Why write at all?

[AMDG]

It just seems so odd to me that so many INTPs here are into poetry. Why are you interested? What are you trying to convey? Do you like to write in peotry over prose because it can bring out new hidden nuances? (I do) But what are those nuances? Is this an N thing? Surely it's not an F thing with you. It's not to convey nuances in emotion and meaning, right? :think: So why?


I'd ask, more to the point, why do we ever write anything, since we never actually finish it? I'm speaking for myself here, obviously, and though I know there're bound to be people out there who do finish stuff, I also suspect there're quite a few who don't.

I must have about six unfinished novels on my hard drive, and that was just last year. What happens is always the same: I get a brilliant idea and it pops into my head almost completely formed, in an instant. I have to write it down now. I spend the next three days writing off the top of my head, during which time about 50,000 words emerge of well-written prose. When it gets to about 30 or 40K words, someone'll have a look at it and say it's great and they can't wait to read more, then by 45 I'm flagging, getting bored with it, and by 50 I'm sick of it.

I put it aside, say I'll come back to it another time, when I'm fresher and less fed up of it. But I never do. I just never do.

Anyone else get that? Any ideas why it might be?

[Sojourner]

Yes! I never finish that sort of thing either! But poetry's different. Unless you don't poetize?

Do you plan this stuff out before you start writing? I've heard that helps... *cough* I should try that.

[naruto littles helpers.jpeg]

'When not prompted by vanity, we say little.' -Francois duc de La Rochefoucauld

[Rhu]

When I attempt to do anything creative, it is usually an attempt to see whether or not I can push myself beyond the limits of my vision.

I think testing my limits is my reason for doing anything at all, though.

[htb]

Work on a smaller scale. After four years of blogging, moving gradually to online commentary with little or no citation text, I have 1.2 million words, give or take, to my credit.

[Oculus Sinister]

Either Mark Twain or Earnest Hemingway said he always leaves his writing in mid sentence. Maybe if you try to leave every story in mid-sentence, the boredom will subside. Maybe if you think of each story as a series of infinite, unfolding scenarios the same will happen.

[AMDG]

Yes! I never finish that sort of thing either! But poetry's different. Unless you don't poetize?

Do you plan this stuff out before you start writing? I've heard that helps... *cough* I should try that.

I do finish poetry when I write it, but I write it so rarely that it's hardly anything to boast of. Planning...?! What? If I spent time planning before hand, not only would I completely forget the idea, but I'd also get bored a lot more quickly!



I think testing my limits is my reason for doing anything at all, though.

Extending mine, is often a motivation for me. Like when someone says 'You'll never see it through, you never see anything through' and I say to myself, they're right, I never do, I'm pathetic - then I say no, fuck it, this time I will, I will, dammit! That sometimes works.

But what works better (though not with writing prose) is when it's commissioned by someone else. I always finish what other people commission, even if I only start ten minutes before the deadline.

But I think that's part of the problem with my prose writing. When someone else defines the parameters and criteria and whatever, so I know what I've got to write and what I can't do, it's a lot easier to just go through the motions and see it through, than when I have a blank cheque, so to speak. That's when I just can't decide what to do or the best way to do it, and end up doing nothing. When I have to decide what to do, where to take this idea that seems to have come to me from the ether, once I've actually written down as much as came to me, I just freeze.

Or something.

[AMDG]

Work on a smaller scale. After four years of blogging, moving gradually to online commentary with little or no citation text, I have 1.2 million words, give or take, to my credit.

Yeah I have a few things published, couple of kids' stories, short stories and the odd text book. But they were mostly commissioned. I had a degree of artistic license/freedom with them, but only one was entirely sorta 'self-commissioned'.

I've been blogging for years, but that's not writing. That's just emptying my head out at the end of the day! :)

[htb]

I've been blogging for years, but that's not writing. That's just emptying my head out at the end of the day!Oh! I've been maligned!

Still, a book may be too steep a climb from where you are; or maybe you want to work more quickly than you can. There's a writer who wrote his first article for print at age thirty-eight and wrote his first book thirteen years later. It's a late, but not too bad, bloom; and the example speaks against impatience.

[naruto littles helpers.jpeg]

Books for the Clinically Busy
[from the 'Medicate me, Doctor, please.' series]

"Well, The Light Falls Flat in Autumn Here on This Particulary Variable Day, Metereologically Speaking, of course, in September."

Jim died. "Bastard!," Professor Wendell Roundbottom III exclaimed.

The End.

----------------------------------------------
"The End"

The End!

The End.

----------------------------------------------------------------
"Valet Parking"

"Park the car like a fine lady, my good man!" "No problem, Sir!" "And here's a dollar for the kids." "Thanks. The little one sure has been sick lately." "Well, in that case, here's another one." "God bless you, Sir. You have a heart of Gold!" "Actually, I do. I do, actually."

The End.
---------------------------------------------------------------

We intps can make a billion of these types of books. so i don't know what you really mean, AMDG. ????

[outmywindow]

My roommate is frustrated with me about this to no end. She's convinced that I have boundless potential in the 'making up weird shit' department and it kills her that I never write anything down (anything in the realm of fiction, anyway). She knows that I have unfinished (<-- keyword) plotlines and bizarre characters living in my head but that I don't have the patience or confidence to get it all down on paper. In order to try and fix this she got me drunk one night and made me promise her that I'd write 40 continuous pages before I graduate. This was about three months ago, and as of today I only have 2 or 3 pages down... Oh well.

I'd love to be a writer, but I'm afraid I don't really have anything concrete to write. I literally don't know how to end anything.

