PDA

View Full Version : Feeling versus thinking, pow



joft
29 Dec 2004, 06:53 AM
Human emotions serve a purpose; that is completely understandable from the viewpoint of natural selection.

My observation as an INTP who tends to favor leaning toward my absolute extremes (of thinking and not feeling) is as follows. I am aware of my own natural tendency toward and desire for experiencing feelings. I am aware that there are biological, psychological, and sociological factors which cause me to want to interact with other people and "feel" bad when I don't. The same goes for finding a mate and most of the nuances of that process. I am aware of them, they threaten my T, they threaten to force me to abandon objectivity and become lost in the pheromonal throes of passion. But, as of yet, I have been unable to sever myself from them.

So what is the solution? I don't have much experience, but I've thought about it theoretically. I don't see any way of shutting one or the other off, and they're constantly opposed to each other, at least in my psyche. The paradox seems (to me at least) to stem from the fact that we have this learned (or maybe inherent?) concept that feelings in general, or at least one as strong as "love," have a deeper meaning than just being the formulations of a certain sector of our brain. Is there a hidden motive behind this perhaps? To distinguish between ourselves and other animals? To serve as a base of operations for "spiritual" concepts? Are we unwilling to accept the "cold," "harsh" reality of our existence?

I do have one theory. I think that the advancements of science and education to show us the logical purpose of procreation, being the furthering of our species as according to natural selection, have made it so that by the standards of natural selection, emotions are no longer needed to cause us to procreate. We simply know that if we don't do it, we would cease to exist. I don't purport this to be the end of emotions, as we would still have to have an aesthetic attachment to our species to be motivated to further it anyway. But perhaps they will fade away and be less important as they are less needed.

However, it also seems to me to be the nature of feelings that people tend to want to hold on to them. Some of them are pleasurably addictive, others sentimentally comforting, but all of them have their own means of seeming desirable in our psyche. I experience certain times, call them "weak points," when the objective/logical/thinking portion of my brain seems to be less aware and more prone to allow emotions to grow- unchecked. Whether this is caused by physical weariness (it happens to me a lot at night), or psychical weariness (I'm not sure if this is even possible but sometimes my brain just seems tired), or any combination of those and anything else, I don't know. But it causes a problem, because thinking also won't allow itself to be shut off or ignored completely.

So, perhaps the answer lies in not separating the two... Perhaps the MBTI system, at least to us structured, logical thinkers, causes us to categorize thought and feeling as separate things when they truly are not. I don't mean that we simply need to acknowledge that "feelings" are thoughts in our brain; as that would only lead to redefinition and using different letters in place of T and F. The fight would proceed the same as before only with one less disclaimer to be made beforehand. I mean truly acknowledging that "emotional thoughts" (the redefined "feelings") and logical thoughts are both as purposeful, meaningful, and valid as each other. In essence, targeting the notion that they must be opposed and cannot exist in harmony.

After all, logical, scientific observation would tell us that our logical and observational thoughts are simply the products and constructions of our brain too. They are subject to being wrong, and even harmful to our being, just as emotional thoughts are. Now, I have to stop thinking or I could write a book; but, I still haven't figured this out and I still struggle with it a lot. I experience some loneliness and depression, and I withdraw further into cold, impersonal thought. That only puts it off for a little while, and then it might be worse. Heh, I guess you could say that emotionally withdrawn thought has as many similarities to an addictive substance that emotional thought does.

On that note, as it is almost 2a.m., I just had another theory. I think it might be plausible that the convergence of emotional thought and logical thought is what forms what we might think of as moral thought, or morals. I initially imagined the first two as intersecting lasers, and the resulting constructive or destructive interference as the third. Anyway, I'm probably making a bunch of distinctions that biology would have no reason to say even exist. At this point I don't even remember what the topic of my thread is.

spirilis
29 Dec 2004, 12:25 PM
As a side note, Emotions are separate from "Feeling" in the MBTI type sense. "Feeling" judgmental functions are rational functions which deal with relationship matters. Not necessarily "emotions."

Extraverted Feeling, for instance, would require that we judge something as "right" if other people generally agree through past behavior or tradition that it is right. It considers the personal implications of matters. Emotion is often involved with development of the feeling judgment but it is separate from the cognitive function. Introverted Feeling is more subjective, giving us an internal "compass" of "right vs. wrong" in some instances, kinda like Introverted Thinking gives us a "compass" of impersonal judgment matters.

(this came from Personality Type: An Owner's Manual fyi, summarized)

spirilis
29 Dec 2004, 12:26 PM
I think it might be plausible that the convergence of emotional thought and logical thought is what forms what we might think of as moral thought, or morals.

