The ten senses of intuition

[Pierce]

Years ago I wanted to find a framework to explain my often uncanny intuition. The idea of a psychic 6th sense was far too vague. The notion of a superior divergent thought process, whereby one recognizes the whole from a very few fragments did not satisfactorily explain it either. Religious notions of supernatural communications from beings, either good or evil, didn't make much sense to me. I really didn't find much help with this, until I stumbled across a old nineteenth century out of print book that referenced "the region of the seven dimensions and the ten senses." Unfortunately, the author did not elaborate on what he meant by the phrase.

The idea of ten senses intrigued me and I began the task of working out what might constitute ten senses. Not getting far myself, I invited over a brilliant lawyer friend and we decided to brainstorm and theorize until we either discovered something interesting or abandoned the attempt as futile. My wife, eavesdropping on our deliberations while providing tea and cookies, commented that it was really quite simple; one only had to realize that there were five natural senses, so there must be five corresponding spiritual senses, for a total of ten. Hmmm. I had heard of "second sight." Could there be a "second" to each of the natural senses? And, how would one define them?

In an afternoon, we sketched out a framework, and over a few years I fleshed it out into an illuminating prism with which to view intuition. Each second sense is like a riddle and there are keys to unlocking each mystery. Like any riddle, once you realize the answer, it seems painfully obvious. The answers are both literally and figuratively "right under our noses."

Anyone care to try their hand at this game?

[tragula]

Well, I'm exhausted and the old brain is sort of sputtering, but this looks like fun...
I'd guess simply that what you are referring too is an auditory memory, an olfactory memory, a tactile memory, etc.

And that with each separate sense we have the ability to compare to previous patterns in order to intuit something.

For example if my wife walks into the bedroom in the morning when I'm still asleep and says "Oh my god you'll never guess how cold it is outside!" I can compare her tone and words to previous similar statements and make an accurate guess.

[SheepDog]

I have a couple different metaphors for thinking about intuition. Keep in mind that they aren't meant to be literal (but I'm being redundant redundant).

One is that intution is like being in tune with harmonics instead of just the fundamental tones. The fundamentals are the literal happenings, the things that are perceived directly by the 5 senses. The harmonics has to do with patterns of these events which is not perceived directly, but can still be observed. Advanced intution can be thought of as being in tune with more subtle and complex interactions of perceivable events, like ever more complex chords and tonalities.

Another one I think of is the 3-D "magic eye" pictures. The colored lines represent the literal events, but seeing the "hidden" image requires looking beyond these events to see a different view altogether.
Just for fun: http://www.vision3d.com/sghidden.html

Note that each of these metaphors ties to a single sense, and are a bit oversimplistic.

[Pierce]

This thing unfolds very simply... little kids get it, no degrees required. I guess this can be clue #1. Order the 5 natural senses in ascending order of complexity. Next, define what sensory data each sense provides (i.e. touch distinguishes temperature and texture). Now the tricky part... imagine the intuitive counterpart to the literal sensory data each sense provides. And there you have it.

[Clara]

I have a couple different metaphors for thinking about intuition. Keep in mind that they aren't meant to be literal (but I'm being redundant redundant).

One is that intution is like being in tune with harmonics instead of just the fundamental tones. The fundamentals are the literal happenings, the things that are perceived directly by the 5 senses. The harmonics has to do with patterns of these events which is not perceived directly, but can still be observed. Advanced intution can be thought of as being in tune with more subtle and complex interactions of perceivable events, like ever more complex chords and tonalities.

Yes (says the Complete Nonmusician) - something like that... and I think everyone can do it, just like everyone can swim (if they move their arms and... )

Something like my nephew (one of them) when he was four, looking up at a clear bright blue summer sky, and saying to me, "Yeah, it's gonna rain this afternoon... (then mildly surprised at my surprise) Yeah. No not right after lunch, sort of middle of the afternoon." Guess what. (I don't know if he can still do that - I wish he were learning music, though - *sigh*).

I did actually come looking to see if others were thinking about this, but I think concepts like (Six's signature) "Taste the rainbow" are useful, and that trying to squeeze understanding into logical boxes... is probably not.

But then again, maybe that's just me - I can only waltz if I don't think about it, for instance.

:)

[Serotonin]

This thing unfolds very simply... little kids get it, no degrees required. I guess this can be clue #1. Order the 5 natural senses in ascending order of complexity. Next, define what sensory data each sense provides (i.e. touch distinguishes temperature and texture). Now the tricky part... imagine the intuitive counterpart to the literal sensory data each sense provides. And there you have it.
I'm game to try. OK, from least complex to most complex.
5. Taste - distinguishes sugar from salt from bitterness from sour, i.e. C6H12O6 from NaCl from quinine from citric acid..... ummm... molecular intuition? Maybe micro-intuition... there are small immutable particles that are different, and the things constructed from these particles will reflect these differences. E.g. a house made from bricks will have a stronger integrity than a house made from fibro.
4. Smell - Small molecules hit an olfactory-sensitive membrane.... smell is closely linked with memory and the experiences and emotions you had at that time you smelled the smell very much like deja-vu... There for it's past-oriented intuition.... where you will easily be able to conjure the mental and emotional state you were in previously.
3. Hearing - Sound waves and vibrations. More complexly... the synthesising of simultaneous vibrations and chords... a bit like SheepDog was saying. Present-oriented intuition.
2. Sight - Light waves and images. We rely primarily on sight to navigate our way through physical space.... therefore the corresponding intuition would guide us through abstract space. Like a mental map.
1. Touch - Not just temperature and texture, but pressure, pain, itching, tickle, pleasure associated with massaging/arousal. Each of these physically elicits an emotional reaction when externally applied(sensing), and internally experienced(intuition). Correlates include: Temperature(excitement), texture(mood), pressure(stress), pain(depression), itching(restlessness), tickle(unrestrained happiness), arousal(emotional arousal i suppose). Reactive Intuition.