[AMDG]

I'd love to be a writer, but I'm afraid I don't really have anything concrete to write. I literally don't know how to end anything.

Yes, that's it! It's not knowing how to end it - not wanting to end it! The setting of the scene, the drawing up of characters, the writing of episodes and events - great fun! The knitting into a climax that draws to a conclusion and ending? No can do.

[euterpenc]

I generally write about ideas or my life in my journal. It is ongoing and not something with a set end point. Such endeavors are hard to finish, so I try to keep things short, or find a way to end them comfortably.

[Sojourner]

Some people suggest that if writer's block assails you, do "metawriting" - working on the characters and the world-setting. Of course, the danger of THAT is that you might get so caught up in those details that it derails the story...

[Petroleum Prole]

I usually get short bursts of inspiration, just ideas or images.
I either write them down, draw them or let them sit, unexpressed in my head.
I think the longest story I ever wrote ended up being ~70 pages on Word. Then I ducked out halfway and started another story.
But that was several years ago, I haven't written out anything at extensive length like that in a while. (Short attention/interest span?)

[camille]

I have no desire to be a writer. My grammar stinks. I can't develop characters. So I just put down whatever is in my head because I feel better afterwards.
I always enjoyed reading about people's lives and finding bits of them in their writing. It's like they write behind a locked door but parts of who they are and where they came from creep out of the cracks.

[Jennywocky]

I'd ask, more to the point, why do we ever write anything, since we never actually finish it? I'm speaking for myself here, obviously, and though I know there're bound to be people out there who do finish stuff, I also suspect there're quite a few who don't.

I must have about six unfinished novels on my hard drive, and that was just last year. What happens is always the same: I get a brilliant idea and it pops into my head almost completely formed, in an instant. I have to write it down now. I spend the next three days writing off the top of my head, during which time about 50,000 words emerge of well-written prose. When it gets to about 30 or 40K words, someone'll have a look at it and say it's great and they can't wait to read more, then by 45 I'm flagging, getting bored with it, and by 50 I'm sick of it.

Sound familiar. I don't get sick of it, I just get ... bored.

I think the act of discovery is important for INTP types -- and the act of exploration. But once the exploration is done and you're left with simply details to implement, things get old. (I'm great at determining the grand themes of my story, and how the characters will interact, and what the overall plot is... but implementing it is such a drudgery.)

The other problem is simply the difficult in taking a grand idea and then translating it into details. Stories are about details. Individual lives are made of details. but I have trouble coming up with scores of details, scores of seemingly arbitrary choices ("Yes, my character will rise about his destructive past and find liberation from the relationships that bound her... but what specifically will she do in Scene 23? And how do I get her from "here to there""?) It's these seemingly arbitrary, uninteresting details/choices that drag down the story.

Couple that with the need to practice, practice, practice, until you become skilled at translating idea/theory into decent story that truly does embody the thoughts you've had just makes story-writing tedious at best sometimes.


Some people suggest that if writer's block assails you, do "metawriting" - working on the characters and the world-setting. Of course, the danger of THAT is that you might get so caught up in those details that it derails the story...

Yes. Exactly.

My best friend (INTP) and I have been working on a fantasy series since 1996. (Yes, over ten years.)

Part of the problem is that we got diverted partway through with our former humor site (Brothers Grinn) for two years, but we also have families and other responsibilities... and we're both just darn awful at the same things.

We know the characters inside and out. We know the overall story for Book One. We've already written a first draft in 1999, and we've been working at this second draft for years. We know the history of the world back about 2000 years (as it impacts the story), we have a plot outline for Book #2, we know how Book #3 will end, and what Book #4 will entail.

But it's a matter of writing the stupid story, getting all the details to make sense, and just doing it. (I think INTP desire to tweak all details and make them make sense can cause some real difficulties as well.) It's very much like Tolkien, who took 11-12 years to write Lord of the Rings: We're better at the "Silmarillion" type stuff, which is less about details of practical living, more about the thematic telling of a story / overall history.

He and I have some different strengths; I'm a more poetic "feel it" writer, while he's worked as a journalist and is great at clean and uncluttered prose, but sometimes I wish one of us were a different personality.... preferably one that enjoyed closure. :)

[cjs55]

Maybe try writing short stories or novellas?

These might be more in tune with the INTP mindset.

[s0978]

same same, though I don't write write- but I know the issue well.

Speculation: aside from enjoying open ended process and embracing potential of things, is it also somewhat about being fearful of criticism. Calling something complete means having to open labor of love to review by others, then reworking.

I know I want to say "nuh uh" to my own question, but I pose it because if it's possible, it's worth posing. yuk yuk.

[AMDG]

same same, though I don't write write- but I know the issue well.

Speculation: aside from enjoying open ended process and embracing potential of things, is it also somewhat about being fearful of criticism. Calling something complete means having to open labor of love to review by others, then reworking.

I know I want to say "nuh uh" to my own question, but I pose it because if it's possible, it's worth posing. yuk yuk.

Yeah, there's an element of that, if I'm brutally honest. I guess cos when I write (or paint for that matter), I put so much of myself into it that I can be extremely sensitive to criticism about it, taking it essentially as criticism of myself, though I don't show that this is how I feel, I just nod and agree and say 'Well, of course it's not completely finished yet...'

