sometimes americans scare me

[demagogic_schizoid]

What one country anywhere in the world do you consider to be America?s greatest enemy today?

Iran 26%

Iraq 21%

North Korea 18%

China 11%


Fewer Americans See Iran as Main Enemy: Angus Reid Global Monitor (http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/index.cfm/fuseaction/viewItem/itemID/14852)

My thoughts - WTF?!?!?!? 21% of Americans see Iraq, with it's pro-American, secular government, as their main enemy, while only 11% said North Korea.

Am I missing something?

[Jennywocky]

Fewer Americans See Iran as Main Enemy: Angus Reid Global Monitor (http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/index.cfm/fuseaction/viewItem/itemID/14852)

My thoughts - WTF?!?!?!? 21% of Americans see Iraq, with it's pro-American, secular government, as their main enemy, while only 11% said North Korea.

Am I missing something?


No, it's simply the output of the uneducated mindset.

(Don't mean uneducated = bad, I mean just not knowing much about the topic.)

We're at war in Iraq. Politics have been disrupted here for years over Iraq. The Iraq government doesn't seem to be picking up the ball and taking care of themselves.

We don't hear as much about Iran here, and now we're skeptical due to the Iraq fiasco -- the last time the gov told us a country was out to get us, they were wrong.

Iraq causes the most frustration = Iraq is the largest enemy, in the public mind. Seems simple to me.

Really, most people here don't give a flying leap. They've got their own lives and they only pick up what they hear on the news by accident, or in casual reading... and they don't trust what they hear anyway and it has no relevance, unless someone they know has died over there. They just want the war to be over, so they can focus on things here again.

[PonderBee]

Angus Reid is a for-profit corporation that creates and reports polls according to their customers' request. Why would anyone give a damn about the fiction that Angus Reid reports?

[zhang_bob]

Is there a logical reason Americans think Iran is less of a enemy than it was this time last year?

[demagogic_schizoid]

Angus Reid Global Monitor is a component of Angus Reid Strategies?an international partnership dedicated to exploring and understanding public opinion at the regional, national and global level. Founded by Dr. Angus Reid, a Canadian sociologist with over three decades experience in the field of public opinion research, the Angus Reid Global Monitor is a not-for-profit service.

http://www.angus-reid.com/about/index.cfm/fuseaction/communications


admittedly I can't find anything about how exactly they select their respondents. I'm open to evidence.

[sorabji_66]

ask the same group who won the World Series last year and see the 8 or 9 teams that people give as an answer.

[Helios]

We don't have the background knowledge that came from colonizing 1/3 of the planet! Imperialist scum!! ;)

[meanlittlechimp]

If you definie "enemy" as who hates us the most, I would say the countries that we attacked the most recently. Namely the Arab countries. I don't think, who hates us the most is as big of an issue as who is the biggest threat.

Latin Americans hated us in 50s through the 80s. Considering all the invasions and covert actions performed in South East Asia and Latin America during that period.

The Chinese on the other hand is a country that can say no to us. We lost Vietnam because of the Chinese. They lost more troops in that war than we did or even the North Vietnamese did, (in terms of miliatary personnel, excluding civilians). Korea was a draw because of Chinese troops buffering North Korea. The Chinese also lost more troops in that war than the US, South Koreans or North Koreans did.

The North Koreans can wave their nukes around because they KNOW the US won't do anything. South Korea, Japan and China would not tolerate an invasion of North Korea, and the US knows it. Iraq on the other hand had no regional protection, so the US goes in with impunity. Same reason we invaded or toppled governments in Canada, Chile, East Timor, Guatemala, Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Panama, Honduras, list goes on and on.

[demagogic_schizoid]

If you definie "enemy" as who hates us the most, I would say the countries that we attacked the most recently. Namely the Arab countries. I don't think, who hates us the most is as a big of an issue as who is the biggest threat.

Latin Americans hated us in 50s through the 80s. Considering all the invasions and covert actions performed in South East Asia and Latin America during that period.

