,not to mention usually very intelligent, you may never know what they actually think about you.
What I've found out is that INFJs are people you have to get to know extremely slowly (which is expecially unnerving for me) to understand and value, but you gotta play your tactics and cards just "right" in order to make things work. INTPs have it easy on that one - they aren't perceived as aggressive and overly assertive, so they can easily act ENTP who naturally attract INFJs.
What is interesting with INFJs though is that they are fiercely loyal like INFPs and also forgiving, unlike INFPs. And they are really gentle beings with a knack for debate like other NJs, though they might get emotional over it.

Great post, and all of this is rather spot on. I'm flattered that you think so highly of INFJs based on the ones you know (rather than the ideal). There are many different subtypes of INFJs, but you are describing quite a few of them right here.

[overainbows]

I've noticed this tends to be a trait of INTPs. Its more like vacillating between 'I'm smarter than YOU mofo' and 'I wish I was more intelligent', personally I am slightly bothered by the smug self-assuredness of INTPs because it sort of 'imposes' upon my own space where i'm constantly questioning and redefining things and things are rarely black or white but a matter of probability. For someone to express 'im the smartest person in the world' presents itself with the challenge 'should I try to knock them off their pedestal and risk upsetting my harmony with them' or 'should I just walk away and leave them to their own illusions of grandiosity'. I usually choose the latter.

Yes, it's always about my intelligence. Usually I overlook the simplest things and when someone at college, for example, knows something very basic I don't or I couldn't explain very well I go through a whole crisis. I'm working on it, though.

About you being bothered by this self-assuredness, it reminded me of my IxFP friend. I perceived sometimes she's bothered too, specially when I talk about others I perceive as inferior to me (I don't like to feed this idea, but I have it). But she never confronts me and actually I perceived she feels a little insecure (it's not the right word, can't find it now) when I try to have more intelectual conversations. She's not much into reading, I think that's why. I have to work on it too.

[gardnerj]

I'm an INFJ magnet -- friendwise, and womanwise.

[Curtis24]

Definitely agree with the INFJ veering between a superiority and inferiority complex. However, its not necessarily "thinking you're smarter than everybody vs. thinking you're dumber than everybody". INFJs always think they're smarter/"righter" than everybody(thanks to Ni). However, I find I do have problems thinking I'm as strong/capable/as a good a person as everybody else.

[t_x]

Read through this thread the other day and just wanted to say thanks to everyone for the insight. Ended up posting a rant in another INFJ thread about an INFJ friend I have been growing apart from (in retrospect ranting because I really missed her)...I was trying to give her space but it had been awhile..but she finally called today...and I think now I have a somewhat better grasp on how to make things better between us.

[Technical]

Definitely agree with the INFJ veering between a superiority and inferiority complex. However, its not necessarily "thinking you're smarter than everybody vs. thinking you're dumber than everybody". INFJs always think they're smarter/"righter" than everybody(thanks to Ni). However, I find I do have problems thinking I'm as strong/capable/as a good a person as everybody else.
It's Fi, if it's any Jungian func.. Go ahead and feel righter.


Introverted feeling is determined principally by the subjective factor. This means that the feeling-judgment differs quite as essentially from extraverted feeling as does the introversion of thinking from extraversion. It is unquestionably difficult to give an intellectual presentation of the introverted feeling process, or even an approximate [p. 490] description of it, although the peculiar character of this kind of feeling simply stands out as soon as one becomes aware of it at all. Since it is primarily controlled by subjective preconditions, and is only secondarily concerned with the object, this feeling appears much less upon the surface and is, as a rule, misunderstood. It is a feeling which apparently depreciates the object; hence it usually becomes noticeable in its negative manifestations. The existence of a positive feeling can be inferred only indirectly, as it were. Its aim is not so much to accommodate to the objective fact as to stand above it, since its whole unconscious effort is to give reality to the underlying images. It is, as it were, continually seeking an image which has no existence in reality, but of which it has had a sort of previous vision. From objects that can never fit in with its aim it seems to glide unheedingly away. It strives after an inner intensity, to which at the most, objects contribute only an accessory stimulus. The depths of this feeling can only be divined -- they can never be clearly comprehended. It makes men silent and difficult of access; with the sensitiveness of the mimosa, it shrinks from the brutality of the object, in order to expand into the depths of the subject. It puts forward negative feeling-judgments or assumes an air of profound indifference, as a measure of self-defence.