That's one reason why I never explain my paintings, never say what they mean or what I was trying to express in them - because it's so personal that laying it out like that would make me feel incredibly vulnerable, even though it annoys the hell out of me when people interpret it for themselves and get it totally wrong - I have to tell them they're wrong, but I daren't tell them what the true interpretation is! :huh:

Sensitive? Me? Pah! :ph34r:

[s0978]

Yeah, there's an element of that, if I'm brutally honest. I guess cos when I write (or paint for that matter), I put so much of myself into it that I can be extremely sensitive to criticism about it, taking it essentially as criticism of myself, though I don't show that this is how I feel, I just nod and agree and say 'Well, of course it's not completely finished yet...'

That's one reason why I never explain my paintings, never say what they mean or what I was trying to express in them - because it's so personal that laying it out like that would make me feel incredibly vulnerable, even though it annoys the hell out of me when people interpret it for themselves and get it totally wrong - I have to tell them they're wrong, but I daren't tell them what the true interpretation is! :huh:

Sensitive? Me? Pah! :ph34r:

how are you about standards? I think much of my prob also is that I think I know when something is good, and unless it meets my perfectionistic standards, I am quite reluctant to put it out there. Even when I kind of know I'd be better served, and my projects, by getting and incorporating feedback and advice, by sharing 'rough drafts.' It doesn't always feel like fear of criticism, but I guess I suspect it is, simply because this seems to speak of some mistrust of others to appreciate work in progress.

[Jennywocky]

how are you about standards? I think much of my prob also is that I think I know when something is good, and unless it meets my perfectionistic standards, I am quite reluctant to put it out there. Even when I kind of know I'd be better served, and my projects, by getting and incorporating feedback and advice, by sharing 'rough drafts.' It doesn't always feel like fear of criticism, but I guess I suspect it is, simply because this seems to speak of some mistrust of others to appreciate work in progress.

I'm reluctant to release things for public consumption that are labeled as "finished," because (1) people might misunderstand them and I'm reluctant to explain works of art, and (2) because it reflects poorly on the ideas themselves.

IOW, I want to do the thoughts/ideals of the story or article justice and feeling like I am letting down the idea if I release it before the kinks are worked out.

For writing that is expected to be brainstorming or informal or has other purposes, then it's not as big a deal.

[naruto littles helpers.jpeg]

if it's good it should be obvious to you. you're only trying to cover for something that's bad. and why should that be such a horrible thing? only so many people can be good writers; in fact literally only a few people are good writers.

[s0978]

IOW, I want to do the thoughts/ideals of the story or article justice and feeling like I am letting down the idea if I release it before the kinks are worked out.

hm, yes, this hits home. But goddammit, I was trying to dig up some emotional rationale so that I might work out how to get over this blocky thing, and you're just helping justify the delayed process.

[Jennywocky]

hm, yes, this hits home. But goddammit, I was trying to dig up some emotional rationale so that I might work out how to get over this blocky thing, and you're just helping justify the delayed process.

All right. Taking the other tactic:

1. You won't ever write anything perfect. You just won't. And after awhile, the energy expenditure is not equal to the outcome; you're just wasting energy. So you need to just write it, revise it a few times, then let it go. This is reality.

2. If you're worried about how the piece reflects on you, don't. Criticism of your piece OR you can be evaluated and then either taken into account or ignored; people who develop a bad taste for you aren't people you want to associate with anyway, so you lose nothing; and you'll find just as MANY people who will be attracted to you because of your writing. It's a "Win" situation.

3. We need to write poorly in order to write better. Few people (if any) pump out perfect work early on. It's more important to write often and thoughtfully, learning as we go, then trying to get our FIRST few things perfectly correct. Our skill needs time to build and increase, and the quicker you write something and let it go and move on, the faster your skill increases and the quicker you will watch your dissatisfaction with your finished work go down, as you continue to write.

I think, in the end, part of the perfectionism is simply part of taking oneself too seriously. At some level, I've stopped caring about being perfect. I'll do my best, and not be sloppy; but I just cannot afford to take myself too seriously anymore.

I just need to 'fess up with what is good work versus bad work, learn from it, and move on.

Does this help?

(case in point: I didn't edit this post and wrote it in 2 minutes or so. Five years ago, I would have taken an hour before posting, to avoid mistakes, to impress people, and to make sure nothing was taking incorrectly. Continual practice, not taking oneself as seriously, and accepting the limitations of the medium helps greatly.)

[s0978]

All right. Taking the other tactic:

1. You won't ever write anything perfect. You just won't. And after awhile, the energy expenditure is not equal to the outcome; you're just wasting energy. So you need to just write it, revise it a few times, then let it go. This is reality.

2. If you're worried about how the piece reflects on you, don't. Criticism of your piece OR you can be evaluated and then either taken into account or ignored; people who develop a bad taste for you aren't people you want to associate with anyway, so you lose nothing; and you'll find just as MANY people who will be attracted to you because of your writing. It's a "Win" situation.

3. We need to write poorly in order to write better. Few people (if any) pump out perfect work early on. It's more important to write often and thoughtfully, learning as we go, then trying to get our FIRST few things perfectly correct. Our skill needs time to build and increase, and the quicker you write something and let it go and move on, the faster your skill increases and the quicker you will watch your dissatisfaction with your finished work go down, as you continue to write.

I think, in the end, part of the perfectionism is simply part of taking oneself too seriously. At some level, I've stopped caring about being perfect. I'll do my best, and not be sloppy; but I just cannot afford to take myself too seriously anymore.

I just need to 'fess up with what is good work versus bad work, learn from it, and move on.

Does this help?

