Revenge

[Vagabond]

How do you feel about revenge? When harmed, or treated with unjustice, do you forgive, forget or get even? Does it have to do with hatred or does it feel more like 'giving a lesson' to the unjust one? How far would you go with revenge? How long can you keep focusing on getting your blood back?

I don't understand the entire thing of revenge, like I don't understand the hatred thing... but I want to...

[Utopmk]

For me its usually filthy, fucking, black hate.
When anger takes over, I do not think of teaching someone a lesson,
I just want to hurt them. :rant: :devil:

(that is if I know they were delibaratley trying to harm me)

[Johnny]

If you really want to understand hatred and revenge, you may be best equipped to do so by "stepping outside of yourself" and reflecting upon it, rather than by acting reflexively as you experience it.

Think about it.

[nobarcode]

I don't know about revenge, but forgiveness? No way, not ever. This is totally within the context of being really "violated". Trust in general terms is the most important to me. If you violate my trust, it is logarythmically more difficult to get it back.

I have "hatred" towards only one person in particular. It's not personal hatred, but is about their actions. They -their actions- are symbolic of certain things I despise about humanity.

[Vagabond]

Hm. I do not experience it, that is why I do not understand it. I guess I wasn't clear on it :blush:

[Division56]

I tend to forbive, but never forget. It's not a hate, it's more of a tag. I've tagged the person as bad news, and then it's just a simple matter of applying the tag when making decisions.

I do get the hate Utop described, but it only lasts a few moments. Then I'll brood for several hours. After that, the process above is applied.

[nobarcode]

Hm. I do not experience it, that is why I do not understand it. I guess I wasn't clear on it :blush:
Consider yourself lucky.

*I need to hold off on posting about this at the moment, because my objectivity in regards to it are poor, to say the very least.*

[Claverhouse]

I think revenge has to be separated into at least two different strands

One is praiseworthy. The father who dedicates his life to getting even with his daughter's killers, say. The Samsonian gesture of destroying the Temple of the Philistines with them all inside. The unforgiving hunt for real evil-doers... fine. There is also a nobility in saying, opposite to what the modern jews allegedly say, 'Forget, but never forgive.' For I could eventually disregard an offence, but I can't imagine forgiving it. I just wouldn't let it worry me too much.

One is ignoble, Bacon ( ever the legalist ) famously called revenge a wild justice. It eats up the soul of the revenger and incites him to equally, and often worse, crimes than those he avenges. It justifies the most horrific acts, and the revenger becomes more degraded by dwelling on the things he would inflict. The ancient jews in their sufferings, real or imagined, dreamt up ghastly things in the Talmud by way of expressing hate.

For personal injuries, I would happily live in a time when one could merely ride with a group of friends or retainers and, without undue pleasure or cruelty, string up the wretch to his own roof-tree... But, I'd never want to degrade them or be cruel, as was often the case in earlier times. Or as if as another has suggested here, we should all go about armed with handguns, I would plug them quickly and watch them die without worrying: but I'd worry for my own sanity if my thoughts dwelt on them or the offence too long.



Claverhouse :ph34r:

[nobarcode]

For personal injuries, I would happily live in a time when one could merely ride with a group of friends or retainers and, without undue pleasure or cruelty, string up the wretch to his own roof-tree...
Claverhouse :ph34r:

:rofl: I know, I said I wouldn't post, but I couldn't resist. And thanks rof teh hmour.

[ohnoaninfp]

I forgive but I don't forget. If a person lies to me, I am not going to trust his or word ever again, even though I might have forgiven them.

[CosmicDust]

I might be wary of people if they wrong me, but I usually find little reason to hold a grudge. Either the issue isn't a big enough deal to me, or I think the person's beef with me was legitimate (that is, I deserved to be a target of revenge).

[ohnoaninfp]

One of the best ways to get revenge on someone brings you down is stop talking to them and live a happily life while they are consumed by their animosity towards you. B)

[The Architect]

Hm. I do not experience it, that is why I do not understand it. I guess I wasn't clear on it :blush:

I don't either. Seems pointless to me. People are going to do things to harm or mistreat you regardless of what you do, so why distract yourself with hating them or even holding a grudge? Sure, defend yourself while it's happening, but after that it's a waste of time and energy, and a hindrance to being productive.