Okay so the big five, by my deduction, are:
5. Micro-intuition
4. Deja-vu
3. Contemporaneous Intuition
2. Navigation Intuition
1. Reactive Intuition

All comments/corrections/ideas welcome

[SheepDog]

Not so very different, from something more concrete: once when I had a mild sinus infection, I told the gp that I thought it was some mild infection, because "there's a little metalic taste, like if you taste a cut on a finger." Then I really wondered about some people who choose to study medicine, because he had_never_done that... and doubted it could be so. I did go downstairs for the x-ray, and back up for the prescription (now I know, inhale salt water, but I didn't know that then).
Medical schools require so much memorization, I wonder what type would put up with that...

Have you tried a Neti Pot (for your sinuses)?

[Chicken]

I've always believed intuition to simply be different combinations of the 5 senses that we do already have: working in new ways by crossing the received data to come to some obvious conclusions about situations by working out what's potentially 'missing', instead of what 'is' actually there.. well, obvious to an intuitive, anyway.. wether we realise we do it or not...
but if you were to want the response to your 5 or 10 sense majigger, i think i'd have to say...

Sight - Blindness
Touch - Feelessness
Smell - Scentless
Hear - Deaf
Taste - Tasteless

Simply because an intuitive is working on what isn't there and filling in blanks, as opposed to what is there, it would make sense for them to be the exact opposites, or simply the lack thereof... that's my take, anyway

[Pierce]

I ordered the senses the same, except I put touch first, considering it the most primary. It seems like the first sense we experience is the warmth and closeness of mother's womb. I also think you captured the essesnce of 2nd touch. I'm not sure the label reactive intuition fits, but the concept is right. I simply call it "Emotion." It is an intriguing twist to imagine that emotion could be any kind of sense. I have often "felt" the anger of a person when I entered a room, especially if they "burned with anger." I also notice the "coolness" of a dispassionate or aloof person, sometimes even as a "chill." And the "warmth" I feel when I hold (or even think of) my child, could not be mistaken for anything but affection. I certainly perceive the texture of a sharp or dull pain, but those pale against the agony of "pain" I experienced during my divorce. I wondered whether we are both receivers and transmitters of this strange thing called emotion, and whether it is indeed one of the distinct forms of intuition or mystical perception. It seems to convey the current state or "temperature" of ones heart or being. I should note that I perceive a clear distinction between passions -- cravings of the body, and emotion -- desires of the heart, which most people seem to lump together for some unknown reason. Anyway, it seems that when we use the language of "touch" to refer to anything other than literal touch, we are really trying to describe "feelings" of another kind that we can only express metaphorically -- I think that would be 2nd touch.

[Clara]

Medical schools require so much memorization, I wonder what type would put up with that...

Funny, I deleted the post, because I decided it didn't add anything :)

SheepDog *heavy sigh* an INTP (or another type) who is very logical, very good at elaborate mental indexing and cross indexing, has a curiosity about sciences and other things, and also good at memorization... _of_course_ (My surprise made me notice and remember - I did have the impression that he was a good doctor - just maybe very rule abiding as a child)

:lol: I guess I didn't say, it was a few years ago - cleared up since :) Thanks, though

On a more serious note, my impression is that your understanding of "how" intuition works is rather like mine (so, I think you're right - hehe - and yet, the discretely-not-talked-about-kid complimented me yesterday, on my ability to at times tune (like a radio) into different rythyms, and find the happy sense of things "like another kid at school"... SheepDog, you and int have much to look forward to - your kids are going to teach you things you can't even guess, if you make sure to keep the conversations - not always words, I know you know - stringing along (like waves on a beach).

Pierce, I had meant to say, "Hi" - and I'm delighted you started this thread.

[Clara]

The examples make it clearer Pierce - I just think you're using your whole self as a sort of complex tuning fork, when you feel those things. (And, as I said, I'm setting aside the notion of classifying, because maybe it's superfluous... or might interfere with our abilities to dance... focusing on feet when it's not time for that).

[ edit: No. I misread. I agree with you 100% about touch and emotions. And, I look forward to reading your further thoughts on the rest of this. ]

[ 2nd edit: what you wrote reminds me of another facet - the sense that "something's missing" - I believe it is one of the hallmarks of humanity, the grain of sand in our shell, the ache that keeps us striving... ]

I have no clue... how any of it works together (but then, I can't dance)
So, what about that baby's own heart, mother's heart, and the music (jazz, outside, loud but not painfully so) to which that unborn kid was "dancing" (keeping the beat accurately throughout the piece)? See, more than touch & sound - pattern and rythym, which for jazz is irregular, but I forget the term.

I think, too, that the back and forth between two - or a group - who are each receiving and sending, makes another dynamic... like what everone was explaining about learning to drive in traffic.

[Pierce]

Ok, so the rules are supposed to come first. (I always make the rules well into the game because I like to change them if they don't seem to fit well as things develop -- this really irritates my kids and my employees).

So, 100 points for capturing the essence of one of the senses in fairly simple, easy to grasp terms (12 year olds must be able to understand it). No other points awarded. That's about it for the rules and scoring... for now.

I'm going to give Seratonin 2nd touch, so he's in the lead with 100 points.

The other comments or guesses are too vague, complex or far afield to award anything more. That leaves 400 points up for grabs!

I didn't say it was easy, I said it was simple -- which makes it quite difficult!