(case in point: I didn't edit this post and wrote it in 2 minutes or so. Five years ago, I would have taken an hour before posting, to avoid mistakes, to impress people, and to make sure nothing was taking incorrectly. Continual practice, not taking oneself as seriously, and accepting the limitations of the medium helps greatly.)

huggles, you're a nice man.

but nah, I thoughta all that before, not good enough.

jk, jk, I guess I know this stuff, but don't really know, yet.

[naruto littles helpers.jpeg]

...

wurd. :)

[AMDG]

It doesn't always feel like fear of criticism, but I guess I suspect it is, simply because this seems to speak of some mistrust of others to appreciate work in progress.

Yes, that rings true. I think part of it is that my ISTJ best friend has, for the past eight years, knocked what confidence I had out of me with his inspector mentality when he's looked at any of my work, be it painting, sketching, poetry, prose, academic work - years of his 'so-so' face (comparing a semi-written novel in progress to Dickens, a comic piece to Stephen Fry, a short story to Chekov, etc) and red pen work have made me paranoid I guess. About the only stuff I dare show him nowadays is the translations I do, and that's only because he doesn't know the original languages and so can't criticise! :lol:

But he's not the only one - I've had quite a few people judging my works in progress as though I were presenting them for critical acclaim as finished products and being overly harsh.


if it's good it should be obvious to you. you're only trying to cover for something that's bad. and why should that be such a horrible thing? only so many people can be good writers; in fact literally only a few people are good writers.

I wouldn't agree with that. I sat on a thesis for about twelve years for fear of criticism and thinking it was crap, and forgot about it, but when someone accidentally saw it in my absence, he was so impressed by it that he put me forward for an honorary PhD - which I was awarded, solely on the basis of that thesis, which I thought was a pile of crap; it was published, too. There's no way I'd have shown it to anyone of my own accord.


All right. Taking the other tactic:

I think, in the end, part of the perfectionism is simply part of taking oneself too seriously. At some level, I've stopped caring about being perfect. I'll do my best, and not be sloppy; but I just cannot afford to take myself too seriously anymore.


Yeah, I get that - I feel that my problem though isn't taking myself too seriously, it's the critics thinking I take myself (or them taking me) more seriously than I do, and judging me accordingly. I think s0532 has it with not trusting people to judge something (or someone) for what it is, rather than what they think it should be. It's like, I'm just chucking something out there and saying 'Hey guys, what do you make of this? It's just an idea I had...' and I get responded to as though I were saying 'Check this out, this is the event of the century, this will blow your mind - I am a genius!'

It's also very much the details thing you talked about earlier. Details, schmetails - boooooring!!

[Jennywocky]

huggles, you're a nice man.
but nah, I thoughta all that before, not good enough.
jk, jk, I guess I know this stuff, but don't really know, yet.

Wow, you're a tough cookie!

Hmmm. Totally new strategy:

1. If you don't ever finish anything, you'll feel like shit for the rest of your misbegotten life (L-L-L-LOSER) and on your deathbed will curse the birth of your mother.

2. You'll spend the rest of your pathetic miserable days bitching on the INTP forums, with a bunch of other losers who don't do anything but post meaningless philosophical drivel and give cynical feedback to people looking for positive motivation.

3. It's better to be a sucky writer who finishes assignments than be a sucky writer who's also a procrastinating pathetic blubbering mass of pointless flesh who never contributes anything even of sucky value to the human race.

4. You'll just become another has-been, washed-up subject of amateur psychological discussion by your equally slacker peers, who will never have the discipline or motivation to publish their analysis of you... so you STILL won't get in print.

[How am I doing? Motivated yet? Feel the passion yet?]

[s0978]

Wow, you're a tough cookie!

Hmmm. Totally new strategy:

1. If you don't ever finish anything, you'll feel like shit for the rest of your misbegotten life (L-L-L-LOSER) and on your deathbed will curse the birth of your mother.

2. You'll spend the rest of your pathetic miserable days bitching on the INTP forums, with a bunch of other losers who don't do anything but post meaningless philosophical drivel and give cynical feedback to people looking for positive motivation.

3. It's better to be a sucky writer who finishes assignments than be a sucky writer who's also a procrastinating pathetic blubbering mass of pointless flesh who never contributes anything even of sucky value to the human race.

4. You'll just become another has-been, washed-up subject of amateur psychological discussion by your equally slacker peers, who will never have the discipline or motivation to publish their analysis of you... so you STILL won't get in print.

[How am I doing? Motivated yet? Feel the passion yet?]hey, fuck you.


(case in point: I didn't edit this post and wrote it in 2 minutes or so. Five years ago, I would have taken an hour before posting, to avoid mistakes, to impress people, and to make sure nothing was taking incorrectly. Continual practice, not taking oneself as seriously, and accepting the limitations of the medium helps greatly.)

Actually, this was the most compelling part. I'm curious to know, given your success in changing self-defeating habits, what the mechanism of the process is, exactly. Did you just decided to suck it up one day and "force" yourself? Do you believe better comprehending your motivations did the trick? Cogitating deeply on the particular issue? (I wonder if this may be key for INTPs in particular, that Ti has to really wrestle with things before can make lasting changes in such behavior/ practice.) Fear of neg consequences (in all seriousness, I no like this approach), and was it a gradual linear progress, or was/ were there a marked shift(s).

I'm sort of a tangent now, but I think it's a worthwhile one. Anatomy of behavioral change, perhaps one particular to our type. I guess I sort of see I have had my successes when thinking and research lead (Ti/ Ne), then belief and conviction can follow (mm, dunno what cog process if any), then implementation can start and good feeling reinforces new habits.