[paladinoflunaria]

-PALADIN-oflunaria says: I am no zealot- revenge is for the ignorant, no matter what form. I'm with Johnny on how to understand it, too. I'm glad that there are some more ethically developed people on this board. Claverhouse, you would do well to be a little wiser. When I was a young child, I was pretty open about my anger, but now I don't feel it except on very rare occasion- there's a logical reason to detach from hatred. See my signature if you haven't already.

[paladinoflunaria]

You cannot save the world, nor rid it of evil, nor any other such foolishness. Why waste your effort when there's so little effort (for some people) to go around?

That's 6-cubed posts!

[Melody]

I like my emotions...I'm not going to force them off because I think that would damage me a lot more than it would to just let them be.

[antireconciler]

revenge is for the ignorant, no matter what form.

I agree. Revenge, hate, and anger are for the fearful. There is nothing more to say about this.

I recommend Dozier's Why We Hate to those interested in this side of human nature. Of all the crappy books I've bought, this one turned out to be very insightful to me.

[Melody]

I would argue running from one's emotions is similarly cowardly. XD

[Google Monster]

I forgive easily. Even when they repeat thier lies. I need to stop that. But I don't trust again if it is done enough.

[indczn]

I dont personally actively pursue revenge... unless it has some substantial benifit to me.
Its not worth the effort just to have the satisfaction of returning the favor to the said individual. Its nice, but rarely worth it as there are practically infinitely more morons out there who are likely to repeat the same offense.

Trust, however. I am way to strict about this because of my general distruct for the populus. People usually only get one chance to screw up and lose my trust. After that, contact usually fades as i dissasociate from their presence. Sadly, it means i dont keep friends for too long, but I am grateful for the solitude that I tend to have.

[antireconciler]

I would argue running from one's emotions is similarly cowardly. XD

Since no one runs from positive emotions directly, you must mean negative emotions. Running from your negative emotions, I take to mean, storing them up inside of you, rather than acting on them. If so, I agree with you. One agressive, the other passive, and neither appropriate.

[Melody]

Ah, good. I mean running from emotions themselves. Having emotions of any kind is not bad. Even pure hatred. If I am pissed at someone, I am pissed at someone. If I go to their house and spill squid die in their toilet and flush that person's head in it, then things have gone too far. I have also never witnessed a "slippery slope" system in myself. Meaning that I have never done something stupid as a result of just my being enraged.

[antireconciler]

Ah, good. I mean running from emotions themselves. Having emotions of any kind is not bad. Even pure hatred. If I am pissed at someone, I am pissed at someone.

You mean acknowleging your emotions? I can understand how not admiting your anger when you are angry (storing feeling inside yourself) isn't right. When I get angry, I find that the entire reason I am angry simply does not exist. I feel the anger, it's there, but it has no foundation. It quickly collapses, as something of that nature should, at which point, my feelings match my thoughts of the matter. To understand is to forgive. When I am angry, I know it is inappropriate to do anything with it except face it, I think, as you say, because that is what history has shown me over and over. This all requires a reference state, and I naturally reference it to a state of silent calm, because, exactly opposite of anger, it is eternal, or does a good job approximating it.

[flan2dave]

Revenge would imply that the action I'm taking to reciprocate the wrong doing will cause similar destructive damage. What if I take an action that causes a productive outcome? Well, of course this means I could take a variety of actions, others more ethical than others, I would choose depending on the circumstances. Going a step back, the most effective strategy would be preventing a situation where thoughts of revenge would emerge in the first place. Good people generally don't make enemies, when they do, it is usually not a matter of revenge.

Well, this gets into the whole idea of conflict and how to resolve it.

[Melody]

You mean acknowleging your emotions? I can understand how not admiting your anger when you are angry (storing feeling inside yourself) isn't right. When I get angry, I find that the entire reason I am angry simply does not exist. I feel the anger, it's there, but it has no foundation. It quickly collapses, as something of that nature should, at which point, my feelings match my thoughts of the matter. To understand is to forgive. When I am angry, I know it is inappropriate to do anything with it except face it, I think, as you say, because that is what history has shown me over and over. This all requires a reference state, and I naturally reference it to a state of silent calm, because, exactly opposite of anger, it is eternal, or does a good job approximating it.
You say that you enter a reference state and find that your anger has no foundation. So, it is essentially nulled out by logic. I believe this is what I am saying is unhealthy. (I was a little confused myself, but we have narrowed it down.)

