Would You Be Your Own Lawyer?

[FranG]

Just curious. I figure this question is appropriate for INTPs.

My cousin just got convicted of a crime he didn't commit and got sentenced 7 years. Anyway, his lawyer was the worst I seen in my life (a paid attorney, not a p.d.). I think his lawyer was in cohoots with the judge, or was at least fearful of him. I walked away from his trial thinking shit if I get in trouble I'm representing myself.

[Ferrus]

Er... without legal training you would be slaughtered by the opposition.

[Hustler]

Just curious. I figure this question is appropriate for INTPs.

My cousin just got convicted of a crime he didn't commit and got sentenced 7 years. Anyway, his lawyer was the worst I seen in my life (a paid attorney, not a p.d.). I think his lawyer was in cohoots with the judge, or was at least fearful of him. I walked away from his trial thinking shit if I get in trouble I'm representing myself.

I just had the opposite experience. I was charged with two felonies, convicted of a misdemeanor, and sentenced to a $1,000 fine. Now, this could have a lot to do with some inequalities in and uneven application of the justice system, but I definitely attribute my success to my lawyer (plus I was lucky that my case was in a very gray area with no hard and fast legal precedent to fall back on for either side). I think it's important to do your research and find the most capable lawyer you can afford, and basically get yourself "overrepresented." I did this by speaking with a very skilled, successful civil litigator who knows a lot about my area of "business" that I know for recommendations in the criminal defense area and took it from there.

Then you either have to cop a plea or roll the dice and get lucky with the jury and the trial.

[shum]

Just curious. I figure this question is appropriate for INTPs.

My cousin just got convicted of a crime he didn't commit and got sentenced 7 years. Anyway, his lawyer was the worst I seen in my life (a paid attorney, not a p.d.). I think his lawyer was in cohoots with the judge, or was at least fearful of him. I walked away from his trial thinking shit if I get in trouble I'm representing myself.

i represented myself once at a housing tribunal ( renter's court) and i won.

I WON!!!

all you need is documentation and be able to present it.

i can present anything.

back in high school my buddy ( omg my buddy! i dont think about him as often now. i am going to have to call his mother to see where he is now) and i did a project thing on boats. me- i am lazy. he-dyslexic but very knowledgable about boats.

anyway he choked during the presentation and i had to take over. i knew nothin about boats or ships or whatever. so i glanced at his overhead projector image thing out of the corner of my eye and babbled on until we had the best presentation of the whole class.

it is all about salesmanship.

i figure that the really good lawyers watch all those infomercials to pick up tips.

dumb as it sounds..that shit really works.

[shum]

I just had the opposite experience. I was charged with two felonies, convicted of a misdemeanor, and sentenced to a $1,000 fine. Now, this could have a lot to do with some inequalities in and uneven application of the justice system, but I definitely attribute my success to my lawyer (plus I was lucky that my case was in a very gray area with no hard and fast legal precedent to fall back on for either side). I think it's important to do your research and find the most capable lawyer you can afford, and basically get yourself "overrepresented." I did this by speaking with a very skilled, successful civil litigator who knows a lot about my area of "business" I know for recommendations in the criminal defense area and took it from there.

Then you either have to cop a plea or roll the dice and get lucky with the jury and the trial.

hustlebunny,

what type do you think your litigator was?

[Hustler]

what type do you think your litigator was?

The guy I asked for the recommendation was an ENTP, and the guy who was recommended to me was an ISTP.

[shum]

if i had the chance... i would have got you off.

[inspectorgadget]

if i had the chance... i would have got you off.

VERY BAD! I'm going to sue you for indecency! You better get a good lawyer... you caused irreparable to my wittle bwain :(

[inspectorgadget]

Just curious. I figure this question is appropriate for INTPs.

My cousin just got convicted of a crime he didn't commit and got sentenced 7 years. Anyway, his lawyer was the worst I seen in my life (a paid attorney, not a p.d.). I think his lawyer was in cohoots with the judge, or was at least fearful of him. I walked away from his trial thinking shit if I get in trouble I'm representing myself.

Is he appealing? What are his current options? How much did he pay for that lawyer?

[caybo]

If I knew exactly what I was being charged for, and knew why I was innocent, and had the basic idea of how to present it- I would want to represent myself, but my parents would think otherwise.
I'd probably end up taking any case I represent myself in to the supreme court...

[BerberElla]

If I knew how to I would try, my current solicitor is crap and if I wasn't this passive person I would so fire him and do this myself.

[libertarianjim]

if i had the chance... i would have got you off.

Shum, you can get me off any time.

[zhang_bob]

Er... without legal training you would be slaughtered by the opposition.