The Chinese on the other hand is a country that can say no to us. We lost Vietnam because of the Chinese. They lost more troops in that war than we did or even the North Vietnamese did, (in terms of miliatary personnel, exclusing civilians). Korea was a draw because of Chinese troops buffering North Korea. The Chinese also lost vastly more troops in that war than The US did.

The North Koreans can wave their nukes around because they KNOW the US won't do anything. South Korea, Japan and China would not tolerate in invasion of North Korea, and the US knows it. Iraq on the other hand had no regional protection, so the US goes in with impunity. Same reason we invaded or toppled governments in Canada, Chile, East Timor, Guatemala, Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Panama, Honduras, list goes on and on.

I'd agree. I'd say N.Korea's govt. is the most hostile and provocative to the US, but the biggest threat is definitely China, which could do more damage to the US than those other countries combined.

[meanlittlechimp]

If you definie "enemy" as who hates us the most, I would say the countries that we attacked the most recently. Namely the Arab countries. I don't think, who hates us the most is as big of an issue as who is the biggest threat.

Latin Americans hated us in 50s through the 80s. Considering all the invasions and covert actions performed in South East Asia and Latin America during that period.

The Chinese on the other hand is a country that can say no to us. We lost Vietnam because of the Chinese. They lost more troops in that war than we did or even the North Vietnamese did, (in terms of miliatary personnel, excluding civilians). Korea was a draw because of Chinese troops buffering North Korea. The Chinese also lost more troops in that war than the US, South Koreans or North Koreans did.

The North Koreans can wave their nukes around because they KNOW the US won't do anything. South Korea, Japan and China would not tolerate an invasion of North Korea, and the US knows it. Iraq on the other hand had no regional protection, so the US goes in with impunity. Same reason we invaded or toppled governments in Canada, Chile, East Timor, Guatemala, Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Panama, Honduras, list goes on and on.

Can't believe no one called me on the Canada thing.

[Architectonic]

Can't believe no one called me on the Canada thing.

That's because we don't take you seriously. :ph34r:

[meanlittlechimp]

That's because we don't take you seriously. :ph34r:

You fell into my trap!! the US invaded Canada in 1812 and 1866.

And the US toyed with the idea in the 1930s - War Plan Red.

[Tayshaun]

This is an example of what many people think Americans are like.

http://casurf.accela.jp/Fat%20american.JPG

(Fox News running in background, burp and ass scratching as introduction) "Those fucking Iraqis are a threat to our national security and our lifestyle. Where's my beer?"

This is of course an exaggeration and a negative stereotype, but please tell it is mostly wrong, because otherwise, :horror:

[meanlittlechimp]

This is an example of what many people think Americans are like.

http://casurf.accela.jp/Fat%20american.JPG

(Fox News running in background, burp and ass scratching as introduction) "Those fucking Iraqis are a threat to our national security and our lifestyle. Where's my beer?"

This is of course an exaggeration and a negative stereotype, but please tell it is mostly wrong, because otherwise, :horror:

This is coming from someone who's country sided with the Nazis during WWI and WWII and think good cuisine is eating fermented herring......

You guys are bitching cause you wish you were doing the invading, but riding the Nazi coat tails didn't work out.

Don't hate the playa, hate the game.

[dubbeltop]

sometimes americans scare me


I suspect a trap........

[omnirook]

This is an example of what many people think Americans are like.

http://casurf.accela.jp/Fat%20american.JPG

(Fox News running in background, burp and ass scratching as introduction) "Those fucking Iraqis are a threat to our national security and our lifestyle. Where's my beer?"

This is of course an exaggeration and a negative stereotype, but please tell it is mostly wrong, because otherwise, :horror:

Some Americans are like that; some Americans are not.

