Is the Enneagram bogus?

[tragula]

I've noticed a lot of people here seem to value the Enneagram profiles too. I have looked into it and am quite skeptical.

First. It seems like the Enneagram all boils down to FEELINGS. Which is the main reason I distrust it. I think it was probably invented by feeling people who believe that our childhood wounds are what motivate us all today.

Secondly it really does seem kind of pulled out of thin air. I mean I could make up a personality test based on colors: Red (Impulsive), Blue (Melancholic), Yellow (Perky), Green (Calm), Purple (Dramatic), etc. etc. And I could write detailed descriptions and it could be "fun" and it could even be "useful" in some ways. But it would not be a serious theory of personality.

Here is a link to another Enneagram skeptic:
http://similarminds.com/enneagram_nfo.html

[SheepDog]

It never grabbed me, either. I haven't explored it as I have MBTI, so I usually don't have much to say about it. In any case, I feel more like a square peg in a round hole with enneagram, so it just doesn't work for me.

I like the color thing. Run with it...

[Boneca]

What I don't really understand with the Enneagram is the thing about wings and that star-shape.
I am 5, that I am OK with. But when it comes to secondary tendencies, I can only choose between 4 and 6, and I don't identify at all with any of them.
I would like to call myself a 5 with 7 tendencies, but that doesn't seem to work.

Of course, I am no expert of this system, and I don't think it seems as good as MBTI for understanding yourself or other people.

[Chicken]

Good question, maybe you would like to check out this linkage in relation to yous question:
http://skepdic.com/forer.html

[synchronous]

First. It seems like the Enneagram all boils down to FEELINGS. Which is the main reason I distrust it. I think it was probably invented by feeling people who believe that our childhood wounds are what motivate us all today.

Secondly it really does seem kind of pulled out of thin air.

The Enneagram is about motives, not strictly feelings, and all of us have experienced childhood wounds that affect us to this day, even the most 'unfeeling' types of the MBTI. As for the Enneagram system being pulled out of thin air, its roots can be traced as far back as 2500 BC. It obviously has some staying power, and worthwhile enough for many researchers to study it and apply the knowledge for practical purposes. I've found it very effective in understanding people, and quite accurate.

[Boneca]

As for the Enneagram system being pulled out of thin air, its roots can be traced as far back as 2500 BC.Does that make it more believable? The same could be said for astrology and a whole lot of other hokus pokus.
I don't mean to attack you, synchronous, I think it's great that you find the Enneagram useful. However, I don't think that something is automatically true just because it is old.

[synchronous]

Does that make it more believable? The same could be said for astrology and a whole lot of other hokus pokus.
I don't mean to attack you, synchronous, I think it's great that you find the Enneagram useful. However, I don't think that something is automatically true just because it is old.


Just adding my two cents to the thread. I'm not out to write a thesis and defend it. I'm just saying the Enneagram is not something that's been put together by someone who has been flying by the seat of their pants, put together without some serious thought. It's a system that has been used for centuries, and has been and continues to be extensively researched. If you've not already, read "Personality Types" by Don Riso and Russ Hudson. I think you'll come out a different opinion on the system. And, if memory serves me right, either Riso or Hudson or both are INTPs. LOL.

[synchronous]

I'll add as well that if you've not properly and thoroughly researched the system, then I don't think anyone is in any position to trivialize or dismiss it off hand, relying simply on skeptics.com to assist you in formulating an 'informed' opinion.

[tragula]

I suppose that when you frame it as being about motives it does sound a bit better...

I guess I should add that I read an Enneagram book by Helen Palmer that someone loaned me. And I have taken two online tests, and surfed the authenticenneagram website. I tested as a 6 mainly, but with several other types VERY close behind, like 5.) And I seemed to think that this Loyal Skeptic/Devil's Advocate description didn't work for me. I may be a little paranoid (heck I live in NYC) but it is a strictly rational paranoia, motivated by the facts! And I'm not about to go around just automatically trusting every stranger, even if that made me more likable and well adjusted!