I am really more stuck on implementation here than anywhere I suppose. But I dunno, it might mean I just haven't Ti'ed enough. Because in other arenas getting to 'belief and conviction' seems to automate the rest. mm, maybe.

[Jennywocky]

hey, fuck you.

You're in the Contest too?


Actually, this was the most compelling part. I'm curious to know, given your success in changing self-defeating habits, what the mechanism of the process is, exactly. Did you just decided to suck it up one day and "force" yourself? Do you believe better comprehending your motivations did the trick? Cogitating deeply on the particular issue? (I wonder if this may be key for INTPs in particular, that Ti has to really wrestle with things before can make lasting changes in such behavior/ practice.) Fear of neg consequences (in all seriousness, I no like this approach), and was it a gradual linear progress, or was/ were there a marked shift(s).

Well, it's a good question, and now you're onto the topic of behavioral change in general, which has confounded every human being who has walked the planet. To whit: How do I make myself continue to do something I don't really want to do at the moment, or how do I make myself "want" to change?

I don't have a magic bullet. I think some people are capable of making lifelong decisions in some areas just because they decide to: They have the sort of personality and force of will to just "do it" and never look back. For them, it's like an intellectual awareness, or an awareness of necessity -- once they get the idea, they just can make themselves change.

I can't do that with most things. I think for me, this particular change came simply with getting older, suffering as result of being the way I was, and finally just getting so tired and worn out with the old way of being that I simply "gave up" and said I wasn't going to do it any longer.

That was coupled with an intuitive understanding of all the ways my behavior was self-defeating. So my brain had every reason to change, and my heart had ever reason to change... and my body ran out of energy to do things the old way.

I think getting older helped in terms of giving me opportunities to experience (long-term) the effects of NOT trying to please everyone else, of not being such a perfectionist -- I learned it really wasn't that bad, and that my "casual" work was still pretty good and often sufficient enough for my intentions. The extra effort did not bring much extra reward. (I think failing to go anywhere substantial career-wise, even with all my care and effort, helped me to 'give up trying so hard' as well.)

Is that sort of what you mean?

I hate to reduce things to, "Well, maybe you'll just grow out of it," but that's part of what often seems to happen.

I think Ti helps, sure. The big thing to overcome is that I didn't WANT to change, I prided myself in the old way of doing things. I had to realize the futility of it and finally just give up.

[s0978]

The big thing to overcome is that I didn't WANT to change, I prided myself in the old way of doing things. I had to realize the futility of it and finally just give up.

hm, that is speaking to me. Really wanting the change is the motivation, that is the necessary ingredient. See, one can use this- one can choose to dwell on how much more superstoked one would be, visualize that change and all its supercool consequences, and so on.

But- and I don't want to keep needling you, but you're being interesting!- back to this specific behavior shift- any specific details you can recall? You mention a timeframe of 5 yrs. Maybe you just remember having been shitty at this 5 years ago, but maybe- I guess I'm wondering how conscious this growth was/is, how concerted the effort. What kind of self-talk may have been taking place as you sat down with projects during this time.

One sort of fertile potential for this site, in my view, is there may be INTP ways of handling INTP issues. I'm kinda old too, btw. And one thing which I have learned, I believe- that "strength of will" stuff- that's for J's. I have actually faked that shit quite well, but often it is kind of against my nature, kinda harsh to my system- rather setting up disappointing myself in the long run.

[Jennywocky]

hm, that is speaking to me. Really wanting the change is the motivation, that is the necessary ingredient. See, one can use this- one can choose to dwell on how much more superstoked one would be, visualize that change and all its supercool consequences, and so on.

I'm glad you're seeing something happen... I sort of feel like I'm fumbling around for the light switch until I finally find something that turns it on...


But- and I don't want to keep needling you, but you're being interesting!-

not a problem, if someone can benefit from something I've gone through, so much the better.


back to this specific behavior shift- any specific details you can recall? You mention a timeframe of 5 yrs. Maybe you just remember having been shitty at this 5 years ago, but maybe- I guess I'm wondering how conscious this growth was/is, how concerted the effort. What kind of self-talk may have been taking place as you sat down with projects during this time.

Well, my whole life has been about "growth." I was very introspective and self-deprecating as I grew up, always judging myself as failing and pushing myself harder and harder to "be perfect." (Partly the Oldest Kid thing, partly the Golden Boy mindset, and so on...)

What happened was that I was struggling very hard to make it big in some creative way -- I was spending long hours trying to write the perfect song, write the perfect story, create cartoons and satire, impress people, dazzle them, win their appreciation. I wanted to justify my existence and felt like I was destined for Grand Things, but was trapped in a job I hated, without knowing many people, and not really have any in-roads anywhere.

So I pushed myself and pushed myself. All of my time was spent alone, working on some new grand project meant to win me a career and place in humanity's roster.

I finally crashed and burned. My health got very poor, and I had a spiritual experience where I realized I needed to "die" to all of this stuff and let it go. When it happened, it was really the culmination of all that effort and struggle and just not making headway -- a strong realization that the way I was going about things was not going to work, and even if it did, it would destroy me because my behavior would make me burn out quickly.

The last few years, part of it in therapy, was helping myself adjust to the idea that I no longer had to please people nor be perfect, and to stop worrying about having them get a "wrong picture" about me or misjudge me. I was very worried about being "perceived accurately" and so I tried very hard to be so clear and control people's interpretations of my work and behavior and speech; I just realized how futile and counter-productive it was, and was so tired of running so hard for so long, I knew I had to stop. I just didn't have the energy or will any longer.

