Food For Thought - Happening again?

[Groty]

Hmmm... Description seems eerily familiar.



The Gestapo was established on April 26 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_26), 1933 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1933) in Prussia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussia). With members recruited from professional police (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police) departments, its role as a political police force was quickly established by Hermann Göring (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermann_G%F6ring) after Adolf Hitler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler) gained power in March (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March) 1933. Rudolf Diels (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Diels) was the first head of the organization, initially called "Department 1A of the Prussian State Police".

The role of the Gestapo was to investigate and combat "all tendencies dangerous to the State." It had the authority to investigate treason (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treason), espionage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espionage) and sabotage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabotage) cases, and cases of criminal attacks on the Nazi Party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Party) and on Germany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany).

The law had been changed in such a way that the Gestapo's actions were not subject to judicial review (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judicial_review). The Nazi jurist, Dr. Werner Best (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Werner_Best&action=edit), stated, "As long as the [Gestapo]... carries out the will of the leadership, it is acting legally." The Gestapo was specifically exempted from being responsible to administrative courts, where citizens normally could sue (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawsuit) the state to conform to laws.

The power of the Gestapo most open to misuse was Schutzhaft, or "protective custody" — a euphemism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euphemism) for the power to imprison people without judicial proceedings, typically in concentration camps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentration_camp). The person imprisoned even had to sign his or her own Schutzhaftbefehl, the document declaring that the person desired to be imprisoned. Normally this signature was forced by beatings and torture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture).http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gestapo

[SheepDog]

That could never happen here. This is an open democracy, with constitutional protections.

[Zero Angel]

Did you say prostitutional contections? :whistle:

[SheepDog]

Did you say prostitutional contections? :whistle:
Now that you mention it, yes...yes I did say that.

[Groty]

OMG! THIS IS ABSOLUTELY WONDERFUL!!!! 8O

Over 350 communities in 43 states have passed resolutions condemning sections of the Patriot Act and the forthcoming Patriot Act Part Deux!!! And guess what! New York City and Albany, NY are on the list! This is absolutely wonderful! I was losing hope! Wooooo hooooo!!!!

http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=11294&c=207

Most of the resolutions are linked.

:thumbup:

Hmm... This could be a major wedge between communities and the Feds. Maybe we'll see a bunch of lifetimers get voted out!!!

[SheepDog]

The Feds have better intelligence. (which doesn't mean they're smarter).

[Warrior413]

OMG! THIS IS ABSOLUTELY WONDERFUL!!!! 8O

Over 350 communities in 43 states have passed resolutions condemning sections of the Patriot Act and the forthcoming Patriot Act Part Deux!!! And guess what! New York City and Albany, NY are on the list! This is absolutely wonderful! I was losing hope! Wooooo hooooo!!!!

Those America hating hippies!

Nah, that's great. Denver was second on the list! Go us!

[crule81]

If anything like the Gestapo were to happen in the US, it would take a lot of time and more terrorist attacks greater in scale than 9-11. What one has to remember is that the Germans had a history of authoritarian government. The Weimar Republic, 1918-1933, was merely an unpopular aberration.

[Robespierre]

Throw a frog into boiling water and he jumps out. Gradually heat the water and he will remain until being cooked to death.

The fedgov will grab more and more power. There is no magic line for it to cross where it will officially become a police state. You must decide for yourself how much is too much.

[Claverhouse]

What one has to remember is that the Germans had a history of authoritarian government.
Not really. Although Germans grew progressively more disciplined and dutiful from the wild Teutoberger days onward, governance in the German lands was extremely feeble from the start of modern times ( the 17th century ) due to the fragmentation of power throughout the Empire ( thanks to the Papacy: fuck all guelphic ideas; and other factors, especially the Thirty Years War which diminished most aspects of German life for generations ); which is why other countries both a/ got ahead b/ beat up the Germans a lot. The only time they got authoritarian --- in both good and bad senses of the word --- was during the glorious Second Reich. Even the inferior Third Reich, a mixture of herd democracy and barely centralised state power, had rather less coercive authority than the far more powerful countries which overcame her.


The Weimar Republic, 1918-1933, was merely an unpopular aberration.
Who can wonder ? A mixture of weak-minded liberals and fat greasy industrialists living off the exploited workers, scarcely offering any resistance to the repulsive spectre of soviet communism, couldn't gain the respect of anyone worthwhile. Particularly as no republic has any moral mandate to rule anyone. Ever.