My problem is that I do not really know why I think this is unhealthy. It may be that it is something like distancing one's self from one's humanness, so it is a form of being that which one is not.

But, if emotions can be nulled by logic by a human, it must be human. >_> D'oh.

Wait a minute, I see now. It does not distance one from one's humanness, but from other humans who exist with their emotions more liberally.

I am not sure about any of this. Maybe I need to write a Socratic dialogue.

[Jezebel]

I'm extremely forgiving because things just tend not to get to me that much. I would have to make effort to stay angry when I just don't care anymore.

However, there was this one time that someone hurt me so bad that I did seek revenge. But the way I sought it was just weird. I'm too paranoid to post the story on a public forum, but the thing was I never even told this person that I got my revenge. I didn't set out to hurt him, but just give a meaningless quality to the reason he hurt me in the first place. I still talk to him though and can honestly say that I have no anger left toward him since I did this.

Wow, now that was vague.

[Claverhouse]

-PALADIN-oflunaria says: I am no zealot- revenge is for the ignorant, no matter what form. I'm with Johnny on how to understand it, too. I'm glad that there are some more ethically developed people on this board. Claverhouse, you would do well to be a little wiser. When I was a young child, I was pretty open about my anger, but now I don't feel it except on very rare occasion- there's a logical reason to detach from hatred. See my signature if you haven't already.

I think you are confusing anger = emotion with revenge = a desire to correct the cosmic balance. I specifically separated the gruesome vain desire to hurt from the need to exact a payment for a horrific wrong. There are many cases where private justice has to be maintained in a world full of wrongs where the established forces either are callous or would rather maintain the doer of injustice. If you were a slave or even today a peasant in some countries and your superiors killed or took away your child for sale, you would be entitled to murder them as at least a lesson; if you had your goods seized by some person and the authorities took no notice you might have to use the ultimate sanction; if you were sent to the gulag for no particular reason, you might feel some resentment for those wasted years, and choose to get back at the informer once one caught up with him; if you had patronising teachers at school you would be entitled to try to make their lives a living hell; if you knew of an establishment that tortured people or animals you would be right to use extreme measures to punish those responsible.

One is not whole unless one can feel and seek truth: and truth means someone who has done something horrible, I could name several famous murderers in my country, ought not to suffer, but really should be sent on his way. And if not by the state, then the relations are entitled to attempt this.

In no way would I ever justify hurting people, even if they had raped or murdered those you loved. Only killing them. There is an instructive legend about Charles II of England: after his return, he refused to institute a terror against those who had murdered his father and ruled the land as a set of brigands. A few executions of the worst, and imprisonment for some of the others, but no White Terror as later in France. However he was supposed to have instituted a travelling troupe of players, who went up and down the land giving performances; once in a while they would be near one of those who had murdered his father. These people were found with their throats cut once the players had moved on. Very elegant and discreet. Very Holy Vehm & Italianate. One should strive for moderation, and for making sure idiots get their just reward.

flan2dave

Good people generally don't make enemies, when they do, it is usually not a matter of revenge.

I don't think the history of the twentieth century confirms this. Even if you avoided trouble, trouble found you. And if I had been a Chinese peasant whose family had starved to death because Mao was a callous fool, I don't doubt I would have tried to knock off a few members of the communist party just to teach them a lesson.

A very famous quote from Kai Lung... :devil:

"It has been said," he began at length, withdrawing his eyes reluctantly from an usually large insect upon the ceiling and addressing himself to the maiden, "that there are few situations in life that cannot be honourably settled, and without any loss of time, either by suicide, a bag of gold, or by thrusting a despised antagonist over the edge of a precipice on a dark night."


Claverhouse :ph34r:

[antireconciler]

You say that you enter a reference state and find that your anger has no foundation. So, it is essentially nulled out by logic. I believe this is what I am saying is unhealthy. (I was a little confused myself, but we have narrowed it down.)


My problem is that I do not really know why I think this is unhealthy. It may be that it is something like distancing one's self from one's humanness, so it is a form of being that which one is not.

But, if emotions can be nulled by logic by a human, it must be human. >_> D'oh.

Wait a minute, I see now. It does not distance one from one's humanness, but from other humans who exist with their emotions more liberally.

