Our negative effect on people

[Stoned_Rider]

Like it or not, I am someone's son. I am someone's brother. I am someone's husband. I am someone's father. Anything I do reverberates along the threads connecting me to those people I am irrevocably connected to; even NOT making decisions impacts them, not giving them the structure and reassurance they might need to feel secure.

So the INTP traits tend to focus a negative outcome directly on themselves... but this then ripples outward and hits everyone connected. An ESFJ simply manipulates everyone around them directly, does damage directly, and then perhaps destroy themselves in the process once the ripples carry back to them.

Yes, we find their particular sin more offensive because it violates our personal ethics, and perhaps in terms of direct practical effect, there's a difference; in terms of general universal ethics, there is still an equitable negative impact to the social system.

Said another way, if I was depending on someone being involved in my life, if I really needed someone's encouragement and support, if they had made promises to me or had agreed to fulfill a particular role and then welshed/procrastinated/withdrew on me, yes, I would be damaged as much over the long-term as if they had wounded me in the short-term.

(The parent/child relationship is one place where this happens commonly.)
Yes I've been thinking about this for quite some time now, and it has still got me nowhere. Are we really just as bad as (bad) ESFJs?

I understand that if I make a promise of fulfilling a particular role for someone, then I am bound by that committment, and I will do my very best to stick to my promise. But what about the case when people just assume that they can rely on you to be their confidant, best friend, or whatever, when all the evidence points otherwise, and then feel hurt when you don't act that way? Isn't the fault entirely theirs? Should I really feel guilty over other people's false assumptions? Is it wrong to treat people the way I'd like to be treated?

Help me, O Mass Of INTPness.

[AMDG]

Well it's not just the laziness and detachment from people, but it's the intellectual superiority complex as well, always picking people apart and making them feel stupid, hammering at their self-confidence.

I know a couple with an INTP male and an ENFP female, and whenever we all have conversations together he's always picking apart her theories and rationales and stuff so that she now has no confidence in her own intellectual ability any more, and just shuts up like a dumb blonde whenever we talk about 'big' things, though before she was with him, she was a great conversationalist.

The perception that criticism is always constructive and always desired and beneficial, that being correct and logical is always the best and more desirable state, is what makes us come across as cold, arrogant and cruel.

HOWEVER, regarding the people who just assume a commitment from you when you've made no indication of there being one, I do have experience of that and it's very irritating - and ends painfully on all sides. But the last time this happened and I ended up bringing the guy crashing down to earth with a bump, I belatedly realised that I had given indications of commitment and feeling - or at least, things that, as an ESFJ he naturally interpreted that way, but which, from me, were nothing of the sort.

For example, he invited me to lunch at his place - I accepted. To me, nothing more than just a chance to have a chat with someone reasonably intelligent (as he is), but to him, I was accepting his overtures, his friendly advances. I wanted to go camping, but had no car. He said he had a car and wanted to go camping. I said, hey, why don't we go camping together? He said cool. To me - just a simple matter of convenience and logistics. Yeah, the fact that I found him reasonably pleasant company was a factor, but not a huge one. To him - a signal that I wanted to advance the friendship and make it closer by spending time away with him.

Anyway, it all got very messy and I was accused of 'leading him on'; I accused him of 'seeing what he wanted to see and not listening properly'. Both of us were wrong - it was just a horribly miscommunication. That was when (here comes the commercial jingle in the background) I discovered MBTI and went 'AHAAAA!' a lot, realised my mistakes and started to patch up the friendship.

Now I know that I have to be aware of how different types of people may construe my actions towards them, and take care not to give signals to people that I suspect may be interpreted as more than I intended them to be.

[Nighthawk]

Yes I've been thinking about this for quite some time now, and it has still got me nowhere. Are we really just as bad as (bad) ESFJs?

I understand that if I make a promise of fulfilling a particular role for someone, then I am bound by that committment, and I will do my very best to stick to my promise. But what about the case when people just assume that they can rely on you to be their confidant, best friend, or whatever, when all the evidence points otherwise, and then feel hurt when you don't act that way? Isn't the fault entirely theirs? Should I really feel guilty over other people's false assumptions? Is it wrong to treat people the way I'd like to be treated?

Help me, O Mass Of INTPness.

I suppose a lot of it depends upon how autonomous and introspective the other people are. If they are, then your lack of action probably has little effect. NTs are usually very autonomous ... self-governing and independent ... and don't expect other people to cater to them. I know that I have been "guilty" of assuming other people are all like that. I have run across those who feel that their predicament is my fault ... due to my actions or inactions. Almost all have been Extraverts ... most SPs. Not sure if that correlation is anything more than anectodal. Still, it seems to imply (to me, anyway) that non-introspective people have a more difficult time dealing with my inaction than those who are more autonomous.

[AMDG]

I suppose a lot of it depends upon how autonomous and introspective the other people are. If they are, then your lack of action probably has little effect. NTs are usually very autonomous ... self-governing and independent ... and don't expect other people to cater to them. I know that I have been "guilty" of assuming other people are all like that.

And on the flip-side, not realising that some people feel empty and unhappy if they can't administer to someone's needs and contribute to their happiness. If they perceive that you just don't seem to need them, they feel redundant and useless and un-valued. Feeling like a spare wheel in someone's life that's just there on tolerance doesn't do a great deal of good to someone's self-esteem.

[charred_heart]

I understand that if I make a promise of fulfilling a particular role for someone, then I am bound by that committment, and I will do my very best to stick to my promise. But what about the case when people just assume that they can rely on you to be their confidant, best friend, or whatever, when all the evidence points otherwise, and then feel hurt when you don't act that way? Isn't the fault entirely theirs? Should I really feel guilty over other people's false assumptions? Is it wrong to treat people the way I'd like to be treated?

good question.
Ask yourself this, where did they get this assumption? People pick up on a person's views through his or her opinions, so an INTP who stresses the importance of truth is expected to be honest. Now if that INTP is dishonest, s/he is going against the views which s/he adhers to. If you break one of your own rules, regardless of whether you implicitly outlined them out to others or not (they can pick up on some of them anyway) you will be at fault for contradicting your own ethics.

EDIT: Of course, lacking the sensitivity to percieve someone else's emotional state is a disadvantage but not a crime. If it is of importance, this sensitivity will mature over time.

[Nighthawk]

And on the flip-side, not realising that some people feel empty and unhappy if they can't administer to someone's needs and contribute to their happiness. If they perceive that you just don't seem to need them, they feel redundant and useless and un-valued. Feeling like a spare wheel in someone's life that's just there on tolerance doesn't do a great deal of good to someone's self-esteem.

Interesting point. This is exactly what happens from time to time with my ISFJ wife if I am too distant and withdrawn. She has a great need (and capacity) to be needed ... just as great as my need for autonomy and some isolation. Fortunately, I have learned to be more open with people close to me ... and she has found an outlet in her profession (nurse practitioner) to be needed by others.

[Jennywocky]

I had forgotten I had written the original post... Weird to reread something you'd forgotten about.


Yes I've been thinking about this for quite some time now, and it has still got me nowhere. Are we really just as bad as (bad) ESFJs?

I was probably overstating my case a little, to make a point... which is that no one is separate, and even the people who try to hard to be autonomous still end up having a strong impact on the people around them.

If we have relationships (even ones we do not want), everything we do or do not do has an impact.


But what about the case when people just assume that they can rely on you to be their confidant, best friend, or whatever, when all the evidence points otherwise, and then feel hurt when you don't act that way? Isn't the fault entirely theirs? Should I really feel guilty over other people's false assumptions? Is it wrong to treat people the way I'd like to be treated?

I tend to not feel bad over those things nowadays. I try to be agreeable, and flex where I can; but if someone has made assumptions about my relationship to them, without seeming warrant, I will eventually challenge them on it.

I would not bind others to me without their acquiescence, nor do I want to be bound.

Still, there are some relationships (family, basically) where there are inherent expectations that you can't avoid. For example, if you have a kid, you are now a parent whether you like it or not; and every kid has parents, even if they've been disowned. The act of disowning someone itself impacts everyone involved.



Help me, O Mass Of INTPness.

Didn't we change that to INTBox or something? (Didn't follow the end of that thread... <_<)


Nighthawk and I have similar situations, being married to ISFJ's. They need to feel needed, and I know it drove my wife crazy for years because I did not permit her to help me. She has found some other outlets and no longer takes it personally, while I try to make allowance and accept her help and thank her for it. But it took a long time to work out.

[attila_the_hunny]

Fortunately, I have learned to be more open with people close to me ... and she has found an outlet in her profession (nurse practitioner) to be needed by others.

Or when I get mad sick and need some healin'.

[Stoned_Rider]

HOWEVER, regarding the people who just assume a commitment from you when you've made no indication of there being one, I do have experience of that and it's very irritating - and ends painfully on all sides. But the last time this happened and I ended up bringing the guy crashing down to earth with a bump, I belatedly realised that I had given indications of commitment and feeling - or at least, things that, as an ESFJ he naturally interpreted that way, but which, from me, were nothing of the sort.

For example, he invited me to lunch at his place - I accepted. To me, nothing more than just a chance to have a chat with someone reasonably intelligent (as he is), but to him, I was accepting his overtures, his friendly advances. I wanted to go camping, but had no car. He said he had a car and wanted to go camping. I said, hey, why don't we go camping together? He said cool. To me - just a simple matter of convenience and logistics. Yeah, the fact that I found him reasonably pleasant company was a factor, but not a huge one. To him - a signal that I wanted to advance the friendship and make it closer by spending time away with him.

I can totally relate to that, which is why I've been inclined not to accept "friendly advances" from such people because I just know they will get interpreted the wrong way. I especially hate it when they start saying stuff like "hey we're good buddies now innit! we'll do this and that and that.. you can count on me for this and that, we'll go here and there...", it just totally puts me off.

However, this creates yet another problem: you start getting all sorts of accusations of being anti-social! It's either you accept their imposed friendship or you're an arrogant anti-social fuck. I can live with the latter I suppose... it just becomes frustrating when, at the end of the day, my need to reach an independent and rational decision about who to befriend gets interpreted as some sort of perversion. Especially when it comes to family relationships. "You should hang out with your cousins more! You should do stuff with them. They love you! Why can't you be normal just like them?" :rolleyes2:



good question.
Ask yourself this, where did they get this assumption? People pick up on a person's views through his or her opinions, so an INTP who stresses the importance of truth is expected to be honest. Now if that INTP is dishonest, s/he is going against the views which s/he adhers to. If you break one of your own rules, regardless of whether you implicitly outlined them out to others or not (they can pick up on some of them anyway) you will be at fault for contradicting your own ethics.

EDIT: Of course, lacking the sensitivity to percieve someone else's emotional state is a disadvantage but not a crime. If it is of importance, this sensitivity will mature over time.
True, true. But, again, when it comes to family you really have to keep a balance between being honest vs. not hurting their feelings. I stand for truth, that's right, but I don't stand for destruction. This is why I started this topic in the first place. If I find out that my behaviour is inexcusably causing destruction to people's lives, then I think it's time to reconsider. Inexcusably being the keyword of course :devil:



Still, there are some relationships (family, basically) where there are inherent expectations that you can't avoid. For example, if you have a kid, you are now a parent whether you like it or not; and every kid has parents, even if they've been disowned. The act of disowning someone itself impacts everyone involved.
hehe well I'm definitely not planning on having kids anytime soon. This is basically how I see my relationship with my family: They certainly can count on me to be helpful, to stand up for them, to do stuff for them. In other words, if they need anything practical, I'm definitely there. But I'd much rather spend my leisure time doing my thing, thank you very much.

[AMDG]

I can totally relate to that, which is why I've been inclined not to accept "friendly advances" from such people because I just know they will get interpreted the wrong way. I especially hate it when they start saying stuff like "hey we're good buddies now innit! we'll do this and that and that.. you can count on me for this and that, we'll go here and there...", it just totally puts me off.

However, this creates yet another problem: you start getting all sorts of accusations of being anti-social! It's either you accept their imposed friendship or you're an arrogant anti-social fuck.

Yes. The real problem comes when they assume that because you're not ready to be best buddies just yet, this automatically means that you hate them. There's no in-between - it's either 'best pals' or 'why don't you like me?' It's taken the past year for me to get this ESFJ guy to understand that it's not that I don't like him - I do like him and consider him to be a good and intelligent person. I just don't feel ready yet to start calling him a 'close friend', because for me, close friendship depends on mental intimacy and not a mere matter of clocking up hours spent together. He now understands that if he doesn't keep pushing me for more than I can give at the time, then I like him enough that, in time, it's perfectly possible that we might become close friends after all.

EDIT - Mind you SR, I've experienced Arab/Muslim culture at close-quarters, and I'm well aware of the tendency to call someone 'my brother' and claim levels of familiarity and intimacy ("My house is your house! Come in anytime you want! I feel so happy to have a brother like you! We are just like family, because we are the same!" etc) on no greater basis than that they've attended the same mosque as you for a while, even though you've never really talked much and know nothing about each other. While it's very nice and welcoming to the tourist who can leave afterwards, it can be extremely trying for someone who has to live with it - trying, and controlling/manipulative. I feel for you, man.

[fripping]

wow, this thread is actually well-adjusted! :theclap:

[Stoned_Rider]

EDIT - Mind you SR, I've experienced Arab/Muslim culture at close-quarters, and I'm well aware of the tendency to call someone 'my brother' and claim levels of familiarity and intimacy ("My house is your house! Come in anytime you want! I feel so happy to have a brother like you! We are just like family, because we are the same!" etc) on no greater basis than that they've attended the same mosque as you for a while, even though you've never really talked much and know nothing about each other. While it's very nice and welcoming to the tourist who can leave afterwards, it can be extremely trying for someone who has to live with it - trying, and controlling/manipulative. I feel for you, man.
lmao! tout a fait, mate, tout a fait! :D
I was actually about to post something along these lines when I noticed that edit. Extremely tiring, ouais.

[Notsweetynice]

Yes. The real problem comes when they assume that because you're not ready to be best buddies just yet, this automatically means that you hate them. There's no in-between - it's either 'best pals' or 'why don't you like me?' It's taken the past year for me to get this ESFJ guy to understand that it's not that I don't like him - I do like him and consider him to be a good and intelligent person. I just don't feel ready yet to start calling him a 'close friend', because for me, close friendship depends on mental intimacy and not a mere matter of clocking up hours spent together. He now understands that if he doesn't keep pushing me for more than I can give at the time, then I like him enough that, in time, it's perfectly possible that we might become close friends after all.



I'm just beginning to realize that for me to feel close to somebody I have to have this mental intimacy. Like you wrote, 'clocking up hours' isn't ever going to make me feel close. However, if I have a few very close conversations with somebody, I am able to feel very close to them almost immediately....closer than I would to a lifelong friend that I couldn't have deep conversations with. My expectations in relationships are almost unrealistically high for this reason. I expect to have deep conversations with people when they see no need for it and don't want to. My ESFJ mother feels unbelievably close to her mother by talking about such subjects as defrosting chicken and bread sales at the local supermarket. Drives me nuts.

[Jennywocky]

I'm just beginning to realize that for me to feel close to somebody I have to have this mental intimacy. Like you wrote, 'clocking up hours' isn't ever going to make me feel close. However, if I have a few very close conversations with somebody, I am able to feel very close to them almost immediately....closer than I would to a lifelong friend that I couldn't have deep conversations with. My expectations in relationships are almost unrealistically high for this reason. I expect to have deep conversations with people when they see no need for it and don't want to.

Yes, this is exactly where I come from too. (Funny how that works, isn't it?) I've had to deal realistically with the fact that many people are not like me, though, and sometimes the less-deep conversation is where they are and is the best they can give me... and that it's okay. I can still have a friendship with them, just not as deep as I hoped.

But it often leaves some alienation and loneliness in its wake. It's hard to find people I just "click" with, especially with life's many demands. it makes me value the few people I click with even more; they're special.

[Notsweetynice]

I know a couple with an INTP male and an ENFP female, and whenever we all have conversations together he's always picking apart her theories and rationales and stuff so that she now has no confidence in her own intellectual ability any more, and just shuts up like a dumb blonde whenever we talk about 'big' things, though before she was with him, she was a great conversationalist.



I've had that experience with INTP and ENTP males. They loooove to correct and since I'm not the most confident person I usually assume that I am wrong. I figure if this person who is intelligent is correcting me and sometimes almost scoffing at me then I must be wrong. In retrospect I've realized that in most of these situations where an INTP has corrected me I was right! Once I remarked during the movie 2001 (?) that it would suck to die in outer space because you wouldn't really decompose. An XNTP acquaintance basically laughed like I was a total bimbo and said 'umm...that's ridiculous.' As it turns out I was right (or at least the 'experts' would agree with me)! A body would decompose a little bit after death (depends on how fat the person was) and then would freeze. Anyway, it doesn't even matter whether I was right or not. That XNTP made me feel like a dope and I'm not nor was my comment.

[Jennywocky]

I've had that experience with INTP and ENTP males. They loooove to correct and since I'm not the most confident person I usually assume that I am wrong. I figure if this person who is intelligent is correcting me and sometimes almost scoffing at me then I must be wrong. In retrospect I've realized that in most of these situations where an INTP has corrected me I was right!

I've been on both sides of that one, it's not much fun.

I spent a lot of my early "relational" energy not relating but merely finding things to pick apart in other people's comments. It was all I really had to contribute, so that was what I focused on; later, I realized how bad it was for the relationship, even while to me it felt interesting or fun.

But I have been on your side a lot too, simultaneously -- if someone challenged me, if I couldn't prove them wrong or wasn't sure of the answer, I would simply cave and accept that they were correct and I was wrong. Especially if they were J types, and sounded very confident in their opinion.

After awhile, I realized that they weren't always right (and in fact mostly were not) and that I could take more confidence in my abilities, even if I wasn't able to articulate my position well. I'm glad you found that sort of resilience as well.

[kuranes]

My brother keeps indicating that he wants to hear more about "everyday routine" stuff from me when we talk. How my car is running. What kind of meals I make for myself. Since we don't talk that much anymore, I keep thinking that this sort of thing is low priority for those few times each year that we DO talk. We tend to argue a lot these days. I'm not sure if what he really wants is a "listener" who doesn't get to say much, or whether my "reserve" is more problematic than I think it is.

[rainfall]

good question.
Ask yourself this, where did they get this assumption? People pick up on a person's views through his or her opinions, so an INTP who stresses the importance of truth is expected to be honest. Now if that INTP is dishonest, s/he is going against the views which s/he adhers to. If you break one of your own rules, regardless of whether you implicitly outlined them out to others or not (they can pick up on some of them anyway) you will be at fault for contradicting your own ethics.



Hmm. Nu-uh. I don't usually lie, but it does not mean I will not lie when it's beneficial in some way. I have a very complicated moral system so that it may appear that I'm a bit random at times. Suppose a hobo will ask me for change, and I'll lie stating that I don't have any. But I won't lie on something I deem important. I don't understand why people choose a single standard. For instance, people say, "I don't hit girls". Well I don't hit them either, for no reason. But if they attack me, I've no problem dispatching with them as quick and painful as I can. I don't steal, but if my children would be starving because I had no other means of generating quick income, I'd start. I don't kill, but if I perceived someone to be a serious enough threat to something of value to me(family, friends) I would not hesitate to do so. I try to be as punctual as I can, even though no one is there to enjoy it, but once in a while I'm late. ETC, etc, etc.


My brother keeps indicating that he wants to hear more about "everyday routine" stuff from me when we talk. How my car is running. What kind of meals I make for myself. Since we don't talk that much anymore, I keep thinking that this sort of thing is low priority for those few times each year that we DO talk. We tend to argue a lot these days. I'm not sure if what he really wants is a "listener" who doesn't get to say much, or whether my "reserve" is more problematic than I think it is.

I work in construction, therefore you can guess what kind of people I work with. Usually E, S, T, J or P.
They constantly mull over every little detail, new cars, women, lunches, celebrities, who said what and what it means. Sometimes I think it's their way of deconstructing reality into understandable pieces - they just have to do it in groups by talking and arguing. Also, this way a pecking order is created. Who says what, who will not be listened to or even ignored when someone with higher rank is talking, and who has what level of social status* is all conveyed through this constant chatter. If you're being listened to, you're being respected. That's what your brother wants probably - to be talked and listened to (about whatever mundane things) just so that he knows that he's being acknowledged.

*by talking about their car, house, job, wife - overall success - each member of conversation establishes their place. How they say it matters too. Are they confident? Are they lying through their teeth?