Bit like today, except that soviet communism is almost defeated & will have to reinvent itself as something else to come back.



Claverhouse :ph34r:

[ApeTheDog]

I think so. It's definately not going in the right direction.

Homosexuals are being less and less accepted. I wouldn't be surprised if, on top of the already existing discriminations like not being allowed to get married, new ones would be issued. All it takes is for some nutjob to get it into their system that homosexuals make bad role models for their children, and before you know it there is a school for homosexuals. Next step: a ghetto.

I know it sounds completely ridiculous, but if you think about the holocaust, ignoring for a while that it all really happened, it sounds completely exagerated too. Sadly, it's human nature to be petty, selfish, irresponsable and prejudiced like this.

Something that scares me a lot is the theory of evolution still being questioned and even being removed from books. It takes a rather insane mind to question this theory in favor for something that (with all respect to christians) some ancient guys pulled out of their ass. And hey, another parallel here. Who says that the next step here isn't the burning of all books that don't portray things their way? - That scares me because if a society no longer allows theories to exist that are the opposite of the one they support, it pretty much IS totalitarian already. In the case of the USA mildly so, but still...

And the media is not going the right way either. Focus there is on selling papers, and more and more papers are taking advantage of stupidities rather than trying to educate the people which is what their taks should be.

And I could go on. I don't think things are going well in the USA at all. And frankly, I don't support the notion that what happened in Germany could not happen in the USA. I think not only could it happen, it's already started. :(

[relaxo]

Homosexuals are being less and less accepted.

Are you implying that Nazi's were against homosexuality?
Quite the contrary. The party's membership was full of homosexuals and other non-traditional sexual preferences.

It is true the nazi's used homosexulaity to discredit certain military commanders it did not want in power, but this was done within the military, which was very conservative.

People forget the nazi movement was socialist for the German people. It accepted all Germans, no matter their sexual preference. The party was full of artists who praised it's marxist doctrine. Anti-imperialists (the UK and France being the imperialists), anti-capitalists, anti-communists, nationalists, racists all joined together for a common goal.

They may not have liked the results, but they certainly had no respect for democracy or conservative instituions and were fooled into supporting the party. This seems to be the only similarity to the USA I can find at this point in time that worries me.


I wouldn't be surprised if, on top of the already existing discriminations like not being allowed to get married, new ones would be issued. All it takes is for some nutjob to get it into their system that homosexuals make bad role models for their children, and before you know it there is a school for homosexuals. Next step: a ghetto.

However more and more Americans are accepting of homosexaulity as judged by laws allowing marriage, discrimination laws and what is shown on TV sitcoms. You can certainly fear what you say, but the evidence is going the other way.



Sadly, it's human nature to be petty, selfish, irresponsable and prejudiced like this.

It is also human nature to be giving, compassionate, open and understanding.


Something that scares me a lot is the theory of evolution still being questioned and even being removed from books. It takes a rather insane mind to question this theory in favor for something that (with all respect to christians) some ancient guys pulled out of their ass.

No argument here. However, I've seen so much christian bashing I'd liek to mention muslims, jews, buddhists, daoists, and OK there are too many stupid beliefs to mention.



And hey, another parallel here. Who says that the next step here isn't the burning of all books that don't portray things their way?

I burn books myself. The quoran, the bible, the communist manifesto.



I don't think things are going well in the USA at all. And frankly, I don't support the notion that what happened in Germany could not happen in the USA. I think not only could it happen, it's already started. :(
Only in the USA? Why only pick on them? How about the European Union? Dominated by Germany and France, hey, where have we seen those two nations in Europe before? Anyway, a giant European state full of government making all sorts of laws and restrictions? Sound familiar?
I'd worry about other nations on this planet first before the USA.

[crule81]

Not really. Although Germans grew progressively more disciplined and dutiful from the wild Teutoberger days onward, governance in the German lands was extremely feeble from the start of modern times ( the 17th century ) due to the fragmentation of power throughout the Empire ( thanks to the Papacy: fuck all guelphic ideas; and other factors, especially the Thirty Years War which diminished most aspects of German life for generations ); which is why other countries both a/ got ahead b/ beat up the Germans a lot. The only time they got authoritarian --- in both good and bad senses of the word --- was during the glorious Second Reich. Even the inferior Third Reich, a mixture of herd democracy and barely centralised state power, had rather less coercive authority than the far more powerful countries which overcame her.