[Clara]

Who said you get to make the rules :D

And don't explain simple to me *mock angry face that never fools anyone*

Never mind, I can do pedantic, too - just not right now.

... I'm going to bid you adieu, and shut everything down here... there's a birthday "card" to sign, in the pub, for Sackanaka (in case you didn't see it) - it's late, and my brain is signalliing "later; say 'later - bye...'" (Fun, though.)

[Pierce]

what you wrote reminds me of another facet - the sense that "something's missing" - I believe it is one of the hallmarks of humanity, the grain of sand in our shell, the ache that keeps us striving...

Hi Clara. Yes, I understand you, too. We must be on similar frequencies. What you are describing is not a sense, but something you sense with a sense (2nd hearing, but I can't explain it now, or someone will flame me for not being able to win the 100 points). The aching you describe is indeed universal -- it is the realization that we are not "home." Here is a quote from the author who introduced me to the ten senses:

"We are often unable to tell people what they need to know, because they want to know something else, and would therefore only misunderstand what we said. Home is ever so far away in the palm of your hand, and how to get there it is of no use to tell you. But you will get there; you must get there; you have to get there. Everybody who is not at home, has to go home."

Does that "ring a bell?"

[Pierce]

i'd have to say...

Sight - Blindness
Touch - Feelessness
Smell - Scentless
Hear - Deaf
Taste - Tasteless

Simply because an intuitive is working on what isn't there and filling in blanks, as opposed to what is there, it would make sense for them to be the exact opposites, or simply the lack thereof... that's my take, anyway

While I view the 2nd senses in a more metaphorical framework than you, the idea of opposites, or rather ranges is very important to me. I even used almost the same words to describe the ranges:

Feeling... Numbness
Savor... Tasteless
Scent... Odorless
Hearing... Silence
Seeing... Blindness

I find the effort of coloring in or fleshing out the ranges to be fascinating. For example, the major metaphorical gradations i see between Numbness and Feeling follow this order: Numbness, Rage, Sorrow, Anger, Pain, Joy, Peace and Feeling.

[Pierce]

Something like my nephew (one of them) when he was four, looking up at a clear bright blue summer sky, and saying to me, "Yeah, it's gonna rain this afternoon... (then mildly surprised at my surprise) Yeah. No not right after lunch, sort of middle of the afternoon." Guess what. (I don't know if he can still do that - I wish he were learning music, though - *sigh*).

My best friend in high school could do that, predict the weather just looking up at the sky. He was alway uncannily accurate and most often at odds with the meteorologist. When I asked him how he did it, he couldn't explain. He wasn't looking at distant clouds or shades of color, or listening for distant thunder, nothing empirical... he just "knew" that it would rain in the afternoon even when the sky was perfectly clear in the morning. That was one of the things that really sparked my curiousity as a young man. This thing really seemed to beg for an explanation.

[Chicken]

While I view the 2nd senses in a more metaphorical framework than you, the idea of opposites, or rather ranges is very important to me. I even used almost the same words to describe the ranges:

Feeling... Numbness
Savor... Tasteless
Scent... Odorless
Hearing... Silence
Seeing... Blindness

I find the effort of coloring in or fleshing out the ranges to be fascinating. For example, the major metaphorical gradations i see between Numbness and Feeling follow this order: Numbness, Rage, Sorrow, Anger, Pain, Joy, Peace and Feeling.

This gives me the image of a number line in my mind, you have the 5 senses either on the negative or positive side of the number line, and as you move across it you're hitting down on the opposite slowly but surely across the line.. and by the time you get to the other side you're at the value's exact opposite..

so i guess it would be possible to link them all up with numbers in a sequence on number lines to more easily demonstrate their varying degrees and ranges.. do you think that would work out? i'm guessing this could also be demonstrated with percentages as well just as easily.. here, i made this based on what you said in your previous post.. it goes in with the color coding too (as far as shading), to demonstrate states.. if you wouldn't mind: let me know if you would think is this agreeable or not, and in what ways it might be changed to fit the concept..


http://img89.exs.cx/img89/8961/number5dk.jpg

[Pierce]

This gives me the image of a number line in my mind, you have the 5 senses either on the negative or positive side of the number line, and as you move across it you're hitting down on the opposite slowly but surely across the line.. and by the time you get to the other side you're at the value's exact opposite...

I agree with your idea. Building a kind of matrix to visually represent the relationships of the various senses is the way to go, especially for really analyzing the thing. I did it similarly, and chose a vertical axis (but I don't know why). Also, the gradation seems natural from dark on the negative side and lighter toward the positive. For the actual arrangement of the perceptions, and their corresponding relationships to each other, I used a simple color spectrum with black on the negative side followed by the six primary/secondary colors and white (clear) on the right side. I imagine that even color theory may be consistant with the pattern. When the other enumerated senses are laid out similarly, it produces very colorful coversation piece. :)

[Pierce]

Ok, moving right along, let's see if my thoughts about second taste will make sense to anyone...

For taste I used the same type of pattern I saw in touch, that is I looked for metaphors to give me clues. Basically, look for "taste language" that has nothing to do with literal taste. The basic flavors are sweet, sour, bitter and salty. While traveling in China, I discovered that they recognized a fifth flavor, spicy, which I thought fit the pattern and I consider bitter-sweet a distinct flavor as well.