A lot of people forget - do not keep in mind - that the United States was founded by a group of people who were essentially English. Though those Americans w/an English ancestry have long since become a minority - Germans, Irish, and Italians outnumbering the English by far - the United States has remained fundamentally English in character. Why? First come, first serve - and first get to form the elite. The American elite have always been WASP's - white Anglo-Saxon Protestants. Point? The American elite have always shared the globe-trotting, world-looting proclivities of the English elite. All other Americans have always shared the xenophobic, stay at home, this is the best place proclivities of the English "folk." This creates a distorted picture of both the English and the Americans. Foreigners see and meet and deal w/the rapacious upper crust. Only those foreigners who go to England or who come to the United States get to meet the ordinary people, the "salt of the earth" who are not brutal, who do not want to rape and loot and sack and pillage. When finally the Irish and the English ordinary folk got a chance to know each other, they were startled to find out that they had a lot more in common than either would previously have believed ...

I find it astonishing that anyone in America continues to believe the "democracy" and "equality" and "justice" and "truth" and "freedom" crap any more. This country was founded by rich men who did their best to set up a paradise for rich men. Were it not for a few of those rich men having consciences - had not the richest of the rich men been Thomas Jefferson - then this country would never have had a Bill of Rights or any of the other luxuries - yes, luxuries! - that Americans have long taken for granted. But the burning, itching desire to quash freedom and choice and the right to say "no" for the poor man has been there from the get. All that we have now are the empty, harmless forms. It does not matter what anyone in America says or does, the ruling elite will have their way. Proof? You can start w/the healthcare reform that the Clinton Admniistration tried and move on until you bang into the last midterm election - every Republican could have been tossed from office. Every seat in Congress could now be occupied by Democrats - but we'd still be staying in Iraq. The handful of Americans who truly count want us there for whatever reason - reasons at which we can only guess - so there we will stay, no matter what.

[Tayshaun]

This is coming from someone who's country sided with the Nazis during WWI and WWII and think good cuisine is eating rotten herring......

You guys are bitching cause you wish you doing the invading, but riding the nazi coat tails didn't work out. Don't hate the playa hate the game.


Nazis during WWI? You are rewriting History there.

Yes, Sweden did implicitly collaborate during WWII and their pacific stance is sometimes artificial. Bah, I was not trying to do a culture or country competition here. Every country has something condemnable and stereotypes exist for every culture. I was just pointing out what the stereotype is for Americans.

Anyway, congrats for the typical and expected "in your face" response :theclap:
It's too bad that it is not possible to say what the negative stereotype is without it being taken as an insult or a personal attack...

[meanlittlechimp]

Nazis during WWI? You are rewriting History there.

Yes, Sweden did implicitly collaborate during WWII and their pacific stance is sometimes artificial. Bah, I was not trying to do a culture or country competition here. Every country has something condemnable and stereotypes exist for every culture. I was just pointing out what it was for Americans.

Anyway, congrats for the typical and expected "in your face" response :theclap:
It's too bad that it is not possible to say what the negative stereotype is without it being taken as an insult or a personal attack...

You're supposed to come back at me, or it takes all the fun out of it. Damn Swedes with your homogeneous paltry population. 8 million toeheads? That's not a country, that's a joke.

[Dark Razor]

This is coming from someone who's country sided with the Nazis during WWI and WWII and think good cuisine is eating fermented herring......

You guys are bitching cause you wish you were doing the invading, but riding the Nazi coat tails didn't work out.

Don't hate the playa, hate the game.

Hey, I am eating fermented herring too! And no, such stereotypes do not exist because people are jealous of what mighty asskickers you are :nono:.

[Tayshaun]

You're supposed to come back at me, or it takes all the fun out of it. Damn Swedes with your homogeneous paltry population. 8 million toeheads? That's not a country, that's a joke.

You really want me to try? :devil:

meanlittlechimp, you validate the stereotype of the American with your avatar of a chimp holding a gun, probably an unconscious representation of your peers.

Don't count on me to go on... I don't particularly enjoy it. Sorry if I'm no fun.

[meanlittlechimp]

Hey, I am eating fermented herring too! And no, such stereotypes do not exist because people are jealous of what mighty asskickers you are :nono:.

That's right! We do kick ass! Do you think going into Panama was easy? El Salvador? Those countries are lot bigger than they look on the map! It takes a pretty bad ass country to do that. Vietnam? Ok, ok, everyone has an off day, who thought napalming rice farmers would be that hard?