You're certainly right if you compare the German authoritarian tradition to that of Russia.

It is true that there was variance in the governments of German States prior to 1871, so perhaps there was no completely uniform history of authoritarianism. Although the governments of the smaller states seemed feeble in terms or international power, many still exerted great controls over their own subjects.

The authoritarianism you speak of in the Second Reich, however, was merely an expansion of that which existed in the Prussian state before unification. That Prussian authoritarianism dates back to a least the 18th century where it was necessary to maintain its highly militarized society and rigid social structure and discipline.

The reason that so many Germans emmigrated to the US in the 19th Century was due to the widescale repression of liberals after the risings of 1848-1849. This happened throughout the German Confederation, generally getting worse as one heads East. One dissented from the existing order at one's own risk.

[Lucas]

It's definately not going in the right direction.

Homosexuals are being less and less accepted. I wouldn't be surprised if, on top of the already existing discriminations like not being allowed to get married, new ones would be issued. All it takes is for some nutjob to get it into their system that homosexuals make bad role models for their children, and before you know it there is a school for homosexuals. Next step: a ghetto.

I know it sounds completely ridiculous, but if you think about the holocaust, ignoring for a while that it all really happened, it sounds completely exagerated too. Sadly, it's human nature to be petty, selfish, irresponsable and prejudiced like this.

That scares me because if a society no longer allows theories to exist that are the opposite of the one they support, it pretty much IS totalitarian already. In the case of the USA mildly so, but still...



And I could go on. I don't think things are going well in the USA at all. And frankly, I don't support the notion that what happened in Germany could not happen in the USA. I think not only could it happen, it's already started. :(

Thank you, your post was a perfect example of the 'slippery slope' logical fallacy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_fallacy

While we do have some problems that need to be fixed, (what country doesn't?) I think things are going pretty damn well in the US, relatively speaking, ie compared with all of human and political history.

[Shai Gar]

If anything like the Gestapo were to happen in the US, it would take a lot of time and more terrorist attacks greater in scale than 9-11. What one has to remember is that the Germans had a history of authoritarian government. The Weimar Republic, 1918-1933, was merely an unpopular aberration.
Department of Homeland Security

[Claverhouse]

You're certainly right if you compare the German authoritarian tradition to that of Russia.

It is true that there was variance in the governments of German States prior to 1871, so perhaps there was no completely uniform history of authoritarianism. Although the governments of the smaller states seemed feeble in terms or international power, many still exerted great controls over their own subjects.

The authoritarianism you speak of in the Second Reich, however, was merely an expansion of that which existed in the Prussian state before unification. That Prussian authoritarianism dates back to a least the 18th century where it was necessary to maintain its highly militarized society and rigid social structure and discipline.

The reason that so many Germans emmigrated to the US in the 19th Century was due to the widescale repression of liberals after the risings of 1848-1849. This happened throughout the German Confederation, generally getting worse as one heads East. One dissented from the existing order at one's own risk.
I agree with all that. But I'd add that purifying the land of liberals was per se a bonus to those left behind; and that if you want real authoritarian rule the British, French and even the Americans, leave other states far in their wake. Just one example: ignoring things going on throughout the Empire, back through the 18th/19th centuries the working-classes were enormously dragooned by the ruling establishment in Britain and suffered extremely severely for infractions that challenged any part of their masters' desires. But those three nations have far better PR skills, and were/are generally able to persuade their peoples they are free merely by telling them they are already.



Claverhouse :ph34r:

[Dengarm]

Tangent Time!

1) Some of the anti-gay marriage amendments also took away same sex DP benefits as well.

2) The grand canyon national park is no longer allowed to give or post estimations of the age of the canyon.

3) It dosn't take more than a 9-11 to start horrible things happening. My mom's bf think we should have nuked Afganistan (and that we should nuke Iraq) and went to two 'Nuke the Middle East' Rallys which each had a few thousand participants.

4) I just read an article about how Bush is planning to build a prison for indefinitely imprisoning suspected terrorists if they can't find enough evidence to take them to trial or feel they are a threat. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A41475-2005Jan1.html http://www.intl-news.com/blog/Ripoff/_archives/2005/1/2/220955.html) With that, all he needs is a minor act of terrorism, to tell people the terrorists were [insert minority here] and then haul as many as he can into prison overnight.

[Shai Gar]

heh. just wish the rest of the US would wake up to this and execute that terrorist hatemonger that stole the election