There are other types like 1 and 2 that I think also have problems. Perfectionists would probably be really insulted if someone told them that they were just dysfuntional over-achievers. And the so called Giver types are definitly not always thinking about other people's needs... that it is a very "charitable" description of them.

I liked that skepdic link a lot!!

And I agree that just because something is old doesn't mean it is valuable. Some things just sort of stick around, often for the wrong reasons...

[synchronous]

I've read Helen Palmer's book as well as Richard Rohr's work on the system. Well, if you are still interested in knowing more, read Personality types, and another book I recommend is "Understanding the Enneagram" by the same authors. They are both well researched and very powerful books. I believe one of the authors, Don Riso, was skeptical for the longest time, until it occured to him one day the significance and power of the system. In any case, it's been my experience that when you read about your type, you don't always want to own up to the ugly side. It's always much more pleasant to try and find another type that is seemingly much more palatable, or try and dismiss the system altogether. lol.

It is your prerogative to believe what you want to believe, for whatever reasons. As for skeptics.com, it's actually an excellent example of a tool that can be used to persuade your type to believe what they are trying to 'sell' you. They know what motivates skeptics. I hope you don't automatically believe everything they present to you.

From a skeptic who is skeptical of skeptics.com.

[Wrath Mania]

I think there's obviously some truth in the descriptions the Enneagrams provide, but overall how it's set up and the restrictions it presents are questionable.

To be fair, the online presentations of Enneagrams suck. They almost make it seem astrology-like.

[coffeezombie]

The Enneagram is based on the idea that there are three different "centers" and that each of us specializes in either overusing, underusing, or being out of touch with one's favored center. I can't really explain the logic behind "wings" but it's based upon the premise that we tend to also use the "energies" of the Enneagram centers that our types happen border. It's a little more mystical than the MBTI, but I'm sure there is some science behind it as well.

[Edmond Zedo]

Sure, why not. Well maybe it's not bogus, as it seemed relatively accurate. But durn-near useless.

[INTrPosr]

Let's see if I understand this correctly, some of you would refuse to believe in a system because it is measured by emotions and motives based on childhood experiences, or a system like astrology which has been around since the beginning of time, but you are willing to jump on the band wagon of a system which was created by a lady and her daughter, based on a one time conversation with a Swiss psychologist, and I may add that you received your results from a man made test. Hmmm..... that sounds rational. :)

[Boneca]

Let's see if I understand this correctly, some of you would refuse to believe in a system because it is measured by emotions and motives based on childhood experiences, or a system like astrology which has been around since the beginning of time, but you are willing to jump on the band wagon of a system which was created by a lady and her daughter, based on a one time conversation with a Swiss psychologist, and I may add that you received your results from a man made test. Hmmm..... that sounds rational. :)Now you thought you got us, huh? ;P
I'd say it has everything to do with rational ability. MBTI is a system that I understand, and can apply to myself and my daily life. Astrology is just wrong half of the time, and the Enneagram doesn't seem to include my personality, which makes me question its validity.
I don't think the MBTI is perfect, but I think we here are all aware of its shortcomings. However, I am not going to believe anything that I find doesn't work simply because it is old, someone famous invented it or because a lot of people believe in it.
INTP's don't care much for authority, remember? ;)

[synchronous]

Now you thought you got us, huh? ;P
I'd say it has everything to do with rational ability. MBTI is a system that I understand, and can apply to myself and my daily life. Astrology is just wrong half of the time, and the Enneagram doesn't seem to include my personality, which makes me question its validity.
I don't think the MBTI is perfect, but I think we here are all aware of its shortcomings. However, I am not going to believe anything that I find doesn't work simply because it is old, someone famous invented it or because a lot of people believe in it.
INTP's don't care much for authority, remember? ;)

If you don't care much about authority, then why rely on similarminds.com or skepdics.com to help you make your conclusions about the Enneagram?