Primordial images are, of course, just as much idea as feeling. Thus, basic ideas such as God, freedom, immortality are just as much feeling-values as they are significant as ideas. Everything, therefore, that has been said of the introverted thinking refers equally to introverted feeling, only here everything is felt while there it was thought. But the fact that thoughts can generally be expressed more intelligibly than feelings demands a more than ordinary descriptive or artistic capacity before the real wealth of this feeling can be even approximately [p. 491] presented or communicated to the outer world. Whereas subjective thinking, on account of its unrelatedness, finds great difficulty in arousing an adequate understanding, the same, though in perhaps even higher degree, holds good for subjective feeling. In order to communicate with others it has to find an external form which is not only fitted to absorb the subjective feeling in a satisfying expression, but which must also convey it to one's fellowman in such a way that a parallel process takes place in him. Thanks to the relatively great internal (as well as external) similarity of the human being, this effect can actually be achieved, although a form acceptable to feeling is extremely difficult to find, so long as it is still mainly orientated by the fathomless store of primordial images. But, when it becomes falsified by an egocentric attitude, it at once grows unsympathetic, since then its major concern is still with the ego. Such a case never fails to create an impression of sentimental self-love, with its constant effort to arouse interest and even morbid self-admiration just as the subjectified consciousness of the introverted thinker, striving after an abstraction of abstractions, only attains a supreme intensity of a thought-process in itself quite empty, so the intensification of egocentric feeling only leads to a contentless passionateness, which merely feels itself. This is the mystical, ecstatic stage, which prepares the way over into the extraverted functions repressed by feeling, just as introverted thinking is pitted against a primitive feeling, to which objects attach themselves with magical force, so introverted feeling is counterbalanced by a primitive thinking, whose concretism and slavery to facts passes all bounds. Continually emancipating itself from the relation to the object, this feeling creates a freedom, both of action and of conscience, that is only answerable to the subject, and that may even renounce all traditional values. But so much the more [p. 492] does unconscious thinking fall a victim to the power of objective facts.

[Jeneivou]

I am currently in a relationship with INFJ male and it is increasingly stressful to consider all the best options to communicate with him everytime. He is probably unaware of how hard I am struggling to talk to him because i am in emotional conflict with my ego and in fear that if i do speak, it will only drive him further 'in' his cave or whatever.

>> How should i approach an INFJ? indirectly? directly?

>> Is this something that will change overtime with support, or will INFJ give up because they cannot understand the issue?

>> If so, what is the best way to guide him to my perspective?

[Chunes]

Understand that opening up to you, especially verbally, may be extremely awkward for him and tell him you understand and that you appreciate his efforts. Gently reinforce this notion over time so that he understands it's okay to share his feelings and thoughts with you. Whatever you do, don't criticize those feelings or thoughts, or he will probably take it as an attack on his permission to open up, rather than the content of the thoughts themselves.

If you must criticize the content, make very clear to him the difference.
I know ENTPs like to have back-and-forth debates where you chisel away at ideas. This may not be the ideal way to communicate with him until he's more secure. Or if you do, again, make it very clear that it's just a game—nothing personal.

[pocohauntus]

or will INFJ give up because they cannot understand the issue?

this infj will and already has done this. ^

[Jeneivou]

this infj will and already has done this. ^

How would i kno if he had already given up?..
is it at least gonna be announced?....

[Neville]

How would i kno if he had already given up?..
is it at least gonna be announced?....

It's never announced. I just cut things off. Then usually disappear.

[Jeneivou]

I do sincerely appreciate the effort and i often acknowledge it.
When do yu kno that. yu are emotionally secure in a relationship?

Before yu are comfortable with opening up yur feelings,
What has to happen in order for yu to feel secure?

[Jeneivou]

Nice, thats very decent of yu.

[angelique]

Aren't INFJs the rarest type in the world? I known one in person and he a bit of a nutter, however the other INFJ I know only from the internet, and I can write and chat with him on a variety of topics, particularly because he appears to be a nuanced thinker who is knowledgable on a variety of topics and is a bit of an aesthete who enjoys art, travel and cuisine.

I'm certain my dynamic with him would be different for an INTP whose dynamic might not include the scintillating aspects of our conversations, primarily because he appears to be a good listener who can often read my thoughts before I say them.

I think INTPs have a charming way of going off topic and speaking at length on an esoteric subject that may or may not be of interest for the listener- therefore I can assume if you're careful about listening to the INFJ's voice or the body language then you can accurately determine if she is interested in the conversation or not.