Tommy Sheridan is doing ok against Rupert Murdoch's News Group Newspapers Ltd.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tommy_Sheridan_defamation_case)

Also, Tommy Sheridan's friend George Galloway did ok in the US Senate committee.

[Gala]

I've been through the family law courts on custody, access and guardianship issues, and its not a place you ever want to go without a lawyer. Apaet from anything else, very little actually happens in the court room, and you only get a couple of seconds to speak. So being eloquent won't get you anywhere. Having detailed knowledge of the law will give a very slight advantage. Having a lawyer who plays golf with the judge is everything.

[ApeTheDog]

Yes, I would be, because then I wouldn't be in the accused's seat. Wait... this is a paradox. I could be my own lawyer, thus being someone else, thus not being convicted and simultaneously striking up a nice, decent paycheque, but if I begin being my lawyer, I cease to be myself, and my lawyer-entity which has spawned from my defendants entity ceases to exist alongside with it.

So, I change my answer to: No. I'd rather be George Clooney.

[Madrigal]

Would be nice to choose my own lawyer, except that doesn't get you anywhere when the police is behind most organized crime in your country, political structures protect the police, and judges rule in favour of that mafia out of greed, or fear for their own lives.

What do you do when the entire system is corrupt from top to bottom? Get a good lawyer? No.

[ApeTheDog]

I don't know if the government, corrupt as it may be, would really get involved in the simple parking ticket violation you'd stand trial for, Dorothy. For major crimes, maybe - but not for whatever trouble you'd get into.

[Madrigal]

I don't know if the government, corrupt as it may be, would really get involved in the simple parking ticket violation you'd stand trial for, Dorothy. For major crimes, maybe - but not for whatever trouble you'd get into.

Haha. I could probably one day get a parking ticket if having a car didn't expose you to car-hijackings, car theft (which supports a network of stolen car part sales, which is in turn supported by an association between lumpen delincuents and the police), and if I didn't live in the country with the highest road accident rate in the world. :)

[ApeTheDog]

I hear argentina is getting the xbox 360 soon, though, so not all is lost.

[Madrigal]

I hear argentina is getting the xbox 360 soon, though, so not all is lost.



http://www.intpcentral.com/uploads/leon.jpg

[dubbeltop]

Trotsky needs a new pair of glasses:

http://www.specsavers.co.uk/cgi-bin/strudwick.sh/s?langid=1&pfmt=1&siteid=39&pname=frames.html

[omnirook]

If I knew exactly what I was being charged for, and knew why I was innocent, and had the basic idea of how to present it- I would want to represent myself, but my parents would think otherwise.
I'd probably end up taking any case I represent myself in to the supreme court...

And your parents are wiser than you! Yes, there are bad lawyers - some of them cheap, some of them expensive, but, of course, the expensive ones tend to be better. Going into court w/o a lawyer is usually a mistake.

Mark's tips for getting good legal representation ...

1 - Before anything happens, have your general cousel already picked out. If you cannot afford to put a lawyer on retainer (best option), then get to know a lawyer and get him/her onto your side. Any type of lawyer will do in a pinch, but it's always best to be friendly w/a lawyer whose area of expertise is close to your area of activity.

2 - Once you have a lawyer on retainer or at least have a lawyer friend, include that lawyer in your (distant) social circle: invitations to weddings, business parties, send greetings cards, etc. A lawyer must maintain "professional distance," yes, but you can get much closer than you would think.

3 - Get to know the lawyers that your lawyer knows. And give them all the oppurtunity to do what people love best - show off. Ask them all sorts of questions as a matter of general interest. Every time you are surprised to find that the reality does not match what you saw on tv, make a note of it. It could prove important in the future.

4 - When you get sued, when you get arrested, when whatever happens, call your general counsel.

4a - If you have been arrested, say NOTHING to the police - nothing! - except: "I want my lawyer." No matter what the police try - and they will try hard - say NOTHING until your lawyer arrives. NOTHING.

Cop: Good morning!

You: Good morning - I want my lawyer.

Cop: Would like some coffee?

You: Yes, thank you - and I want my lawyer.

Cop: How would you like your coffee?

You: Milk and 2 sugars, please - and I want my lawyer.

4a.1 - NEVER get rude w/the police - never, ever, ever!!!

Cop: "Oh, he resisted arrest. It was quite a struggle. He banged his eye right into the edge of the counter, the eye swelled up, closed tight, and turned black. It was awful. Even the captain came out of his office when he heard the commotion." - and the whole goddamned force will swear up and down that you resisted - so NEVER get smart w/a cop!

4b - If you have been arrested and your lawyer cannot obtain your immediate release (say it's the weekend or a holiday or even just the middle of the night), you should hear your lawyer say something to this effect to the police: "This is my client. I am his legal counsel. I have advised my client not to speak to you unless in my presence. You will not question my client unless I am present."