I like Personality Page's excerpt below about growth for the INTP:

"Well-developed Extraverted Intuition perceives situations with depth and global understanding. It recognizes possibilities. Introverted Thinking makes conclusions. If an INTP's psyche is serving the purposes of Introverted Thinking above all else, then logical conclusions become more important than possibilities. In such cases, the INTP picks and chooses information from Extraverted Intuition that is interesting to them from the perspective of reaching logical conclusions. This keeps the INTP focused on reaching logical conclusions, but it prevents them from taking in any information that doesn't work well with their logical functioning."

You probably haven't read much about the Enneagram, just what you've gleaned from the surfing the net, right? A couple of pages here, a couple of pages there. And from that you conclude the Enneagram is full of crap. Try expanding your knowledge and exploring it more in depth about the system before coming to half thought out, cliched 'logical' conclusions.

[INTrPosr]

MBTI is a system that I understand, and can apply to myself and my daily life. Astrology is just wrong half of the time, and the Enneagram doesn't seem to include my personality, which makes me question its validity.
I don't think the MBTI is perfect, but I think we here are all aware of its shortcomings. However, I am not going to believe anything that I find doesn't work simply because it is old, someone famous invented it or because a lot of people believe in it. INTP's don't care much for authority, remember? ;)I can appreciate anyone who is comfortable with a system. I guess for me, I integrate all of the systems that you mention above, and then some, with the intent of understanding myself and human nature. Until personality typing can provide a true description of each type's shadow side or being in the grip, then all they can provide is the positive of that type. The average person's personality waxes and wanes by the hour, therefore, I see the descriptions and information provided, being incomplete. I must admit that I studied the other systems long before I began studying type. I have only studied type for the past four years. I hate to point out this little critique, but MBTI is not a system, it's the indicator itself. If you read "Gifts Differing" by Myers-Briggs, you will notice there is no type indicator in the book. That's because Isabella Myers did not believe that one can determine their type from a test. You must carefully and honestly validate your type through self-exploration.

You commented that astrology is just wrong half the time. That makes me believe that you are confusing astrology with horoscopes. The best astrologist will tell anyone that no one can predict what happens to any person at any given time, because of free will. However, a good astrologist will simply inform (not direct) you that based on planet alignment, i.e., mercury retrograde, may cause problems with things that the planet have come to represent like communications of all type and transportation. Purple has tried to explain many times that what most people understand to be astrology is not an inkling of the tip of the iceberg. The same goes for enneagram. You state that the personality description does not fit your personality. But any personality system is only a tool for self-discovery. The average person never goes beyond a plethora of test, which is okay, but can be erroneous. I am unsure what you believe your enneagram type to be, however, to say that your personality is not described is hard to believe since both systems correlate well. To complete my response, I will post a quip from INFJ.ORG
DUMBEST WAYS SOMEONE CAN TYPE THEMSELVES:

Take an online test and accept the results at face value


Compare yourself to pictures posted on the Socionics website


Take a test and change one letter without investigating the whole type pattern


Decide you're the same type as your best friend or romantic partner


Take the MBTI and accept the results at face value (especially the Step II!)


Let a so-called expert tell you what type you are


Join a mailing list for a particular type and decide you like it there so you must be that type


Get attached to the "scores" associated with a test you took and imagine they mean something significant


Let somebody analyze your emails and tell you what type you are


Decide you don't want to be a "J" or "P" because it sounds bad


Try to pick a type code that everybody likes


Ask your friends


Mistake your dominant process for the J/P in your code (for introverts)


Fall in love with portions of a type description you read on the internet (especially ones that say you're rare, unique, or misunderstood)


Decide you are the same type as a celebrity you admire

[Boneca]

You probably haven't read much about the Enneagram, just what you've gleaned from the surfing the net, right? A couple of pages here, a couple of pages there. And from that you conclude the Enneagram is full of crap. Try expanding your knowledge and exploring it more in depth about the system before coming to half thought out, cliched 'logical' conclusions.You are totally right in that I don't know more about the Enneagram than what is freely available on the Internet, and I also never claimed to be an expert on the system. I also don't have a problem with you taking it seriously. If you understand it, and you find it applicable, then that is great. I never said it was full of crap, there is probably a lot of useful insight in it. But the MBTI can explain my personality type properly, while I seem to be some kind of anomaly in the Enneagram system. Naturally, I'd be biased against the Enneagram.