I think this explains Feeling judgment in a decent way. It's a form of logic derived from personal matters, often "programmed" out of emotional response.

melancholeric
29 Dec 2004, 12:49 PM
That makes sense. Feeling takes personal (or interpersonal) approach, Thinking impersonal. Thinkers are no less "emotional" that feelers. Nor feelers less logical.
Of course, one could argue that impersonal/personal could be confused with Introversion/Extroversion. And Jung (and thus, Myers) actually confused I/E scale with N/S. (Thus, Introverted Sensing would have been oxymoron.)

Boneca
29 Dec 2004, 04:02 PM
(Thus, Introverted Sensing would have been oxymoron.)I always thought it was. Sensing implies that you use your five senses to gather information, but how can you do that without looking outside yourself?

spirilis
29 Dec 2004, 04:09 PM
I always thought it was. Sensing implies that you use your five senses to gather information, but how can you do that without looking outside yourself?
You need to look outside yourself to gather immediate senses, but you don't need to look outside yourself to remember them. Introverted Sensing, as far as I understand it, is a memory-bound function.

melancholeric
29 Dec 2004, 04:16 PM
You need to look outside yourself to gather immediate senses, but you don't need to look outside yourself to remember them. Introverted Sensing, as far as I understand it, is a memory-bound function.
Exactly. Thus SJ types are quite conservative. "This has always been this way, and should remain so." And we are (well I am) quite nostalgic. (edit: I said "we", because I've read this in some INTP profiles, and I can relate to it.)
But Introverted sensing is fundamentally "abstract", and extroverted concrete. Something that has been and something that is, here and now.
Edited again :

(Jung saw IS as something of an oxymoron: sensing, which is a perceiving function, focused inward and thus away from that which is perceived (the "object").
from ISFJ profile (http://typelogic.com/isfj.html) at typelogic.

melancholeric
29 Dec 2004, 07:05 PM
I test consistently as INTP. INTP descriptions fit me near perfectly, and far better than INFP (or any other close type, for that matter). Except the parts about "under-developed" Fe. (Actually, my Fe would be quite nonexistant. I seem to have "over-developed" Fi instead.)

An example of this is when watching a 'weepy' cinema film in which some heart-wrenching scene is being shown. The INTP despises the attempt by the filmmaker to influence his emotions and is more likely to sneer than cry. This response has nothing to do with arrogance, however. Rather it is the INTP defensively avoiding exposing what he knows to be his weak point.
This was me a few years ago. Just some weeks ago, I actually did shed a tear when watching a movie. It is rare, but it happens. I haven't seen myself defending my "weak point" that way for a long time. Maturing?

Another thing.


The INTP enjoys speculating about how a news item (for example) might be received by other people or how a point of view might offend certain types of people and be supported by yet other types; but to have a point of view of his own rarely seems relevant! This also indicates that Feeling is his least developed function.

I enjoy speculating that. But I have my opinions too. Subjective opinions, that is.

Isn't that one definition of T/F? Thinking is objective and Feeling subjective.

Another is that Feeling is connected with values and ethics. But values can be derived from logic, right? No. Because then we would have one objectively true value system, and everyone would agree on that. Or maybe Logic is subjective too. So forget the paragraph above.
Can the two be separated? I have them both working in a (somewhat) balanced harmony. But which one is dominant?

There was an important point about feeling not equaling emotions. I'd think emotions are connected to sensitivity. Some time ago here were a topic about HSP. IIRC, most people here seemed to have some "symptoms" of that.
(This might have something to do with Introversion and maybe NP.) Are feelers more sensitive?

I am one sad, confused INXP. How do I know whether I am an INFP or INTP anyway? What are the differences? In congnitive process, behaviour etc.?
And if you can find a point somewhere in this post, I'd greatly appreciate if you could explain that to me.

Boneca
30 Dec 2004, 03:31 AM
This was me a few years ago. Just some weeks ago, I actually did shed a tear when watching a movie. It is rare, but it happens. I haven't seen myself defending my "weak point" that way for a long time. Maturing?I am quite easily moved by films and books. I think it's just because I've learned that it doesn't really affect me, it is just "fictional" feelings. Thus I won't get lost in them.
I don't think that makes me a Feeler.

I think you had a point, I'll try to look for it...

Point 1: Everything is more or less subjective, when you think of it. Pure objectivity is as hard to achieve as it is to find an absolute truth.

I think the key is if you try to be objective at all. As I understand it, Feelers prefer being subjective by looking at a situation from their own, or from someone else's perspective, while Thinkers prefer taking a "bird's view" approach by not favouring anyone, themselves included.
Being subjective from someone else's point of view would be the same as empathy, and it's generally considered nice to have. While the Thinker strategy might be seen as cold and distant - which goes well with the various type descriptions.
This is of course only my subjective opinion. Perhaps I'm just a deluded ESFJ after all.