5 - Your general counsel, after reviewing your case, should be prepared to recommend a good defense lawyer. The defense lawyer should arrive armed w/all the details of your case - and a good description of your physical condition. If you have a black eye that you did not have when your general counsel saw you, your defense lawyer should have you photographed. That will serve as a warning to the police.

6 - A good defense lawyer always knows what judges to go before and what judges not to go before. A good defense lawyer will make a trip to the emergency room to have a "valid" reason for getting out of appearing before this or that judge. Trial lawyers are showmen - or should be - so don't be surprised to learn that your defense lawyer is armed w/a full arsenal of tricks.

Our defense lawyer: Ah, good, Whitley, he hates the DA - great! ... He hates me, too, but not as much, so we're still in good shape - especially since Whitley really hates cops. Keep your mouth shut - but be sure to chuckle when the judge berates the lawyers. I'll bring my assistant - the pretty one who doesn't mind wearing a shorter skirt.

6a - Some judges are pro-defense. I remember Bill's trial. One of the denfense lawyer's associates was put up for 2 reasons: she was pretty and inexperienced. The judge got so into helping her along that he almost veered into mistrial territory. The DA was purple w/rage.

7 - Be polite and charming at all times. I'm not telling you to flirt w/the judge - Bill was good for that! - but don't be a sourpuss. Neither judges nor juries like sourpusses.

8 - Most important: do as your lawyer tells you to do! Your general counsel should be keeping an eye on your defense lawyer. If something is amiss, you should hear about it from your general counsel. If necessary, wait until after your trial - you might have to go on appeal, but that's much better than rocking the boat in any judge's court room. Court rooms are not like tv. Think library instead. Mind your manners! Hours of paper-shuffling in silence will pass, and you must be patient. Delays, breaks, long lunches, resetting the calendar - all par for the course.

[cafe]

The legal service benefit is about the only thing I miss about my husband's old job.

[Birdsnest]

Very sorry about your cousin, thats just awful. Its really important to hire a lawyer that is liked in your locality.

[dubbeltop]

Trials leave trails of slime and thats for a reason plus a large nose helps too for some reason .........

http://www.answers.com/topic/pinocchio

[PonderBee]

I would say that in any legal case where the outcome could significantly effect your welfare one way or another you should never represent yourself, you should seek the best lawyer possible. That said - you should be diligent and remain closely involved with all decisions made regarding the proceedings on your behalf during the course of the case. You will find that, as with any industry, lawyers and judges generally run in the same social circle(s). They very often have close personal relationships/friendships even though their clients are often on opposite sides of the law. You have to do your best to ensure that they wholly represent your case in your best interest and not just by degrees.

[bclark619g]

"One who is his own lawyer has a fool for a client." -- Old Proverb author unknown

[Sidewinder]

www.adventuresinlegalland.com

There is a link on that site to a video interview with the guy who wrote that book, and he talks about how he represented himself and basically owned the judges/prosecutors. It's very interesting.

[Hustler]

What do you do when the entire system is corrupt from top to bottom? Get a good lawyer? No.

Yes. Don't think that Argentina has a monopoly on corruption. Local jurisdictions throughout the United States are corrupt, and some of them are very corrupt, especially in certain areas of the law. Anyhow, yes, you get a good lawyer who can simply run circles around the overworked, comparatively incompetent assistant district attorneys and judges who have been assigned to your case. A guy who works 80 hours a week and, when he's not working, serves out dozens of appointments in various boards, associations, foundations and commissions. The System has a hard time competing with opponents who are willing to put in more hours and effort and make and draw on more connections than its half-hearted employees are. You find a person who refuses to lose, and you set him loose on The Man.

That, or hope the revolution comes fast enough to save your ass.

[Madrigal]

Yes. Don't think that Argentina has a monopoly on corruption.

I certainly don't.


Local jurisdictions throughout the United States are corrupt, and some of them are very corrupt, especially in certain areas of the law. Anyhow, yes, you get a good lawyer who can simply run circles around the overworked, comparatively incompetent assistant district attorneys and judges who have been assigned to your case. A guy who works 80 hours a week and, when he's not working, serves out dozens of appointments in various boards, associations, foundations and commissions. The System has a hard time competing with opponents who are willing to put in more hours and effort and make and draw on more connections than its half-hearted employees are. You find a person who refuses to lose, and you set him loose on The Man.

When crime is inseparable from the police, when the police structure is inseparable from peronist strongholds in Buenos Aires, when that same political structure supports even larger scale crime perpetrated by Big Business which in turn buys whichever judge it wants, you're gonna need more than a good lawyer to get anything done, be it against crime, the police, state officials, big business, or any link in that entire chain of corruption:


revolution