Common metaphors relating to taste include:
I insist on tasting all life has to offer!
That was a bitter pill to swallow.
That sure left a sour taste in my mouth.
She wuz like a spicy meat-a-balla. (Spoken with Italian accent)
Taste and see that the Lord is good. (Scripture)

There many more examples and they can be found in different languages and cultures, too. So, what is it we use the language of taste to describe, that is not literal taste? It seems to me we are describing the "distinctive quality of an experience." If an experience leaves us feeling sweeeeeeeeeeet (as my teenager says) then we want to repeat the experience. The bitter experiences are not so popular. Sour seems to correspond with melancholy, and salty fits with learning experiences. And sometimes we like to spice things up a bit. With bitter-sweet, you take the good with the bad, and somehow, with a little maturity, it's even better. So, is "tasting" and evaluating an experience after the fact really an intuitive sense? I think it is... probably to the same degree as tasting food after you put it into your mouth. Did you like it, or not? This is not a rational process at any rate.

Any comments, suggestions, additions? I appreaciate the comments so far; I've several things from you guys so far (some of Seratonin's associations for touch had not occured to me at all and they really fit).

Anybody want to try 2nd smell?

[Pierce]

Well, either no one is getting my drift, or everyone thinks the whole notion of a metaphorical or spiritual ten senses is nonsense. Since I generally make an effort to finish what I start, I'll plod on... feel free to read or comment or not.

Second Smell would define what many people experience as a vague but compelling sense of being "led" to do, or not to do something, or to go, or not to go somewhere... It is directional and can be quite literal as well as figurative as in feeling drawn to a certain course of study, a particular line of work, or even a group of people to associate with. It can be an uneasiness that causes a sudden wariness, or a calm comfort that causes you to let down your guard with a new found friend. Often people will say of a suspicious offering, "Something about that smells fishy." Or when we think we've been betrayed, "I smell a rat." I suppose one could chalk up the smell of fear to hormones released, but I don't know that science has actually cataloged fear-smell.

Years ago, I remember a young woman driving along chatting with my unusually intuitive friend (the same fellow who could uncannily predict the weather). As she approached a green light at a blind intersection, he shouted, "Stop!" his hand striking her chest in urgency. She did as he commanded and moments later a tractor trailer sped through the intersection at about 60 mph -- If she hadn't stopped, the small car would have been crushed. They were shaken -- and somewhat awed, as was I. How did he know? The truck was not visable nor did it sound a horn. My friend did not know how to explain it. He did not know there was a truck coming. He just knew she urgently had to stop. I also remember walking on a forest trail in the dark with my brother and hearing voices and laughter ahead. The further along we went the greater a sense of dread descended on us. At length, my brother refused to go ahead and turned back, and though I sensed the same dread, I would not admit it, and pressed onward without him. I could see light through the trees and almost make out the words being spoken. But the dread became a weight and my limbs so heavy I could not walk. I cursed the dread. And then shots rang out, gunshots -- I joined my brother on the trail back. I'll never know what happened there, or what might have happened -- but I knew it wasn't good. Whatever that sense was, I have come to call 2nd smell -- a vague but compelling sense of guidance -- and I've been rather thankful for it on a number of occasions.

Guidance by what or whom? As near as I can tell the guidance comes from inside us... like natural smell would lead you toward the scent of fresh cooking and way from noxious odors. And just like cologne or spice can mask rottenness, I pay particular attention when something just doesn't quite smell right.

[purple13]

This is very interesting... please continue. I see where you're going now with this.

[cuspuser]

i find it somewhat odd that no one has mentioned "Sight" as it seems the most obvious ... its really the only one i think i "figured out" by myself, of course there are more "dimensions" to it than what i'm going to put as i just recognized by the quotes :)

anyways, here's a rundown of where i think we're at ...

Sight - General Mood - Feeling Blue (depressed), Green (with envy), Seeing Red (anger)

Taste - Feeling about a particular experience/distinctive quality of an experience, more generally having an experience (tasting), examples a bitter/sweet event for something that is good and bad, sour - "that left a sour taste in my mouth" for something that didn't go quite as planned.

Smell - leading toward/having an inkling about (intuition?) - examples "smelled a rat", "something smells fishy", "something just doesn't smell right" (any positive examples here? not related to cooking? :) )

Hearing - Compatibility/Familiarity - "we're on the same frequency" "we're on the same wavelength" ... "doesn't that ring a bell?", "we're not on the same frequency/wavelength", "that doesn't ring a bell" ... tho i'm not sure what to do with "pages" in this case, "we're on the same page", etc.

Touch - Emotions(inner feelings)/Desires - even sexually thinking (i am a guy afterall), she was a cold fish, or one hot tamali (however u spell that), they were cold (dispassionate) or man he was hot (anger in this case - but still passionate)

Anyways, i think thats where we're at, at the moment anyhow.

[Pierce]

Second hearing is the intuition of the unwritten notes which comprise the music of the cosmic symphony. It is the spark of genius and the flame of artistry -- insight and inspiration, or more simply, it is knowing something without all the reasoning and thinking about it. It was the path of Nicola Tesla as compared to Thomas Edison.

More commonly, it is what happens when joy fills your heart listening to a symphony and you unexpectedly perceive the intent, the emotion of the composer. I'll never forget my first live glimpse of Michaelangelo's Pieta. It was the first time I was utterly overwhelmed by a work of art -- no time to analyze or appreciate -- simply struck breathless with the awe of The Passion, tears streaming down my cheeks. It conveyed no religious significace to me at all, the power seemed vested in the object itself. It is as if all things created bear traces of the passion of their creator.

To carry the thought further, it seems any object can be infused with a kind of energy. From ancient times, weapons of offense and defense have been "blessed" by priests, and even modern soldiers "personalize" ordinance and their vehicles of delivery. Witches both ancient and modern work their hexes on physical objects. And religious orders annoint with olive oil and pray over cloths. Memoabilia even plays a part -- the price skyrockets for an article worn or even touched by a luminary as if it has somehow been imbued with some of their essence -- and many people believe it is so (of course this is ridiculous to the rational mind... but we aren't dealing with reason here).