We got all those damn indians though, talk about working up a sweat. Godless indians with their silly feather hats. No wonder Jesus didn't visit them and teach them about heaven or the concept of private property, sharing is so gay. We showed them the power of the Lord and the good book! Only a nation of pure genius would think to infect blankets with small pox to pass out as gifts, after those dumbasses taught us how to grow corn. You guys are just jealous you didn't think of it first. I give thanks every year while I stuff my face with turkey and cranberry sauce.

Thankfully we're civilized and are a nation filled with Christian spirit. Don't know why their suicide rates are so high, when we gave em those really nice reservations in the desert and sometimes throw in plumbing! We show our respect for their culture and paint their faces on baseball caps and football helmets! We tell our kids all about them when we do the tomahawk chop at the Redskins game! (insert chucking spears at the New York Niggers game or making the chinky eyes move at the Cleveland Chinks game) and they're still not happy? What can you do? Next thing they'll want is a museum or something - like it was a holocaust or something. jeezzz some people..... Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[Dark Razor]

That's right! We do kick ass! Do you think going into Panama was easy? It takes a pretty bad ass country to do that.

It was a lot of work killing all those damn indians too. Only a nation of geniuses would think to infect blankets with small pox to pass out as gifts, after those dumbasses taught us how to grow corn. You guys are just jealous you didn't think of it first. I give thanks every year while I stuff my face with turkey and cranberry sauce. We gave em those really nice reservations! We're not all bad.

Ah well, at least we had our fair share of ass-kicking in the past, if only you would have stayed out of it, then we would now rule ze world! However we have learned our lesson well and are now patiently waiting for just the right moment in history.. muhahahaha.

[Architectonic]

You fell into my trap!! the US invaded Canada in 1812 and 1866.

Where did I say I disagreed?

Anyway, I don't care much about puny weak countries like the USA or Canada.

PS, back in the 19th century they were directed against Britain, rather than the Canada we know and love today. Also, War Plan Red was just a planning exercise.

[dubbeltop]

Fewer Americans See Iran as Main Enemy: Angus Reid Global Monitor (http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/index.cfm/fuseaction/viewItem/itemID/14852)

My thoughts - WTF?!?!?!? 21% of Americans see Iraq, with it's pro-American, secular government, as their main enemy, while only 11% said North Korea.

Am I missing something?

Yes, they are losing the war and thats something to think about right know(hence the choice for Iraq) , anyway polls are for people who can't face the facts or read....they are one step above from reading cartoons.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_choice

[cafe]

I don't know who our greatest enemy is, but China is our greatest threat. And we are paying for the weapons that they may one day aim at us from our own coffers. We are doing it at the expense of jobs at home and doing it knowing the environmental damage and human rights violations they commit.

The idiot ruling class is so short-sighted and that is the primary reason that I hate them.

[Wiki]

Americans scare me too. We were attacked by Saudi extremists, but the nation is a 'friendly' so we took it out on a less than innocent bystander.

I think a large number of people snuck right by the Dept. of Homeland Security and decided to stay. Who facilitated this? That is my enemy.

The real question is how long before Israel attacks Iran, and how much money do we secretly print to fund that?

[Helios]

Everytime I see this thread it reminds me of David Bowie


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slKNd22GGaQ

[meanlittlechimp]

I don't know who our greatest enemy is, but China is our greatest threat. And we are paying for the weapons that they may one day aim at us from our own coffers. We are doing it at the expense of jobs at home and doing it knowing the environmental damage and human rights violations they commit.

The idiot ruling class is so short-sighted and that is the primary reason that I hate them.

Let's not get too high and mighty. We're telling them not to pollute while we've already been responsible for the majority of carbon emissions that's already damaged the planet, and we are still by far the world's largest polluters. Not to mention they're polluting to MANUFACTURE products, we pollute to drive SUVs, and have spinners on our wheels (made in China) to show off our bling.

