What is Reality?

[tragula]

How you define reality is critical to understanding INTP and others. Is reality just Physical Reality, or is it Social Norms, or is reality actually Truth. I think it can best be described as Truth, and that logic is actually the tool that Rational people use to get in touch with and try to understand Reality. (This is picking up from a discussion in the Philosophy vs. Psychology thread.)

And if it is Truth, then doesn't that mean INTP is actually MORE in touch with it than other types?

Here is a diagram I recently drew about how Psychology and Philosophy have different working definitions of Reality:

[Warrior413]

And if it is Truth, then doesn't that mean INTP is actually MORE in touch with it than other types?
Yes, but the other types have different definitions of reality.

[jittus rye]

It is quite unfortunate that reality is truth, when truth can be so variable.

[CosmicDust]

I'm going with reality being "physical" or whatever you want to call the ultimate substrate of things. What the mind perceives is, I guess, a spin or perspective on reality.

[MjrMarshmellows]

Silly rabbit, Trix are for kids!

[Chicken]

reality is a matter of perception
even facts can seem invalid taken from the right perspective(s)
it's all how you look at it

[Aryan]

WHere's the option for illusion

No i wont vote in "others" :)

[melancholeric]

What is this "reality" thingie I keep hearing about?

[MjrMarshmellows]

When two people fall in love...

[jimkopelli]

Reality is what is. Perceptions and convictions color that, leading to individual subjective realities.

[cuspuser]

technically reality is supposed to be how things actually are, in contrast with the mere appearences ... the problem is that the appearences are what are real to us, and there is a gap between what we are capable of knowing and the perspective needed to have the knowledge that people are looking for (ie. certain knowledge) about what reality is ...

[Hamro]

reality can be anything really..if enough people believe in what isnt the truth, itll flip over and become the truth

[cuspuser]

then u're saying subjective truth is reality ... in which case you could also vote for "reality is just another word for truth" but not in the way most people would think of how "truth" is meant there ... in any event truth and social norms would be the same in that case ...

[Chicken]

Reality is a combination of every living organism's, and every bit of mass/energy's ideas and perceptions all rolled into one.. it is topped with a yummy olive, and served slightly chilled on whole wheat, 7 grain bread as a delectable sammich treat. That would make reality a very healthy and nutritious snack for many! Oh, and the solution to any opposing ideas would be to simply negate them. So, we just lost all our sammiches, damn it. They weren't real in the first place :(

[indie]

Reality is an abstract word people use to describe their concrete world.

[Dman]

Reality is the objective description of a perceived truth. However I would propose that us mere humans can never be 100% objective; this is why it helps to have multiple observers and various tests to get closer to validation of the truth. No, even with millions of observers and tests does that confirm a 100% objective reality, but at some point it gets statistically closer than the argument of something not being real.

For example, the sun revolving around the earth. Virtually everyone accepted this as reality at one point, and tests confirmed it. But eventually there were influential enough people and more knowledge being tested to prove this "reality" as wrong. So over time certain aspects of what we think of as reality can change; while those aspects that do not change continue to get engraved into our minds as further evidence that they are real.

I think it all boils down to consistency and congruency with other observations. The notion that our perceived reality is not what it seems (i.e. the matrix) would require an outside observer to confirm/verify for us.

[bookworm]

I go for reality being "something" objective, out there,
independent of my or our wishes, needs, dreams etc.

Its structure and entities are to be discovered and
explored, though in some cases (math for example)
parts of it might come into existence by our acts
of discovery. But even so its structure, behavior, etc.
don't depend on us.

Ok, I'm not sure what philosophical school that places
me in :)

[Claverhouse]

Reality consists of infinite millions of personal consciousnesses, mainly of creatures, but not limited to their present world-aspect-viewing: also including their other unknowable subjective states and possibilities.

And of all non-animate particles existing in place and time.

And of course of All-Being over-arching all.

Plus God.


It is no more conceivable to a single mind than any other infinite concept.



Claverhouse :ph34r:

[Edmond Zedo]

And if it is Truth, then doesn't that mean INTP is actually MORE in touch with it than other types?
"You've taken your first step into a larger world." SW

I believe it was Keirsey who said it, before I will now say it better, that INTPs, on attaining some godlike level of wisdom, realize that most others are merely faking an understanding of the laws of nature, and despise them for it.