Hearing is of sound: vibration, pitch, tone, volume, waves, frequency and resonance. This is not only the language of sound, but also of motion, light, and electricity -- indeed, all energy in its simplest and most complex forms. Hearing denotes understanding, so it is the intuitive knowledge of the laws of energy which govern the universe, as well as the various communicative mediums of knowledge which are comprised of energy.

Understanding the meanings of "things" might be similar to tuning in a radio frequency. During my college days, I once tried to sleep on a couch at a friend's apartment. There was an unusually loud ticking clock on the mantle that kept me awake. I wondered at that moment if I could stop the clock from ticking by willing it. I became aware of a sound in my mind not unlike the sound of a radio frequency out of tune, and I concentrated on the sound, trying to alter it. I found that I could. Next, I wondered if the sound could be matched to the "frequency" of the thought of stopping the clock. I don't know how long I spent doing this because it became kind of an altered state... and then it reached a pinnacle of intensity and released like water suddenly flowing through a opened gate. I felt a distinct "rush" and I became frightened because I did not hear the next expected tick of the clock. I wondered if I had messed up my mind and my sense of time was altered and I kept waiting, but the clock had stopped. I spent the night without sleep and the next morning when my friend commented that the mantle clock had stoppen at 2:35 am, I looked at it but said nothing. I never did anything so foolish again. I never believed that event was simply coincidence -- the chances of the clock randomly stopping at that moment I've never bothered to calculate, but they are slim. I also seem to have crossed a line between perceiving and doing, which bothered me a great deal because I hadn't a clue about what was really happening.

And then there are voices. The silent voices of the living and the dead, of the angels and the deamons, and of the good and the evil. To people who value their sanity, this should be getting a bit scary. No one I know wants to hear voices, not voices that other people don't hear anyway. And yet it happens all the time. How often do you speak unique phrases in unison with a friend, and even comment that one seemed to be reading the others mind? Familiarity is not the common element here, it is trust or openness. Learing to use boundaries with intuitive people is kind of important if you like privacy. Basically, what you are willing to say with your mouth, can often be perceived to some degree by a sensitive person.

The great fear is this: what if you cannot filter it. What if it comes unbidden, and even unhindered by time or space -- noise -- ceaseless chatter, utterly senseless -- and maddening. Reason. Reason is the filter. But once something is allowed in, and your mind has accepted it (though not explained it), how can you reason it out? Some of those folks end up in hospitals or on psychiatric drugs to cure the rifts in the fabric of their minds. Anyway, that's one of the reasons I discourage the use of any mind altering chemicals recreationally.

Yet, don't you want to "hear" some things? How your lover is doing when you're separated? The eureka solution to a perplexing problem? The voice of God? After my first year of college, I the agnostic/atheist, challenged my brother, the Christian zealot, to a test: what was the status of the adorable babe that had ived next door to us thousands of miles away. He prayed, I meditated. The terrible sounds of twisting metal and breaking glass filled my mind; I heard her scream and I saw her her body mangled and her throat slashed. (This was another one of the things I was never so foolish to do again). The impressions only lasted moments, but how powerful and vivid! It was over 25 years ago and it's still fresh in my mind. My brother looked shocked. He soberly looked at me and said, "She's going to be in a terrible car accident." The contest between my "meditation" and his "prayer" was forgotten as we tried to reason out what we should do now. Call her up? Be careful, hun? What do you say? We did nothing, which I believe is what we were supposed to do. She was in an accident shortly afterward that left her in a neck brace for nearly a year.

Well, I'd say we're squarely in mystical territory now. This is not the province of fundamental Christianity, for sure, yet I find the Bible fascinatingly fill with references to these spiritual senses I'm trying to understand -- and it's like reading a whole different book. I suppose that's why I get so frustrated with Bible bashers -- their rants just sound like hubris to me. I did give up on my agnostic/atheist position eventually, but I was quite stubborn about it, but that's a different subject.

[cuspuser]

I had to jump in here, i hated to see Pierce playing with himself any longer ... tho, i'm not really sure if us evaluating how we use the language of metaphors will get us any closer to the truth about extra-senses, but i must say it is interesting ... i think it would be good for people who speak a language other than english to weigh in and see if the metaphors tend to hold across cultures (even if the placeholders don't - for example red is purity in japan - as opposed to white for all english speaking cultures i know of) but it is still in reference to colours ...

[cuspuser]

I'll say this, when i have had what i consider to be "mystical" events happen, i could often describe it in the type of terms that you ascribe to sound, that is frequency, vibration, pitch, tone, and especially waves, but i have also gotten there with sight metaphors, the speeding up or slowing down of something like a projector ... these are definately not easy things to explain, nor explain away, but you should also be aware that reason can also get you to these places ... tho it cannot bridge certain gaps that require faith, for faith it seems is what you need when there isn't reason/logic to support your feelings. But such things seem to be on a much larger scale than what people normally mean by their hearing metaphors ...

[cuspuser]

did i get any points? lol

[purple13]

It seems some metaphors have been around for a long time. Language is interesting, almost as if it's not man made.

I was trying to think of metaphors involving sight. Here's what I came up with.

Seeing is believing
Seeing eye to eye
An eye for an eye
A picture is worth a thousand words
What you see is what you get
do my eyes deceive me?
open your eyes and you will see

Seems to be the most reliable sense?

[Pierce]

i hated to see Pierce playing with himself any longer ...

It is true that my wife is away (which, is why I've found the time to post here lately)... but I publicly deny your accusation! ;P

[Pierce]

i think it would be good for people who speak a language other than english to weigh in and see if the metaphors tend to hold across cultures (even if the placeholders don't - for example red is purity in japan - as opposed to white for all english speaking cultures i know of) but it is still in reference to colours ...