Yeah they've committed some human rights violations, but since WWII we've been responsible for killing more innocent civilians than any other 5 countries combined, including China. At least America is still #1 at something..

[meanlittlechimp]

Everytime I see this thread it reminds me of David Bowie


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slKNd22GGaQ

Wow, David Bowie fell off, what a crap song.

[nfinityi]

Fewer Americans See Iran as Main Enemy: Angus Reid Global Monitor (http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/index.cfm/fuseaction/viewItem/itemID/14852)

My thoughts - WTF?!?!?!? 21% of Americans see Iraq, with it's pro-American, secular government, as their main enemy, while only 11% said North Korea.

Am I missing something?
Yes. I think you're missing the fact that the vast majority of the American public has no idea WTF they're talking about. I really wish I had the video in which everyday Americans were asked to name who they think the United States' biggest enemy is, and then point it out on a map. Oh God. If ever I've been ashamed to be American, it was then.

[demagogic_schizoid]

Can't believe no one called me on the Canada thing.

I thought, if you're going to blame the fall of Allende on the US, you might as well slip Canada in too.:p

and yes, I have read the online reproductions of the CIA documents about the Us destabilization campaigns. But I've also read analyses with a wider scope which look at all the factors involved, and it seems to me that losing the support of all the powerful interests in Chilean society was the main reason Allende was toppled - the US pretty much wasted their money.


Nazis during WWI? You are rewriting History there.

Yes, Sweden did implicitly collaborate during WWII and their pacific stance is sometimes artificial. Bah, I was not trying to do a culture or country competition here. Every country has something condemnable and stereotypes exist for every culture. I was just pointing out what the stereotype is for Americans.

Anyway, congrats for the typical and expected "in your face" response :theclap:
It's too bad that it is not possible to say what the negative stereotype is without it being taken as an insult or a personal attack...


Maybe he just pointed out the negative stereotype of your people, and you took it as an attack. It never ceases to amaze me how Americans are expected to have limitless patience and accept the criticisms of them by the whole world, whilst if you say such things about another country it's "in your face" or somehow insulting.


Ah well, at least we had our fair share of ass-kicking in the past, if only you would have stayed out of it, then we would now rule ze world! However we have learned our lesson well and are now patiently waiting for just the right moment in history.. muhahahaha.

dude we kicked your ass in WW1 without any American help, and we even had the disadvantage of having La France on our side. You people couldn't win a war if your lives depended on it - so please don't try again, you know how it'll end.:peep:

[meanlittlechimp]

Yes. I think you're missing the fact that the vast majority of the American public has no idea WTF they're talking about. I really wish I had the video in which everyday Americans were asked to name who they think the United States' biggest enemy is, and then point it out on a map. Oh God. If ever I've been ashamed to be American, it was then.

It's true, Europe and other countries have access to much better media outlets. The American press is horrible and you really have to dig, to find out what's going on here. It takes a considerable amount of effort. I stopped some time ago reading with the same fervor, because it got too depressing.

Also, I think people were sick me yelling at them.

[meanlittlechimp]

dude we kicked your ass in WW1 without any American help. you people couldn't win a war if your lives depended on it. Also, please don't try again, you know how it'll end.:peep:

American efforts in WWII are a bit overstated. Besides providing munitions (which of course was critical) we were basically Johnny come latelys. The Russians defeated the German Army. You just have to look at the death tolls: Russia lost 20 million. The Germans 10 to 12 million. The American lost 400,000 (mostly in the Pacific theatre). At best we were responsible for less than 5% of total German casualties. And that was mostly from firebombing defenseless civilians in Dresden and a few other cities. That's probably when we first developed a taste for aerial bombing, so nice when they can't hit ya back!

We gave 'em some bullets and said go get em, and hid in the back until the real fighting was over.

[Dark Razor]

dude we kicked your ass in WW1 without any American help, and we even had the disadvantage of having La France on our side. You people couldn't win a war if your lives depended on it - so please don't try again, you know how it'll end.:peep:

Meh, you had France, all the Comonwealth, Japan and we also had to fight the Russians, and who did we have? the Ottoman Empire and Austria, I wonder why it took you so long to win. I actually dont care about this though :smooch:.