I am not sure about any of this. Maybe I need to write a Socratic dialogue.

Melody, I have the hardest time describing this to even myself because the distinction of how exacty anger is coped with is so subtle. I agree with you when you say trying to reason with your emotions and nullify them with logic is unhealthy. Logic can't truly nullify emotions. It's intuition that nullifies them. Reasoning away your feelings (internalizing) is just burying them under the surface, like a beach ball held underwater. It will come back up! Intuition is directly facing anger, reaching through it, as much as it repels you and hurts you, and touching the true nature that lies under it. Like a shockwave, the entire thing becomes absolutely trivial. You see the anger for what it was, just some egotistical, fear-induced, human complexity of something unbelievably simple. The anger collapses, as you face the fear that allowed for it's existance. You didn't chop the weed down, you destroyed the soil it grew from. You no longer feed it your power, you've reclaimed it for yourself. You are once again, an integrated whole.

Does this make sense? Please think on it!

[cloakable]

Heh, I'm a 'never forgive, never forget' type, and I tend to take my time with my revenge - but the offshoot is, I don't take offence easily. However, when I do take offence, I will fuck the person over. It's not nice, and it's not pretty, and it's not good. Not that I have ever given much of a danm about things like that.

[Birdsnest]

I don't use revenge, or feel hate very often unless there really is an outright injustice to me, and even then I try to work through it rather than get back at anyone.

[Melody]

Melody, I have the hardest time describing this to even myself because the distinction of how exacty anger is coped with is so subtle. I agree with you when you say trying to reason with your emotions and nullify them with logic is unhealthy. Logic can't truly nullify emotions. It's intuition that nullifies them. Reasoning away your feelings (internalizing) is just burying them under the surface, like a beach ball held underwater. It will come back up! Intuition is directly facing anger, reaching through it, as much as it repels you and hurts you, and touching the true nature that lies under it. Like a shockwave, the entire thing becomes absolutely trivial. You see the anger for what it was, just some egotistical, fear-induced, human complexity of something unbelievably simple. The anger collapses, as you face the fear that allowed for it's existance. You didn't chop the weed down, you destroyed the soil it grew from. You no longer feed it your power, you've reclaimed it for yourself. You are once again, an integrated whole.

Does this make sense? Please think on it!
Yes, that makes sense. Don't worry, I was indeed reading your posts. It's just that stuff of this nature can evade my grasp due to its ambiguity.

If I get mad, I just grab things and crush them in my powerful grasp and also throw them in the trash really hard. Maybe I will try your samurai method next time I get angry.

[antireconciler]

Yes, that makes sense. Don't worry, I was indeed reading your posts. It's just that stuff of this nature can evade my grasp due to its ambiguity.

If I get mad, I just grab things and crush them in my powerful grasp and also throw them in the trash really hard. Maybe I will try your samurai method next time I get angry.

I know you were. I just really didn't want you to be like "okay, we're different, nice talking with you, goodbye", because a lot of people do that. If I sounded condescending, I did not mean to at all.

If I get really angry at stuff, I pretty much go find something to punch :rolleyes:. Boxes make pretty good targets ;) . I'm really looking at an ideal here I only occasionally come close to. It's hard!

[Avengardh]

How do you feel about revenge?
** I don't usually exercise it.

When harmed, or treated with unjustice, do you forgive, forget or get even?
** When it comes to injustice I stay calm and calculate the pros and cons of things. Usually I believe that what goes around comes around, life will get back at whatever person if that person deserves it.

Does it have to do with hatred or does it feel more like 'giving a lesson' to the unjust one?
** I think it depends on the situation.

How far would you go with revenge?
** I don't really waste my time on it...aside from the usual kid-revenges I inflicted on my brother. I just don't see what I gain.

How long can you keep focusing on getting your blood back?
** Like I said, I focus on letting it go, to simply help myself. I forgive to make myself feel stable again, not to make someone else feel better.



~*Aven*~

[Jkrs]

How do you feel about revenge?
I just don't seem wired for it. Aside from joking around with a few people I knew wouldn't take it too seriously, I've never really considered it an option.