I've wondered that too. I know from studying the Bible over the years that Hebrew and Greek as well as ancient oriental culture fit well. The notion of red (the color of blood) as purity or a purifier is not unique to Japan.

Revelation 7:14 - And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

My first wife was half Japanese and her Japanese grandfather lived with us for a few years after his wife died. He was a brilliant physicist in his time, and the most gracious man I've ever met. He didn't speak english other than a few words and phrases, but I discovered other ways of communicating with him... I'm not sure I could describe it briefly... but I learned some great life lessons from him.

Anyway, my current wife is from SE Asia and she received her advanced degrees in the Soviet Union (she graduated magna cum laud with a masters in civil engineering, PhD in economics, and was awarded 1st place in the Soviet Academic Olympics Chemistry competition held in Kiev -- she's also the smartest thing I've ever met). Some of our early dates were filled with discussions of the senses and dimensions and my fascination with eastern and western approaches to spirituality. She affirmed that the concepts translated across culture and languages.

[Pierce]

did i get any points? lol

I've decided to change the rules... Everyone now gets to award their own points. There are no limits to the number of points you can award to yourself or others. If you run out of points, simply ask for more -- your point reserve will be automatically increased. There are no consequences to awarding or witholding points. However, points are very valuable -- use them wisely.

[Pierce]

I'll have to write the post on sight a little later due to time... as you've probably noticed the explanations are getting longer as the senses get more complex. The metaphors already contributed are great and they're all like puzzle pieces, clues to the mystery. At least, that's the way I look at it. Sight is generally the first sense that people think of when considering spiritual senses, and in that way it is the most "obvious." But, there are a lot of subtilties, and it's the particular arrangement of the concepts that shed illumination on what it is and how it can be used. Light, for example, is a crucial element. How would we perceive light if we could not see? Certainly there are many shades of meaning to be discovered. Light and darkness, color and hue, mirrors and reflection, even depth perception are part of it.

Here are some passages to play with. See if you can make anything out of them.

1 John 2:11 - But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

Luke 1:79 - To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.

1 Corinthians 13:12 - For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Matthew 15:14 - Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. 16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

[Clara]

It seems some metaphors have been around for a long time. Language is interesting, almost as if it's not man made.
Purple, about language: Claverhouse recently posted a thread called Wagner & the fatal doubt - (I'm going to leave all the explaining to Claverhouse, and Andrew Grey):

http://forums.intpcentral.com/showthread.php?t=1671


Thinking of doubt, I really hope anyone reading this thread, in particular, is practicing healthy doubt in real life. Because, intuition is meant to be of use in our dealings with one another - by itself, it's like a firefly in a jar (it will die; let it be what it's meant for: doing it's firefly stuff).

And we, my fireflies, are meant to be talking those around us. And, if they sometimes express wonder at things we say that they're recognizing for the first time... well, let them celebrate. They're not wrong.

Which is wholly beside the point of the fascinating topic, here. I added that in because a) I can - because we're slightly-off-topic-kind-of-folk; and b) it's part of what I'm thinking about; and c) everything else takes too much thinking right now, as practical necessities needing attention are multiplying like integers.
:) haha I just read a similar thought.

[Clara]

About that perhaps misplaced comment - the other part of that, which was turning around in my thoughts, and has been blinking like a signal light since:
(aren't mixed metaphors fun? oh. well, someone must like them - 'one little guy in the back,' maybe)

To pick up the firefly metaphor (unmixed) again:
Fireflies need to know (alas) that there is much that might seem, at first or even twelfth glace, to be so exactly like a firefly, as to be one. Well, that's not always true. There could be many reasons (to try to list them is to risk missing paying attention) and more than a few ways, for fakes.

Ah, I never claimed to be a poet, either. :whistle:

[cuspuser]

John 2:11 - But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

Luke 1:79 - To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.

Ok, now the reasoning behind this is almost going to be impossible to explain, but the main point won't be ...

i've always been fascinated about why it is supposed to be bad to be in the darkness side of the metaphor as it relates to faith rather than the light side. To me the "light" side indicates some type of amalgamation of all the people together in unity which is achieved when everyone holds the same people and it is in the nature of "light" to want to spread ... thus, it doesn't surprise me that religions who profess to be the light want to convert or save people.

While on the other hand, the dark is passive, it isn't trying to spread it just is, think about some mystic traditions with voids or whatnot - tho many have the all emcompasing light as well. Many times when i've been my most "religious" i've agree i'm in the "dark" but i never felt this was a bad thing, and i definately didn't see myself as a bad person for this, it was merely my individuality and notion of letting people find out for themselves that didn't make me want to "spread", i always thought of the world as more interesting with a plurality of beliefs as opposed to the amalgamation.

anyways the point here is, that some metaphors has gotten a connotation over the years as negative, while in and of themselves these are really neutral terms. (perhaps i should post this in another thread, as religious stuff seems to get a large response on boards these days)

think about the original quotes ... how do you tell that someone is in darkness? they aren't converted to the teachings of their savior correct? because if they don't, they won't get in to heaven? or is there more to it than that?

[Pierce]

think about the original quotes ... how do you tell that someone is in darkness? they aren't converted to the teachings of their savior correct? because if they don't, they won't get in to heaven? or is there more to it than that?

There are definitely more ways of thinking about it. For example, I don't imagine that light and dark have anything to do with knowledge and ignorance. Good and evil would be a more obvious comparison, and to understand what is meant by good and evil requires a great deal more thought. Another framework is helpful for putting this into perspective. The guy who started me down this path also mentioned the "seven dimensions," a rabbit trail I also followed at great length, which proved at least as fascinating. Anyway, as a way of introducing the concept of light in 2nd sight, I'll show you a pattern that is derived from a theory of the seven dimensions.