American efforts in WWII are a bit overstated. Besides providing munitions (which of course was critical) we were basically Johnny come latelys. The Russians defeated the German Army. You just have to look at the death tolls: Russia lost 20 million. The Germans 10 to 12 million. The American lost 400,000 (mostly in the Pacific theatre). At best we were responsible for less than 5% of total German casualties. And that was mostly from firebombing defenseless civilians in Dresden and a few other cities. That's probably when we first developed a taste for aerial bombing, so nice when they can't hit ya back!

We gave 'em some bullets and said go get em, and hid in the back until the real fighting was over.

Don't forget the significant arms and grain shipments to the Soviet Union, true they only really kicked in in 42 when the initial assault on Moscow had already failed and later in the winter of course Stalingrad did also horribly fail, but the subsequent general Soviet offensiv would probably not have been possible on this masive scale without American trucks, jeeps, tanks and planes, though this is controversial and I dont have exact numbers right now.

[demagogic_schizoid]

Meh, you had France, all the Comonwealth, Japan and we also had to fight the Russians, and who did we have? the Ottoman Empire and Austria, I wonder why it took you so long to win. I actually dont care about this though :smooch:.

you might not care, but it's history, a perfectly adequate topic of discussion in the "Current affairs and History" sub-forum.

As for having to fight Russia - Germany's historic problem seems to be that it always chooses to fight Russia and Britain/France at the same time. Now I know you can't choose your geography, but how hard could it be to make the effort to suck up hard to one side so they will leave you along to fight the other? The trouble is, Germany's leaders haven't been smart enough. Except for Bismarck, that guy had his head screwed on. A master strategist. I love the way he played the Liberals and got them to support him in the name of unification against various seperatist conservatives, even though his aims were conservative all along. I think if other German leaders had been as smart as him, I might be speaking German today.:ph34r:

[meanlittlechimp]

you might not care, but it's history, a perfectly adequate topic of discussion in the "Current affairs and History" sub-forum.

As for having to fight Russia - Germany's historic problem seems to be that it always chooses to fight Russia and Britain/France at the same time. Now I know you can't choose your geography, but how hard could it be to make the effort to suck up hard to one side so they will leave you along to fight the other? The trouble is, Germany's leaders haven't been smart enough. Except for Bismarck, that guy had his head screwed on. A master strategist. I love the way he played the Liberals and got them to support him in the name of unification against various seperatist conservatives, even though his aims were conservative all along. I think if other German leaders had been as smart as him, I might be speaking German today.:ph34r:

Music would really be shite, if they ruled the world. Thank God that Hitler sent them in to Russia with no winter coats or snow tires. Stupid Meth head.

[demagogic_schizoid]

Music would really be shite, if they ruled the world.

Steady on yank. Nena was good. So are Die Toten Hosen. Stop being so "Amerika Amerika Uber Alles".:ph34r: ;)

[mycroft]

...we are paying for the weapons that they may one day aim at us from our own coffers.

How will they sneak the weapons into my coffers????? :o

[Dark Razor]

you might not care, but it's history, a perfectly adequate topic of discussion in the "Current affairs and History" sub-forum.

As for having to fight Russia - Germany's historic problem seems to be that it always chooses to fight Russia and Britain/France at the same time. Now I know you can't choose your geography, but how hard could it be to make the effort to suck up hard to one side so they will leave you along to fight the other? The trouble is, Germany's leaders haven't been smart enough. Except for Bismarck, that guy had his head screwed on. A master strategist. I love the way he played the Liberals and got them to support him in the name of unification against various seperatist conservatives, even though his aims were conservative all along. I think if other German leaders had been as smart as him, I might be speaking German today.:ph34r:

Actually I like discussing this, I just wanted to show that I dont have any feelings of football style rivalry. As for Bismarck, what I read about him I found quite fascinating as well, I read a book called "The 48 laws of Power" which had a few examples of how he played his cards to get the king to support a strong military and how he changed tactics to confuse the liberals about his motives so he could defeat Austria and establish Prussia as the leading German state. One aspect that was especially important was that unlike many leaders he knew when to stop, and how to consolidate his gains and establish an era of stability. Unfortunaly later Wilhem II was the gung-ho military glorifying type who thought going to war was a cool thing to do.