Does that help?

Feel free to quiz me further.


One sort of fertile potential for this site, in my view, is there may be INTP ways of handling INTP issues. I'm kinda old too, btw. And one thing which I have learned, I believe- that "strength of will" stuff- that's for J's. I have actually faked that shit quite well, but often it is kind of against my nature, kinda harsh to my system- rather setting up disappointing myself in the long run.

Yeah. It's not that we don't have strong wills... but I am built to "flex" with the system and bend around it, not constantly wave my fist in its face or plow through it. There's an inherent amount of accommodation in me, and I have to somehow make myself work WITH my situation and environment, not deny it or destroy it.

[s0978]

I finally crashed and burned.

Hm! Yeah, I "cracked" myself a few years back, snowballing bunch of stressors, then had to reevaluate whole identity from ground up- think it's a not uncommon thread in stories of people who do experience major changes in worldview/ outlook. Crises are devastating, but also fantastic catalysts.

I like to think I did my mid-life crisis early. Meanwhile still reinventing this new and improved way of life. Not always easy, but a gabajillion times lighter than I used to be.

Thanks for the posts and the spreadin of the wisdom. :)

[MacGuffin]

http://101reasonstostopwriting.blogspot.com/

Just sayin'.

[Mr.Miagi]

Why write at all?

Well, the reason one stops writing is easy. YOU FINISHED WHAT YOU WANTED TO WRITE. It's that simple. Writing is one thing. Writing a novel is another thing. If you want to finish the novel, then you should change your way of thinking. Don't think about the brilliant idea you have. Think about writing your novel. The novel is the end, whereas all your brilliant ideas serves as a means to fulfill the end. You need to think about the bigger picture first, and figure out how to incorporate all the brilliant ideas you have into the bigger picture. Once you've done that, once you've put the novel as central to you writing, all other things will naturally fall into place. If not, write short little stories to get a feel of what you want to do. In the end, writing novels takes a lot of discipline. And the first draft is always is crap, so... revise till you go blue.

[PenguinHunter]

Maybe try writing short stories or novellas?

These might be more in tune with the INTP mindset.

Along these lines. . . I'd recommend trying drama. I've found in the past that I tend to struggle with poetry for still unknown reasons (unless you count the limerick of course - I'm a master limericker!) and prose eventually involves too much painstaking attention to detail to keep my interest further than a short story or essay. Drama on the other hand has always come naturally.

Reasons:

1) It comes out fast.

2) The author of drama gets to be in charge of all the action and ideas without being forced into keeping up at a similar pace with the imagery details. You are free to add in as much or as little of that as you want knowing that ultimately many of those decisions will be left up to the production team at the end. I love the dynamic nature that drama has because of this open-ended aspect - as the author of a play, you aren't expected to finish, finish it.

3) As an introverted perceiver, I think I have a knack for remembering precisely how different kinds of people say things. I've always been told that my dialogue feels very natural, and I've never really had to work at that aspect. I'd guess that most here would be similar. It's just a perk of often being the observer of interactions rather than being at the heart of them.

[smalband]

I was very worried about being "perceived accurately" and so I tried very hard to be so clear and control people's interpretations of my work and behavior and speech;

I do the exact same thing - I worry about my comments, mainly in speech, will be misunderstood and so I try to explain my intentions, often too much. That could be due to my speech though, it seems as if my mouth is always too fast for its own good. I'm much better in writing.

But I'm sliding off topic. What I wanted to say is that at the moment I write a lot, small things, big ideas for other projects, crazy short stories, whatever. Some of it I put up on a blog for my friends to read. I really enjoy writing, but earlier I've been scared of sharing my thoughts with others in that way.

But since I started that blog, my friends have really taken an interest in it and some really look forward to when I make new posts. Which is nice, and reassuring. It makes me feel more comfortable with both my writing, and about myself since most of what I write is based on my own experiences and if not they are my ideas, which means that they are part of me and represents me. So if people like what I write, it means that they like me.

So maybe I should stop being friends with everyone who doesn't like what I write .. :)

Anyway, I can't remember what my point was anymore, but hopefully I made some kind of contribution to what is so far a really good thread. Thank you!

[AMDG]

The thought occurred to me that perhaps specialising in open-ended stories, where the reader is left hanging on a cliff, to draw their own conclusions - you know the ones that drive people crazy but they love and can't resist - that could be something suited to the NTP temperament.

I read a book called 'The Plato Papers' by Peter Ackroyd and it was just the sort of thing I should do - just a collection of thinly connected ideas collated in a way that suggest a story, but entirely up to the reader to interpret. It's a great book.

I just figure that if, in writing, I want to express my own self and really, y'know, put a piece of me out there, then it's better to create my own style that's in keeping with my character, rather than to shoe-horn myself into the blueprint or accepted/expected pattern that people are used to.

[smalband]

I just figure that if, in writing, I want to express my own self and really, y'know, put a piece of me out there, then it's better to create my own style that's in keeping with my character, rather than to shoe-horn myself into the blueprint or accepted/expected pattern that people are used to.

This is what I do, or try to do. The best things I write are the ones where I start off from just one word and improvise the rest. They are never very long, sometimes half a page sometimes one and a half. But they are me, that way of writing comes naturally to me. And it's fun. Which means I'll keep doing it, even if nobody else cares :)

[Varelse]

The thought occurred to me that perhaps specialising in open-ended stories, where the reader is left hanging on a cliff, to draw their own conclusions - you know the ones that drive people crazy but they love and can't resist - that could be something suited to the NTP temperament.