0 - Outer Darkness - the Abyss - Unforgiveness
1 - Darkness - Hell - Guilt/Condemnation
2 - Shadow - Death/Hades - Fear
3 - Dusk - Space - Bodily desire
4 - Dawn - Time - Reason
5 - Starlight - Knowledge - Faith (by spiritual senses)
6 - Moonlight - Power - Hope
7 - Sunlight - Love - Forgiveness

Prov 4:18 The path of the righteous is like the first gleam of dawn, shining ever brighter till the full light of day.

There is a great deal more to this, but suffice for now to say that most of us vascillate between good and evil, that is between Forgiveness and Unforgiveness. Commonly, people think that your "place" is determined or judged by God. Actually, the parables seem to indicate differently; you choose -- God simply agrees with you. It is those who will not forgive that are not forgiven, and those who condemn that are condemned.

As far as conversion to a particular religion or creed... well, that may not be as it seems either. My wife was raised Buddhist, but she was not an orthadox Buddhist (if there is such a thing). When I asked her what she thought about God, she simply stated that she believed there was one God, who loves us, forgvies us, heals us, and guides our souls. I soon realized that we loved the same God. To say that she was converted to Christianity doesn't any make sense to me. She was already a "Christian" in the way that matters (or perhaps I'm a better Buddhist than I realized).

Truth is truth, whether from the lips of Jesus or Baalam. -- MacDonald

[Pierce]

Finally, the last major post for this topic (at least for fleshing out the idea). Rather that expanding on the theoretical side of it, I'll try to explain it in a way to make it clearer. I see several major areas where this form of intuition might function.

To me, it's kind of like watching a TV. Just like with a radio, there is a tuner that lets you choose the station. Like an old TV set there are a few knobs to adjust the picture. There is one called brightness that increases or decreases the intensity of the picture; there's one called "contrast" that makes clear the distinction between light and dark and the various shades of gray; and there is the tint button for adjusting color. Most often I can choose when to turn it on or off. Sometimes I forget and leave it on, or off; and sometimes the thing just seems to turn itself on, or off.

Frankly, I don't know what to make of the brightness knob, so I leave it on the preset detent and it seems to work just fine. The contrast seems quite important to me and I pay a lot of attention to that. I've had many "visual" experiences, and I'll try to relate them to illustrate. First, light and contrast. I laid out a progression of shades in a previous post, now I'll show how the theory might work in application. Of course, this is my interpretation (but with intuition, our own interpretations are what we have to go on, aren't they?)

Darkness -- At a church meeting during a break, I went to meet a friend and shake his hand. As I approached him, I seemed to see a darkness about his face, a kind of dark haze. It was a rub your eyes and look again to see if it's still there kind of thing. It was not physical at all. He looked and sounded jolly as usual. I smiled and said, "How are you, you dark and gloomy person." It almost seemed like a joke to me, because what I "saw" was so different from what he projected. He responded by urgently asking me, "Does it really show?" "Well, yeah, kind of." "I sat in the parking lot this morning with a gun to my head, trying to decide if I should pull the trigger." He then informed me that he was cheating on his wife, embezzling from his workplace and he was addicted to cocaine. He was so riddled with shame and guilt that he could no longer bear his existence. I think that's living Hell and Darkness. He felt trapped and hopeless in the Dark. It's a bondage that people do not escape without help. Thankfully, he got the help he needed and he's doing well almost 20 years later.

Shadow -- Shadow is about fear. You know how it feels when you stand in a field on a warm day with the sun shining on you? Remember what it feels like when a cloud passes before the sun? Suddenly, you are in shadow -- it's cooler and a shade darker than a moment before. That's the same sensation you get when fear comes over your heart. It seems more spiritual than emotional. I have a friend who flew B-25 bombers during WWII. He described a return from a mission where fear blanketed and gripped the crew, paralyzing them with dread. Realizing they were doomed if it continued,he called upon his faith, he broke himself free from the grip of fear, seized the controls of the plane from the captain and flew the plane to saftey. What it amounts to is "knowing" in a moment of crisis, that you have a destiny and then acting upon it. Or perhaps, recognizing someone caught in the shadow of fear and rousing them to action.

Dusk -- is the evening when the desires of the flesh are indulged. Appetites are satisfied often to excess. Thoughts turn to what we will eat and drink, who we will bed and what other comforts we will seek. The pursuit of the carnal as it were. Reason with yourself and others here.

Dawn -- the morning... direct light is yet over the horizon, but there is indirect light. Plans are made, tools readied. Work is at hand. Mind is focused and alert, body is ready. Remember to look up and wonder -- there is indeed something beyond your reason.

Starlight -- always there day and night, guiding the traveler, and inspiring the artist. The intuitives are here, listening with their hearts, gathering their thoughts, preparing themselves. FAITH.

Moonlight -- a battered visage reflecting the light of the sun; a hope not wishful, but purposeful, stepping beyond knowledge in expectation. HOPE.

Sunlight -- radiance, the fullness of desire, loved and forgiven, loving and forgiving. LOVE.

Each of these seem like a place -- where each of us live our lives. The fulcrum is between dawn and dusk, and we waver between passion and reason. Those that aspire to visions and art ride the oscillating wave down into fear and doubt before rising again. Those who push yet further find themselves at the pinnacle of hope only to drop deeper yet into the depression of guilt. The higher we go, the lower we descend. Up to the mountain tops and down into the valleys we go. (If it gets too extreme, I think they prescribe lithium). Staring at the graph, I wondered if the fulcrum could be changed and what would happen. I think so. If the fulcrum moves down on the scale, one become caught in the darker realms, because you can only go as high as you go low, and the changed pivot locks you in. If the fulcrum moves up, you walk in the light.