[gator]

I hate the testing part. It always puts me off balance and I always get the feeling that I didn't quite say the right thing, but that my performance was not mediocre enough for him to end our relationship. The only reason why I bother is because he's quite intelligent and I find him really refreshing to talk to when he's not trying to suss me out.

[gr8ness97]

I'm an INFJ magnet -- friendwise, and womanwise.

Quoted since this applies to me too...

[BEaSt]

INFJs somehow think they're smart and able to look deeply into my mind and behaviors but, in fact, they're generally just deluded. I have found a lot of INFJs to be among the "almost smart" camp. You know, the type of person who is aware he is more intelligent than the masses, but isn't aware he's still down the totem poll from genuine intellectuals quite a ways. And, he acts like he's incredibly insightful and everyone is so dumb. These people really are infuriating, far worse than the masses themselves. I think a lack of critical analysis and an inability to be objective leads INFJs to this frame of mind. I think this is also related to why you think others go around and fill in the blanks and project elements of themselves onto others. I'm sure everyone does that to an extent, but I'm just as sure that INFJs do it more than most. Again, it stems from their curious lack of insight about how they actually relate to the greater whole despite being intuitives. The self-absorption is just so overwhelming. Perhaps this is a good example of the Ni-Ne divide, and why Ne people are superior 'big picture' thinkers than Ni people.

One of my good friends is INFJ, she's AWESOME and not like this at all. But I know a couple others that do this and I WANT TO PUNCH THEM IN THEIR SMUG FUCKING FACES!

[kali]

INFJ humour

[md5fungi]

I think INFJ is a pretty cool guy. eh bitches at peopel and doesn't afraid of anything.

[vilke]

Bro I have been blessed to fall deeply in love with a BEAUTIFUL INFJ and by the way I am hardcore INTP. Here is all the advise I can give you... Do random acts of love expecting nothing in return. Im telling you the INFJ's I have been around and particularly the one I love picks up on the weirdest things and they can sense when you truely love them and express it through actions. It is completely impossible to plan such occasions, like one time we were at a youth conference and I lost her in the crowd... I began looking for her, she could see me but I had no idea where she was. She watched me as I searched and she told me months later that she thought the way I looked for her was amazing and she loved it. How odd is that? She is very complex and I just never know what action on my part will cause her to feel my love for her... It comes in spurts and usually as a complete shock to me. Like one night I went to paint on my computer and made a painting for her... I wanted everything to represent something about us, she has beautiful green eyes so the center piece of the colage was a big green eye... she flippin freaked, she loved it ! I was shocked again ! Here is the jist of it, dont try so hard to impress and dont try so hard to "win" her. My woman and I started off simply as friends with no intent to be anything else... I wanted to hear what she had to say and I just legitimately loved her in that way first. All you need to do is love her and show it, INFJ can pick up on a faker in like .001 seconds so be true and genuine... You also better be commited to this chick if you want anything to work. When this girl finally does open up you need to take it in like a sponge, you need to baske in it like a sun bathing reptile on a warm rock in the fall. Intimate moments are presious and she needs to see you injoying HER ! ! ! If she opens up she is literally inviting you into a secret place inside her... I cant stress how important that is, its beautiful and magic and you should treat it as such. Also dont be afraid to be enthusiastic about her and whatever part she opens up to you. The most important rule is to be yourself ! I know it sounds cliche but this is epically important because this will also lead to her also feeling free to be herself ! Good luck bro... Keep us posted on how it goes

So impressive..
And I have a crush on one INTP - thats why I'm here
(my first post) :)

[digesthisickness]

So impressive..
And I have a crush on one INTP - thats why I'm here
(my first post) :)

aww. good luck with that.

[johnnyz.86]

The one girl that I had always felt a unique connection with, gotten along well with, and for some time wanted to be with is apparently an INFJ.

We're good friends now and had liked each other or something at different points in time. We grew close just by being ourselves and sharing our thoughts and feelings. We probably connected a lot by talking online and exchanging emails, and eventually sharing interests like watching movies and commenting on them. I don't recall a wall or stage, but neither of us had been hurt, and maybe I just failed the stage part.

Since you both have been hurt, I'd suggest just sharing your thoughts and ideas while enjoying similar interests. She's an INFJ and would probably be focusing on her feelings toward you (and not your feelings toward her like many others), so I wouldn't place a great deal on trying to show her how you feel, but rather just connecting on different levels. Of course, you need to show that you enjoy her company, and the connection has to be genuine and sincere.

[1198]

Actually, I am part INTP and part INFJ. Tests can classify me as both (;

[Neville]

That's amazing! I'm half hobbit.