I read a book called 'The Plato Papers' by Peter Ackroyd and it was just the sort of thing I should do - just a collection of thinly connected ideas collated in a way that suggest a story, but entirely up to the reader to interpret. It's a great book.

I just figure that if, in writing, I want to express my own self and really, y'know, put a piece of me out there, then it's better to create my own style that's in keeping with my character, rather than to shoe-horn myself into the blueprint or accepted/expected pattern that people are used to.
I do keep my stories a bit open-ended, and implied.

But as far as open endings go, I remember reading this series: http://www.princeofnothing.com/

[AMDG]

This is what I do, or try to do. The best things I write are the ones where I start off from just one word and improvise the rest. They are never very long, sometimes half a page sometimes one and a half. But they are me, that way of writing comes naturally to me. And it's fun. Which means I'll keep doing it, even if nobody else cares :)

Now see, that's what I'm talking about. Rather than calling yourself a failure because you're 'failing' to complete a standard-length novel that conforms to all the general criteria for what people expect in a novel, surely it's better to try to be the best you can be at the thing that's you? And if long stories with coherent plots and linear storylines and satisfying conclusions really aren't what you're all about, why waste your time forcing yourself to write them? Unless you were doing it purely for the discipline you'd learn from it, I can't see any reason to do it, or to consider yourself to have 'failed' for not doing it.

I know this might sound a teeny bit like rationalising simply not achieving in the world's terms by saying I had a different objective than the one 'they' expected or had for me, and even if it is, I still think I've got a point, here.

I've also written little snippets of prose that are close to poetry and extremely dense in meaning and intense, with much care taken over the crafting of them, even though they're often no more than 100 words long. I wouldn't know what to call them - they're no poetry, they're not stories, they're not comments or anything else - so I've just been calling them 'meditations'. Here's an example of one:

"In this yawning hopeful light my anima animae animis animibus amici sui pro nobis peccatoribus notwithstanding the arches that reach over and above like maidens' arms, hands clasped to arch for passengers that weave between in dance with song and sunlight fluttering and ribbons, sleeves and fiddles mingling, clapping out the ages drawing life and blood of the servant king where pendant elipses rustle and dangle from angular proffering arms and fingers arching over the maidens, under the vaulted stone limbs of my mother where she shelters me, wrapped in a corner of her sanctuary where habits brushed the flagstone centuries tapping my shell without and within, my whole, my always here, just now and when the echoes call me, catch me, sleeping in her tear-spattered sky I fly without a chord to guide me, just a note - Syvati! - let those grinning maws forever loom above me while I swat the incense erupting around me, chiming rhythms of volcano thurible chains like garlands round the ropes in spring... mater mea sanctificetur nomen eum quem amo quem amamus, in saecula saeculorum sicut in principio... dedisti regem quem amo quibus cognoui amorem et humilitatem et seruare..."

I wouldn't make any money from it, I can't imagine anyone publishing this sort of thing, and it's not what most people would call an achievement, but I enjoy it far more than novel writing and it's much more true to myself.

[Jennywocky]

Why write at all?

Well, the reason one stops writing is easy. YOU FINISHED WHAT YOU WANTED TO WRITE. It's that simple. Writing is one thing. Writing a novel is another thing. If you want to finish the novel, then you should change your way of thinking. Don't think about the brilliant idea you have. Think about writing your novel. The novel is the end...

Good point, to cut right to the chase: You write by writing, you write a novel by writing the novel. It's easy to get sidetracked and caught up in the ideas and never finish the book.


And the first draft is always is crap, so... revise till you go blue.

I think the first half of this is Golden Stuff. Drafts are crap, so we have to accept they're crap and not worry about them being crap. I wasted so much time trying to make something not crap, rather than accepting it was crap and just finishing the draft.

I'd revise the second half -- since the first draft is crap, DON'T REVISE THE FIRST TIME THROUGH. Your initial goal is to FINISH THE DRAFT. If you get stuck, or you know it sucks, use it as a placeholder and KEEP GOING. You can't afford to lose momentum.

And what you need is to FINISH THE DRAFT so then your Ne can kick in and look for new patterns you did not conceive of prior. I can't begin to list how many authors write crappy first drafts and then get their good ideas that tie it together. (I know Stephen King's "The Dark Half" did *not* have the "Sparrow" concept that tied the whole book together, on its first draft. And so forth. It came AFTER the "crap draft" was completed, and the writer could analyze the text and see what he had missed the first time.)

You will revise to your heart's content on the second/third draft. Don't worry about editing the first draft while you're writing. Just write.


Along these lines. . . I'd recommend trying drama. I've found in the past that I tend to struggle with poetry for still unknown reasons (unless you count the limerick of course - I'm a master limericker!) and prose eventually involves too much painstaking attention to detail to keep my interest further than a short story or essay. Drama on the other hand has always come naturally.

I think poetry is fun too (usually it has to be sillier poetry, not serious poetry, for me to write quickly).

But there's a real freedom in writing drama, where you are just "hearing dialogue" in your head and not having to worry about all the other garbage that you normally do in prose writing. I find drama very liberating, if you've got an ear for it. It's good advice.


I do the exact same thing - I worry about my comments, mainly in speech, will be misunderstood and so I try to explain my intentions, often too much. That could be due to my speech though, it seems as if my mouth is always too fast for its own good. I'm much better in writing.