The main problem with the plan to invade France as I understand it was that it was still based on the 1870 war, but that in the meantime the invention of machine guns and better artillery had tilted the balance towards the defenders, so that rapid offences were no longer possible and the whole thing bogged down. At that point the war was lost for Germany because it turned into a war of attrition which Germany could not win because of it's reliance on ressource imports and insufficient industrial capacity, essentially the same problem that arose when the invasion of the Soviet Union bogged down in WWII, although there it was exacerbated by lots of poor strategic decisions.

I think historicaly the main problem for Germany besides the geography have been British "balance of power" politics, to me it seems German leaders have always dreamed of an agreement with Britain which would allow Germany to rule continental Europe while Britain rules the sea and its Empire outside ouf Europe. And they failed to realise that this is not in Britains interestest and that Britain would do everything to keep France, Germany and Russia as independent land powers and support the losing side if war broke out between them, so that none of those powers can invest sufficient ressources in a navy which could challenge British rule of the sea, because they are committed to have a large standing army to fend of their neighbours.

[demagogic_schizoid]

Actually I like discussing this, I just wanted to show that I dont have any feelings of football style rivalry.

ahem...well...we'll put football aside for now:smooch:


As for Bismarck, what I read about him I found quite fascinating as well, I read a book called "The 48 laws of Power" which had a few examples of how he played his cards to get the king to support a strong military and how he changed tactics to confuse the liberals about his motives so he could
defeat Austria and establish Prussia as the leading German state.

Indeed. If I remember my A-Level History Classes correctly, he got anti-nationalists to essentially support what was a nationalistic Prussian cause. I find the whole era very fascinating, the discourse between free-trade liberals and protectionist, nationalist conservatives, before socialism was a force to be reckoned with. I feel as if in many ways we have come full circle, and with the fall of the Berlin Wall we are again seeing allegiances begin to divide down these lines rather than the cold war lines. Of course it will take a long time, but if you look at the current conflicts happening in the EU, it seems that the strongest anti-market movements are led by conservative interests, ie the anti-Turkey, anti-expansion of the EU in general, pro-CAP camp. But hey, that's just me trying to politicise things again, and I admit it has litttle relevance to the subject we are currently discussing.


One aspect that was especially important was that unlike many leaders he knew when to stop, and how to consolidate his gains and establish an era of stability

Indeed. He was very pragmatic. Bismarck ISTJ, Hitler INFP?


Unfortunaly later Wilhem II was the gung-ho military glorifying type who thought going to war was a cool thing to do.

He was Queen Victoria's nephew I believe. I know for a fact he was an honorary Admiral in the British Navy. He loved the British Empire, and thought he could play "catch-up", but I don't think he understood how deep the roots of the British Empire were, the extent to which it was based on trade and making it in the self-interests of many powerful people in the colonised countries to play along - it didn't happen overnight and it wans't the work of one person. Anyway, he was insane, and after hearing about his childhood (they used to put him a corset, give him electric shocks, and put him on a horse and let it bolt while he fell off, all to correct his poor balance) I don't blame him. Poor guy.


The main problem with the plan to invade France as I understand it was that it was still based on the 1870 war, but that in the meantime the invention of machine guns and better artillery had tilted the balance towards the defenders, so that rapid offences were no longer possible and the whole thing bogged down. At that point the war was lost for Germany because it turned into a war of attrition which Germany could not win because of it's reliance on ressource imports and insufficient industrial capacity, essentially the same problem that arose when the invasion of the Soviet Union bogged down in WWII, although there it was exacerbated by lots of poor strategic decisions.

I must admit I don't know about military strategy. We didn't really get taught the specifics at school and I haven't (yet) read about how those battles were fought, except that they were fought badly.