[floid]

Reality is what you have when someone or some thing interrupts your fantasy.

Dream on......

[Johnny]

Reality is actual Physical Reality.

I'd offer "relax and enjoy it", but that response has damaged political futures...LOL

[CreativeChaos]

It all goes back to the tree in the forest line.

If a tree falls in a forest does it make a sound?

Objective Reality says: only if there is an atmosphere that can create "sound waves".


Subjective Reality says: The tree makes "sound" only if there is a creature around that has the instrumentation to perceive it in some form, i.e. an ear drum, that when vibrated is interpreted by the brain as "sound".

[tragula]

"You've taken your first step into a larger world." SW

I believe it was Keirsey who said it, before I will now say it better, that INTPs, on attaining some godlike level of wisdom, realize that most others are merely faking an understanding of the laws of nature, and despise them for it.

I think most people here feel they are "smarter/wiser" than most other types. My point is meant to be more of a self perception and public perception thing.

Should we let ourselves be defined as "aloof, detached from reality, melancholic, loner, absent-minded, disinterested, unambitious." All of which I believe I've seen in various INTP Profiles.

Or, do the following sound a lot better-- "higher reality, big picture, big thinker, sage, wise, insightful, deep."

Perhaps I didn't pick all the right words, but you get the idea.

It may seem superficial to be concerned about our appearance to others, especially when some of us don't exactly have a confidence problem, but this mis-perception problem does seem to be a big hassle for us to say the least.

The even larger question is of course whether or not we can build some sort of mental can-opener that will explain to other people that the earth is not in fact flat...

http://hhgproject.org/entries/totalperspectivevortex.html

[Edmond Zedo]

Should we let ourselves be defined as "aloof, detached from reality, melancholic, loner, absent-minded, disinterested, unambitious." All of which I believe I've seen in various INTP Profiles.

Or, do the following sound a lot better-- "higher reality, big picture, big thinker, sage, wise, insightful, deep."

The even larger question is of course whether or not we can build some sort of mental can-opener that will explain to other people that the earth is not in fact flat...

The positive descriptors sound condescending and hokumesque. I'm all of those things to a degree, negative and positive.

And I just figured out weeks ago that idiots can't be convinced with scientific data, because it LITERALLY BOUNCES OFF THEIR HEADS. Literally.

[Dman]

I think most people here feel they are "smarter/wiser" than most other types. My point is meant to be more of a self perception and public perception thing.


Nah. I think we as INTP's simply value intelligence more than other types, but that does not make us smarter. Just makes us think we are.

Probably the inventors of all the IQ tests were INTP's anyways, so we're favored to score higher!

[CreativeChaos]

I think INTPs *do* value intelligence more highley than other types. I have had several INTP friends and they *definitely* pursued "being intellegent" more so than I. It is the mark of a NT according to Keirsy. "Knowledge" is their highest pursuit. "Benevolence" is the higher pursuit of an NF.

However, intellegence, is valued highly in our society as a whole. It is "brains" that rules the world now, not brawn. And the "geeky" computer types are making billions. So INTPs have a distinct advantage, I think. They *do* actually become more *knowledgable* than most, merely by their adement pursuit of it, whatever their "natural intellegence" may allow.

[garak]

We don't really know what reality is, do we?

[Dman]

"Let's just say I was testing the boundaries of reality" - Jim Morrison

[jyakulis]

Reality, huh? Is this some sort of political jargon?

[QrioCT]

i had a whole theory about this cuz i was wondering the same thing some time ago. its a really theory but here, i'll try to shorten it and not sound like my history teacher. :D

There's two types of them: "facts" and "truths".

the Facts are something definate like 1+2=3. They are 2D. with only one visible side, scientists(and us intps:D) collect pieces of it and try to logically piece them together into a Big Picture. It's all pieces to a big puzzle, and people have arguments on what pic you can create out of the pieces before there's enough pieces for the real pic to emerge.

~"it's important to first gather the data and then draw the conclusion. Or else people try to find data to fit the conclusion, instead of a conclusion that fits the data." -sherlock holmes(not exact, from my memory)

the Truths are something 3D. There's many sides to a truth, like politics. each side of a 3D object is 2D, consisting of certain facts. people often only see one side of it and believe its the only picture, that they're completely right. but in order to really get a Truth, you have to c it from every side and angle. There's all kinds of shapes of Truths. But i think a perfect sphere exists very rarely in reality(looks exactly the same from every side and angle)

That's the basic idea of dimentions here. actually it gets a lot more complex but i'll just shut up now before u report me as a cure for isomnia;)

Here's the diagram:

Fantasy(imagination)/ Thoughts(more practical and logical ideas)/ Non-physical reality(like laws)/ Physical Reality

The dimention gradually gets smaller as you go from the left to the right.
~QrioCT(Curiosity)

[CreativeChaos]

QrioCT wrote:
There's two types of them: "facts" and "truths".

the Facts are something definate like 1+2=3.

That is a great delineation Q. I'd also like to add "beliefs". I think that some of the things you mentioned under politics as many sides to a truth, is really the interplay of belief. Belief exists in politics, religion and many other places. One can only come closer to "believing" something to be true, it large quantities of data and other people support it. It doesn't necessarily make it "true" but the possibilities are greater. And when you think about it, what else can we do but theorize and test our theories?

[CreativeChaos]

Mad Politicians


jyakulis wrote

Reality, huh? Is this some sort of political jargon?


Tragula's Signature Quote:

"They called me mad, and I called them mad, and damn them, they out voted me" -- Nathaniel Lee


*That* is the reality of politics. :ph34r:

[QrioCT]

yeah, good point. beliefs...hmmm...but i think some beliefs are sort of a part of the 3D object. they're often "wrong" because they don't c enough of the object to really understand it.
but there's also beliefs that are completely irrational without any factual(2D) sides to it at all, if that's what ur talking about. i think that's in the category of Fantasy in my diagram(probably beyond 3D, like 4D or something, so it doesn't have 2D/fact sides but 3D sides). refer to my last post if u didnt read the whole thing, yeah i kno, it was long. :D but i don't understand enough about the 4D world to make any metaphors to my theory about it yet. anyone got an idea?

[coffeezombie]

My own reality is the only reality that matters to me. It doesn't disagree enough with the reality of others that I end up doing criminal things and getting thrown in prison, so I don't really care if my reality disagrees with that of others in ways besides that. People rely too much upon what other people think. Try to ignore your experiences of early childhood socialization as much as possible and think for yourself.

[CreativeChaos]

Yeah CoffeZombie,

I look at it as, we have a socialization and a society to live in, and then there are practical matters. We *have* been socialized. And it would benefit us to try to "look outside the box". However, there are practical matters that we can't ignore. Getting a job, making money, eating, etc. Going along with certain social norms (like not urinating on the sidewalk) and the law fits in with the practical matters we all need to adhere to, to get through life happily.

Other than that I think it is moderation. You can spend too much of you're life searching for the "truth" that you never really live your life and can make yourself miserable. However, the importance of searching for "truth" is that if we can understand better what is "really out there" we can "better" our quality of existance.

Q, I'm going to *really* look at your post and try to understand it. It looks neat.

[carol collins]

Seems to me that the Big T (truth) and Reality are too big for my little brain and my ego-centered perspective to get a good grip on.

Sometimes I have it all figured out, my lovely paradigm. Then, things change and I see things from a point just a little bit to the left or right of where I earlier balanced on tiptoe on the big circle of possibility.

Malleable truth. Shifting perspectives.

What you see is what you get.

If you believe it, it's true.

I spend too much time thinking, and not enough time building relationships. This INTP occasionally vacillates into INFJ land. Mmmmm. :whistle:

[philotech]

I don't know and you don't either!
--bumper sticker with the header Militant Agnostic--
Seems appropriate so I posted it.

[Sackanaka]

Malleable truth. Shifting perspectives.


Even though this thread has its many variations, I like to read this topic occasionally to reaffirm the noncraziness of my ideas. That quote struck me; I've made it a point to advocate that "youth is the ability to keep truth malleable."
:D

[Lee]

I think that reality does not understand itself and created intelligent beings to try and figure it out.

[CreativeChaos]

Originally posted by Lee:
I think that reality does not understand itself and created intelligent beings to try and figure it out.

That is a very interesting statement Lee. I like it!

[Lee]

Alternatively it could be a cosmic joke at my expense, maybe I should be flattered.

[Sally]

Reality is subjective. Supposedly there's an objective reality that it's based on, but I'm not betting anything as to its nature.

Where I wisdom comes in, in my opinion, is knowing that you know nothing. There are perceptions and there are assumptions and there are affinities and there are beliefs. The trick is doubting not only yourself but everyone else and the trick after *that* is coming to grips with the fact that many others do not doubt themselves - that for them, Facts are Facts and Beliefs are Truth.

As it's been in my experience, anyway.

[QrioCT]

yeah, that was socrates. "true understanding is when you understand that you understand nothing" or something along the lines. that's because the society's assumptions that eventually sinks into us after years of living in it and they are built on a lot of *assumptions* that no one question on a normal basis.

[scarebear]

I'll quote other people, since it's hard to come up with original thought, if there really is such a thing...

Reality is what you believe it is...

"Tell a man there are 300 billion stars in the universe and he'll believe you. Tell him a bench has wet paint on it and he'll have to touch to be sure."
-Jarger

Reality is an illusion...

"A human being is a part of whole, that we call Universe--a part limited by time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings, as something separated from the rest, a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us towards our personal desires, and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and whole Nature with its beauty. Nobody has been able to achieve it completely, but striving for such an achievement is a part of liberation and foundation for inner security."
-Einstein

[PsiKik]

However, intellegence, is valued highly in our society as a whole. It is "brains" that rules the world now, not brawn. And the "geeky" computer types are making billions. So INTPs have a distinct advantage, I think.

High intelligence is not only to be found in INTP's.
I know a highly intelligent ISTJ, highly competent in technical matters.

We only know reality by what our senses tell us and what our theories
predict might be the case.
Absolute reality, I believe, is physical and unknowable in it's entirety.

[Geoff]

Are you sure intelligence is highly valued? Who on earth told you that?

Look at the most celebrated and well paid individuals of the day, by the wider populace. Are they the most intelligent?

There is a danger in introducing our own bias to an otherwise objective view of society.

-Geoff

[Swift]

Reality is what you believe it is...

Or, as Einstein said: "Reality is a joint fenomenon of the Observer and the Observed."

Truth is not Oneness, rather it is infinite variations of infinite possibilities (or at least, this is the viewpoint of the typical INTP).

[ObstinateBane]

Chickenwrote

-it's all how you look at it

This sums it up nicely, I think.

[wezl]

Reality is pain. You can believe whatever you like and have no reason to doubt it until you crash into reality with an "ouch." If you think you know reality, see optical (how do you spell) illusions and other tricks of the nervous system. Our minds are constructed to define reality by speculating on unknowns and we only know we're wrong when we hit something. reality is pain.

[tragula]

I like this idea of reality as something solid people bump into.

And truth would simply be a description of a very physical reality.

What's interesting is that we sometimes have to deal with the reality of other people's fantasies. And if enough people believe the sun revolves around the earth, then believing the opposite may cause you pain...

BTW, I've liked many people's comments on this thread. Especially the 2D and 3D idea, which I completely agree with. Reality is complex and changeable--but it definitely exists.

[Ka.avik]

I'll vote for other. Actually, rather than the movie, I'll refer you all to Jack L. Chalker's 'wonderland gambit' series -- "everything you think you know is wrong.'

Thus, I see reality as a 'falsehood' the physical reality depends from some framework of the true reality, like a giant mobile. Yes, we can hang our own created decoration from it to be observerd by all, but the framework from which the falsehood of physics hangs is not malleable. At least not by us.

The Man from Mundania (piers anthony book, char thereof...) quoted someone else, Sherlock Holmes I think: "If I doubt everything equally, only that which is correct can withstand my doubt"

Thusly, I doubt any of you are correct. No offense.

[bugsydakid]

...an illusion...

[Harion]

what a very stupid way to conduct a poll

ooh, i have an idea. why don't i make a poll with options which only reflect my way of thinking, then put "others" as an option for everything else.

reality is you don't know what the hell you are talking about.

[NoahFence]

Reality is ranting at someone who quit years before you joined? :think:

[Shmo]

Reality is consciousness.

[Anonymous]

Reality is the check at the end of a meal.

[Neville]

Burning when you pee after an awesome weekend.

[teleforce]

a bitch.