Yes... For a long time, I hated the "real-time" aspect of talking. I had little control. Talking is also linear. you have to know what you're going to say before you say it, or you have to know how to speak in a way that allows you to correct as you go without sounding stilted or stupid.

Writing offers much more control.

I sometimes ruin what I write by trying to explain too much, though. Some people have even poked fun at me here by explaining a joke or not just letting a comment stand on its own. (And, sigh, here I go again...)


But I'm sliding off topic. What I wanted to say is that at the moment I write a lot, small things, big ideas for other projects, crazy short stories, whatever. Some of it I put up on a blog for my friends to read. I really enjoy writing, but earlier I've been scared of sharing my thoughts with others in that way. But since I started that blog, my friends have really taken an interest in it and some really look forward to when I make new posts. Which is nice, and reassuring. It makes me feel more comfortable with both my writing, and about myself since most of what I write is based on my own experiences and if not they are my ideas, which means that they are part of me and represents me. So if people like what I write, it means that they like me.

Good for you, I'm glad you jumped off the board (so to speak) and dove in. It's the only way to really learn, and it builds confidence once you get going, and also allows you to contribute who you are to others. It's always better than I think it's going to be, in terms of response from others; I am probably my own worst critic. (Although one or two people here are vying with me for the distinction. :) )

I know needing affirmation is not a great thing (I shouldn't need people's approval), but at the same time, emotionally, it helps to hear from others simply if only to gauge whether my thoughts are "reasonable." So it's not just emotional feedback, it's intellectual feedback and a confidence-builder that I can contribute to others with my ideas. So the affirmation is really helpful and can be a motivator.


...hopefully I made some kind of contribution to what is so far a really good thread.

Jah, you did.


Now see, that's what I'm talking about. Rather than calling yourself a failure because you're 'failing' to complete a standard-length novel that conforms to all the general criteria for what people expect in a novel, surely it's better to try to be the best you can be at the thing that's you? And if long stories with coherent plots and linear storylines and satisfying conclusions really aren't what you're all about, why waste your time forcing yourself to write them? Unless you were doing it purely for the discipline you'd learn from it, I can't see any reason to do it, or to consider yourself to have 'failed' for not doing it.

Exactly. This is the visionary in you talking, and it's how people make a unique name for themselves. Maybe you just don't write as well the conventional way, and you can contribute in a different way. I think creative writers recognize when they just cannot function well in the given "forms and structures" of the time and find their own particular rhythm and form inside, then work within it. Artists do this all the time -- they learn the known forms, then find their own voice.


I know this might sound a teeny bit like rationalising simply not achieving in the world's terms by saying I had a different objective than the one 'they' expected or had for me, and even if it is, I still think I've got a point, here.

Oh, you do.

Sure, it can be a matter of "laziness" I suppose, and sometimes I think ITPs are guilty of taking the "easiest way out" and don't value discipline and hard work to build up skill, realizing their efforts can impact the situation and make them competent over time in the currently weak forms.

But I also think it's the visionary aspect of ITP at work. We look for what works best, and we're not stuck on a current way of doing something. OUr ability to look beyond the box and try something new and seemingly appropriately, intuitively, is our strength and weakness.

So go for it, and meanwhile solicit and evaluate feedback so you can judge yourself.

[AMDG]

I'd revise the second half -- since the first draft is crap, DON'T REVISE THE FIRST TIME THROUGH. Your initial goal is to FINISH THE DRAFT. If you get stuck, or you know it sucks, use it as a placeholder and KEEP GOING. You can't afford to lose momentum.


You will revise to your heart's content on the second/third draft. Don't worry about editing the first draft while you're writing. Just write.

Yeah, I've applied this in the past - still got bored before the end though, when writing long stories, but it's worked and got me through countless academic papers and other non-fiction stuff.


But there's a real freedom in writing drama, where you are just "hearing dialogue" in your head and not having to worry about all the other garbage that you normally do in prose writing. I find drama very liberating, if you've got an ear for it. It's good advice.

Like, tooootally :)

[Sojourner]

"Don't worry about the first draft being crap."

Such good advise. Now, let me try to actually take this advice....

>.>

[evilarchitect]

my take on why prose appeals to me (writing it moreso than reading it) - the nuances and vagueness created by the words/lines and relationships between them is attractive. also, it's a way to tell a story in an esoteric way, and with a lot less effort.

my suggestion: short stories are the way to go. that's the only thing that's helped me. i put the 'end' product up online and then try my best to stop revising it.

[antireconciler]

I used to try to write stories, but never got far because I couldn't get around my questioning of the process. "Why am I writing this? What am I trying to say? Why am I making up characters and situations? What do they have to do with me?" I've read too many bad novels or something and wondered "Why did I read that?" and the only one's I've enjoyed were those that deliberately pushed some perspective. Now that I think about it, I just generally don't like most stories. I don't read fiction, don't watch TV, and only watch movies as a means of socializing, but it's something of a backup. I don't have anything against them, it's just I want to know: "why did you write that?" and if your story contains no clear answer for me, your story probably can't interest me.

A story has to have some kind of passion driving it: a passion to say something. So many writers try to make themselves transparent in a story and merely conjure up situations because, oh, this would be fun, this would be entertaining, NO. WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY!? If there is no fire or passionate need to express that comes straight from the author's being, they're just ... just what even?

Jeez, it's the same thing in visual art like paintings and drawings. There are so many things you can look at and think "oh, that's nice, this or that technique is interesting" and so few you can look at and feel moved by them in any way. And why do you feel moved? Because you feel the power of the voice behind it. The voice that burns to express itself, and you ... you can unite with that.