I think historicaly the main problem for Germany besides the geography have been British "balance of power" politics, to me it seems German leaders have always dreamed of an agreement with Britain which would allow Germany to rule continental Europe while Britain rules the sea and its Empire outside ouf Europe. And they failed to realise that this is not in Britains interestest and that Britain would do everything to keep France, Germany and Russia as independent land powers and support the losing side if war broke out between them, so that none of those powers can invest sufficient ressources in a navy which could challenge British rule of the sea, because they are committed to have a large standing army to fend of their neighbours.

Indeed. We called it "Splendid Isolation" - Britain had no allies as such, foreign policy was to maintain the balance of power in Europe. Still, we were prepared to let Germany have its "place in the sun", but Belguim was just too close to home. Also, we did have a treaty with Belguim promising to defend them if they were ever attacked, and while it may not count for much, Willhelm was stupid to underestimate the effect of such a blatant provocation. I mean, it was obviously an act of aggression towards France, and would any British government seriously tolerate a German empire which streched all the way to the Channel? Especially in light of Willhelm's increased spending on the navy. I don't know if he thought the British would go along with this or not (in fact I believe he was an Anglophile who had no intention of attacking Britain) but I guess he was just too stupid to see how his actions were being construed in Britain. He also gave an interview in The Telegraph (or The Times) where he called the British "mad as march hares" - not a natural diplomat. ESTJ?

PS thanks for making my history A-level come in marginally useful. :) I knew it would one day.

[cafe]

How will they sneak the weapons into my coffers????? :o
:P :rolleyes:

[Dark Razor]

I find the whole era very fascinating, the discourse between free-trade liberals and protectionist, nationalist conservatives, before socialism was a force to be reckoned with.


Yes I find this time period to be fascinating as well, I still need to do more reading about it though, my knowledge is still a little sketchy, I have some books about the time from 1815 to 1933 (which you can order for free from the department for political education :) ), but they are really dry and go into incredible detail on even trivial stuff so that it's hard to stay focused.

But at least it's easier than reading about the Holy Roman Empire, where people seem to only have had six names: Heinrich, Friedrich, Karl, Otto, Lothar and Wilhelm, which was quite annoying when we were going through that period in history classes.




Indeed. He was very pragmatic. Bismarck ISTJ, Hitler INFP?

Could be, though Hitler was probably sociapathic so he might not be typeable.

[songbird36]

How the HELL did this person get into a baby's hospital room at night?!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070311/ap_on_re_us/infant_abducted

[demagogic_schizoid]

How the HELL did this person get into a baby's hospital room at night?!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070311/ap_on_re_us/infant_abducted

I don't think that fits on this thread. I think I see your reasoning in posting it here, but this isn't a thread devoted to just anything scary that could happen in America, it was about one thing in particular subject. Sorry if I caused confusion with the title.

[nittanylion302]

Yes I find this time period to be fascinating as well, I still need to do more reading about it though, my knowledge is still a little sketchy, I have some books about the time from 1815 to 1933


Ahh yes, the Great Game. A time of Boer Wars, British Imperialism, and "The Secret Garden."

[MondoTheFish]

Many Americans are
a.) Stupid
b.) Uneducated
c.) Not INTP

That explains things.. people see that we are at war in Iraq and that soldiers are there so through poor logic.. they think that the Iraqi government is going to kill us all..

[jyakulis]

Fewer Americans See Iran as Main Enemy: Angus Reid Global Monitor (http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/index.cfm/fuseaction/viewItem/itemID/14852)

My thoughts - WTF?!?!?!? 21% of Americans see Iraq, with it's pro-American, secular government, as their main enemy, while only 11% said North Korea.

Am I missing something?


wow thank god cheney never pulled this op out. they already got 26 percent of sheople buying into the fact that iran is a threat.

http://thinkprogress.org/2008/07/31/cheney-proposal-for-iran-war/

god help us! why did it have to be like this? what kind of planet is this that psychopathic murdering killers run everything! :banghead: