enneagram 5 wing 6

[Notsweetynice]

This is an interesting description of the 5 wing 6 type. I noticed a definite difference among some of the members at INTP central from myself, a 5 wing 4. These people fit the 5 wing 6 description to a tee.

Enneagram 5 is most associated with INTP, but 6 is associated with ISXJ. Though enneagram 5w6 individuals are INTP it seems that their N and P are weaker and moving towards SJ.

Those with 5w4 could be INTP as well, but perhaps with a stronger N and P and a weaker T.


http://mindheart.org/junction/oldcj/ep/types/5/56.html

description
sixish skepticism
a dry, sometimes intolerant personality
5/6 may be more interested in politics than nature
detail oriented

unbalanced
intense, argumentative combativeness
rationalize that most people are not honest

[outmywindow]

I test as a 5 or a 5w4 depending on whether or not I'm PMS at the time of the test, which would make sense with the whole w4 leaning more towards F due to a weaker T.

[Notsweetynice]

I test as a 5 or a 5w4 depending on whether or not I'm PMS at the time of the test, which would make sense with the whole w4 leaning more towards F due to a weaker T.

So you become more F during PMS? Hmm...there may be a hormonal relationship to the F/T function. I've also noticed my T/F function changing slightly with my hormones. I had a much stronger T before puberty, probably from less estrogen (a simplistic explanation).

[lbloom]

Nice site, thanks.


Average 5/4 is the prototype personality for research scientists. Analytical and detached from their emotions, but passionate about beauty and truth, they want to find the ultimate, simple explanation for everything.

Precisely.


Those with 5w4 could be INTP as well, but perhaps with a stronger N and P and a weaker T.

Umm, not exactly. The MBTI doesn't quite capture the 5w4, because it makes the T/F mutually exclusive. The aesthetic motivation comes from Fi, but the Ti is still easily the strongest function. They do manage to co-exist. In standard MBTI tests which force a dichotomy, I get high T values, but a strong Fi shows up if there are separate criteria.

[outmywindow]

So you become more F during PMS?

Even though I'm normally quite a strong T, there have been times during PMS that I've found myself surfing the internet looking at pictures of puppies and tearing up at their soft, fuzzy cuteness. True story.

[Notsweetynice]

Umm, not exactly. The MBTI doesn't quite capture the 5w4, because it makes the T/F mutually exclusive. The aesthetic motivation comes from Fi, but the Ti is still easily the strongest function. They do manage to co-exist. In standard MBTI tests which force a dichotomy, I get high T values, but a strong Fi shows up if there are separate criteria.

I've been thinking of the functions as being on a continuum. It never made sense to me any other way.

So Fi/e and Ti/e cannot co-exist, but if they are separated according to Fi, Fe, Ti, and Te then they can co-exist?

[lbloom]

I've been thinking of the functions as being on a continuum. It never made sense to me any other way.

So Fi/e and Ti/e cannot co-exist, but if they are separated according to Fi, Fe, Ti, and Te then they can co-exist?

It's a theory, it isn't perfect. The INTP profile fits me really closely, but the order of functions after the first two isn't quite right. Adding 5w4 sx makes it much clearer.

Here's what I got the last time I checked:

http://forums.intpcentral.com/showpost.php?p=442288&postcount=121

There really isn't a perfect MBTI type for that order, although the two leading functions are a clean fit.

The INFP or ennea 4 profiles aren't like me. I get along with them for periods of intense discussion, but they eventually wear me down, and I need to withdraw for extended periods.

["?"]

I find quite a few similarities with 5w6 and 6w5 (http://mindheart.org/junction/oldcj/ep/types/6/65.html). Some differences are:
Unlike the more analytic 5/6 , 6/5 is more interested in being liked than in understanding the situation, although both are important. 6/5 is typically a traditional, conservative person who wants to fit into a safe, trustworthy group.-AND-
Because the six-wing wants to be liked, they want to be sociable and have friends. But the interaction of the sixish mistrust and the fiveish analysis makes it difficult for them to get close to very many people. They may have more trouble approaching others than the more sociable 6/5.The greatest difference may be in the appearances and callings of the two:
5/6 is interested in fitting in, but not standing out, unless there is extreme identification with ideas, in which case there can be a tortured kind of threeish social aggression. Clothing is usually conservative and often quite understated. Sometimes there is a coarse, gritty sort of appearance. Hair might be a bit messy, glasses askew. The six wing (and its threeish stress) sometimes brings in a desire to look sharp and professional, but it is not usually accomplished as smoothly as a real three would do it. Healthy 5/6 often likes to dress well, although there usually must be a conscious effort.

6/5 has the sixish desire to be attractive and likable, but the five wing's withdrawing, analytical nature sometimes makes it hard to know what it takes to be appealing. 6/5 can be extremely attractive, or somewhat scruffy, depending on level of balance and the strength of the wing. Sometimes 6/5 puts on a show of false toughness, dressing in utilitarian, unattractive clothes and assuming defensive, accusatory postures. Others prefer nonthreatening but stylish attire. It is rare to see a 6/5 who stands out because of exceptionally colorful clothing.
Some 5/6es find work that combines non-threatening social interaction with rigorous intellectual exercise. Technical test engineers, chess players, historians, museum curators. Others use their social perceptions more directly, becoming psychologists, social commentators, novelists, social theoreticians, science popularizers. Many become scientists of different kinds, from embryologists to materials specialists. There are 5/6 magicians, psychic debunkers, computer engineers, interpreters, and math teachers. Of course, 5/6es can also be found doing many other kinds of work.

Some 6/5s find work that combines belonging to a group with being alone. Janitors, forest rangers, taxi drivers, bus drivers. They might like to be involved in serious, dangerous protection activities, as police officers, fire fighters, spies, private investigators, paramedics, or ambulance drivers. Others pursue risky hobbies like hang-gliding, rock climbing, skydiving, or scuba while working as architects, train conductors, or electrical engineers. Some find ways to protect underprivileged people, becoming defense attorneys, politicians, or other sorts of advocates. There are 6/5 construction engineers, sanitary engineers, and evangelical ministers. Of course, 6/5s can also be found doing many other kinds of work.Still too close to call, but I know it's one or the other. Good information.

[attila_the_hunny]

So you become more F during PMS? Hmm...there may be a hormonal relationship to the F/T function. I've also noticed my T/F function changing slightly with my hormones. I had a much stronger T before puberty, probably from less estrogen (a simplistic explanation).

Interestingly enough, it was the opposite with me. I was much more F before puberty, and now my F is very underdeveloped and my T reigns supreme.
I may sometimes get a little more heated and more likely to argue during that time [PMS], but it is also because I hold everything in, and that's the only time I can let go. My argument is valid, but more intense than I would like.

[Spring]

All I know is if you combine an INFP personality with a 5 with a 6 wing, then you end up with an egocentric, schizoid bastard who is almost always paranoid of everyone's motives. Oh, and he also loves to chew people out for the things they aren't saying but pretend they are so clever for insinuating.

Nonetheless, I have a very strong N and P, so a weak F must offset that. I do find that the stronger the intuition, the more paranoia and the stronger the perception, the more frustration. I think in general, its an unhealthy combination.

[todayme]

This is an interesting description of the 5 wing 6 type. I noticed a definite difference among some of the members at INTP central from myself, a 5 wing 4. These people fit the 5 wing 6 description to a tee.

Enneagram 5 is most associated with INTP, but 6 is associated with ISXJ. Though enneagram 5w6 individuals are INTP it seems that their N and P are weaker and moving towards SJ.

Those with 5w4 could be INTP as well, but perhaps with a stronger N and P and a weaker T.


http://mindheart.org/junction/oldcj/ep/types/5/56.html

description
sixish skepticism
a dry, sometimes intolerant personality
5/6 may be more interested in politics than nature
detail oriented

unbalanced
intense, argumentative combativeness
rationalize that most people are not honest



I beleive I am a 5 with a wing and I am definatley an intp thats for sure.

[FranG]

description
sixish skepticism
a dry, sometimes intolerant personality
5/6 may be more interested in politics than nature
detail oriented

unbalanced
intense, argumentative combativeness
rationalize that most people are not honest

I think most INTPs on this site fit the 5w6 description. I'm a 5w4. One thing I noticed about the site though is that the 5w6 is more apt to conspiracy theories than the 5w4. Although many will say that FranG definitely fits that mode, I disagree and think that the 5w6 would definitely fall victim to a conspiracy theory or some kind of con much easier due to their desire to be sociable and connect to people. It all stems from the security issues of type 6. Also, my girlfriend is ISFJ and a 6w7 and she definitely has the infamous SJ traits that are denounced on this board. But I've noticed these traits in some of the INTPs here and the 5w6 would explain why.

Here's a good site (http://www.ptypes.com/correspondence.html) for a mapping of MBTI and Enneagram types. I don't really focus on the other stuff on the site so much but I think the mapping is dead on. Per the site, 5w4 most resembles INTJ in MBTI though. I've been considering that about myself as of late. Per Kiersey, INTJs are the most open-minded of all the types and at least entertain most ideas. I defintely can say that's true about me.


I've been thinking of the functions as being on a continuum. It never made sense to me any other way.

So Fi/e and Ti/e cannot co-exist, but if they are separated according to Fi, Fe, Ti, and Te then they can co-exist?

I think this hits it on the head. I think the Enneagram is continuous and more intertwined than MBTI. I lbloom is right in stating that MBTI treats its preferences as mutually exclusive. I believe that's a flaw in MBTI, thus not making it as useful as the Enneagram. That said, MBTI is a quick and dirty predictor of behavior and is pretty accurate in most cases. However, the Enneagram takes into account a lot more factors.

Another observation, if you look at Kiersey's temperament groupings of MBTI and map them to the Enneagram types, you'll notice that they are all over the place. You would think they'd be right next to each other on the Enneagram, but they are scattered amongst the wheel of the Enneagram, falling into different triads. More evidence that the Enneagram provides more insight into personality behaviors (unfortunately it's complicated and takes a little longer to figure out).

[Jennywocky]

Another observation, if you look at Kiersey's temperament groupings of MBTI and map them to the Enneagram types, you'll notice that they are all over the place. You would think they'd be right next to each other on the Enneagram, but they are scattered amongst the wheel of the Enneagram, falling into different triads. More evidence that the Enneagram provides more insight into personality behaviors (unfortunately it's complicated and takes a little longer to figure out).

The reason I give credibility to the MBTI is because it operates from functions, covering all the bases.

There are both perceiving (taking in information) and judging (weighing and making decisions) from information, in both the inner and outer worlds. So all the bases seem to be covered.

And personality is not a "done deal," it's then constructed from motivations -- how one observes and processes information and then acts on it.

The big problem with the ennegram is that it starts with nine seemingly arbitrary personality types, then tries to deconstruct them. (See the assumption here?)

How are these nine archetypes determined? Why were they chosen, and not nine other ones? Why were they arranged the way they were? Are they comprehensive? The Three category, to be honest, comes across as a "catch-all" category to make up for any inherent errors in the system. ("Hmmm. Well, we don't know where to put these people, so let's just make up a type that doesn't really have a type and just pretends to be other types in order to succeed.")

There's not really a rational basis for the theory, it's more like the theory was made, then tweaked to try to get it all in alignment. The MBTI, on the other hand, was not constructed first and then supported by data, it was derived from data, generally.

I'm not saying there's NO truth to the ennegram. Obviously it is useful in explaining type and especially to suggest integration/disintegration directions. But it and the MBTI were constructed in opposite ways; and so at the core, the Ennegram was a theory that was created, then tweaked by the data, while MBTI was derived from data to begin with.

[FranG]

There are both perceiving (taking in information) and judging (weighing and making decisions) from information, in both the inner and outer worlds. So all the bases seem to be covered.

And personality is not a "done deal," it's then constructed from motivations -- how one observes and processes information and then acts on it.


Yeah you're probably right here. I definitely need to study the Enneagram more. But the site I linked above seems to be accurate as far as linking MBTI to the Enneagram types.

I do have a problem with the mutual exclusion of the preferences though in MBTI. The basis are all covered, true, but the weights assigned to each preference are not taken into account. The terms I learned from INTPc is overactive Ne, or undeveloped Ti, etc. But their isn't a type for these cases whereas the Enneagram seems to capture that a little bit more with the wings, the sexual variants, triads, and direction of integration, etc. That said though, I definitely need to become more versed with the Enneagram.

[Notsweetynice]

I'm not saying there's NO truth to the ennegram. Obviously it is useful in explaining type and especially to suggest integration/disintegration directions. But it and the MBTI were constructed in opposite ways; and so at the core, the Ennegram was a theory that was created, then tweaked by the data, while MBTI was derived from data to begin with.

Sounds like you are referring to the difference between inductive (specific to general) and deductive (general to specific) reasoning. I don't believe either one is any more rational than the other.

N types are probably more inclined to use deductive reasoning whereas S types would be more inclined to use inductive reasoning.

[Notsweetynice]

I believe that MBTI and the enneagram reflect underlying neurotransmitter levels/brain structural differences between individuals. They both have validity and are even better when used in concert with eachother. Maybe in the future we can take tests which will tell us our personality based on actual physiological facts; Tests such as these would probably make personality systems obsolete.

[Jennywocky]

Sounds like you are referring to the difference between inductive (specific to general) and deductive (general to specific) reasoning. I don't believe either one is any more rational than the other.

N types are probably more inclined to use deductive reasoning whereas S types would be more inclined to use inductive reasoning.

Huh? Isn't inductive reasoning generally the province of the N function? Inductive reasoning makes leaps -- it decides that since something is true, and something else is similar to the first, then maybe the same thing applies to the second thing. (i.e., "I have seen many white birds of this species. Perhaps all birds of this species are white.")

Deductive reasoning collects facts, then draws a theory from them. That's a linear S-type progression, and there are no real "leaps" -- all the ducks are in a row. (i.e., "All ducks are white. This bird is a duck. Thus, this bird is white.")

[ not that all ducks are white]


I believe that MBTI and the enneagram reflect underlying neurotransmitter levels/brain structural differences between individuals. They both have validity and are even better when used in concert with eachother. Maybe in the future we can take tests which will tell us our personality based on actual physiological facts; Tests such as these would probably make personality systems obsolete.

I'm not sure if there are any discernable physiological facts, at least nothing that can "clinch" matters. The room for variation between individuals is far too great.

(For example, N's probably have a more developed corpus colloseum (sp?) -- the section that connects the hemisphere's together . But women also have a more developed corpus colloseum than men. So is the subject an N, or a female? As soon as you get enough variables, you can't really distinguish.)

Personally, I am not saying the Ennegram is useless. I actually use both. I just happen to feel like MBTI is less arbitrary. But the ennegram is useful if someone actually fits into an archetype.

[Notsweetynice]

Personally, I am not saying the Ennegram is useless. I actually use both. I just happen to feel like MBTI is less arbitrary. But the ennegram is useful if someone actually fits into an archetype.

So you don't fit into any archetype? I find that strange because while I'm out of practice at the moment with regards to the enneagram I used to be very adept at figuring out peoples' enn. type.

BTW, my father is a perfect example of a type 3 and even though he is usually completely skeptical and disinterested about such things, he had to admit that it was an uncanny description. I wouldn't say it was a catch-all type at all. I haven't even met anyone else that fit the 3-achiever as I think I naturally stay away from those people.

[todayme]

I think most 5 / 4 wings are fairly artistic where 5 /6 are problem solvers of the highest order..........my farther is a 6...........and he f.. drives me nuts

[Notsweetynice]

Interesting site FranG. Tell me how it compares to this one; It's the one I refer to most because it seemed to make sense to me.

http://www.breakoutofthebox.com/flauttrichards.htm

The correlations between MBTI and enneagram type were based on 964 people, not theory.

[MiasmaResonance]

I'm not so sure. My N and P are my "weakest" scores (both are even), and I score as 5w4 (though I always have questioned whether I am 5w4 vs 5w6).

[mippus]

I think most INTPs on this site fit the 5w6 description.

Is that an observation or a deduction from the model which seems to suggest that 5w6 seeks more participation in groups than 5w4?

[VivianeScrooge]

i know this thread is old, but i cant help my self.

5w4 are more correlated to intjs rather then intps. 5w4 are more uninterested to be sociable due to the introverted feeling function(they are more incline to follow their convictions)
intps use extroverted feeling function, even though its the inferior function. intps should be more aware of what other peoples feelings are. who establish the suspicion towards society in general (wing 6)
intps like their infp counterparts like to observe and be chameleons, being chameleons are a desperate attempt to be accepted by every body.
intps stereotype are schizoid, and stereotypes are there for a reason(women are feelers and men are thinkers for example. because majority of women are irrational, and men are rational)

i think you are being bias, and only looking at a few indicators of a few description sites about 5w6. you should consider other sites and other discussion threads.
i do think intps are the embodiment of a 5w6, you only stumble in 'more interested in politics then detail nature'
you can see the list of type correlations by dave kelly.
even though this debate is unnecessary because it hurts the well develop super ego that already associates one particular idea of 'the self'. and it does stated that
"A problem is that the two systems do not match up evenly. The Enneagram is about motivation, and the MB is about how we function in the world. They concern to different areas of human psychology, however many people have overlooked this when creating their lists. A certain MB type may appear in multiple Enneagram types, and another MB type may only appear in one."

i'm not a 5 wing 6 nor 4, my wings are balance. so im not trying to glorify a specific enneagram.

[InFlames]

Maybe John Nash wasn't schizophrenic. He could have just been a 5w6 in an unhealthy state.