Point 2: Values can be derived from logic. But that doesn't mean that everybody would have the same values, because logic is just a tool. If your data is insufficient or incorrect, you could prove anything with logic.

Now, do I get a cookie for finding your points?

Edmond Zedo
30 Dec 2004, 03:36 AM
I got something to say to Paul James. This British bastard says it as well as anyone.


Fuck off, morons.

melancholeric
30 Dec 2004, 09:48 AM
I think my previous post was one those that I should have written down, wait one day, reread it and reconsider if I still feel like posting that.

Thinking and Feeling are decision-making functions. One considers if an action is "right" or "wrong", using either logic or values. If the conclusion is the same, the process of using logic was (in terms of result) wasted. Thus values can serve survival by helping the decision-making. (Pointing out that a "bad" decision is often better that no decision at all, and the ability to make quick decision is awfully helpful in survival game.)

A vegetarian has decided to not eat meat. Ethically, he'd think it is "wrong" to eat fellow animals. Or he could have (for instance) health reasons (thinking of toxins concentrating in food chain). That would be plain logical.

Edited to clarify: We "feel" we shouldn't go around killing each others, because we place "value" on fellow humans. Or we approach this with logic, and think of the consequences. Either way, the result is the same. (In this example, anyway.)

I have very ethical eating habits. I don't eat anything that has not had (atleast at some point of evolution) the chance to run away or defend itself.

melancholeric
30 Dec 2004, 11:18 PM
Now, do I get a cookie for finding your points?
Sure you would, but I don't have any extra cookies around.
(actually I do, but I'm such a selfish bastard)



I got something to say to Paul James. This British bastard says it as well as anyone.



Fuck off, morons.

Feel free to disagree, but that is about the accurate and detailed INTP profile I've seen online so far.

Can anyone actually relate to those passages I quoted from the profile?

Edmond Zedo
31 Dec 2004, 12:11 AM
James is a hack. It's detailed but flawed. He's a true believer in Christianity, which helps to ruin his credibility.

melancholeric
31 Dec 2004, 03:43 PM
How does his religion ruin his credibility in psychology? Newton was into alchemy...

cloakable
31 Dec 2004, 04:28 PM
What has Christianity got to do with MBTI psychcology?
Why are you using an ad hominem attack? It mucks up your logic.

CreativeChaos
31 Dec 2004, 04:53 PM
Cloakable wrote:
What has Christianity got to do with MBTI psychcology?
Why are you using an ad hominem attack? It mucks up your logic.

Yeah! What Cloakable said. Where's the logic in "Fuck off, morons?" That's pure :mad:

It's unlogical angry feeling stuff!

CreativeChaos
31 Dec 2004, 05:12 PM
There's some indepth discussion on this btw under Introductions, INFP/INTP in case you want further readings.

Edmond Zedo
31 Dec 2004, 11:28 PM
I had that Brit tell Paul James to fuck off for me. What's wrong with that?

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who believes in the Christian myth AND says it can be backed up by science is fucking retarded. Sorry!

lexiphanic
6 Feb 2005, 08:37 AM
I had that Brit tell Paul James to fuck off for me. What's wrong with that?

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who believes in the Christian myth AND says it can be backed up by science is fucking retarded. Sorry!

I just don't require that it be. Makes things much simpler.

Edmond Zedo
7 Feb 2005, 11:51 PM
I just don't require that it be. Makes things much simpler.
Okay. Then you aren't retarded.

pmipmi
30 Mar 2009, 01:17 PM
I used to be an INTP, but about one year ago, it seemed I turned out to be an INFP. However now, well, I think I am an INTP again.
well, the border is blurry.
I tend to believe that sometimes the atmosphere would affect the dimention. and when we do lots things related more to one end, then we would behave more likely to some tendency.

augi55
30 Mar 2009, 04:50 PM
I used to be an INTP, but about one year ago, it seemed I turned out to be an INFP. However now, well, I think I am an INTP again.
well, the border is blurry.
I tend to believe that sometimes the atmosphere would affect the dimention. and when we do lots things related more to one end, then we would behave more likely to some tendency.

Ok INXP forum necro.

Edge2070
1 Apr 2009, 05:34 AM
I think that the problem here is, that people tend to judge each other from the exterior. This is evident in how these "feelings" can easily be mistaken with intuitive expression.

turquoise
11 Jul 2009, 05:56 PM
This was me a few years ago. Just some weeks ago, I actually did shed a tear when watching a movie. It is rare, but it happens. I haven't seen myself defending my "weak point" that way for a long time. Maturing?

Maybe maturing. For my part, I realized that it does me good to shear some tears, feeling or not (this is still somewhat unclear to me), but certainly has a cathartic effect.