So, that is as far as I've gotten with light regarding 2nd sight.

Most of the rest of it seems more obvious to me so I'll breeze through it.

Color, like someone mentioned, seems to indicate the nature of a thing as opposed to it's appearance. A true blue friend, green with envy, etc. I like to see someone's "true colors" (I know that's flag talk from old ships, but I like it anyway). A lot of people spend a great deal of time trying to see aura's. I think it's a waste of time.

Dreams and visions are certainly part of it -- full of symbols and meaning. That's where depth perception comes in. It's good to know where you are (in time and space) in relation to what you are seeing. Else, what use is it? Usually, you don't see literal things, most often it requires interpretation.

If you tend to the goodness of your heart, you will see what you are supposed to see when you are supposed to see it. If not, I wouldn't want to see your visions. And while it may be tempting to "experiment" with this kind of thing, I would not recommend it at all. On the other hand, when it happens, pay attention.

But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

I really thought about whether I should post any of this along the way, and at times I considered deleting and abandoning it altogether. There is probably enough here for some poor soul to wander off on the road to occult mysticism if they're so inclined. Those who consider it rubbish, don't concern me. I just know that, as a young man, I would have given almost anything have someone explain this to me. To know that I wasn't mad, and to understand some boundaries... A very intuitive woman once told me, "You shouldn't go probing about in people's hearts without their permission. It's rude, it's inconsiderate, and it's bad spiritual manners!" The point was well taken since I had assumed the ability to do so gave me the right -- it doesn't.

Well, that's about sums it up. There ought to be plenty of food for thought here for those INTP minds out there. I hope you enjoyed and got something out of it.

[purple13]

Clara, you lost me on the whole firefly thing.

Most interesting, Pierce.

[Clara]

Oh dear, purple... I was trying to address a tangential topic - as it was occurring to me. It wasn't an elaborate thought. I may try again, when my brain has more resouces available... or someone else might.

I have been reading, here, when I haven't logged off before remembering what I wanted to look for :) You all have been carrying the topic well.

My impetus in adding that confusing thing (once again, typing as the thoughts occur) was this : if two different people each experience the world in rather different ways, and if one of them is disregarding their own way of - interacting with the world... and also thinking that they "should" be feeling as the other one does... well, they're trying too hard, with unsatisfactory results. And maybe, instead, imagining how they think they ought to be feeling, or whatever...

All of which is probably not even grammatical, let alone making sense to anyone else But - I'm going to click "post" - because if we can't "think out loud" with one another, well, I just don't accept that. :)

Pierce, you've given all this a whole lot of thought - lots of things for mulling.

[Pierce]

Pierce, you've given all this a whole lot of thought - lots of things for mulling.

Yes, a lot of thought went into it -- and a good deal of pain too, along with the joy of discovery.

Anyway, I was remiss in not crediting the author who inspired me on this journey. His name is George MacDonald. Reading MacDonald's book, PHANTASTES, C.S. Lewis described as the baptism of his imagination (while he was yet an atheist). I also found it fascinating. I think the "seven dimensions and ten senses" quote came out of one of his later works, LILITH. What follows is an excerpt from his poem, "Within and Without" written in 1855.

And lo! Behind me was a great hole in the rock, narrow at the entrance but deep and wide within; and when I looked into it I shuddered, for I thought I saw far down the glimmer of a star. The youth entered and vanished. His guide strode back to his seat, and I lay in terror near the mouth of the vast cavern. When I looked up once more, I saw all the men leaning forward with head aside, as if listening intently to a far off sound. I likewise listened, but though much nearer than they I heard nothing. But I could see their faces change like waters in a windy and half-cloudy day. Sometimes though I heard naught it seemed to me as if one sighed or prayed beside me, and once I heard a clang of music, triumphant in hope; but I looked up, and lo it was the listeners who stood on their feet and sang. They ceased, sat down, and listened as before. At last one approached me, and I ventured to question him. 'Sir,' I said, 'wilt thou tell me what it means!' And he answered me thus. 'The youth desired to sing to the Immortals. It is a law with us that no one shall sing a song who cannot be the hero of his tale, who cannot live the song he sings, for what right hath he else to devise great things and to take holy deeds in his mouth. Therefore he enters the cavern where God weaveth the garment of souls, and there he lives in the form of his own dream, for God giveth them being that he may be tried. The sighs which thou didst hear were his longings after his own ideal, and thou didst hear him praying for the truth he beheld but could not reach. We sang because in his first battle, he strove well and overcame. We await the next.'

[Chicken]

Darkness -- At a church meeting during a break, I went to meet a friend and shake his hand. As I approached him, I seemed to see a darkness about his face, a kind of dark haze. It was a rub your eyes and look again to see if it's still there kind of thing. It was not physical at all. He looked and sounded jolly as usual. I smiled and said, "How are you, you dark and gloomy person." It almost seemed like a joke to me, because what I "saw" was so different from what he projected. He responded by urgently asking me, "Does it really show?" "Well, yeah, kind of." "I sat in the parking lot this morning with a gun to my head, trying to decide if I should pull the trigger." He then informed me that he was cheating on his wife, embezzling from his workplace and he was addicted to cocaine. He was so riddled with shame and guilt that he could no longer bear his existence. I think that's living Hell and Darkness. He felt trapped and hopeless in the Dark. It's a bondage that people do not escape without help. Thankfully, he got the help he needed and he's doing well almost 20 years later.

very interesting, have experienced similar