The problem about "expanding my knowledge" is that it costs money. To learn more than just read web pages, I need to buy books or take classes, and I'm not going to do that if I'm not sure the subject is something that will actually be rewarding.

But as you obviously understand much more about the Enneagram, why do you even care about my opinion? I didn't want to start a fight, I just wrote what I thought.

[synchronous]

The problem about "expanding my knowledge" is that it costs money. To learn more than just read web pages, I need to buy books or take classes, and I'm not going to do that if I'm not sure the subject is something that will actually be rewarding.

But as you obviously understand much more about the Enneagram, why do you even care about my opinion? I didn't want to start a fight, I just wrote what I thought.

Why do I care? It should be obvious. Use your great INTP skills to figure it out. In the meantime, go get yourself a library card and take the books out on loan.

[Boneca]

You commented that astrology is just wrong half the time. That makes me believe that you are confusing astrology with horoscopes. The best astrologist will tell anyone that no one can predict what happens to any person at any given time, because of free will. However, a good astrologist will simply inform (not direct) you that based on planet alignment, i.e., mercury retrograde, may cause problems with things that the planet have come to represent like communications of all type and transportation. Purple has tried to explain many times that what most people understand to be astrology is not an inkling of the tip of the iceberg.I cannot argue against you on this. If there are hidden depths to astrology, it has just passed me by. Astrology is in that case being extremely misused. It's possible that the same goes for Enneagram, but in that case, it isn't easy to know beforehand where to find this "true depth".
It seems like both you and synchronous are very personally attached to these beliefs. I think I will refrain from commenting any more on this, since I don't want to insult you any further.

[anarchist]

i can't belive there are INTP's who believe in something so irrational and illogical as astrology..

[INTrPosr]

...But the MBTI can explain my personality type properly, while I seem to be some kind of anomaly in the Enneagram system. Naturally, I'd be biased against the Enneagram.
Definitely not pick Boneca here:) , but since you are the one responding and I was intending to ask in my other thread before it became to large, can you explain your statement.

The type descriptions are usually written with someone at their best, but do not take into consideration upbringing, affects of living in certain environments, and with other types, etc. Since there is no pure type, what specific personality type are you referencing to? Clearly if it's Paul James' essay then yeah, anyone with anyone with similar dichotomies can related. I know it fit me well. I guess I ask because, in finally wisening up and validating my type, I am coming to realize that INTP descriptions fit me less and less as I actually get to know myself and observe my encounters with other people. One problem that I have with the entire MBTI system, is it's skewed questions between T/F. As I have always said, the system is supposed to result in one's preferences for cognition, not emotions. However, the average test base questions on logic/emotion. You will never get your true type from answering those type of questions. Just curious.

[Edmond Zedo]

Hmm. MBTI is based on behavioral analysis, the enneagram is half-assed and useless, and astrology is based on fucking MAGIC. This is difficult.

[INTrPosr]

I cannot argue against you on this. If there are hidden depths to astrology, it has just passed me by. Astrology is in that case being extremely misused. It's possible that the same goes for Enneagram, but in that case, it isn't easy to know beforehand where to find this "true depth".
It seems like both you and synchronous are very personally attached to these beliefs. I think I will refrain from commenting any more on this, since I don't want to insult you any further.Again, I look at systems simply as vehicles to human nature in general. There are many systems which try to measure personality. There are some which I probably would give little credence to, but I can't fault anyone who has found a fascination with it. If I am really interested, I will join a group or go ask questions.

[INTrPosr]

Hmm. MBTI is based on behavioral analysis, the enneagram is half-assed and useless, and astrology is based on fucking MAGIC. This is difficult.C'mon Edmond.... reference to one, just one, formal behavioral analysis conducted by MB practitioners. And so you know, that I know..... don't even think about naming 16 Types, TRI, Keirsey, etc...., which are not Myers-Briggs.

[INTrPosr]

i can't belive there are INTP's who believe in something so irrational and illogical as astrology..Kinda like saying that all INTPs are open-minded ayy....:)

[Edmond Zedo]

C'mon Edmond.... reference to one, just one, formal behavioral analysis conducted by MB practitioners. And so you know, that I know..... don't even think about naming 16 Types, TRI, Keirsey, etc...., which are not Myers-Briggs.

Oh, excuse me for not mentioning that by MBTI I meant this system. I thought about it, but said to myself "No, I don't want to waste mine and everyone's time listing five schools of the same study. They'll know what I mean." Foiled again!

Those who give warning are flawed
And those who fear nothing are flawed
He who designed it is flawed
And he who refined it is flawed
Would you assume that a god would even recognize your soul?
Care for one second what you know?
What you do, or where you go?
That for which you toil won't turn the daylight into dreams
Or turn the raindrops into trees
Or whatever else you know. --Edmond Zedo!

[Clara]

i can't belive there are INTP's who believe in something so irrational and illogical as astrology..
anarchist, there's a distortion, in that. - Physics, too, I just don't get how anyone can believe in it... or believe in Philosophy... ;)

synchronous, & INTrPosr, thanks for the references, and the thumbnail descriptions... I knew that I didn't understand enneagram, and hadn't heard it described in a way that encouraged wanting to try to know more. Thanks for the narration of the importance of reasoning and logic. (Maybe narration isn't the word - a better one isn't coming to mind, however, so I must hope that you can guess. Said with a smile, because reading your posts also brought home to me the importance of maintaining precision, in words' use.)

(INTrPosr - Who are you quoting, in your signature?)

[Vagabond]

If it works, there must be something good about it. The enneagram works better than the MBTI for me... maybe I should go ahead and ditch MBTI as crap, just to give the other side of the coin then.
I think the problem is, people expect a perfect fit in their type in any system - of course you are not going to have that, people of the exact same type in every possible system will still be different in the way they use their characteristics... we are individuals and therefore unique, we can't massively fit a box.

Edmond: please explain, why is the enneagram half-assed and useless?

[Edmond Zedo]

Edmond: please explain, why is the enneagram half-assed and useless?
It's obsolete; There are better systems; It's kindergarten compared to...XXXX. I simply disagree with anyone who prefers it.

[Vagabond]

It's obsolete; There are better systems; It's kindergarten compared to...XXXX. I simply disagree with anyone who prefers it. Oh, you mean it is just your opinion then. OK, I just thought you could elaborate.

[CosmicDust]

Crap is also fertilizer.

I think the E and the MBTI/4-letter systems are fun toys, ways of organizing basic stuff about human nature...much as myths are. They don't have to be "real" in any scientifically verifiable way in order to be useful as entertainment or as tools for insight. (I'm a scientist, but I don't subscribe to scientism.) You can learn a lot about human nature from myths.

[Edmond Zedo]

Oh, you mean it is just your opinion then. OK, I just thought you could elaborate.
I could, but it would take a long time and waste a lot of mental energy I'd rather spend on theoretical physics and women, just now. I've already come to my conclusions with untranslatable intuition and logic. Your conclusions are important enough to me to simply counter, but not to essay. Maybe later.

[Vagabond]

Right, it will be interesting to read. Till then, we agree to disagree.

[coffeezombie]

The MBTI reduces personality down to four different binary categories. The Enneagram reduces it down to how one uses three different centers of energy. I don't understand how one can be so much better than the other? I understand that some people will fit one system better than the other, but I won't go so far as to call one system "crap" while the other system is "superior psychology."