When harmed, or treated with unjustice, do you forgive, forget or get even?
The event gets added to my cache of information on whoever wronged me, and I take whatever precautious seem reasonable to prevent it occouring again, but beyond that the event isn't worth bothering over. I suppose I forgive people when I forget about either the event or them. After that, it's not really real to me, so why should I attach a stigma to it?


Does it have to do with hatred or does it feel more like 'giving a lesson' to the unjust one?
I suppose if someone did something horrific enough to me or someone I care about that the above didn't apply, and the law did nothing, I might have to kill them. From right here and right now, though, it seems more like a social duty thing rather than an action with justice or hatred attached. Much like putting down a rabid animal before it can hurt anyone [else].


How far would you go with revenge? How long can you keep focusing on getting your blood back?
See above, and probably as long as it needed.

[Biff_Loman]

My only experience of revenge is a mental/emotional exercise in fantasy. Periodically, I will imagine vicious scenes of murder and torture, but these are merely outlets for the extreme anger I feel when, in my mind, justice has been breached.

It's inferior Fe. It comes boiling over, and demands some kind of response. Sometimes I think of tying wrongdoers to a post with barbed wire, gouging out their eyes, then leaving them to die of exposure. <shrug> There's something about the thought of an enemy shrieking, begging, and squirming like a hooked worm that is irresistable.

But, the feeling passes fairly quickly. I can't think of a single instance in which I have exacted revenge on someone in reality. I don't believe I've ever been wronged to the point where revenge is appropriate.

Revenge, to me, would come when someone has taken from you something that cannot be replaced: a loved one, years of your life, a bodily function, etc. If the perpetrator was unrepentant, then yes, I believe they deserve to be "taught a lesson," even if the lesson is "you must die now."

I think my worldview is too constructive, ultimately, to leave much room for revenge. It's so pointless when compared to the possibility of resolution. If compassion fails, sheer pragmatism should lead one to avoid burning bridges unnecessarily.

[PsiKik]

I heard somewhere the saying that women where better than men in 2 ways, love and revenge.
My sister in law and her sister sabotaged one of their ex boyfriends dress navy uniform by strategically cutting it with a razor blade in such a way that it would
fall apart when he wore it. They also hid bits of meat around his apartment
so that the place would get stunk out when the meat rotted. I dont know what his crime was, but he was an asshole.

[Boneca]

I never understood revenge at all.
If somebody does something wrong to me, why should I in turn do something wrong to them - it would be the same as lowering myself to their level, wouldn't it?
The only thing I would do is to try to prevent this person from harming others if it wasn't specifically directed at me, but that is not the same as revenge.
Of course I can get angry, but when the situation is over, I just want to get on with my life. I can't see any point whatsoever in prolonging the misery.

It's amusing to read about this though. There are some feelings that I never had, such as envy, jealousy and this wish for revenge, so reading about them helps me understand the motivations of other people. And it confirms my belief that humans are strange creatures. ;)

[mgb]

Plotting revenge is an art. Although, I never actually go through with my plots. I am willing to lower myself though, sometimes you have to play on their level. But I never forget. I may not constantly remember the injustices, but I never forget them.

Mostly I just end up think that some cosmic force will take care of them in some way in the future.

[SheepDog]

Put me in the camp of those who think about it but merely as a way to vent anger. Acting on it just doesn't seem prudent.

Still, I am not particularly forgiving. When I see karma coming around for them, I'm not going to prevent it.

[Zero Angel]

I dont hate them. I pity them.

Then they dispassionately get the 'asshole' label, but *only* if thier intent was to feel superior by pushing me down somehow. Not that I hate them or am still angry at them. I'm over that. I just wont make the effort to put kindness into my personal transactions with them, and plus now that they are lower then dirt to me, I have no problems treating them as such. With confidence.

No elaborate revenge plots or hulk-like anger building required.

Also this guy I knew stole pretty much all my money when I was sleeping, but I wasnt angry for long at him, I had to suffer, but I simply got more cautious and learned my lesson. No problem, its only cash, i'll borrow some for groceries. I knew that if he kept it up for something as temporary as cases of beer, that he would have no true friends and live a shallow unfulfilling life with nobody who trusts him. A few months later, he betrays one of his close confidants (who also has heard his criminal confessions). I imagine that it will happen again in another few months until he has nobody but people who use HIM for whatever he loots breaking into houses. In that way, he's more of a patsy and a little bitch then he might realize.

Like I said, I pity him.